Undid revision 826949998 by JosephusOfJerusalem (talk); You can collapse your own posts if you like, but you can't mess with other people's posts without their permission Tag: Undo |
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{{od}} All the scholars are saying is that this is, unsurprisingly, not the only case of electoral rigging in Kashmir. Thats an open secret. Nowhere are they saying that the rigging was 'minor'. You are not allowed to go an inch beyond the sources and add editorial interpretation. [[User:JosephusOfJerusalem|JosephusOfJerusalem]] ([[User talk:JosephusOfJerusalem|talk]]) 03:38, 21 February 2018 (UTC) |
{{od}} All the scholars are saying is that this is, unsurprisingly, not the only case of electoral rigging in Kashmir. Thats an open secret. Nowhere are they saying that the rigging was 'minor'. You are not allowed to go an inch beyond the sources and add editorial interpretation. [[User:JosephusOfJerusalem|JosephusOfJerusalem]] ([[User talk:JosephusOfJerusalem|talk]]) 03:38, 21 February 2018 (UTC) |
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== [[WP:UNDUE]] content == |
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Kautilya3 you added back the contested content with a meretricious claim of consensus aided with your pinged friends on an unfinished discussion. I can ignore that for the meanwhile. What is pressing is that I looked through your replies to make sense of them and you said ″Besides, the MUF only contested seats in the Valley″. This has got me thinking then that there is no good reason why ″in the Valley″ should be emphasised with italics. It is [[WP:UNDUE]]. I am also thinking the same about the second half of Bose's assessment. If the MUF only contested seats in the Valley then we don't need content about statewide voted. The only reason I am reluctant for the interim to remove the second half of Bose is that it has been here for a long time and requires a different process to get binned, as opposed to the newer content. [[User:JosephusOfJerusalem|JosephusOfJerusalem]] ([[User talk:JosephusOfJerusalem|talk]]) 12:29, 24 February 2018 (UTC) |
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Post 15 February edits
I have been checking the edits you have made since 15 February and I am quite disappointed with them. For one the section called Electoral malpractice is full of WP:UNDUE content which would have been better suited under a title of Extent of electoral malpractice. There is hardly any content which informs the reader about the rigging and the ways the governments rigged the elections and all the other nasty stuff they did with votes (that is content which falls under electoral malpractice), although there is a wealth of information on the way the rigging occurred in the excellent sources you have cited. There is also the problem of too many WP:ATTRIBUTIONs when WP:YESPOV dictates that they not be used for undisputed content (see Shah case in Amira Kadal). It gets worse in that there is added WP:SYNTHESIS between (even worse) WP:SECONDARY and WP:PRIMARY sources. See this edit where you have synthesized content between a secondary source and an official election commission paper. JosephusOfJerusalem (talk) 22:54, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
- Oh boy! You broke my heart. I was so looking forward to your approval and admiration :-)
- But, guess what, your "disappointment" is not grounds for deleting well-sourced and NPOV content. Your supposed objections are:
- The section should be called "extent of electoral malpractice". That is fine by me.
- The actual malpractices should be covered as well. Yes, who would dispute that?
- Problem with too many ATTRIBUTIONS? Are you joking?
- SYNTHESIS between SECONDARY and PRIMARY? What exactly? And if there was such SYNTHESIS, what is the problem with it? See WP:CALC and WP:SYNTHNOT.
- I think a mass revert of a dozen-or-so edits based on spurious WP:IDONTLIKEIT reasons is quite crossing the line. Please be assured that you do not have a right to do such reverts. You need to justify that everything you have reverted has a policy-based reason for it. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 03:32, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
- You will need to keep in mind WP:CIVILITY and focus on content rather than unleashing sarcasm.
- I have re-organized the structure of your contributions to make them flow, removed the source misrepresentation and added a citation needed tag where previously there was a WP:FAKE citation for the opening line under Electoral malpractice. I have also dropped down Results under Rigging to conform with the sequence of events.
- Content that has not been restored includes one WP:CHERRYPICKED and WP:UNDUE sentence. That can be resolved after the more serious first issue in my next sentence.
- The other sentence which has not passed for restoration is the one whose problems I have raised in my first talkpost (which you have ignored). Unless you have a source explicitly supporting that content you are not allowed to add it back because you have mixed up material from two sources (one of them primary) to reach a conclusion not stated in either, which is WP:SYNTHESIS. JosephusOfJerusalem (talk) 04:17, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
- I have referred your "SYNTHESIS" complaint to WP:NORN. I will respond to the other points later in the day. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 14:16, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
- Well, I must say you are incredibly eager to hit the revert button, but remain totally evasive in the discussion that follows. What sentence have you found a problem with? Why is it CHERRYPICKED or UNDUE? You mean to say that you have read the journal article in the fifteen minutes it took you do the revert and figured out that the sentence represented a "CHERRY"? Produce your evidence. What does the article say, and how is the sentence a "CHERRY"? You have 24 hours, failing which you will end up at WP:AE. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 21:10, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
- Content disputes do not go to WP:AE and there is no policy vesting a right in you of giving other editors a time frame of 24 hours to explain to you. This veiled threat has been noted and will be taken to the appropriate venue soon. RegentsPark I would like you to also note this WP:INCIVILITY.
- I will deal with the WP:UNDUE sentence after, as I said, the first more serious issue is solved. JosephusOfJerusalem (talk) 00:22, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
- JosephusOfJerusalem Just a side note here, in my view, you have been avoiding discussions at times. There is another unfinished discussion on Talk:Exodus of Kashmiri Hindus which is awaiting your justification for reinstating some content which was claimed WP:UNDUE by other editors. The page was fully protected to encourage the involved editors in a meaningful discussion but you that has not happened. It would be nice if we can take all these discussions across multiple pages (each one is independent) to their logical conclusion. Adamgerber80 (talk) 01:09, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
- Adamgerber80 I don't see that you have any meaningful input on either of the pages in question. Why exactly are you concerned? What is going on here that I do not know about? JosephusOfJerusalem (talk) 01:16, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
- JosephusOfJerusalem I was the one who requested full protection on the other page to ensure that it did not turn into the Kashmir conflict like situation and I was also the editor who requested full protection on the Kashmir conflict page. So yes I am concerned about the editing behavior currently on multiple of these pages and my note was to ensure that all these discussions are not getting WP:STONEWALL. There has also been an WP:ANI issue which was raised by some editor about people randomly showing up to revert edits and disappearing which is why I monitor these pages. Adamgerber80 (talk) 01:31, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
- What I am pointing out is that you contribute neither on the main pages nor the discussions of the articles where you do reverts. It is no secret that you are one of those who have been reported at WP:ANI for ″randomly showing up to revert edits and disappearing″. JosephusOfJerusalem (talk) 02:02, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
- JosephusOfJerusalem I sense a bit of hypocrisy here. You warn Kautilya3 of issuing warnings and that it would recorded for "behavioral issues" and then do the same thing yourself. It seems you are editing with a prejudice in mind and should be careful with your choice of words. First, I have not reverted any of the edits on this or many other pages. I could very well have given they are contentious. But the goal is to have a healthy discussion and my pointer to you was about that. If you have issues with my edits, I suggest you take it up at WP:ANI instead of throwing around random accusations with little basis. Adamgerber80 (talk) 14:13, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
- What I am pointing out is that you contribute neither on the main pages nor the discussions of the articles where you do reverts. It is no secret that you are one of those who have been reported at WP:ANI for ″randomly showing up to revert edits and disappearing″. JosephusOfJerusalem (talk) 02:02, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
- JosephusOfJerusalem I was the one who requested full protection on the other page to ensure that it did not turn into the Kashmir conflict like situation and I was also the editor who requested full protection on the Kashmir conflict page. So yes I am concerned about the editing behavior currently on multiple of these pages and my note was to ensure that all these discussions are not getting WP:STONEWALL. There has also been an WP:ANI issue which was raised by some editor about people randomly showing up to revert edits and disappearing which is why I monitor these pages. Adamgerber80 (talk) 01:31, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
- Adamgerber80 I don't see that you have any meaningful input on either of the pages in question. Why exactly are you concerned? What is going on here that I do not know about? JosephusOfJerusalem (talk) 01:16, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
- I have a right to see the content I write appear on the main page. If you revert it or delete it, you need to produce policy-based reasons and explanations of how the content fits or doesn't fit those policies. Failure to do so is a conduct issue, for which you have seen other editors get blocked. You can be the next, if you so choose. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 01:47, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
- If the content fails to abide by our policies it has no right to appear anywhere. I am warning you that your unnecessary warnings and threats are being recorded down for behavioural issues.JosephusOfJerusalem (talk) 02:02, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
WP:UNDUE content about the cartel
Exactly what relevance does the 'cartel' have? How does it fit into the article? We know that this was a rigged election so even the 53% vote that the cartel got is an unreliable figure. Read Wilmalm properly...Quite apart from what has been said about the election cartel, how free and fair was polling itself, in any case?
The meat of this article should be devoted to this question. The cartel is for the most part irrelevant. WP:UNDUE. The sentence is also WP:CHERRYPICKED as your contribution mainly ignores the answer to the real question, instead choosing to focus on irrelevant things which make it seem to readers that the cheating 'victors' were in the right. JosephusOfJerusalem (talk) 01:16, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
- This article is on the election. Everything that reliable sources say about the topic will be summarised. Rigging is discussed, and was discussed in my version, in its rightful place. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 01:54, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
- That is not a satisfactory answer to justify your WP:UNDUE sentence. You did not summarize everything that the WP:RS had to say. Your content on rigging was shamelessly non-existent. In fact I had to create the section on rigging. You paid no attention to the appropriate WP:WEIGHT for rigging. You ignored the actual meat and sidetracked the article to irrelevant subjects. What really matters first is the lack of fairness and freedom in the election, as pointed out by Wilmalm. JosephusOfJerusalem (talk) 02:07, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
- I researched and wrote about the issue that interested me the most, viz., the extent of rigging. I haven't stopped anybody from writing other stuff, nor deleted what they wrote. That is not something anybody can say about you, by the way.
- Now that I know that the extent of rigging was minor, given that the elections of Jammu and Kashmir were always rigged (including the most blatant of all: the NC winning all 75 out of 75 seats in the Jammu and Kashmir Constituent Assembly election, 1951 by disqualifying/beating up/arresting all the opposition candidates) I think the issue of rigging in this election has been blown out of proportion. You are basically trying to do that all over again here, trying to turn this article into one on rigging and shooting down all legitimate scholarly analysis of the election as UNDUE and irrelevant. This is as blatant POV pushing as any I have seen. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 02:27, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
- Thank you for telling us your POV that the extent of rigging was minor. You have made it easier for me to identify and detect where in your content this POV will be pushed. On Wikipedia it is the scholars' POV which matters, not yours. And no scholar says or implies that the rigging was 'minor'. JosephusOfJerusalem (talk) 02:31, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
- That is not a satisfactory answer to justify your WP:UNDUE sentence. You did not summarize everything that the WP:RS had to say. Your content on rigging was shamelessly non-existent. In fact I had to create the section on rigging. You paid no attention to the appropriate WP:WEIGHT for rigging. You ignored the actual meat and sidetracked the article to irrelevant subjects. What really matters first is the lack of fairness and freedom in the election, as pointed out by Wilmalm. JosephusOfJerusalem (talk) 02:07, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
Scholars do say it, though not in so many words:
It is a known fact that those elections were rigged and the MUF was not able to get its candidates elected. It was going to get only about four candidates in, but they were not allowed in.[1]
It was another episode of J&K’s hallowed history since 1951 of farcical elections.[2]
...this atrocious episode of denial and subversion of democratic rights, processes, and institutions was no aberration: it was entirely consistent with Kashmir’s political fate in India’s democracy over the preceding forty years.[3]
It is an open secret amongst many observers that the people of Kashmir had witnessed a heavy dose of electoral malpractices even earlier on, especially in the 1967 and 1972 elections.[4]
This was far from the first case of vote-rigging; indeed, such rigging was the rule rather than the exception (see Habibullah 30-32 and Talbot and Singh 136; the discussion in Bose, Kashmir, is particularly compelling). But the scale and visibility of the corruption and the context in which it occurred made this a tipping point.[5]
Maroof Raza also tells us why it was done: This was allegedly done at Farooq's behest, because he was desirous of maintaining an independent political majority, even without the support of the Congress(I) party.
The alliance with the Congress forced Abdullah to get his majority with a smaller seat allocation. If he allowed the MUF to win four more seats, he would have lost his independent majority. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 03:31, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
References
- ^ Foreign Affairs Committee (2007), South Asia: fourth report of session 2006-07, report, together with formal minutes, oral and written evidence, The Stationery Office, Great Britain: Parliament: House of Commons, pp. 28–29, ISBN 978-0-215-03378-9
- ^ Bose, Sumantra (2013), Transforming India, Harvard University Press, p. 275, ISBN 978-0-674-72819-6
- ^ Bose, Sumantra (2003), Kashmir: Roots of Conflict, Paths to Peace, Harvard University Press, pp. 49–50, ISBN 0-674-01173-2
- ^ Raza, Maroof (1996), Wars and No Peace Over Kashmir, Lancer Publishers, p. 70, ISBN 978-1-897829-16-5
- ^ Hogan, Patrick Colm (2016), Imagining Kashmir: Emplotment and Colonialism, U of Nebraska Press, ISBN 978-0-8032-9487-5
All the scholars are saying is that this is, unsurprisingly, not the only case of electoral rigging in Kashmir. Thats an open secret. Nowhere are they saying that the rigging was 'minor'. You are not allowed to go an inch beyond the sources and add editorial interpretation. JosephusOfJerusalem (talk) 03:38, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
WP:UNDUE content
Kautilya3 you added back the contested content with a meretricious claim of consensus aided with your pinged friends on an unfinished discussion. I can ignore that for the meanwhile. What is pressing is that I looked through your replies to make sense of them and you said ″Besides, the MUF only contested seats in the Valley″. This has got me thinking then that there is no good reason why ″in the Valley″ should be emphasised with italics. It is WP:UNDUE. I am also thinking the same about the second half of Bose's assessment. If the MUF only contested seats in the Valley then we don't need content about statewide voted. The only reason I am reluctant for the interim to remove the second half of Bose is that it has been here for a long time and requires a different process to get binned, as opposed to the newer content. JosephusOfJerusalem (talk) 12:29, 24 February 2018 (UTC)