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# [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jew_with_a_coin&diff=898388529&oldid=898388207 diff] - As reliable source makes this connection (which is also noted by others sources). Content is attributed. |
# [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jew_with_a_coin&diff=898388529&oldid=898388207 diff] - As reliable source makes this connection (which is also noted by others sources). Content is attributed. |
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I left out content sourced to Tokarska-Bakir's 2019 English language paper, as that is being discussed above. If there are objections to this content - please discuss these one by one, as opposed to mass-reverting back to an arbitrary old version.[[User:Icewhiz|Icewhiz]] ([[User talk:Icewhiz|talk]]) 07:35, 23 May 2019 (UTC) |
I left out content sourced to Tokarska-Bakir's 2019 English language paper, as that is being discussed above. If there are objections to this content - please discuss these one by one, as opposed to mass-reverting back to an arbitrary old version.[[User:Icewhiz|Icewhiz]] ([[User talk:Icewhiz|talk]]) 07:35, 23 May 2019 (UTC) |
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== Immoral contribution by Icewhiz == |
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:''According to [[Haaretz]], murdered Jews were a source of enrichment for Poles who charged high prices for hiding Jews and plundered Jewish property'' - it's a part of the image, which dehumanizes Poles who helped Jews. The righteous didn't ''charge high prices''. The image of ''plundering Jewish property'' is based on ignorance. Jewish property was nationalized by Germany and any plundering of it was punished. Stealing a rag (from Germany, not from a Jew) meant sometimes death. [[User:Xx236|Xx236]] ([[User talk:Xx236|talk]]) 08:18, 23 May 2019 (UTC) |
Revision as of 08:18, 23 May 2019
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Recent edits
I reverted (keeping the constructive caption change, and modifying practice to imagery) as:
- "nonesense"[1] is not a rationale when multiple RSes - e.g. [2] state
"This stereotypical depiction is thus controversial, although it seems quite innocent next to the common and widespread phenomenon of the Zydki – the figures of a Jew holding a coin, thought to be a talisman that brings good fortune and wealth, which has overtaken nearly all other such depictions"
. - [3] - " most likely a self promo" - reported in two independent RSes.
- [4] - " rmv POV, rmv gratuitous stereotyping and ethnic generalizations" - the author is an academic in a relevant field who sees the widespread stereotyping of Jews in Poland relevant to these figurines.
- [5] - "POV COATRACK" - the source - a reliable source - clearly ties the two phenomena together. I clarified the language - diff - to reflect that the source ties this together -
"another possible reason for the existence of the Zydki: It has to do with a newly published book in Poland that is creating an uproar similar to the one that Jan Gross’s book “Neighbors” elicited. The book, “Klucze i Kasa” (“Keys and Money”) details the ways in which Poles got rich off Jews who were murdered in the Holocaust – by plundering property that was left behind, charging exorbitant fees for hiding them, and so on. This may be another underlying reason for the Polish perception of Jews as a source of wealth – they literally enriched them. And paradoxically, their guilt feelings over this are being projected onto the Jews.
.
Icewhiz (talk) 14:41, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
- The figurines do exist but they are not common, and as several sources note, they are a recent phenomenon. The source does NOT "tie two phenomena together". You do. It's a COATRACK for the whole disgusting and racist "Poles are anti-semities" POV into this article. You are, once again, using false edit summaries. My changes were explained, so why do you claim otherwise? WP:ONUS is on you to get consensus and these needs to stay out, also per WP:REDFLAG.Volunteer Marek (talk) 18:21, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
- Please stop following me around, as I requested here. As for your response - reputable NEWORGs and academic experts tie this to Polish antisemitism, your assertion this is "racist" is a personal attack as well as a BLP violation (vs. the cited BLPs in the article) and should be struck. IDONTLIKE is not grounds for removing sourced information. I provided two sources for "common" and "popular" - your personal OR that they "are not common" - is of no value without a source - please provide sources to back up your claims. You did provide a coherent response to points 2,3, and 4 above ("racist" does not cut it). In addition, in your blanket revert you removed new content with the expert views of Erica Lehrer, and Stanisław Krajewski, as well as a newly added section on "Customs and superstitions" - you did not provide a rationale for these 3.Icewhiz (talk) 18:42, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
Extreme POV
The article represents extreme POV and is very selective in use of sources.For example Erica Lehrer is quite positive about many aspects of these(cringy IMHO) lucky charms, and asks not to see them solely as negative.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 15:28, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
- This is a new article. Lehrer doesn't disagree on this being antisemitic, in fact she agrees it is -
"Dr Lehrer agreed that the figurines showing a Jew holding a coin drew on a long history of antisemitic imagery. "It's hard to cleanse the figurines of that no matter how positively some Poles say they intend this image to be. The idea of the moneyed Jew as a sinister character has deep roots in the Christian world."
- [6] - she does however believe that other aspects of this phenomena should be highlighted as well and that the figurines should be displayed from an ethnographic curatorial perspective. If you have sources to expand the article - all power to you. Icewhiz (talk) 15:44, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
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A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion
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Bożena Umińska-Keff
Content from literature researcher Bożena Umińska-Keff has been removed + [7]. The text in the article read:
According to literature researcher Bożena Umińska-Keff , the stereotyping of Jews in Poland is widespread, particularly so in the church. Umińska-Keff sees in the imagery and superstitions surrounding the figurines all the basic elements of antisemitism, and sees the figurines as part of a wider tradition of antisemitic images in Poland (Jewish wizards, Jews making blood from children, Judensau, Żydokomuna, etc.). Umińska-Keff ties the current figurines to the dispossession of the Jews by the Germans and Poles during the Holocaust.[1]
The following in the source supports this: (all in the final section - her conclusion - "JAK POWISI, TO SKRUSZEJE")
"W Polsce najczęściej antysemityzm nie jest rozpoznawany jako antysemityzm, czyli jako własny, wrogi wobec pewnej grupy mit czy zestaw stereotypów. Jednocześnie treści tego mitu są ogromnie popularne i nadal bierze się je za fakty. I tak trwa powielanie mitów oraz stereotypów, aż do poczucia oczywistości, czyli w sumie do braku refleksji, do otępienia. Jedyną skuteczną odpowiedzią na to byłaby edukacja, ale jej nie ma. Za to powielanie stereotypu zachodzi w wielu miejscach, głównie w Kościele. Jedynie z tych powodów wizerunek Żyda z pieniążkiem może w Polsce uchodzić za neutralny. Ale naprawdę jest on wpisany w długi szereg antysemickich wizerunków: jest w nich Żyd kuzyn świni (Judensau), Żyd diabeł, Żyd czarownik, Żydzi wytaczający krew z dziecka, Żyd gruby kapitalista z cygarem, Żyd chudy bolszewik z nożem, Żyd Trocki na górach trupich czaszek, żydokomuna, szczury, robactwo;
google translate:"In Poland, the most common anti-Semitism is not recognized as anti-Semitism, ie as its own, hostile to a certain group of myths or a set of stereotypes. At the same time, the contents of this myth are extremely popular and are still taken as facts. And so it continues to duplicate myths and stereotypes, to the feeling of obviousness, that is, to the lack of reflection, to dullness. The only effective answer to this would be education, but it is not. For this, stereotyping takes place in many places, mainly in the Church. It is only for these reasons that the image of a Jew with a coin may be regarded as neutral in Poland. But he is really inscribed in a long series of anti-Semitic images: a Jew, a cousin of a pig (Judensau), a Jew, a devil, Jew, a wizard, Jews making blood from a child, a Jew a fat capitalist with a cigar, a Jew a skinny Bolshevik with a knife, a Jew named Trotsky in the mountains of corpses skulls, Judaomunas, rats, vermin;
." Są w tym wizerunku i w tym, co należy z nim robić, wszystkie podstawowe elementy antysemityzmu: człowiek, który nie jest zindywidualizowany, jego bezduszna istota, czyli pieniądz, i przemoc, której wolno wobec niego (jego wizerunku) użyć. A tyle już oddał, ten Żyd. Domy po nim zostały i mieszkania, sklepy i sprzęty, często dziadowskie co prawda, świadczące o dziwnym braku pieniążka."
google translate:"They are in this image and in what should be done with it, all the basic elements of anti-Semitism: a man who is not individualized, his soulless being, or money, and violence, which is allowed to him (his image) to use. And that's how much he gave away, this Jew. Houses after him have been left and apartments, shops and utensils, often saddly, which testify to the strange lack of money."
."Może wtedy Niemcy wieszali ich głową w dół i nastawiali kieszenie, no ale nie sami. „Część getta była już po troszeczku zamieszkiwana przez Polaków. Kobiety polskie najspokojniej na świecie robiły już porządki w mieszkaniach, gdzie leżały jeszcze gorące trupy, obierały kartofle przed mieszkaniami, a Żydzi to wszystko widzieli. Ich współobywatele Polacy zakładali nowe, beztroskie życie, zajmowali ich mieszkania, dziedziczyli ich majątek" – pisał Calek Perechodnik, właściciel otwockiego kina, we wspomnieniach z tamtejszego getta zatytułowanych „Spowiedź". Takie było pożegnanie z patronami polskiego powodzenia fiskalnego – upokorzonymi, obdartymi ze wszystkiego. I nie tylko przez hitlerowców, ale bardzo często – jak pisze ironicznie Perechodnik – przez „współobywateli". Upokorzeni, wyrzuceni poza wspólnotę ludzką, zaszczuci, gazowani, rozstrzeliwani, pochowani „w powietrzu/tam nie leży się ciasno" (Paul Celan, „Fuga śmierci"). Tak odchodzili ci władcy polskich sieni i kieszeni. Skoro cały ten kontekst nie ma znaczenia..."
google translate:"Maybe then the Germans hung their head down and set their pockets, but not alone. "Part of the ghetto was inhabited by Poles. Polish women were already doing the cleanest in the world, in the apartments, where the hot corpses were still lying, peeling potatoes in front of the apartments, and the Jews saw it all. Their fellow citizens set up a new, carefree life, occupied their apartments, inherited their property, "wrote Calek Perechodnik, the owner of the Otwock cinema, in the memoirs of the local ghetto entitled" Confession. " Such was the farewell to the patrons of the Polish fiscal success - humiliated, stripped of everything. And not only by the Nazis, but very often - as Perechodnik wrote ironically - by "fellow citizens." Humiliated, thrown out of the human community, arrested, gassed, shot, buried "in the air / there lies not too much" (Paul Celan, "Fuga death. ") So the rulers of the Polish court and pockets have left you, since all this context does not matter ...
.
Very clear, black on white. Icewhiz (talk) 05:14, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
References
- ^ A Jew named Jewish (Polish), Bożena Umińska-Keff, 19 May 2012
- Please read the whole Prechodnik, instead to cherrypick. Are you sure you want me to quote him?
- Millions of Poles were expelled by Germans, their property robbed by German state or individual Germans. Many lost their homes and families.
- carefree life -I understand that Perechodnik envied the Poles, but do you claim that life of Poles under Nazis was carefree? Your statement is immporal and ignorant, black on white.Xx236 (talk) 11:42, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
- Polish-Jewish contacts were defined by economy. Milions of Poles rented rooms or flats from Jews or sold them their agricultural products. Uneducated people ignored economical laws, they personalized them. Millions of peasants had to compete with Jews, better educated, supported by their families or community. People need to explain their failures using conspiracy or magic. Instead to study the economy, crazy left studies gender, feminism and literature. Quoting Perechodnik isn't advanced methodology. Xx236 (talk) 11:54, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
- Here is a description of Otwock life under Nazis.http://mazowsze.hist.pl/files/Rocznik_Mazowiecki/Rocznik_Mazowiecki-r2002-t14/Rocznik_Mazowiecki-r2002-t14-s141-173/Rocznik_Mazowiecki-r2002-t14-s141-173.txt Xx236 (talk) 11:58, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
- Rich people, Jews including, were described by Julian Tuwim, a much more important person than Umińska-Keff. https://cia.media.pl/julian_tuwim_gieldziarze Xx236 (talk) 12:02, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
a symbol of identity ???
Whose identity? Xx236 (talk) 11:18, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
- common and widespread? Perhaps in Kazimierz (Kraków) and Old Town (Warsaw). No market chain sells them. Xx236 (talk) 11:21, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
- The idea of cruel and gready Poles is sold by Israeli media and quoted frequently Icewhiz in this Wikipedia exactly like some Polish artizans sell Jews with a coin. The difference is that many Poles dream to be smart like Jewish bankers but Israeli people hate primitive Poles. So we need a page Bloodthirsty Polish Nazi with an ax, sources JTA, Haaretz, Jerusalem Post.Xx236 (talk) 11:31, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
- It is unclear why you are pointed out "Israeli media" - JTA is not Israeli for instance - it is based in New York, founded in 1917, and reports extensively from Europe and Poland (even reporting from occupied Europe in WWII - e.g. this report from Serbia in 1941 or these reports from Poland - [8][9][10][11]). Vice News isn't Israeli either. Nor The JC, The Times, or a bunch of other sources. As for common and widespread - this is widely reported, including by anthropologists Joanna Tokarska-Bakir and Erica Lehrer. As for "symbol of identity" - per Tokarska-Bakir:
I'm not quite sure where you are getting "primitive Poles" or hate thereof - this isn't in the article - which merely documents this widespread custom as per coverage of it in reliable sources. Icewhiz (talk) 12:03, 22 May 2019 (UTC)this popularity clearly makes it one of the few Polish symbols of identity, with which almost everyone can identify, including the intelligentsia. The ‘Jew with a coin’ is not just another amulet (apotropaion) sold in a market stall. It is a unique, specifically Polish regional product. It can be found not only in houses, but also in legal firms3, banks4, in larger or smaller shops, workshops and studios, offices, mountain lodges, and even in kosher restaurants (such as the ‘Anatewka’ in Łódź), where customers receive figurines like these together with their bill5
- It is unclear why you are pointed out "Israeli media" - JTA is not Israeli for instance - it is based in New York, founded in 1917, and reports extensively from Europe and Poland (even reporting from occupied Europe in WWII - e.g. this report from Serbia in 1941 or these reports from Poland - [8][9][10][11]). Vice News isn't Israeli either. Nor The JC, The Times, or a bunch of other sources. As for common and widespread - this is widely reported, including by anthropologists Joanna Tokarska-Bakir and Erica Lehrer. As for "symbol of identity" - per Tokarska-Bakir:
- It's in texts quoted by you here and in tens of your contributions to Wikipedia pages and discussions. If you don't see your hate, you may consult an expert, I'm your victim. Xx236 (talk) 12:08, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
- As you know typical Polish restaurants are Kosher and Tokarska-Bakir is a reliable source. Icewhiz, be sometimes critical. Not any glittering trash is made of gold.Xx236 (talk) 12:17, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
- Three texts about Tokarska-Bakir's manipulations. http://kompromitacje.blogspot.com/p/spis-tresci.htmlXx236 (talk) 12:19, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
- Most Polish restaurants are very not Kosher. However, some Kosher restaurants do exist. Anatewka in Lodz (which Tokarska-Bakir mentions) - website - even has a figurine in their website. Images of figurines from there abound on the net - [12][13][14][15][16][17][18][19]. Ignoring pictures for a moment - multiple reliable sources report on figurines there - e.g. - this book, or this book. This is really quite easy to verify. Icewhiz (talk) 12:37, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
- As for quotations from WP:RSes - please take them up with the sources, I merely summarize what is available.Icewhiz (talk) 12:40, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
Tokarska-Bakir
The polish version of the source doesn't say anything about the popularity of the figurines, now or in the 90s. Mostly, it's about dumb shit people say on the internet (whoa! Who knew people said dumb shit on the internet). The English version appears to be a clumsy translation by... somebody... of the Polish, but it has that extra paragraph about the 90s. Is that even written by Tokarska-Bakir or is it one of those people on the internet taking their own initiative? Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:55, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
- The 2019 English paper is not a translation of the 2012 Polish - it is an updated version by Tokarska-Bakir with additional findings (it does, however, contain much of the analysis that is present in the linked Polish paper). It is listed on AAPJS as authored by Tokarska-Bakir, 2019 and is listed at pan-pl.academia.edu/JoannaTokarskaBakir/Papers as well. I will note that Tokarska-Bakir has been giving talks in English on the subject (e.g. at Indiana University) and has also published a chapter in this 2014 dual-language English/Polish book (every chapter there, in my understanding, is in both languages) - Lucky Jews: Poland’s Jewish figurines (amazon) - From the versions I do see, I suspect that each one here in the chain (2012 in Gazeta, talks, 2014 English/Polish in the book, and 2019 paper) is based on the previous works with updates (as is common when a scholar writes on the same topic over the years). Icewhiz (talk) 06:46, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
Emaus Easter fair
I had to check the term, 99% of the readers won't understand it. The fair is organised in Kraków only, which puts the description into Kazimierz context. Kazimierz was a Jewish quarter and now it is business - souvenirs, kosher restaurants, probably the biggest Jewish business in Poland. Kaqzimierz is a Disneyland, has no connection with real Poland.Xx236 (talk) 05:46, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
- Tartakovsky's text starts with Cracovie - Kraków. Kraków is one region, Polańczyk a second one, of many creating Poland. California is a part of the USA but some parts of the USA are cold and wet.
- Polańczyk is a spa village, not a real village. Xx236 (talk) 05:49, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
Unexplained content removal
While content sourced to Tokarska-Bakir's 2019 English language paper has been challenged above - Talk:Jew with a coin#Tokarska-Bakir, the mass-removal (seems like a blanket revert to an old version? The revert also broke formatting fixes to a raw url (which were added here by MyMoloboaccount, and fixed here) in these two edits of content was unexplained. Therefore, I've restored the following content, due to the rationale below:
- diff - as the content is sourced to multiple reliable sources (NEWSORGs and academic sources).
- diff - as the content is sourced to reliable sources, including The Art Newspaper which specialized in art - the topic of this article being folklore and falling under that topic. Additional sources covering this are available in Polish and Hebrew. uninvlved input at RSN was to include.
- diff - As Erica Lehrer presents both sides of the coin at length - she presents how this is viewed as deeply offensive by jews and others, while also presenting how Polish common people view this is a harmless good luck charm and how the artisans treat this with love and care. I also fixed the reference.
- diff - As reliable source makes this connection (which is also noted by others sources). Content is attributed.
I left out content sourced to Tokarska-Bakir's 2019 English language paper, as that is being discussed above. If there are objections to this content - please discuss these one by one, as opposed to mass-reverting back to an arbitrary old version.Icewhiz (talk) 07:35, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
Immoral contribution by Icewhiz
- According to Haaretz, murdered Jews were a source of enrichment for Poles who charged high prices for hiding Jews and plundered Jewish property - it's a part of the image, which dehumanizes Poles who helped Jews. The righteous didn't charge high prices. The image of plundering Jewish property is based on ignorance. Jewish property was nationalized by Germany and any plundering of it was punished. Stealing a rag (from Germany, not from a Jew) meant sometimes death. Xx236 (talk) 08:18, 23 May 2019 (UTC)