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This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Mgs1234 (article contribs).
Semi-protected edit request on 18 January 2019
in the Childhood part, can you change it from 23 months to 1 year and 11 months 185.39.202.226 (talk) 08:13, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
- Not done - it's common practice to list anything less than two years as combined months. Changing to years and months breaks the flow of the sentence and adds unnecessary complexity. Chaheel Riens (talk) 08:32, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 7 June 2019
Charlton Athletic fan. 213.106.89.77 (talk) 11:49, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 13:01, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 14 June 2019
Please can you change the key image to this image? I have permission to use the attached image, the credit should be: Photography Debra Hurford Brown © J.K. Rowling 2018
Tbp2018 (talk) 10:48, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- Not done: That photo does not exist. NiciVampireHeart 12:29, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- More to the point the photo has not been uploaded with the correct permissions. I suspect you were trying to link to an offline image, or one that is somewhere on the web - but not hosted either by Wikipedia or on Commons.
- I suggest you upload the image first, apply the necessary permissions for what seems to be an image with specific copyright details, and then try again. Chaheel Riens (talk) 12:41, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- Is this the one? Esowteric+Talk 13:05, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- If it is, I'd be willing to bet that the licensing info is incorrect and needs changing/correcting before it can be considered. Chaheel Riens (talk) 07:19, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Is this the one? Esowteric+Talk 13:05, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
WorldCat data in error for Pegasus article?
The data for an article mentioned in the section on Rowling's education is wrong. It says the year of Rowling's article "What was the Name of that Nymph Again?" from Pegasus, the journal of the University of Exeter's Classics department is 1988. However, I found a PDF of that article which clearly dates it as 1998. Not to mention that Rowling mentions Professor Binns in the article; the Potterverse wasn't even a gleam in her eye in 1988.
I think whoever wrote the citation got the date from WorldCat. 1988 is written in the Publisher field, but I don't know that necessarily means the article should be dated 1988.
A Princeton library has the correct date for it online. I suppose I could just change the citation to the Princeton library instead of WorldCat, but I find that untidy.
Should I try to change the WorldCat data? It seems like you have to be affiliated with some library in order to request changes. Quickfoot (talk) 01:05, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
Education section
The Education section notes J.K. Rowling's "What was the Name of that Nymph Again? or Greek and Roman Studies Recalled" as being published in 1988, but it appears to have been published in 1998 as found within the Journal of the University of Exeter Department of Classics And Ancient History on a University website at: https://blogs.exeter.ac.uk/pegasus/files/2013/06/41-1998.pdf
AndrewHeagle (talk) 11:41, 9 January 2020 (UTC)Andrew Heagle
Why add the the maya forsater situation and TERF accusations with biased sources
This is clearly a case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT, WP:OTHERSTUFF and also WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. Reasoning has been explained several times with no change to the OP's attitude. This will clearly go nowhere. |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Is it because wikipedia editors are now toxics SJWs . I mean, brie larson gets a free pass with her man hating views on wikipedia but Jk Rowling is accused without proof . People cant add man hating to brie Larson article because wikipedia isnt a gossip rag but TERF can be added to Jk Rowling ? With one tweet and biased sources ? Talk about hypocrisy. This should apply to brie as well- if you add Terf to JKR you should be able to add Man hating to Brie . Gossip rag argument is moot point if your willing to vilify one person on the bases of poor gossip sources but not the other. People can't make edits to articles of other celebs like brie Larson because of poor sources and wikipedia not being a gossip rag YET here we are with gossip sources for Jk Rowling. Even if people change the maya situation, it will be reverted by some SJW editor . Don't get me started on Johnny Depp being abused by amber heard and online tapes being released - someone on wiki said these tapes were doctored. Anything to believe woman as if woman cant do harm. Their are woman criminals. Hypocrisy 101 is showing and it must end . Social justice doesn't equal to equality but reverse revenge . Hpdh4 12:11, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
A specific BLP article is not the place to discuss general claims about "fairness of being allowed to add controversial material said or done by celebs to their respective articles". Chaheel Riens (talk) 11:17, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
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Similar controversies
I recently edited this article to remove the line Similar controversies have arisen with regards to her liking tweets which some considered to be transphobic
. This line was initially supported by a PinkNews source, which I removed per WP:RSP, and by articles from Vox and LGBTQ Nation, both of which can be considered reliable sources. However, neither article would appear to effectively support that sentence. The Vox source was in fact previously used to support this sentence Media outlets stated that Rowling had expressed controversial views on transgender issues prior to this incident, with some describing her as transphobic
which I removed in this edit [1] as it appeared to be a generalisation, not supported as per WP:3REFS. Retrospectively, this source does not adequately support the remaining sentence, as it principally covers the Forstater case, with the rest of the article being social media speculation, making it WP:UNDUE as a source for the sentence. The LGBTQ Nation source relies entirely on speculation regarding social media. I do not believe that there is enough reliable coverage to support the sentence, per WP:3REFS and that to include it based on the sources given would be WP:UNDUE for a WP:BLP. I would therefore propose to revert to the edit here [2]. AutumnKing (talk) 19:19, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks for discussing. It won't be hard to find additional Rowling's opinions on transgender issues, and I'll happily add them over the next couple of days. Minimising coverage of negative opinions of transgender issues and activism seems to be a particular interest of yours, but coverage of such opinions does seem to be on the increase. Note that social media such as Twitter can be used as a reliable source. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 22:18, 6 June 2020 (UTC) --- Huh. Timely tweets tonight. She and Gl*nner seem to do this a lot! BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 22:25, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Bastun: References to news coverage of the tweets and subsequent commentary will be better than linking to WP:PRIMARY tweets and snippets. Should wait before expanding on the recent controversy, though the previous Forstater controversy needs some better expansion itself. Gotitbro (talk) 04:48, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
- Oh, absolutely. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 08:31, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
- Clearly current events have overtaken things here, hence my strike through. From a Wikipedia perspective, Rowling's latest comments, and the subsequent coverage they have generated, should prove helpful to editors. I would suggest that editors refrain from throwing aspersions at other Wiki editors, as has been done on this talk page. My aim, as I would hope is the aim of most editing here, is to edit Wikipedia and particularly BLP's fairly, keeping balance and context in mind, and attempting to avoid personal bias/agendas. Passing judgement on others supposed motivations is neither helpful, in the spirit of collaboration or general politeness. AutumnKing (talk) 20:02, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
- I stand by my comment. Your contributions speak for themselves and appear to be aimed at minimising, specifically, coverage of negative opinions of transgender issues. That is contrary to Wikipedia's policy of neutrality. You could of course prove me wrong by supporting the inclusion of coverage "the subsequent coverage they have generated", which you say above that you support. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 20:12, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
Twitter is far from reliable unless it comes from proven sources making use of Twitter like for example a journalist. When your information comes from multiple tweeters its incorrect. Hate to see wikipedia fall to tabloid standards over unproven allegations and virtue signaling. Hpdh4 11:57, 8 June 2020 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by HPDEATHLYHALLOWS4 (talk • contribs)
Per WP:NOTEVERYTHING, especially WP:NOTNEWS and WP:NOTSOAPBOX, and keeping in mind the reasoning at WP:RECENTISM, we should not include every single flash-in-the-pan piece of commentary. As of right now, regarding her June tweets, we have what the tweets were about, their criticism, and, for WP:NPOV, the WP:BLP subject's response, all covered by WP:Secondary sources. This is more than enough coverage of this extremely recent incident. Crossroads -talk- 20:10, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
- Agreed, we should not include every flash in the pan response. I added some criticism of Rowling's most recent anti-trans tweets yesterday, made by several notable people not directly associated with her, which were subsequently removed, and on balance, that's probably the correct decision. Keeping in mind WP:NOTPAPER, WP:BALANCE, WP:TENYEARRULE, however, the criticism of her tweets by Daniel Radcliffe which was reported today most certainly is proper to include. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 23:25, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
- Why? Because he's Harry Potter? What about Evanna Lynch's response? Should we include it too? Serendipodous 23:52, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
- No, because he's responding via the Trevor Project after years of collaboration with them, making it pretty much their official comment, even if his name is on the open letter. Why is GLAAD okay but The Trevor Project not? YuvalNehemia (talk) 04:32, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
- We don't need two advocacy groups' detailed comments. Remember, this is a flash in the pan source-wise. It should be kept brief. Crossroads -talk- 04:41, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
- So why does her reply belong here? Just state the outline of the controversy and link to Politics of J. K. Rowling#Transgender rights. Why is her reply significant enough for the main article, but The Trevor Project's is not? Especially if the latter got more media attention? YuvalNehemia (talk) 04:45, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
- Because: [3] and [4] Crossroads -talk- 04:50, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
- That explains quite well why we shouldn't include stuff like Mara Wilson's brilliant reply, and also why we probably shouldn't include Rowling's reply (to your notice). But not why we shouldn't have The Trevor Project. I mean, GLAAD's response is quite clearly not news, and therefore is included. Same for the Trevor Project. YuvalNehemia (talk) 04:55, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
- Because: [3] and [4] Crossroads -talk- 04:50, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
- So why does her reply belong here? Just state the outline of the controversy and link to Politics of J. K. Rowling#Transgender rights. Why is her reply significant enough for the main article, but The Trevor Project's is not? Especially if the latter got more media attention? YuvalNehemia (talk) 04:45, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
- We don't need two advocacy groups' detailed comments. Remember, this is a flash in the pan source-wise. It should be kept brief. Crossroads -talk- 04:41, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
- No, because he's responding via the Trevor Project after years of collaboration with them, making it pretty much their official comment, even if his name is on the open letter. Why is GLAAD okay but The Trevor Project not? YuvalNehemia (talk) 04:32, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
- Why? Because he's Harry Potter? What about Evanna Lynch's response? Should we include it too? Serendipodous 23:52, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
- That explains nothing. :-) No valid reason for excluding Radcliffe's response on behalf of the Trevor Project has been presented. Given the inextricable links between Radcliffe and Rowling, excluding any mention of his response - especially given the coverage it has received - would actually seem perverse. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 20:12, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
- I added a mention of Radcliffe's comments before seeing this conversation. Sorry, I would've discussed the issue first if I had known it was controversial. Radcliffe's and Redmayne's comments are included in more than enough RS to show they are notable. I believe it also belongs according to WP:NOTNEWS as well since this seems to be more than a routine reporting and are not overemphasized in the article. Rab V (talk) 20:28, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
- That explains nothing. :-) No valid reason for excluding Radcliffe's response on behalf of the Trevor Project has been presented. Given the inextricable links between Radcliffe and Rowling, excluding any mention of his response - especially given the coverage it has received - would actually seem perverse. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 20:12, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
Thinking about this more, and looking at the coverage now, if editors want to mention commentary from Radcliffe via The Trevor Project, then I suppose that makes sense. Still, I think the June 2020 material that is critical of Rowling should be kept short enough to be a single paragraph that is not unusually long, per WP:NOTNEWS and WP:RECENTISM. I also don't think we necessarily need to mention Eddie Redmayne and Evanna Lynch's responses, as they are individuals who say basically the same things as GLAAD and The Trevor Project. But my main issue is watching out for excessive length or detail. Rab V, your version of it was summarized well. But let's see what others say on including the mention of the Lynch and Redmayne comments. Crossroads -talk- 20:57, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks. Agree about how long it should be. I'd also say the current version is too long when discussing her blog post per WP:NOTNEWS and seems to be written with a bit of a slant. Right now it's seeming like Redmayne's comments are getting a lot of traction in RS but not Lynch so I think a brief mention of Redmayne may be due though it is similar to other comments. Rab V (talk) 21:16, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
- My main concern is also keeping things brief. I would probably cut things down to two paragraphs, one about Rowling's views and one about the backlash. That is roughly how this AP article organizes things, focusing largely on Rowling's views in the first half then the backlash in the second. Regarding the criticism from Harry Potter actors: I think it's worth including, as long as it's kept as brief as possible. Radcliffe's, Lynch's, Watson's, and Redmayne's criticism have all gotten headline coverage. WanderingWanda (talk) 03:12, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
- I prefer the current ordering, which is the same as the Reuters piece.
- Regarding Rab V's tweaks to the summary I wrote of the Reuters piece:
- 1. The bit about
some of which [criticism] had been in the form of abusive language and threats of violence
should be mentioned. Reuters, as a news service, is a superior source to various entertainment magazines, and they saw fit to mention this. It gives context to what she goes on to say about having suffered violence, and is part of the background complexity of the situation. - 2. It was claimed that
She expressed concern that some young women were being persuaded to escape womanhood via gender transition, noting her own struggles as a teenager.
wasconfusing and not in source
. I don't feel too strongly about including this sentence, even though Reuters emphasizes this point, but I need to address the claim it was not in the source. Here is the supporting text:Rowling, 54, explained in detail her research and beliefs on trans issues, and the concerns she has about how women’s rights and some young people’s lives were being impacted by some forms of trans activism....“I’ve wondered whether, if I’d been born 30 years later, I too might have tried to transition,” she wrote. “The allure of escaping womanhood would have been huge.” She said that as a teenager she had struggled with severe Obsessive–Compulsive Disorder (OCD) and that she now believes that had she found community and sympathy online, she could have been persuaded to turn herself into the boy her father said he would have preferred.
I'm not sure where the confusion lay, but adjustments can be made of course. - 3. She
never stateddidn't just saythat allowing trans women access to single-sex spaces [was] dangerous
. Note the Reuters source carefully:she did not want girls and women to be less safe, and she gave some examples of where she thought demands by trans people were dangerous to women. “When you throw open the doors of bathrooms and changing rooms to any man who believes or feels he’s a woman ... then you open the door to any and all men who wish to come inside.”
(Emphasis added.) She is clearly stating that the issue goes beyond trans women - that certain criteria for access allow persons who are not trans women and do not actually identify as women to gain access for other reasons ("any and all"). We can't attribute to her a position different from the one actually held. - 4. On
She stated that many women consider terms like "people who menstruate" to be demeaning, comparing them to degrading slurs that have been used against women.
, thecomparing them to degrading slurs that have been used against women.
portion was cut off. I think this should stay because so much of the recent commentary revolves around the "people who menstruate" phrase, which we already quote, we should mention why specifically she objected to it beyond vaguely calling it "demeaning". Crossroads -talk- 07:30, 11 June 2020 (UTC) correcting Crossroads -talk- 15:27, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
- My main concern is also keeping things brief. I would probably cut things down to two paragraphs, one about Rowling's views and one about the backlash. That is roughly how this AP article organizes things, focusing largely on Rowling's views in the first half then the backlash in the second. Regarding the criticism from Harry Potter actors: I think it's worth including, as long as it's kept as brief as possible. Radcliffe's, Lynch's, Watson's, and Redmayne's criticism have all gotten headline coverage. WanderingWanda (talk) 03:12, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
- Agree with keeping this brief, to two to three paragraphs. Expanding as necessary when there is another such controversy (the current controversy did not exist when this talk page section was started). Re Crossroads' comments, (3), her quote not only misgenders trans women but absolutely does imply that allowing trans women are dangerous. Re (4), I do know for a fact that those remarks insulted and demeaned post-menopausal women and women and those who have had hysterectomies. That should also be covered. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 08:37, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
- I see the Radcliffe/Trevor Project material was removed again. Consensus now seems to favour inclusion. I propose including a sentence about the criticism from Radcliffe, Watson and other HP stars, including reference to the Trevor Project. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 10:12, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
- If there is ever another such controversy, I don't support adding another paragraph, per NOTNEWS. Since the topic is politically charged and entertainment sources cover every little thing celebrities say (both Rowling and each person reacting), we get a bunch of different flashes in the pan that say nothing new substantive. I'd say this section should max out at three reasonably sized paragraphs, one of which is about her response(s), rather than adding another paragraph in August and another in January and so on. If new incidents occur, we can make it less about specific incidents and more about comments that sources have made about the overall pattern of statements. Regarding point #3, she does do that, but it also is about men as I explained. Regarding #4, you can't know that for a fact as that is an opinion. That opinion is not of any note - it's just some random person on Twitter who never even said they were a post-menopausal woman or a woman with a hysterectomy. Crossroads -talk- 15:19, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
- I see the Radcliffe/Trevor Project material was removed again. Consensus now seems to favour inclusion. I propose including a sentence about the criticism from Radcliffe, Watson and other HP stars, including reference to the Trevor Project. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 10:12, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
- Yeah, re-working the section next time there's a controversy works too. As long as it's not "there can never be more than we have now", obviously. Looking at other biographies, when you stop being notable for your former field and are now mainly known for your new area of interest, that latter topic will be covered in increasing depth. That's only proper, per WP:DUE. Re 4, I can't know what for a fact? NME covered one tweet out of dozens or more that replied in exactly the same fashion to Rowling's tirade - many, many cancer survivors, menopausal women, etc., responded. It's not hard to find those tweets. I suspect you're aware of them, though, and your removal of that response was disingenuous. Reuters is not the gold standard as sources go, and NME is a perfectly valid source, by the way. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 17:40, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
- Responding to the comments Crossrads made about my edits: They are mainly done since the paragraph was overlong considering NOTNEWS. (1) The phrase from the source "At times, the criticism has taken the form of abusive language and threats of violence" is incredibly vauge. What is abusive language, when was it used, who is saying it, was this why she wrote the essay? Later in the source it goes on to describe her being compared to Voldemort as abuse. Also Reuters is not a superior source necessarily, we have to decide which parts of this story are featured prominently across RS in general to figure out what is appropriate to share and what isn't WP:DUE. (2) The source talks about her worry about how trans activism imapcts her life and whether she might've transitioned. It doesn't explicitly state young people now are transitioning now who shouldn't. The phrase "escaping womanhood" is an unusual and confusing wording for transition to male and calling people who transition to male "women" goes against wikipedia policy. (3) 'A man who believes or feels he is a woman' is a charged way to refer to a trans woman. I don't think the article or the preponderance of RS support that she isn't talking about fears around trans women. (4) Sentence was overlong for NOTNEWS, not sure the removed material signigicantly to readers' understanding of Rowling's position. Rab V (talk) 18:16, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
- Yeah, re-working the section next time there's a controversy works too. As long as it's not "there can never be more than we have now", obviously. Looking at other biographies, when you stop being notable for your former field and are now mainly known for your new area of interest, that latter topic will be covered in increasing depth. That's only proper, per WP:DUE. Re 4, I can't know what for a fact? NME covered one tweet out of dozens or more that replied in exactly the same fashion to Rowling's tirade - many, many cancer survivors, menopausal women, etc., responded. It's not hard to find those tweets. I suspect you're aware of them, though, and your removal of that response was disingenuous. Reuters is not the gold standard as sources go, and NME is a perfectly valid source, by the way. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 17:40, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
X-posted from Talk:Politics of J.K. Rowling and directed at Crossroads: "Let's see what develops" apparently means just cutting out the material. This article is specifically about Rowling's politics, but you're just cutting the addition, because 'notnews'? It's literally news. 1.6 million ghits right now. WP:IDONTLIKEIT is not a reason for excision or excluding very relevant, referenced material content. You need to seriously address your POV issues. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 23:53, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
- Your reply there was to a days-old comment. I stopped objecting to an addition about Radcliffe and the Trevor Project. Other editors, though, also have a say. You need to actually read WP:NOTNEWS. Once you do, you'll see that "It's literally news" is a very poor argument for inclusion. Don't forget WP:IDONTLIKEIT's twin, WP:ILIKEIT. And you are hereby warned to stop attacking me. "Comment on content, not on the contributor." - WP:NPA. Crossroads -talk- 04:19, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
- Can I ask, what's your obsession with Reuters? It's no more or less reliable than any other reliable source, such as Variety, Entertainment Weekly, or The Guardian. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 15:21, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
- See WP:RSP. Obviously, outlets that are mainstream journalism are more reliable than entertainment magazines. Crossroads -talk- 16:00, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
- Can I ask, what's your obsession with Reuters? It's no more or less reliable than any other reliable source, such as Variety, Entertainment Weekly, or The Guardian. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 15:21, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
- I'm very aware of WP:RSP. It quite often makes subtle distinctions for specific outlets, but y'know what? It's perfectly valid to use sources other than Reuters, especially when they're listed on WP:RSP as reliable. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 16:31, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
@Abbyjjjj96: the reasoning behind giving weight to Radcliffe's response is overlayed here. YuvalNehemia (talk) 06:21, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
- Rowling's lack of enthusiasm for the English language bending in until-recently-strange ways, and making it clear that having lived as a woman in the entire biological sense has shaped who she is and what she does, while also repeatedly making it very clear she's supportive of trans rights and was way ahead of the curve on that – this is not "transphobic". Even some trans activists are saying it is not and that labeling her that way will hurt their own cause. It's just extremist noise and is not encyclopedic material. Every time someone somewhere gets mad at some tweet, we do not need to write about it in the encyclopedia. This is not EmpheralMessagesAndEmotionsPedia.
Activism organizations and publication may be reliable sources for certain things, but they are absolutely not for their activistic messages and labeling; that is pure primar-source material, by definition. That Variety published everything I just summarized, yet still put "transphobic" in their headline, unqualified, as if this were a world-wide consensus instead of a minority and extreme and self-defeatist opinion, simply means that the magazine needs a better editor. Entertainment magazines (which is most of the sources for this stuff) are not reliable sources for socio-political matters, anyway; they're reliable for things like whether so-and-so celebrity got divorced from thus-and-such other celebrity, and for what whatshername was seen wearing at her movie premiere last week, and how unhappy whatshisname says he is with his album being a flop because the pandemic killed his promo tour. As for the spousal-abuse thing, there has been a little bit of press about this, but it's more using her as an example, not making an example of her, as it were. The incident is not central to Rowling as a public figure, as an encyclopedia subject; rather, people are using her celebrity to draw attention to the overall social problem of domestic violence. It's not our job to dwell on the old private-life matters of bio subjects (especially living ones), even if some other publishers are doing so. If we mention this at all, it should be in-context, in the material about her marriage and divorce; not in some "controversies" section that is getting more and more like a drama-mongering trivia section.
— SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 07:17, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
Should Transgender Essay be Included in Non-Fiction?
I vote yes; it is a much talked about piece, and seems to have been written more as a true essay, rather than simply as a blog post. Inspector Semenych (talk) 20:38, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
- In my view, no, it should not be listed in the "non-fiction" section at this time; it's better handled in the "views"/"gender identity" section. If it gets continuing coverage, and/or coverage as a significant non-fiction work rather than just a(nother) expression of her views on gender identity, then I would re-evaluate it at that time. ... Frankly, the fact that we're listing even some individual Guardian articles also seems questionable; I did not think these sections were intended to be comprehensive lists of everything a person had ever written, but only of notable/important works, but I may be mistaken there... -sche (talk) 03:42, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
Jacobs / Sun paragraph
The paragraph about the Sun publishing, and being reprimanded for publishing, her husband saying her slapped her ... is currently in the "Views"→"Transgender issues" section, but does not ever mention or relate itself to transgender issues. So, it seems like it should be moved. Perhaps the sentence which says "Biographers have suggested that Rowling suffered domestic abuse during her marriage," which was recently expanded with "which was later confirmed by Rowling herself", should be further expanded with "...and by her first husband" + whatever additional details are actually DUE here (and we might want to discuss whether someone who is not the article subject reprimandng a paper for publishing something by someone else who is not the article subject is DUE here as opposed to in the article on e.g. the newspaper which was reprimanded). -sche (talk) 20:29, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
- It was me who created this paragraph, I am not necessarily against moving it, but where do we move it to? Although your last sentence was very convoluted, not sure I followed it, sche. PatGallacher (talk) 20:39, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
- OK, I moved the paragraph up, into the part of the article that talks about the marriage and about the domestic abuse. For now, I left in the sentence about Jacobs reprimanding the Sun, although it's kind of ... straying off of the topic of this article? (But I don't feel strongly enough to remove it. Another idea for consideration is to make it a {{efn}}, though.) -sche (talk) 21:18, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
- Hi all. I added the bit about Jacobs and believe it should stay as context pivotal to a full understanding of the outcry against The Sun. Without that statement from Jacobs, it's not in itself clear why The Sun's publishing choices have been formally found to be reprehensible (the quote from the ex-husband is not enough... "he slapped her and he's not sorry" does not in itself adequately convey that his actions are domestic violence and therefore criminal). Thoughts welcome. Zedembee (talk) 01:20, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
Support for Rowling on Trans issues
Support of Rowling's stance on Transgender issues should be included as much as critique is included. Excluding support for her comments is indicative of an obvious bias in support of the gender narrative and isn't conducive to wikipedias main purpose. Some would debate adding any information is controversial and that adding support that doesn't come from Potter cast isn't proper. Support is support no matter who it comes from as in the case of Transgender pop singer Dana International who spoke in support of Rowling. I will add the supporters to counteract the detractors who are motivated by publicity reasons . Hpdh4 16:08, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
- I think that would apply to an article on the controversy surrounding Rowling's tweets, should we decide we need one. Serendipodous 17:38, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
- Please read Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Positions should be represented proportional to their weight in RS. Including Dana when HP stars only get brief mentions would be WP:FALSEBALANCE.Rab V (talk) 17:57, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
- Mermaids, an LGBTQ+ charity, gets a single sentence, and the CEO of GLAAD doesn't get a mention, despite her not insignificant response to Rowling's essay. With all due respect to Dana, her opinion doesn't matter for the purposes of this article. YuvalNehemia (talk) 18:41, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
- Please read Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Positions should be represented proportional to their weight in RS. Including Dana when HP stars only get brief mentions would be WP:FALSEBALANCE.Rab V (talk) 17:57, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
Dana's opinions matter more then Radcliffe,Glaad,Mermaids, Watson,Lynch,Redmayne,Wright . Dana is actually transgender. Opinions of the person from the actual group matters more then that of controversial organizations like mermaids or PR driven actors . Plus it's a situation of Us vs Them . Having only Rowlings detractors is bias as it assumes Rowling is entirely wrong when people like Dana agrees with her to an extent. Support as much as critique should be included . Even a neutral sentence should be included like : Rowling's claims have garnered some support and then have the Reuters/dana article used as a citation. Hpdh4 19:28, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
- Mermaids is a major nonprofit transgender advocacy organisation, and therefore carries much more weight than that of a single random trans person. Furthermore, you seem to still be misunderstanding what a neutral point of view means in relation to Wikipedia and transphobia. Transphobia is a fringe position, and therefore should be given less weight on this website than the opposite. Licks-rocks (talk) 21:56, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
No I am starting to understand one thing from this: theirs a bias against Rowlings comments. I still stand by my original position; Both CRITIQUE and SUPPORT should be included to avoid being seen as giving creditability to one side only. It isn't neutral if theirs only critique from PR driven actors and a controversial transRIGHTS organization. Neutral is this : Rowling's statements regarding transgender issues have generated controversy and have garnered both criticism and support from an assortment of celebrities and organizations. Hpdh4 22:09, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
- please consider undue weight--Licks-rocks (talk) 22:39, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, there likely is a bias against Rowling's comments in the real world - LGBT rights issues have included the 'T' since - well, Stonewall, actually and literally, if not before. They're pretty key. To have someone who wrote the HP books apparently miss the point of her own writing by such a distance, and to have her punch down on trans women, women who've had hysterectomies, and post-menopausal women, was shocking for many. Radcliffe's response explains why far better than I can. So it is entirely due to feature the response of GLAAD, The Trevor Project, and Mermaids, all significant organisations, plus the reaction of the actors synonymous with the HP films. Dana International is relevant to JK Rowling how, exactly? You're new here - please read WP:NPOV and WP:DUE. Regards, BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 22:59, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
You prove my point Batsun. This site is supposed to be neutral and report things as is. Agendas are left at the table . Fairness demands both criticism and support exist in the same article section. Dont play the new card when your blatantly against Rowling. I'm neither against her and nor am I with her. I just want both criticism and and support to be included. Information should not be excluded on the basis of whose relavent or not and definitely not be excluded on the basis of a editors personal agenda. Somebody else will include Dana's support and I can't wait for the blow up . Hpdh4 00:06, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
- The proper point of comparison is with the comments of the Harry Potter actors. Including those, and not those of a notable transgender woman, whose comments were treated as noteworthy by Reuters (and elsewhere), and creating the impression that all celebrities condemned Rowling, is what creates WP:FALSEBALANCE. Simply having played a character in the Harry Potter movies does not give one special authority in this matter. It takes some sort of intellectual gerrymandering to say that their opinions need to be included, but those of an actual transgender woman do not. It's still clear that many other trans people do not feel the way Dana International does because we have comments from groups like GLAAD. Crossroads -talk- 03:36, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
I mean, in theory I have no problem with the inclusion of Dana International's opinions, it's just that there are quite a few trans people's opinions that disagree with her, and there's no reason to give her more weight over them. So if Dana's opinion gets included, it is only fitting that we include quite a lot more of trans opinions, making this chapter the longest in the article. Also, there is no need to defend Rowling more than her own defence if several professional organisations (the Trevor Project, GLAAD, Mermaids) condemn her entire behaviour in this controversy. YuvalNehemia (talk) 06:16, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
mermaids
Is the uk times a reliable enough source to label mermaids as controversial? From my understanding it's up there with the daily mail in terms of manufacturing fake controversies. EDIT: see also the wikipedia page about mermaids itself which does not refer to them as such.--Licks-rocks (talk) 22:52, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
- to expand on this further: should we call a charity controversial if the subject it raises money for is already controversial? I feel the current wording implies that there is something nefarious going on with this charity beyond it dealing with potentially controversial subject matter, which, going by the charity's wikipedia page and my knowledge of it, doesn't seem to be the case--Licks-rocks (talk) 23:16, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
@Britmax: pinging you since you reverted my edit on this --Licks-rocks (talk) 23:18, 15 June 2020 (UTC)