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{{Press|author=Stephen Foley |date=2009-02-03 |url=http://www.independent.ie/business/technology/is-wikipedia-cracking-up-1625816.html|title=Is Wikipedia cracking up?|org=[[Irish Independent]] |section=February 2009 |
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{{press|small=yes|author=Stephen Foley |date=2009-02-03 |url=http://www.independent.ie/business/technology/is-wikipedia-cracking-up-1625816.html|title=Is Wikipedia cracking up?|org=[[Irish Independent]] |section=February 2009}} |
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|author2 = Hava Mendelle |
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|title2 = JK Rowling puts Wikipedia’s neutrality to the test |
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|date2 = April 22, 2024 |
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|org2 = [[The Spectator Australia]] |
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| title = JK Rowling Net Worth |
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== Transgender |
== "Transgender people" section should be re-titled as "Transphobia" == |
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Why are we white-washing her transphobic views? Representing overt transphobia as simply her "views on transphobic people" is reductive. It makes her views sound way more benign than they really are, violating NPOV in the process. [[Special:Contributions/98.116.173.242|98.116.173.242]] ([[User talk:98.116.173.242|talk]]) 02:42, 26 April 2024 (UTC) |
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: No, it shouldn't. Because it labels her, and leaves no room in a section like that for any supportive or neutral views of transgender people, and this is a [[WP:BLP]] which must maintain a [[WP:NPOV|neutral point of view]]. There is no ban on representing her transphobia in a section entitled Views on Transgender people, and well-sourced content on her transphobic views are welcome in that section. The heading is fine as it stands. [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 02:59, 26 April 2024 (UTC) |
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::Reinforcing this - [[WP:BLP]] has a very specific and strident set of guidelines about how we can refer to a person and, in order for us to just say "Rowling is a transphobe," we would need the vast preponderance of reliable sources, including, in her case, academic sources to say "Rowling is a transphobe." Otherwise we simply cannot. That's why you'll see the fiddly and fussy discussions over minutia above. There's a pretty widespread sentiment right now that the article, as it stands, is not neutral or accurate regarding how Rowling has expressed her political views surrounding the rights of trans people. And a lot of effort is going into trying to correct that within the bounds of what we can do on Wikipedia. For more, though, we must use other venues than Wikipedia. [[User:Simonm223|Simonm223]] ([[User talk:Simonm223|talk]]) 13:23, 26 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:No it shouldn't, for reasons already explained. {{pb}} But since Rowling's comments have been made in the context of changes to laws, a more apt section heading would be something like Transgender rights. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 14:17, 3 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:98.116.173.242: This is an idea riddled with bias and cannot be accepted. I agree with @[[User:Simonm223|Simonm223]], this page is very left-leaning and biased. I think it needs radical changes, personally. [[User:Scientelensia|Scientelensia]] ([[User talk:Scientelensia|talk]]) 14:21, 6 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::I think you should probably go back and re-read what I said. Because my concern is that it is not neutral in that it under-plays the extent to which Rowling is transphobic but that we should make sure that changes happen within the appropriate boundaries of [[WP:BLP]]. [[User:Simonm223|Simonm223]] ([[User talk:Simonm223|talk]]) 14:57, 6 May 2024 (UTC) |
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== Reboot: Draft 6 (near final) == |
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::: First five drafts can be reviewed at [[#Proposed text for "Transgender people" section]]; previous discussions and source dumps in [[Talk:J. K. Rowling/Archive 16]]. |
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=== Draft 6 === |
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'''NOTE!!!!''' {{highlight|I have reversed the order (draft vs. historical) compared to earlier versions because it's easier to edit with the draft first.}} [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 16:53, 5 May 2024 (UTC) |
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{| class="wikitable" |
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! style="width: 30em;" | Draft 6: 459 words |
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! style="width: 30em;" | Historical: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=J._K._Rowling&oldid=1202117364#Transgender_people 429 words] |
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|| {{Main|Political views of J. K. Rowling#Transgender rights}} |
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<!-- Overview --> |
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Rowling espouses [[Feminist views on transgender topics#Gender-critical feminism and trans-exclusionary radical feminism|gender-critical]] views.{{sfn|Whited|2024|loc= p. 7. "But in June 2020, Rowling's manifesto led some people to label her as a trans-exclusionary radical feminist (TERF), a term first used in 2008 that has more recently evolved as 'gender critical'."}}{{sfn|Steinfeld|2020|loc= pp. 34–35. "Just ask JK Rowling and other women who have been labelled as Terfs"}}{{sfn|Schwirblat|Freberg|Freberg|2022|loc= pp. 367–368. "This sparked a heated discussion within the Twitter community, one side buttressing Rowling's statements, and the other espousing her as a trans-exclusionary radical feminist (TERF)"}} Since 2017,{{sfn|Duggan|2021|pp=160–161}} she has written frequently about [[Transgender rights movement|transgender rights]], mostly in the context of proposed changes to UK gender recognition laws that would make it easier to [[transgender|transition]] without a medical diagnosis.<ref name= Milne2020>{{cite web|first1= Amber |last1=Milne|first2 = Rachel| last2 =Savage | url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-lgbt-rowling-explainer-trfn-idUSKBN23I3AI | title=Explainer: J. K. Rowling and trans women in single-sex spaces: what's the furore? | publisher=[[Reuters]] | date=11 June 2020 | access-date=6 April 2021 }}</ref><ref name= Brooks2020>{{Cite news|last=Brooks|first=Libby|date=11 June 2020|title=Why is JK Rowling speaking out now on sex and gender debate? |url= http://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/jun/11/why-is-jk-rowling-speaking-out-now-on-sex-and-gender-debate|access-date=14 January 2022 |work= [[The Guardian]] }}</ref><ref name=Kottasova2019>{{cite news |title= J.K. Rowling's 'transphobia' tweet row spotlights a fight between equality campaigners and radical feminists |first1= Ivana |last1= Kottasová |first2= Scottie |last2= Andrew |publisher= [[CNN]] |date= 20 December 2019|url= https://edition.cnn.com/2019/12/20/uk/jk-rowling-transgender-explainer-intl-gbr/index.html |access-date= 5 May 2024}}</ref>{{efn| |
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The laws and proposed changes are the UK [[Gender Recognition Act 2004]] and the Scotland [[Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill|Gender Recognition Reform Bill]]; related also are the UK [[Equality Act 2010]]{{sfn|Pedersen|2022|loc=Abstract}}{{sfn|Suissa|Sullivan|2021|pp=66–69}}{{sfn|Duggan|2021|loc=PDF pp. 14–15 (160–161)}} and the Scotland Gender Representation on Public Boards Act of 2018.<ref>{{cite news |last1=Watson |first1=Jeremy |title=JK Rowling donates £70k for legal challenge on defining a woman |date=18 February 2024 |url=https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/jk-rowling-donates-70k-for-legal-challenge-on-defining-a-woman-73tkvwq0b |work=[[The Times]] |access-date=5 May 2024|archive-url=https://archive.today/20240217200104/https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/jk-rowling-donates-70k-for-legal-challenge-on-defining-a-woman-73tkvwq0b |archive-date=17 February 2024 |url-status=live |url-access=subscription}}</ref> |
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}} She opposes gender self-recognition{{sfn|Whited|2024|p=7}}<ref name=BacksProtest>{{cite news |title= JK Rowling backs protest over Scottish gender bill |date= 6 October 2022|url= https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-63162533 |publisher= [[BBC News]] |access-date= 5 May 2024}}</ref>{{efn| |
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Rowling wrote in 2020: "The current explosion of trans activism is urging a removal of almost all the robust systems through which candidates for sex reassignment were once required to pass. A man who intends to have no surgery and take no hormones may now secure himself a Gender Recognition Certificate and be a woman in the sight of the law."<ref name=RowlingReasons/> |
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}} and suggests that children and [[cisgender]] women are threatened by trans women and trans-positive messages.{{sfn|Duggan|2021|p=161}} In April 2024, responding to [[Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Act 2021|Scotland's Hate Crime and Public Order Act]], she tweeted a list of trans women, writing that they are "men, every last one of them".<ref name=Brooks2024>{{cite news |last1=Brooks |first1=Libby |title=JK Rowling’s posts on X will not be recorded as non-crime hate incident |url=https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/apr/03/jk-rowling-comments-scotland-non-crime-hate-incident |work=[[The Guardian]] |date=3 April 2024 |access-date= 3 May 2024}}</ref> |
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<!-- History --> |
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Controversy over Rowling's gender-critical messaging accelerated in 2019 when she defended [[Maya Forstater]].{{sfn|Whited|2024|pp=6-8}} When Forstater's employment contract with the London branch of the [[Center for Global Development]] was not renewed after she expressed gender-critical views,{{sfn|Pugh|2020|p=7}} Rowling wrote that trans people should live in "peace and security", but questioned women being "force[d] out of their jobs for stating that sex is real".<ref name=Stack2019/>{{efn|A tribunal ruled in 2021 that Forstater's gender-critical views were protected under the 2010 UK [[Equality Act 2010|Equality Act]].<ref name=Faulkner2021>{{cite news |first= Doug |last= Faulkner |url= https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-57426579 |title= Maya Forstater: woman wins tribunal appeal over transgender tweets |publisher= [[BBC News]] |date= 10 June 2021 |access-date= 26 March 2022}}</ref><ref name=Siddique2021>{{cite news |first= Haroon |last= Siddique |date= 10 June 2021 |title= Gender-critical views are a protected belief, appeal tribunal rules|url= https://www.theguardian.com/law/2021/jun/10/gender-critical-views-protected-belief-appeal-tribunal-rules-maya-forstater |work= [[The Guardian]] |access-date= 26 March 2022}}</ref>{{sfn|Pape|2022|p=230}} In July 2022, a new tribunal decision was published (''[[Forstater v Center for Global Development Europe]]'') ruling that Forstater had suffered direct discrimination from her employer.<ref>{{cite news |title=Maya Forstater: Woman discriminated against over trans tweets, tribunal rules|date=6 July 2022 |url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-62061929 |publisher=[[BBC News]] |access-date=6 July 2022}}</ref>}} According to ''Harry Potter'' scholar Lana Whited, in the next six months "Rowling herself fanned the flames as she became increasingly vocal".{{sfn|Whited|2024|p=6}} In June 2020,{{sfn|Whited|2024|p=6}} Rowling mocked the phrase "[[people who menstruate]]",<ref name=Gross2020>{{Cite news|last=Gross|first=Jenny|date=7 June 2020|title=Daniel Radcliffe criticizes J.K. Rowling's anti-transgender tweets|work=[[The New York Times]]|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/07/arts/Jk-Rowling-controversy.html |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200607221400/https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/07/arts/Jk-Rowling-controversy.html |archive-date=7 June 2020 |url-access=subscription |url-status=live|access-date=6 January 2022 }}</ref> and tweeted that [[women's rights]] and "lived reality" would be "erased" if "sex isn't real".{{sfn|Duggan|2021|pp=14–15}}{{sfn|Pugh|2020|p=7}} |
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Rowling's views have impacted her reputation. As her views on the [[legal status of transgender people]] came under scrutiny,{{sfn|Suissa|Sullivan|2021|pp=66–69}} she received insults and threats{{sfn|Suissa|Sullivan|2021|p=69}}{{sfn|Whited|2024|p=9}} and discussion moved beyond the Twitter community.{{sfn|Schwirblat|Freberg|Freberg|2022|p=368}} While her remarks provoked condemnation,{{sfn|Duggan|2021|loc=PDF pp. 14–15 (160–161)}}{{sfn|Schwirblat|Freberg|Freberg|2022|pp=367–369}}{{sfn|Pape|2022|pp=229–230, 238}} sales of ''Harry Potter'' books grew during the [[COVID-19]] lockdown.{{sfn|Pape|2022|p=238}}<ref> {{cite news |first=Mark |last= Sweney |title= Harry Potter books prove UK lockdown hit despite JK Rowling trans rights row |work= [[The Guardian]] |date= 21 July 2020 |url= https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jul/21/jk-rowling-book-sales-unaffected-by-transgender-views-row |access-date= 3 May 2024}}</ref> Fans turned away from her work and boycotted events, and publishers hesitated to accept her work.{{sfn|Whited|2024|p=8}} Criticism came from the ''Harry Potter'' fansites [[MuggleNet]] and [[The Leaky Cauldron (website)|The Leaky Cauldron]],{{sfn|Henderson|2022|p=224}} and [[LGBT]] charities [[Mermaids (charity)|Mermaids]],<ref name=Petter2020>{{Cite web|last= Petter|first=Olivia|date=17 September 2020|title=Mermaids writes open letter to JK Rowling following her recent comments on trans people|url=https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/mermaids-jk-rowling-transphobia-transgender-sexual-abuse-domestic-letter-a9565176.html|access-date=26 March 2022|work=[[The Independent]] |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200615235531/https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/mermaids-jk-rowling-transphobia-transgender-sexual-abuse-domestic-letter-a9565176.html |archive-date=15 June 2020}}</ref> [[Stonewall (charity)|Stonewall]],<ref>{{cite news | url=https://www.newstatesman.com/long-reads/2021/11/the-battle-for-stonewall-the-lgbt-charity-and-the-uks-gender-wars | title=The battle for Stonewall: the LGBT charity and the UK's gender wars | work=[[New Statesman]]|first=Gaby |last=Hinsliff|date=3 November 2021 | access-date=24 November 2021}}</ref> and [[Human Rights Campaign]].<ref name= Milne2020/> [[GLAAD]] called Rowling's comments "cruel" and "inaccurate".<ref name=AP7June2020>{{cite news |title= JK Rowling's tweets on transgender people spark outrage |date= 7 June 2020 |url= https://apnews.com/article/entertainment-jk-rowling-us-news-media-7338b2b262090c00f04deafe2e6689c2 |publisher= [[Associated Press]] |access-date= 4 May 2024}}</ref> Leading actors of the [[Wizarding World]] spoke out against her stance;<ref name=Waterson2020>{{Cite news|last= Waterson |first= Jim|title= Children's news website apologises to JK Rowling over trans tweet row|url= https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jul/23/childrens-news-website-apologises-jk-rowling-trans-tweet-day|date= 23 July 2020 |access-date=26 March 2022|work=[[The Guardian]] |quote= Rowling's comments on gender were condemned by LGBT charities and the leading stars of her Harry Potter film franchise.}}</ref><ref name=Lang2020>{{cite magazine |last=Lang |first=Brent |title= Eddie Redmayne criticizes J.K. Rowling's anti-trans tweets |date= 10 June 2020 |url= https://variety.com/2020/film/news/eddie-redmayne-jk-rowling-anti-trans-tweets-harry-potter-fantastic-beasts-1234630226/ |magazine= [[Variety (magazine)|Variety]]|access-date=28 March 2022 |quote= Eddie Redmayne, star of the ''Fantastic Beasts'' franchise, is speaking out against J.K. Rowling's anti-trans tweets, as the controversy surrounding the author and her beliefs continues to swirl.}}</ref> [[Daniel Radcliffe]], [[Emma Watson]], [[Rupert Grint]], [[Eddie Redmayne]] and others declared support for the transgender community.{{sfn|Borah|2024|p=375}}{{efn| [[Helena Bonham Carter]],<ref name=Evans2022> {{cite news |first= Greg |last= Evans |url= https://deadline.com/2022/11/helena-bonham-carter-johnny-depp-j-k-rowling-1235182523/ |title= Helena Bonham Carter says Johnny Depp 'completely vindicated' in defamation trial, and J.K. Rowling 'hounded' for transgender stance |work= [[Deadline Hollywood]] |access-date= 18 December 2022}}</ref> [[Robbie Coltrane]],<ref>{{cite news |last= Yasharoff |first= Hannah |title= How the 'Harry Potter' reunion addresses author J.K. Rowling's anti-trans controversy |date= 30 December 2021|url= https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/movies/2021/12/30/harry-potter-return-hogwarts-20th-reunion-emma-watson-jk-rowling-controversy/9042955002/ |work= [[USA Today]] |access-date= 2 April 2022}}</ref> and [[Ralph Fiennes]] supported Rowling.<ref name= Hibberd2021>{{cite news |first= James |last= Hibberd |url= https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/ralph-fiennes-defends-j-k-rowling-amid-trans-controversy-says-backlash-is-disturbing-4151944/ |title= Ralph Fiennes defends J.K. rowling amid trans controversy, says backlash is 'disturbing' |date= 17 March 2021 |access-date=26 March 2022 |work= [[The Hollywood Reporter]]}}</ref>}} After [[Kerry Kennedy]] expressed "profound disappointment" in her views, Rowling returned the [[Ripple of Hope Award]] given to her by the Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights organisation.<ref name=RFKAward>{{cite news |last=Flood|first=Alison |url= https://amp.theguardian.com/books/2020/aug/28/jk-rowling-robert-f-kennedy-human-rights-award-trans-views|title=JK Rowling returns human rights award to group that denounces her trans views |work=[[The Guardian]]|date=28 August 2020|access-date=28 August 2020}}</ref> |
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Rowling rejects these characterisations and denies being transphobic.<ref name=RowlingReasons>{{cite web|title=J.K. Rowling writes about her reasons for speaking out on sex and gender issues |url=https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/ |publisher=JK Rowling |date=10 June 2020 |access-date=10 June 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200610182056/https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/ |archive-date=10 June 2020 |url-status=live}}</ref><ref name= Dismisses>{{cite news |title= JK Rowling dismisses backlash over trans comments: 'I don't care about my legacy' |date= 22 February 2023|url= https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-64729304 |publisher= [[BBC News]] |access-date= 3 May 2024}}</ref> In an essay posted on her website in June 2020 – that left trans people feeling betrayed{{sfn|Whited|2024|p=7}}{{sfn|Henderson|2022|p=224}} – Rowling said her views on women's rights arose from her experience as a survivor of domestic abuse and [[sexual assault]].{{sfn|Duggan|2021|pp=160–161)}}<ref name=Shirbon2020>{{cite news |last1=Shirbon |first1=Estelle |title=J.K. Rowling reveals past abuse and defends right to speak on trans issues |url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-rowling/j-k-rowling-reveals-past-abuse-and-defends-right-to-speak-on-trans-issues-idUSKBN23H2XI |publisher=[[Reuters]] |date=10 June 2020 |access-date=13 June 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200611200348/https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-rowling/j-k-rowling-reveals-past-abuse-and-defends-right-to-speak-on-trans-issues-idUSKBN23H2XI |archive-date=11 June 2020 |url-status=live}}</ref> While affirming that "the majority of trans-identified people not only pose zero threat to others, but are vulnerable ... Trans people need and deserve protection", she wrote that it would be unsafe to allow "any man who believes or feels he's a woman" into bathrooms or changing rooms.<ref name= Shirbon2020/><ref>{{cite news |last1=Gonzalez |first1=Sandra |title=J.K. Rowling explains her gender identity views in essay amid backlash |url=https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/10/entertainment/jk-rowling/index.html |access-date=16 September 2023 |publisher=[[CNN]] |date=10 June 2020}}</ref><ref>{{cite news |last1=Garrand |first1=Danielle |title=J.K. Rowling defends herself after accusations of making 'anti-trans' comments on Twitter |url=https://www.cbsnews.com/news/j-k-rowling-defends-anti-trans-comments-twitter/ |access-date=16 September 2023 |publisher=[[CBS News]] |date=11 June 2020}}</ref> Whited asserted in 2024 that Rowling's sometimes "flippant" and "simplistic understanding of gender identity" had permanently changed her "relationship not only with fans, readers, and scholars ... but also with her works themselves".{{sfn|Whited|2024|pp=6, 8–9}} |
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|| {{Main|Political views of J. K. Rowling#Transgender rights}} |
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Rowling's responses to proposed changes to UK gender recognition laws,<ref name= Milne2020>{{cite web|first1= Amber |last1=Milne|first2 = Rachel| last2 =Savage | url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-lgbt-rowling-explainer-trfn-idUSKBN23I3AI | title=Explainer: J. K. Rowling and trans women in single-sex spaces: what's the furore? | publisher=[[Reuters]] | date=11 June 2020 | access-date=6 April 2021 }}</ref><ref name= Brooks2020>{{Cite news|last=Brooks|first=Libby|date=11 June 2020|title=Why is JK Rowling speaking out now on sex and gender debate? |url= http://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/jun/11/why-is-jk-rowling-speaking-out-now-on-sex-and-gender-debate|access-date=14 January 2022 |work= [[The Guardian]] }}</ref>{{efn|The UK laws and proposed changes are the [[Gender Recognition Act 2004]], the [[Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill]] and the related [[Equality Act 2010]].{{sfn|Pedersen|2022|loc=Abstract}}{{sfn|Suissa|Sullivan|2021|pp=66–69}}{{sfn|Duggan|2021|loc=PDF pp. 14–15 (160–161)}} }} and her views on [[sexual identity|sex]] and [[gender identity|gender]], have provoked controversy.{{sfn|Duggan|2021|loc=PDF pp. 14–15 (160–161)}} Her statements have divided [[Feminist views on transgender topics|feminists]];<ref name=Kottasova2019>{{cite news |first1= Ivana |last1= Kottasová |first2= Scottie | last2= Andrew|title= J.K. Rowling's 'transphobia' tweet row spotlights a fight between equality campaigners and radical feminists |publisher= [[CNN]] |date= 20 December 2019 |access-date= 29 March 2022 | url= https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/20/uk/jk-rowling-transgender-explainer-intl-gbr/index.html}}</ref><ref name=BBC2020JKRResponds>{{cite news |url= https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-53002557 |publisher= [[BBC News]] |title= JK Rowling responds to trans tweets criticism |date= 11 June 2020 |access-date= 29 March 2022}}</ref><ref>{{cite news | url=https://www.newstatesman.com/international/2020/09/judith-butler-culture-wars-jk-rowling-and-living-anti-intellectual-times | title=Judith Butler on the culture wars, JK Rowling and living in 'anti-intellectual times'|first=Alona |last=Ferber | work=[[New Statesman]] | date=22 September 2020 | access-date=26 March 2021}}</ref> fuelled<!-- This article uses British spelling --> debates on [[freedom of speech]],{{sfn|Pape|2022|pp=229–230}}<ref>{{cite web|title=BBC nominates J.K.Rowling's controversial essay of trans rights for award|url=https://www.dw.com/en/bbc-nominates-jk-rowlings-controversial-essay-on-trans-rights-for-award/a-56014673|website=[[DW News]]|date=22 December 2020|access-date=22 December 2020}}</ref> [[academic freedom]]{{sfn|Suissa|Sullivan|2021|pp=66–69}} and [[cancel culture]];{{sfn|Schwirblat|Freberg|Freberg|2022|pp=367–369}} and prompted declarations of [[Transgender rights movement|support for transgender people]] from the literary,<ref>UK, US, Canada, Ireland: {{cite news |last= Flood |first= Alison |date=9 October 2020|title= Stephen King, Margaret Atwood and Roxane Gay champion trans rights in open letter|url= https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/oct/09/stephen-king-margaret-atwood-roxane-gay-champion-trans-rights-open-letter-jk-rowling |work= [[The Guardian]] |access-date= 2 April 2022}}</ref> arts<ref>{{cite magazine|last= Rowley |first= Glenn |title= Artists fire back at J.K. Rowling's anti-trans remarks, share messages in support of the community|url= https://www.billboard.com/culture/pride/artists-fire-back-jk-rowling-anti-trans-remarks-9400386/|magazine= [[Billboard (magazine)|Billboard]]|date= 11 June 2020 |access-date= 7 April 2022}}</ref> and culture sectors.<ref>Culture sector: |
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* [[Universal Destinations & Experiences]], [[Warner Bros.]] and [[Scholastic Corporation]]: {{cite news |last1= Siegel |first1= Tatiana |last2= Abramovitch |first2= Seth |date= 10 June 2020 |title= Universal Parks responds to J.K. Rowling tweets: 'Our core values include diversity, inclusion and respect' |work= [[The Hollywood Reporter]] |url= https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/lifestyle/lifestyle-news/universal-parks-responds-jk-rowling-tweets-core-values-include-diversity-inclusion-respect-1297845/ |access-date= 3 April 2022|ref=none}} |
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* [[Warner Bros. Interactive Entertainment]] president: {{cite news |last= Skrebels |first= Joe |title= WB Interactive president responds to ongoing debate over supporting JK Rowling |date=1 October 2020 |url= https://www.ign.com/articles/wb-interactive-president-responds-to-ongoing-debate-over-supporting-jk-rowling |publisher= [[IGN]] |access-date= 2 April 2022|ref=none}}</ref> |
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When [[Maya Forstater]]'s employment contract with the London branch of the [[Center for Global Development]] was not renewed after she tweeted [[Feminist views on transgender topics#Gender-critical feminism and trans-exclusionary radical feminism|gender-critical views]],{{sfn|Pugh|2020|p=7}}<ref name=Stack2019>{{Cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/19/world/europe/jk-rowling-maya-forstater-transgender.html|title=J.K. Rowling criticized after tweeting support for anti-transgender researcher|last=Stack|first=Liam|date=19 December 2019|work=[[The New York Times]]|access-date=13 June 2020| url-access=registration|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200613012737/https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/19/world/europe/jk-rowling-maya-forstater-transgender.html|archive-date=13 June 2020|url-status=live}}</ref> Rowling responded in December 2019 with a tweet that [[transgender]] people should live their lives as they pleased in "peace and security", but questioned women being "force[d] out of their jobs for stating that sex is real".<ref name=Stack2019/>{{efn|A tribunal ruled in 2021 that Forstater's gender-critical views were protected under the 2010 UK [[Equality Act 2010|Equality Act]].<ref name=Faulkner2021>{{cite news |first= Doug |last= Faulkner |url= https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-57426579 |title= Maya Forstater: woman wins tribunal appeal over transgender tweets |publisher= [[BBC News]] |date= 10 June 2021 |access-date= 26 March 2022}}</ref><ref name=Siddique2021>{{cite news |first= Haroon |last= Siddique |date= 10 June 2021 |title= Gender-critical views are a protected belief, appeal tribunal rules|url= https://www.theguardian.com/law/2021/jun/10/gender-critical-views-protected-belief-appeal-tribunal-rules-maya-forstater |work= [[The Guardian]] |access-date= 26 March 2022}}</ref> In July 2022, a new tribunal decision was published (''[[Forstater v Center for Global Development Europe]]'') ruling that Forstater had suffered direct discrimination from her employer.<ref>{{cite news |title=Maya Forstater: Woman discriminated against over trans tweets, tribunal rules|date=6 July 2022 |url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-62061929 |publisher=[[BBC News]] |access-date=6 July 2022}}</ref>}} In another controversial tweet in June 2020,<ref name=Petter2020>{{Cite web|last= Petter|first=Olivia|date=17 September 2020|title=Mermaids writes open letter to JK Rowling following her recent comments on trans people|url=https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/mermaids-jk-rowling-transphobia-transgender-sexual-abuse-domestic-letter-a9565176.html|access-date=26 March 2022|work=[[The Independent]] |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200615235531/https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/mermaids-jk-rowling-transphobia-transgender-sexual-abuse-domestic-letter-a9565176.html |archive-date=15 June 2020}}</ref> Rowling mocked an article for using the phrase "[[people who menstruate]]",<ref name=Gross2020>{{Cite news|last=Gross|first=Jenny|date=7 June 2020|title=Daniel Radcliffe criticizes J.K. Rowling's anti-transgender tweets|work=[[The New York Times]]|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/07/arts/Jk-Rowling-controversy.html |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200607221400/https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/07/arts/Jk-Rowling-controversy.html |archive-date=7 June 2020 |url-access=subscription |url-status=live|access-date=6 January 2022 }}</ref> and tweeted that [[women's rights]] and "lived reality" would be "erased" if "sex isn't real".{{sfn|Duggan|2021|loc=PDF pp. 14–15}}<ref>{{cite magazine|url=https://variety.com/2020/film/news/jk-rowling-transphobic-tweets-controversy-1234627081/|title=J.K. Rowling gets backlash over anti-trans tweets|last=Moreau|first=Jordan|magazine=[[Variety (magazine)|Variety]]|date=6 June 2020|access-date=13 June 2020|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200607005447/https://variety.com/2020/film/news/jk-rowling-transphobic-tweets-controversy-1234627081/|archive-date=7 June 2020|url-status=live}}</ref> |
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[[LGBT]] charities and leading actors of the [[Wizarding World]] franchise condemned Rowling's comments;<ref name=Waterson2020>{{Cite news|last= Waterson |first= Jim|title= Children's news website apologises to JK Rowling over trans tweet row|url= https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jul/23/childrens-news-website-apologises-jk-rowling-trans-tweet-day|date= 23 July 2020 |access-date=26 March 2022|work=[[The Guardian]] |quote= Rowling's comments on gender were condemned by LGBT charities and the leading stars of her Harry Potter film franchise.}}</ref><ref name=Lang2020>{{cite magazine |last=Lang |first=Brent |title= Eddie Redmayne criticizes J.K. Rowling's anti-trans tweets |date= 10 June 2020 |url= https://variety.com/2020/film/news/eddie-redmayne-jk-rowling-anti-trans-tweets-harry-potter-fantastic-beasts-1234630226/ |magazine= [[Variety (magazine)|Variety]]|access-date=28 March 2022 |quote= Eddie Redmayne, star of the ''Fantastic Beasts'' franchise, is speaking out against J.K. Rowling's anti-trans tweets, as the controversy surrounding the author and her beliefs continues to swirl.}}</ref>{{efn| [[Daniel Radcliffe]], [[Emma Watson]], [[Rupert Grint]],<ref name= Hibberd2021/> [[Eddie Redmayne]]<ref name=Lang2020/> and others expressed support for the transgender community in reaction to Rowling's comments;<ref>{{cite magazine |first= Maureen |last= Lenker|title= Every Harry Potter actor who's spoken out against J.K. Rowling's controversial trans comments |date= 10 June 2020 |access-date= 1 April 2022 |magazine= [[Entertainment Weekly]]|url=https://ew.com/movies/every-harry-potter-actor-whos-spoken-out-against-j-k-rowlings-controversial-transgender-comments/ }}</ref><ref>{{cite news |first= Maggie |last= Baska|title= Stephen Fry defends 'friendship' with JK Rowling: 'I'm sorry that people are upset' |date= 20 May 2021 |url= https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2021/05/20/stephen-fry-jk-rowling-friend-harry-potter-jordan-b-peterson-podcast-trans/ |publisher= [[PinkNews]] |access-date= 29 March 2022}}</ref> [[Helena Bonham Carter]],<ref name=Evans2022> {{cite news |first= Greg |last= Evans |url= https://deadline.com/2022/11/helena-bonham-carter-johnny-depp-j-k-rowling-1235182523/ |title= Helena Bonham Carter says Johnny Depp 'completely vindicated' in defamation trial, and J.K. Rowling 'hounded' for transgender stance |work= [[Deadline Hollywood]] |access-date= 18 December 2022}}</ref> [[Robbie Coltrane]],<ref>{{cite news |last= Yasharoff |first= Hannah |title= How the 'Harry Potter' reunion addresses author J.K. Rowling's anti-trans controversy |date= 30 December 2021|url= https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/movies/2021/12/30/harry-potter-return-hogwarts-20th-reunion-emma-watson-jk-rowling-controversy/9042955002/ |work= [[USA Today]] |access-date= 2 April 2022}}</ref> and [[Ralph Fiennes]] supported Rowling.<ref name= Hibberd2021>{{cite news |first= James |last= Hibberd |url= https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/ralph-fiennes-defends-j-k-rowling-amid-trans-controversy-says-backlash-is-disturbing-4151944/ |title= Ralph Fiennes defends J.K. rowling amid trans controversy, says backlash is 'disturbing' |date= 17 March 2021 |access-date=26 March 2022 |work= [[The Hollywood Reporter]]}}</ref>}} [[GLAAD]] called them "cruel" and "inaccurate".<ref name= Yasharoff2020> {{cite news |last= Yasharoff |first=Hannah|url= https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/celebrities/2020/06/07/j-k-rowling-harry-potter-author-slammed-transphobic-comments/3169833001/ |title= J.K. Rowling reveals she's a sexual assault survivor; Emma Watson reacts to trans comments |work= [[USA Today]] |date= 10 June 2020 |access-date= 27 March 2022}}</ref> Rowling responded with an essay on her website<ref name=RowlingReasons>{{cite web|title=J.K. Rowling writes about her reasons for speaking out on sex and gender issues |url=https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/ |publisher=JK Rowling |date=10 June 2020 |access-date=10 June 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200610182056/https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/ |archive-date=10 June 2020 |url-status=live}}</ref> in which she revealed that her views on women's rights were informed by her experience as a survivor of domestic abuse and [[sexual assault]].<ref name=Shirbon2020>{{cite news |last1=Shirbon |first1=Estelle |title=J.K. Rowling reveals past abuse and defends right to speak on trans issues |url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-rowling/j-k-rowling-reveals-past-abuse-and-defends-right-to-speak-on-trans-issues-idUSKBN23H2XI |publisher=[[Reuters]] |date=10 June 2020 |access-date=13 June 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200611200348/https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-rowling/j-k-rowling-reveals-past-abuse-and-defends-right-to-speak-on-trans-issues-idUSKBN23H2XI |archive-date=11 June 2020 |url-status=live}}</ref> While affirming that "the majority of trans-identified people not only pose zero threat to others, but are vulnerable ... Trans people need and deserve protection", she believed that it would be unsafe to allow "any man who believes or feels he's a woman" into bathrooms or changing rooms.<ref name= Shirbon2020/><ref>{{cite news |last1=Gonzalez |first1=Sandra |title=J.K. Rowling explains her gender identity views in essay amid backlash |url=https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/10/entertainment/jk-rowling/index.html |access-date=16 September 2023 |work=[[CNN]] |date=10 June 2020}}</ref><ref>{{cite news |last1=Garrand |first1=Danielle |title= J.K. Rowling defends herself after accusations of making "anti-trans" comments on Twitter |url=https://www.cbsnews.com/news/j-k-rowling-defends-anti-trans-comments-twitter/ |access-date=16 September 2023 |work=[[CBS News]] |date=11 June 2020}}</ref> Writing of her own experiences with [[sexism]] and [[misogyny]],<ref>{{cite news |first= Sian |last= Cain |date= 11 June 2020 |title= JK Rowling reveals she is survivor of domestic abuse and sexual assault |url= https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/jun/10/jk-rowling-says-survivor-of-domestic-abuse-sexual-assault |work= [[The Guardian]] |access-date= 29 March 2022}}</ref> she wondered if the "allure of escaping womanhood" would have led her to [[Gender transitioning|transition]] if she had been born later, and said that trans activism was "seeking to erode 'woman' as a political and biological class".<ref name=DAlessandro2020>{{cite news |last=D'Alessandro |first=Anthony |title=J.K. Rowling defends trans statements in lengthy essay, reveals she's a sexual assault survivor & says 'trans people need and deserve protection' |url=https://deadline.com/2020/06/j-k-rowling-defends-trans-statements-essay-1202955524/ |access-date=5 January 2022 |work=[[Deadline Hollywood]] |date=10 June 2020}}</ref> |
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There was a [[Talk:J._K._Rowling/Archive_8#Should_her_views_on_transgender_people_be_mentioned_in_the_lede?|discussion several months ago]] about whether or not to mention the controversy around Rowling's views of transgender people in the lead. Seeing the media coverage of the possible TV series, e.g. [https://www.vox.com/culture/22254435/harry-potter-tv-series-hbo-jk-rowling-transphobic][https://www.ign.com/articles/how-harry-potter-fans-are-coping-with-jk-rowling][https://www.insider.com/harry-potter-series-hbo-max-backlash-jk-rowling-reactions-2021-1], I think at this point it's very safe to say that this is a lasting part of her reputation and that it would be inappropriate to continue omitting it from the lead (especially given that we currently mention things like a list of the charities she supports, which has gotten far less coverage). Can we have some suggestions about possible wording, so that we can then find consensus on text to add? Courtesy pinging prior participants {{re|Reschultzed|Crossroads|YuvalNehemia|-sche|Czello|Bodney|Bastun|Esowteric|Licks-rocks|HPDEATHLYHALLOWS4}}. <span style="color:#AAA"><small>{{u|</small><span style="border-radius:9em;padding:0 5px;background:#088">[[User:Sdkb|<span style="color:#FFF">'''Sdkb'''</span>]]</span><small>}}</small></span> <sup>[[User talk:Sdkb|'''talk''']]</sup> 21:11, 1 February 2021 (UTC) |
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Rowling's continual statements – beginning in 2017{{sfn|Duggan|2021|loc=PDF pp. 14–15 (160–161)}}<ref name= Jacobs2023>{{cite news |last= Jacobs |first= Julia |title= Hogwarts legacy can't cast aside debate over J. K. Rowling |url= https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/09/arts/hogwarts-legacy-jk-rowling.html |date= 9 February 2023 |work = [[The New York Times]] |access-date= 14 July 2023}}</ref><ref name= Spangler2023>{{cite news |last= Spangler|first= Todd |title= J.K. Rowling addresses backlash to her anti-trans comments in new podcast: 'I never set out to upset anyone' |url= https://variety.com/2023/digital/news/jk-rowling-anti-trans-comments-podcast-witch-trials-1235522301/ |date= 14 February 2023|work= [[Variety (magazine)|Variety]]|access-date= 14 July 2023}}</ref> – have been called transphobic by critics<ref name= Breznican2023>{{cite news |last= Breznican |first= Anthony |title= J.K. Rowling will oversee a new streaming ''Harry Potter'' series |url= https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2023/04/jk-rowling-harry-potter-series|date= 12 April 2023 |work= [[Vanity Fair (magazine)|Vanity Fair]] |access-date= 14 July 2023}}</ref><ref name=Rosenblatt2020>{{Cite web|last = Rosenblatt| first =Kalhan |title=J.K. Rowling doubles down in what some critics call a 'transphobic manifesto' |url= https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/j-k-rowling-doubles-down-what-some-critics-call-transphobic-n1229351|date= 10 June 2020 |access-date=19 January 2022|publisher=[[NBC News]] }}</ref> and she has been referred to as a [[TERF (acronym)|TERF]].<ref name= Rosenblatt2020/>{{sfn|Steinfeld|2020|pp=34–35}}{{sfn|Schwirblat|Freberg|Freberg|2022|pp=367–368}} She rejects these characterisations and the notion that she holds animosity towards transgender people, saying that her viewpoint has been misunderstood.<ref name=RowlingReasons/><ref name= Breznican2023/><ref name= Spangler2023/> Criticism of Rowling's views has come from the ''Harry Potter'' fansites [[MuggleNet]] and [[The Leaky Cauldron (website)|The Leaky Cauldron]];<ref name=FanSites>{{cite news|url=https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/03/harry-potter-fan-sites-distance-themselves-from-jk-rowling-over-transgender-rights|title=Harry Potter fan sites distance themselves from JK Rowling over transgender rights|publisher=[[Reuters]]|work=[[The Guardian]]|date=3 July 2020|access-date=3 July 2020|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200703011204/https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/03/harry-potter-fan-sites-distance-themselves-from-jk-rowling-over-transgender-rights|archive-date=3 July 2020|url-status=live}}</ref> and the charities [[Mermaids (charity)|Mermaids]],<ref name=Petter2020/> [[Stonewall (charity)|Stonewall]],<ref>{{cite news | url=https://www.newstatesman.com/long-reads/2021/11/the-battle-for-stonewall-the-lgbt-charity-and-the-uks-gender-wars | title=The battle for Stonewall: the LGBT charity and the UK's gender wars | work=[[New Statesman]]|first=Gaby |last=Hinsliff|date=3 November 2021 | access-date=24 November 2021}}</ref> and [[Human Rights Campaign]].<ref>{{cite news |first= Elise |last= Brisco |title=Dave Chappelle says he's 'Team TERF,' defends J.K. Rowling in new Netflix comedy special|url= https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/tv/2021/10/05/dave-chappelle-terf-defends-j-k-rowling-netflix-special/6002017001/ |work= [[USA Today]] |date= 8 October 2021|access-date= 29 March 2022}}</ref> After [[Kerry Kennedy]] expressed "profound disappointment" in her views, Rowling returned the [[Ripple of Hope Award]] given to her by the Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights organisation.<ref name=RFKAward>{{cite news |last=Flood|first=Alison |url= https://amp.theguardian.com/books/2020/aug/28/jk-rowling-robert-f-kennedy-human-rights-award-trans-views|title=JK Rowling returns human rights award to group that denounces her trans views |work=[[The Guardian]]|date=28 August 2020|access-date=28 August 2020}}</ref> |
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:How about : In 2020, Rowling expressed alleged transphobic sentiments that were critiqued by many organizations and supported by many feminists and actors such a brian Cox. |
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As Rowling's views on the [[legal status of transgender people]] came under scrutiny,{{sfn|Suissa|Sullivan|2021|pp=66–69}} she received insults and death threats{{sfn|Suissa|Sullivan|2021|p=69}}{{sfn|Qiao|2022|p=1323}} and discussion moved beyond the Twitter community.{{sfn|Schwirblat|Freberg|Freberg|2022|p=368}} Some performers and feminists have supported her.{{sfn|Schwirblat|Freberg|Freberg|2022|p=368}}<ref> Supporting Rowling: |
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:Please note neutrality is important |
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* [[Ayaan Hirsi Ali]]: {{cite news |first=Katie |last=Law |date= 15 October 2020|title= JK Rowling and the bitter battle of the book world |url=https://www.standard.co.uk/culture/books/trans-battle-book-world-jk-rowling-a4571221.html |work= [[Evening Standard]] |access-date=27 March 2022|ref=none}} |
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:No putting baiting language and words like Jk Rowling is a transphobe or terf shit that SJW would be too happy over such additions. [[User:HPDEATHLYHALLOWS4|Hpdh4]] ([[User talk:HPDEATHLYHALLOWS4|talk]]) 23:21, 1 February 2021 (UTC) |
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* [[Allison Bailey]]: {{cite news |url= https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/maya-forstater-transgender-twitter-jk-rowling-b1838151.html |title= Maya Forstater: who is woman in employment tribunal over transgender comments? |first= Sam |last= Hancock |date= 27 April 2021 |work= [[The Independent]] |access-date= 27 March 2022|archive-url= https://web.archive.org/web/20210427131430/https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/maya-forstater-transgender-twitter-jk-rowling-b1838151.html |archive-date= 27 April 2021 |quote= criminal defence barrister Allison Bailey – known for launching legal action against LGBT+ rights charity Stonewall over its attempt to have her investigated for setting up the anti-trans rights group LGB Alliance – has also been a vocal supporter of Ms Forstater.|ref=none}} |
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* [[Julie Bindel]]: {{cite news |last1=Thorpe |first1=Vanessa |title=JK Rowling: from magic to the heart of a Twitter storm |url=https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/jun/14/jk-rowling-from-magic-to-the-heart-of-a-twitter-storm |work=[[The Guardian]] |date=14 June 2020 |quote=Arrayed on Rowling's side are some of the veteran voices of feminism, including the radical Julie Bindel, who spoke out in support this weekend |access-date=6 July 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200704200412/https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/jun/14/jk-rowling-from-magic-to-the-heart-of-a-twitter-storm |archive-date=4 July 2020 |url-status=live|ref=none}} |
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* [[Dave Chappelle]]: {{Cite news |first= Maya |last=Yang|date=7 October 2021|title='I'm team Terf': Dave Chappelle under fire over pro-JK Rowling trans stance|url=https://www.theguardian.com/stage/2021/oct/07/dave-chappelle-transgender-netflix-special-backlash|access-date=27 March 2022|work=[[The Guardian]]|ref=none}} |
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* [[Dana International]]: {{cite news |last1=Shirbon |first1=Estelle |title=J.K. Rowling reveals past abuse and defends right to speak on trans issues |url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-rowling/j-k-rowling-reveals-past-abuse-and-defends-right-to-speak-on-trans-issues-idUSKBN23H2XI |publisher=[[Reuters]] |date=10 June 2020 |access-date=13 June 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200611200348/https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-rowling/j-k-rowling-reveals-past-abuse-and-defends-right-to-speak-on-trans-issues-idUSKBN23H2XI |archive-date=11 June 2020 |url-status=live|ref=none}} |
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* [[Eddie Izzard]]: {{cite news |title='I don't think JK Rowling is transphobic,' says gender-fluid comedian Eddie Izzard |url=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/comedy/what-to-see/dont-think-jk-rowling-transphobic-says-gender-fluid-comedian/ |archive-url=https://ghostarchive.org/archive/20220110/https://www.telegraph.co.uk/comedy/what-to-see/dont-think-jk-rowling-transphobic-says-gender-fluid-comedian/ |archive-date=10 January 2022 |url-access=subscription |url-status=live |access-date=27 November 2021 |work=[[The Daily Telegraph]]|date=1 January 2021|ref=none}}{{cbignore}} |
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* [[Kathleen Stock]], [[Alison Moyet]]: {{cite news |url= https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-53002557 |publisher= [[BBC News]] |title= JK Rowling responds to trans tweets criticism |date= 11 June 2020 |access-date= 29 March 2022}}</ref> Figures from the arts world criticised "hate speech directed against her".<ref name= Flockhart2020>{{cite news |last= Flockhart |first= Gary |date= 28 September 2020 |access-date= 2 April 2022 |work = [[The Scotsman]] |title= JK Rowling receives support from Ian McEwan and Frances Barber amid 'transphobia' row|url= https://www.scotsman.com/news/people/jk-rowling-receives-support-from-ian-mcewan-and-frances-barber-amid-transphobia-row-2986268|ref=none}}</ref> |
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|} |
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::I believe that it is correct to include a neutral reference in the lead. Just replying at this stage, to the suggestion provided by [[User:HPDEATHLYHALLOWS4|Hpdh4]] with respect I am not sure we have solid evidence of 'many' feminists and actors supporting her, but 'a few or maybe some' clearly do. Also why specifically mention Brian Fox who has zero relevance and not name any of the leading LGBT organisations that do not. That is not neutral <span class="unicode" style="text-shadow:0.1em 0.1em 0.1em #777777">[[User:Bodney|<span style="font-family:Papyrus;color: #660099 ;"> ~ BOD ~ </span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Bodney#top|<small style="font-family:Papyrus;color:green;">TALK</small>]]</sup></span> 00:12, 2 February 2021 (UTC) |
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{{cot|Sources}} |
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::How about: "In 2020, Rowling expressed views often described as transphobic, receiving criticism from many individuals and organisations, including intersectional feminists, and receiving support from others, including gender critical feminists." Obviously, that's way too long, but you get the idea. We won't be mentioning individuals in the lead, pro- ''or'' anti-Rowling. The lead is supposed to be a summary of the content. Please note neutrality is '''absolutely key'''. One might question the good faith of someone proposing an obviously biased sentence for the lead. No using baiting language in the article ''or this talk page'' - terms such as "SJW", should be avoided. [[User:Bastun|<span style="font-family:Verdana, sans-serif">Bastun</span>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]</sup> 01:10, 2 February 2021 (UTC) |
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{{reflist-talk}} |
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::: The term {{tq|gender critical feminists}} isn't used in the article, so I don't see how it could feature in the lede as part of a summary of the article. It also isn't an NPOV term, so probably some other term should be used. I agree with the LEADFOLLOWSBODY approach and that the controversy seems DUE for inclusion. Indeed, it seems likely to reflect the only thing many Gen Z people will remember about JKR. [[User:Newimpartial|Newimpartial]] ([[User talk:Newimpartial|talk]]) 01:17, 2 February 2021 (UTC) |
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{{notelist-talk}} |
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::::How about a quick & ugly tiny reword "In 2020, Rowling expressed views often described as transphobic, receiving criticism from many individuals and organisations, including intersectional feminists, and receiving support from others, including feminists who are critical of transgenderism." <span class="unicode" style="text-shadow:0.1em 0.1em 0.1em #777777">[[User:Bodney|<span style="font-family:Papyrus;color: #660099 ;"> ~ BOD ~ </span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Bodney#top|<small style="font-family:Papyrus;color:green;">TALK</small>]]</sup></span> 01:50, 2 February 2021 (UTC) |
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{{cob}} |
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::::: I'm still not keen on introducing labels in the lede that don't emerge from the body. I would prefer "...and receiving support from others, including some feminists" - this follows the body, and has the additional merit of being 100% accurate. [[User:Newimpartial|Newimpartial]] ([[User talk:Newimpartial|talk]]) 01:56, 2 February 2021 (UTC) |
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::::::Labels mmm I was going to suggest we possibly add 'LGBT' organisations to 'receiving criticism from many individuals and organisations' to show relevance to the matter. <span class="unicode" style="text-shadow:0.1em 0.1em 0.1em #777777">[[User:Bodney|<span style="font-family:Papyrus;color: #660099 ;"> ~ BOD ~ </span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Bodney#top|<small style="font-family:Papyrus;color:green;">TALK</small>]]</sup></span> 02:03, 2 February 2021 (UTC) |
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::::::: As long as the text doesn't then imply that most of the individuals doing the criticism were LGBT, because that would be misleading. I suppose most of the orgs probably were. 02:06, 2 February 2021 (UTC) |
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::::::::Yep i meant it to before the 'organisations', sorry i was not clear. <span class="unicode" style="text-shadow:0.1em 0.1em 0.1em #777777">[[User:Bodney|<span style="font-family:Papyrus;color: #660099 ;"> ~ BOD ~ </span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Bodney#top|<small style="font-family:Papyrus;color:green;">TALK</small>]]</sup></span> 02:10, 2 February 2021 (UTC) |
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:::::::::I also think we need to avoid implying that feminists who commented were all supportive of Rowling, which is absolutely not the case. [[User:Bastun|<span style="font-family:Verdana, sans-serif">Bastun</span>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]</sup> 11:10, 2 February 2021 (UTC) |
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*Still not warranted. Those Vox, IGN, and Insider sources are clickbaity/controversy-mongering coverage largely of random people on Twitter and are clearly [[WP:RSOPINION|opinion pieces]], not top-shelf news sources like the Guardian, The Times, NYT, etc. And I see that already the proposed text is full of POV [[WP:WEASEL]] wording like "many" and "often". <span style="font-family:Palatino">[[User:Crossroads|'''Crossroads''']]</span> <sup>[[User talk:Crossroads|-talk-]]</sup> 04:38, 2 February 2021 (UTC) |
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*:Well, if you want top shelf, here's top shelf by your own definition: [https://www.theguardian.com/film/2020/jun/08/daniel-radcliffe-jk-rowling-transgender-tweets][https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/row-over-jk-rowlings-new-novel-on-transvestite-killer-5f2hr0kdm][https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/style/jk-rowling-transgender-fans.html]. <span style="color:#AAA"><small>{{u|</small><span style="border-radius:9em;padding:0 5px;background:#088">[[User:Sdkb|<span style="color:#FFF">'''Sdkb'''</span>]]</span><small>}}</small></span> <sup>[[User talk:Sdkb|'''talk''']]</sup> 05:54, 2 February 2021 (UTC) |
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*::Those are all old. They aren't a grounds to revisit it again. I don't think "some people on Twitter got mad that HP might get a live action TV series" should play any role in our calculus at all. <span style="font-family:Palatino">[[User:Crossroads|'''Crossroads''']]</span> <sup>[[User talk:Crossroads|-talk-]]</sup> 05:59, 2 February 2021 (UTC) |
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*:::Explain what you mean by "those are all old", please? Rowling made most of her comments in 2020, that's when people responded, so that's when the media reported on the controversy. In any case, [[MOS:CITELEAD]] - we don't ''need'' to include citations in the lead for material discussed and referenced later in the article. [[User:Bastun|<span style="font-family:Verdana, sans-serif">Bastun</span>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]</sup> 11:18, 2 February 2021 (UTC) |
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*::: However, Rowling's alleged transphobia is also discussed in B Colliver's book, ''Imagining Hate Crime'' (2020), A Tudor's article "TERFism is a white distraction" in ''engenderings'', S Popovich's "The Antinomies of Academic Freedom" in ''The Canadian Journal of Academic Librarianshop'' and Horbury & Yao, "Empire and Eugenics: Trans Studies in the United Kingsom" in ''TSQ'' (all published in 2020). I think it is about time we stopped pretending this controversy is not part of Rowling's lasting cultural impact. [[User:Newimpartial|Newimpartial]] ([[User talk:Newimpartial|talk]]) 12:11, 2 February 2021 (UTC) |
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*::::The article already has a section on the topic, so the question whether we should cover the subject or not is moot, as we cover it already. The question which scope and detail is appropriate for the coverage. We certainly should avoid bloating the the section to include the latest shitstorm or media campaign.--[[User:Kmhkmh|Kmhkmh]] ([[User talk:Kmhkmh|talk]]) 15:26, 2 February 2021 (UTC) |
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*::::: That is as may be, but the question asked in ''this'' section is whether by now it is DUE for this controversy to be reflected in the lede, following the discussion in the body. I believe the answer is, "yes". [[User:Newimpartial|Newimpartial]] ([[User talk:Newimpartial|talk]]) 16:05, 2 February 2021 (UTC) |
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*:::::: I concur that this is DUE for mentioning in the lede, but the mention has to be short. "Alleged transphobia" shouldn't be used (there's no debate about her stance), maybe "perceived transphobia" ? [[User:Stuartyeates|Stuartyeates]] ([[User talk:Stuartyeates|talk]]) 22:21, 2 February 2021 (UTC) |
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*::::::: I wouldn't use "alleged transphobia" either, partly out of my generally post-humanist editorial preferences. Bastun has suggested {{tq|views often described as transphobic}}, which seems fine to me. [[User:Newimpartial|Newimpartial]] ([[User talk:Newimpartial|talk]]) 22:25, 2 February 2021 (UTC) |
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*'''Include in lead'''. It's a noticeable part of the article body, so worth a sentence or two in the lead. Pick your words carefully! --[[User:GRuban|GRuban]] ([[User talk:GRuban|talk]]) 22:27, 2 February 2021 (UTC) |
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*'''Include''' a sentence or two: the weight this continues to be given in reliable sources, and the amount of space it accordingly receives in both this article (which the [[WP:LEAD|lead is supposed to summarize]]) and its spinoff article about her views, shows it's not just [[WP:DUE]] but overdue. [[User:-sche|-sche]] ([[User talk:-sche|talk]]) 00:41, 3 February 2021 (UTC) |
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*'''include''' She's been pretty clear about her views and it has been a consistent recurring feature of her more recent activism and writing. Seems appropriate to mention in the lead. And I agree with [[User:-sche|-sche]], One or two sentences should do. --[[User:Licks-rocks|Licks-rocks]] ([[User talk:Licks-rocks|talk]]) 11:10, 3 February 2021 (UTC) |
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*'''Include''' - per -sche, this is now overdue. No more than one or two sentences needed. [[User:Bastun|<span style="font-family:Verdana, sans-serif">Bastun</span>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]</sup> 12:04, 3 February 2021 (UTC) |
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*'''Include, but it might take some rewriting''' I would say that the statements being covered in the popular media, even making it onto ''[[Saturday Night Live]]'', means that it should be mentioned. However, it should be fairly brief, considering that [[Orson Scott Card]]'s anti-gay views only get a sentence in the lead of his article. An argument against including it would be that her other political views aren't mentioned in the lead at all. [[User:Alexschmidt711|Alexschmidt711]] ([[User talk:Alexschmidt711|talk]]) 15:40, 3 February 2021 (UTC) |
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*: That may well be true, but Google Scholar shows more academic discussion of transphobia in relation to Rowling in 2020 than there has been academic discussion of Card and homophobia since the beginning of time (well, of Google Scholar). I know this has as much to do with the changing relationship between scholarship and popular culture/genre literature as it does with the underlying issues, but WP is supposed to offer a BALANCEd and DUE representation of the best sources, and that would tend to give these Rowling issues more prominence than the Card issues IMO. [[User:Newimpartial|Newimpartial]] ([[User talk:Newimpartial|talk]]) 17:08, 3 February 2021 (UTC) |
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*::Google Scholar includes many non-RS like theses, predatory journals, student papers, and the like. And "social commentary/critical theory" doesn't require experiments, so it tends to get churned out in these forms pretty readily. <span style="font-family:Palatino">[[User:Crossroads|'''Crossroads''']]</span> <sup>[[User talk:Crossroads|-talk-]]</sup> 18:24, 3 February 2021 (UTC) |
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*::: Fortunately I parse those sourcing issues when I use Google Scholar, rather than using raw hit counts - my comments here have been based on actual RS, excluding the chaff. And there is no need to take your hierarchy of sources out on me, at least not in such a public forum. Your views on what forms of scholarship are easier or harder to produce don't affect how we interpret the balance of scholarship ''within'' a domain. [[User:Newimpartial|Newimpartial]] ([[User talk:Newimpartial|talk]]) 18:38, 3 February 2021 (UTC) |
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*:: That would make sense to me, since Card isn't that well-known outside of sci-fi circles, meaning that he doesn't have that much effect on the discourse around gay rights, while Rowling is probably the most famous author in the world as well as one of the most famous people to espouse views associated with anti-transgender activism, especially so-called trans-exclusionary feminism. Under that argument her views might deserve more mention, especially if her publicity has suffered because of it. [[User:Alexschmidt711|Alexschmidt711]] ([[User talk:Alexschmidt711|talk]]) 23:54, 4 February 2021 (UTC) |
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*'''Include''' I am convinced that this controversy has risen to the level of due weight. However, I would focus on what Rowling has stated rather than characterizations of it. ([[User talk:Buidhe|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Buidhe|c]]) '''[[User:buidhe|<span style="color: black">buidhe</span>]]''' 21:47, 3 February 2021 (UTC) |
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*'''Include''' in lede as per [[User:GRuban|GRuban]], [[User:Bastun|<span style="font-family:Verdana, sans-serif">Bastun</span>]], [[User:-sche|-sche]], [[User:Licks-rocks|Licks-rocks]] and others all point out this both [[WP:DUE]] and long overdue. A lede should reflect the detail in the body, this highly reported biographic aspect is not going away. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><span class="autosigned" style="font-size:85%;">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Bodney|Bodney]] ([[User talk:Bodney#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Bodney|contribs]]) 00:59, 4 February 2021 (UTC)</span> |
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=== Discussion of draft 6 === |
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This talk page reads like a page were people come to give their verdict on whether JKR's words qualifies as transphobia on the basis of information provided by trans activist and various media personnel that perpetuate hate culture for clickbait headlines. Also you're verdict means nothing as many people and fans still support Rowling. |
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My intent was to work in everything mentioned under Draft 5, recognizing that the first sentence may still be a sticking point. My apologies if I missed anything (it's been quite a chore to keep up with this talk page :). {{pb}} Going forward, could people please remember that we are now at a state which is approaching final and would like others to weigh in, so please try to keep your feedback chronological, brief, and within a separate fourth-level heading when starting a new issue. All that said, I think great progress has been made, in a collegial and collaborative environment!! [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 16:53, 5 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:Sandy, for consistency with the previous drafts, I think these need to be flipped with the new one on the right and the historical on the left. Unless I'm missing something? [[User:Victoriaearle|Victoria]] ([[User talk:Victoriaearle|tk]]) 20:28, 5 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::I left a note about that at the top of [[#Draft 6]]; when editing to make changes, it's easier if the version being edited is first. I often had to start over, as I entered changes in the old version when trying to change the draft, so having the draft first is easier. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 21:08, 5 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:You DO realise that her article "TERF wars" provides the most damning evidence, in fact it is a textbook example of TERF? |
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:::Sorry, I shouldn't have peeked while multi-tasking. Sorry for clogging up the page. Will get back to it later when I can focus. [[User:Victoriaearle|Victoria]] ([[User talk:Victoriaearle|tk]]) 22:48, 5 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:And about the "belief"-lawsuit of her protegé that started the row, a UK court of law decided that "to believe to not accept trans-women are women" does not qualify as a protected belief because it goes against the rules and customs of a peaceful democratic state? |
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:So, if "FACT and LAW" are observed, an official UK court of law found by due process that the exact "beliefs" Rowling so vehemently and repeatedly defends are considered [[hate-speech]]? |
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:If that makes an ordinary UK court of law "woke" in your opinion, you may want to join forces with one of Rowling's most vehement defenders, a gentleman named [[Carl Benjamin]]. --[[Special:Contributions/82.113.106.249|82.113.106.249]] ([[User talk:82.113.106.249|talk]]) 01:29, 28 February 2021 (UTC) |
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: That comment does not provide any policy-based rationale for the inclusion or exclusion of material in the lede. Also, WP is not a fan wiki. [[User:Newimpartial|Newimpartial]] ([[User talk:Newimpartial|talk]]) 23:39, 6 February 2021 (UTC) |
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*'''Not in the lead'''. This twitterstorm stuff has nothing whatsoever to do with the subject's notability. This is not CancelCulturePedia. (Put it this way: If the lead at [[Donald Trump]] covered every "controversy" about something Trump said in social media that pissed off some subset of people, the lead of that article would be 10 × longer than the entire article on every other president.) Regardless, what Buidhe said here also applies to the material in the body of the article: "focus on what Rowling has stated rather than characterizations of it". <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 06:22, 7 February 2021 (UTC)<p>PS: {{em|If}} we're going to include something in the lead about this, then the wording I see right now, "Since 2020, her transgender-related views have received criticism from some LGBT organizations and support from some feminists.", seems neutral, correct, and entirely adequate. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 07:52, 7 February 2021 (UTC) |
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*: Your view that the statements of the article's subject on this matter are more DUE for inclusion than analysis of them in peer-reviewed academic publications is interesting, to say the least. Care to expand on that? [[User:Newimpartial|Newimpartial]] ([[User talk:Newimpartial|talk]]) 06:51, 7 February 2021 (UTC) |
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*::Given that I [[straw man|didn't say anything like that]], I'm not in a position to "expand on that". <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 07:52, 7 February 2021 (UTC) |
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*:::Given that you dismiss the issue as "twitterstorm stuff", in the wake of essays, rebuttals, extensive coverage in mainstream media and in academia, it was a fair question. As pointed out above, the "some feminists" wording is problematic, as it implies she has not received criticism from other feminists - and she has. [[User:Bastun|<span style="font-family:Verdana, sans-serif">Bastun</span>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]</sup> 11:48, 7 February 2021 (UTC) |
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*::: SMcCandlish, my argument in response to Crossroads - that the coverage in academic sources made Rowling's statements DUE for the lede - was part of the discussion within which you were !voting when you said {{tq|focus on what Rowling has stated}}. So no straw was used in the juxtaposition I made; it reflected the actual intervention you chose to make. [[User:Newimpartial|Newimpartial]] ([[User talk:Newimpartial|talk]]) 14:20, 7 February 2021 (UTC) |
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==== First sentence: feedback needed ==== |
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*As pointed out above, it is '''absolutely not the case''' that feminists exclusively support JKR. ''Some'' do. Some stand with transgender people in opposition to her views. It is completely disingenuous to state otherwise in WP's voice. [[User:Bastun|<span style="font-family:Verdana, sans-serif">Bastun</span>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]</sup> 21:06, 20 February 2021 (UTC) |
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*This is a substantial improvement. I'd delete "espoused" without replacement, and I'd simplify "Beginning in" to "Since", and then I'm happyish with it.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 00:26, 6 May 2024 (UTC) |
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*:Implemented [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:J._K._Rowling&diff=prev&oldid=1222449061 beginning in --> since.]. {{pb}} On the opening sentence, now that the rest of the para gives more context (the laws and the self-identification without diagnosis), I would probably be OK with that as well, but I'll wait to hear from others before implementing that change in the draft. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 00:48, 6 May 2024 (UTC) |
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*::It reads okay without "espoused". If we keep it, suggest converting to present tense - "espouses". Lets see what others say. [[User:Victoriaearle|Victoria]] ([[User talk:Victoriaearle|tk]]) 13:29, 6 May 2024 (UTC) |
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*:::I prefer the version without "espoused", and I agree if we do keep it, it should at least be present tense. [[User:LokiTheLiar|Loki]] ([[User talk:LokiTheLiar|talk]]) 14:12, 6 May 2024 (UTC) |
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*:::Changed to present tense. On the rest, my concern is that we cite three scholarly sources who quite carefully do ''not'' label her as such, rather state that ''some'' do. Wikipedia does not lead; it follows sources. I'd feel much better about flat out labeling her if we had three scholarly sources which did that. (I've included the exact quotes from the sources; the reasons we can't label her flat out are already covered in the section just above this one, [[#"Transgender people" section should be re-titled as "Transphobia"]]. And the section name should be "Transgender rights".) [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 14:27, 6 May 2024 (UTC) |
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*:::: Followup from [[WP:BLP]]: {{tq|"Material about living persons added to {{em|any}} Wikipedia page '''must be written with the greatest care and attention''' to [[Wikipedia:Verifiability|verifiability]], [[Wikipedia:Neutral point of view|neutrality]], and [[Wikipedia:No original research|avoidance of original research]]."}} {{pb}} In the interest of moving forward, I have attempted to find a compromise ("espouses views") for this area of disagreement. I have always been willing to install content developed by consensus on talk to the article even when I disagree with that content; I can't do that in this case, as without sources, I believe the proposed changes to the first sentence breach BLP. We can't label Rowling "gender-critical" in the absence of high-quality sources that do so. The sources we have so far do not do that. {{pb}} Our options at this point are: 1) find scholarly sources labeling her outright, 2) wait for more feedback, 3) someone besides me installs the draft should consensus form to add what I believe to be a BLP breach, or 4) run an RFC (do we install before the RFC, or wait a full month to get something installed, or find an interim compromise?). [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 17:56, 6 May 2024 (UTC) |
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*:::::It's really important to be fully immersed in the sources to understand the nuances, and I'm not convinced an RFC would be helpful at this point. I'm fine with "espouses" because that's really the best that can be done with the sources. I'm wondering whether the sources support that she's outspoken? If so, can we simply say something along the lines that "Rowling has been vocal about her gender-critical beliefs". Sorry, I'm not feeling well today, so this is just brainstorming and an imperfectly framed idea and I don't have sources open to check, so feel free to ignore. P.s - thanks Sandy for the work on the talkpage - I got caught in a number of edit conflicts earlier. [[User:Victoriaearle|Victoria]] ([[User talk:Victoriaearle|tk]]) 18:22, 6 May 2024 (UTC) |
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*:::::After walking away for a bit of perspective & then re-reading this evening, "espouses" seems fine to me. [[User:Victoriaearle|Victoria]] ([[User talk:Victoriaearle|tk]]) 23:17, 7 May 2024 (UTC) |
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*Scholarly sources are written for scholars, so there are things they don't say. |
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:The sun is quite large and rather hot. But you won't find a paper in an astronomical journal that says so. The paper might give specifics of the sun's temperature at various depths, its diameter, its mass, its density or its circumference. But if you need to explain in a Wikipedia article that the sun is big and hot, scholarly sources are no good at all. Because the astronomy professors are writing for an audience that knows about stars, there are things they don't have to say and they don't waste words on. |
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:Therefore you need a source that says the sun is big and hot, you have to go to a non-academic source. |
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:But, Sandy, I want to ask you to stop and think here. If, as it seems, you can genuinely read the sources on Rowling and not think she has gender-critical views, then really, how objective are you about this?—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 00:13, 7 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::I agree with you that we shouldn't require scholarly sources specifically if we have good quality [[WP:NEWSORG]] ones. But I do sympathize somewhat with Sandy here: this is a featured article on a BLP and we do need to make sure we can clearly source everything we say about her. [[User:LokiTheLiar|Loki]] ([[User talk:LokiTheLiar|talk]]) 02:17, 7 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::Re S Marshall, the "sun is hot" analogy doesn't apply to this situation for two reasons. |
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::# We have three high-quality sources (that multiple editors seem to agree are good scholarly sources) that quite specifically are ''not silent'' on the topic, as an astronomy professor may be on whether the sun is hot. The academics we have so far ''do'' address the matter by specifically ''not'' saying that JKR is a TERF, rather they clearly state that some say she is, while others disagree. Silence on the "sun is hot" is not the situation here. |
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::# Since the sun is not a [[WP:BLP|living person]], Wikipedia doesn't have a Wikipedia policy to make sure we don't defame it. |
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::We can't use lower quality sources to refute good academic sources that we have on this matter, and Wikipedia can't be the first to say something that high quality sources, when specifically addressing the matter, have not said as far as we know. {{pb}} Re your final question, perhaps you would stop and think about whether you want to be the first editor in several years to personalize a discussion on this, or the FAR, talk page? What any of us ''thinks'' is irrelevant; our content is guided by policy and sources. If there really are no scholarly sources or academics willing to label JKR a TERF, then we should be moving forward on an alternate way to frame the first sentence; compromise should not be hard, considering there are many ways to frame the sentence. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 02:51, 7 May 2024 (UTC) |
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*::All right then. |
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:::We need one phrase that encapsulates J. K. Rowling's views on sex and gender. In draft 6, we've already decided and agreed that she: |
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:::# Opposes gender self-recognition; |
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:::# Accuses trans women of being men; |
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:::# Believes sex is real, or at least, warns of dire consequences of thinking sex isn't real; and |
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:::# Denies being transphobic. |
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:::These are of course the precise views we cover in [[Gender-critical feminism]], with a long string of academic references for the definition. But also at issue here is the law, and there's also a legal definition of what gender-critical views are, from the judgment in [https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/60c1cce1d3bf7f4bd9814e39/Maya_Forstater_v_CGD_Europe_and_others_UKEAT0105_20_JOJ.pdf Maya Forstater -v- CGD Europe & ors]. They include: ''The belief that sex is immutable and not to be conflated with gender identity...'' [which are] ''...absolutist in nature and whereby...'' [Forstater would] ''...refer to a person by the sex she considers appropriate even if it violates their dignity and/or creates an intimidating, hostile, degrading or offensive environment.'' According to the Tribunal, this is the element of gender-critical views that amounts to a protected philosophical belief. It's even more simply encapsulated (at page 3) as: ''the Claimant’s belief as to the immutability of sex''. (This is the Law of England and Wales. Unfortunately for 13tez, Maya Forstater's case isn't about Scots Law.) |
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:::Therefore, J. K. Rowling's views on sex and gender meet both the academic and legal tests for what a gender-critical belief is. QED. |
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:::The objection is that a sufficiently academic source doesn't say so. Wikipedia does have a problem with this. We use hedges like: "[Donald] Trump's political positions are viewed by some as right-wing populist" (from [[Political positions of Donald Trump]]), because to say Donald Trump is a right wing populist in wikivoice would be sooo controversial.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 08:07, 7 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::: I feel it should be pointed out that this section "[Forstater would] ''...refer to a person by the sex she considers appropriate even if it violates their dignity and/or creates an intimidating, hostile, degrading or offensive environment.''" is the Appeal Tribunal quoting the first instance judgement, and was an interpretation disputed in that appeal. The Appeal judgement found that "''On a proper reading of the Judgment, the Tribunal was stating that the Claimant would not use preferred pronouns whenever she considered it appropriate not to do so. That must mean that she would not use them where she considered it to be relevant. If that is correct, then the description “absolutist” would appear to be something of a misnomer as her position was more nuanced and context dependent''." Absolutism and an automatic rejection of preferred pronouns are not therefore part of the legal definition of the protected gender-critical belief in the UK. [[User:Daff22|Daff22]] ([[User talk:Daff22|talk]]) 11:56, 7 May 2024 (UTC) |
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==== Unnecessary attribution ? ==== |
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::The formulation in the lede ''"Since 2020, her transgender-related views have received criticism from some LGBT organisations and feminists, and support from some other feminists"'' is not a good one. It is biased, in that the criticism (including from feminists) is presented much more prominently than the support; and it also implies that the only people/organizations expressing views on what Rowling has said are either LGBT organizations or feminists, which is certainly not true. If that paragraph remains in the lede, a more simplified form, such as "Since 2020, her transgender-related views have received both criticism and support" might be more appropriate. [[Special:Contributions/2A02:2F01:53FF:FFFF:0:0:6465:6975|2A02:2F01:53FF:FFFF:0:0:6465:6975]] ([[User talk:2A02:2F01:53FF:FFFF:0:0:6465:6975|talk]]) 07:14, 21 February 2021 (UTC) |
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Re {{tq2|In an essay posted on her website in June 2020 – that Tolonda Henderson[35] and Whited state left trans people feeling betrayed[12] – Rowling said her views ... }} Could we drop the attribution, and make this just: {{tq2|In an essay posted on her website in June 2020 – that left trans people feeling betrayed[12][35] – Rowling said her views .... }} My impression is that this is a widely supported statement, so that the attribution is creating a false impression, not needed, and only clunking up the sentence. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 17:56, 6 May 2024 (UTC) |
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*Imv: Yes, drop it.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 18:02, 6 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:I agree we can drop the attribution there. [[User:LokiTheLiar|Loki]] ([[User talk:LokiTheLiar|talk]]) 18:03, 6 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Oh, agreed, my contribution was clunky as hell, and made in a hurry when I noticed what had been added without mention here, despite a specific request that that wording ''not'' be used, as it is absolutely a breach of NPOV. I'll [[WP:IAR|be bold]] and replace it with your sentence now; and if people want to revert and discuss further, that's fine too. (''Mea culpa'' for not noticing the change when it happened). [[User:Bastun|<span style="font-family:Verdana, sans-serif">Bastun</span>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]</sup> 10:48, 21 February 2021 (UTC) |
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::[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:J._K._Rowling&diff=prev&oldid=1222643520 Done], [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 02:55, 7 May 2024 (UTC) |
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==== Thoughts from Scientelensia==== |
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There is ample of time to come up with an appropriate formulation on the talk page before editing the article. Imho a single sentence along the line "Her views of <s>LGBTQ</s> transgender issues have been croticized by some" or "Her views of the <s>LGBTQ</s> transgender community are subject to controvery" should suffice. Details on who criticizes or supports what of her views need to go in the main text or in the special WP article of that subject.--[[User:Kmhkmh|Kmhkmh]] ([[User talk:Kmhkmh|talk]]) 11:30, 21 February 2021 (UTC) |
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Regarding this part: “In April 2024, responding to Scotland's Hate Crime and Public Order Act, she tweeted a list of trans women, writing that they are "men, every last one of them".” |
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* Could it be changed to this (or a shorter version of it)? “After the [[Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Act 2021]] had come into force in April 2024, Rowling, who resides in Edinburgh, took to [[X (social network)|X]] to criticise the bill, stating that "freedom of speech and belief" was at an end if accurate description of biological sex was outlawed. She further posted a list of transgender women, and wrote that they were "men, every last one of them".<ref>{{Cite web|url=https://deadline.com/2024/04/jk-rowling-scotland-hate-crime-law-1235872981/|title=J.K. Rowling Mocks Trans Women To Defy Scotland's New Hate Crime Law: "I Look Forward To Being Arrested"|website=deadline.com|access-date=3 April 2024|archive-date=1 April 2024|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20240401190451/https://deadline.com/2024/04/jk-rowling-scotland-hate-crime-law-1235872981/|url-status=live}}</ref> Rowling also said: "Scottish lawmakers seem to have placed higher value on the feelings of men performing their idea of femaleness, however misogynistically or opportunistically, than on the rights and freedoms of actual women and girls."<ref>{{cite web |title= JK Rowling in ‘arrest me’ challenge over hate crime law |url= https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c51j64lk2l8o |website=BBC News |access-date=8 April 2024 |date=1 April 2024}}</ref>” |
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My main criticsm of this draft (though it is much better than before) is that: |
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* The actors who didn’t support Rowling are in the main text, the others are merely a note. I understand the difference between main and supporting actors, but it does seem that those who oppose Rowling are being given more prominence. Intentions could be misconstrued. As for scholarly sources (which Sandy Georgia wanted; these are surely adequate I hope):<ref name=FiennesSupport>{{cite web|title= Ralph Fiennes: Verbal abuse directed at JK Rowling is disgusting and appalling |url= https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/10/24/ralph-fiennes-verbal-abuse-directed-jk-rowling-disgusting-appalling/ |publisher=[[The Daily Telegraph|The Telegraph]] |date=24 October 2022 |access-date=13 December 2022 |url-status=live}}</ref><ref name=BonhamCarterSupport>{{cite web|title= 'It's horrendous': Helena Bonham Carter defends JK Rowling and Johnny Depp |url= https://www.theguardian.com/film/2022/nov/28/helena-bonham-carter-defends-jk-rowling-and-johnny-depp |work=The Guardian |date=28 October 2022 |access-date=30 November 2022 |url-status=live}}</ref><ref name=SupportMargolyes>{{cite web|title= JK Rowling: Miriam Margolyes says anger at Harry Potter author over trans views has been 'misplaced' |url= https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/news/miriam-margolyes-jk-rowling-trans-b2060541.html |work=The Independent |date=19 April 2022 |access-date=16 December 2022 |url-status=live}}</ref><ref name=SupportColtrane>{{cite web|title= Robbie Coltrane says JK Rowling transphobia critics ‘hang around waiting to be offended’ |url= https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/news/robbie-coltrane-jk-rowling-transphobic-tweet-hagrid-troubled-blood-b445069.html |work=The Independent |access-date=7 May 2024 |url-status=live}}</ref> (for example). From Scientelensia (17:47, May 7, 2024) |
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* Another main criticism is that this paragraph… |
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: Fans turned away from her work, boycotted events, and publishers hesitated to accept her work. Criticism came from the Harry Potter fansites MuggleNet and The Leaky Cauldron, and LGBT charities Mermaids, Stonewall, and Human Rights Campaign. GLAAD called Rowling's comments "cruel" and "inaccurate". Leading actors of the Wizarding World spoke out against her stance; Daniel Radcliffe, Emma Watson, Rupert Grint, Eddie Redmayne and others declared support for the transgender community. After Kerry Kennedy expressed "profound disappointment" in her views, Rowling returned the Ripple of Hope Award given to her by the Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights organisation. |
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: …almost wholly only lists critics from organisations. No support for her has been mentioned at all, which arguably displays bias as there was a lot of support for her also. From Scientelensia (20:04, May 7, 2024) |
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* The last paragraph also fails to mention any praise for JK Rowling’s essay; only criticism. Only the views of trans people are considered. See for example: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-55350905. From Scientelensia (20:08, May 7, 2024) |
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{{reflist-talk}} |
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==== Thoughts from Victoria ==== |
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::"Her views on the LGBTQ community" is not appropriate because she was referring only to transgender issues; also she was not referring to the "community" as such, but rather to some types of activism. But I do agree that "Details on who criticizes or supports what of her views need to go in the main text or in the special WP article of that subject". [[Special:Contributions/2A02:2F01:5EFF:FFFF:0:0:6465:6412|2A02:2F01:5EFF:FFFF:0:0:6465:6412]] ([[User talk:2A02:2F01:5EFF:FFFF:0:0:6465:6412|talk]]) 19:16, 21 February 2021 (UTC) |
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A couple of thoughts to keep things moving. |
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*First, there's been a sustained effort to improve what's currently in the article & in my view that's a Good Thing. Pats on the back all around! |
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*Second, re first sentence. What we have is honestly fine. There are other options too. I'm not convinced that [[Wikipedia:CONTROVERSY]] applies - it's an essay about articles rather than about one section in an BLP. Following that line of thought, then we can write something like Rowling's remarks/comments (pick the word) have been/are controversial. This [https://www.glamour.com/story/a-complete-breakdown-of-the-jk-rowling-transgender-comments-controversy Glamour article] (very long) has been continually updated for a number of years & is cited by a number of the literary critics. The verbiage they use is that J.K. Rowling has come "under fire" for controversial tweets (not verbatim, but very very close). We should either stick with the first sentence as written in Draft 6 or consider rewriting along the lines of the controversial tweets verbiage. |
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*Third, re scholarly sources: Rowling is a productive writer - something like 20 works in 25 years - and the reason this article exists is because of her writing career. Because she's a writer, literary critics do what literary critics do - hence scholarly sources. For this topic in Rowling's bio, those sources simply distill news sources and are now the desired secondary sources. |
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*Fourth, I think Scientelensia raises points that are maybe worth considering. Back when we were discussing Draft 3 it became clear that draft had veered into discussing what others were saying about Rowling, rather than what Rowling says/believes. To veer back, we might consider trimming or even cutting the text in the third para beginning from "Criticism came from the Harry Potter fansites ... " possibly to the end of the paragraph. If so, the text can focus on Rowling & there'd be fewer words. |
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Personally, I think we're almost there. In fact, I think we could take the "it's good enough" route and say that Draft 6 is good to go. What do others think? [[User:Victoriaearle|Victoria]] ([[User talk:Victoriaearle|tk]]) 23:22, 8 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:My general thoughts are that while there are things I'd change if I could write it entirely myself, I think that Draft 6 is basically fine and I'm not that interested in getting in a big fight about what are essentially small quibbles. [[User:LokiTheLiar|Loki]] ([[User talk:LokiTheLiar|talk]]) 23:41, 8 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:Rowling has been referred to as a [[TERF|trans-exclusionary radical feminist (TERF)]] on multiple occasions, though she rejects the label.<ref>{{Cite web|last=López|first=Canela|title=J.K. Rowling wrote a controversial statement about transgender people in response to being called a 'TERF.' Here's what that means.|url=https://www.insider.com/jk-rowling-what-is-a-terf-trans-exclusionary-radical-feminist-2020-6|access-date=5 July 2020|website=Insider}}</ref> Because of the controversy, she became widely quoted by far-right influencers.<ref>eg [[Carl Benjamin]]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sH781lETcyM and other videos</ref> Her book "Troubled Blood" has been criticised for transphobia because the antagonist is described as a gender non conforming crossdresser, in line with the stereotype of the trans-woman she consistently attacks for intruding into female safe spaces.<ref>eg Samantha Lux, "JK Rowling is Transphobic?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUkq7xMOiyA</ref> |
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:I'm concerned that the proposal has veered into non-neutral territory by overfocusing on one academic writer (Whited) rather than a [[WP:WIAFA|thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature]]. A survey of the entire literature would not have seen us drop the one sentence in the article that is [[WP:RECENTISM|most likely to endure beyond what any Hollywood star said or thinks]]. "Her statements have divided feminists; fuelled debates on freedom of speech, academic freedom and cancel culture ... " and more). But this is not a hill worth dying on; I wouldn't mind if we install and move on, but if I had my druthers we'd move the list of all actors and organizations to footnotes (who is surprised at the list of charities?), and restore and expand instead the content that will endure beyond Hollywood -- that is, the overall and lasting cultural effects of the whole brouhaha as reflected in a variety of scholarly sources. A thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature produces scholarly analyses of linguistics, hate speech, fandom, feminism, women's rights, trans rights, etc -- much more than passing opinions of Radcliffe, Watson and anyone else who spends the GDP of a small country to attend the Met Gala. I don't think the draft is POV enough to tag it as such, the POV is subtle, and I won't protest if it goes in, but somewhere along the way, neutrality was dropped in the content that was excised. My solution is different than Scientelensia's; rather than add in those who support her, delete all of that recentism, and focus on a survey of the literature and the broader issues raised. But if someone wants to install now, I won't object. I still believe the section heading should be "Transgender rights". I don't think Draft 6 is FA material, but the rest of the article is, so neither do I think a FAR is in order; it's good enough, but won't endure. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 01:25, 9 May 2024 (UTC) |
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The first part is right from the article, only moved to the lead. The second part references her newest hate-speech book to sensibilese for its problematic transphobic undertones. --[[Special:Contributions/82.113.99.11|82.113.99.11]] ([[User talk:82.113.99.11|talk]]) 18:25, 21 February 2021 (UTC) |
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::Your solution would work also, but there would also have to be rigorous testing to ensure that the selection of literary works constitutes an unbiased interpretation. [[User:Scientelensia|Scientelensia]] ([[User talk:Scientelensia|talk]]) 16:19, 9 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::We don't engage in [[WP:OR]] like this based on [[WP:RS|unreliable primary sources]] like YouTube videos. And this is pretty blatantly one-sided and POV. <span style="font-family:Palatino">[[User:Crossroads|'''Crossroads''']]</span> <sup>[[User talk:Crossroads|-talk-]]</sup> 21:28, 21 February 2021 (UTC) |
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:::1. Looking back at Victoria's fourth point, I agree; that's where in my view most precious real estate (word count) is misspent on excess detail, and trimming that would give us room to work back in some neutrality and replace some RECENTISM with enduring content. {{tq2|Criticism came from the Harry Potter fansites MuggleNet and The Leaky Cauldron, and LGBT charities Mermaids, Stonewall, and Human Rights Campaign. GLAAD called Rowling's comments "cruel" and "inaccurate". Leading actors of the Wizarding World spoke out against her stance; Daniel Radcliffe, Emma Watson, Rupert Grint, Eddie Redmayne and others declared support for the transgender community. }} could become {{tq2|Criticism came from Harry Potter fansites, LGBT charities, and leading actors of the Wizarding World.}} by moving the detail to a footnote. That word count could be better used on more enduring issues. |
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:::Are you joking? In her "Troubled Blood"-article, there are half a dozen magazine articles describing the problems. Those are belittled by "some transgender activists say...", right after that two articles calling those criticisms "libelous". "YouTube videos" are not "unreliable sources" or "reliable sources", but depend on the credentials of the authors (like, eg, newspapers, journals and books do, too). |
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:::2. Whited may have said this, but here's where neutrality is particularly lost: {{tq|"Fans turned away from her work, boycotted events, and publishers hesitated to accept her work."}} In fact, book sales increased, Universal Studios is expanding Harry Potter World, a TV series is in the works, Maya Forstater was exonerated, etc ... so while the statement is true to some extent and for many people, it's factually inaccurate in terms of leaving out the big picture, and redundant to territory already covered in the first point above. Dropping the sentence is an alternative to discuss. |
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:::The linked video is from [[Carl Benjamin]], a well-known right-wing activist. [[WP:RS]] obviously doesn't see his YouTube career, which is the reason why he is known, has been interviewed by the BBC, and has been able to try to enter politics in [[UKIP]] in the first place. |
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:::3. Looking back at [[Talk:J._K._Rowling#Fourth_draft|Draft 4]] reveals the problem with trying to write an encyclopedic entry with topic sentences: doing so can result in a POV construction that leads the reader (I forget which article is on a record number of [[WP:FAC|FACs]] for this very problem, which has proven insurmountable). Grouping like content logically by paragraphs avoids wasting wordcount in ways that risk leading the reader or telling the reader what a paragraph is about; just the facts, and let the reader make their own decision. |
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:::If the linked article in your opinion is also [[WP:RS]], then [[WP:Be Bold]] and just pick one more of the articles that discuss the issue in the "Troubled Blood"-article. |
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:::4. I agree with Scientelensia that the sentence {{tq|she tweeted a list of trans women, writing that they are "men, every last one of them"}} needs a few more clauses for context and relevance, although I wouldn't take as many words as Scientelensia suggests. |
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:::After in her "Terf wars" essay, Rowling sugar-coated a TERF as "brave" and only claiming to "believe in sex" which, in fact, called trans-women "Blackface Actors" who need to "Fuck you", called a trans-woman a "good feminist ''ally'' and seriously explained that she wasn't a TERF ''because her feminism also included '''trans-men'''(!)'', there is no wiggle-room left whatsoever to see Rowling as anything other than a TERF. |
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:::5. And after doing that wordcount reduction, use the gained space to rework and update the enduring content based on [[WP:WIAFA|a survey of the literature]], which was: {{tq|Her statements have divided feminists; fuelled debates on freedom of speech and cancel culture; and prompted declarations of support for transgender people from the literary, arts and culture sectors}} ... we seem to have lost academic freedom, and there's plenty of scholarly literature on how fandom has evolved, and the power of Twitter. |
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:::Weasel-Words like "some LGBTQ+-''activists''" against "some ''feminists''" don't cut it, ''especially'' since the term "TERF" was coined by a self-described radical feminist (and not, as Rowling wrongly states, "trans-activists") just to be able to distance herself from self-proclaimed "radical feminists" who excluded trans-women. She later said that the actions of TERFs in fact disqualified them as "feminist" and said a better term would be "TES" (Trans-Exclusionary Separatists). |
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:::We could put in Draft 6 now, but it is POV and we'll be back here in less than two years to repair the damage we inflicted. {{u|Victoriaearle}} I had my turn; are you interested in working up Draft 7 ?[[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 16:55, 9 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::So, from all her own words and actions, Rowling is a textbook example of the ideology that is commonly understood as "TERF" and, outside of the UK, derided by the vast majority of self-identifying feminists. |
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::::PS, my separate and growing concern is that none of the three main FA authors have shown up to update the rest of the article to reflect Whited 2024, so if that doesn't happen, we're likely to end up at [[WP:FAR|FAR]] anyway. I think we made a mistake in over-relying on Whited for transgender content, but she certainly should be used for updating literary content. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 16:58, 9 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Could we please stick to the facts, not to Rowling's PR? You know, [[WP:NPOV]]? If it walks like a TERF, quacks like a TERF, tweets like a TERF, and writes a lengthy essay about "TERF wars" checking every box of TERFdom, it's a TERF. Regardless of what she herself calls herself. |
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::::@[[User:SandyGeorgia|SandyGeorgia]] You suggest {{!xt|Criticism came from Harry Potter fansites, LGBT charities, and leading actors of the Wizarding World.}}, but that implies (to me) all "leading" actors, which isn't true. Either define "leading actors", or quantify with "most", "some", etc. [[User:Bazza_7|Bazza <span style="color:grey">7</span>]] ([[User_talk:Bazza_7|talk]]) 21:13, 9 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::--[[Special:Contributions/82.113.106.249|82.113.106.249]] ([[User talk:82.113.106.249|talk]]) 01:29, 28 February 2021 (UTC) |
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:::::Yep, I wasn't trying to wordsmith the thing yet ... just give the broad points I'd do if we started over. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 21:23, 9 May 2024 (UTC) |
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*I think it made more sense to say who, broadly, is on each 'side', since it's pretty obvious that there are others on each side besides the most prominent groups. <span style="font-family:Palatino">[[User:Crossroads|'''Crossroads''']]</span> <sup>[[User talk:Crossroads|-talk-]]</sup> 21:28, 21 February 2021 (UTC) |
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:::::{{u|SandyGeorgia|Sandy}} please excuse my brevity, but I'm not at all able at this time. Will get back here when able. Sorry. [[User:Victoriaearle|Victoria]] ([[User talk:Victoriaearle|tk]]) 23:27, 9 May 2024 (UTC) |
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**That isn't what you did, though. Your formulation pitted "some LGBT groups" against "some feminists" - which was clearly not the case, as many feminists oppose JKR's views on transgender issues. [[User:Bastun|<span style="font-family:Verdana, sans-serif">Bastun</span>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]</sup> 00:30, 22 February 2021 (UTC) |
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***That wasn't my formulation; [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=J._K._Rowling&diff=1004962299&oldid=1004031889 "LGBT organizations and others"] was. Hippo43 then changed it. I don't doubt one bit that some feminists side with the LGBT organizations, but the article doesn't specify that, so I couldn't add it to the lead. And the fact is that "some feminists" is clear that other feminists feel differently, which is why "some" is there. <span style="font-family:Palatino">[[User:Crossroads|'''Crossroads''']]</span> <sup>[[User talk:Crossroads|-talk-]]</sup> 06:08, 22 February 2021 (UTC) |
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****"Some feminists" and "some LGBT-activists" are both [[WP:Weasel words]]. Fact is, and you can consult the [[TERF]]-article to check it, that the vast majority of self-described feminists are not TERFs and are most certainly not on the "side" of Rowling. One of them, BTW, is Emma Watson ("Hermione" in the Harry Potter films). Even in the article about [[Troubled Blood]], about a dozen references criticise her and source why it is a work of [[transphobia]], and only two references defend Rowling (by deriding all the others as "libelous" or "slanderous"), albeit in the article, they are quoted disproportionately detailed. |
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::::Rowling called a feminist trans-woman "an ally" and claims "feminism" was not "trans-exclusionary" because it ''included trans-men'' - which in practice does ''exactly'' what she claims trans-women hurt "female safe-spaces" with: letting quasi-indistinguishable men who have no business there in, and there are ample example of cis-women rejected in women's shelters because they looked more masculine than the "female norm". |
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::::One of the women she vehemently defended and still defends had her appeal to her lay-off rejected because "not believing trans-women are women" goes against the norms and customs of a pluralist democracy and is [[hate-speech]]. |
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::::Another she describes as "brave" and "just believing in the reality of sex" (which, BTW, trans-people of course do also) tweeted that trans-women were "black-face actors" and should "fuck" themselves. |
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::::Rowling is an author, and knows how to mince words. The very second you take a broader view, however, you see enough unambiguous reasons in her own articles that make her a TERF. |
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::::Someone else brought up [[Orson Scott Card]]. Good example. He is considered trans-phobic, which is in his article, unmarred by weasel-words. Card hasn't given nearly as much reason to consider him trans-phobic as Rowling has proven her TERF-ideology again and again and again, even in an article she wrote to ''defend'' against being called a TERF. The facts simply leave no other conclusion. |
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::::--[[Special:Contributions/82.113.106.249|82.113.106.249]] ([[User talk:82.113.106.249|talk]]) 01:49, 28 February 2021 (UTC) |
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===Draft 6.3=== |
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Since I agree that all of Sandy's proposed elisions improve the text, I've made them. I've made no effort to add the suggested new content, and I view cutting words as more important.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 16:31, 10 May 2024 (UTC) |
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{| class="wikitable" |
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! style="width: 30em;" | Draft 6.3: 403 words |
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! style="width: 30em;" | Historical: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=J._K._Rowling&oldid=1202117364#Transgender_people 429 words] |
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|- |
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|| {{Main|Political views of J. K. Rowling#Transgender rights}} |
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:::::It's obvious that we cannot use the term "[[TERF]]" in wikipedia's voice. Rowling's views on trans issues are explained in the relevant section, and it must stay neutral. On the employment case of Maya Forstater, I think it's important to add to the article that her employment case is ongoing, as she has appealed the decision, so the final outcome of this case is not yet decided (also her tweets and views were not deemed [[hate speech]] by the judge). I want to point out that claims made about Maya Forstater, including on talk pages, also fall under [[WP:BLP]]. [[Special:Contributions/2A02:2F01:58FF:FFFF:0:0:6465:5741|2A02:2F01:58FF:FFFF:0:0:6465:5741]] ([[User talk:2A02:2F01:58FF:FFFF:0:0:6465:5741|talk]]) 02:07, 1 March 2021 (UTC) |
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<!-- Overview --> |
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{{reftalk}} |
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Rowling has ''[some contributors want to add a qualifier here]'' [[Feminist views on transgender topics#Gender-critical feminism and trans-exclusionary radical feminism|gender-critical]] views.{{sfn|Whited|2024|loc= p. 7. "But in June 2020, Rowling's manifesto led some people to label her as a trans-exclusionary radical feminist (TERF), a term first used in 2008 that has more recently evolved as 'gender critical'."}}{{sfn|Steinfeld|2020|loc= pp. 34–35. "Just ask JK Rowling and other women who have been labelled as Terfs"}}{{sfn|Schwirblat|Freberg|Freberg|2022|loc= pp. 367–368. "This sparked a heated discussion within the Twitter community, one side buttressing Rowling's statements, and the other espousing her as a trans-exclusionary radical feminist (TERF)"}} She resists proposed changes to UK law that would make it simpler to transition without a medical diagnosis. She is concerned that easier transitions could affect access to female-only spaces and legal protections for women.<ref name= Milne2020>{{cite web|first1= Amber |last1=Milne|first2 = Rachel| last2 =Savage | url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-lgbt-rowling-explainer-trfn-idUSKBN23I3AI | title=Explainer: J. K. Rowling and trans women in single-sex spaces: what's the furore? | publisher=[[Reuters]] | date=11 June 2020 | access-date=6 April 2021 }}</ref><ref name= Brooks2020>{{Cite news|last=Brooks|first=Libby|date=11 June 2020|title=Why is JK Rowling speaking out now on sex and gender debate? |url= http://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/jun/11/why-is-jk-rowling-speaking-out-now-on-sex-and-gender-debate|access-date=14 January 2022 |work= [[The Guardian]] }}</ref><ref name=Kottasova2019>{{cite news |title= J.K. Rowling's 'transphobia' tweet row spotlights a fight between equality campaigners and radical feminists |first1= Ivana |last1= Kottasová |first2= Scottie |last2= Andrew |publisher= [[CNN]] |date= 20 December 2019|url= https://edition.cnn.com/2019/12/20/uk/jk-rowling-transgender-explainer-intl-gbr/index.html |access-date= 5 May 2024}}</ref>{{efn|The laws and proposed changes are the UK [[Gender Recognition Act 2004]] and the Scotland [[Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill|Gender Recognition Reform Bill]]; related also are the UK [[Equality Act 2010]]{{sfn|Pedersen|2022|loc=Abstract}}{{sfn|Suissa|Sullivan|2021|pp=66–69}}{{sfn|Duggan|2021|loc=PDF pp. 14–15 (160–161)}} and the Scotland Gender Representation on Public Boards Act of 2018.<ref>{{cite news |last1=Watson |first1=Jeremy |title=JK Rowling donates £70k for legal challenge on defining a woman |date=18 February 2024 |url=https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/jk-rowling-donates-70k-for-legal-challenge-on-defining-a-woman-73tkvwq0b |work=[[The Times]] |access-date=5 May 2024|archive-url=https://archive.today/20240217200104/https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/jk-rowling-donates-70k-for-legal-challenge-on-defining-a-woman-73tkvwq0b |archive-date=17 February 2024 |url-status=live |url-access=subscription}}</ref>}} She opposes gender self-recognition{{sfn|Whited|2024|p=7}}<ref name=BacksProtest>{{cite news |title= JK Rowling backs protest over Scottish gender bill |date= 6 October 2022|url= https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-63162533 |publisher= [[BBC News]] |access-date= 5 May 2024}}</ref>{{efn|Rowling wrote in 2020: "The current explosion of trans activism is urging a removal of almost all the robust systems through which candidates for sex reassignment were once required to pass. A man who intends to have no surgery and take no hormones may now secure himself a Gender Recognition Certificate and be a woman in the sight of the law."<ref name=RowlingReasons/>}} and suggests that children and [[cisgender]] women are threatened by trans women and trans-positive messages.{{sfn|Duggan|2021|p=161}} In April 2024, responding to [[Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Act 2021|Scotland's Hate Crime and Public Order Act]], she tweeted a list of trans women, writing that they are "men, every last one of them".<ref name=Brooks2024>{{cite news |last1=Brooks |first1=Libby |title=JK Rowling’s posts on X will not be recorded as non-crime hate incident |url=https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/apr/03/jk-rowling-comments-scotland-non-crime-hate-incident |work=[[The Guardian]] |date=3 April 2024 |access-date= 3 May 2024}}</ref> |
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Well my updates are being reverted, so while this conversation seems to have died down, might as well bring it up in here. |
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Friction over Rowling's gender-critical writings surged in 2019 when she defended [[Maya Forstater]].{{sfn|Whited|2024|pp=6-8}} When Forstater's employment contract with the [[Center for Global Development]] was not renewed after Forstater shared gender-critical views,{{sfn|Pugh|2020|p=7}} Rowling wrote that trans people should live in "peace and security", but questioned women being "force[d] out of their jobs for stating that sex is real".<ref name=Stack2019/>{{efn|A tribunal ruled in 2021 that Forstater's gender-critical views were protected under the 2010 UK [[Equality Act 2010|Equality Act]].<ref name=Faulkner2021>{{cite news |first= Doug |last= Faulkner |url= https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-57426579 |title= Maya Forstater: woman wins tribunal appeal over transgender tweets |publisher= [[BBC News]] |date= 10 June 2021 |access-date= 26 March 2022}}</ref><ref name=Siddique2021>{{cite news |first= Haroon |last= Siddique |date= 10 June 2021 |title= Gender-critical views are a protected belief, appeal tribunal rules|url= https://www.theguardian.com/law/2021/jun/10/gender-critical-views-protected-belief-appeal-tribunal-rules-maya-forstater |work= [[The Guardian]] |access-date= 26 March 2022}}</ref>{{sfn|Pape|2022|p=230}} In July 2022, a new tribunal decision was published (''[[Forstater v Center for Global Development Europe]]'') ruling that Forstater had suffered direct discrimination from her employer.<ref>{{cite news |title=Maya Forstater: Woman discriminated against over trans tweets, tribunal rules|date=6 July 2022 |url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-62061929 |publisher=[[BBC News]] |access-date=6 July 2022}}</ref>}} According to ''Harry Potter'' scholar Lana Whited, in the next six months "Rowling herself fanned the flames as she became increasingly vocal".{{sfn|Whited|2024|p=6}} In June 2020,{{sfn|Whited|2024|p=6}} Rowling mocked the phrase "[[people who menstruate]]",<ref name=Gross2020>{{Cite news|last=Gross|first=Jenny|date=7 June 2020|title=Daniel Radcliffe criticizes J.K. Rowling's anti-transgender tweets|work=[[The New York Times]]|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/07/arts/Jk-Rowling-controversy.html |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200607221400/https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/07/arts/Jk-Rowling-controversy.html |archive-date=7 June 2020 |url-access=subscription |url-status=live|access-date=6 January 2022 }}</ref> and tweeted that [[women's rights]] and "lived reality" would be "erased" if "sex isn't real".{{sfn|Duggan|2021|pp=14–15}}{{sfn|Pugh|2020|p=7}} |
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"Since late 2019, Rowling's transgender-related views have received both criticism and support." is wishy-washy two-sidesing worm words. Like the big orange man said, there were people who "criticized" a woman getting run over at Charlotesville, and others who supported those doing the running over, but that's not how you'd phrase an article when the primary response is critique. "Rowling's outspoken views on transgender rights have received criticism/have become a point of discussion" should be fine, or in the very least you need to actually ''source'' who is doing the critiquing and who is doing the supporting, because I'd argue that's petty critical. [[User:Buh6173|Buh6173]] ([[User talk:Buh6173|talk]]) 17:48, 9 March 2021 (UTC) |
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Rowling's views have impacted her reputation. As her thoughts on the [[legal status of transgender people]] came under scrutiny,{{sfn|Suissa|Sullivan|2021|pp=66–69}} she received insults and threats{{sfn|Suissa|Sullivan|2021|p=69}}{{sfn|Whited|2024|p=9}} and discussion moved beyond the Twitter community.{{sfn|Schwirblat|Freberg|Freberg|2022|p=368}} While her remarks provoked condemnation,{{sfn|Duggan|2021|loc=PDF pp. 14–15 (160–161)}}{{sfn|Schwirblat|Freberg|Freberg|2022|pp=367–369}}{{sfn|Pape|2022|pp=229–230, 238}} sales of ''Harry Potter'' books grew during the [[COVID-19]] lockdown.{{sfn|Pape|2022|p=238}}<ref> {{cite news |first=Mark |last= Sweney |title= Harry Potter books prove UK lockdown hit despite JK Rowling trans rights row |work= [[The Guardian]] |date= 21 July 2020 |url= https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jul/21/jk-rowling-book-sales-unaffected-by-transgender-views-row |access-date= 3 May 2024}}</ref> Criticism came from Harry Potter fansites, LGBT charities, and leading actors of the Wizarding World.{{sfn|Henderson|2022|p=224}}<ref name=Petter2020>{{Cite web|last= Petter|first=Olivia|date=17 September 2020|title=Mermaids writes open letter to JK Rowling following her recent comments on trans people|url=https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/mermaids-jk-rowling-transphobia-transgender-sexual-abuse-domestic-letter-a9565176.html|access-date=26 March 2022|work=[[The Independent]] |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200615235531/https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/mermaids-jk-rowling-transphobia-transgender-sexual-abuse-domestic-letter-a9565176.html |archive-date=15 June 2020}}</ref><ref>{{cite news | url=https://www.newstatesman.com/long-reads/2021/11/the-battle-for-stonewall-the-lgbt-charity-and-the-uks-gender-wars | title=The battle for Stonewall: the LGBT charity and the UK's gender wars | work=[[New Statesman]]|first=Gaby |last=Hinsliff|date=3 November 2021 | access-date=24 November 2021}}</ref> and [[Human Rights Campaign]].<ref name= Milne2020/><ref name=AP7June2020>{{cite news |title= JK Rowling's tweets on transgender people spark outrage |date= 7 June 2020 |url= https://apnews.com/article/entertainment-jk-rowling-us-news-media-7338b2b262090c00f04deafe2e6689c2 |publisher= [[Associated Press]] |access-date= 4 May 2024}}</ref><ref name=Waterson2020>{{Cite news|last= Waterson |first= Jim|title= Children's news website apologises to JK Rowling over trans tweet row|url= https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jul/23/childrens-news-website-apologises-jk-rowling-trans-tweet-day|date= 23 July 2020 |access-date=26 March 2022|work=[[The Guardian]] |quote= Rowling's comments on gender were condemned by LGBT charities and the leading stars of her Harry Potter film franchise.}}</ref><ref name=Lang2020>{{cite magazine |last=Lang |first=Brent |title= Eddie Redmayne criticizes J.K. Rowling's anti-trans tweets |date= 10 June 2020 |url= https://variety.com/2020/film/news/eddie-redmayne-jk-rowling-anti-trans-tweets-harry-potter-fantastic-beasts-1234630226/ |magazine= [[Variety (magazine)|Variety]]|access-date=28 March 2022 |quote= Eddie Redmayne, star of the ''Fantastic Beasts'' franchise, is speaking out against J.K. Rowling's anti-trans tweets, as the controversy surrounding the author and her beliefs continues to swirl.}}</ref> After [[Kerry Kennedy]] expressed "profound disappointment" in her views, Rowling returned the [[Ripple of Hope Award]] given to her by the Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights organisation.<ref name=RFKAward>{{cite news |last=Flood|first=Alison |url= https://amp.theguardian.com/books/2020/aug/28/jk-rowling-robert-f-kennedy-human-rights-award-trans-views|title=JK Rowling returns human rights award to group that denounces her trans views |work=[[The Guardian]]|date=28 August 2020|access-date=28 August 2020}}</ref> |
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::While i personally do prefer your wording, we do not need to provide sources in the lead or names as they are given in the body of the article. <span class="unicode" style="text-shadow:0.1em 0.1em 0.1em #777777">[[User:Bodney|<span style="font-family:Papyrus;color: #660099 ;"> ~ BOD ~ </span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Bodney#top|<small style="font-family:Papyrus;color:green;">TALK</small>]]</sup></span> 22:35, 9 March 2021 (UTC) |
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Criticism and support is neutral, a focus on critique is not. And who is supporting or criticising is not specific either. Lastly, comparing this to Charlottesville displays an agenda driven view. [[User:Gabriella MNT|Gabriella MNT]] ([[User talk:Gabriella MNT|talk]]) 02:08, 10 March 2021 (UTC) |
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:: I mean...what, would you rather me compare it to Planned Parenthood? Would that make you feel any better? You want to avoid sounding vague or wishy-washy. "Trans-rights groups are mad at her, TERFs and right-wing media are happy with her." Want to phrase that in a less biased way then by all means, but "some like her, some don't" doesn't help anybody. It'd honestly be better just to say "Since 2019 Rowling has publicly voiced her opinions on transgender issues" and leave it at that. [[User:Buh6173|Buh6173]] ([[User talk:Buh6173|talk]]) 06:11, 10 March 2021 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 28 February 2021 == |
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Rowling rejects these characterisations and denies being transphobic.<ref name=RowlingReasons>{{cite web|title=J.K. Rowling writes about her reasons for speaking out on sex and gender issues |url=https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/ |publisher=JK Rowling |date=10 June 2020 |access-date=10 June 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200610182056/https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/ |archive-date=10 June 2020 |url-status=live}}</ref><ref name= Dismisses>{{cite news |title= JK Rowling dismisses backlash over trans comments: 'I don't care about my legacy' |date= 22 February 2023|url= https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-64729304 |publisher= [[BBC News]] |access-date= 3 May 2024}}</ref> In an essay posted on her website in June 2020 – which left trans people feeling betrayed{{sfn|Whited|2024|p=7}}{{sfn|Henderson|2022|p=224}} – Rowling said her views on women's rights sprang from survivorship of domestic abuse and [[sexual assault]].{{sfn|Duggan|2021|pp=160–161)}}<ref name=Shirbon2020>{{cite news |last1=Shirbon |first1=Estelle |title=J.K. Rowling reveals past abuse and defends right to speak on trans issues |url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-rowling/j-k-rowling-reveals-past-abuse-and-defends-right-to-speak-on-trans-issues-idUSKBN23H2XI |publisher=[[Reuters]] |date=10 June 2020 |access-date=13 June 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200611200348/https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-rowling/j-k-rowling-reveals-past-abuse-and-defends-right-to-speak-on-trans-issues-idUSKBN23H2XI |archive-date=11 June 2020 |url-status=live}}</ref> While affirming that "the majority of trans-identified people not only pose zero threat to others, but are vulnerable ... Trans people need and deserve protection", she wrote that it would be unsafe to allow "any man who believes or feels he's a woman" into bathrooms or changing rooms.<ref name= Shirbon2020/><ref>{{cite news |last1=Gonzalez |first1=Sandra |title=J.K. Rowling explains her gender identity views in essay amid backlash |url=https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/10/entertainment/jk-rowling/index.html |access-date=16 September 2023 |publisher=[[CNN]] |date=10 June 2020}}</ref><ref>{{cite news |last1=Garrand |first1=Danielle |title=J.K. Rowling defends herself after accusations of making 'anti-trans' comments on Twitter |url=https://www.cbsnews.com/news/j-k-rowling-defends-anti-trans-comments-twitter/ |access-date=16 September 2023 |publisher=[[CBS News]] |date=11 June 2020}}</ref> Whited asserted in 2024 that Rowling's sometimes "flippant" and "simplistic understanding of gender identity" had permanently changed her "relationship not only with fans, readers, and scholars ... but also with her works themselves".{{sfn|Whited|2024|pp=6, 8–9}} |
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{{ |
|| {{Main|Political views of J. K. Rowling#Transgender rights}} |
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Rowling's responses to proposed changes to UK gender recognition laws,<ref name= Milne2020>{{cite web|first1= Amber |last1=Milne|first2 = Rachel| last2 =Savage | url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-lgbt-rowling-explainer-trfn-idUSKBN23I3AI | title=Explainer: J. K. Rowling and trans women in single-sex spaces: what's the furore? | publisher=[[Reuters]] | date=11 June 2020 | access-date=6 April 2021 }}</ref><ref name= Brooks2020>{{Cite news|last=Brooks|first=Libby|date=11 June 2020|title=Why is JK Rowling speaking out now on sex and gender debate? |url= http://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/jun/11/why-is-jk-rowling-speaking-out-now-on-sex-and-gender-debate|access-date=14 January 2022 |work= [[The Guardian]] }}</ref>{{efn|The UK laws and proposed changes are the [[Gender Recognition Act 2004]], the [[Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill]] and the related [[Equality Act 2010]].{{sfn|Pedersen|2022|loc=Abstract}}{{sfn|Suissa|Sullivan|2021|pp=66–69}}{{sfn|Duggan|2021|loc=PDF pp. 14–15 (160–161)}} }} and her views on [[sexual identity|sex]] and [[gender identity|gender]], have provoked controversy.{{sfn|Duggan|2021|loc=PDF pp. 14–15 (160–161)}} Her statements have divided [[Feminist views on transgender topics|feminists]];<ref name=Kottasova2019>{{cite news |first1= Ivana |last1= Kottasová |first2= Scottie | last2= Andrew|title= J.K. Rowling's 'transphobia' tweet row spotlights a fight between equality campaigners and radical feminists |publisher= [[CNN]] |date= 20 December 2019 |access-date= 29 March 2022 | url= https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/20/uk/jk-rowling-transgender-explainer-intl-gbr/index.html}}</ref><ref name=BBC2020JKRResponds>{{cite news |url= https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-53002557 |publisher= [[BBC News]] |title= JK Rowling responds to trans tweets criticism |date= 11 June 2020 |access-date= 29 March 2022}}</ref><ref>{{cite news | url=https://www.newstatesman.com/international/2020/09/judith-butler-culture-wars-jk-rowling-and-living-anti-intellectual-times | title=Judith Butler on the culture wars, JK Rowling and living in 'anti-intellectual times'|first=Alona |last=Ferber | work=[[New Statesman]] | date=22 September 2020 | access-date=26 March 2021}}</ref> fuelled<!-- This article uses British spelling --> debates on [[freedom of speech]],{{sfn|Pape|2022|pp=229–230}}<ref>{{cite web|title=BBC nominates J.K.Rowling's controversial essay of trans rights for award|url=https://www.dw.com/en/bbc-nominates-jk-rowlings-controversial-essay-on-trans-rights-for-award/a-56014673|website=[[DW News]]|date=22 December 2020|access-date=22 December 2020}}</ref> [[academic freedom]]{{sfn|Suissa|Sullivan|2021|pp=66–69}} and [[cancel culture]];{{sfn|Schwirblat|Freberg|Freberg|2022|pp=367–369}} and prompted declarations of [[Transgender rights movement|support for transgender people]] from the literary,<ref>UK, US, Canada, Ireland: {{cite news |last= Flood |first= Alison |date=9 October 2020|title= Stephen King, Margaret Atwood and Roxane Gay champion trans rights in open letter|url= https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/oct/09/stephen-king-margaret-atwood-roxane-gay-champion-trans-rights-open-letter-jk-rowling |work= [[The Guardian]] |access-date= 2 April 2022}}</ref> arts<ref>{{cite magazine|last= Rowley |first= Glenn |title= Artists fire back at J.K. Rowling's anti-trans remarks, share messages in support of the community|url= https://www.billboard.com/culture/pride/artists-fire-back-jk-rowling-anti-trans-remarks-9400386/|magazine= [[Billboard (magazine)|Billboard]]|date= 11 June 2020 |access-date= 7 April 2022}}</ref> and culture sectors.<ref>Culture sector: |
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Change "transgender-related issues" in lede to "transphobic remarks". The former is vague, while the latter is much clearer and in-line with how the reliable sources in the trans section of the body describe her views. [[User:Nmi628|Nmi628]] ([[User talk:Nmi628|talk]]) 05:09, 28 February 2021 (UTC) |
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* [[Universal Destinations & Experiences]], [[Warner Bros.]] and [[Scholastic Corporation]]: {{cite news |last1= Siegel |first1= Tatiana |last2= Abramovitch |first2= Seth |date= 10 June 2020 |title= Universal Parks responds to J.K. Rowling tweets: 'Our core values include diversity, inclusion and respect' |work= [[The Hollywood Reporter]] |url= https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/lifestyle/lifestyle-news/universal-parks-responds-jk-rowling-tweets-core-values-include-diversity-inclusion-respect-1297845/ |access-date= 3 April 2022|ref=none}} |
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:{{not done}} Per [[WP:LABEL]], and, yes, per [[WP:NPOV]], and especially per the consensus reached above. Sources actually vary quite a bit in how they describe the matter and few say "transphobic" in their own voice. Editors can't describe any topic in ways other than the [[WP:Due weight]] of sources. Also, the lead says "transgender-related views", not "issues". Keep in mind that an overly stridently written article turns off the people one may want to convince; this is partly why NPOV is important. <span style="font-family:Palatino">[[User:Crossroads|'''Crossroads''']]</span> <sup>[[User talk:Crossroads|-talk-]]</sup> 05:39, 28 February 2021 (UTC) |
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* [[Warner Bros. Interactive Entertainment]] president: {{cite news |last= Skrebels |first= Joe |title= WB Interactive president responds to ongoing debate over supporting JK Rowling |date=1 October 2020 |url= https://www.ign.com/articles/wb-interactive-president-responds-to-ongoing-debate-over-supporting-jk-rowling |publisher= [[IGN]] |access-date= 2 April 2022|ref=none}}</ref> |
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When [[Maya Forstater]]'s employment contract with the London branch of the [[Center for Global Development]] was not renewed after she tweeted [[Feminist views on transgender topics#Gender-critical feminism and trans-exclusionary radical feminism|gender-critical views]],{{sfn|Pugh|2020|p=7}}<ref name=Stack2019>{{Cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/19/world/europe/jk-rowling-maya-forstater-transgender.html|title=J.K. Rowling criticized after tweeting support for anti-transgender researcher|last=Stack|first=Liam|date=19 December 2019|work=[[The New York Times]]|access-date=13 June 2020| url-access=registration|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200613012737/https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/19/world/europe/jk-rowling-maya-forstater-transgender.html|archive-date=13 June 2020|url-status=live}}</ref> Rowling responded in December 2019 with a tweet that [[transgender]] people should live their lives as they pleased in "peace and security", but questioned women being "force[d] out of their jobs for stating that sex is real".<ref name=Stack2019/>{{efn|A tribunal ruled in 2021 that Forstater's gender-critical views were protected under the 2010 UK [[Equality Act 2010|Equality Act]].<ref name=Faulkner2021>{{cite news |first= Doug |last= Faulkner |url= https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-57426579 |title= Maya Forstater: woman wins tribunal appeal over transgender tweets |publisher= [[BBC News]] |date= 10 June 2021 |access-date= 26 March 2022}}</ref><ref name=Siddique2021>{{cite news |first= Haroon |last= Siddique |date= 10 June 2021 |title= Gender-critical views are a protected belief, appeal tribunal rules|url= https://www.theguardian.com/law/2021/jun/10/gender-critical-views-protected-belief-appeal-tribunal-rules-maya-forstater |work= [[The Guardian]] |access-date= 26 March 2022}}</ref> In July 2022, a new tribunal decision was published (''[[Forstater v Center for Global Development Europe]]'') ruling that Forstater had suffered direct discrimination from her employer.<ref>{{cite news |title=Maya Forstater: Woman discriminated against over trans tweets, tribunal rules|date=6 July 2022 |url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-62061929 |publisher=[[BBC News]] |access-date=6 July 2022}}</ref>}} In another controversial tweet in June 2020,<ref name=Petter2020>{{Cite web|last= Petter|first=Olivia|date=17 September 2020|title=Mermaids writes open letter to JK Rowling following her recent comments on trans people|url=https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/mermaids-jk-rowling-transphobia-transgender-sexual-abuse-domestic-letter-a9565176.html|access-date=26 March 2022|work=[[The Independent]] |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200615235531/https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/mermaids-jk-rowling-transphobia-transgender-sexual-abuse-domestic-letter-a9565176.html |archive-date=15 June 2020}}</ref> Rowling mocked an article for using the phrase "[[people who menstruate]]",<ref name=Gross2020>{{Cite news|last=Gross|first=Jenny|date=7 June 2020|title=Daniel Radcliffe criticizes J.K. Rowling's anti-transgender tweets|work=[[The New York Times]]|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/07/arts/Jk-Rowling-controversy.html |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200607221400/https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/07/arts/Jk-Rowling-controversy.html |archive-date=7 June 2020 |url-access=subscription |url-status=live|access-date=6 January 2022 }}</ref> and tweeted that [[women's rights]] and "lived reality" would be "erased" if "sex isn't real".{{sfn|Duggan|2021|loc=PDF pp. 14–15}}<ref>{{cite magazine|url=https://variety.com/2020/film/news/jk-rowling-transphobic-tweets-controversy-1234627081/|title=J.K. Rowling gets backlash over anti-trans tweets|last=Moreau|first=Jordan|magazine=[[Variety (magazine)|Variety]]|date=6 June 2020|access-date=13 June 2020|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200607005447/https://variety.com/2020/film/news/jk-rowling-transphobic-tweets-controversy-1234627081/|archive-date=7 June 2020|url-status=live}}</ref> |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 28 February 2021 (2) == |
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[[LGBT]] charities and leading actors of the [[Wizarding World]] franchise condemned Rowling's comments;<ref name=Waterson2020>{{Cite news|last= Waterson |first= Jim|title= Children's news website apologises to JK Rowling over trans tweet row|url= https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jul/23/childrens-news-website-apologises-jk-rowling-trans-tweet-day|date= 23 July 2020 |access-date=26 March 2022|work=[[The Guardian]] |quote= Rowling's comments on gender were condemned by LGBT charities and the leading stars of her Harry Potter film franchise.}}</ref><ref name=Lang2020>{{cite magazine |last=Lang |first=Brent |title= Eddie Redmayne criticizes J.K. Rowling's anti-trans tweets |date= 10 June 2020 |url= https://variety.com/2020/film/news/eddie-redmayne-jk-rowling-anti-trans-tweets-harry-potter-fantastic-beasts-1234630226/ |magazine= [[Variety (magazine)|Variety]]|access-date=28 March 2022 |quote= Eddie Redmayne, star of the ''Fantastic Beasts'' franchise, is speaking out against J.K. Rowling's anti-trans tweets, as the controversy surrounding the author and her beliefs continues to swirl.}}</ref>{{efn| [[Daniel Radcliffe]], [[Emma Watson]], [[Rupert Grint]],<ref name= Hibberd2021/> [[Eddie Redmayne]]<ref name=Lang2020/> and others expressed support for the transgender community in reaction to Rowling's comments;<ref>{{cite magazine |first= Maureen |last= Lenker|title= Every Harry Potter actor who's spoken out against J.K. Rowling's controversial trans comments |date= 10 June 2020 |access-date= 1 April 2022 |magazine= [[Entertainment Weekly]]|url=https://ew.com/movies/every-harry-potter-actor-whos-spoken-out-against-j-k-rowlings-controversial-transgender-comments/ }}</ref><ref>{{cite news |first= Maggie |last= Baska|title= Stephen Fry defends 'friendship' with JK Rowling: 'I'm sorry that people are upset' |date= 20 May 2021 |url= https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2021/05/20/stephen-fry-jk-rowling-friend-harry-potter-jordan-b-peterson-podcast-trans/ |publisher= [[PinkNews]] |access-date= 29 March 2022}}</ref> [[Helena Bonham Carter]],<ref name=Evans2022> {{cite news |first= Greg |last= Evans |url= https://deadline.com/2022/11/helena-bonham-carter-johnny-depp-j-k-rowling-1235182523/ |title= Helena Bonham Carter says Johnny Depp 'completely vindicated' in defamation trial, and J.K. Rowling 'hounded' for transgender stance |work= [[Deadline Hollywood]] |access-date= 18 December 2022}}</ref> [[Robbie Coltrane]],<ref>{{cite news |last= Yasharoff |first= Hannah |title= How the 'Harry Potter' reunion addresses author J.K. Rowling's anti-trans controversy |date= 30 December 2021|url= https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/movies/2021/12/30/harry-potter-return-hogwarts-20th-reunion-emma-watson-jk-rowling-controversy/9042955002/ |work= [[USA Today]] |access-date= 2 April 2022}}</ref> and [[Ralph Fiennes]] supported Rowling.<ref name= Hibberd2021>{{cite news |first= James |last= Hibberd |url= https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/ralph-fiennes-defends-j-k-rowling-amid-trans-controversy-says-backlash-is-disturbing-4151944/ |title= Ralph Fiennes defends J.K. rowling amid trans controversy, says backlash is 'disturbing' |date= 17 March 2021 |access-date=26 March 2022 |work= [[The Hollywood Reporter]]}}</ref>}} [[GLAAD]] called them "cruel" and "inaccurate".<ref name= Yasharoff2020> {{cite news |last= Yasharoff |first=Hannah|url= https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/celebrities/2020/06/07/j-k-rowling-harry-potter-author-slammed-transphobic-comments/3169833001/ |title= J.K. Rowling reveals she's a sexual assault survivor; Emma Watson reacts to trans comments |work= [[USA Today]] |date= 10 June 2020 |access-date= 27 March 2022}}</ref> Rowling responded with an essay on her website<ref name=RowlingReasons>{{cite web|title=J.K. Rowling writes about her reasons for speaking out on sex and gender issues |url=https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/ |publisher=JK Rowling |date=10 June 2020 |access-date=10 June 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200610182056/https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/ |archive-date=10 June 2020 |url-status=live}}</ref> in which she revealed that her views on women's rights were informed by her experience as a survivor of domestic abuse and [[sexual assault]].<ref name=Shirbon2020>{{cite news |last1=Shirbon |first1=Estelle |title=J.K. Rowling reveals past abuse and defends right to speak on trans issues |url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-rowling/j-k-rowling-reveals-past-abuse-and-defends-right-to-speak-on-trans-issues-idUSKBN23H2XI |publisher=[[Reuters]] |date=10 June 2020 |access-date=13 June 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200611200348/https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-rowling/j-k-rowling-reveals-past-abuse-and-defends-right-to-speak-on-trans-issues-idUSKBN23H2XI |archive-date=11 June 2020 |url-status=live}}</ref> While affirming that "the majority of trans-identified people not only pose zero threat to others, but are vulnerable ... Trans people need and deserve protection", she believed that it would be unsafe to allow "any man who believes or feels he's a woman" into bathrooms or changing rooms.<ref name= Shirbon2020/><ref>{{cite news |last1=Gonzalez |first1=Sandra |title=J.K. Rowling explains her gender identity views in essay amid backlash |url=https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/10/entertainment/jk-rowling/index.html |access-date=16 September 2023 |work=[[CNN]] |date=10 June 2020}}</ref><ref>{{cite news |last1=Garrand |first1=Danielle |title= J.K. Rowling defends herself after accusations of making "anti-trans" comments on Twitter |url=https://www.cbsnews.com/news/j-k-rowling-defends-anti-trans-comments-twitter/ |access-date=16 September 2023 |work=[[CBS News]] |date=11 June 2020}}</ref> Writing of her own experiences with [[sexism]] and [[misogyny]],<ref>{{cite news |first= Sian |last= Cain |date= 11 June 2020 |title= JK Rowling reveals she is survivor of domestic abuse and sexual assault |url= https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/jun/10/jk-rowling-says-survivor-of-domestic-abuse-sexual-assault |work= [[The Guardian]] |access-date= 29 March 2022}}</ref> she wondered if the "allure of escaping womanhood" would have led her to [[Gender transitioning|transition]] if she had been born later, and said that trans activism was "seeking to erode 'woman' as a political and biological class".<ref name=DAlessandro2020>{{cite news |last=D'Alessandro |first=Anthony |title=J.K. Rowling defends trans statements in lengthy essay, reveals she's a sexual assault survivor & says 'trans people need and deserve protection' |url=https://deadline.com/2020/06/j-k-rowling-defends-trans-statements-essay-1202955524/ |access-date=5 January 2022 |work=[[Deadline Hollywood]] |date=10 June 2020}}</ref> |
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{{edit semi-protected|J. K. Rowling|answered=yes}} |
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Put {{NPOV}} at the top of the article. |
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Rowling's continual statements – beginning in 2017{{sfn|Duggan|2021|loc=PDF pp. 14–15 (160–161)}}<ref name= Jacobs2023>{{cite news |last= Jacobs |first= Julia |title= Hogwarts legacy can't cast aside debate over J. K. Rowling |url= https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/09/arts/hogwarts-legacy-jk-rowling.html |date= 9 February 2023 |work = [[The New York Times]] |access-date= 14 July 2023}}</ref><ref name= Spangler2023>{{cite news |last= Spangler|first= Todd |title= J.K. Rowling addresses backlash to her anti-trans comments in new podcast: 'I never set out to upset anyone' |url= https://variety.com/2023/digital/news/jk-rowling-anti-trans-comments-podcast-witch-trials-1235522301/ |date= 14 February 2023|work= [[Variety (magazine)|Variety]]|access-date= 14 July 2023}}</ref> – have been called transphobic by critics<ref name= Breznican2023>{{cite news |last= Breznican |first= Anthony |title= J.K. Rowling will oversee a new streaming ''Harry Potter'' series |url= https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2023/04/jk-rowling-harry-potter-series|date= 12 April 2023 |work= [[Vanity Fair (magazine)|Vanity Fair]] |access-date= 14 July 2023}}</ref><ref name=Rosenblatt2020>{{Cite web|last = Rosenblatt| first =Kalhan |title=J.K. Rowling doubles down in what some critics call a 'transphobic manifesto' |url= https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/j-k-rowling-doubles-down-what-some-critics-call-transphobic-n1229351|date= 10 June 2020 |access-date=19 January 2022|publisher=[[NBC News]] }}</ref> and she has been referred to as a [[TERF (acronym)|TERF]].<ref name= Rosenblatt2020/>{{sfn|Steinfeld|2020|pp=34–35}}{{sfn|Schwirblat|Freberg|Freberg|2022|pp=367–368}} She rejects these characterisations and the notion that she holds animosity towards transgender people, saying that her viewpoint has been misunderstood.<ref name=RowlingReasons/><ref name= Breznican2023/><ref name= Spangler2023/> Criticism of Rowling's views has come from the ''Harry Potter'' fansites [[MuggleNet]] and [[The Leaky Cauldron (website)|The Leaky Cauldron]];<ref name=FanSites>{{cite news|url=https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/03/harry-potter-fan-sites-distance-themselves-from-jk-rowling-over-transgender-rights|title=Harry Potter fan sites distance themselves from JK Rowling over transgender rights|publisher=[[Reuters]]|work=[[The Guardian]]|date=3 July 2020|access-date=3 July 2020|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200703011204/https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/03/harry-potter-fan-sites-distance-themselves-from-jk-rowling-over-transgender-rights|archive-date=3 July 2020|url-status=live}}</ref> and the charities [[Mermaids (charity)|Mermaids]],<ref name=Petter2020/> [[Stonewall (charity)|Stonewall]],<ref>{{cite news | url=https://www.newstatesman.com/long-reads/2021/11/the-battle-for-stonewall-the-lgbt-charity-and-the-uks-gender-wars | title=The battle for Stonewall: the LGBT charity and the UK's gender wars | work=[[New Statesman]]|first=Gaby |last=Hinsliff|date=3 November 2021 | access-date=24 November 2021}}</ref> and [[Human Rights Campaign]].<ref>{{cite news |first= Elise |last= Brisco |title=Dave Chappelle says he's 'Team TERF,' defends J.K. Rowling in new Netflix comedy special|url= https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/tv/2021/10/05/dave-chappelle-terf-defends-j-k-rowling-netflix-special/6002017001/ |work= [[USA Today]] |date= 8 October 2021|access-date= 29 March 2022}}</ref> After [[Kerry Kennedy]] expressed "profound disappointment" in her views, Rowling returned the [[Ripple of Hope Award]] given to her by the Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights organisation.<ref name=RFKAward>{{cite news |last=Flood|first=Alison |url= https://amp.theguardian.com/books/2020/aug/28/jk-rowling-robert-f-kennedy-human-rights-award-trans-views|title=JK Rowling returns human rights award to group that denounces her trans views |work=[[The Guardian]]|date=28 August 2020|access-date=28 August 2020}}</ref> |
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Neutrality is very obviously disputed. [[User:Crossroads]] very obviously isn't impartial, yet answers edit requests. Joanne K Rowling after "TERF wars" isn't just ''a'' [[TERF]], she is ''the most famous TERF'' at the moment, weighing in on every TERF debate in defence of blatant TERF hate-speech. |
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As Rowling's views on the [[legal status of transgender people]] came under scrutiny,{{sfn|Suissa|Sullivan|2021|pp=66–69}} she received insults and death threats{{sfn|Suissa|Sullivan|2021|p=69}}{{sfn|Qiao|2022|p=1323}} and discussion moved beyond the Twitter community.{{sfn|Schwirblat|Freberg|Freberg|2022|p=368}} Some performers and feminists have supported her.{{sfn|Schwirblat|Freberg|Freberg|2022|p=368}}<ref> Supporting Rowling: |
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This has been pointed out by multiple people in the talk above, yet still [[User:Crossroads]] talks about a "consensus". If there is one, it's that Rowling's latest works and publications are textbook TERF and, like eg [[Troubled Blood]], outright [[transphobia|transphobic]] |
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* [[Ayaan Hirsi Ali]]: {{cite news |first=Katie |last=Law |date= 15 October 2020|title= JK Rowling and the bitter battle of the book world |url=https://www.standard.co.uk/culture/books/trans-battle-book-world-jk-rowling-a4571221.html |work= [[Evening Standard]] |access-date=27 March 2022|ref=none}} |
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* [[Allison Bailey]]: {{cite news |url= https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/maya-forstater-transgender-twitter-jk-rowling-b1838151.html |title= Maya Forstater: who is woman in employment tribunal over transgender comments? |first= Sam |last= Hancock |date= 27 April 2021 |work= [[The Independent]] |access-date= 27 March 2022|archive-url= https://web.archive.org/web/20210427131430/https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/maya-forstater-transgender-twitter-jk-rowling-b1838151.html |archive-date= 27 April 2021 |quote= criminal defence barrister Allison Bailey – known for launching legal action against LGBT+ rights charity Stonewall over its attempt to have her investigated for setting up the anti-trans rights group LGB Alliance – has also been a vocal supporter of Ms Forstater.|ref=none}} |
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* [[Julie Bindel]]: {{cite news |last1=Thorpe |first1=Vanessa |title=JK Rowling: from magic to the heart of a Twitter storm |url=https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/jun/14/jk-rowling-from-magic-to-the-heart-of-a-twitter-storm |work=[[The Guardian]] |date=14 June 2020 |quote=Arrayed on Rowling's side are some of the veteran voices of feminism, including the radical Julie Bindel, who spoke out in support this weekend |access-date=6 July 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200704200412/https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/jun/14/jk-rowling-from-magic-to-the-heart-of-a-twitter-storm |archive-date=4 July 2020 |url-status=live|ref=none}} |
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* [[Dave Chappelle]]: {{Cite news |first= Maya |last=Yang|date=7 October 2021|title='I'm team Terf': Dave Chappelle under fire over pro-JK Rowling trans stance|url=https://www.theguardian.com/stage/2021/oct/07/dave-chappelle-transgender-netflix-special-backlash|access-date=27 March 2022|work=[[The Guardian]]|ref=none}} |
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* [[Dana International]]: {{cite news |last1=Shirbon |first1=Estelle |title=J.K. Rowling reveals past abuse and defends right to speak on trans issues |url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-rowling/j-k-rowling-reveals-past-abuse-and-defends-right-to-speak-on-trans-issues-idUSKBN23H2XI |publisher=[[Reuters]] |date=10 June 2020 |access-date=13 June 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200611200348/https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-rowling/j-k-rowling-reveals-past-abuse-and-defends-right-to-speak-on-trans-issues-idUSKBN23H2XI |archive-date=11 June 2020 |url-status=live|ref=none}} |
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* [[Eddie Izzard]]: {{cite news |title='I don't think JK Rowling is transphobic,' says gender-fluid comedian Eddie Izzard |url=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/comedy/what-to-see/dont-think-jk-rowling-transphobic-says-gender-fluid-comedian/ |archive-url=https://ghostarchive.org/archive/20220110/https://www.telegraph.co.uk/comedy/what-to-see/dont-think-jk-rowling-transphobic-says-gender-fluid-comedian/ |archive-date=10 January 2022 |url-access=subscription |url-status=live |access-date=27 November 2021 |work=[[The Daily Telegraph]]|date=1 January 2021|ref=none}}{{cbignore}} |
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* [[Kathleen Stock]], [[Alison Moyet]]: {{cite news |url= https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-53002557 |publisher= [[BBC News]] |title= JK Rowling responds to trans tweets criticism |date= 11 June 2020 |access-date= 29 March 2022}}</ref> Figures from the arts world criticised "hate speech directed against her".<ref name= Flockhart2020>{{cite news |last= Flockhart |first= Gary |date= 28 September 2020 |access-date= 2 April 2022 |work = [[The Scotsman]] |title= JK Rowling receives support from Ian McEwan and Frances Barber amid 'transphobia' row|url= https://www.scotsman.com/news/people/jk-rowling-receives-support-from-ian-mcewan-and-frances-barber-amid-transphobia-row-2986268|ref=none}}</ref> |
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|} |
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For as long as no neutral Admin watches over this site, Neutrality isn't given, and not having a NPOV Template above a clearly unbalanced article, taking a position against the obvious majority of the references cited inside, hurts the credibility of Wikipedia as a whole. |
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==== Sources ==== |
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If you look at article of other right-wing publicists (eg [[Carl Benjamin]] or [[Milo Yiannopoulos]] - or even the author [[Orson Scott Card]]), labels like "white supremacist", "alt-right" or "homophobia" are not by a long shot as well-documented as Rowling's [[Trans-exclusionary radical feminism]] opinions and [[transphobia]] - even ''in her own words!'' |
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{{cot|Sources}} |
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{{reflist-talk}} |
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{{notelist-talk}} |
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* {{Cite journal|last=Duggan|first=Jennifer|date=28 March 2021|title=Transformative readings: Harry Potter fan fiction, trans/queer reader response, and J. K. Rowling|journal=[[Children's Literature in Education]]|volume=53 |issue=2 |pages=147–168 |doi=10.1007/s10583-021-09446-9|pmid=35645426 |pmc=9132366 |s2cid=233661189 }} |
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*{{cite book |editor-last=Konchar Farr |editor-first=Cecilia |title=Open at the Close: Literary Essays on Harry Potter |publisher=[[University Press of Mississippi]] |year=2022 |isbn=978-1-4968-3931-2|ref = {{harvid|Konchar Farr|2022}} }} |
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**{{harvc|last=Henderson |first=Tolonda |date=2022 |in=Konchar Farr |c= A Coda: She-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named |url= https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctv2kqx0kz.19 |doi= 10.2307/j.ctv2kqx0kz.19|year=2022|nb=yes}} |
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* {{cite journal |first= Madeleine |last= Pape |author-link= Madeleine Pape |title= Feminism, trans justice, and speech rights: a comparative perspective |journal= [[Law and Contemporary Problems]] |pages= 215–240 |url= https://scholarship.law.duke.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=5037&context=lcp |date= 2022 |volume= 85 |issue= 1 |access-date= 29 March 2022 }} |
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* {{cite journal |first= Sarah |last= Pedersen |title= 'They've got an absolute army of women behind them': the formation of a women's cooperative constellation in contemporary Scotland |journal= [[Scottish Affairs]] |date= 2022 |volume= 31 |issue= 1 |pages= 1–20 |doi= 10.3366/scot.2022.0394 |s2cid= 246762983 |url= https://rgu-repository.worktribe.com/output/1375349 }} |
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* {{Cite book|last=Pugh|first=Tison|author-link=Tison Pugh|title=Harry Potter and Beyond: On J. K. Rowling's Fantasies and Other Fictions|publisher=[[University of South Carolina Press]]|year=2020|isbn=978-1-64336-088-1|oclc=1142046769|doi=10.2307/j.ctvs09qwv|s2cid=225791872}} |
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* {{cite book |first1=Tatiana |last1=Schwirblat|first2=Karen |last2=Freberg |first3=Laura |last3=Freberg |year=2022 |chapter= Chapter 21: Cancel culture: a career vulture amongst influencers on social media |editor1-last=Lipschultz |editor1-first= Jeremy Harris |editor2-last=Freberg |editor2-first= Karen |editor3-last=Luttrell |editor3-first= Regina|title= The Emerald Handbook of Computer-Mediated Communication and Social Media |publisher= [[Emerald Group Publishing|Emerald Publishing Limited]] |doi=10.1108/978-1-80071-597-420221021|isbn=978-1800715981}} |
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* {{cite journal |last1=Steinfeld |first1=Jemimah|title= Not my turf: Helen Lewis argues that vitriol around the trans debate means only extreme voices are being heard |journal= [[Index on Censorship]] |year=2020 |volume=49 |issue= 1 |pages=34–35 |doi= 10.1177/0306422020917609 |s2cid=216495541 |doi-access=free }} |
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* {{cite journal |first1= Judith |last1= Suissa |first2= Alice |last2= Sullivan |title= The gender wars, academic freedom and education |journal= [[Journal of Philosophy of Education]] |volume= 55 |issue= 1 |date= February 2021 |pages= 55–82 |doi= 10.1111/1467-9752.12549 |s2cid= 233646159 |doi-access= free |url= https://discovery.ucl.ac.uk/10125585/1/Suissa_1467-9752.12549.pdf }} |
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*{{Cite book|editor-last=Whited|editor-first=Lana A.|title=The Ivory Tower, Harry Potter, and Beyond|publisher=[[University of Missouri Press]]|year=2024|isbn=978-0-8262-2300-5 |ref= {{harvid|Whited (ed)|2024}} }} |
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** {{harvc|last= Borah |first= Rebecca Sutherland |c= 'Accio Jo!' Woke Wizards and Generational Potter Fandom |in= Whited (ed) |year=2024 |nb=yes}} |
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** {{harvc|last=Whited|first=Lana A.|c = Introduction |in= Whited (ed) |year=2024 |nb=yes}} |
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{{cob}} |
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==== Discussion of Draft 6.1 ==== |
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Should a biased admin/mod reject this request, I ask other people to weigh in and give an opinion poll who is in favour of this minimal common denominator and who is opposed. (BTW, normally, if [[WP:NPOV]] is reasoned, there normally is no discussion whether a biased article is tagged, but when it is reworked when the tag may be deleted.) |
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Thanks for getting the ball rolling on this, {{u|S Marshall}}, and I hope Victoria feels better soon. I am traveling today and won't be able to peek in 'til tomorrow. Bst, [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 16:49, 10 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:Agreed, thanks. As a newcomer to this discussion, I have to ask why are we just relying on one critic, Whited, whose opinion seems at ace level very pro-trans. What gives Whited the right to be here? Would it be useful to insert another critic to level the bias, or remove reference to Whited together? |
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--[[Special:Contributions/2003:C8:471C:7800:F0D5:F10D:92A6:CB05|2003:C8:471C:7800:F0D5:F10D:92A6:CB05]] ([[User talk:2003:C8:471C:7800:F0D5:F10D:92A6:CB05|talk]]) 16:48, 28 February 2021 (UTC) [[Special:Contributions/2003:C8:471C:7800:F0D5:F10D:92A6:CB05|2003:C8:471C:7800:F0D5:F10D:92A6:CB05]] ([[User talk:2003:C8:471C:7800:F0D5:F10D:92A6:CB05|talk]]) 16:48, 28 February 2021 (UTC) |
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:Also, in terms on labelling JKR, if a label is needed, gender-critical is indeed appropriate and applicable. [[User:Scientelensia|Scientelensia]] ([[User talk:Scientelensia|talk]]) 18:46, 10 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:[[File:Red information icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done for now:''' please establish a [[Wikipedia:Consensus|consensus]] for this alteration '''[[Wikipedia:Edit requests|before]]''' using the {{tlx|edit semi-protected}} template.<!-- Template:ESp --> If you think there are neutrality issues, then the better option (instead of tagging the article) is to attempt to fix them by collaborating with other editors, not accusing fellow editors of bias. [[User:RandomCanadian|RandomCanadian]] ([[User talk:RandomCanadian|talk]] / [[Special:Contributions/RandomCanadian|contribs]]) 02:43, 1 March 2021 (UTC) |
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::If you can find a proper Rowling scholar who ''doesn't'' think Rowling's a trans-exclusionary feminist, go ahead and cite them.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 20:23, 10 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::Crossroads is not an [[WP:ADMIN|admin]] or "moderator" and admins do not have authority over content; their only privileges as admins are to enforce existing community consensus or make uncontroversial actions like blocking trolls. These edit requests are answered by any volunteer who wants to. This request has rightly been declined. Your personal opinion is of no use to us without presenting us with high-quality secondary sources. — [[User:Bilorv|Bilorv]] ('''[[User talk:Bilorv|<span style="color:purple">talk</span>]]''') 00:03, 2 March 2021 (UTC) |
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:::It's probably also worth pointing out that due to the above request the OP has shown that they're not neutral in this discussion either, with a very obvious bias against Rowling for this particular topic. [[User:Chaheel Riens|Chaheel Riens]] ([[User talk:Chaheel Riens|talk]]) 08:11, 2 March 2021 (UTC) |
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It's getting pretty good, actually; focused mostly on what she actually said rather than endless tedious recounting of what other people think of it. As to the discussions about whether to say "gender-critical", that seems to be a reasonable label to use, one that is frequently used as a self-label by people expressing views of a similar nature to JKR's, not a pejorative name like "TERF" or "transphobe". The point of disagreement is in the apparent lack of her actually self-labeling this way; it seems JKR hasn't applied any sort of ideological or political label to herself, preferring her views to speak for themselves. This makes it harder to put a label on her, but if one is to be applied, this one seems fairly reasonable. [[User:Dtobias|*Dan T.*]] ([[User talk:Dtobias|talk]]) 18:33, 10 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::::Respectfully I do not think we need to come down like a ton of bricks on the IP just because their request might indicate an opinion, if we are honest most editors have a biases and opinions on things. All we should ask for is clear evidence and neutrality in the article. <span class="unicode" style="text-shadow:0.1em 0.1em 0.1em #777777">[[User:Bodney|<span style="font-family:Papyrus;color: #660099 ;"> ~ BOD ~ </span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Bodney#top|<small style="font-family:Papyrus;color:green;">TALK</small>]]</sup></span> 13:00, 2 March 2021 (UTC) |
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:::::Aditionally, the IP has a point. J.K. Rowling's behaviour and stance on policy at this point are functionally indistinguishable from trans exclusionary feminism. After all, she is indeed a feminist, and she also seeks to take away certain rights from trans people. (e.g. the right to go to the appropriate bathroom, the right to appropriate treatment.) In other words, she seeks equality for women as long as they don't happen to be trans. In other words, her feminism is indeed trans exclusionary, as opposed to normal feminism, which is pro trans rights and seeks for trans women to have easier and more varied access to gender affirming treatment options, something J.K. Rowling has openly stated she opposes. It is not strange for an IP to point this out. That being said, I am opposed to adding the template, as it seems more productive to make constructive edits to the article and to make clear arguments for why those changes should be made. --[[User:Licks-rocks|Licks-rocks]] ([[User talk:Licks-rocks|talk]]) 15:24, 16 March 2021 (UTC) |
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:::: I wasn't going to comment on this, but since the discussion has received a bit of traction, I will note the following: |
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:::: * I don't think the template itself is helpful, and prefer not to see it inserted; |
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:::: * There was an RfC in 2019 that found that the abbreviation "TERF" should not generally be used in article space without strict attribution; |
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:::: * My own observation is that using the abbreviation "TERF" ''outside'' of article space generates more heat than light in pretty much all instances; |
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:::: * There is no general agreement on WP whether the term "trans-exclusionary", or related terms (like "anti-transgender"), strictly require in-text attribution. |
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:::: On this last point, when I say "there is no general agreement" what I mean is "various editors insist there is policy-based consensus one way or the other, but cannot agree what this supposed consensus is" - it is not a case where editors have found it possible to ''agree'' that there is no general agreement, for whatever reason. |
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:::: As far as the broader question, of whether J K Rowling's position on trans issues - generally understood to be -exclusionary, is due for emphasis in the lede, I have previously stated my position that it is due for inclusion, and my preference that it be referred to with precise rather than vague language. [[User:Newimpartial|Newimpartial]] ([[User talk:Newimpartial|talk]]) 15:39, 16 March 2021 (UTC) |
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====Weird characterisation==== |
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Jk doesn't want to take anything away rather shes encouraging caution regarding matters of gender and activism. The kiera bell case proves much of Jk Rowling's concerns as valid . |
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"Since 2017,[4] she has written frequently about transgender rights, mostly in the context of proposed changes to UK gender recognition laws that would make it easier to transition without a medical diagnosis." |
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And |
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Instead of just reporting on the controversy |
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Many Wikipedia editors seek to make sure dislike for Rowling is driven in . |
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I'm not going to mention names. They know who they are. |
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I don't get why we're using such a weirdly unspecific wording as "about". Like "she has written frequently against transgender rights" says something. If we can't get the sentence to say something with actual meaning, then the sentence is filler and should be scrapped: as it is, the only part that seems to be meaningful is "since 2017". |
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Can't wait for someone to go all monkey when its revealed another actor supports Jk rowling : that actor being Ralph Fiennes. [[User:HPDEATHLYHALLOWS4|Hpdh4]] ([[User talk:HPDEATHLYHALLOWS4|talk]]) 11:40, 21 March 2021 (UTC) |
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Well, there's also the part about the gender recognition laws being the main focus... I have to ask if that's supported by sources as a general rule, or if the sources only say that she reacted at three times to such laws. It's kind of hard to make such a general statement with sources locked to very narrow periods of time. If the statement is something like "initially in response to..." then that's much easier to support. |
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:In your opinion. And while that ''is'' your opinion, HPDH4, which you're entitled to hold, you're not entitled to include opinion in the article without citations. As for your last sentence - maybe read [[WP:NOTHERE]] and [[WP:RIGHTINGGREATWRONGS]]... [[User:Bastun|<span style="font-family:Verdana, sans-serif">Bastun</span>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]</sup> 13:01, 21 March 2021 (UTC) |
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Like, the draft's a massive improvement, but that one sentence... <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em; class=texhtml">'''[[User:Adam Cuerden|Adam Cuerden]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Adam Cuerden|talk]])</sup><sub>Has about 8.9% of all [[WP:FP|FPs]].</sub></span> 22:45, 10 May 2024 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 7 March 2021 == |
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*And, she's not writing about or against transgender rights. She's writing about the law and the definition of a woman, with a focus on access to female-only spaces. I'll get my thinking cap on.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 10:22, 12 May 2024 (UTC) |
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{{edit protected|J. K. Rowling|answered=yes}} |
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*:Actually why not just say that? |
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[[Special:Contributions/2A01:CB08:13D:8700:430:445:D5F3:A721|2A01:CB08:13D:8700:430:445:D5F3:A721]] ([[User talk:2A01:CB08:13D:8700:430:445:D5F3:A721|talk]]) 08:12, 7 March 2021 (UTC) |
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::{{tq2|Since 2017 she has written about the law and the definition of a woman. She is concerned about proposed changes to UK law that would make it easier to transition without a medical diagnosis, and about freedom of speech. She is particularly interested in how increased transgender rights would affect access to female-only spaces and legal protections for women.}} |
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::The downside is, it's long.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 10:31, 12 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::I think, as long as that doesn't replace the sentences after the one under discussion, that it's okay, but I do worry we're skirting the line of falling into the gender critical movement's framing of itself. As the rest of the paragraph explains, her views are very anti-transwomen. <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em; class=texhtml">'''[[User:Adam Cuerden|Adam Cuerden]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Adam Cuerden|talk]])</sup><sub>Has about 8.9% of all [[WP:FP|FPs]].</sub></span> 13:22, 12 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::::I wouldn't just say anti-trans woman. She has expressed some pretty serious contempt for trans men too, just in the "poor deluded girls" framing that often gets people to mistake condescension for concern. |
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::::I agree that "about" is bad and "against" is better. But maybe something like {{tq|She has frequently opposed proposed laws that would expand transgender rights, such as...}} would be even better? [[User:LokiTheLiar|Loki]] ([[User talk:LokiTheLiar|talk]]) 14:43, 12 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::True, though her views on transmen aren't as widely reported (and more-or-less don't appear in the rest of the proposed paragraph) so it's a little harder to source with the restrictions on sources <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em; class=texhtml">'''[[User:Adam Cuerden|Adam Cuerden]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Adam Cuerden|talk]])</sup><sub>Has about 8.9% of all [[WP:FP|FPs]].</sub></span> 16:10, 12 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::I wouldn't write "opposed proposed". You might say I'm disposed to oppose opposed proposed.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 16:22, 12 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::😅 |
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:::::::Alright then, {{tq|She has frequently spoken against proposed laws that would expand transgender rights, such as...}}. [[User:LokiTheLiar|Loki]] ([[User talk:LokiTheLiar|talk]]) 18:56, 12 May 2024 (UTC) |
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*How about: |
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:{{tq2|Since 2017 she has written about transgender people. She resists proposed changes to UK law that would make it simpler to transition without a medical diagnosis. She is concerned about how easier transitions could affect access to female-only spaces and legal protections for women.}} |
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:Better?—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 19:06, 12 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::This works! [[User:Scientelensia|Scientelensia]] ([[User talk:Scientelensia|talk]]) 19:08, 12 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Now up as draft 6.2.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 19:14, 12 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::::I still don't like it because IMO {{tq|Since 2017 she has written about transgender people}} is meaningless without saying which way she has written about them. We could cut that sentence and just have: |
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::::{{tq2|Since 2017 she has resisted proposed changes to UK law that would make it simpler to transition without a medical diagnosis. She is concerned about how easier transitions could affect access to female-only spaces and legal protections for women.}} [[User:LokiTheLiar|Loki]] ([[User talk:LokiTheLiar|talk]]) 23:28, 12 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::She hasn't, though. She started writing about trans issues in 2017 but the resistance to legal changes dates to 2019 at the earliest, so that's counterfactual.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 23:43, 12 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::Was there any commentary of particular prominence or noteworthiness in 2017 or 2018? If not, one could say something like "While she had made some comments beginning in 2017, her views first came to widespread prominence in 2019..." and then jump into the Maya Forstater stuff and the proposed changes to UK law. If her extremely early views are going to hurt an otherwise clear and consise description of what she did, cut out the information or isolate it to its own sentence. <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em; class=texhtml">'''[[User:Adam Cuerden|Adam Cuerden]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Adam Cuerden|talk]])</sup><sub>Has about 8.9% of all [[WP:FP|FPs]].</sub></span> 01:56, 13 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::: That's a lot of extra words though.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 06:48, 13 May 2024 (UTC) |
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*In draft 6.3, I've cut the disputed sentence.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 06:54, 13 May 2024 (UTC) |
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== Suissa and Sullivan == |
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:{{notdone}} Unclear what request is being made. — '''[[User:Czello|<i style="color:#8000FF">Czello</i>]]''' 08:48, 7 March 2021 (UTC) |
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{{cot|Continue this at [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Suissa and Sullivan]], please.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 15:19, 15 May 2024 (UTC)}} |
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We've discussed anove what an odd source this is, and how it has sections that are clearly pro-gender critical movement. The introduction explicitly states that transwomen are not women, and that transgender people need no mord rights than already offered under UK law at the time. In the revised draft, it's used once. Does it ''have'' to be used at all? <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em; class=texhtml">'''[[User:Adam Cuerden|Adam Cuerden]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Adam Cuerden|talk]])</sup><sub>Has about 8.9% of all [[WP:FP|FPs]].</sub></span> 16:13, 12 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:Is it your position that no source that takes such positions should be used? How about sources that take opposing positions (stating that trans women are women, that transgender people need more rights under law, and being anti-gender-critical movement)? Do all sources have to be strictly neutral, or is it just that sources taking one side (but not the other) need to be avoided? [[User:Dtobias|*Dan T.*]] ([[User talk:Dtobias|talk]]) 14:51, 13 May 2024 (UTC) |
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== Unnecessary editorializing text == |
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::The issue here is that it appears to be a non-mainstream position in academic philosophy. (I'd link that to [[WP:FRINGE]] but in the context of philosophy that feels inflammatory. Nevertheless, I still would avoid citing it for its argument for similar reasons.) And it's also only being used as a redundant citation for a single footnote right now. [[User:LokiTheLiar|Loki]] ([[User talk:LokiTheLiar|talk]]) 02:17, 14 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::In which case there's no reason to cut it.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 07:04, 14 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::::It's giving a questionable source exposure. I'm not sure how it adds anything but makes the article vulnerable to a source check. Does it even support the content? <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em; class=texhtml">'''[[User:Adam Cuerden|Adam Cuerden]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Adam Cuerden|talk]])</sup><sub>Has about 8.9% of all [[WP:FP|FPs]].</sub></span> 07:19, 14 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::Well, you say it's questionable, but you've raised questions about its ideology rather than its accuracy.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 07:40, 14 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::They're saying it's [[WP:PROFRINGE]] - which it is - and as such it should not be used as a source in circumstances like this one. [[User:Simonm223|Simonm223]] ([[User talk:Simonm223|talk]]) 17:22, 14 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::No, that sentence isn't promoting a fringe theory.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 18:23, 14 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::The paper is, for example, {{tq|We will argue that current conflicts around sex and gender are not about trans rights per se, which we fully support, and which are already protected under current UK legislation,1 but about the imposition of ontological claims underlying a particular ideological position. Often associated with the intellectual traditions of postmodernism and queer theory, this position entails denying the material reality and political salience of sex as a category, and rejecting the rights of women as a sex class (Jones and Mackenzie, 2020). Disallowing discussion on these points is a feature of and, as we will argue, fundamental to a prominent strand of activism associated with this position, which we will refer to here as the gender identity ideology and movement.}} Is dipping into fringe territory with the claims that: |
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::::::::# There is a postmodernism and queer theory-derived ontological position that denies the material reality of sex as a category. |
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::::::::# That said ontological position "rejects the rights of women" |
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::::::::# That discussion of these points is disallowed |
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::::::::These are fringe positions. They're frankly farcical if you have even a passing familiarity with queer theory or the major ontological works of "postmodernism". [[User:Simonm223|Simonm223]] ([[User talk:Simonm223|talk]]) 18:51, 14 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::::Carrying on, we have this chestnut: {{tq|For gender identity campaigners, simply asserting that sex exists as a meaningful category, distinct from people’s self-declared ‘gender identity’, is deemed transphobic. Lobby groups such as Stonewall demand affirmation of the mantra ‘Trans Women Are Women’, with explicit and repeated calls for ‘No debate’. The statement ‘Trans Women Are Women’ could be assumed to be a polite fiction.}} Which is both deeply inaccurate, deliberately disingenuous with its interpretation of what "trans women are women" means and also pretty bloody bigoted to boot such as the language it uses to position [[Stonewall (charity)]]. [[User:Simonm223|Simonm223]] ([[User talk:Simonm223|talk]]) 18:59, 14 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::::I would give this line {{tq|In practice, the kinds of statements that routinely lead to people (overwhelmingly women) being denounced as transphobes include:}} a big old {{citation needed}} tag if it were in a Wikipedia article. Since, you know, it makes a factual claim with absolutely no citation nor evidence. [[User:Simonm223|Simonm223]] ([[User talk:Simonm223|talk]]) 19:02, 14 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::Over and over Suissa and Sullivan make the claim, unsupported by evidence, that the ideology of Stonewall and another trans rights charity erases, eliminates or obviates sex as a protected category. This is a factually inaccurate statement and is, frankly, a [[WP:FRINGE]] view within politics, social sciences and philosophy regarding the relationship between sex and gender and how trans rights legislation goes about protecting the rights of trans people. This is what I mean when I say it's fringe. The whole paper, front to back, is fringe. And, in fact, had such slap-dash research quality that the press had to issue a factual correction. [[User:Simonm223|Simonm223]] ([[User talk:Simonm223|talk]]) 19:09, 14 May 2024 (UTC) |
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{{unindent}}My draft uses that source as a reference for: "[Rowling] received insults and threats". Not a single part of [[WP:FRINGE]] or [[WP:PROFRINGE]] is relevant.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 19:31, 14 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:The question is whether the source, as a fringe source, should be used when another, non-fringe, source would suffice for that particular piece of copy. I don't think anyone is objecting to the claim that Rowling was insulted and may have even faced threats. [[User:Simonm223|Simonm223]] ([[User talk:Simonm223|talk]]) 19:50, 14 May 2024 (UTC) |
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The text ''"Most hostility in women's bathrooms is directed at trans women and lesbians; 200 municipalities that allowed trans people to use women's shelters saw no rise in any violence as a result.[262]"'' from the section "Transgender people" should be removed. It is editorializing, instead of presenting Rowling's views in a neutral way (neither agreeing, nor disagreeing with them). Furthermore, the 200 municipalities mentioned in the source are in the United States, not in the UK/Scotland where Rowling lives.[[Special:Contributions/2A02:2F01:5DFF:FFFF:0:0:6465:5186|2A02:2F01:5DFF:FFFF:0:0:6465:5186]] ([[User talk:2A02:2F01:5DFF:FFFF:0:0:6465:5186|talk]]) 19:34, 28 March 2021 (UTC) |
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:I mean, if it's not a reliable source, we shouldn't use it to source anything. [[User:LokiTheLiar|Loki]] ([[User talk:LokiTheLiar|talk]]) 21:37, 14 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::I'd also question whether it's even a great source for citing the information it's meant to. Quote the text in Suissa and Sullivan that supports that point. <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em; class=texhtml">'''[[User:Adam Cuerden|Adam Cuerden]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Adam Cuerden|talk]])</sup><sub>Has about 8.9% of all [[WP:FP|FPs]].</sub></span> 22:25, 14 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Okay! I've said "Rowling received insults and threats". Suissa and Sullivan p. 69 supports the insult part of that, which if you read it, is specifically that Rowling got told to "choke on a basket of dicks". Among many other things. Because that's the level of discourse you get on Twitter.{{pb}}Anyway, at issue here is whether Suissa and Sullivan is a reliable source for the claim being made. You have identified that it's not an impartial source. As you rightly say, it has a POV. Predictably, Wikipedia has a rule about that. The rule says that Wikipedia articles have to be neutral, but sources don't. Good sources are by experts and experts ''always'' have a POV. Our task, as Wikipedians, is to construct a NPOV article from POV sources. (This is all written up in WP:RS, and specifically the paragraph at [[WP:BIASEDSOURCES]].){{pb}}It's also true that some sources are just unreliable for ''any claim at all''. We call those sources "deprecated" and they include for example the Daily Mail. The Daily Mail isn't unreliable for being a horrible Tory rag full of ghastly right-wing opinions (even though it definitely is). We don't deprecate other horrible Tory rags full of ghastly right-wing opinions. We deprecate the Daily Mail because it has a history of straight up lying, publishing stuff its so-called journalists made up in their lunch breaks.{{pb}}Where a source is an academic or professional journalist, to deprecate it needs an ''extraordinary'' level of proof. The Daily Mail's complete sitewide deprecation needed three RfCs, [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 220#Daily Mail RfC|here]], [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 255#2nd RfC: The Daily Mail|here]], and [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 299#RFC: Remove "reliable historically" sentence from WP:RSPDM summary|here]], the third of which I personally closed in June 2020. If you want to say Suissa and Sullivan are unreliable for ''any claim at all'', then that's the kind of level of proof that Wikipedians demand.{{pb}}But if you want to say it's unreliable for the specific claim I'm making, then that's a normal use of a talk page and I'm all ears.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 22:36, 14 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::::That's not how any of this works. What you're describing is not [[WP:DEPS|deprecated]], it's [[WP:GUNREL|generally unreliable]]. "Deprecated" means that a source is both generally unreliable and we warn people whenever they try to add it. Even generally unreliable sources {{tq|should never be used for information about a living person}}, as this source is being used here. [[User:LokiTheLiar|Loki]] ([[User talk:LokiTheLiar|talk]]) 22:44, 14 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::::: It's not unreliable for the claim I'm making.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 22:58, 14 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::I see no policy-based reason for excluding the source or the content it's citing. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 23:01, 14 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::You yourself say that it ''only'' sources the insult part - and it literally only quotes one incident of it. So it doesn't even source half the content that's its ''only'' reason for being in the article in the first place. <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em; class=texhtml">'''[[User:Adam Cuerden|Adam Cuerden]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Adam Cuerden|talk]])</sup><sub>Has about 8.9% of all [[WP:FP|FPs]].</sub></span> 23:31, 14 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::I get that you don't like it, Adam, but this is a teachable moment. I can use a source without conceding to a single one of its biases.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 00:17, 15 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::::I don't think you ''should''. It's improving the prominence of a POV, Fringe source without any compelling reason, not even to properly source the phrase in question (as it only sources half). Insisting on including it is no different than someone putting in a spam link to vaguely cite some fact in an article. <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em; class=texhtml">'''[[User:Adam Cuerden|Adam Cuerden]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Adam Cuerden|talk]])</sup><sub>Has about 8.9% of all [[WP:FP|FPs]].</sub></span> 00:50, 15 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::I refer you to my answer of 14th May at 22:36, paragraph 2.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 11:13, 15 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::::::There's a bit of [[WP:IDHT]] going on here - our concern is not with whether Rowling was insulted - I am confident you can find plenty of reliable sources for that - the concern is that this source is [[WP:PROFRINGE]] and as such should not be used for a general comment about a [[WP:BLP]] regardless of whether the source should be deprecated. [[User:Simonm223|Simonm223]] ([[User talk:Simonm223|talk]]) 12:37, 15 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::::::: There's certainly plenty of IDHT going on here. Since you persist in claiming that the source is generally unreliable, I'll open a thread on WP:RSN about it later today, so we can collapse all this verbiage until it's archived.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 12:54, 15 May 2024 (UTC) |
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{{cob}} |
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So, if I'm understanding discussion properly, perhaps [[WP:ONUS]] Suissa and Sullivan is out and we can finally move on with getting this back to FA level? <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em; class=texhtml">'''[[User:Adam Cuerden|Adam Cuerden]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Adam Cuerden|talk]])</sup><sub>Has about 8.8% of all [[WP:FP|FPs]].</sub></span> 14:37, 26 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:I agree. Someone should make a draft 7, if we feel it's necessary. [[User:LokiTheLiar|Loki]] ([[User talk:LokiTheLiar|talk]]) 22:55, 26 May 2024 (UTC) |
Revision as of 22:55, 26 May 2024
J. K. Rowling is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on April 11, 2008, and on June 26, 2022. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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This level-5 vital article is rated FA-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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"Transgender people" section should be re-titled as "Transphobia"
Why are we white-washing her transphobic views? Representing overt transphobia as simply her "views on transphobic people" is reductive. It makes her views sound way more benign than they really are, violating NPOV in the process. 98.116.173.242 (talk) 02:42, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- No, it shouldn't. Because it labels her, and leaves no room in a section like that for any supportive or neutral views of transgender people, and this is a WP:BLP which must maintain a neutral point of view. There is no ban on representing her transphobia in a section entitled Views on Transgender people, and well-sourced content on her transphobic views are welcome in that section. The heading is fine as it stands. Mathglot (talk) 02:59, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- Reinforcing this - WP:BLP has a very specific and strident set of guidelines about how we can refer to a person and, in order for us to just say "Rowling is a transphobe," we would need the vast preponderance of reliable sources, including, in her case, academic sources to say "Rowling is a transphobe." Otherwise we simply cannot. That's why you'll see the fiddly and fussy discussions over minutia above. There's a pretty widespread sentiment right now that the article, as it stands, is not neutral or accurate regarding how Rowling has expressed her political views surrounding the rights of trans people. And a lot of effort is going into trying to correct that within the bounds of what we can do on Wikipedia. For more, though, we must use other venues than Wikipedia. Simonm223 (talk) 13:23, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- No it shouldn't, for reasons already explained. But since Rowling's comments have been made in the context of changes to laws, a more apt section heading would be something like Transgender rights. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:17, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- 98.116.173.242: This is an idea riddled with bias and cannot be accepted. I agree with @Simonm223, this page is very left-leaning and biased. I think it needs radical changes, personally. Scientelensia (talk) 14:21, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
- I think you should probably go back and re-read what I said. Because my concern is that it is not neutral in that it under-plays the extent to which Rowling is transphobic but that we should make sure that changes happen within the appropriate boundaries of WP:BLP. Simonm223 (talk) 14:57, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
Reboot: Draft 6 (near final)
- First five drafts can be reviewed at #Proposed text for "Transgender people" section; previous discussions and source dumps in Talk:J. K. Rowling/Archive 16.
Draft 6
NOTE!!!! I have reversed the order (draft vs. historical) compared to earlier versions because it's easier to edit with the draft first. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:53, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
Draft 6: 459 words | Historical: 429 words |
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Rowling espouses gender-critical views.[1][2][3] Since 2017,[4] she has written frequently about transgender rights, mostly in the context of proposed changes to UK gender recognition laws that would make it easier to transition without a medical diagnosis.[5][6][7][a] She opposes gender self-recognition[12][13][b] and suggests that children and cisgender women are threatened by trans women and trans-positive messages.[15] In April 2024, responding to Scotland's Hate Crime and Public Order Act, she tweeted a list of trans women, writing that they are "men, every last one of them".[16] Controversy over Rowling's gender-critical messaging accelerated in 2019 when she defended Maya Forstater.[17] When Forstater's employment contract with the London branch of the Center for Global Development was not renewed after she expressed gender-critical views,[18] Rowling wrote that trans people should live in "peace and security", but questioned women being "force[d] out of their jobs for stating that sex is real".[19][c] According to Harry Potter scholar Lana Whited, in the next six months "Rowling herself fanned the flames as she became increasingly vocal".[24] In June 2020,[24] Rowling mocked the phrase "people who menstruate",[25] and tweeted that women's rights and "lived reality" would be "erased" if "sex isn't real".[26][18] Rowling's views have impacted her reputation. As her views on the legal status of transgender people came under scrutiny,[9] she received insults and threats[27][28] and discussion moved beyond the Twitter community.[29] While her remarks provoked condemnation,[10][30][31] sales of Harry Potter books grew during the COVID-19 lockdown.[32][33] Fans turned away from her work and boycotted events, and publishers hesitated to accept her work.[34] Criticism came from the Harry Potter fansites MuggleNet and The Leaky Cauldron,[35] and LGBT charities Mermaids,[36] Stonewall,[37] and Human Rights Campaign.[5] GLAAD called Rowling's comments "cruel" and "inaccurate".[38] Leading actors of the Wizarding World spoke out against her stance;[39][40] Daniel Radcliffe, Emma Watson, Rupert Grint, Eddie Redmayne and others declared support for the transgender community.[41][d] After Kerry Kennedy expressed "profound disappointment" in her views, Rowling returned the Ripple of Hope Award given to her by the Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights organisation.[45] Rowling rejects these characterisations and denies being transphobic.[14][46] In an essay posted on her website in June 2020 – that left trans people feeling betrayed[12][35] – Rowling said her views on women's rights arose from her experience as a survivor of domestic abuse and sexual assault.[47][48] While affirming that "the majority of trans-identified people not only pose zero threat to others, but are vulnerable ... Trans people need and deserve protection", she wrote that it would be unsafe to allow "any man who believes or feels he's a woman" into bathrooms or changing rooms.[48][49][50] Whited asserted in 2024 that Rowling's sometimes "flippant" and "simplistic understanding of gender identity" had permanently changed her "relationship not only with fans, readers, and scholars ... but also with her works themselves".[51] |
Rowling's responses to proposed changes to UK gender recognition laws,[5][6][e] and her views on sex and gender, have provoked controversy.[10] Her statements have divided feminists;[7][52][53] fuelled debates on freedom of speech,[54][55] academic freedom[9] and cancel culture;[30] and prompted declarations of support for transgender people from the literary,[56] arts[57] and culture sectors.[58] When Maya Forstater's employment contract with the London branch of the Center for Global Development was not renewed after she tweeted gender-critical views,[18][19] Rowling responded in December 2019 with a tweet that transgender people should live their lives as they pleased in "peace and security", but questioned women being "force[d] out of their jobs for stating that sex is real".[19][f] In another controversial tweet in June 2020,[36] Rowling mocked an article for using the phrase "people who menstruate",[25] and tweeted that women's rights and "lived reality" would be "erased" if "sex isn't real".[60][61] LGBT charities and leading actors of the Wizarding World franchise condemned Rowling's comments;[39][40][g] GLAAD called them "cruel" and "inaccurate".[65] Rowling responded with an essay on her website[14] in which she revealed that her views on women's rights were informed by her experience as a survivor of domestic abuse and sexual assault.[48] While affirming that "the majority of trans-identified people not only pose zero threat to others, but are vulnerable ... Trans people need and deserve protection", she believed that it would be unsafe to allow "any man who believes or feels he's a woman" into bathrooms or changing rooms.[48][66][67] Writing of her own experiences with sexism and misogyny,[68] she wondered if the "allure of escaping womanhood" would have led her to transition if she had been born later, and said that trans activism was "seeking to erode 'woman' as a political and biological class".[69] Rowling's continual statements – beginning in 2017[10][70][71] – have been called transphobic by critics[72][73] and she has been referred to as a TERF.[73][74][75] She rejects these characterisations and the notion that she holds animosity towards transgender people, saying that her viewpoint has been misunderstood.[14][72][71] Criticism of Rowling's views has come from the Harry Potter fansites MuggleNet and The Leaky Cauldron;[76] and the charities Mermaids,[36] Stonewall,[77] and Human Rights Campaign.[78] After Kerry Kennedy expressed "profound disappointment" in her views, Rowling returned the Ripple of Hope Award given to her by the Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights organisation.[45] As Rowling's views on the legal status of transgender people came under scrutiny,[9] she received insults and death threats[27][79] and discussion moved beyond the Twitter community.[29] Some performers and feminists have supported her.[29][80] Figures from the arts world criticised "hate speech directed against her".[81] |
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Notes
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Discussion of draft 6
My intent was to work in everything mentioned under Draft 5, recognizing that the first sentence may still be a sticking point. My apologies if I missed anything (it's been quite a chore to keep up with this talk page :).
Going forward, could people please remember that we are now at a state which is approaching final and would like others to weigh in, so please try to keep your feedback chronological, brief, and within a separate fourth-level heading when starting a new issue. All that said, I think great progress has been made, in a collegial and collaborative environment!! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:53, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
- Sandy, for consistency with the previous drafts, I think these need to be flipped with the new one on the right and the historical on the left. Unless I'm missing something? Victoria (tk) 20:28, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
- I left a note about that at the top of #Draft 6; when editing to make changes, it's easier if the version being edited is first. I often had to start over, as I entered changes in the old version when trying to change the draft, so having the draft first is easier. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:08, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
First sentence: feedback needed
- This is a substantial improvement. I'd delete "espoused" without replacement, and I'd simplify "Beginning in" to "Since", and then I'm happyish with it.—S Marshall T/C 00:26, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
- Implemented beginning in --> since.. On the opening sentence, now that the rest of the para gives more context (the laws and the self-identification without diagnosis), I would probably be OK with that as well, but I'll wait to hear from others before implementing that change in the draft. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:48, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
- It reads okay without "espoused". If we keep it, suggest converting to present tense - "espouses". Lets see what others say. Victoria (tk) 13:29, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
- I prefer the version without "espoused", and I agree if we do keep it, it should at least be present tense. Loki (talk) 14:12, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
- Changed to present tense. On the rest, my concern is that we cite three scholarly sources who quite carefully do not label her as such, rather state that some do. Wikipedia does not lead; it follows sources. I'd feel much better about flat out labeling her if we had three scholarly sources which did that. (I've included the exact quotes from the sources; the reasons we can't label her flat out are already covered in the section just above this one, #"Transgender people" section should be re-titled as "Transphobia". And the section name should be "Transgender rights".) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:27, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
- Followup from WP:BLP:
"Material about living persons added to any Wikipedia page must be written with the greatest care and attention to verifiability, neutrality, and avoidance of original research."
In the interest of moving forward, I have attempted to find a compromise ("espouses views") for this area of disagreement. I have always been willing to install content developed by consensus on talk to the article even when I disagree with that content; I can't do that in this case, as without sources, I believe the proposed changes to the first sentence breach BLP. We can't label Rowling "gender-critical" in the absence of high-quality sources that do so. The sources we have so far do not do that. Our options at this point are: 1) find scholarly sources labeling her outright, 2) wait for more feedback, 3) someone besides me installs the draft should consensus form to add what I believe to be a BLP breach, or 4) run an RFC (do we install before the RFC, or wait a full month to get something installed, or find an interim compromise?). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:56, 6 May 2024 (UTC)- It's really important to be fully immersed in the sources to understand the nuances, and I'm not convinced an RFC would be helpful at this point. I'm fine with "espouses" because that's really the best that can be done with the sources. I'm wondering whether the sources support that she's outspoken? If so, can we simply say something along the lines that "Rowling has been vocal about her gender-critical beliefs". Sorry, I'm not feeling well today, so this is just brainstorming and an imperfectly framed idea and I don't have sources open to check, so feel free to ignore. P.s - thanks Sandy for the work on the talkpage - I got caught in a number of edit conflicts earlier. Victoria (tk) 18:22, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
- After walking away for a bit of perspective & then re-reading this evening, "espouses" seems fine to me. Victoria (tk) 23:17, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- Followup from WP:BLP:
- It reads okay without "espoused". If we keep it, suggest converting to present tense - "espouses". Lets see what others say. Victoria (tk) 13:29, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
- Implemented beginning in --> since.. On the opening sentence, now that the rest of the para gives more context (the laws and the self-identification without diagnosis), I would probably be OK with that as well, but I'll wait to hear from others before implementing that change in the draft. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:48, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
- Scholarly sources are written for scholars, so there are things they don't say.
- The sun is quite large and rather hot. But you won't find a paper in an astronomical journal that says so. The paper might give specifics of the sun's temperature at various depths, its diameter, its mass, its density or its circumference. But if you need to explain in a Wikipedia article that the sun is big and hot, scholarly sources are no good at all. Because the astronomy professors are writing for an audience that knows about stars, there are things they don't have to say and they don't waste words on.
- Therefore you need a source that says the sun is big and hot, you have to go to a non-academic source.
- But, Sandy, I want to ask you to stop and think here. If, as it seems, you can genuinely read the sources on Rowling and not think she has gender-critical views, then really, how objective are you about this?—S Marshall T/C 00:13, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- I agree with you that we shouldn't require scholarly sources specifically if we have good quality WP:NEWSORG ones. But I do sympathize somewhat with Sandy here: this is a featured article on a BLP and we do need to make sure we can clearly source everything we say about her. Loki (talk) 02:17, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- Re S Marshall, the "sun is hot" analogy doesn't apply to this situation for two reasons.
- We have three high-quality sources (that multiple editors seem to agree are good scholarly sources) that quite specifically are not silent on the topic, as an astronomy professor may be on whether the sun is hot. The academics we have so far do address the matter by specifically not saying that JKR is a TERF, rather they clearly state that some say she is, while others disagree. Silence on the "sun is hot" is not the situation here.
- Since the sun is not a living person, Wikipedia doesn't have a Wikipedia policy to make sure we don't defame it.
- We can't use lower quality sources to refute good academic sources that we have on this matter, and Wikipedia can't be the first to say something that high quality sources, when specifically addressing the matter, have not said as far as we know. Re your final question, perhaps you would stop and think about whether you want to be the first editor in several years to personalize a discussion on this, or the FAR, talk page? What any of us thinks is irrelevant; our content is guided by policy and sources. If there really are no scholarly sources or academics willing to label JKR a TERF, then we should be moving forward on an alternate way to frame the first sentence; compromise should not be hard, considering there are many ways to frame the sentence. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:51, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- All right then.
- We need one phrase that encapsulates J. K. Rowling's views on sex and gender. In draft 6, we've already decided and agreed that she:
- Opposes gender self-recognition;
- Accuses trans women of being men;
- Believes sex is real, or at least, warns of dire consequences of thinking sex isn't real; and
- Denies being transphobic.
- These are of course the precise views we cover in Gender-critical feminism, with a long string of academic references for the definition. But also at issue here is the law, and there's also a legal definition of what gender-critical views are, from the judgment in Maya Forstater -v- CGD Europe & ors. They include: The belief that sex is immutable and not to be conflated with gender identity... [which are] ...absolutist in nature and whereby... [Forstater would] ...refer to a person by the sex she considers appropriate even if it violates their dignity and/or creates an intimidating, hostile, degrading or offensive environment. According to the Tribunal, this is the element of gender-critical views that amounts to a protected philosophical belief. It's even more simply encapsulated (at page 3) as: the Claimant’s belief as to the immutability of sex. (This is the Law of England and Wales. Unfortunately for 13tez, Maya Forstater's case isn't about Scots Law.)
- Therefore, J. K. Rowling's views on sex and gender meet both the academic and legal tests for what a gender-critical belief is. QED.
- The objection is that a sufficiently academic source doesn't say so. Wikipedia does have a problem with this. We use hedges like: "[Donald] Trump's political positions are viewed by some as right-wing populist" (from Political positions of Donald Trump), because to say Donald Trump is a right wing populist in wikivoice would be sooo controversial.—S Marshall T/C 08:07, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- I feel it should be pointed out that this section "[Forstater would] ...refer to a person by the sex she considers appropriate even if it violates their dignity and/or creates an intimidating, hostile, degrading or offensive environment." is the Appeal Tribunal quoting the first instance judgement, and was an interpretation disputed in that appeal. The Appeal judgement found that "On a proper reading of the Judgment, the Tribunal was stating that the Claimant would not use preferred pronouns whenever she considered it appropriate not to do so. That must mean that she would not use them where she considered it to be relevant. If that is correct, then the description “absolutist” would appear to be something of a misnomer as her position was more nuanced and context dependent." Absolutism and an automatic rejection of preferred pronouns are not therefore part of the legal definition of the protected gender-critical belief in the UK. Daff22 (talk) 11:56, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- We need one phrase that encapsulates J. K. Rowling's views on sex and gender. In draft 6, we've already decided and agreed that she:
Unnecessary attribution ?
Re
In an essay posted on her website in June 2020 – that Tolonda Henderson[35] and Whited state left trans people feeling betrayed[12] – Rowling said her views ...
Could we drop the attribution, and make this just:
In an essay posted on her website in June 2020 – that left trans people feeling betrayed[12][35] – Rowling said her views ....
My impression is that this is a widely supported statement, so that the attribution is creating a false impression, not needed, and only clunking up the sentence. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:56, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
- Imv: Yes, drop it.—S Marshall T/C 18:02, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
- I agree we can drop the attribution there. Loki (talk) 18:03, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
- Done, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:55, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
Thoughts from Scientelensia
Regarding this part: “In April 2024, responding to Scotland's Hate Crime and Public Order Act, she tweeted a list of trans women, writing that they are "men, every last one of them".”
- Could it be changed to this (or a shorter version of it)? “After the Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Act 2021 had come into force in April 2024, Rowling, who resides in Edinburgh, took to X to criticise the bill, stating that "freedom of speech and belief" was at an end if accurate description of biological sex was outlawed. She further posted a list of transgender women, and wrote that they were "men, every last one of them".[1] Rowling also said: "Scottish lawmakers seem to have placed higher value on the feelings of men performing their idea of femaleness, however misogynistically or opportunistically, than on the rights and freedoms of actual women and girls."[2]”
My main criticsm of this draft (though it is much better than before) is that:
- The actors who didn’t support Rowling are in the main text, the others are merely a note. I understand the difference between main and supporting actors, but it does seem that those who oppose Rowling are being given more prominence. Intentions could be misconstrued. As for scholarly sources (which Sandy Georgia wanted; these are surely adequate I hope):[3][4][5][6] (for example). From Scientelensia (17:47, May 7, 2024)
- Another main criticism is that this paragraph…
- Fans turned away from her work, boycotted events, and publishers hesitated to accept her work. Criticism came from the Harry Potter fansites MuggleNet and The Leaky Cauldron, and LGBT charities Mermaids, Stonewall, and Human Rights Campaign. GLAAD called Rowling's comments "cruel" and "inaccurate". Leading actors of the Wizarding World spoke out against her stance; Daniel Radcliffe, Emma Watson, Rupert Grint, Eddie Redmayne and others declared support for the transgender community. After Kerry Kennedy expressed "profound disappointment" in her views, Rowling returned the Ripple of Hope Award given to her by the Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights organisation.
- …almost wholly only lists critics from organisations. No support for her has been mentioned at all, which arguably displays bias as there was a lot of support for her also. From Scientelensia (20:04, May 7, 2024)
- The last paragraph also fails to mention any praise for JK Rowling’s essay; only criticism. Only the views of trans people are considered. See for example: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-55350905. From Scientelensia (20:08, May 7, 2024)
References
- ^ "J.K. Rowling Mocks Trans Women To Defy Scotland's New Hate Crime Law: "I Look Forward To Being Arrested"". deadline.com. Archived from the original on 1 April 2024. Retrieved 3 April 2024.
- ^ "JK Rowling in 'arrest me' challenge over hate crime law". BBC News. 1 April 2024. Retrieved 8 April 2024.
- ^ "Ralph Fiennes: Verbal abuse directed at JK Rowling is disgusting and appalling". The Telegraph. 24 October 2022. Retrieved 13 December 2022.
{{cite web}}
: CS1 maint: url-status (link) - ^ "'It's horrendous': Helena Bonham Carter defends JK Rowling and Johnny Depp". The Guardian. 28 October 2022. Retrieved 30 November 2022.
{{cite web}}
: CS1 maint: url-status (link) - ^ "JK Rowling: Miriam Margolyes says anger at Harry Potter author over trans views has been 'misplaced'". The Independent. 19 April 2022. Retrieved 16 December 2022.
{{cite web}}
: CS1 maint: url-status (link) - ^ "Robbie Coltrane says JK Rowling transphobia critics 'hang around waiting to be offended'". The Independent. Retrieved 7 May 2024.
{{cite web}}
: CS1 maint: url-status (link)
Thoughts from Victoria
A couple of thoughts to keep things moving.
- First, there's been a sustained effort to improve what's currently in the article & in my view that's a Good Thing. Pats on the back all around!
- Second, re first sentence. What we have is honestly fine. There are other options too. I'm not convinced that Wikipedia:CONTROVERSY applies - it's an essay about articles rather than about one section in an BLP. Following that line of thought, then we can write something like Rowling's remarks/comments (pick the word) have been/are controversial. This Glamour article (very long) has been continually updated for a number of years & is cited by a number of the literary critics. The verbiage they use is that J.K. Rowling has come "under fire" for controversial tweets (not verbatim, but very very close). We should either stick with the first sentence as written in Draft 6 or consider rewriting along the lines of the controversial tweets verbiage.
- Third, re scholarly sources: Rowling is a productive writer - something like 20 works in 25 years - and the reason this article exists is because of her writing career. Because she's a writer, literary critics do what literary critics do - hence scholarly sources. For this topic in Rowling's bio, those sources simply distill news sources and are now the desired secondary sources.
- Fourth, I think Scientelensia raises points that are maybe worth considering. Back when we were discussing Draft 3 it became clear that draft had veered into discussing what others were saying about Rowling, rather than what Rowling says/believes. To veer back, we might consider trimming or even cutting the text in the third para beginning from "Criticism came from the Harry Potter fansites ... " possibly to the end of the paragraph. If so, the text can focus on Rowling & there'd be fewer words.
Personally, I think we're almost there. In fact, I think we could take the "it's good enough" route and say that Draft 6 is good to go. What do others think? Victoria (tk) 23:22, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
- My general thoughts are that while there are things I'd change if I could write it entirely myself, I think that Draft 6 is basically fine and I'm not that interested in getting in a big fight about what are essentially small quibbles. Loki (talk) 23:41, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
- I'm concerned that the proposal has veered into non-neutral territory by overfocusing on one academic writer (Whited) rather than a thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature. A survey of the entire literature would not have seen us drop the one sentence in the article that is most likely to endure beyond what any Hollywood star said or thinks. "Her statements have divided feminists; fuelled debates on freedom of speech, academic freedom and cancel culture ... " and more). But this is not a hill worth dying on; I wouldn't mind if we install and move on, but if I had my druthers we'd move the list of all actors and organizations to footnotes (who is surprised at the list of charities?), and restore and expand instead the content that will endure beyond Hollywood -- that is, the overall and lasting cultural effects of the whole brouhaha as reflected in a variety of scholarly sources. A thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature produces scholarly analyses of linguistics, hate speech, fandom, feminism, women's rights, trans rights, etc -- much more than passing opinions of Radcliffe, Watson and anyone else who spends the GDP of a small country to attend the Met Gala. I don't think the draft is POV enough to tag it as such, the POV is subtle, and I won't protest if it goes in, but somewhere along the way, neutrality was dropped in the content that was excised. My solution is different than Scientelensia's; rather than add in those who support her, delete all of that recentism, and focus on a survey of the literature and the broader issues raised. But if someone wants to install now, I won't object. I still believe the section heading should be "Transgender rights". I don't think Draft 6 is FA material, but the rest of the article is, so neither do I think a FAR is in order; it's good enough, but won't endure. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:25, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- Your solution would work also, but there would also have to be rigorous testing to ensure that the selection of literary works constitutes an unbiased interpretation. Scientelensia (talk) 16:19, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- 1. Looking back at Victoria's fourth point, I agree; that's where in my view most precious real estate (word count) is misspent on excess detail, and trimming that would give us room to work back in some neutrality and replace some RECENTISM with enduring content.
could becomeCriticism came from the Harry Potter fansites MuggleNet and The Leaky Cauldron, and LGBT charities Mermaids, Stonewall, and Human Rights Campaign. GLAAD called Rowling's comments "cruel" and "inaccurate". Leading actors of the Wizarding World spoke out against her stance; Daniel Radcliffe, Emma Watson, Rupert Grint, Eddie Redmayne and others declared support for the transgender community.
by moving the detail to a footnote. That word count could be better used on more enduring issues.Criticism came from Harry Potter fansites, LGBT charities, and leading actors of the Wizarding World.
- 2. Whited may have said this, but here's where neutrality is particularly lost:
"Fans turned away from her work, boycotted events, and publishers hesitated to accept her work."
In fact, book sales increased, Universal Studios is expanding Harry Potter World, a TV series is in the works, Maya Forstater was exonerated, etc ... so while the statement is true to some extent and for many people, it's factually inaccurate in terms of leaving out the big picture, and redundant to territory already covered in the first point above. Dropping the sentence is an alternative to discuss. - 3. Looking back at Draft 4 reveals the problem with trying to write an encyclopedic entry with topic sentences: doing so can result in a POV construction that leads the reader (I forget which article is on a record number of FACs for this very problem, which has proven insurmountable). Grouping like content logically by paragraphs avoids wasting wordcount in ways that risk leading the reader or telling the reader what a paragraph is about; just the facts, and let the reader make their own decision.
- 4. I agree with Scientelensia that the sentence
she tweeted a list of trans women, writing that they are "men, every last one of them"
needs a few more clauses for context and relevance, although I wouldn't take as many words as Scientelensia suggests. - 5. And after doing that wordcount reduction, use the gained space to rework and update the enduring content based on a survey of the literature, which was:
Her statements have divided feminists; fuelled debates on freedom of speech and cancel culture; and prompted declarations of support for transgender people from the literary, arts and culture sectors
... we seem to have lost academic freedom, and there's plenty of scholarly literature on how fandom has evolved, and the power of Twitter. - We could put in Draft 6 now, but it is POV and we'll be back here in less than two years to repair the damage we inflicted. Victoriaearle I had my turn; are you interested in working up Draft 7 ?SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:55, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- PS, my separate and growing concern is that none of the three main FA authors have shown up to update the rest of the article to reflect Whited 2024, so if that doesn't happen, we're likely to end up at FAR anyway. I think we made a mistake in over-relying on Whited for transgender content, but she certainly should be used for updating literary content. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:58, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- @SandyGeorgia You suggest Criticism came from Harry Potter fansites, LGBT charities, and leading actors of the Wizarding World., but that implies (to me) all "leading" actors, which isn't true. Either define "leading actors", or quantify with "most", "some", etc. Bazza 7 (talk) 21:13, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- Yep, I wasn't trying to wordsmith the thing yet ... just give the broad points I'd do if we started over. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:23, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- Sandy please excuse my brevity, but I'm not at all able at this time. Will get back here when able. Sorry. Victoria (tk) 23:27, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- 1. Looking back at Victoria's fourth point, I agree; that's where in my view most precious real estate (word count) is misspent on excess detail, and trimming that would give us room to work back in some neutrality and replace some RECENTISM with enduring content.
- Your solution would work also, but there would also have to be rigorous testing to ensure that the selection of literary works constitutes an unbiased interpretation. Scientelensia (talk) 16:19, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
Draft 6.3
Since I agree that all of Sandy's proposed elisions improve the text, I've made them. I've made no effort to add the suggested new content, and I view cutting words as more important.—S Marshall T/C 16:31, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
Draft 6.3: 403 words | Historical: 429 words |
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Rowling has [some contributors want to add a qualifier here] gender-critical views.[1][2][3] She resists proposed changes to UK law that would make it simpler to transition without a medical diagnosis. She is concerned that easier transitions could affect access to female-only spaces and legal protections for women.[4][5][6][a] She opposes gender self-recognition[11][12][b] and suggests that children and cisgender women are threatened by trans women and trans-positive messages.[14] In April 2024, responding to Scotland's Hate Crime and Public Order Act, she tweeted a list of trans women, writing that they are "men, every last one of them".[15] Friction over Rowling's gender-critical writings surged in 2019 when she defended Maya Forstater.[16] When Forstater's employment contract with the Center for Global Development was not renewed after Forstater shared gender-critical views,[17] Rowling wrote that trans people should live in "peace and security", but questioned women being "force[d] out of their jobs for stating that sex is real".[18][c] According to Harry Potter scholar Lana Whited, in the next six months "Rowling herself fanned the flames as she became increasingly vocal".[23] In June 2020,[23] Rowling mocked the phrase "people who menstruate",[24] and tweeted that women's rights and "lived reality" would be "erased" if "sex isn't real".[25][17] Rowling's views have impacted her reputation. As her thoughts on the legal status of transgender people came under scrutiny,[8] she received insults and threats[26][27] and discussion moved beyond the Twitter community.[28] While her remarks provoked condemnation,[9][29][30] sales of Harry Potter books grew during the COVID-19 lockdown.[31][32] Criticism came from Harry Potter fansites, LGBT charities, and leading actors of the Wizarding World.[33][34][35] and Human Rights Campaign.[4][36][37][38] After Kerry Kennedy expressed "profound disappointment" in her views, Rowling returned the Ripple of Hope Award given to her by the Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights organisation.[39] Rowling rejects these characterisations and denies being transphobic.[13][40] In an essay posted on her website in June 2020 – which left trans people feeling betrayed[11][33] – Rowling said her views on women's rights sprang from survivorship of domestic abuse and sexual assault.[41][42] While affirming that "the majority of trans-identified people not only pose zero threat to others, but are vulnerable ... Trans people need and deserve protection", she wrote that it would be unsafe to allow "any man who believes or feels he's a woman" into bathrooms or changing rooms.[42][43][44] Whited asserted in 2024 that Rowling's sometimes "flippant" and "simplistic understanding of gender identity" had permanently changed her "relationship not only with fans, readers, and scholars ... but also with her works themselves".[45] |
Rowling's responses to proposed changes to UK gender recognition laws,[4][5][d] and her views on sex and gender, have provoked controversy.[9] Her statements have divided feminists;[6][46][47] fuelled debates on freedom of speech,[48][49] academic freedom[8] and cancel culture;[29] and prompted declarations of support for transgender people from the literary,[50] arts[51] and culture sectors.[52] When Maya Forstater's employment contract with the London branch of the Center for Global Development was not renewed after she tweeted gender-critical views,[17][18] Rowling responded in December 2019 with a tweet that transgender people should live their lives as they pleased in "peace and security", but questioned women being "force[d] out of their jobs for stating that sex is real".[18][e] In another controversial tweet in June 2020,[34] Rowling mocked an article for using the phrase "people who menstruate",[24] and tweeted that women's rights and "lived reality" would be "erased" if "sex isn't real".[54][55] LGBT charities and leading actors of the Wizarding World franchise condemned Rowling's comments;[37][38][f] GLAAD called them "cruel" and "inaccurate".[61] Rowling responded with an essay on her website[13] in which she revealed that her views on women's rights were informed by her experience as a survivor of domestic abuse and sexual assault.[42] While affirming that "the majority of trans-identified people not only pose zero threat to others, but are vulnerable ... Trans people need and deserve protection", she believed that it would be unsafe to allow "any man who believes or feels he's a woman" into bathrooms or changing rooms.[42][62][63] Writing of her own experiences with sexism and misogyny,[64] she wondered if the "allure of escaping womanhood" would have led her to transition if she had been born later, and said that trans activism was "seeking to erode 'woman' as a political and biological class".[65] Rowling's continual statements – beginning in 2017[9][66][67] – have been called transphobic by critics[68][69] and she has been referred to as a TERF.[69][70][71] She rejects these characterisations and the notion that she holds animosity towards transgender people, saying that her viewpoint has been misunderstood.[13][68][67] Criticism of Rowling's views has come from the Harry Potter fansites MuggleNet and The Leaky Cauldron;[72] and the charities Mermaids,[34] Stonewall,[73] and Human Rights Campaign.[74] After Kerry Kennedy expressed "profound disappointment" in her views, Rowling returned the Ripple of Hope Award given to her by the Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights organisation.[39] As Rowling's views on the legal status of transgender people came under scrutiny,[8] she received insults and death threats[26][75] and discussion moved beyond the Twitter community.[28] Some performers and feminists have supported her.[28][76] Figures from the arts world criticised "hate speech directed against her".[77] |
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Notes
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Discussion of Draft 6.1
Thanks for getting the ball rolling on this, S Marshall, and I hope Victoria feels better soon. I am traveling today and won't be able to peek in 'til tomorrow. Bst, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:49, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
- Agreed, thanks. As a newcomer to this discussion, I have to ask why are we just relying on one critic, Whited, whose opinion seems at ace level very pro-trans. What gives Whited the right to be here? Would it be useful to insert another critic to level the bias, or remove reference to Whited together?
- Also, in terms on labelling JKR, if a label is needed, gender-critical is indeed appropriate and applicable. Scientelensia (talk) 18:46, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
- If you can find a proper Rowling scholar who doesn't think Rowling's a trans-exclusionary feminist, go ahead and cite them.—S Marshall T/C 20:23, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
It's getting pretty good, actually; focused mostly on what she actually said rather than endless tedious recounting of what other people think of it. As to the discussions about whether to say "gender-critical", that seems to be a reasonable label to use, one that is frequently used as a self-label by people expressing views of a similar nature to JKR's, not a pejorative name like "TERF" or "transphobe". The point of disagreement is in the apparent lack of her actually self-labeling this way; it seems JKR hasn't applied any sort of ideological or political label to herself, preferring her views to speak for themselves. This makes it harder to put a label on her, but if one is to be applied, this one seems fairly reasonable. *Dan T.* (talk) 18:33, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
Weird characterisation
"Since 2017,[4] she has written frequently about transgender rights, mostly in the context of proposed changes to UK gender recognition laws that would make it easier to transition without a medical diagnosis."
I don't get why we're using such a weirdly unspecific wording as "about". Like "she has written frequently against transgender rights" says something. If we can't get the sentence to say something with actual meaning, then the sentence is filler and should be scrapped: as it is, the only part that seems to be meaningful is "since 2017".
Well, there's also the part about the gender recognition laws being the main focus... I have to ask if that's supported by sources as a general rule, or if the sources only say that she reacted at three times to such laws. It's kind of hard to make such a general statement with sources locked to very narrow periods of time. If the statement is something like "initially in response to..." then that's much easier to support.
Like, the draft's a massive improvement, but that one sentence... Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.9% of all FPs. 22:45, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
- And, she's not writing about or against transgender rights. She's writing about the law and the definition of a woman, with a focus on access to female-only spaces. I'll get my thinking cap on.—S Marshall T/C 10:22, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
- Actually why not just say that?
Since 2017 she has written about the law and the definition of a woman. She is concerned about proposed changes to UK law that would make it easier to transition without a medical diagnosis, and about freedom of speech. She is particularly interested in how increased transgender rights would affect access to female-only spaces and legal protections for women.
- The downside is, it's long.—S Marshall T/C 10:31, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
- I think, as long as that doesn't replace the sentences after the one under discussion, that it's okay, but I do worry we're skirting the line of falling into the gender critical movement's framing of itself. As the rest of the paragraph explains, her views are very anti-transwomen. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.9% of all FPs. 13:22, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
- I wouldn't just say anti-trans woman. She has expressed some pretty serious contempt for trans men too, just in the "poor deluded girls" framing that often gets people to mistake condescension for concern.
- I agree that "about" is bad and "against" is better. But maybe something like
She has frequently opposed proposed laws that would expand transgender rights, such as...
would be even better? Loki (talk) 14:43, 12 May 2024 (UTC)- True, though her views on transmen aren't as widely reported (and more-or-less don't appear in the rest of the proposed paragraph) so it's a little harder to source with the restrictions on sources Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.9% of all FPs. 16:10, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
- I wouldn't write "opposed proposed". You might say I'm disposed to oppose opposed proposed.—S Marshall T/C 16:22, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
- True, though her views on transmen aren't as widely reported (and more-or-less don't appear in the rest of the proposed paragraph) so it's a little harder to source with the restrictions on sources Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.9% of all FPs. 16:10, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
- I think, as long as that doesn't replace the sentences after the one under discussion, that it's okay, but I do worry we're skirting the line of falling into the gender critical movement's framing of itself. As the rest of the paragraph explains, her views are very anti-transwomen. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.9% of all FPs. 13:22, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
- How about:
Since 2017 she has written about transgender people. She resists proposed changes to UK law that would make it simpler to transition without a medical diagnosis. She is concerned about how easier transitions could affect access to female-only spaces and legal protections for women.
- Better?—S Marshall T/C 19:06, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
- This works! Scientelensia (talk) 19:08, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
- Now up as draft 6.2.—S Marshall T/C 19:14, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
- I still don't like it because IMO
Since 2017 she has written about transgender people
is meaningless without saying which way she has written about them. We could cut that sentence and just have:
Loki (talk) 23:28, 12 May 2024 (UTC)Since 2017 she has resisted proposed changes to UK law that would make it simpler to transition without a medical diagnosis. She is concerned about how easier transitions could affect access to female-only spaces and legal protections for women.
- She hasn't, though. She started writing about trans issues in 2017 but the resistance to legal changes dates to 2019 at the earliest, so that's counterfactual.—S Marshall T/C 23:43, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
- Was there any commentary of particular prominence or noteworthiness in 2017 or 2018? If not, one could say something like "While she had made some comments beginning in 2017, her views first came to widespread prominence in 2019..." and then jump into the Maya Forstater stuff and the proposed changes to UK law. If her extremely early views are going to hurt an otherwise clear and consise description of what she did, cut out the information or isolate it to its own sentence. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.9% of all FPs. 01:56, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
- That's a lot of extra words though.—S Marshall T/C 06:48, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
- Was there any commentary of particular prominence or noteworthiness in 2017 or 2018? If not, one could say something like "While she had made some comments beginning in 2017, her views first came to widespread prominence in 2019..." and then jump into the Maya Forstater stuff and the proposed changes to UK law. If her extremely early views are going to hurt an otherwise clear and consise description of what she did, cut out the information or isolate it to its own sentence. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.9% of all FPs. 01:56, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
- She hasn't, though. She started writing about trans issues in 2017 but the resistance to legal changes dates to 2019 at the earliest, so that's counterfactual.—S Marshall T/C 23:43, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
- I still don't like it because IMO
- Now up as draft 6.2.—S Marshall T/C 19:14, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
- This works! Scientelensia (talk) 19:08, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
- In draft 6.3, I've cut the disputed sentence.—S Marshall T/C 06:54, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
Suissa and Sullivan
Continue this at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Suissa and Sullivan, please.—S Marshall T/C 15:19, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
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We've discussed anove what an odd source this is, and how it has sections that are clearly pro-gender critical movement. The introduction explicitly states that transwomen are not women, and that transgender people need no mord rights than already offered under UK law at the time. In the revised draft, it's used once. Does it have to be used at all? Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.9% of all FPs. 16:13, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
My draft uses that source as a reference for: "[Rowling] received insults and threats". Not a single part of WP:FRINGE or WP:PROFRINGE is relevant.—S Marshall T/C 19:31, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
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So, if I'm understanding discussion properly, perhaps WP:ONUS Suissa and Sullivan is out and we can finally move on with getting this back to FA level? Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.8% of all FPs. 14:37, 26 May 2024 (UTC)