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::::::You keep talking about dictionary meanings as though that were the only thing that mattered. How about the definition of ''occupied territory''? How is that less relevant to Jerusalem's status than the proclamation, rejected by every other competent party, by one state? <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">'''[[User talk:Nableezy|<font color="#C11B17">nableezy</font>]]''' - 17:10, 9 November 2012 (UTC)</small> |
::::::You keep talking about dictionary meanings as though that were the only thing that mattered. How about the definition of ''occupied territory''? How is that less relevant to Jerusalem's status than the proclamation, rejected by every other competent party, by one state? <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">'''[[User talk:Nableezy|<font color="#C11B17">nableezy</font>]]''' - 17:10, 9 November 2012 (UTC)</small> |
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:::::::Good examples of extraneous [[red herring]]s. As far as I can tell, the definition of a capital (i.e., what makes a capital a capital) does not depend on either criterion (occupied/non-occupied status, universal approval). I didn't know that editors were allowed to change the meanings of words as they please. [[User:Hertz1888|Hertz1888]] ([[User talk:Hertz1888|talk]]) 21:49, 9 November 2012 (UTC) |
:::::::Good examples of extraneous [[red herring]]s. As far as I can tell, the definition of a capital (i.e., what makes a capital a capital) does not depend on either criterion (occupied/non-occupied status, universal approval). I didn't know that editors were allowed to change the meanings of words as they please. [[User:Hertz1888|Hertz1888]] ([[User talk:Hertz1888|talk]]) 21:49, 9 November 2012 (UTC) |
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::::::::No, that isnt extraneous and isnt a red herring. You, and a number of other editors who are adamant about the word ''capital'' being used on the basis of the definition of the word, have quite the history of ignoring other words that have plain meanings. You support what you like, and oppose what you dont. It has exactly squat to do with what the dictionary says. You ignore things that dont toe the Israeli party line, and support to the hilt what does. Thats fine, lots of people are like that. But at least drop the act here that this isnt what it so clearly is. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">'''[[User talk:Nableezy|<font color="#C11B17">nableezy</font>]]''' - 01:21, 10 November 2012 (UTC)</small> |
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::::::Editors accepting sources that present the information in a certain way, as a statement of fact, and ignoring sources that do not present this information as a statement of fact is wrong. It's wrong because it is inconsistent with our content rules. When editors stop doing that, we might be able to address this issue properly. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">'''[[User:Sean.hoyland|<font color="#000">Sean.hoyland</font>]]''' - '''[[User talk:Sean.hoyland|talk]]'''</small> 18:16, 9 November 2012 (UTC) |
::::::Editors accepting sources that present the information in a certain way, as a statement of fact, and ignoring sources that do not present this information as a statement of fact is wrong. It's wrong because it is inconsistent with our content rules. When editors stop doing that, we might be able to address this issue properly. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">'''[[User:Sean.hoyland|<font color="#000">Sean.hoyland</font>]]''' - '''[[User talk:Sean.hoyland|talk]]'''</small> 18:16, 9 November 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::::Interesting. So if, for example, I were to provide sources that do not present as fact that the [[State of Palestine]] is a state, or that actually say it is not a fact, you'd support changing the lead of that article? Do let me know, maybe we'll do a test case over there. [[User:No More Mr Nice Guy|No More Mr Nice Guy]] ([[User talk:No More Mr Nice Guy|talk]]) 20:35, 9 November 2012 (UTC) |
:::::::Interesting. So if, for example, I were to provide sources that do not present as fact that the [[State of Palestine]] is a state, or that actually say it is not a fact, you'd support changing the lead of that article? Do let me know, maybe we'll do a test case over there. [[User:No More Mr Nice Guy|No More Mr Nice Guy]] ([[User talk:No More Mr Nice Guy|talk]]) 20:35, 9 November 2012 (UTC) |
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Revert by Tritomex
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
- The result is no consensus for the change introduced by Dailycare. This discussion is long, convoluted, and has taken place against the backdrop of other ongoing discussions on this page which make arriving and a productive conclusion difficult. However, I have taken all viewpoints into consideration, and when disregarding those which are irrelevant, I can see that there is some weak support for the current status quo.
To start, Dailycare's initial edit was made with the edit summary "after discussion on talk". However, discussion on this page has been far from clear. I feel it is troublesome to unilaterally arrive at a "consensus" viewpoint by method of disregarding comments from other editors which one deems to be invalid. The arguments in opposition can be summarised as:
- The change introduces unnecessary repetition to an already complicated and difficult-to-read lead, since the controversy over Jerusalem's official status is already amply discussed.
- The sentence in its original form was already balanced, as it states that Jerusalem is not internationally recognised as the capital.
The arguments in support of Dailycare's change can be summarised as:
- Dailycare's original justification that his edit was based on the result of talk page discussions (a claim I find hard to ratify).
- The fact that the edit introduces repetition doesn't matter, as there is already a lot of other repetition in the article and we would need to remove all that too.
I find the first of the arguments in opposition to be valid, if only weakly compelling. I do not find any of the arguments in support to be valid, particularly the second.
The latter half of this discussion derailed into a long-winded discussion about semantics and the morality/legality of Israel's seizure of East Jerusalem. I find this part of the discussion to be irrelevant to the outcome of this discussion, since the sentence in question makes no bold claim about the legal status of East Jerusalem. I find attempts to derail the discussion by speculating what is implied by the sentence to be particularly unhelpful.
For reasons of clarity, I feel it important to declare (to those who do not routinely investigate) that I am not an administrator and as such this is a non-admin close. However, I have no iron in this fire and have never edited in this area before. I have done by utmost to be impartial. Basalisk inspect damage⁄berate 15:33, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
Tritomex reverted an edit of mine here. However the edit summary merely says "no consensus" and "not acceptable" which isn't sufficient, as on the talkpage no substantial policy-based objections to the edit came up in discussion, above. Unless such objections surface here in a couple of days, I'll re-do the edit. Comments along the lines of "I support the current version", "I don't support any change" etc don't carry any weight per WP:CONSENSUS ("The quality of an argument is more important than whether it represents a minority or a majority view. The arguments "I just don't like it" and "I just like it" usually carry no weight whatsoever.") Cheers, --Dailycare (talk) 18:28, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
- You know you had no consensus for that edit. It had exactly nobody supporting it and at least one person objecting to it, and that's putting aside the people who said they think the current version is fine. You do not get to decide if other editors' arguments are valid or not. Luckily for you someone reverted your edit before I saw it but if you do it again I'll be going straight to AE with no further warning. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 18:47, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
- The same goes for Ankh's removal of though not internationally recognized as such. nableezy - 18:58, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
- where is this consensus?--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 19:04, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
- If you dont want to look I wont do the work for you. But the fact that the line has been in the first sentence for two years should help you figure it out. Edits like this should also help you. nableezy - 19:20, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
- You're the one making the claim so you have to support your claim. I did notice you tracked down a bunch of diffs from years ago so I see some work was put it. However those diffs don't really support your claim. I'll remove it now pending support for your claim, of course. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 20:57, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
- I promise you, AE is the next stop. You know full well you have no consensus to remove material that has been in this article for years, and if you do so knowingly then we can see what happens. nableezy - 20:59, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
- You're the one making the claim so you have to support your claim. I did notice you tracked down a bunch of diffs from years ago so I see some work was put it. However those diffs don't really support your claim. I'll remove it now pending support for your claim, of course. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 20:57, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
- If you dont want to look I wont do the work for you. But the fact that the line has been in the first sentence for two years should help you figure it out. Edits like this should also help you. nableezy - 19:20, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
- My edit was proposed long in advance and nobody has yet explained why the repetition is necessary. What does the phrase I removed add more than that which is already mentioned in the 4th paragraph? Ankh.Morpork 19:07, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
- Do you honestly think that any neutral editor who just read the section above would even waste a moment of their life to consider taking what you just wrote seriously? I have not seen one objection to your proposed edit on the basis of anything else but the following: [1] [2]. I don't find this amusing and I can guarantee that any more application of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT will not be addressed through this forum. -asad (talk) 22:44, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
- Isnt it also mentioned in the fourth paragraph that under Israeli law Jerusalem is the capital of Israel? Why didn't you remove that bit of repetition from the first sentence? Oh, thats right, it wasnt about removing repetition, it was about removing what you dont like. I get it now. nableezy - 19:20, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
- I fail to understand why the personal attack is necessary. Ankkmorport doesn't like it as much as you like it. Everyone has ulterior motives except for you. Disgraceful.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 20:44, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
- Personal attack? Preceding all that? Wow. nableezy - 20:58, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
- I don't understand personally why should we have repetition about the status because later the legal matters are thoroughly explained. --Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 21:53, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
- So why should the sentence on it being the capital be in the first sentence? The point is that saying Jerusalem is the capital of Israel is a non-neutral statement, it omits a rather important POV on the topic. So if you want to remove the sentence on it being the capital and just have it in the fourth paragraph then fine. What isnt fine is only removing material that The Greatest State would like to disregard. nableezy - 22:12, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
- I don't understand personally why should we have repetition about the status because later the legal matters are thoroughly explained. --Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 21:53, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
- Personal attack? Preceding all that? Wow. nableezy - 20:58, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
- I fail to understand why the personal attack is necessary. Ankkmorport doesn't like it as much as you like it. Everyone has ulterior motives except for you. Disgraceful.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 20:44, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
- where is this consensus?--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 19:04, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
- The same goes for Ankh's removal of though not internationally recognized as such. nableezy - 18:58, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
Threatening AE here and on another user's talk page multiple times. Knock it of Nableezy. We all know you aren't going to AE since the edit wasn't bad enough to warrant it and you would just get a boomerang. Stop trying to wield it like a big stick since you have successfully used it a handful of times to knock off editors who deserved it. You are next on the chopping block anyways. The proposal a couple sections above is perfect and everyone should chill out and consider how it could be a benefit to the reader. It would also save a lot of bickering.Cptnono (talk) 06:28, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
- Uhh, say the same thing to NMMNG and I might take you seriously. Actually, probably not then either. Your belief on who is next on the chopping block is one of those things in this world that do not matter, even a little bit, to anybody besides yourself. nableezy - 13:19, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
- As I was honored personally in the name of section I feel the need to reflect on few assumptions.
I don't know what entitle anyone to qualify its personal point of view as "substantial" and to disqualify the majority opinion made by six or seven editors as unsubstantial. The evaluation of the "quality of arguments" is beyond any objective measurement and as far as I have noticed no one who opposed changing of current wording seems to be impressed by those arguments. As many editors here I have opposed any change in current wording, especially double negations, based on my assumption that the current wording is already reflecting balanced and neutral position. To in force someones personal view or other motivations on this or any article through force or WP:EW is against Wikipedia guidelines and could constitute WP:VAN --Tritomex (talk) 16:32, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
- Nonsense. This is a line-up parade. The opinion that this is 'neutral and balance' is predictably identified with one set of editors, whose belief is opposed by another set. There has been, in this tiresome rehearsal, only one editor who has tried to rise above the fray and propose creative solutions, successively modifying his proposals to reflect input. Despite this, they were worn down by absurd filibustering. Thus, everything is stalled. If people will not come to some fair adjustment, the lead should remain as it was, i.e., as satisfying no one. No one is replying to the lockstep proposals and votes because they are meaningless, and even arguing here is a waste of time. The only way to fix this, given the lack of goodwill, would be for admins to tell everyone to fuck off, and put in accomplished article outsider FA writers to fix it.--Nishidani (talk) 17:08, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
(outdent) Saying I "knew" there was no consensus for the edit is wrong, since exactly one person commented on the proposal, by opposing it on the basis that, wait for this, it would change the meaning of the sentence. This isn't even remotely a substantial policy-based argument, and therefore doesn't affect the existence or non-existence of consensus in any way. I challenged the user to identify a policy he was referring to, which he failed to do. In this thread, by the way, I currently see exactly zero policy-based objections to the edit. Therefore not only did the edit have consensus to begin with, it still has consensus. Cheers, --Dailycare (talk) 19:37, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
- Interesting theory. We'll have an opportunity to test it at AE if you make that change again. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 20:59, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
- You to, huh? Not to appease Nableezy but simply to mention it to you both that threatening AE over and over again is not helping anything. Aren't you guys suppose to be working together to settle the settlement issue? This talk page is a trainwreck. I'm going to enjoy a sandwich and marvel in the calamity. But that one well thought out proposal above is stil better than anything else that has happened here in years. Can we start ARBIA3 yet?Cptnono (talk) 04:56, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
- Dailycare What you currently see or do not see is your personal issue. Seven editors here do not see that you have a right or consensus here to make changes which you try to enforce above all of us. I have said and I will not repeat my self every time you come back with threats to report someone, or to force upon everyone your personal believes and impressions. Jerusalem is a capital of Israel (Fact) it is not recognized by most of international community as such (Fact) Those two facts function independently from each other and the neutrality of this sentence can be achieved only by combining them. As the first half of sentence may look problematic to you, the second part has even more bases to be challenged by others. This is why the current form is balanced and neutral. --Tritomex (talk) 22:20, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
- Tritomex, is it a fact that East Jerusalem, the part of the city that is across the green line, is part of Jerusalem ? I think we would all agree that the answer to that question is "yes". If "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" is a fact, and East Jerusalem is part of Jerusalem, it follows that it is a fact that East Jerusalem is part of the capital of Israel. But it is not a fact that East Jerusalem is part of the capital of Israel because it is not a fact that East Jerusalem is in Israel. It is the opinion of the State of Israel that East Jerusalem is part of the capital of Israel. Can you see the problem ? There is a contradiction. It's shining brightly. Please can you confirm that you can at least see it ? It seems to me that many editors cannot see it or choose to ignore it, whereas many reliable sources recognize this contradiction and deal with accordingly through careful wording. Sean.hoyland - talk 05:15, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
- Sean.hoyland, Jerusalem was declared capital of Israel in 1950, so this fact has nothing to do with the annexation and extension of Jerusalem city borders in 1980. East Jerusalem had only 6,4 square km in 1967-under Jordanian occupation, which means that if we would fully ignore Israeli Jerusalem law of 1980 we would have an article about a city with 300 000 inhabitants(internationally recognized East+West Jerusalem) and 55 square kilometers. Also we should refer to almost all Palestinian neighborhoods of Jerusalem as villages outside Jerusalem (this is their legal status from 1948 and even from 1967 Jordanian occupation) as they were declared part of Jerusalem unilaterally by Israel, under Jerusalem law. Also such Jerusalem would have only 50 000 Palestinian citizens. However we have article here which use Israeli Jerusalem law referring to the city of more than 800 000 inhabitants and 125 sq.km.
Again, the extension of Jerusalem is as much (Il)legal as the annexation of East Jerusalem, as it is based on same law, which was not recognized by UN or by most of international community. So technically speaking, yes the borders of Jerusalem, its population and neighborhoods, could be as much in dispute as its status. However, the fact that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel predates the 1967 war and this fact is independent from international recognition or negation.--Tritomex (talk) 15:16, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
- You're extremely confused. When Jerusalem was declared the capital in 1950 it was not a declaration that Jordanian Jerusalem was the capital of Israel. (b) there was no formal annexation of Jerusalem in 1980 according to authoritative legal opinion (c) you appear to be wholly unfamiliar with WP:NPOV, which obliges editors to respect neutrality, even those editors, as your above screed shows, who can see only one side, Israel's, to a complex question. Whatever Israel determines as its 'facts', is a partial perspective, and per policy, must be balanced by other perspectives, be they of the international community or the Palestinians. The refusal to acknowledge that there are two perspectives here is getting rather blatant. The policy reads:'This policy is nonnegotiable and all editors and articles must follow it. It's a curiosity that administrators never force compliance with this non-negotiable policy in this area.--Nishidani (talk) 16:30, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
- Tritomex, don't fall into Sean's trap. His assertion that "But it is not a 'fact that East Jerusalem is part of the capital of Israel because it is not a fact that East Jerusalem is in Israel" is nothing more than his opinion. You may have noticed that some editors like to redefine the word "capital" to include all kinds of limitations and conditions that don't actually appear anywhere the word is defined. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 18:43, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
- Wait a second, East Jerusalem is in Israel now? nableezy - 19:28, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
- It's not a trap. What you have done there is assume bad faith. There is no reason to do that. I think you have also misrepresented me. Can you point out where I redefined the word "capital" or any other words such as "Jerusalem", "East Jerusalem", "green line", "Israel", "fact" etc ? As far as I'm aware I'm using all of the words in the same way you or anyone else would use them. Sean.hoyland - talk 11:15, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
- Wait a second, East Jerusalem is in Israel now? nableezy - 19:28, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
- Nishidani I am very much familiar with WP:NPOV and I do adhere to it. I am also sometimes surprised "that administrators never force compliance with this non-negotiable policy in this area" As for example in the case of your main page, where you are narrating solely the Palestinian perspective in a way that is a clear example what WP:NPOV is not.
Please familiarize yourself with the terminological meaning of annexation. [3] Annexation as occupation is unilateral move and an established fact regardless of authoritative legal opinion or the legality of such act. This mean that annexation can be legal or illegal as well. In its terminological construct annexation do not allude or determine the legality of such action, (although it imply to unilateralism) it simply reflect the action without its repercussion. In this way annexation cant be non existing if it happened. What I have pointed out is that this article is using geographical, population data based on Israeli Jerusalem law regarding seize of Jerusalem and its demographic composition. As we have said already everything in this dialogue and there is evidently no consensus I do not see any reason to artificially prolong it. Although I reserve my right to respond I will not take part anymore in the artificial prolongation of this debate especially as I have already stated my opinion on this subject.--Tritomex (talk) 19:46, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
- Assertions count nothing against evidence. You are apparently not familiar with basic editing protocols. You ignore the obligations of WP:NPOV, and now you cite a wiki article Annexation as evidence for a fact, again showing that you are unfamiliar with what all practiced editors know, i.e.,Wikipedia is not a reliable source. You are consistently ignoring policy, and confusing an identifiable political-partisan position with facts. Israel's position is one of several facts, and NPOV requires that in composition, the other "facts" be included in order to avoid passing off one tilted perspective as the only one that counts.Nishidani (talk) 09:17, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
- Tritomex, you rely in your argumentation on what you call facts. This is in fact not in-line with what policy states, since we should rather edit based on what best sources say, than on what we consider to be the facts. However, arguendo, do you think it's not a fact that Jerusalem is the capital under Israeli law? Applying your fact-based theory, it seems that my edit is in fact better in-line with it than the longstanding wording, since it's a noncontroversial, bland and universally non-contested fact that Jerusalem is, under Israeli law, the capital city of Israel. On the other hand, the General Assembly has recently passed, with overwhelming support, a resolution stating that the proclamation of Jerusalem as capital is "null and void". To the extent that you're advancing your fact-based theory as a policy-based objection to the edit, which policy are you referring to? This source, by the way, describes objections to the notion of Jerusalem as Israel's capital already before 1967. --Dailycare (talk) 20:40, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
UN GA has no power by its charta to pass biding resolutions, as such power lies only in the domain of UN SC. As in the previous case mentioned, international recognition, do not change facts such as occupation, annexation, declaration of independence, and facts regarding capital of each state. Political opinion has its dynamics [4] and as I will say this for the last time, if the wording that Jerusalem is not internationally recognized as the capital of Israel (which is in my opinion POV against Israel, due to the abstract meaning of the term "international community" and due to absolutist wording of this claim) is included in leading sentence, the avoidance of further POV could be achieved only by keeping the current form. By inserting double negation, this article would be transformed from good NPOV in to Palestinian political pamphlet. Definition of capital [5] I do not see any connection between the substantial meaning of this term and international recognition of the same. --Tritomex (talk) 22:46, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
- Tritomex, the negation of the statement "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel' is the statement "Jerusalem is not the capital of Israel'. As far as I'm aware, no one has proposed that a negation of the current statement be used. That is not what the vast majority of reliable sources do so there is no reason to do it. Sean.hoyland - talk 17:44, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
- Dailycare, if you will again make a change to a 1RR article after it has firmly and extensively been established that there is no consensus for it, as you are aware, I will request you will be blocked. --MeUser42 (talk) 10:46, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
- The level of discussion on this talk page seems to have hit rock bottom. It may be helpful if we all go back to basics: Assume good faith and stick to discussion relevant to improving the article based on policies and evidence. Dlv999 (talk) 12:32, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
The change made by DailyCare was totally unacceptable and was rightly reverted. There is no consensus for such a change and it was obvious that would be the case considering the extensive debates that have been taking place on this page. Strongly oppose any change to the current introduction at this stage. BritishWatcher (talk) 17:31, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
- Reading through this thread, I still see zero policy-based objections to the edit, so it appears to still have consensus. As noted above, saying "no consenus" or "I object" doesn't affect the presence or absence of consensus in any way. In detail, Tritomex, who reverted the edit, has failed when challenged to name a policy he's referring to. A self-revert on his part to restore the edit would therefore be in order. MeUser42, I'm assuming you're genuinely under the impression that consensus is determined by some kind of vote. This isn't the case, and I invite you to read WP:CONSENSUS. Cheers, --Dailycare (talk) 20:17, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
- As there haven't been further entries in this thread, I've requested closure by an uninvolved party to determine if there is consensus for the edit. --Dailycare (talk) 17:23, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
- DC, as you constantly demand "policy-based objections", I'll give you a few. Attempting to misuse, contradict or reinterpret the meanings of terms defined in the dictionary to serve your own agenda appears to violate the policy against original research, and is POV. It must be said again: Israel has designated Jerusalem as its capital, and Israel is governed from there. That much is well sourced. It is not sourced that recognition or approval by any outside party is relevant to what makes a capital a capital. Therefore, adding a modifier such as "under Israeli law" is restrictive and misleading. Repeatedly ignoring, or branding as invalid, arguments that contradict your position, and falsely claiming consensus for a change (or that none is needed), can be seen as disruptive—another policy violated. You recently (11 Oct.) claimed (with astonishment) that an editor objected to your edit on the basis that ("wait for this", you said) it "would change the meaning of the sentence". Strange, I can't find that phrase anywhere in this discussion. However, controversial edits often do seek to change the meaning of a text, and that is indeed the effect of your proposed change. I hope your "uninvolved party" will readily see that the existing text is a proper representation and that consensus to change it is lacking. Hertz1888 (talk) 18:29, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
- The edit says "Jerusalem (...)is the capital of Israel under Israeli law". Which dictionary meaning is violated, and which OR conclusion is drawn? Israeli law does state Jerusalem is the capital, something which is also sourced in the edit. The edit doesn't say that recognition is needed for anything, so we don't need sources for that. You objected to this edit in your comment timestamped 20:06, 2 October 2012 by stating "Adding "under Israeli law" would be restrictive and a major change in the meaning". I'm sure you agree, that isn't a policy-based objection and indeed when challenged you were unable to name a policy that says we can't change the meaning of text in articles. To the extent you seem to me making the same argument again, I challenge you once more to name a policy that says we can't change the meaning of text in an article. Cheers, --Dailycare (talk) 12:33, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
- Ask the same basic questions over and over, you are likely to get the same basic answers. Once again, you can't change the meaning or usage of words as defined in the dictionary and use them as you please. That would be POV and OR. As Jerusalem is both designated by Israel as its capital and where the government institutions are located, it complies with the commonplace dictionary definition of a capital city and is simply the capital. You keep insisting on altering that simple statement with superfluous, limiting modifiers.
- The edit says "Jerusalem (...)is the capital of Israel under Israeli law". Which dictionary meaning is violated, and which OR conclusion is drawn? Israeli law does state Jerusalem is the capital, something which is also sourced in the edit. The edit doesn't say that recognition is needed for anything, so we don't need sources for that. You objected to this edit in your comment timestamped 20:06, 2 October 2012 by stating "Adding "under Israeli law" would be restrictive and a major change in the meaning". I'm sure you agree, that isn't a policy-based objection and indeed when challenged you were unable to name a policy that says we can't change the meaning of text in articles. To the extent you seem to me making the same argument again, I challenge you once more to name a policy that says we can't change the meaning of text in an article. Cheers, --Dailycare (talk) 12:33, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
- DC, as you constantly demand "policy-based objections", I'll give you a few. Attempting to misuse, contradict or reinterpret the meanings of terms defined in the dictionary to serve your own agenda appears to violate the policy against original research, and is POV. It must be said again: Israel has designated Jerusalem as its capital, and Israel is governed from there. That much is well sourced. It is not sourced that recognition or approval by any outside party is relevant to what makes a capital a capital. Therefore, adding a modifier such as "under Israeli law" is restrictive and misleading. Repeatedly ignoring, or branding as invalid, arguments that contradict your position, and falsely claiming consensus for a change (or that none is needed), can be seen as disruptive—another policy violated. You recently (11 Oct.) claimed (with astonishment) that an editor objected to your edit on the basis that ("wait for this", you said) it "would change the meaning of the sentence". Strange, I can't find that phrase anywhere in this discussion. However, controversial edits often do seek to change the meaning of a text, and that is indeed the effect of your proposed change. I hope your "uninvolved party" will readily see that the existing text is a proper representation and that consensus to change it is lacking. Hertz1888 (talk) 18:29, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
- As there haven't been further entries in this thread, I've requested closure by an uninvolved party to determine if there is consensus for the edit. --Dailycare (talk) 17:23, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
- OR and POV-pushing come in when you maintain that embellishment (in this case restrictive language) is called for, rather than the simple, direct statement we have in place now. Israel's capital, not just "under Israeli law". The capital, period, full stop. The recognition question is related because without that factor there is no justification for a restrictive statement and your edit would be pointless. Hertz1888 (talk) 20:08, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
- I repeat my question: which dictionary meaning is violated by saying that according to Israel's laws, Jerusalem is the capital? The Basic Law states plainly that it is, and the edit doesn't say that according to other laws it isn't, so it's not in any way "restrictive" either. (not that using a dictionary like you're proposing is a valid argument to begin with, or that there would be anything wrong in restricting meanings)
- Concerning your claim that Jerusalem is "simply" the capital, I'd like to hear how you square it with e.g. this source which says "While Israel calls Jerusalem its "eternal and indivisible" capital, few other states accept that status." Or for that matter this one, which says "Although it's evident that functionally the city is the Jewish state's capital, even close allies such as Britain say that to give formal recognition would be to legitimise the Israeli occupation of East Jerusalem when talks with Palestinians are meant to decide its status, even if an agreement looks a distant prospect." According to sources Jerusalem is anything but simply Israel's capital. Which brings me to my next point, namely do you think that sources matter to begin with? Cheers, --Dailycare (talk) 10:38, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
- Cherry picking sources to prove a point is not exactly good faith editing. Have you forgotten there are sources that state as fact that it's the capital and none that say it isn't, or do you think that sources that don't agree with the agenda you're pushing here don't matter to begin with? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 19:19, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
- I cited some sources, let's see what Herz has to say about them, and I'm of course also curious to see what his dictionary says about Israel's laws. Concerning your question, no, I haven't forgotten but you do seem to have forgotten that I've addressed that point here. Cheers, --Dailycare (talk) 18:38, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
- Cherry picking sources to prove a point is not exactly good faith editing. Have you forgotten there are sources that state as fact that it's the capital and none that say it isn't, or do you think that sources that don't agree with the agenda you're pushing here don't matter to begin with? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 19:19, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
- OR and POV-pushing come in when you maintain that embellishment (in this case restrictive language) is called for, rather than the simple, direct statement we have in place now. Israel's capital, not just "under Israeli law". The capital, period, full stop. The recognition question is related because without that factor there is no justification for a restrictive statement and your edit would be pointless. Hertz1888 (talk) 20:08, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
- One way or another, we've been over basically this same ground before, all too many times. Along the way I have expressed my policy-based objections as requested, and won't repeat them here. What makes a capital a capital is readily ascertainable, and applicable. Anything further added to the statement in question is obfuscation, and irrelevant. It may be technically correct to say "under Israeli law", but unless you intend to add "and in every other way", or the like, you would be "poisoning the well", because saying "under Israeli law" implies "only under Israeli law", as I'm sure you know or ought to know. Such tendentious errors of omission are not "good faith" editing. What Britain (& other outside parties) may have to say is also irrelevant; they can disapprove, but they cannot make it not be the capital. If it could be shown otherwise, I think it would have been by now.
- You may be willing to misapply or selectively use sources and disregard elementary logic to make a point; I'm not. That does not mean I disrespect the policies on reliable sourcing, as you repeatedly imply by your questioning. Don't bother asking for details or posting more interrogatories for me; I've said all I care to say, and can't spend all my time on this. Hertz1888 (talk) 06:37, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
- Ok, I gather you mean to say that yes, you do believe that sources matter. You don't, however seem to be able to square your claim that Jerusalem would be "simply" the capital with the sources cited that in fact say the whole thing is really rather more complicated than that. In other words, you can't maintain both that sources matter and your "simply the capital" theory. Concerning the "Israeli law" point, the idea there is precisely that the edit doesn't take a side, rather it describes the sides. The edit doesn't say that Jerusalem "really" is or isn't a capital city, it simply states facts that are not in dispute. WP:NPOV states "The tone of Wikipedia articles should be impartial, neither endorsing nor rejecting a particular point of view." The notion that Jerusalem would be the capital is rejected by the international community. It is not disputed or rejected that Jerusalem is the capital under Israeli law. --Dailycare (talk) 18:59, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
- What I can or can't do is not appropriate content for this page. Don't make assumptions about my abilities. Per my point that capital is a well-defined term (one that you keep trying to obfuscate and redefine), the existing simple, direct statement is not a point of view.
- Ok, I gather you mean to say that yes, you do believe that sources matter. You don't, however seem to be able to square your claim that Jerusalem would be "simply" the capital with the sources cited that in fact say the whole thing is really rather more complicated than that. In other words, you can't maintain both that sources matter and your "simply the capital" theory. Concerning the "Israeli law" point, the idea there is precisely that the edit doesn't take a side, rather it describes the sides. The edit doesn't say that Jerusalem "really" is or isn't a capital city, it simply states facts that are not in dispute. WP:NPOV states "The tone of Wikipedia articles should be impartial, neither endorsing nor rejecting a particular point of view." The notion that Jerusalem would be the capital is rejected by the international community. It is not disputed or rejected that Jerusalem is the capital under Israeli law. --Dailycare (talk) 18:59, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
- You may be willing to misapply or selectively use sources and disregard elementary logic to make a point; I'm not. That does not mean I disrespect the policies on reliable sourcing, as you repeatedly imply by your questioning. Don't bother asking for details or posting more interrogatories for me; I've said all I care to say, and can't spend all my time on this. Hertz1888 (talk) 06:37, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
- I ask you again not to keep coming back with further posts directed at me. Hertz1888 (talk) 20:56, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
- Hertz, The problem is, your own personal opinion about what constitutes a capital (and the conclusions about Jerusalem you draw from that opinion), are not supported by what scholars say on the matter. See for instance Daum, Andreas (2005). Berlin - Washington, 1800–2000 Capital Cities, Cultural Representation, and National Identities. Cambridge University Press. p. 31. ISBN 0521841178.
While a seat of government can evolve into a capital - as the case of Washington demonstrates- the distinction can remain quite clear. The Netherlands' seat of government is the Hague but its capital is bustling, commercial Amsterdam, the national cultural center. (p. 31)
- I think it may be useful for you to consider that others that do not share your opinions, or are putting their opinions to one side and simply basing edits (and proposed edits) on what RS have said about the topic of this article are not behaving tendentiously, they are simply following our WP:NPOV policy.
- (Sorry for responding to your post, but if you are going to make comments you have to accept that other editors are at liberty to respond to what you have written). Dlv999 (talk) 21:24, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
- Hertz, The problem is, your own personal opinion about what constitutes a capital (and the conclusions about Jerusalem you draw from that opinion), are not supported by what scholars say on the matter. See for instance Daum, Andreas (2005). Berlin - Washington, 1800–2000 Capital Cities, Cultural Representation, and National Identities. Cambridge University Press. p. 31. ISBN 0521841178.
- I ask you again not to keep coming back with further posts directed at me. Hertz1888 (talk) 20:56, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
- This is how the BBC does it.
- "Israel and many of its supporters regard a united Jerusalem - Israel captured East Jerusalem from Jordan in 1967 - as its undivided capital. Most major powers do not, including the US which, like many other countries, has its embassy in Tel Aviv."[6]
- Note the use of the word "regard" and the unambiguous description of Jerusalem as "united", "undivided" and including East Jerusalem. This is about perspectives not facts. Regarding "What makes a capital a capital is readily ascertainable, and applicable." No it isn't, but that doesn't matter, because more importantly, an argument/objection based on a dictionary definition of a word like capital isn't a policy based argument, it's a policy violation, so we can forget about that. These dictionary based synthetic arguments have never been and never will be relevant to this dispute. They need to be put aside so that people can focus on how sources deal with Jerusalem. Putting the dictionary based OR aside doesn't change anything in the sources that deal with Jerusalem, so it's no loss to anyone. Sean.hoyland - talk 14:31, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- This is how the BBC does it.
Neutrality tag
It is clear that some still have problems with part of the introduction, so the neutrality tag is going to have to remain in place for some time. I think it should therefore be put in the correct location, it is the whole of the sentence "is the capital of israel, though not internationally recognized as such", that is disputed. Not just the first part of it. So the neutrality tag should be placed to cover the whole part of the sentence that this dispute is over. BritishWatcher (talk) 17:42, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
- No, there is a specific NPOV issue with the claim that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, which is presented as fact, when it is only one of several viewpoints that have been published in RS. Some RS refer to this as a "claim" or "designation" by Israel, not as a fact. Until that issue is resolved the tag should remain in place for that specific claim. Dlv999 (talk) 17:49, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
- I fully agree with British Watcher and I already pointed this out. The current form represent disruptive editing. Also there is a NPOV issue with the abstract wording of "internationally recognized as such" this should be replaced with UN GA, as international community represents everyone, and as this discussion is going to be prolonged I am preparing to formally challenge the neutrality of this claim --Tritomex (talk) 17:58, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
- I would make over 50 edits to this page if I thought a few of them might stick, on issues regarding what I see as its non-neutrality, which applies to the whole article. The tag applies to the whole article. The Jordanian exclusion of Jews from sites and their destruction of Jewish buildings is not balanced by the fact that immediately post 1967 several thousand Jerusalem Arabs had their homes demolished, the Mamilla graveyard is being destroyed, the whole Muslim and Byzantine period is systematically dug through in archeological excavations to showcase the putative capital of the theoretical kingdom of David, the Mughrabi quarter and its medieval mosques were destroyed, and rules disallow Palestinians under 45 from praying on Friday at the Temple Mount, harsh restrictions make West Bank access to Jerusalem (except this summer) extremely difficult. Two sides of the one coin, only one of which is displayed, etc.etc.etc.etc. The UNGA bit is rubbish, again. We write to sources (Sally J. Cummins (ed.) The international community does not recognize Jerusalem as the capital of the Jewish state, Digest of United States Practice in International Law. 2006 International Law Institute, Washington 2008 p.537, to cite one of hundreds of sources). There are NPOV problems all over the article. --Nishidani (talk) 20:08, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
- Nishidani What you are promising here is nothing less than edit warring and more POV, in unbalanced one sided way of editing. Would you for example mention the massacre of Jewws in 1843,1929 or 1936, the fact that 38 000 ancient Jewish tombs were destroyed between 1948-1967 or that 58 out of 59 synagogues in Jordanian occupied part of Jerusalem were destroyed and desecrated while Jews who were close to 70% of Jerusalem population in 1948 were (as the Palestinians from other section) expelled from Old City? Also where are the facts regarding the destruction of Herodian buildings on Solomon Stables section of Temple Mount in 2007 where ancient Israelite, Hasmonean, Ptolemaic and Herodian artifacts were systematically destroyed by Islamic Waqf and dumped as garbage to the Kidron Walley. Would you mention dozens of suicide bombings in Jerusalem which killed or wounded hundreds of innocents, including children. Would you like to include to this article some of the most important archeological places in Jerusalem like Hezzekiah tunnel, the Broad wall, Siloam Inscription, Israelite tower, ancient tombs, Second Temple period tunnels and buildings, or you are interested only to present the Palestinian issue from 1948 and from 1967? I have nothing to do with Israel or with region personally, I live far from it, however I will protect here and elsewhere the neutral and balanced approach toward Israeli-Palestinian conflict and I fell obliged to protect also the right of Israel to be equably treated and presented as the Palestinians are. Considering the source you have mentioned it is fine as much as it is the source regarding Jerusalem as Israels capital.--Tritomex (talk) 00:12, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
- I would make over 50 edits to this page if I thought a few of them might stick, on issues regarding what I see as its non-neutrality, which applies to the whole article. The tag applies to the whole article. The Jordanian exclusion of Jews from sites and their destruction of Jewish buildings is not balanced by the fact that immediately post 1967 several thousand Jerusalem Arabs had their homes demolished, the Mamilla graveyard is being destroyed, the whole Muslim and Byzantine period is systematically dug through in archeological excavations to showcase the putative capital of the theoretical kingdom of David, the Mughrabi quarter and its medieval mosques were destroyed, and rules disallow Palestinians under 45 from praying on Friday at the Temple Mount, harsh restrictions make West Bank access to Jerusalem (except this summer) extremely difficult. Two sides of the one coin, only one of which is displayed, etc.etc.etc.etc. The UNGA bit is rubbish, again. We write to sources (Sally J. Cummins (ed.) The international community does not recognize Jerusalem as the capital of the Jewish state, Digest of United States Practice in International Law. 2006 International Law Institute, Washington 2008 p.537, to cite one of hundreds of sources). There are NPOV problems all over the article. --Nishidani (talk) 20:08, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
- No need to protest one's absolute neutrality while invariably editing or commenting over many pages from an uninformed and identifiable POV angle on one topic. People can read, you know. In fact the problem here is reading, and I don't mean only RS books, whose use in an article like this should account for 99% of the references (make an analysis of sources). By reading I mean stuff like this.
After 1948, since the old walled city in its entirety was to the east of the armistice line, (a) Jordan was able to take control of all the holy places therein, and contrary to the terms of the armistice agreement, denied Jews access to Jewish holy sites, (b) many of which were desecrated. (c) Jordan allowed only very limited access to Christian holy sites.[136] (d) Of the 58 synagogues in the Old City, half were either razed or converted to stables and hen-houses over the course of the next 19 years, (e) including the Hurva and the Tiferet Yisrael Synagogue. (f) The Jewish Cemetery on the Mount of Olives was desecrated, with (f) gravestones used to build roads and latrines.[137] (g) Israeli authorities razed many ancient tombs in the ancient Muslim Mamilla Cemetery in West Jerusalem to facilitate (h) the creation of a parking lot and public lavatories in 1964.[138] (i) Many other historic and religiously significant buildings were demolished and replaced by modern structures.[139] (j)During this period, the Dome of the Rock and Al-Aqsa Mosque underwent major renovations.[140
- If you translate this into 1967, you could write
After 1967, since the old walled city in its entirety was taken by Israel, (a) Israel was able to take control of all the holy places therein, and contrary to international law, expropriated houses and evicted Palestinian residents. Muslims under 45 were denied their right to pray on the Haram on Friday prayer eventually, and were denied access to many areas where they traditionally dwelt in. Two mosques were levelled, in line with a general practice throughout the occupied territories of destroying Muslim religious shrines, which were converted into IDF war memorials, synagogues, yeshivas, in total some 100 mosques where levelled in Palestinian villages, six converted to residential use, sheepo-pens or stables, carpentry shops, storehouses; six serving as museums, bars, and tourist sites,, and two converted in part for Muslims to pray in though banned as places of muslim worship (Benvenisti 2000:289). The Mamilla cemetary was desacrated.etc.
- Neither the first nor the second is anything but grievance writing. The first gives several details of mainly Jewish grievance,(a)(b) (c) (d) (e) (f), and 'balances' this with two generic points (h) (corresponding to (f), and a generic (i). Then you get the concluding but sentence (Jordan and Israel destroyed each others sacred sites, but only Israel allowed its enemy's sanctuaries to undergo renovations.
- This kind of poor writing, the consequence of POV battling, is all over the page.--Nishidani (talk) 08:47, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
- I fully agree with British Watcher and I already pointed this out. The current form represent disruptive editing. Also there is a NPOV issue with the abstract wording of "internationally recognized as such" this should be replaced with UN GA, as international community represents everyone, and as this discussion is going to be prolonged I am preparing to formally challenge the neutrality of this claim --Tritomex (talk) 17:58, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
The introduction is correct, it has nothing to do with point of view and everything to do with facts.--Savakk (talk) 03:18, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
- Introductions aren't 'correct'. They either conform to reliable sources, or balance points of view. You are ignoring that as a contested city, this is all about balancing points of view by meshing what reliable sources which refer us to the positions of Israel, the international community, and Palestinians, say.
- No need to move the tag. It will be removed once the discussion has died and clearly failed to reach consensus, which is not long from now most probably. This is the WP on the matter. The tag only indicates an ongoing discussion. --MeUser42 (talk) 03:32, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
- Nishidani, you are repeating claims thoroughly discussed. In short, the international community is not the definition of the word. It's objections noted, but the language stays the same. Please discuss the matter at the proper thread (after reading it) where it can be in context. --MeUser42 (talk) 03:37, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
- Please learn to write comprehensive English, and avoid vagueness. 'It's' = 'Its', as any kiddie in elementary school learns. Nothing you wrote above says anything, except articulating an opposition.--Nishidani (talk) 08:47, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
- User:Nishidani, I don't understand you. Do you want another topic ban for misrepresenting sources, flouting Discussion page guidelines, and insulting other editors? Because it seems like that's what you want.—Biosketch (talk) 09:51, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
- Please learn to write comprehensive English, and avoid vagueness. 'It's' = 'Its', as any kiddie in elementary school learns. Nothing you wrote above says anything, except articulating an opposition.--Nishidani (talk) 08:47, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
- 'Seems like' introduces what is known as projective wishful thinking. Your three links are meaningless for the cast of intention you attribute to them. And now to Sunday lunch and good company.Nishidani (talk) 10:37, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
- Nishidani, you are repeating claims thoroughly discussed. In short, the international community is not the definition of the word. It's objections noted, but the language stays the same. Please discuss the matter at the proper thread (after reading it) where it can be in context. --MeUser42 (talk) 03:37, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
- Nishidani by inserting your comment in Savakk comment, you have altered the meaning of his comment in way that is unacceptable by Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines. Savakk comment was referring to my previous comment and not to yours, as it looks now, after the insertion you have made. Therefore I ask you kindly to revert.--Tritomex (talk) 11:31, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
Not just the term international community is abstract term but in this case is factually fraud term. All countries that recognized Israel, recognized its institution in accordance with Israeli law. 22 countries have specifically recognized Jerusalem as Israel capital and never revoked this recognition. Although by the latter of international law there is no specific need to recognize the institutions of the state, if the recognition of the state is already done, this countries have did so. What they objected was 1980 annexation of EJ, not the proclamation of Jerusalem as Israel capital. See (Mosheh ʻAmirav,Jerusalem Syndrome: The Palestinian-Israeli Battle for the Holy City, Sussex University Press, 2009 p.27) The term international community in this case is POV.--Tritomex (talk) 12:01, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
- I'm glad you cited that admirable book by Amirav, which I'm familiar with. It serves to kill two birds with one stone
- Biosketch said earlier I was distorting sources, which was nonsense. My source said Israel declared West Jerusalem its capital (Michael Dumper) the prior source just said Israel in 1948 declared 'Jerusalem' its capital. Dumper is correct. The 1948 declaration did not declare that the capital of Israel was partially in Jordanian territory. It declared that its capital was in that part of Jerusalem held by Israel. Amirav again clarifies:-
'In 1948, Al Quds came under Jordanian rule, while the western part of the city, which was declared the capital of Israel, became known as Jerusalem p.21
'what the Ben-Gurion government did in the 1950s when it declared West Jerusalem to be the country's capital.' (p.26)
- In other words, Biosketch accuses me of misrepresenting a source, when the source I added says exactly what I said it did, and a further source, by a Jerusalem policy expert, confirms that when Israel declared Jerusalem its capital, it referred to the western sector. This is what I mean by refusal to look at RS, refusal to compromise when RS clarify terms that are ambiguous. You are all culpable of a stubborn refusal to accept what RS that are not generic, but specific, written by Jerusalemite urban planning experts, or authorities on the city, quite clearly say.
- To address your specific point.
22 countries have specifically recognized Jerusalem as Israel capital and never revoked this recognition. Although by the latter (sic?) of international law there is no specific need to recognize the institutions of the state, if the recognition of the state is already done, this (sic?) countries have did (sic) so. What they objected (sic?=to) was (sic =the) 1980 annexation of EJ, not the proclamation of Jerusalem as Israel(sic=i/'s) capital. See (Mosheh ʻAmirav,Jerusalem Syndrome: The Palestinian-Israeli Battle for the Holy City, Sussex University Press, 2009 p.27)
- It's understandable that your English is somewhat awkward. Unfortunately, this means you are a poor reader of what English books say, which, when added to your frequent WP:OR hermeneutic divagations, makes following your argument a laborious task. One can hardly argue with someone who cites a book and twice capsizes its its evidence and argument.
- You confuse the past present tense (have) with the past tense. Thus Amirav says 24 countries 'agreed to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and transferred their embassies there' (p.26) in the 1950s. He then says 'Twenty-two of the twenty four countries that had previously recognized Jerusalem as the capital of Israel moved their embassies out of the city' following the passage of the Jerusalem Basic Law of 1980.(p.27) The remaining two, Costa Rica and El Salvador, joined the boycott in 2006. So you have utterly distorted your source, and interpreted a withdrawal of recognition by 24 countries in the source into a recognition of Jerusalem as Israel's capital. It is a rather monstrous thing to do, this WP:OR interpretation of Amirav, which changes documentation by Amirav that 24 countries reneged on their recognition of Jerusalem as Israel's capital into 'What they objected was 1980 annexation of EJ, not the proclamation of Jerusalem as Israel capital.'
- Your editing, and arguments here, are troublesome because they are poorly explained, distort sources, and press rather vigorously for 'solutions' that strike many other editors as negligent of WP:NPOV. It's very difficult to sustain a dialogue if this pattern of distortion and neglect continues. Most people indeed seem to have dropped out of the discussion, and I can understand why.Nishidani (talk) 15:33, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
- Actually, the issue of the neutrality of that line is being dealt with partially here, if you are following the details.
- Please move this discussion to the proper thread ('Better Wording'). --MeUser42 (talk) 15:35, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
- I now see what Tritomex is doing. He is, as with his argument about Annexation, also here not looking at sources. He is reading a wiki page, and culling sources from that page without even verifying them independently. In this case, his incomprehensible ref to 22 countries recognizing the country comes from the Jerusalem article before I just now changed it (which used the figures 20-22). He cited Amirav without checking it. This is fundamental to editing. Wikipedia, to repeat what I said earlier, is not a reliable source, and editors should not pretend they have read a source, when all they have done is read the wikipage citing that source.Nishidani (talk) 16:04, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
- Your editing, and arguments here, are troublesome because they are poorly explained, distort sources, and press rather vigorously for 'solutions' that strike many other editors as negligent of WP:NPOV. It's very difficult to sustain a dialogue if this pattern of distortion and neglect continues. Most people indeed seem to have dropped out of the discussion, and I can understand why.Nishidani (talk) 15:33, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
- I think now there is a need for administrative intervention regarding the edits of Nishadani. This is going beyond POV, and misinterpretation. Here is the online editions of the book [7] nowhere the wording "withdrawal of recognition" is mentioned. The relocation of embassies was in protest of Israel annexation of East Jerusalem and there was no "withdrawal of recognition" I do not think that Nishadani do not know the difference between relocation of embassies and withdrawal of recognition. His reacting to arguments shown here by directly and immediately making edits in to the article based on his own believes and by misinterpreting different sources without even looking for any consensus. For example he directly translated "relocation of embassies" in to "withdrawal of recognition" I will not engage myself in further dialogue with him.--Tritomex (talk) 16:46, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
- To all editors: page 49: "24 countries recognized Jerusalem as the capital of Israel" AND all moved their embassies to Jerusalem. Clear indication that the recognition and relocation of embassies are two different process which do not need to be combined and can not be used as synonyms.--Tritomex (talk) 17:12, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
- I asked you where on p.27 does Amirav say what you quoted him as saying in support of your thesis. Now you refer me to p.49. In any caase, you are ignoring with snippets Amirav's context, which I bolded. Secondly, you are engaging in WP:OR which only underlines you are unfamiliar with the topic. It is WP:OR to make an inference, as you are doing, from two distinct passages and then declare thee inference to be either a fact, or what the author thought. Secondly your inference is wrong, as even a slight familiarity with the diplomatic and legal literature will show. It's original research and bad research at that.--Nishidani (talk) 18:15, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
- It's also OR to interpret "had previously recognized" to mean they revoked their recognition. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 18:41, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
- Shlomo Slonim, Jerusalem in America's Foreign Policy, 1947-1997, Martinus Nijhoff.The US Consul General in Jerusalem in 1958 wrote to the State Department ‘Many other countries mark their respect for the internationalization resolutions by establishing embassies in Tel Aviv thus avoiding recognition of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and, by implication, as Israel’s de jure sovereign territory.’ p.186.
- That's an old one I've chosen because it reflects the diplomatic interpretation of those gestuire in the 50s when Tritomex's 24 countries did what they did. There are dozens more that people who make bold to assert inferences should familiarize themselves with before they broach the subject. Everyone in the diplomatic, historical and political world knows exactly what the Security Council of Resolution 478 (1980) on 20 August 1980 asked and how its first and second points led to relocation by states. Not the UN. It was the Security Council by a 14-0 vote. If you don't know the background you can play all the games you like. People are fixated on the lead, and ignore fixing the body of the article. It isn't even true that Costa Rica and San Salvador kept on there till 2006. They originally withdrew, and then reconsidered. There's tons of stuff like that to care for. No one reads articles. They read the leads alone, apparently.Nishidani (talk) 19:27, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
- I asked you where on p.27 does Amirav say what you quoted him as saying in support of your thesis. Now you refer me to p.49. In any caase, you are ignoring with snippets Amirav's context, which I bolded. Secondly, you are engaging in WP:OR which only underlines you are unfamiliar with the topic. It is WP:OR to make an inference, as you are doing, from two distinct passages and then declare thee inference to be either a fact, or what the author thought. Secondly your inference is wrong, as even a slight familiarity with the diplomatic and legal literature will show. It's original research and bad research at that.--Nishidani (talk) 18:15, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
- Tritomex, can you confirm that you understand that that section of the book is talking about West Jerusalem ? When we say "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" are we referring to West Jerusalem ? If so, we should change it to say that. This article is about the whole city though, including East Jerusalem, so when we say "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel", we are referring to the city described by this article, the city "complete and united" that Israel has declared as the capital, which includes both West and East Jerusalem, hence the neutrality dispute. Sean.hoyland - talk 17:33, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
- Of course I understand that Sean. Can you give me the definition of East Jerusalem borders which is not based on Israeli Jerusalem law? If such definition, regarding seize, population, exists we would know what he have to exclude from the current wording. Do you know that A-Tur, Jabel Mukaber,Ras al-Amud Beit Hanina, Beit Safafa,Shuafat, Sur Baher etc are considered part of Jerusalem only based on the same Jerusalem law? So should we than redefine East Jerusalem borders to the recognized boundaries of 1948 and adjust this article in accordance with this, or should we keep this article in factual situation created by Jerusalem law?--Tritomex (talk) 17:53, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
- Well, this article is about the entire city of Jerusalem, whatever that means over its long history. There is an article about West Jerusalem and an article about East Jerusalem. For the PNA, East Jerusalem is part of the Jerusalem Governorate and I don't know what criteria they use to distinguish between city and not-city, but it isn't relevant to the disputed issue here. The dispute is caused by ignoring the green line and stating as a fact that the city described by this article is the capital of Israel including the parts of the city of Jerusalem across the green line. That means we are saying they are in Israel. Think about the consequences of that statement if we cascaded the spatial relations that follow from that statement to other articles. It follows that the Western Wall is in Israel, the entire Old City is in Israel etc. Those are not facts according to RS. We have contradictions in spatial relations between articles. It isn't clear why the people who advocate the statement "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" as an NPOV compliant statement don't do it properly by adding "complete and united" or "including East Jerusalem". What's the problem ? Why not cascade the spatial relationships that inevitably follow from that statement to other articles ? If it is a fact that the city this article is about is the capital of Israel, many things follow from that simply because of topology. Apparently the only people with the balls to make those kind of changes across article space, to say that the Old City is in Israel for example, to explicitly label places across the green line in East Jerusalem as being in Israel etc are so sure that they are right, so sure that "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" is a fact, that they are willing to be blocked and topic banned for it. They might be wrong according to reliable sources but I admire their commitment, consistency and honesty. Sean.hoyland - talk 19:20, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
- Please provide a source that says a capital can only be in territory a country has de jure sovereignty over. Until you do all your assertions are nothing more than your personal opinion. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 20:24, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
- That is an odd request. That line of argument will take you somewhere you don't want to go. We know that a city can be proclaimed/declared/designated/pick-a-word as the capital (and consequently be described by sources as the capital, the proclaimed capital, the declared capital etc) without there being de jure sovereignty over the city or even de facto control. We know that's possible because that's exactly what both Israel and Palestine have done and reliable sources talk about it. We have a source, Israel's basic law, that explicitly states as a fact that "Jerusalem", the subject of this article, is the capital of Israel, and another source, Palestinian basic law, that explicitly states as a fact that "Jerusalem" is the capital of Palestine. Neither case establishes that it is an undisputed objective fact that Jerusalem is the capital of anything to the extent that we can present it to readers as if it is the same as saying 1+1=2. It's obvious that these are not facts but the positions of the parties to the dispute and need to be presented that way. We already know something is wrong here because we have a source, an important source given that it is from one of the parties to the conflict, that explicitly contradicts, or at the very least, calls into question the factual nature of the statement in the lead, and that is without even looking at the thousands of independent reliable sources that deal with this issue in a whole variety of ways. What normally follows at this point, as soon as sources are mentioned, is the policy violating, time wasting, nonsense of using dictionary definitions of the word capital to "prove" that the entire city described by this article is the capital of Israel and only Israel as a matter of fact. This is of course original research and not allowed. But what is worse for me, setting aside the policy violation, is that it's a method that doesn't even work. A city isn't, as a matter of undisputed objective fact, a capital because it matches one, many or all of the attributes dictionaries use in their definitions such as "city...that is the official seat of government in a country...", "city...that functions as the seat of government and administrative centre of a country...", "the seat of government of a country" or whatever. We know this because the method fails for various cases such as the Netherlands. A method only has to produce an invalid result once to know that there is something wrong with the method. Editors surely know this so it really is very odd for editors to try to use a method that doesn't even work to violate a core policy here of all places.
- Please provide a source that says a capital can only be in territory a country has de jure sovereignty over. Until you do all your assertions are nothing more than your personal opinion. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 20:24, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
- Well, this article is about the entire city of Jerusalem, whatever that means over its long history. There is an article about West Jerusalem and an article about East Jerusalem. For the PNA, East Jerusalem is part of the Jerusalem Governorate and I don't know what criteria they use to distinguish between city and not-city, but it isn't relevant to the disputed issue here. The dispute is caused by ignoring the green line and stating as a fact that the city described by this article is the capital of Israel including the parts of the city of Jerusalem across the green line. That means we are saying they are in Israel. Think about the consequences of that statement if we cascaded the spatial relations that follow from that statement to other articles. It follows that the Western Wall is in Israel, the entire Old City is in Israel etc. Those are not facts according to RS. We have contradictions in spatial relations between articles. It isn't clear why the people who advocate the statement "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" as an NPOV compliant statement don't do it properly by adding "complete and united" or "including East Jerusalem". What's the problem ? Why not cascade the spatial relationships that inevitably follow from that statement to other articles ? If it is a fact that the city this article is about is the capital of Israel, many things follow from that simply because of topology. Apparently the only people with the balls to make those kind of changes across article space, to say that the Old City is in Israel for example, to explicitly label places across the green line in East Jerusalem as being in Israel etc are so sure that they are right, so sure that "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" is a fact, that they are willing to be blocked and topic banned for it. They might be wrong according to reliable sources but I admire their commitment, consistency and honesty. Sean.hoyland - talk 19:20, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
- I think the problem for you and everyone who wants to retain this statement of fact are the policies WP:V and WP:NPOV. If you want to make an unattributed statement of fact in this article, it's you who has to prove that the city described by this article, the whole city, is the capital of Israel as a matter of undisputed fact. I don't think anyone here has ever done that, or knows how to do it, and given the nature of Wikipedia's rules and the variation in how sources handle this issue, I don't think it is even possible. There has been a failure to demonstrate that the statement of fact complies with policy. It nearly complies but falls short. Reasonable alternatives that could end this dispute once and for all have been suggested.
- I'm not sure where you think my opinion comes into this. You have said things like this a couple of times without pointing out precisely what you are referring to. Perhaps you mean my opinion that the statement "X is the capital of Y" where X is a city and Y is a "a country or other political unit" implies the spatial relations Y contains X and X is within Y to the reader in Wikipedia's voice. I think that is a reasonable assumption about how readers will parse that kind of statement because that is how things normally work for capital cities. I suppose an exception might be Kinshasa-Brazzaville if the combined name becomes more widely used, 1 city in effect, 2 capitals, both within different countries.
- While you are pondering the next "Please provide a source that says..." question to ask editors, why don't you find a source that says that a city can only be designated as the capital by the country/political unit with de facto control over the city. Perhaps the international community can decide what the capital of Israel is. Perhaps a basket of red herrings can make the decision. Without a source that says they can't, someone could argue endlessly that it's hard to tell and more time would be wasted not just looking at how sources deal with this issue and applying Wikipedia's content rules to it. Sean.hoyland - talk 09:07, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- I gather that the tldr of all that is "no, I can't provide a source". No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 20:24, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
- Nope, you gather incorrectly, but you have reminded me why trying to resolve disputes through discussion doesn't work. Sean.hoyland - talk 12:24, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
- I gather that the tldr of all that is "no, I can't provide a source". No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 20:24, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
- While you are pondering the next "Please provide a source that says..." question to ask editors, why don't you find a source that says that a city can only be designated as the capital by the country/political unit with de facto control over the city. Perhaps the international community can decide what the capital of Israel is. Perhaps a basket of red herrings can make the decision. Without a source that says they can't, someone could argue endlessly that it's hard to tell and more time would be wasted not just looking at how sources deal with this issue and applying Wikipedia's content rules to it. Sean.hoyland - talk 09:07, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
The issue is not just if the wording "not internationally recognised" is accurate or not, the problem is there is still a dispute on this page if that belongs in the opening sentence like that. The entire sentence has some neutrality concerns by people regarding different parts (some on the capital of Israel and some regarding stating something in the first sentence that is already stated more clearly further down the article intro). For that reason the neutrality tag warrants encompassing both points. At present the tag position suggests the fact Israel is the capital isnt seen as neutral, yet the next part of the sentence is entirely accepted. That is not the case.. Clearly putting the tag at the end of that part of the sentence still encompasses the fact the whole issue arond Jerusalems status has concerns. Its the only reasonable wayto be balanced. Of course ideally as there is no consensus for a change, no tag should be kept there. Most oppose the changes a small number of editors are demanding.BritishWatcher (talk) 20:21, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
POV tag on lede
I've added a tag to the lede section. Within the first paragraph, the lede needs to represent both the Palestinian and Israeli view in order to remain neutral, given the fact that the "UN and most countries do not recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital." Here is what was reverted:
Jerusalem (/[invalid input: 'icon']dʒəˈruːsələm/; Template:Lang-he-n Yerushaláyim ; Arabic: القُدس al-Quds and/or أورشليم Ûrshalîm)[i] is the capital of Israel,[neutrality is disputed] though not internationally recognized as such,[ii]
and is sought by the Palestinian Authority as the capital of a future Palestinian state.[1][2][3]
Jerusalem is one of the oldest cities in the world[4] and is located in the Judean Mountains, between the Mediterranean Sea and the northern edge of the Dead Sea. It is Israel's largest city in both population and area, if East Jerusalem is included.[5][6] with a population of 801,000 residents[7] over an area of 125.1 km2 (48.3 sq mi).[8][9][iii]
According to the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics, 208,000 Palestinians live in East Jerusalem.
Jerusalem is also a holy city to the three major Abrahamic religions—Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Somedifferentstuff (talk) 08:05, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
- The revert was fully justified.
- Only East Jerusalem is "is sought by the Palestinian National Authority" as the capital of a future proposed Palestinian state
- Dead links were used as sources
- Most importantly, intentions of any state or future state do not goes into the lead. Vatican intend to see Jerusalem as international city under UN or similar administration. That does not mean that we should include this intention of Vatican in the first sentence. --Tritomex (talk) 13:59, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
- The State of Palestine declared Jerusalem its capital, not East Jerusalem. nableezy - 14:34, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
Jerusalem is Israel's capital, but is that the city's primary role? Is it really the best idea to start the article by bluntly stating Jerusalem's status as capital of Israel? The opening of the article ought to define the article's subject, and "a major city in the Levant" serves the purpose just fine. Jerusalem's capital status could then follow that opening phrase. — Rickyrab. Yada yada yada 18:05, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
- The way it was seems to be the common, standard way of writing articles about capital cities on Wikipedia. Compare with Paris, Cairo etc... EscEscEsc (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 19:17, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
- There is a blatant attempt to bias this article in favour of the Palestinian POV and it is totally unacceptable. The introduction is balanced at present by saying Jerusalem is the capital of Israel though not internationally recognised as such. That balanced, giving both sides views and providing the facts. Attempts to try and add the fact there is a palestinian claim to the first sentence is just unreasonable, as has been debated extensively above. There is NO consensus for certain changes being proposed, and there is no reasonable case for an entire POV section tag when there is already inline neutrality tag for the primary issue people seem concerned about. BritishWatcher (talk) 19:33, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
- "There is a blatant attempt to bias this article in favour of the Palestinian POV and it is totally unacceptable"..no, sorry, but that simply isn't true as far as I can tell. The evidence suggests to me that it's the other way around. Where is the Palestinian POV in the introduction ? The international community isn't Palestinian. The Palestinian POV doesn't appear until the 5th paragraph of the lead despite the Palestinians being the other party to the dispute with an equal claim to the city as their capital as far as RS are concerned. Frankly I think it's lucky the Palestinian POV is mentioned at all given that we have so many contributors here whose ability to deal with this issue neutrally is apparently damaged beyond repair or who are insufficiently informed about the issues and their policy obligations. If editors followed the advice at Wikipedia:ARBPIA#Editors_counseled this would have been sorted out years ago. Sean.hoyland - talk 08:48, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- Im saying there is clearly an attempt here to insert Palestinian POV, not that the current article is Palestinian POV. Whilst i would prefer to see some changes, i believe the current wording is balanced, making clear Israel is the capital of Jerusalem, but this is not recognised by the international community. That is perfectly balanced and reasonable. What is not reasonable and what is blatant POV pushing is the attempts to try and make out like a claim to the city is somehow worthy of being in the same sentence as the fact it is the capital of ISrael. The proposal above is the latest flawed proposal, yet there has been even worse ones in recent months too. It is simply not appropriate for the first sentence to be vandalised with POV. There are many disputed states and territorial claims, the first sentences do not tend to put a claim in line with the factual realities on the ground. For example.. Northern Ireland says "Northern Ireland is a part of the United Kingdom in the north-east of the island of Ireland. It is variously described as a country, province or region of the UK, amongst other term.". It does not say, Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom, and claimed by Irish republicans who want a united Ireland." To do so would give undue weight. Same applies in this case, the palestinian claim is clearly explained in the introduction already.. it does not need to be pushed into the first or second sentence, which will give undue weight. BritishWatcher (talk) 12:37, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- "There is a blatant attempt to bias this article in favour of the Palestinian POV and it is totally unacceptable"..no, sorry, but that simply isn't true as far as I can tell. The evidence suggests to me that it's the other way around. Where is the Palestinian POV in the introduction ? The international community isn't Palestinian. The Palestinian POV doesn't appear until the 5th paragraph of the lead despite the Palestinians being the other party to the dispute with an equal claim to the city as their capital as far as RS are concerned. Frankly I think it's lucky the Palestinian POV is mentioned at all given that we have so many contributors here whose ability to deal with this issue neutrally is apparently damaged beyond repair or who are insufficiently informed about the issues and their policy obligations. If editors followed the advice at Wikipedia:ARBPIA#Editors_counseled this would have been sorted out years ago. Sean.hoyland - talk 08:48, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
Please do not use an entire section POV tag for the introduction. Use inline tagging for the specific claims people have concerns about, the vast majority of the facts and information in the introduction is accurate so people should not be confused about how accurate any of it is. Undermines the entire article. BritishWatcher (talk) 19:30, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
There is a blatant attempt to bias this article in favour of the Palestinian POV and it is totally unacceptable.British Watcher
The international community isn't Palestinian. The Palestinian POV doesn't appear until the 5th paragraph of the lead .Sean Hoyland
Im saying there is clearly an attempt here to insert Palestinian POV, not that the current article is Palestinian POV.' British Watcher
- BW. In short, you are not listening, but rehearsing your position. There are 3 POVs. (a) Israel's (b) The international community's (the legal lie of the land based on corpus separatum); (c) the Palestinians'.
- The Palestinians are not some discarded pariah element in the equation. Their claim has parity per WP:NPOV, but is textually downplaced, repudiated, or absorbed into that of the second party. If you wish to challenge that, use policy and RS-based arguments. not personal opinions.--Nishidani (talk) 09:24, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
- The palestinian claim to Jerusalem is already mentioned in the introduction. The question is here about preventing [{WP:UNDUE|undue weight]] by biasing the introductions first sentence with Palestinian POV. A claim to want to control the city at some point in the future is very very different to the fact it is the capital of Israel and acts as such. We ensure balance by including very clearly after that this is not recognised by the international community (which includes the palestinian view). The claim by palestinians to jerusalem is better handled in the other parts of the introduction as at present. You will find many articles saying that Israels capital is Jerusalem but that this isnt recognised by the international community/, yet do not go on to say in the same sentence or paragraph about palestinians wanting it as their future capital. BritishWatcher (talk) 12:10, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
- Oh come, now. Please try to make a cogently coherent argument. The point made by several editors is that Israel's claim is in the first sentence, the Palestinian claim isn't. So what on earth has WP:Undue to do with the fact that in violation of WP:NPOV, one of the three parties is not represented in the first sentence? You are saying that compliance with WP:NPOV would violate WP:Undue, one of the most extravagantly queer twistings of policy I've encountered in 6 years of editing. --Nishidani (talk) 12:46, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
- Reliable sources do mention the Israeli and Palestinian claims next to each other: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 Cheers, --Dailycare (talk) 17:28, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
- I've re-added the section tag. In order to adhere to NPOV, the Palestinian viewpoint needs to be represented in the first paragraph, just as the Israeli and international viewpoint is shown. (BW, inline tagging is not possible because this is a structural dispute.) Somedifferentstuff (talk) 09:34, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
- I support Somedifferentstuff's assessment. Israel's viewpoint is given in the first paragraph, as is the viewpoint of the international community. The Palestinian viewpoint should not be relegated to further down the page. As Dailycare has shown Reliable source coverage of this topic present the Israeli and Palestinian viewpoints on this issue consecutively. The current arrangement is not neutral and does not represent how the issue is handled by RS - thus it is a violation of WP:NPOV. Dlv999 (talk) 10:22, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
- A more precise description based on the sources Dailycare provided would be that some RS occasionally also mention that the Palestinians want East Jerusalem as the capital of their future state. I don't see how not putting that in the first paragraph of the lead is an NPOV violation, considering it's an aspiration, not something that's actually happened it doesn't deserve the same weight. Just like the article about Taiwan doesn't mention the PRC's claims and aspirations over that territory in the first paragraph of the lead. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 18:56, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
- There is also the already well labored point that significant RS describe Israel's position on Jerusalem, not as a fact, but as a "claim" or a "designation", that has been rejected by the international community (or some similar formulation). Dlv999 (talk) 19:04, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
- There is also the already well labored point that significant RS describe it as fact, while no significant RS say it's not a fact. That some RS take no position ("claim" or "designation" doesn't mean it's not a fact) is not a reason to water down the language here when we have RS that do take a position. Non-recognition, the significance of which nobody has found a source that explains, is already right next to the statement of fact, which is supported by RS. All the POVs are represented in the lead. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 20:58, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
- A source saying something is a widely rejected claim is not the same viewpoint as a source saying something is a fact. As the article stands only one of those viewpoints is presented in the article. Dlv999 (talk) 21:12, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
- That is simply untrue. Non-recognition is mentioned in the lead. I'll remind you again that we don't know if that has any bearing on the factuality of Jerusalem being the capital, since we have yet to see a source that explains it. Apparently neither do the sources using "claim" otherwise they'd just assess whether it's a fact or not rather than take no position. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 21:19, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
- 2 POV issues, both in the first paragraph. My suggestion to avoid having a permanent POV section tag on the article. First, rewrite the lead -- Jerusalem, located in the Judean Mountains between the Mediterranean Sea and the northern edge of the Dead Sea, is one of the oldest cities in the world.[1] According to the Israeli government, Jerusalem is the nation's capital (although it is not internationally recognized as such.)[ii]
- The second POV issue, the Palestinian vacuum in the first paragraph, also needs to be remedied. Somedifferentstuff (talk) 00:35, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
- I find it quite fascinating that you think there will be a "permanent POV section tag on the article" if you don't get your way. Putting that aside, your first suggestion has already been made and has failed to find consensus. To recap, it looks like all articles about capital cities state that in the first section of the lead, so there's really no reason to deviate from that. There's also no reason to introduce "according to the Israeli government" when we have RS that state it as plain fact.
- The "Palestinian vacuum" in the first paragraph is also on par with other articles. We don't tend to give aspirations the same weight as facts. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 01:10, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
- There will be a permanent POV section tag as long as the article continues to violate that policy. Israel's claim of capital status is not recognized by most of the world, which is precisely why the term "Israeli government" is essential in creating a neutral lead. Pretending that Jerusalem is "just another capital city" is laughable at best. And ignoring the Palestinian vacuum within the first paragraph will not lead to a consensus, I assure you. Somedifferentstuff (talk) 02:57, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
- The POV tag will be removed once the discussion is concluded one way or another. If you think you can keep a tag on an article until you are personally satisfied with the text, you are mistaken. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 03:29, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
- That's not how Wikipedia works. In order to remove the tag you need to look at the general consensus (all editors present). If the general consensus is not to do so due to a continued violation, then the tag remains. Somedifferentstuff (talk) 10:35, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
- I would assume that if there's consensus to keep the tag, there would be consensus to make the edit and then the tag wouldn't be needed. Tags don't stay on articles indefinitely. There's a discussion and it will be concluded one way or another. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 19:15, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
- That's not how Wikipedia works. In order to remove the tag you need to look at the general consensus (all editors present). If the general consensus is not to do so due to a continued violation, then the tag remains. Somedifferentstuff (talk) 10:35, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
- The POV tag will be removed once the discussion is concluded one way or another. If you think you can keep a tag on an article until you are personally satisfied with the text, you are mistaken. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 03:29, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
- There will be a permanent POV section tag as long as the article continues to violate that policy. Israel's claim of capital status is not recognized by most of the world, which is precisely why the term "Israeli government" is essential in creating a neutral lead. Pretending that Jerusalem is "just another capital city" is laughable at best. And ignoring the Palestinian vacuum within the first paragraph will not lead to a consensus, I assure you. Somedifferentstuff (talk) 02:57, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
- That is simply untrue. Non-recognition is mentioned in the lead. I'll remind you again that we don't know if that has any bearing on the factuality of Jerusalem being the capital, since we have yet to see a source that explains it. Apparently neither do the sources using "claim" otherwise they'd just assess whether it's a fact or not rather than take no position. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 21:19, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
- A source saying something is a widely rejected claim is not the same viewpoint as a source saying something is a fact. As the article stands only one of those viewpoints is presented in the article. Dlv999 (talk) 21:12, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
- There is also the already well labored point that significant RS describe it as fact, while no significant RS say it's not a fact. That some RS take no position ("claim" or "designation" doesn't mean it's not a fact) is not a reason to water down the language here when we have RS that do take a position. Non-recognition, the significance of which nobody has found a source that explains, is already right next to the statement of fact, which is supported by RS. All the POVs are represented in the lead. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 20:58, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
- There is also the already well labored point that significant RS describe Israel's position on Jerusalem, not as a fact, but as a "claim" or a "designation", that has been rejected by the international community (or some similar formulation). Dlv999 (talk) 19:04, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
- A more precise description based on the sources Dailycare provided would be that some RS occasionally also mention that the Palestinians want East Jerusalem as the capital of their future state. I don't see how not putting that in the first paragraph of the lead is an NPOV violation, considering it's an aspiration, not something that's actually happened it doesn't deserve the same weight. Just like the article about Taiwan doesn't mention the PRC's claims and aspirations over that territory in the first paragraph of the lead. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 18:56, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
- I support Somedifferentstuff's assessment. Israel's viewpoint is given in the first paragraph, as is the viewpoint of the international community. The Palestinian viewpoint should not be relegated to further down the page. As Dailycare has shown Reliable source coverage of this topic present the Israeli and Palestinian viewpoints on this issue consecutively. The current arrangement is not neutral and does not represent how the issue is handled by RS - thus it is a violation of WP:NPOV. Dlv999 (talk) 10:22, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
- I've re-added the section tag. In order to adhere to NPOV, the Palestinian viewpoint needs to be represented in the first paragraph, just as the Israeli and international viewpoint is shown. (BW, inline tagging is not possible because this is a structural dispute.) Somedifferentstuff (talk) 09:34, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
- Reliable sources do mention the Israeli and Palestinian claims next to each other: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 Cheers, --Dailycare (talk) 17:28, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
- Oh come, now. Please try to make a cogently coherent argument. The point made by several editors is that Israel's claim is in the first sentence, the Palestinian claim isn't. So what on earth has WP:Undue to do with the fact that in violation of WP:NPOV, one of the three parties is not represented in the first sentence? You are saying that compliance with WP:NPOV would violate WP:Undue, one of the most extravagantly queer twistings of policy I've encountered in 6 years of editing. --Nishidani (talk) 12:46, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
- The palestinian claim to Jerusalem is already mentioned in the introduction. The question is here about preventing [{WP:UNDUE|undue weight]] by biasing the introductions first sentence with Palestinian POV. A claim to want to control the city at some point in the future is very very different to the fact it is the capital of Israel and acts as such. We ensure balance by including very clearly after that this is not recognised by the international community (which includes the palestinian view). The claim by palestinians to jerusalem is better handled in the other parts of the introduction as at present. You will find many articles saying that Israels capital is Jerusalem but that this isnt recognised by the international community/, yet do not go on to say in the same sentence or paragraph about palestinians wanting it as their future capital. BritishWatcher (talk) 12:10, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
The palestinian viewpoint appears in the first sentence already as they do also not recognise Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. Their claim to the city cannot be given equal weight by being placed in the first sentence when there is clearly a massive difference between one entity claiming the capital for a future state, compared to one serving as the capital of a state, despite lacking recognition. There has been no consensus on previous attempts to bias this introduction by giving undue weight to the palestinian claim. I never said that the palestinian claim is never mentioned in article on this matter, i said there are many that do not because the primary two factors are "Jerusalem is Israels capital" and "the international community do not recognise this". The palestinian claim is handled in the introduction still, it is not as though there is no mention of it, but the view has rightly been it does not warrant inclusion in the first sentence.
I fail to see why in line tagging does not solve the issue people claim to be unhappy about. People are saying they just want a change to the first sentence.. the first sentence is tagged with the neutrality. How does that not cover the issue? BritishWatcher (talk) 17:12, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
- BW, if sources mention the claims consecutively, why can't we? I think the "massive difference" or lack thereof is something that ought to turn on what sources say, not on editors' opinions on the matter. --Dailycare (talk) 17:32, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
- It already is mentioned! It is detailed in the introduction, it does not all fit nor can it be stated in a neutral way if its put in the first sentence, it simply does not work. It will be gross bias to try and treat the fact its the capital of Israel in law and in practice, just not recognised by the international community... with the fact the Palestinians claim it for their future state. It just cannot all fit fairly. And every single proposal we have seen in this latest round of the attempts to add palestinian POV have been proposals that are very clearly bias and which is obviously going to be unacceptable to many on this page. There was a vote above.. it showed support for the current wording. BritishWatcher (talk) 22:59, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
- I don't mind of the capital issue is moved out of the first sentence overall, in fact not nearly all sources place Israel's and Palestine's "capital claims" in the first sentence. --Dailycare (talk) 18:24, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
- Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, though it is not internationally recognised as such. There is no justification for removing this from the first sentence. We are not hiding facts simply because people are demanding the Palestinian POV be added and given undue weight. BritishWatcher (talk) 20:36, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
- My vote is to move it out of the first sentence. It's a contentious issue and will be better suited with a move. The following first sentence is one of the best, if not the best, first sentences I've seen: "Jerusalem (Hebrew: יְרוּשָׁלַיִם Yerushalayim; Arabic: القدس al-Quds) is an ancient Middle Eastern city of key importance to the religions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam." Somedifferentstuff (talk) 19:41, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, though it is not internationally recognised as such. There is no justification for removing this from the first sentence. We are not hiding facts simply because people are demanding the Palestinian POV be added and given undue weight. BritishWatcher (talk) 20:36, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
- I don't mind of the capital issue is moved out of the first sentence overall, in fact not nearly all sources place Israel's and Palestine's "capital claims" in the first sentence. --Dailycare (talk) 18:24, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
- It already is mentioned! It is detailed in the introduction, it does not all fit nor can it be stated in a neutral way if its put in the first sentence, it simply does not work. It will be gross bias to try and treat the fact its the capital of Israel in law and in practice, just not recognised by the international community... with the fact the Palestinians claim it for their future state. It just cannot all fit fairly. And every single proposal we have seen in this latest round of the attempts to add palestinian POV have been proposals that are very clearly bias and which is obviously going to be unacceptable to many on this page. There was a vote above.. it showed support for the current wording. BritishWatcher (talk) 22:59, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
Edit request on 26 October 2012
According to a World Bank report, the number of recorded building violations between 1996 and 2000 was four and half times higher in Jewish neighborhoods (17,382 violations in West Jerusalem, compared to 3,846 in East Jerusalem) but four times fewer demolition orders were issued in West Jerusalem than in East Jerusalem (348 administrative demolition orders for buildings in East Jerusalem compared to 86 such orders for buildings in West Jerusalem) [10]; Arabs in Jerusalem were less likely to receive construction permits than Jews, and "the authorities are much more likely to take action against Palestinian violators" than Jewish violators of the permit process.[11]
Astypalea (talk) 16:40, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
- I don't have access to the journal. Does the paper cite the world bank as the source for the quoted figures? Dlv999 (talk) 17:48, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
- The World Bank report (here) is already cited in the Jerusalem#Urban_planning_issues section. Sean.hoyland - talk 18:48, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. The request is confusing. Please be more clear what you want added/changed. -Nathan Johnson (talk) 14:13, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
Refs
- ^ Segal, Jerome M. (Fall 1997). "Negotiating Jerusalem". The University of Maryland School of Public Policy. Archived from the original on 14 May 2006. Retrieved 25 February 2007.
- ^ Møller, Bjørn (2002). "A Cooperative Structure for Israeli-Palestinian Relations". Working Paper No. 1. Centre for European Policy Studies. Archived from the original (PDF) on 6 January 2004. Retrieved 16 April 2007.
{{cite journal}}
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ignored (help) - ^ Press, Associated (9 February 2008). "Palestinians grow by a million in decade". Fr.jpost.com. Retrieved 17 October 2011.
- ^ Cite error: The named reference
aice
was invoked but never defined (see the help page). - ^ Largest city:
- "... modern Jerusalem, Israel's largest city ..." (Erlanger, Steven. Jerusalem, Now, The New York Times, 16 April 2006.)
- "Jerusalem is Israel's largest city." ("Israel (country)[dead link]", Microsoft Encarta, 2006, p. 3. Retrieved 18 October 2006. Archived 31 October 2009.)
- "Since 1975 unified Jerusalem has been the largest city in Israel." ("Jerusalem"[dead link], Encyclopædia Britannica Online, 2006. Retrieved 18 October 2006. Archived 21 June 2008)
- "Jerusalem is the largest city in the State of Israel. It has the largest population, the most Jews and the most non-Jews of all Israeli cities." (Klein, Menachem. Jerusalem: The Future of a Contested City, New York University Press, 1 March 2001, p. 18. ISBN 0-8147-4754-X)
- "In 1967, Tel Aviv was the largest city in Israel. By 1987, more Jews lived in Jerusalem than the total population of Tel Aviv. Jerusalem had become Israel's premier city." (Friedland, Roger and Hecht, Richard. To Rule Jerusalem, University of California Press, 19 September 2000, p. 192. ISBN 0-520-22092-7).
- ^ "Press Release: Jerusalem Day" (PDF). Central Bureau of Statistics. 24 May 2006. Retrieved 10 March 2007.
- ^ Jewish Birthrate Exceeds Arab in Jerusalem
- ^ "TABLE 3. – POPULATION(1) OF LOCALITIES NUMBERING ABOVE 2,000 RESIDENTS AND OTHER RURAL POPULATION ON 31/12/2008" (PDF). Israel Central Bureau of Statistics. Retrieved 26 October 2009.
- ^ "Local Authorities in Israel 2007, Publication #1295 – Municipality Profiles – Jerusalem" (PDF) (in Hebrew). Israel Central Bureau of Statistics. Retrieved 31 December 2007.
- ^ Francesco Chiodelli, "Planning illegality: The roots of unauthorised housing in Arab East Jerusalem", Cities 29(2), 2012, pp. 99-106
- ^ Cite error: The named reference
worldbank
was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
WP:NPOV - status of Jerusalem
Wikipedia:Neutral point of view:
- "Neutral point of view" is one of Wikipedia's three core content policies.
- NPOV is a fundamental principle of Wikipedia and of other Wikimedia projects. This policy is nonnegotiable and all editors and articles must follow it.
- Editing from a neutral point of view (NPOV) means representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources.
Partial explanation of editing from a neutral point of view:
- "Avoid stating opinions as facts."
- "Avoid stating seriously contested assertions as facts."
- "Indicate the relative prominence of opposing views."
I'd say that:
- The status of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel is not universally accepted, which is related to the non-acceptance of Jerusalem as Israeli territory.
- Reliable sources state that that status is not universally accepted and explain why.
- It's probable that the non-acceptance is the majority view.
- Some editors here, in some cases for years, have, contrary to the neutrality rule, been arguing that one point of view, the Israeli one, is a fact rather than a point of view.
- The job of editors is to fairly represent what the reliable sources say, not to argue that one point of view is correct by advancing arguments based on dictionary definitions or carrying out votes on who thinks that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel etc.
- Not only does the first sentence of the Lead breach the neutrality rule, it doesn't even properly summarise the body of the article.
- It has already been explained to the editors breaching the neutrality rule that they are breaching it (in some cases repeatedly over a period of years).
- The editors who have been breaching the neutrality rule will probably go on quite happily breaching it.
Therefore, I think that it is time to start reporting editors to AE for failure to abide by one of the fundamental principles of Wikipedia. ← ZScarpia 18:20, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
- Do you think the AE process is capable of dealing with issues like this ? I'm not sure. I've filed a couple of AE cases specifically to test the process without success, in the sense that I didn't learn much from the results. Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive114#DionysosElysees was to test whether a violation of a guideline, WP:POINT, presented in the context of the active arbitration remedies statement "After being warned, any editor who repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process may be blocked up to one year, topic-banned, further revert-restricted, or otherwise restricted from editing." would result in sanctions. The editor was blocked for sockpuppetry before I could find out. The other test was Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive87#Uruandimi to address "non-stop soapboxing and refusal to get the point on the talk page." The test did show, in my view, that AE is not well equipped to deal with situations that involve reading a substantial amount of evidence and making the effort to understand it in context. The editor stopped editing, so again, no result. I would have liked to have filed a lot more test cases to address specific issues but it's time consuming. Soapboxing and original research on talk pages in the topic area is an important one for me. I think there should be a very high cost to editors for doing that. At the moment the cost is paid by everyone else having to wade through it/address it. That is just wrong. Sean.hoyland - talk 19:26, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
- I was just thinking to myself that this page isn't busy enough and what it could use is a hollow threat and some discussion about the failings of AE. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 19:47, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
- I think we need to consider how to proceed with this issue as the discussion above has been closed with a finding of no consensus. While I don't agree with everything the closing editor said, I accept the finding and I'm grateful he dedicated the time and effort to look at the issue. The options I see now would be to consider this a content issue and pursue mediation, or to consider this an editorial conduct issue and involve ArbCom. --Dailycare (talk) 20:07, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
- I was just thinking to myself that this page isn't busy enough and what it could use is a hollow threat and some discussion about the failings of AE. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 19:47, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
- [EC] I think that it's clear that the current wording is not neutral and that it results from long-term point-of-view pushing, point-of-view pushing which it would be fairly easy to demonstrate that it is such. What the latter takes is showing how editors have insisted on presenting something that is not an established fact, that is, in Wikipedia terms, an opinion, something reliable sources don't agree on, as a fact. First you establish that there is disagreement about the status of Jerusalem, then you list the reasons that the various point-of-view pushers have given for why the Israeli point of view is the "correct" one. I think that could be achieved simply and clearly. As far as I can see, there are two, complementary, approaches that could be used to get out of the current situation: to have problem editors removed and, if necessary, to ask for adjudication. To simplify things at AE, I would suggest taking problem editors there individually, one at a time, rather than making a request against a group. ← ZScarpia 20:56, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
- ZScarpia, in all fairness (and, as you know, I support removing the word "capital" from the lead), you are misrepresenting the argument of the pro-capitalists. They contend that calling Jerusalem the capital is the neutral point of view - that, in the ordinary, everyday use of the word, Jerusalem is the capital. Moreover, they argue that removal of the word capital would be a capitulation to political opponents of Israel, thus rendering the lead non-neutral. So the argument is not between neutral and non-neutral positions but over what is neutral.
- While I disagree with the pro-capitalists' position, I respect that they are arguing for what they see as neutrality, in an arena where neutrality is, I believe, a pipe dream. I also believe that with a little flexibility on both sides, the issue could be resolved. However, the rancor that has become injected into the discussion renders that impossible, at least for the time being. So I say, give it a rest. --Ravpapa (talk) 05:18, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- I agree that many editors are arguing for what they see as neutrality, but that is the problem. Content is being defined by what editors can see rather than by the rules and the sources. We already know that time won't bring flexibility. There's nothing to lose by trying something different. I think the rancor is just a way of avoiding addressing the content issues. Sean.hoyland - talk 08:55, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- Three questions: have opinions been stated as facts; have seriously contested assertions been stated as facts; has the relative prominence of opposing views been indicated? If the answer to any of those is No, then the article is not neutral. I think that the answer in each case is No and that the reason is that a number of editors have been pushing the Israeli view for a very long time. Imagine if the article was to state that Jerusalem is not the capital of Israel but that Israel disagrees! Point of view pushing happens when editors are so wedded to a particular view that they cannot admit that it is only a view and that is what has happened here. The status of Jerusalem is disputed. It does not matter if some editors feel that their own point of view is a neutral one; if they fail to present their point of view as a point of view, they are point-of-view pushing. The wording of the first sentence has been argued over for years. We came close to a resolution a year or so ago, but it was blocked by someone with more hardline views. I think that some editors have already made it clear that they are not prepared to be flexible. ← ZScarpia 12:01, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- I'll stick my neck out. I've no doubt 'Jerusalem' is the capital of Israel. I've no doubt 'Jerusalem' refers also to East Jerusalem which is not a part of Israel, has never been formally annexed, and is disputed occupied territory. In this sense, that East Jerusalem legally does not form part of the capital of Israel, since you cannot place your capital in land not belonging in international law to the state. The conceptual confusion is elementary. I understand why several editors in good faith find objections to the use of capital suspicious (the anti-Israel/antisemitic perspective used to interpret almost any attitude not consonant with Israel's self image) and counter-factual. I understand why many editors in good faith find the use of capital to denote an area that is belligerently occupied and not a legally constituted part of the state of Israel, dubious, a form of preemptive ideological annexation to tilt world opinion into accepting the status quo as in fact legal. The NPOV crisis lies precisely here, in the refusal to allow that, given the denotative ambiguity of 'Jerusalem' (in Israeli rhetoric 'unified': in international law 'divided') any sentence on the status of Jerusalem must be finessed in order to (a) provide a nuance which copes with this ambiguity or(b) eliminate the word 'capital'. The division is between those who face the problem of denotative ambiguity, and those who refuse to (often on what they regard as commonsense lexical grounds (that ignore the ambiguities).Nishidani (talk) 13:00, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- Of course, the individual views of editors about the status of Jerusalem are irrelevant. What matters is that the status of Jerusalem is disputed and therefore any statements about it should be presented as points of view. However, in relation to the status of Jerusalem, there are undisputed facts, such as that Jerusalem is the Israeli seat of government, that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel in Israeli law or that Jerusalem is the declared capital of Israel. I doubt that anyone has a problem with those as statements of fact. Something that is disputed, though, is what the article states, that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. The view of what we term for convenience the international community is that Jerusalem is not the capital of Israel. Until agreement is reached, Jerusalem is not part of the sovereign territory of any country and that no country can unilaterally, as Israel claims to have done, change its status. ← ZScarpia 13:33, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
So what people are proposing is not just to alter the introduction of this article to give undue weight to the Palestinian point of view, but a fundamental change to the entire way the article on Jerusalem is handled and indeed potentially dozens, or hundreds of other articles on wikipedia. This is an absolutely massive and fundamental change from many years of wikipedia handling this situation a certain way... yet the small minority of editors on this page demanding change cannot even get a majority to support a alteration to the introduction of this article? Incredible. The introduction IS balanced and i take offence at suggestions those of us who oppose alterations are some how supporting a biased article. Jerusalem is the capital of Israel though not internationally recognised as such. That is a balanced statement of fact that is fully in line with wikipedia policies. If such a fundamental change is to take place it will need a major discussion involving editors from different pages and wikiprojects. This single articles talk page would not be appropriate for what some people seek to impose. BritishWatcher (talk) 18:31, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- Have you considered that you might be wrong ? Everyone should do that. Can you prove that you are right, that the statement "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" is fully compliant with policy using sources that discuss Jerusalem ? That's the problem I have with the statement, a statement that is certainly consistent with lots of sources. I don't think I would be able to prove that it is an undisputed fact based on a large sample of sources that discuss Jerusalem. So for me at least, there is something fundamentally wrong, and that is enough for me to think that there must be better ways out there. It has nothing to do with the numbers of editors and their views, it's about the sources and policy. I think Nish summed up the problem quite nicely. Actually I think what is required to solve this is probably very little. I think that is clear when you look at ZScarpia's statement above - "in relation to the status of Jerusalem, there are undisputed facts, such as that Jerusalem is the Israeli seat of government, that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel in Israeli law or that Jerusalem is the declared capital of Israel." Those are undisputed facts that could be stated in the encyclopedia's voice in full compliance with policy. But people are so tied to stating as a fact that 'Jerusalem is the capital of Israel' for reasons I don't really understand, no matter what, no matter how disputed it is, no matter that much of this capital of Israel is across the green line, no matter that it's the most contentious city in the world and the most contentious issue in a decades long conflict that has cost thousands of lives. People just need to go back to the sources, and if it can't be done here, it needs to be done somewhere else, in arbitration for example because this issue is clearly not going to go away. Sean.hoyland - talk 21:15, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- (ec) The status of Jerusalem is disputed. The neutrality policy says: "Avoid stating seriously contested assertions as facts." Therefore, to insist that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel is point-of-view pushing (as would insisting that Jerusalem is not Israel's capital).
- Regarding consensus, a few points to bear in mind:
- "Consensus is determined by the quality of the arguments given on the various sides of an issue, as viewed through the lens of Wikipedia policy."
- "The quality of an argument is more important than whether it represents a minority or a majority view."
- "Many of these [consensus-building] discussions will involve polls of one sort or another; but as consensus is determined by the quality of arguments (not by a simple counted majority), polls should be regarded as structured discussions rather than voting. Responses indicating individual explanations of positions using Wikipedia policies and guidelines are given the highest weight."
- "In some cases, disputes are personal or ideological rather than mere disagreements about content, and these may require the intervention of administrators or the community as a whole. Sysops will not rule on content, but may intervene to enforce policy (such as WP:BLP) or to impose sanctions on editors who are disrupting the consensus process inappropriately."
- "Tendentious editing: The continuous, aggressive pursuit of an editorial goal is considered disruptive, and should be avoided. Editors should listen, respond, and cooperate to build a better article. Editors who refuse to allow any consensus except the one they insist on, and who filibuster indefinitely to attain that goal, risk damaging the consensus process."
- The Wikipedia:Requests for comment/User conduct noticeboard may be used "to critique a long-term failure of an editor to live up to community standards."
- ← ZScarpia 21:40, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- ZScarpia Stop please repeatedly threatening editors for voicing their opinion, which you don't like, with different administrative sanctions. This is against Wikipedia rules.--Tritomex (talk) 23:02, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- In what way have I threatened anybody? Where have I complained about editors who were just voicing their opinions? Who have I threatened? Why should anyone who feels they haven't broken any rules feel threatened? Quote the rules that I, personally, have violated? ← ZScarpia 23:25, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- You have said "Therefore, I think that it is time to start reporting editors to AE for failure to abide by one of the fundamental principles of Wikipedia(NPOV)." and you continued latter "Until agreement is reached, Jerusalem is not part of the sovereign territory of any country" West Jerusalem is considered by international law to be part of the State of Israel. To declare entire Jerusalem, including West Jerusalem, as outside of any sovereign territory can be seen as POV.--Tritomex (talk) 23:47, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- "Therefore, I think that it is time to start reporting editors to AE for failure to abide by one of the fundamental principles of Wikipedia(NPOV)." That is a statement of an opinion of mine. What threat does it contain? Note that it doesn't say that unless particular editors do, of stop doing, something, I will do such-and-such.
- West Jerusalem is NOT considered by international law (or the international community) to be part of Israel, but nor, unlike East Jerusalem, is it considered to be occupied. It was exactly the same with East Jerusalem and Jordan up until 1967. The BBC rules for reporting on Israel and the Occupied Territory explain the situation.
- ← ZScarpia 00:44, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- You have said "Therefore, I think that it is time to start reporting editors to AE for failure to abide by one of the fundamental principles of Wikipedia(NPOV)." and you continued latter "Until agreement is reached, Jerusalem is not part of the sovereign territory of any country" West Jerusalem is considered by international law to be part of the State of Israel. To declare entire Jerusalem, including West Jerusalem, as outside of any sovereign territory can be seen as POV.--Tritomex (talk) 23:47, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- In what way have I threatened anybody? Where have I complained about editors who were just voicing their opinions? Who have I threatened? Why should anyone who feels they haven't broken any rules feel threatened? Quote the rules that I, personally, have violated? ← ZScarpia 23:25, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
Jerusalem is the state of Israel's capital. Nobody has yet provided evidence of how a country requires international approval for its capital city, or that a capital is only somewhere that foreign countries have their embassies. You are being selective by simply focusing on "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel", the introduction clearly states it is the capital of Israel but not internationally recognised as such. That is fact and it is balanced. It is the small number of editors on here that are demanding radical changes to this article and indeed dozens of other articles, who are making a big fuss when they cannot even get majority support for a change to this introduction. How long has this article said that Israel is the capital of Israel in the way you dislike? And why all of a sudden has this become such a problem it must be changed, when there has been numerous debates on this matter in the past? Just because some editors do not like the current wording, is no reason to justify radical changes that remove facts simply to bias the article in favour of palestinian POV. BritishWatcher (talk) 23:20, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- (ec) As far as Wikipedia is concerned, a fact is something which is not disputed. The status of Jerusalem is disputed, as stated in sources which have been provided. Therefore, as far as the rules are concerned, whether or not Jerusalem is the capital of Israel should be presented as a point of view. You can say, the Israeli position is that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel (that is a factual statement about a point of view which nobody will argue with), but you cannot state, as a fact, that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. Everything you say is either erroneous or irrelevant. ← ZScarpia 23:40, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- Where is the evidence that a state cannot determine its own capital city? if it views it as its capital, treats it as its capital, and it is declared its capital in law.. how is it not the capital of the state of Israel? It is clearly fact that it is Israels capital, but its not recognised internationally and its future status is disputed.. this is ALL made clear in the introduction already. BritishWatcher (talk) 00:00, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- That's all totally beside the point. We're not here to adjudicate what the position should be, but, since Jerusalem's status is disputed, to neutrally present (ie. not making claims about the rightness or wrongness of views) the different points of view. Explain to me, though, by what right should a country expect others to accept a city is that country's capital if it chooses a place which is not in that country's sovereign territory? You don't stand a bloody carcass's chance in a piranha pool of producing something neutral if you go on using partisan arguments to argue that a point of view is more than a point of view. ← ZScarpia 01:48, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- Where is the evidence that a state cannot determine its own capital city? if it views it as its capital, treats it as its capital, and it is declared its capital in law.. how is it not the capital of the state of Israel? It is clearly fact that it is Israels capital, but its not recognised internationally and its future status is disputed.. this is ALL made clear in the introduction already. BritishWatcher (talk) 00:00, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
""Avoid stating seriously contested assertions " - It is not an assertion.. it is a fact, the state of Israels capital city is Jerusalem. It is also fact that this is not recognised by the international community, so the two points are combined into a very clear first sentence that was a reasonable middle ground. Some would rather that second bit had no place in the opening sentence at all, but it is the moderate centre ground position for the current wording. Some do not respect the fact Belfast is the capital of Northern Ireland which is a country of the United Kingdom. So should we go and make lots of changes to those? Belfast is the claimed capital of Northern Ireland, which is claimed to be one of the countries of the United Kingdom, but this is not recognised by everyone with some believing it is a city in one of the 26 counties of the Republic of Ireland? Where will it all end? We should not give Undue Weight to Palestinian POV by in anyway suggesting it is in a similar situation in terms of being Palestines capital compared it being the State of Israels. The key issue is the fact it lacks international recognition, something the introductions first sentence makes very clear. It is not the fact that Palestinians claim it as a capital for their future state. BritishWatcher (talk) 23:33, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- (ec) As far as "the international community" is concerned, Jerusalem is neither sovereign Israeli territory nor the capital of Israel. Therefore, in Wikipedia terms, it is not a fact, but a point of view, that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. I'm sure that you could provide sources which say that Northern Ireland should not exist, but please provide ones that say that the geopolitical entity with that name doesn't exist, nor that Belfast is its "capital". ← ZScarpia 00:12, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- I fully agree with BritishWatcher. Jerusalem(West+East) under its legal status from 1948, hase only 300 000 inhabitants today, including only 50 000 Palestinians. It does not include almost all East Jerusalem Arab neighborhoods, do not have the seize mentioned in this article. I do not think that international community(although this wording is abstract) can legally determine the capital of any state, it can refuse to recognize it, therefore the current wording is absolutely neutral--Tritomex (talk) 00:21, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- Well that's tough, because the international community says differently, which is why we're in the territory of presenting points of view (Israel's point of view is such-and-such; the international community's view is such-another; those in the middle don't have a point of view). As far as the international community is concerned, any unilateral attempts to change the status of Jerusalem, including declaring it a capital, are (and were) illegitimate and have no standing. ← ZScarpia 00:57, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- I fully agree with BritishWatcher. Jerusalem(West+East) under its legal status from 1948, hase only 300 000 inhabitants today, including only 50 000 Palestinians. It does not include almost all East Jerusalem Arab neighborhoods, do not have the seize mentioned in this article. I do not think that international community(although this wording is abstract) can legally determine the capital of any state, it can refuse to recognize it, therefore the current wording is absolutely neutral--Tritomex (talk) 00:21, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- Let's go back to the sources for moment. What are we meant to make of a source like the BBC ? It says "Israel and many of its supporters regard a united Jerusalem - Israel captured East Jerusalem from Jordan in 1967 - as its undivided capital. Most major powers do not, including the US which, like many other countries, has its embassy in Tel Aviv."[8] We can't ignore it and its approach is very different from ours. We have to factor sources like this into our decision making, and there are many of them. BW/Tritomex, what do you propose we do with sources like this given that ignoring them isn't an option ? If sources like this, or sources that explicitly state that Jerusalem is the capital, are ignored in a discussion, we have a serious problem and we need help to solve it. Sean.hoyland - talk 05:40, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- The other thing I'd like to say is that AE isn't just about smiting editors. It's about fixing things, behavorial issues, so that everyone is forced to comply with policy and guidelines. The original research/synthesis, personal opinions and analyses, arguments from first principals, arguments based on dictionaries, soapboxing, bickering etc etc all has to stop. It's not how we are allowed to make content decisions. AE is meant to be able to help with things like that, enforcing compliance with the rules, although I'll admit that I'm quite skeptical about that. AE could be a positive thing in this dispute to force people to focus on the sources and policy. Sean.hoyland - talk 07:52, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
ZScarpia,Sean.hoyland I have personally nothing against inclusion of third party in any dispute resolution in accordance with Wikipedia rules. ZScarpia What is in your opinion the capital of Israel? or is there some source which states that anyone from outside can determine the capital of another state? Just to repeat we already pointed out that Jerusalem is not recognized by "international community" as the capital of Israel(this is my answer to Sean question), so the only question which remains are:
1) If there is possibility (under international law or international agreements ) that some institution, state or entity from outside could determine legally the capital of another state
2) Did it happen in the case of Israel and what was determined as Israeli capital? Tritomex (talk) 10:46, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- Personally, I have no view on what the capital of Israel is, not that my own view, or the view of any other editor, on the matter has any relevance to Wikipedia. What I think the sources show is that the capital of Israel is disputed. One viewpoint is that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. Another viewpoint is that it isn't. Some sources used to state that Tel Aviv was the capital of Israel; I don't know if more recent ones still do.
- We're not in the business of arguing the rights or wrongs of the various positions, just trying to neutrally present them, so, unless you can point to a binding decision made somewhere on Wikipedia that, in the matter of capitals, one side's viewpoint gets to predominate, then your question about institutions has little relevance. Even if, say, there was an Institute For Specifying Capitals Under International Law, if Israel still insisted that Jerualem was its capital, we would still probably end up having to write something to the effect that Israel says that Jerusalem is it's capital, but the IFSCUIL has determined that, under international law, it isn't. Note that the various UN resolutions don't state what IS the capital of Israel, they stated that, without agreement from other parties, Israel cannot change the status of Jerusalem, including making it its capital, which is different. If arguments based on your questions were used to contend that, despite the international community's view, Jerusalem is, undisputably, the capital of Israel, that would be, in effect, trying to circumvent the neutrality rules using arguments not based in policy, that is, point-of-view pushing.
- A question for you: Do sources dispute whether Jerusalem is Israel's capital?
- ← ZScarpia 14:33, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- Some more questions:
- Scenario: Some sources say that the duck-billed platypus is a mammal, others that it is a reptile. Question: Would it be neutral to write: The duck-billed platypus is a mammal, though some say it is a reptile?
- Scenario: Some sources say that the egg came first, others that it was the chicken. Question: Would it be neutral to write: The egg came first, though some say the chicken did?
- Scenario: Israel says that Jerusalem is its capital, the international community says it isn't.Question: Would it be neutral to write: Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, though the international community disputes that?
- ← ZScarpia 16:05, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- "Would it be neutral to write: Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, though the international community disputes that?" - Yes it would be neutral and balanced.. and that is exactly what the introduction already says. We express the facts... It is Israel's capital de jure and defacto, provide us with evidence that says a country cannot determine its own capital? But at the same time we explain very clearly in the very first sentence that this is not recognised by the international community. That is extremely balanced! Can i suggest that you guys demanding radical changes for this article make clear proposals on what wording you want in the first sentence and also what other changes you want for the article. For example what will be done to the info template if you guys had your way? Would we remove the Israeli city flag and emblem if we are wanting this article to pretend this isnt an israeli city?
- Instead of asking pointless, irrelevant and meaningless questions.. how about clearly state your proposals and then we can all scrutinise them. Thanks BritishWatcher (talk) 01:13, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- And your answer to the question: "Do sources dispute whether Jerusalem is Israel's capital?" There are years' worth of proposals in this talkpage and its archives. Read back and see if there's any that you fancy. One proposal was to add a single word, changing the text to read: Jerusalem is the declared capital of Israel. Perhaps your claims of radical change are a bit exagerrated? I hope you don't mind me saying so, but it looks to me, from reading your answers, as though you're suffering something akin to a WP:IDNHT condition. My reason for mentioning that is to (gently) remind you that I've already stated that I think it's time to start reporting editors to noticeboards. I'd also like to point out (to nobody in particular) that I'm not about to be drawn into another long-conversation-to-nowhere with editors who wipe their bottoms on the principles which are supposed to govern how things are done around her. ← ZScarpia 02:35, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- Instead of making more hollow threats, why don't you go ahead and start "reporting editors"? This is, what, the 3rd time in a week you are talking about unspecified editors you'll report somewhere? You can start with me if you think you have a case. Nobody here has done anything worthy of sanctions, except maybe you with the continual threats against basically anyone who doesn't agree with you. Threats that you can't follow through with. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 03:26, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- See the response I made on 23:25, 30 October 2012 (UTC) above. Now, this is what I think a threat looks like (Remember it? Though I suppose you'd like to call it a warning.). It says that, if I don't do something, then the person issuing the threat will do something unpleasant to me. Here, I haven't said I will do anything; in particular, I haven't tried to coerce anyone into doing anything by saying I will do that thing; lastly, I haven't directed my comments at anyone in particular. ← ZScarpia 14:10, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- Yawn. Let me know when you "start reporting editors to noticeboards". No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 17:44, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- An insult? Am I supposed to care? ← ZScarpia 22:04, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- Not sure where you see an insult there, except maybe in the sense of when someone calls your bluff and you feel foolish. You're not going to "start reporting editors to noticeboards" because of the discussion here and your attempt to intimidate editors who don't agree with you has failed spectacularly. We're not impressed. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 22:22, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- It was a question. The question was made because I was trying to figure out whether you were making a misguided attempt to offend me by writing the word "yawn" - misguided because I would only care about the opinion of someone I felt any respect for. ← ZScarpia 01:23, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
- Don't say that! Your respect means so much to me! No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 02:09, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
- Predictable! But I suppose that predictability has its positive aspects. ← ZScarpia 02:28, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
- Indeed. For example, I predicted you'd come back to edit your post to get it "just right". It's important to you because you don't respect me. And you only did it twice! So good laughs for all involved. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 03:54, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
- Predictable! But I suppose that predictability has its positive aspects. ← ZScarpia 02:28, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
- Don't say that! Your respect means so much to me! No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 02:09, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
- (ec) I think that intimidation and bluffing are more in your line. I'm not trying to get anyone here to do anything they wouldn't normally do. In fact, the more the problem editors block, filibuster, refuse to compromise and generally make arseholes of themselves, the easier it'll be be to have them kicked out. ← ZScarpia 02:21, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
- Yawn. Don't forget to let me know when you "start reporting editors to noticeboards" "to have them kicked out". No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 03:54, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
- It was a question. The question was made because I was trying to figure out whether you were making a misguided attempt to offend me by writing the word "yawn" - misguided because I would only care about the opinion of someone I felt any respect for. ← ZScarpia 01:23, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
- Not sure where you see an insult there, except maybe in the sense of when someone calls your bluff and you feel foolish. You're not going to "start reporting editors to noticeboards" because of the discussion here and your attempt to intimidate editors who don't agree with you has failed spectacularly. We're not impressed. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 22:22, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- An insult? Am I supposed to care? ← ZScarpia 22:04, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- Yawn. Let me know when you "start reporting editors to noticeboards". No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 17:44, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- See the response I made on 23:25, 30 October 2012 (UTC) above. Now, this is what I think a threat looks like (Remember it? Though I suppose you'd like to call it a warning.). It says that, if I don't do something, then the person issuing the threat will do something unpleasant to me. Here, I haven't said I will do anything; in particular, I haven't tried to coerce anyone into doing anything by saying I will do that thing; lastly, I haven't directed my comments at anyone in particular. ← ZScarpia 14:10, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- Instead of making more hollow threats, why don't you go ahead and start "reporting editors"? This is, what, the 3rd time in a week you are talking about unspecified editors you'll report somewhere? You can start with me if you think you have a case. Nobody here has done anything worthy of sanctions, except maybe you with the continual threats against basically anyone who doesn't agree with you. Threats that you can't follow through with. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 03:26, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- And your answer to the question: "Do sources dispute whether Jerusalem is Israel's capital?" There are years' worth of proposals in this talkpage and its archives. Read back and see if there's any that you fancy. One proposal was to add a single word, changing the text to read: Jerusalem is the declared capital of Israel. Perhaps your claims of radical change are a bit exagerrated? I hope you don't mind me saying so, but it looks to me, from reading your answers, as though you're suffering something akin to a WP:IDNHT condition. My reason for mentioning that is to (gently) remind you that I've already stated that I think it's time to start reporting editors to noticeboards. I'd also like to point out (to nobody in particular) that I'm not about to be drawn into another long-conversation-to-nowhere with editors who wipe their bottoms on the principles which are supposed to govern how things are done around her. ← ZScarpia 02:35, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- ZScarpia Concerning your question "Do sources dispute whether Jerusalem is Israel's capital?" many RS do not dispute it, contrary to us, by our at minimum already balanced description of Jerusalem status as " not internationally recognized as such" Examples can be found at National Geography [9], CIA factbook [10] Country Watch [11] Maps of World, even official US documents (State Department documents) [12] academic papers [13] or [14] Some geographical sites states Jerusalem as the capital of Israel with fuss note that foreign embassies are located in Tel Aviv, without even mentioning the dispute regarding international recognition [15]....etc I found sources (mostly political newspapers) which are explaining the lack of international recognition of Jerusalem status as the capital of Israel, as we did, but I did not found RS which categorically states that Jerusalem is not the capital of Israel and which claim Tel Aviv or other cities to this position. Also, I would agree with other editors that threatening other editors who do not share your opinion, is serious violation of Wikipedia guidelines, therefore I kindly ask you again to refrain from continuing to do so.--Tritomex (talk) 11:06, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- So, at least you would agree that sources explain that the status of Jerusalem is disputed? ← ZScarpia 14:17, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- The introduction makes clear the status of Jerusalem is disputed.. Nobody is denying that. Above you said maybe i was exaggerating about how radical the changes to this page would be if you guys got your way.. but that seems to be the position you are taking. Do you accept that Jerusalem is a city in Israel? No.. so do we need to remove the Israeli city's flag and emblem from the infobox template or put silly disclaimers? This article would need completely changing, far more than just adding a single word or two to the first sentence. This is why we need to know details of what exactly you are proposing. Are you and all the others happy with the neutrality tag being removed and this debate resolved if we simply add the word is the "declared capital of Israel" instead of just capital? Im prepared to debate that and im not entirely against such a change (as putting declared and linking to the Israeli law could make sense) though i do not think such wording is required. But some of the recent proposals have been totally unacceptable. And yes ive read some of the past debates on this matter. Just because there has been past debates does not mean after a few days of you being unhappy with an outcome you can take this matter somewhere else to complain. BritishWatcher (talk) 14:44, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- So, at least you would agree that sources explain that the status of Jerusalem is disputed? ← ZScarpia 14:17, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
I think we have more or less everyone here on the record with the arguments that they've advanced. My suggestion is to proceed, one question I have is if we decide to proceed to mediation, can some editors prevent the mediation from going ahead by not consenting, or prevent the mediation from succeeding by claiming to "not support" the mediated edit after the fact? I recall hearing of editors who didn't participate in a mediation opposing the mediated result after the mediation concludes. Is that possible? --Dailycare (talk) 19:22, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- Perhaps it would be a good idea to start a new talkpage section for a discussion about mediation? ← ZScarpia 22:04, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- I think that we should rather decide where we want to go: mediation, AE or ArbCom, and then go there. If we decide mediation, then we can start a new thread on details but we need to decide what we're going to do first. --Dailycare (talk) 19:21, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
- Ok. Sorry, I hadn't appreciated exactly what you were trying to do. ← ZScarpia 21:35, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
- I think that we should rather decide where we want to go: mediation, AE or ArbCom, and then go there. If we decide mediation, then we can start a new thread on details but we need to decide what we're going to do first. --Dailycare (talk) 19:21, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
Wouldn't it be a good compromise to say that "Israel considers (all of) Jerusalem to be its capital, but the international community disagrees"? After all, Israel is the one currently governing all of Jerusalem. Futurist110 (talk) 18:38, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- I don't have a problem with that (though I'm unsure why the part in brackets is necessary). It contains two factual statements, both of which are undisputed by sources (assuming that the term "international community" is accepted as shorthand for resolutions made by the UNGA and UNSC), which is the problem I have with the current wording. The other issue to think about, given that the sentence is in the Lead, is whether they summarise the contents of the article well (which I don't as yet have an opinion about). ← ZScarpia 19:23, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- I strongly oppose "considers" if we are talking about the first sentence. Id maybe not oppose "is the declared capital of Israel" linking to Israeli law.. But saying considers is totally not appropriate for the introduction. Otherwise every article on a capital city would start.. State considers it its capital. BritishWatcher (talk) 23:37, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- Actually, as no other country's capital is disputed, your last sentence is untrue. ← ZScarpia 00:12, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
- Cyprus disputes that Nicosia is the capital of Northern Cyprus, so it's your statement which is untrue. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 00:35, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
- Oh, right? In Cyprus, it's not recognition of the status of a city which is in dispute, but a whole "state". Only Turkey recognises the breakaway Republic of Northern Cyprus. The Lead of the Nicosia article says: "The northern part of the city functions as the capital of the self-proclaimed Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus ... ." Since you made the comparison, perhaps you'd accept comparable wording for the Jerusalem article: "Jerusalem functions as the capital of Israel." That looks factual to me. ← ZScarpia 02:00, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
- Recognition of the capital is part of a wider dispute. Not unlike the situation we're talking about here.
- Not that wikipedia is a reliable source for anything, but I'd be happy to consider your suggestion, if you'd explain to me what the difference between "functions as the capital" and "is the capital" is. Without resorting to OR, naturally. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 02:15, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
- My question was ironic. It was pointing out that, in the article on the comparison you chose, the "IS the capital" wording, which is in dispute here, is not used. Do you really need the difference explained? After all, it has been explained on this talkpage many times before. In Wikipedia you can only state things as facts if they are not disputed in sources. That Jerusalem "is the capital" of Israel IS disputed. As is well established, there is a raft of UN resolutions which reject Israel's moves to change the status of Jerusalem. They state that Israel's laws on the matter are null and void. Therefore, the more neutral sources are careful to explain that, though Israel's position is that Jerusalem is its capital, the international community rejects that. As has been pointed out, the BBC issued an apology and made a correction when one of its sports reporters wrote an article in which it was stated that Jerusalem is Israel's capital. Whereas it is disputed that Jerusalem IS Israel's capital, it is not disputed (as far as I know) that Jerusalem functions as/serves as/is de facto Israel's capital. If that is not disputed, then it is permissible to state that as a fact, rather than a point of view, in Wikipedia. However, I was not suggesting a form of wording, just pointing out a flaw in your argument. ← ZScarpia 10:44, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
- Oh, right? In Cyprus, it's not recognition of the status of a city which is in dispute, but a whole "state". Only Turkey recognises the breakaway Republic of Northern Cyprus. The Lead of the Nicosia article says: "The northern part of the city functions as the capital of the self-proclaimed Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus ... ." Since you made the comparison, perhaps you'd accept comparable wording for the Jerusalem article: "Jerusalem functions as the capital of Israel." That looks factual to me. ← ZScarpia 02:00, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
- As you pointed out in your response, it contains two "factual statements", the first being Israel considers it its capital, the second the international community disputes this. I agree it wouldnt need the second statement, but it is a statement of fact if the UK considers London its capital city. Perhaps it would start the United Kingdom and the international community consider London the capital of the UK? Still waiting for any evidence that says a country cannot determine its own capital. Also if we did put "considers" in the first sentence, do we go and add that word everywhere.. Israel considers this the flag of the city of Jerusalem, Israel considers this the emblem of the city. Israel considers this person to be the mayor of the city, Israel considers this to be the city government.. I bet if i looked i could find dozens of locations in the article where wed have to put "considered" if we go down this path that Jerusalem is not a city in Israel and its not its capital. BritishWatcher (talk) 00:25, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
- I'd suggest waiting for these fine gentlemen to decide if they want to go to mediation or Arbcom or AE or whatever and not waste time on suggestions that have been rejected in the past. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 00:35, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
- Before you withdraw into silence, would you answer the same question I addressed to BritishWatcher: "Do sources dispute whether Jerusalem is Israel's capital?" ← ZScarpia 10:44, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
- Sources say that Israel declares the city its capital, and that the international community do not recognise this. Just because the international community do not recognise something does not imply it is not a fact. Several people have asked on a number of occasions, where is the evidence that suggests a country cannot decide its own capital city? No definition i have yet to see has stated that it is decided by the international communities recognition of a city, rather than the state itself. The introduction clearly states the status of Jerusalem is disputed. BritishWatcher (talk) 18:24, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
- Very few sources dispute that Jerusalem is the capital. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 18:46, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks for answering. Are you including those which present the view that Jerusaslem is the capital as the Israeli point of view or only those which say, definitely, that Jerusalem is not the capital? ← ZScarpia 21:20, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
- There are many sources saying Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. BritishWatcher (talk) 21:59, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, I agree. However, there are also sources which say that is only the Israeli view and that the international community do not accept Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. And the rules say that points of view, which is what we have here, have to be presented as points of view. ← ZScarpia 22:43, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
- No, there are sources say that the international community does not recognize it. Your interpretation of what that non-recognition means is OR. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 00:24, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
- On the other hand in the UN, most of the world's countries have said that Israel's attempts to make Jerusalem its capital are "null and void". The plain reading of "recognize" is clear on its own, for example when the international community didn't recognize Iraq's annexation of Kuwait, it meant that it didn't consider Kuwait to be a part of Iraq. Similarly, as France for the time being doesn't recognize the State of Palestine, it means France doesn't consider that state to yet exist. I don't see any reasons why non-recognition would have a different content in this case. (The Security Council said of Iraq's annexation that "(...) annexation of Kuwait by Iraq (...) has no legal validity, and is considered null and void; 2. Calls upon all States (...) not to recognize that annexation". Sound familiar?) --Dailycare (talk) 20:43, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
- What sounds familiar is you presenting your opinion rather than a reliable source. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 21:06, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
- What exactly do you want citations for? Hopefully, after all the discussion that's preceded this, you're not asking for one for the first sentence. Have a look at: UN Resolution 476 of June 1980 (uses the "null and void" phrasing), Resolution 478 of August 1980 (uses the "null and void" phrasing), Resolution 252 of May 1968 (declared Israel’s annexation of Jerusalem “invalid” and called upon Israel “to rescind all such measures already taken and to desist forthwith from taking any further action which tends to change the status of Jerusalem”), Resolution 267 of July 1969 (noted that Israel had since “taken further measures tending to change the status of the City of Jerusalem”; it reaffirmed “the established principle that acquisition of territory by military conquest is inadmissible” and deplored Israel’s further violations of U.N. resolutions, censured “in the strongest terms all measures taken to change the status of the City of Jerusalem”, and confirmed “that all legislative and administrative measures and actions taken by Israel which purport to alter the status of Jerusalem, including expropriation of land and properties thereon, are invalid and cannot change that status” and urgently called on Israel to rescind the measures taken to annex Jerusalem), Resolution 298 of September 1971 (deplored Israel’s continued violation of U.N. resolutions, and confirmed that Israel’s attempts to annex Jerusalem “are totally invalid”, Resolution 452 of July 1979 (again deplored Israel’s continued violation of Security Council resolutions and again emphasized that Israel’s annexation of Jerusalem “has no legal validity and constitutes a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention”; it again also noted that Jerusalem is included in “the occupied Arab territories”).
- From the Recognition section of the Online Britannica article on International Law: Recognition is a process whereby certain facts are accepted [my emphasis] and endowed with a certain legal status, such as statehood, sovereignty over newly acquired territory, or the international effects of the grant of nationality.
- Question: Does the non-recognition of Jerusalem as Israel's capital mean that , as far as the international community is concerned, Jerusalem is not Israel's capital?
- Earlier, I wrote that "the international community do not accept Jerusalem is the capital of Israel." You insisted that "the international community does not recognize it," calling my wording original research. Note that the Online Britannica description of diplomatic recognition defines it as "a process whereby certain facts are accepted and endowed with a certain legal status." That is, recognition is defined in terms of acceptance, the word I used. Rephrasing sourced facts is a normal process in Wikipedia (necessitated by the need to avoid copyright violations); it is not, as you claimed, original research. I've told you before that your interpretation of what constitutes original research is incorrect.
- Question: Is the use of dictionary definitions in order to justify claiming that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel original research?
- ← ZScarpia 01:28, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
- Question - Are you the only one allowed to ask questions, and if people answer your questions, will you consider answering ours? You ask about the international community.. They do not officially recognise Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. The issue is, does their lack of recognition stop Jerusalem being the capital of Israel? You have provided NO evidence that shows a capital is only what the international community endorses. It is notable that the international community does not recognise Jerusalem as Israels capital, which is why it is clearly stated. Now here is my question.. You do not believe this article should say Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. That being the case... Do you propose we remove the city flag and emblem and mayor of the city from the infobox? If we want to pretend that this is not an Israeli city then all these things have to go too. If we can take the position (seen as it is the reality on the ground) that this is a city in Israel despite a international dispute.. then why is it such a big jump to stating it as the capital? BritishWatcher (talk) 01:39, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
- Question: Iran does not recognize the State of Israel. Does that mean that Israel is not a state? How do you suggest we change the lead of the Israel article to accommodate this fact? We can't just say it's a state if someone doesn't recognize it, right? How about Taiwan? Is that a state?
- Question: do you have anything other than OR and SYNTH to offer? Because that's what your long post above amounts to. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 01:50, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
- To answer your first question, NMMNG, yes, that is correct. Are you not aware that if the whole world were to ignore someone, he actually disappears? I know a guy that happened to. -- tariqabjotu 03:01, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
Is the use of dictionary definitions in order to justify claiming that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel original research?
- I'd really like to see a definitive answer to this, because the concept of the use of a dictionary constituting original research is new to me. -- tariqabjotu 02:36, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
- Hi, see this comment from the earlier discussion. Using a dictionary to circumvent the fact that sources actially dealing with the subject present the issue as a substantive dispute isn't correct. See also this comment on happy Amsterdam. Concerning the Iranian recognition question, the answer is that as far as Iran is concerned, Israel isn't a state. Now that doesn't mean that Iran is necessarily correct in this, and in fact most countries do recognize Israel. Note, that no-one is proposing to edit the article to say Jerusalem isn't Israel's capital, so the question misses the point. The proposed edits are e.g. that Jerusalem is the capital according to Israli law, or that Jerusalem functions as Israel's seat of government. --Dailycare (talk) 22:10, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
- Oh, but you are. The proposed edits are tantamount to saying it is not simply the capital. That's equivocation and dilution. Hertz1888 (talk) 22:25, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
- Your first edit hinges on the fact that (a) one accepts that dictionary definition [there are no doubt many definitions that rule out the conclusion you make] and (b) one accepts your interpretation, which -- to be honest -- I don't. For your second edit, I'm sure I'm not saying anything new when I say that that comparison to the Netherlands is not apt because Israel has declared its capital as the same city in which its governmental institutions are located.
- Hi, see this comment from the earlier discussion. Using a dictionary to circumvent the fact that sources actially dealing with the subject present the issue as a substantive dispute isn't correct. See also this comment on happy Amsterdam. Concerning the Iranian recognition question, the answer is that as far as Iran is concerned, Israel isn't a state. Now that doesn't mean that Iran is necessarily correct in this, and in fact most countries do recognize Israel. Note, that no-one is proposing to edit the article to say Jerusalem isn't Israel's capital, so the question misses the point. The proposed edits are e.g. that Jerusalem is the capital according to Israli law, or that Jerusalem functions as Israel's seat of government. --Dailycare (talk) 22:10, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
- What sounds familiar is you presenting your opinion rather than a reliable source. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 21:06, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
- On the other hand in the UN, most of the world's countries have said that Israel's attempts to make Jerusalem its capital are "null and void". The plain reading of "recognize" is clear on its own, for example when the international community didn't recognize Iraq's annexation of Kuwait, it meant that it didn't consider Kuwait to be a part of Iraq. Similarly, as France for the time being doesn't recognize the State of Palestine, it means France doesn't consider that state to yet exist. I don't see any reasons why non-recognition would have a different content in this case. (The Security Council said of Iraq's annexation that "(...) annexation of Kuwait by Iraq (...) has no legal validity, and is considered null and void; 2. Calls upon all States (...) not to recognize that annexation". Sound familiar?) --Dailycare (talk) 20:43, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
- No, there are sources say that the international community does not recognize it. Your interpretation of what that non-recognition means is OR. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 00:24, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, I agree. However, there are also sources which say that is only the Israeli view and that the international community do not accept Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. And the rules say that points of view, which is what we have here, have to be presented as points of view. ← ZScarpia 22:43, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
- There are many sources saying Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. BritishWatcher (talk) 21:59, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks for answering. Are you including those which present the view that Jerusaslem is the capital as the Israeli point of view or only those which say, definitely, that Jerusalem is not the capital? ← ZScarpia 21:20, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
- Before you withdraw into silence, would you answer the same question I addressed to BritishWatcher: "Do sources dispute whether Jerusalem is Israel's capital?" ← ZScarpia 10:44, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
- I'd suggest waiting for these fine gentlemen to decide if they want to go to mediation or Arbcom or AE or whatever and not waste time on suggestions that have been rejected in the past. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 00:35, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
- Cyprus disputes that Nicosia is the capital of Northern Cyprus, so it's your statement which is untrue. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 00:35, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
- Actually, as no other country's capital is disputed, your last sentence is untrue. ← ZScarpia 00:12, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
- As I said in my response to Ravpapa below, it is not incredibly unreasonable to believe that recognition is a pre-requisite for a city being a capital. (I'm not one of those people, of course.) My point is that you're making yourself look silly by hinging your position on the idea that looking at a dictionary is OR. Surely you can do better than that. -- tariqabjotu 23:05, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
- Not to mention that the Amsterdam article specifically notes that it's the capital despite not being the seat of government. If the two weren't normally connected such clarification wouldn't be necessary. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 23:34, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
- As I said in my response to Ravpapa below, it is not incredibly unreasonable to believe that recognition is a pre-requisite for a city being a capital. (I'm not one of those people, of course.) My point is that you're making yourself look silly by hinging your position on the idea that looking at a dictionary is OR. Surely you can do better than that. -- tariqabjotu 23:05, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
Tariq, congratulations for pointing out a fundamental flaw in the anti-capital argument. It is a flaw that illustrates the level of prevarication and subterfuge of both sides of this argument.
It is absurd to say that using a dictionary definition to justify a lead is original research. It isn't (unless the editor is also the author of the dictionary). On the other hand, it is certainly a very flimsy justification. Dictionaries are not references that give in-depth analyses of all the linguistic, political, and legal ramifications of a word. The laconic dictionary definition of "capital" - "seat of government" - doesn't come near to defining all the constituents that make up a capital.
The anti-capitalists certainly know this. The trouble is that there is no clear policy against flimsiness, only against OR. So they have, completely artificially, attached the OR standard to the dictionary argument. For most of those arguing on this page (I hesitate to say all), this appeal to an irrelevant standard is simply a way of promoting their own political agendas.
The pro-capitalists are no better. They are perfectly aware that the dictionary definition does not capture the complexity of the term capital. Otherwise, why are they so adamantly against using what the dictionary considers synonymous - "seat of government"? The reason is clear: they believe that if they say "capital" loud enough and long enough, it will somehow become true.
No, it is clear that both sides are using specious arguments of policy to grind their own political axes. The complete lack of dedication to the principles of neutrality, as Wikipedia dreams of it, is glaring throughout this discussion.
If the sides could, for a moment, put aside their political zeal for a moment, the issue, I believe, could be easily resolved. But it seems that is asking too much of mere mortals. --Ravpapa (talk) 11:16, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
- I'd like to request that you not repeat the characterizations and suggestions you made in your last two paragraphs. There are no doubt, I'm sure, people who hold their respective positions because of political zeal, but there are no doubt people who hold their positions because, after reading the opinions presented by those who disagree with them, still believe they're correct.
- Your own description of the two sides seems to more clearly get at the problem here. There is nothing in the dictionary (or in the general definition of a capital) that makes recognition a prerequisite for a city being a capital, but there's also nothing in the dictionary saying it isn't. Likewise, there is nothing in the dictionary (or in the general definition of a country) that makes recognition a prequisite for a region being a country, but there's also nothing in the dictionary saying it isn't. Yet, in the latter case, I'm sure most here would agree that without recognition, a country is nothing, and really is not a country at all. Does the same apply to capitals? Well, we have limited situations in which this is even a question, and unfortunately the primary situation is this one, coming in the context of a bitter, and ultimately stupid, conflict. I personally think the same standard does not apply to capitals, as there is something physical (e.g. government institutions, place of residence of the head of state) to denote the capital. But if one operates under the belief that a state (and we all agree Israel is one, right?) can be without a capital, then maybe one can believe that recognition is a pre-requisite for capital status. Okay. I don't believe that, but go ahead. -- tariqabjotu 12:42, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
A general question: is there any precedent for (which would justify) deleting the disputed sentence from the Lead, leaving the (undisputed) description given in the body of the article to explain the status of Jerusalem, until a more generally accepted form of wording is agreed on? ← ZScarpia 12:36, 4 November 2012 (UTC)[edited: 22:49, 4 November 2012 (UTC)]
- The sentence is the result of a specific consensus. You need consensus to change the STATUSQUO as your friend Dailycare informed me repeatedly in the past. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 00:24, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
- There is absolutely no consensus for removing that sentence so attempts to remove that sentence will be reverted. Especially if the sentence is removed then we are bogged down with months of mediation over something that has been in the article for many years. BritishWatcher (talk) 18:24, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
- NMMNG, you're an involved editor, are you willing to participate in mediation? --Dailycare (talk) 15:12, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
- When you decide if you want to go to mediation or not I'll decide if I want to participate or not. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 18:46, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
- What's with this brinksmanship? Mediation is not an indictment against editors. There are no sanctions that can come out of mediation. The proceedings of the mediation are privileged, and so they can't be used against you in the future. So why is this a big deal? Why are people insisting that there be some agreement that mediation goes forward? Why are people using "mediation" as some sort of threat and treating it as one? I don't think this issue has ever been to mediation before, so putting it to ArbCom -- which generally doesn't deal with content disputes -- will be seen as premature, while lesser forms of dispute resolution have us spinning in circles. So clearly MedCom is the answer. Do you need help creating the mediation request? If not, just do it already. -- tariqabjotu 12:18, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
- Well i would be ok with some form of mediation but i am unsure if it will resolve anything. This has been debated extensively in the past couple of months, attempts to change a consensus that has existed for a very long time. And radical and totally unacceptable proposals that would totally change this article were rejected. A vote took place above some weeks ago showing majority support for the status quo. A small number of editors are demanding change after years of this article addressing the issue a certain way, trouble is they refuse to even put a specific proposal for us to debate. They insist on having in line tagging of a disputed sentence and a disputed introduction template which tarnishes the entire introduction just based on the first sentence which is already tagged anyway. I propose the editors above arguing for change, create a new section with a very specific proposal that we can all specifically discuss and debate. All the mediation is going to do is try to bring us together to discuss the situation, frankly we could do that without wasting other peoples time too.. if those demanding change actually said exactly what they want. BritishWatcher (talk) 14:55, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
- What's with this brinksmanship? Mediation is not an indictment against editors. There are no sanctions that can come out of mediation. The proceedings of the mediation are privileged, and so they can't be used against you in the future. So why is this a big deal? Why are people insisting that there be some agreement that mediation goes forward? Why are people using "mediation" as some sort of threat and treating it as one? I don't think this issue has ever been to mediation before, so putting it to ArbCom -- which generally doesn't deal with content disputes -- will be seen as premature, while lesser forms of dispute resolution have us spinning in circles. So clearly MedCom is the answer. Do you need help creating the mediation request? If not, just do it already. -- tariqabjotu 12:18, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
- When you decide if you want to go to mediation or not I'll decide if I want to participate or not. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 18:46, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
- I can only put it in negative terms: Isn't it fairly obvious that what they want is some way, any way, not to say that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel? Or, at the very least, to qualify or dilute the direct statement more than it currently is by its juxtaposition of the "not internationally recognized" phrase. To this end they bring in one extraneous argument after another, and try to redefine the meanings of words. That indulges in OR and POV advocacy; referencing the dictionary meaning does not. The torrent of words here, year after year, does not change the simple reality. I think we would be better served by a reminder of the duck test criteria, rather than by recourse to arbitration or mediation, and wouldn't be wasting other people's time (not to mention the time of people here). Hertz1888 (talk) 16:20, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
- You keep talking about dictionary meanings as though that were the only thing that mattered. How about the definition of occupied territory? How is that less relevant to Jerusalem's status than the proclamation, rejected by every other competent party, by one state? nableezy - 17:10, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
- Good examples of extraneous red herrings. As far as I can tell, the definition of a capital (i.e., what makes a capital a capital) does not depend on either criterion (occupied/non-occupied status, universal approval). I didn't know that editors were allowed to change the meanings of words as they please. Hertz1888 (talk) 21:49, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
- No, that isnt extraneous and isnt a red herring. You, and a number of other editors who are adamant about the word capital being used on the basis of the definition of the word, have quite the history of ignoring other words that have plain meanings. You support what you like, and oppose what you dont. It has exactly squat to do with what the dictionary says. You ignore things that dont toe the Israeli party line, and support to the hilt what does. Thats fine, lots of people are like that. But at least drop the act here that this isnt what it so clearly is. nableezy - 01:21, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
- Good examples of extraneous red herrings. As far as I can tell, the definition of a capital (i.e., what makes a capital a capital) does not depend on either criterion (occupied/non-occupied status, universal approval). I didn't know that editors were allowed to change the meanings of words as they please. Hertz1888 (talk) 21:49, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
- Editors accepting sources that present the information in a certain way, as a statement of fact, and ignoring sources that do not present this information as a statement of fact is wrong. It's wrong because it is inconsistent with our content rules. When editors stop doing that, we might be able to address this issue properly. Sean.hoyland - talk 18:16, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
- Interesting. So if, for example, I were to provide sources that do not present as fact that the State of Palestine is a state, or that actually say it is not a fact, you'd support changing the lead of that article? Do let me know, maybe we'll do a test case over there. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 20:35, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
- I don't see a problem with saying Palestine is a "declared" state in that lead, as it isn't even nearly universally recognized. Concerning mediation, I certainly didn't earlier intend to issue any threats by suggesting mediation as a possible way forward and it's a bit tragic if editors got that impression. However, speaking for my behalf I have very limited experience from mediation, I recall that the first hurdle is to get all involved editors to agree to it which is why I asked. --Dailycare (talk) 22:21, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
- Surprise me and put a POV tag on that article like you did here. Don't forget to insist it stay up until the issue is solved to your satisfaction. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 22:38, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
- I don't see a problem with saying Palestine is a "declared" state in that lead, as it isn't even nearly universally recognized. Concerning mediation, I certainly didn't earlier intend to issue any threats by suggesting mediation as a possible way forward and it's a bit tragic if editors got that impression. However, speaking for my behalf I have very limited experience from mediation, I recall that the first hurdle is to get all involved editors to agree to it which is why I asked. --Dailycare (talk) 22:21, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
- Interesting. So if, for example, I were to provide sources that do not present as fact that the State of Palestine is a state, or that actually say it is not a fact, you'd support changing the lead of that article? Do let me know, maybe we'll do a test case over there. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 20:35, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
- You keep talking about dictionary meanings as though that were the only thing that mattered. How about the definition of occupied territory? How is that less relevant to Jerusalem's status than the proclamation, rejected by every other competent party, by one state? nableezy - 17:10, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
- I can only put it in negative terms: Isn't it fairly obvious that what they want is some way, any way, not to say that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel? Or, at the very least, to qualify or dilute the direct statement more than it currently is by its juxtaposition of the "not internationally recognized" phrase. To this end they bring in one extraneous argument after another, and try to redefine the meanings of words. That indulges in OR and POV advocacy; referencing the dictionary meaning does not. The torrent of words here, year after year, does not change the simple reality. I think we would be better served by a reminder of the duck test criteria, rather than by recourse to arbitration or mediation, and wouldn't be wasting other people's time (not to mention the time of people here). Hertz1888 (talk) 16:20, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
Edit request on 2 November 2012
216.165.253.27 (talk) 03:55, 2 November 2012 (UTC) I believe that there is a spelling error in Section 15 'Notable residents'. 'Mediaeval' should be spelled 'Medieval'.216.165.253.27
- It's a permissible alternate spelling, as shown, e.g., in the lead line at Middle Ages. Hertz1888 (talk) 04:02, 2 November 2012 (UTC)