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:At least at first glance/first research the "controversy" over the pen name feels rather hyped and constructed to me. So as long as this isn't seriously considered in scholarly sources, I'd strongly oppose the inclusion. Finding a "bad" (but not particular well known) person with similar name and few people speculating in social media or a few press outlets, that Rowling might have picked her pen name intentionally after that person (despite her giving a different explanation) is imho borderline ridiculous and certainly no reason for inclusion into an encyclopedic biography. At this point the whole thing is essentially a baseless rumour/speculation, which deserves no mentioning. Unless it becomes rather highly publicised/well known meme, that describing it might be justified, but the judgement for that would be via scholarly literature dealing with it in a significant fashion.--[[User:Kmhkmh|Kmhkmh]] ([[User talk:Kmhkmh|talk]]) 14:10, 28 June 2023 (UTC) |
:At least at first glance/first research the "controversy" over the pen name feels rather hyped and constructed to me. So as long as this isn't seriously considered in scholarly sources, I'd strongly oppose the inclusion. Finding a "bad" (but not particular well known) person with similar name and few people speculating in social media or a few press outlets, that Rowling might have picked her pen name intentionally after that person (despite her giving a different explanation) is imho borderline ridiculous and certainly no reason for inclusion into an encyclopedic biography. At this point the whole thing is essentially a baseless rumour/speculation, which deserves no mentioning. Unless it becomes rather highly publicised/well known meme, that describing it might be justified, but the judgement for that would be via scholarly literature dealing with it in a significant fashion.--[[User:Kmhkmh|Kmhkmh]] ([[User talk:Kmhkmh|talk]]) 14:10, 28 June 2023 (UTC) |
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:Link to [[Talk:J._K._Rowling/Archive_14#Robert_Galbraith_name|the previous time]] this issue came up. I don't see much change in the sourcing since then, so I agree with the consensus there (don't include). [[User:Olivaw-Daneel|Olivaw-Daneel]] ([[User talk:Olivaw-Daneel|talk]]) 17:02, 28 June 2023 (UTC) |
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UNDUE and low-quality source on Galbraith name
Outnproud, please see the message on your talk page regarding this edit warring on a contentious topic. Featured articles must use high quality sources, Rowling has explained her choice of the name, the addition is WP:UNDUE, and this article was the subject of a deep and broad recent Featured article review. You should gain consensus before reinstating text removed once. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:27, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
- The article, published by Time, doesn't strike me as particularly low-quality. Is there a specific problem with it? -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 13:48, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
- Not a particular problem; do a preponderance of highest quality sources (translation: scholarly) raise this issue ? Rowling chose the name before 2013; it stretches credibility to think her reasons were anything other than what she stated. If the consensus is to add text about this issue, it needs to be decided a) whether it is added here or the sub-article Political views of J. K. Rowling; b) a comprehensive survey of highest quality (scholarly) sources undertaken to assess due weight; and c) prose issues. Regardless of that outcome, edit warring on a contentious topic is a problem. Discuss first. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:18, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
- I'm trying to remember who has the full Pugh article (I have only the first chapter); @Victoriaearle: I believe you do? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:18, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
- I wouldn't describe Time as "low-quality", but it isn't high quality. The mention of the Robert Galbraith Heath controversy gets a passing mention in the Time article, and it goes on to restate Rowling's method of formulating the name.
- From a process perspective, both inclusion and exclusion of the content are not so drastically problematic that this is worth editing over. I urge Outnproud to self-revert. We're likely to reach rough consensus soonish. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 15:24, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
- Correct; taking the time to get it right is the fastest and best approach. My scholarly source search is only turning up masters theses, and quite a few articles that mention Galbraith without mentioning this controversy, but I don't have full journal access (hence my ping to Victoria, as google search reveals that Pugh does mention Galbraith). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:28, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
Regardless of that outcome, edit warring on a contentious topic is a problem. Discuss first.
– Mind you, I'm not the same person as Outnproud.I couldn't find any online news sources by websearch, but it didn't turn up the Time article or the one I'm about to mention either, so it might be a search term problem. The Time article links to this article in Them (which we AFAIK haven't had any problems with as a source) which does focus on this. This is still not that much, so might not be worth including, but I'd like to note that we haveAfter the revelation of her identity, sales of Cuckoo's Calling escalated.
in there, seemingly based on a two-sentence mention in the Guardian. The bar for including critical content shouldn't be higher than for content of laudatory nature. If we do include it, I think it'd be sensible to have it here where the pseudonym is also otherwise discussed, but Political views of J. K. Rowling does have a paragraph on Troubled Blood, so it could fit in there, too. -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 15:49, 14 June 2023 (UTC)- I'm unclear why you view that content as "laudatory"; it gives context for her donation of all of the proceeds to a charity (if I recall the story correctly, it's pretty astounding for a
paralegal at alaw firm partner to leak client-privileged information such that the law firm then has to make a charitable donation to avoid a malpractice suit ... as well as Rowling giving all proceeds to charity ... I could be misremembering, though, since I read all of these sources a year ago). Those are plain vanilla facts verifiable to many sources (that is, due weight; that only one source is listed does not mean only one source exists). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:15, 14 June 2023 (UTC)- SandyGeorgia, I sent the Pugh chapter that discusses her adult fiction. See page 116 for an explanation of the name. In my view what we had here is fine for this article; anything else can go to a subarticle. Apols for short reply; will try to look over it later.
I had a bit about this in a sandbox that might need to can be undeleted if we know an admin willing to do so.Victoria (tk) 16:29, 14 June 2023 (UTC) - Struck re sandbox. It's still there. Will trawl through as soon as a I can. Victoria (tk) 16:31, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
- SandyGeorgia, I sent the Pugh chapter that discusses her adult fiction. See page 116 for an explanation of the name. In my view what we had here is fine for this article; anything else can go to a subarticle. Apols for short reply; will try to look over it later.
- I'm unclear why you view that content as "laudatory"; it gives context for her donation of all of the proceeds to a charity (if I recall the story correctly, it's pretty astounding for a
- Correct; taking the time to get it right is the fastest and best approach. My scholarly source search is only turning up masters theses, and quite a few articles that mention Galbraith without mentioning this controversy, but I don't have full journal access (hence my ping to Victoria, as google search reveals that Pugh does mention Galbraith). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:28, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
- Not a particular problem; do a preponderance of highest quality sources (translation: scholarly) raise this issue ? Rowling chose the name before 2013; it stretches credibility to think her reasons were anything other than what she stated. If the consensus is to add text about this issue, it needs to be decided a) whether it is added here or the sub-article Political views of J. K. Rowling; b) a comprehensive survey of highest quality (scholarly) sources undertaken to assess due weight; and c) prose issues. Regardless of that outcome, edit warring on a contentious topic is a problem. Discuss first. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:18, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
- Not a problem with using Time as a source. Insisting on "scholarly sources" seems to be an unreasonably high and arbitrary bar. Also a single reversion is not an "edit war", so let's tamp down on that particular unfounded accusation./ Zaathras (talk) 16:56, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
- Do you want to test that (1RR) on a contentious topic ??? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:54, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
- Giving due weight to scholarly sources is not unreasonable on a Featured article (that's part of what an FA is). If we've got one or a few mid-rate reliable sources mentioning something that scholarly sources don't even consider, that's a WP:DUE consideration. But let's wait and see what others come up with from scholarly sources. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:56, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
- @Vanamonde93, AleatoryPonderings, and Olivaw-Daneel: re other sources (I've found two-- please number sources below for discussion purposes). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:25, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
1. (Ravell): I have found this 2023 source:
Could others give opinions on the quality of this source? Next, if it's a good source, how much weight (if any) do we want to give to what some fans think based on a tweet (notice the careful wording and attribution in the source):
Nonetheless, a tweet from the theme ‘transphobia’ brought to light that this pen name Rowling chose is the same name as an American psychiatrist who ‘experimented on a gay individual through the process of gay conversion theory ... [claiming] that homosexuality could be “cured”’ (see Figure 21). Rowling is yet to comment on this correlation, however according to tweets from this hashtag fans appear to not believe this name similarity was mere coincidence.
That's one source so far, making it clear it's an opinion based on a tweet. If we're going to start introducing opinions from one source based on one tweet, that's a floodgate. (Keeping discussion focused on sources has been the way we've resolved all content matters for two years now; there's no rush, and I also recommend that Outnproud self-revert and collaborate on talk. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:03, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
2. Pugh: I now have Chapter 7 of Pugh (the chapter devoted to Galbraith) and while it mentions how Rowling benefitted from the name, there is no mention whatsoever of this controversy, as far as I can tell from skimming. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:14, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
3. New York Times, 2013, [1].
The name she chose, Ms. Rowling explained, is a mash-up of that of one of her heroes, Robert F. Kennedy, and Ella Galbraith, a fantasy name she chose for herself as a girl.
Ms. Rowling wrote the book under a man’s name, she said, to take her writing persona “as far away as possible” from herself. She said she remembered too late that the American economist John Kenneth Galbraith, who died in 2006, shared her first two initials, and feared that might be a clue to her identity.
Victoria (tk) 19:36, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
That's one source so far
– The relevant section already cites popular sources liberally. Is there a good reason to insist on only academic sources here? As for the source itself, well. It's in a real journal. The author is a PhD student with an h-index of 0. The article itself has not been cited anywhere, though it is only a little over a week old. If we're just talking reliability, I'd say it's good enough to say that some people on Twitter think the name's an intentional reference. For considering weight, I did a little review of a few queer news sources/magazines (off the top of my head) to see what they have to say on this. Them has the article I mentioned above, plus two more that mention it ([2],[3]). Them seems like an okay source to me. I can't tell if it's been on RSN before as the title makes it very hard to search for. LGBTQ Nation mentions it ([4]). According to this RSN discussion, LGBTQ Nation has a tabloidical bent, and might be WP:MREL. PinkNews and The Advocate did not make the connection when discussing Rowling's work under the pseudonym. -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 19:33, 14 June 2023 (UTC)The relevant section already cites popular sources liberally
; what is an example of what you refer to from the relevant section? Yes, there are places in the article that use popular sources; generally all well discussed at the FAR and supported by multiple sources (DUE weight) and not controversial. If you see something different, pls give an example. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:39, 14 June 2023 (UTC)For considering weight, I did a little review of a few queer news sources/magazines (off the top of my head) to see what they have to say on this
; I could be misremembering (but I don't think I am). Whenever we used such sources, it was because they were saying the same things most other sources were also saying; we were giving a good representation of all sources, but not undue weight. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:42, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
The matter has been discussed and consensus appears to be that most editors don't have a problem with this information and it passes FA requirements. Cheers! Outnproud (talk) 13:07, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
- I don't see how you come to that conclusion, unless you are misunderstanding the discussion above relative to both WP:DUE and the WP:WIAFA requirement for high-quality sources. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:37, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
- And we haven't yet heard from the three main contributors of the article, who are the ones most familiar with and who have access to all the highest quality sources: @Vanamonde93, AleatoryPonderings, and Olivaw-Daneel:. I suspect the reason we haven't heard more is that the onus is upon you to come up with due weight from high-quality sources to support the content you want to add, and since you haven't done that, there has been little need for further discussion. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:41, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
- At least at first glance/first research the "controversy" over the pen name feels rather hyped and constructed to me. So as long as this isn't seriously considered in scholarly sources, I'd strongly oppose the inclusion. Finding a "bad" (but not particular well known) person with similar name and few people speculating in social media or a few press outlets, that Rowling might have picked her pen name intentionally after that person (despite her giving a different explanation) is imho borderline ridiculous and certainly no reason for inclusion into an encyclopedic biography. At this point the whole thing is essentially a baseless rumour/speculation, which deserves no mentioning. Unless it becomes rather highly publicised/well known meme, that describing it might be justified, but the judgement for that would be via scholarly literature dealing with it in a significant fashion.--Kmhkmh (talk) 14:10, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
- Link to the previous time this issue came up. I don't see much change in the sourcing since then, so I agree with the consensus there (don't include). Olivaw-Daneel (talk) 17:02, 28 June 2023 (UTC)