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|action2link=Wikipedia:Peer review/J. K. Rowling |
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{{FAOL|German|de:Joanne K. Rowling|lang2=Swedish|link2=sv:J.K. Rowling|small=yes}} |
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|action5link = Wikipedia:Featured article review/J. K. Rowling/archive1 |
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!align="center"|[[Image:Vista-file-manager.png|50px|Archive]]<br>[[Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page|Archives]] |
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*[[Talk:J. K. Rowling/Archive 01|Archive 01]] (2003 to March 2006) |
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*[[Talk:J. K. Rowling/Archive 02|Archive 02]] (March to June 2006) |
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*[[Talk:J.K. Rowling/Archive 03|Archive 03]] (Requested move) |
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*[[Talk:J.K. Rowling/Archive 04|Archive 04]] (June to December 2006) |
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*[[Talk:J.K. Rowling/Archive 05|Archive 05]] (January to April 2007) |
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*[[Talk:J.K. Rowling/Archive 06|Archive 06]] (May to June 2007) (partial) |
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==Neutrality of Harry Potter section== |
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|maindate=April 11, 2008 |
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Section has too much on controversy and witchcraft and nothing on what Rowling states is the "obvious morality of the tales." [[User:Libertycookies|Libertycookies]] 23:49, 29 June 2007 (UTC) |
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|maindate2=June 26, 2022 |
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:It's an intro paragraph. It's not supposed to go into detail. [[Religious controversy over the Harry Potter series]] does that. [[User:Serendipodous|Serendipodous]] 05:00, 30 June 2007 (UTC) |
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::So of the below draft, are you okay with everything except the quote from the book which can go into the ''Harry Potter'' article, where more detail would be appropriate? The quote below wouldn't make sense in controversy since it isn't disputed by Rowling or a significant number of Right wingers. [[User:Libertycookies|Libertycookies]] 11:30, 30 June 2007 (UTC) |
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|otd2date=2021-07-31|otd2oldid=1036292258 |
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::Fyi, from the Telegraph review of the new movie: "It is hard not to look for hidden meanings as the fight turns political. Harry knows Voldemort is back, but the Minister of Magic blindly insists that he isn't. Subservient media obediently echo ministerial spin against Harry."[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/06/29/wpotter129.xml] [[User:Libertycookies|Libertycookies]] 14:17, 30 June 2007 (UTC) |
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:::Have you looked for any articles like that about OOtP the book? The political climate hasn't changed that much in the last 4 years, and it's possible that the book was reviewed in a similar manner. Those would be quotes to help support some of your arguments. [[User:Karanacs|Karanacs]] 01:53, 1 July 2007 (UTC) |
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:::There's tons, my viewpoint is hardly unique. Here's one from the Yale Review of Books: |
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:::"the series grapples with political questions in a way that classically juvenile fiction does not. Rowling's spotlight is on the moral problems raised by class systems throughout the fifth book, as Hermione works on a campaign to free house elves, small creatures who are essentially slaves for their human owners. Although everyone else dismisses house elves as unimportant and refuses to join Hermione in her endeavors, one wicked elf ends up nearly sending Harry to his death. This elf's unexpected agency gives credence to Hermione's abolitionist efforts. The wizards are interested in politics as well, and some choose to play the system in their climb to power. Ron's brother, for example, is disowned by his family when he goes to work for a wizard whose beliefs differ from those of his parents. Rowling's magical world is inventive in its departure from kingdoms where power is gained through strength alone, and focuses instead on a social and party system inhabited by people who just happen to be magical. " http://www.yalereviewofbooks.com/archive/summer03/review08.shtml.htm |
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{{WikiProject banner shell|collapsed=yes|vital=yes|class=FA|blp=yes|living=yes|listas=Rowling, J. K.|1= |
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:::Check out the EW review of OotP: |
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{{WikiProject Biography|a&e-priority=Mid |a&e-work-group=yes }} |
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:::"...one of fiction's great villains, Dolores Umbridge, a hissable Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher who turns Hogwarts into an Orwellian nightmare of political repression. ''Dolores absolutely believes she's purging Hogwarts for the greater good,'' says Staunton, an Oscar nominee for Vera Drake. ''It's the ultimate 'I was just following orders,' isn't it?'' Says Daniel Radcliffe of the character, who plagues poor Harry with literally torturous detention, ''Bad things don't only happen when Voldemort is around.'' [http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20035285_20035331_20035117,00.html] [[User:Libertycookies|Libertycookies]] 05:26, 2 July 2007 (UTC) |
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{{WikiProject Children's literature|importance=Top}} |
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{{WikiProject Women writers|importance=Top}} |
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{{WikiProject Women}} |
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{{Talk:J. K. Rowling/FAQ}} |
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{{Press|author=Stephen Foley |date=2009-02-03 |url=http://www.independent.ie/business/technology/is-wikipedia-cracking-up-1625816.html|title=Is Wikipedia cracking up?|org=[[Irish Independent]] |section=February 2009 |
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|author2 = Hava Mendelle |
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* Draft: |
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|title2 = JK Rowling puts Wikipedia’s neutrality to the test |
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====Politics and moral significance of Harry Potter==== |
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|date2 = April 22, 2024 |
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J. K. Rowling says she is "left wing" and that there are a certain amount of politics in Harry Potter.<ref>[http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,85523,00.html]</ref> |
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|org2 = [[The Spectator Australia]] |
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|url2 = https://www.spectator.com.au/2024/04/jk-rowling-puts-wikipedias-neutrality-to-the-test/ |
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|accessdate2 = April 22, 2024 |
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| title = JK Rowling Net Worth |
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| year = 2023 |
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| author = Fehintola Ambali |
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| url = https://gatekeepersnews.com/2023/04/16/jk-rowling-net-worth/ |
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==Proposed text for "Transgender people" section== |
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Rowling said that to her, the moral significance of the tales seems obvious. The key for her was the choice between what is right and what is easy, ''"because that, that is how [[tyranny]] is started, with people being [[apathetic]] and taking the easy route and suddenly finding themselves in deep trouble."''<ref>[http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/2000/1000-vancouversun-wyman.htm]</ref> |
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:::: Previous discussions and source dumps in [[Talk:J. K. Rowling/Archive 16]]. |
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I've tried to rework the "Transgender people" section. Here's what I came up with, but am not wedded to it, so it's okay if everyone hates it. Working on this section literally gives me migraines, so I've hit a wall for now and leaving up for discussion. The new sources (Whited & Henderson) didn't format as I wanted inside the cot/cob templates so it is as is. If someone knows how to fix, that would be great. I'd suggest we also consider pulling the "Transgender people" section out from the "Views" section and give it it's own level two section as we do with "Philanthropy". Maybe put it above "Philanthropy".{{pb}} Also this page is overly long, but I'm not able to manually archive today. Thanks, [[User:Victoriaearle|Victoria]] ([[User talk:Victoriaearle|tk]]) 19:22, 19 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:Continued at [[#Discussion of first draft]]. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 20:19, 19 April 2024 (UTC) |
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In [[Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince]], Rowling has the headmaster of Hogwarts, Dumbledore, explain tyranny:<blockquote> |
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:I hope we'll defer the discussion of changing the structure/flow of the article until we are closer to having a nearly-final draft of the Transgender section (the structure reflects a chronology from the Smith and Kirk sources of how her success led to fame and wealth led to philanthropy led to her being more willing to speak out on issues ... but placement of content can be discussed later). [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 12:04, 22 April 2024 (UTC) |
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"Voldemort himself created his worst enemy, just as tyrants everywhere do! Have you any idea how much tyrants fear the people they oppress? All of them realise that, one day, amongst their many victims, there is sure to be one who rises against them and strikes back!" |
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<ref>{{cite book |
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| last =Rowling |
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| first =J. K. |
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| title =Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince |
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| publisher =Scholastic |
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| pages =pg 310 |
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</blockquote> |
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=== First draft === |
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[[WP:SYNTH]].[[User:Jossi|≈ jossi ≈]] <small>[[User_talk:Jossi|(talk)]]</small> 15:34, 30 June 2007 (UTC) |
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! style="width: 30em;" | [https://w.wiki/9p2j Current] 454 words |
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! style="width: 30em;" | Proposed (adds 19 words) |
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{{Main|Political views of J. K. Rowling#Transgender rights}} |
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Rowling's responses to proposed changes to UK gender recognition laws,<ref name= Milne2020>{{cite web|first1= Amber |last1=Milne|first2 = Rachel| last2 =Savage | url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-lgbt-rowling-explainer-trfn-idUSKBN23I3AI | title=Explainer: J. K. Rowling and trans women in single-sex spaces: what's the furore? | publisher=[[Reuters]] | date=11 June 2020 | access-date=6 April 2021 }}</ref><ref name= Brooks2020>{{Cite news|last=Brooks|first=Libby|date=11 June 2020|title=Why is JK Rowling speaking out now on sex and gender debate? |url= http://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/jun/11/why-is-jk-rowling-speaking-out-now-on-sex-and-gender-debate|access-date=14 January 2022 |work= [[The Guardian]] }}</ref>{{efn|The UK laws and proposed changes are the [[Gender Recognition Act 2004]], the [[Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill]] and the related [[Equality Act 2010]].{{sfn|Pedersen|2022|loc=Abstract}}{{sfn|Suissa|Sullivan|2021|pp=66–69}}{{sfn|Duggan|2021|loc=PDF pp. 14–15 (160–161)}} }} and her views on [[sexual identity|sex]] and [[gender identity|gender]], have provoked controversy.{{sfn|Duggan|2021|loc=PDF pp. 14–15 (160–161)}} Her statements have divided [[Feminist views on transgender topics|feminists]];<ref name=Kottasova2019>{{cite news |first1= Ivana |last1= Kottasová |first2= Scottie | last2= Andrew|title= J.K. Rowling's 'transphobia' tweet row spotlights a fight between equality campaigners and radical feminists |publisher= [[CNN]] |date= 20 December 2019 |access-date= 29 March 2022 | url= https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/20/uk/jk-rowling-transgender-explainer-intl-gbr/index.html}}</ref><ref name=BBC2020JKRResponds>{{cite news |url= https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-53002557 |publisher= [[BBC News]] |title= JK Rowling responds to trans tweets criticism |date= 11 June 2020 |access-date= 29 March 2022}}</ref><ref>{{cite news | url=https://www.newstatesman.com/international/2020/09/judith-butler-culture-wars-jk-rowling-and-living-anti-intellectual-times | title=Judith Butler on the culture wars, JK Rowling and living in 'anti-intellectual times'|first=Alona |last=Ferber | work=[[New Statesman]] | date=22 September 2020 | access-date=26 March 2021}}</ref> fuelled<!-- This article uses British spelling --> debates on [[freedom of speech]]{{sfn|Pape|2022|pp=229–230}}<ref>{{cite web|title=BBC nominates J.K.Rowling's controversial essay of trans rights for award|url=https://www.dw.com/en/bbc-nominates-jk-rowlings-controversial-essay-on-trans-rights-for-award/a-56014673|website=[[DW News]]|date=22 December 2020|access-date=22 December 2020}}</ref> and [[cancel culture]];{{sfn|Schwirblat|Freberg|Freberg|2022|pp=367–369}} and prompted declarations of [[Transgender rights movement|support for transgender people]] from the literary,<ref>UK, US, Canada, Ireland: {{cite news |last= Flood |first= Alison |date=9 October 2020|title= Stephen King, Margaret Atwood and Roxane Gay champion trans rights in open letter|url= https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/oct/09/stephen-king-margaret-atwood-roxane-gay-champion-trans-rights-open-letter-jk-rowling |work= [[The Guardian]] |access-date= 2 April 2022}}</ref> arts<ref>{{cite magazine|last= Rowley |first= Glenn |title= Artists fire back at J.K. Rowling's anti-trans remarks, share messages in support of the community|url= https://www.billboard.com/culture/pride/artists-fire-back-jk-rowling-anti-trans-remarks-9400386/|magazine= [[Billboard (magazine)|Billboard]]|date= 11 June 2020 |access-date= 7 April 2022}}</ref> and culture sectors.<ref>Culture sector: |
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* [[Universal Destinations & Experiences]], [[Warner Bros.]] and [[Scholastic Corporation]]: {{cite news |last1= Siegel |first1= Tatiana |last2= Abramovitch |first2= Seth |date= 10 June 2020 |title= Universal Parks responds to J.K. Rowling tweets: 'Our core values include diversity, inclusion and respect' |work= [[The Hollywood Reporter]] |url= https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/lifestyle/lifestyle-news/universal-parks-responds-jk-rowling-tweets-core-values-include-diversity-inclusion-respect-1297845/ |access-date= 3 April 2022|ref=none}} |
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* [[Warner Bros. Interactive Entertainment]] president: {{cite news |last= Skrebels |first= Joe |title= WB Interactive president responds to ongoing debate over supporting JK Rowling |date=1 October 2020 |url= https://www.ign.com/articles/wb-interactive-president-responds-to-ongoing-debate-over-supporting-jk-rowling |publisher= [[IGN]] |access-date= 2 April 2022|ref=none}}</ref> |
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When [[Maya Forstater]]'s employment contract with the London branch of the [[Center for Global Development]] was not renewed after she tweeted [[Feminist views on transgender topics#Gender-critical feminism and trans-exclusionary radical feminism|gender-critical views]],{{sfn|Pugh|2020|p=7}}<ref name=Stack2019>{{Cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/19/world/europe/jk-rowling-maya-forstater-transgender.html|title=J.K. Rowling criticized after tweeting support for anti-transgender researcher|last=Stack|first=Liam|date=19 December 2019|work=[[The New York Times]]|access-date=13 June 2020| url-access=registration|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200613012737/https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/19/world/europe/jk-rowling-maya-forstater-transgender.html|archive-date=13 June 2020|url-status=live}}</ref> Rowling responded in December 2019 with a tweet that [[transgender]] people should live their lives as they pleased in "peace and security", but questioned women being "force[d] out of their jobs for stating that sex is real".<ref name=Stack2019/>{{efn|A tribunal ruled in 2021 that Forstater's gender-critical views were protected under the 2010 UK [[Equality Act 2010|Equality Act]].<ref name=Faulkner2021>{{cite news |first= Doug |last= Faulkner |url= https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-57426579 |title= Maya Forstater: woman wins tribunal appeal over transgender tweets |publisher= [[BBC News]] |date= 10 June 2021 |access-date= 26 March 2022}}</ref><ref name=Siddique2021>{{cite news |first= Haroon |last= Siddique |date= 10 June 2021 |title= Gender-critical views are a protected belief, appeal tribunal rules|url= https://www.theguardian.com/law/2021/jun/10/gender-critical-views-protected-belief-appeal-tribunal-rules-maya-forstater |work= [[The Guardian]] |access-date= 26 March 2022}}</ref> In July 2022, a new tribunal decision was published (''[[Forstater v Center for Global Development Europe]]'') ruling that Forstater had suffered direct discrimination from her employer.<ref>{{cite web |title=Maya Forstater: Woman discriminated against over trans tweets, tribunal rules|date=6 July 2022 |url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-62061929 |publisher=BBC |access-date=6 July 2022}}</ref>}} In another controversial tweet in June 2020,<ref name=Petter2020>{{Cite web|last= Petter|first=Olivia|date=17 September 2020|title=Mermaids writes open letter to JK Rowling following her recent comments on trans people|url=https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/mermaids-jk-rowling-transphobia-transgender-sexual-abuse-domestic-letter-a9565176.html|access-date=26 March 2022|work=[[The Independent]] |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200615235531/https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/mermaids-jk-rowling-transphobia-transgender-sexual-abuse-domestic-letter-a9565176.html |archive-date=15 June 2020}}</ref> Rowling mocked an article for using the phrase "[[people who menstruate]]",<ref name=Gross2020>{{Cite news|last=Gross|first=Jenny|date=7 June 2020|title=Daniel Radcliffe criticizes J.K. Rowling's anti-transgender tweets|work=[[The New York Times]]|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/07/arts/Jk-Rowling-controversy.html |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200607221400/https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/07/arts/Jk-Rowling-controversy.html |archive-date=7 June 2020 |url-access=subscription |url-status=live|access-date=6 January 2022 }}</ref> and tweeted that [[women's rights]] and "lived reality" would be "erased" if "sex isn't real".{{sfn|Duggan|2021|loc=PDF pp. 14–15}}<ref>{{cite magazine|url=https://variety.com/2020/film/news/jk-rowling-transphobic-tweets-controversy-1234627081/|title=J.K. Rowling gets backlash over anti-trans tweets|last=Moreau|first=Jordan|magazine=[[Variety (magazine)|Variety]]|date=6 June 2020|access-date=13 June 2020|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200607005447/https://variety.com/2020/film/news/jk-rowling-transphobic-tweets-controversy-1234627081/|archive-date=7 June 2020|url-status=live}}</ref> |
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There is no synthesis and no material not found in the articles. Are you suggesting two seperate headings, '''Politics in Harry Potter''' and '''Moral significance of Harry Potter'''? I thought that two seperate paragraphs would make it clear that these are independant ideas. Please be more clear. [[User:Libertycookies|Libertycookies]] 16:09, 30 June 2007 (UTC) |
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[[LGBT]] charities and leading actors of the [[Wizarding World]] franchise condemned Rowling's comments;<ref name=Waterson2020>{{Cite news|last= Waterson |first= Jim|title= Children's news website apologises to JK Rowling over trans tweet row|url= https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jul/23/childrens-news-website-apologises-jk-rowling-trans-tweet-day|date= 23 July 2020 |access-date=26 March 2022|work=[[The Guardian]] |quote= Rowling's comments on gender were condemned by LGBT charities and the leading stars of her Harry Potter film franchise.}}</ref><ref name=Lang2020>{{cite magazine |last=Lang |first=Brent |title= Eddie Redmayne criticizes J.K. Rowling's anti-trans tweets |date= 10 June 2020 |url= https://variety.com/2020/film/news/eddie-redmayne-jk-rowling-anti-trans-tweets-harry-potter-fantastic-beasts-1234630226/ |magazine= [[Variety (magazine)|Variety]]|access-date=28 March 2022 |quote= Eddie Redmayne, star of the ''Fantastic Beasts'' franchise, is speaking out against J.K. Rowling's anti-trans tweets, as the controversy surrounding the author and her beliefs continues to swirl.}}</ref>{{efn| [[Daniel Radcliffe]], [[Emma Watson]], [[Rupert Grint]],<ref name= Hibberd2021/> [[Eddie Redmayne]]<ref name=Lang2020/> and others expressed support for the transgender community in reaction to Rowling's comments;<ref>{{cite magazine |first= Maureen |last= Lenker|title= Every Harry Potter actor who's spoken out against J.K. Rowling's controversial trans comments |date= 10 June 2020 |access-date= 1 April 2022 |magazine= [[Entertainment Weekly]]|url=https://ew.com/movies/every-harry-potter-actor-whos-spoken-out-against-j-k-rowlings-controversial-transgender-comments/ }}</ref><ref>{{cite news |first= Maggie |last= Baska|title= Stephen Fry defends 'friendship' with JK Rowling: 'I'm sorry that people are upset' |date= 20 May 2021 |url= https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2021/05/20/stephen-fry-jk-rowling-friend-harry-potter-jordan-b-peterson-podcast-trans/ |publisher= [[PinkNews]] |access-date= 29 March 2022}}</ref> [[Helena Bonham Carter]],<ref name=Evans2022> {{cite news |first= Greg |last= Evans |url= https://deadline.com/2022/11/helena-bonham-carter-johnny-depp-j-k-rowling-1235182523/ |title= Helena Bonham Carter says Johnny Depp 'completely vindicated' in defamation trial, and J.K. Rowling 'hounded' for transgender stance |work= [[Deadline Hollywood]] |access-date= 18 December 2022}}</ref> [[Robbie Coltrane]],<ref>{{cite news |last= Yasharoff |first= Hannah |title= How the 'Harry Potter' reunion addresses author J.K. Rowling's anti-trans controversy |date= 30 December 2021|url= https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/movies/2021/12/30/harry-potter-return-hogwarts-20th-reunion-emma-watson-jk-rowling-controversy/9042955002/ |work= [[USA Today]] |access-date= 2 April 2022}}</ref> and [[Ralph Fiennes]] supported Rowling.<ref name= Hibberd2021>{{cite news |first= James |last= Hibberd |url= https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/ralph-fiennes-defends-j-k-rowling-amid-trans-controversy-says-backlash-is-disturbing-4151944/ |title= Ralph Fiennes defends J.K. rowling amid trans controversy, says backlash is 'disturbing' |date= 17 March 2021 |access-date=26 March 2022 |work= [[The Hollywood Reporter]]}}</ref>}} [[GLAAD]] called them "cruel" and "inaccurate".<ref name= Yasharoff2020> {{cite news |last= Yasharoff |first=Hannah|url= https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/celebrities/2020/06/07/j-k-rowling-harry-potter-author-slammed-transphobic-comments/3169833001/ |title= J.K. Rowling reveals she's a sexual assault survivor; Emma Watson reacts to trans comments |work= [[USA Today]] |date= 10 June 2020 |access-date= 27 March 2022}}</ref> Rowling responded with an essay on her website<ref name=RowlingReasons>{{cite web|title=J.K. Rowling writes about her reasons for speaking out on sex and gender issues |url=https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/ |publisher=JK Rowling |date=10 June 2020 |access-date=10 June 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200610182056/https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/ |archive-date=10 June 2020 |url-status=live}}</ref> in which she stated that her views on women's rights were informed by her experience as a survivor of domestic abuse and [[sexual assault]].<ref name=Shirbon2020>{{cite news |last1=Shirbon |first1=Estelle |title=J.K. Rowling reveals past abuse and defends right to speak on trans issues |url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-rowling/j-k-rowling-reveals-past-abuse-and-defends-right-to-speak-on-trans-issues-idUSKBN23H2XI |publisher=[[Reuters]] |date=10 June 2020 |access-date=13 June 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200611200348/https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-rowling/j-k-rowling-reveals-past-abuse-and-defends-right-to-speak-on-trans-issues-idUSKBN23H2XI |archive-date=11 June 2020 |url-status=live}}</ref> While affirming that "the majority of trans-identified people not only pose zero threat to others, but are vulnerable ... Trans people need and deserve protection", she believed that it would be unsafe to allow "any man who believes or feels he's a woman" into bathrooms or changing rooms.<ref name= Shirbon2020/><ref>{{cite news |last1=Gonzalez |first1=Sandra |title=J.K. Rowling explains her gender identity views in essay amid backlash |url=https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/10/entertainment/jk-rowling/index.html |access-date=16 September 2023 |work=[[CNN]] |date=10 June 2020}}</ref><ref>{{cite news |last1=Garrand |first1=Danielle |title=J.K. Rowling defends herself after accusations of making "anti-trans" comments on Twitter |url=https://www.cbsnews.com/news/j-k-rowling-defends-anti-trans-comments-twitter/ |access-date=16 September 2023 |work=[[CBS News]] |date=11 June 2020}}</ref> Writing of her own experiences with [[sexism]] and [[misogyny]],<ref>{{cite news |first= Sian |last= Cain |date= 11 June 2020 |title= JK Rowling reveals she is survivor of domestic abuse and sexual assault |url= https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/jun/10/jk-rowling-says-survivor-of-domestic-abuse-sexual-assault |work= [[The Guardian]] |access-date= 29 March 2022}}</ref> she wondered if the "allure of escaping womanhood" would have led her to [[Gender transitioning|transition]] if she had been born later, and said that trans activism was "seeking to erode 'woman' as a political and biological class".<ref name=DAlessandro2020>{{cite news |last=D'Alessandro |first=Anthony |title=J.K. Rowling defends trans statements in lengthy essay, reveals she's a sexual assault survivor & says 'trans people need and deserve protection' |url=https://deadline.com/2020/06/j-k-rowling-defends-trans-statements-essay-1202955524/ |access-date=5 January 2022 |publisher=[[Deadline Hollywood]] |date=10 June 2020}}</ref> |
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:I tell you this for the ''nth'' time: |
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:* Do not editorialize |
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:* Stay close to the sources |
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:* Do not frame quotes in a specific POV |
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: [[User:Jossi|≈ jossi ≈]] <small>[[User_talk:Jossi|(talk)]]</small> 16:51, 30 June 2007 (UTC) |
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Rowling's statements – beginning in 2017{{sfn|Duggan|2021|loc=PDF pp. 14–15 (160–161)}}<ref name= Jacobs2023>{{cite news |last= Jacobs |first= Julia |title= Hogwarts legacy can't cast aside debate over J. K. Rowling |url= https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/09/arts/hogwarts-legacy-jk-rowling.html |date= 9 February 2023 |work = [[The New York Times]] |access-date= 14 July 2023}}</ref><ref name= Spangler2023>{{cite news |last= Spangler|first= Todd |title= J.K. Rowling addresses backlash to her anti-trans comments in new podcast: 'I never set out to upset anyone' |url= https://variety.com/2023/digital/news/jk-rowling-anti-trans-comments-podcast-witch-trials-1235522301/ |date= 14 February 2023|work= [[Variety (magazine)|Variety]]|access-date= 14 July 2023}}</ref> – have been called transphobic,<ref name= Breznican2023>{{cite news |last= Breznican |first= Anthony |title= J.K. Rowling will oversee a new streaming ''Harry Potter'' series |url= https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2023/04/jk-rowling-harry-potter-series|date= 12 April 2023 |work= [[Vanity Fair (magazine)|Vanity Fair]] |access-date= 14 July 2023}}</ref><ref name=Rosenblatt2020>{{Cite web|last = Rosenblatt| first =Kalhan |title=J.K. Rowling doubles down in what some critics call a 'transphobic manifesto' |url= https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/j-k-rowling-doubles-down-what-some-critics-call-transphobic-n1229351|date= 10 June 2020 |access-date=19 January 2022|publisher=[[NBC News]] }}</ref> and she has been referred to as a [[TERF (acronym)|TERF]], a "trans-exclusionary radical feminist".<ref name= Rosenblatt2020/>{{sfn|Steinfeld|2020|pp=34–35}}{{sfn|Schwirblat|Freberg|Freberg|2022|pp=367–368}} She has rejected these characterisations and the notion that she holds animosity towards transgender people, saying that her viewpoint has been misunderstood.<ref name=RowlingReasons/><ref name= Breznican2023/><ref name= Spangler2023/> Criticism of Rowling's views has come from the ''Harry Potter'' fansites [[MuggleNet]] and [[The Leaky Cauldron (website)|The Leaky Cauldron]];<ref name=FanSites>{{cite news|url=https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/03/harry-potter-fan-sites-distance-themselves-from-jk-rowling-over-transgender-rights|title=Harry Potter fan sites distance themselves from JK Rowling over transgender rights|publisher=[[Reuters]]|work=[[The Guardian]]|date=3 July 2020|access-date=3 July 2020|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200703011204/https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/03/harry-potter-fan-sites-distance-themselves-from-jk-rowling-over-transgender-rights|archive-date=3 July 2020|url-status=live}}</ref> and the charities [[Mermaids (charity)|Mermaids]],<ref name=Petter2020/> [[Stonewall (charity)|Stonewall]],<ref>{{cite news | url=https://www.newstatesman.com/long-reads/2021/11/the-battle-for-stonewall-the-lgbt-charity-and-the-uks-gender-wars | title=The battle for Stonewall: the LGBT charity and the UK's gender wars | work=[[New Statesman]]|first=Gaby |last=Hinsliff|date=3 November 2021 | access-date=24 November 2021}}</ref> and [[Human Rights Campaign]].<ref>{{cite news |first= Elise |last= Brisco |title=Dave Chappelle says he's 'Team TERF,' defends J.K. Rowling in new Netflix comedy special|url= https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/tv/2021/10/05/dave-chappelle-terf-defends-j-k-rowling-netflix-special/6002017001/ |work= [[USA Today]] |date= 8 October 2021|access-date= 29 March 2022}}</ref> After [[Kerry Kennedy]] expressed "profound disappointment" in her views, Rowling returned the [[Ripple of Hope Award]] given to her by the Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights organisation.<ref name=RFKAward>{{cite news |last=Flood|first=Alison |url= https://amp.theguardian.com/books/2020/aug/28/jk-rowling-robert-f-kennedy-human-rights-award-trans-views|title=JK Rowling returns human rights award to group that denounces her trans views |work=[[The Guardian]]|date=28 August 2020|access-date=28 August 2020}}</ref> |
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::Those quotes are precise. Can't be any closer. Are you suggesting that the title should be "Moral significance and Politics of Harry Potter according to J. K. Rowling"? To be sure, other people have interpreted her work as promoting conservative values and witchcraft, which might be quite valid to those people. [[User:Libertycookies|Libertycookies]] 16:56, 30 June 2007 (UTC) |
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After the [[Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Act 2021]] had come into force in April 2024, Rowling, who resides in Edinburgh, tested the law by posting on [[Twitter|X]] a list of transgender women, and wrote that they were "men, every last one of them".<ref>{{Cite web|url=https://deadline.com/2024/04/jk-rowling-scotland-hate-crime-law-1235872981/|title=J.K. Rowling Mocks Trans Women To Defy Scotland’s New Hate Crime Law: “I Look Forward To Being Arrested”|website=deadline.com|access-date=3 April 2024|archive-date=1 April 2024|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20240401190451/https://deadline.com/2024/04/jk-rowling-scotland-hate-crime-law-1235872981/|url-status=live}}</ref> [[Police Scotland]] stated it had not received any complaints over the posts<ref>{{Cite news |last=Cook |first=James |date=1 April 2024 |title=JK Rowling in ‘arrest me’ challenge over hate crime law |url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c51j64lk2l8o |work=BBC}}</ref> and that "no action [would] be taken" as they were not illegal.<ref>{{Cite news |last=Bonar |first=Megan |date=2024-04-02 |title=JK Rowling hate law posts not criminal, police say |url=https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-68712471 |access-date=2024-04-02 |work=[[BBC News]] |language=en-GB}}</ref><ref>{{Cite news |last=Learmonth |first=Andrew |date=2024-04-03 |title=Police Scotland will not log 'hate incident' against Rowling or FM |url=https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/24229707.police-scotland-will-not-log-hate-incident-jk-rowling/?ref=twtrec |access-date=2024-04-03 |work=[[The Herald (Scotland)]] |language=en-GB}}</ref> |
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:::I assume that silence is acceptance, and there are no further objections to adding the material? [[User:Libertycookies|Libertycookies]] 04:51, 2 July 2007 (UTC) |
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{{Main|Political views of J. K. Rowling#Transgender rights}} |
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Rowling's views on [[sexual identity|sex]] and [[gender identity|gender]], have provoked controversy.{{sfn|Duggan|2021|loc=PDF pp. 14–15 (160–161)}} When [[Maya Forstater]]'s employment contract with the London branch of the [[Center for Global Development]] was not renewed after she tweeted [[Feminist views on transgender topics#Gender-critical feminism and trans-exclusionary radical feminism|gender-critical views]],{{sfn|Pugh|2020|p=7}}<ref name=Stack2019>{{Cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/19/world/europe/jk-rowling-maya-forstater-transgender.html|title=J.K. Rowling criticized after tweeting support for anti-transgender researcher|last=Stack|first=Liam|date=19 December 2019|work=[[The New York Times]]|access-date=13 June 2020| url-access=registration|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200613012737/https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/19/world/europe/jk-rowling-maya-forstater-transgender.html|archive-date=13 June 2020|url-status=live}}</ref> Rowling responded in December 2019 with a [[Twitter|tweet]] that [[transgender]] people should live in "peace and security", but questioned women being "force[d] out of their jobs for stating that sex is real".<ref name=Stack2019/>{{efn|A tribunal ruled in 2021 that Forstater's gender-critical views were protected under the 2010 UK [[Equality Act 2010|Equality Act]].<ref name=Faulkner2021>{{cite news |first= Doug |last= Faulkner |url= https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-57426579 |title= Maya Forstater: woman wins tribunal appeal over transgender tweets |publisher= [[BBC News]] |date= 10 June 2021 |access-date= 26 March 2022}}</ref><ref name=Siddique2021>{{cite news |first= Haroon |last= Siddique |date= 10 June 2021 |title= Gender-critical views are a protected belief, appeal tribunal rules|url= https://www.theguardian.com/law/2021/jun/10/gender-critical-views-protected-belief-appeal-tribunal-rules-maya-forstater |work= [[The Guardian]] |access-date= 26 March 2022}}</ref> In July 2022, a new tribunal decision was published (''[[Forstater v Center for Global Development Europe]]'') ruling that Forstater had suffered direct discrimination from her employer.<ref>{{cite web |title=Maya Forstater: Woman discriminated against over trans tweets, tribunal rules|date=6 July 2022 |url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-62061929 |publisher=BBC |access-date=6 July 2022}}</ref>}} ''Harry Potter'' scholar Lana Whited writes that in the next six months "Rowling herself fanned the flames as she became increasingly vocal and, in a few cases, flippant about gender identity."{{sfn|Whited|2024|p=6}} In another tweet in June 2020,{{sfn|Whited|2024|p=6}} Rowling mocked the phrase "[[people who menstruate]]",<ref name=Gross2020>{{Cite news|last=Gross|first=Jenny|date=7 June 2020|title=Daniel Radcliffe criticizes J.K. Rowling's anti-transgender tweets|work=[[The New York Times]]|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/07/arts/Jk-Rowling-controversy.html |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200607221400/https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/07/arts/Jk-Rowling-controversy.html |archive-date=7 June 2020 |url-access=subscription |url-status=live|access-date=6 January 2022 }}</ref> and tweeted that [[women's rights]] and "lived reality" would be "erased" if "sex isn't real".{{sfn|Duggan|2021|loc=PDF pp. 14–15}}{{sfn|Pugh|2020|p=7}} Potter scholar Tolanda Henderson, self-described as "gender-queer...non-binary transgender",{{sfn|Henderson|2022|p=223}} writes the June 2020 tweet revealed Rowling's "stance that invalidates nonbinary people like me".{{sfn|Henderson|2022|p=224}} |
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Her statements have shocked Rowling fans;{{sfn|Whited|2024|p=6}} divided [[Feminist views on transgender topics|feminists]];<ref name=Kottasova2019>{{cite news |first1= Ivana |last1= Kottasová |first2= Scottie | last2= Andrew|title= J.K. Rowling's 'transphobia' tweet row spotlights a fight between equality campaigners and radical feminists |publisher= [[CNN]] |date= 20 December 2019 |access-date= 29 March 2022 | url= https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/20/uk/jk-rowling-transgender-explainer-intl-gbr/index.html}}</ref><ref name=BBC2020JKRResponds>{{cite news |url= https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-53002557 |publisher= [[BBC News]] |title= JK Rowling responds to trans tweets criticism |date= 11 June 2020 |access-date= 29 March 2022}}</ref><ref>{{cite news | url=https://www.newstatesman.com/international/2020/09/judith-butler-culture-wars-jk-rowling-and-living-anti-intellectual-times | title=Judith Butler on the culture wars, JK Rowling and living in 'anti-intellectual times'|first=Alona |last=Ferber | work=[[New Statesman]] | date=22 September 2020 | access-date=26 March 2021}}</ref> fuelled<!-- This article uses British spelling --> debates on [[freedom of speech]]{{sfn|Pape|2022|pp=229–230}}<ref>{{cite web|title=BBC nominates J.K.Rowling's controversial essay of trans rights for award|url=https://www.dw.com/en/bbc-nominates-jk-rowlings-controversial-essay-on-trans-rights-for-award/a-56014673|website=[[DW News]]|date=22 December 2020|access-date=22 December 2020}}</ref> and [[cancel culture]];{{sfn|Schwirblat|Freberg|Freberg|2022|pp=367–369}} and prompted declarations of [[Transgender rights movement|support for transgender people]] from the literary,<ref>UK, US, Canada, Ireland: {{cite news |last= Flood |first= Alison |date=9 October 2020|title= Stephen King, Margaret Atwood and Roxane Gay champion trans rights in open letter|url= https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/oct/09/stephen-king-margaret-atwood-roxane-gay-champion-trans-rights-open-letter-jk-rowling |work= [[The Guardian]] |access-date= 2 April 2022}}</ref> arts<ref>{{cite magazine|last= Rowley |first= Glenn |title= Artists fire back at J.K. Rowling's anti-trans remarks, share messages in support of the community|url= https://www.billboard.com/culture/pride/artists-fire-back-jk-rowling-anti-trans-remarks-9400386/|magazine= [[Billboard (magazine)|Billboard]]|date= 11 June 2020 |access-date= 7 April 2022}}</ref> and culture sectors.<ref>Culture sector: |
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::::Made quotes more direct and posted. [[User:Libertycookies|Libertycookies]] 14:40, 4 July 2007 (UTC) |
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* [[Universal Destinations & Experiences]], [[Warner Bros.]] and [[Scholastic Corporation]]: {{cite news |last1= Siegel |first1= Tatiana |last2= Abramovitch |first2= Seth |date= 10 June 2020 |title= Universal Parks responds to J.K. Rowling tweets: 'Our core values include diversity, inclusion and respect' |work= [[The Hollywood Reporter]] |url= https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/lifestyle/lifestyle-news/universal-parks-responds-jk-rowling-tweets-core-values-include-diversity-inclusion-respect-1297845/ |access-date= 3 April 2022|ref=none}} |
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* [[Warner Bros. Interactive Entertainment]] president: {{cite news |last= Skrebels |first= Joe |title= WB Interactive president responds to ongoing debate over supporting JK Rowling |date=1 October 2020 |url= https://www.ign.com/articles/wb-interactive-president-responds-to-ongoing-debate-over-supporting-jk-rowling |publisher= [[IGN]] |access-date= 2 April 2022|ref=none}}</ref> Rowling's statements{{sfn|Duggan|2021|loc=PDF pp. 14–15 (160–161)}}<ref name= Jacobs2023>{{cite news |last= Jacobs |first= Julia |title= Hogwarts legacy can't cast aside debate over J. K. Rowling |url= https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/09/arts/hogwarts-legacy-jk-rowling.html |date= 9 February 2023 |work = [[The New York Times]] |access-date= 14 July 2023}}</ref><ref name= Spangler2023>{{cite news |last= Spangler|first= Todd |title= J.K. Rowling addresses backlash to her anti-trans comments in new podcast: 'I never set out to upset anyone' |url= https://variety.com/2023/digital/news/jk-rowling-anti-trans-comments-podcast-witch-trials-1235522301/ |date= 14 February 2023|work= [[Variety (magazine)|Variety]]|access-date= 14 July 2023}}</ref> – have been called transphobic,<ref name= Breznican2023>{{cite news |last= Breznican |first= Anthony |title= J.K. Rowling will oversee a new streaming ''Harry Potter'' series |url= https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2023/04/jk-rowling-harry-potter-series|date= 12 April 2023 |work= [[Vanity Fair (magazine)|Vanity Fair]] |access-date= 14 July 2023}}</ref><ref name=Rosenblatt2020>{{Cite web|last = Rosenblatt| first =Kalhan |title=J.K. Rowling doubles down in what some critics call a 'transphobic manifesto' |url= https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/j-k-rowling-doubles-down-what-some-critics-call-transphobic-n1229351|date= 10 June 2020 |access-date=19 January 2022|publisher=[[NBC News]] }}</ref> and she has been referred to as a [[TERF (acronym)|TERF]], a "trans-exclusionary radical feminist".<ref name= Rosenblatt2020/>{{sfn|Steinfeld|2020|pp=34–35}}{{sfn|Schwirblat|Freberg|Freberg|2022|pp=367–368}} Criticism of Rowling's views has come from the ''Harry Potter'' fansites [[MuggleNet]] and [[The Leaky Cauldron (website)|The Leaky Cauldron]];{{sfn|Henderson|2022|p=224}} and the charities [[Mermaids (charity)|Mermaids]],<ref name=Petter2020/> [[Stonewall (charity)|Stonewall]],<ref>{{cite news | url=https://www.newstatesman.com/long-reads/2021/11/the-battle-for-stonewall-the-lgbt-charity-and-the-uks-gender-wars | title=The battle for Stonewall: the LGBT charity and the UK's gender wars | work=[[New Statesman]]|first=Gaby |last=Hinsliff|date=3 November 2021 | access-date=24 November 2021}}</ref> and [[Human Rights Campaign]].<ref>{{cite news |first= Elise |last= Brisco |title=Dave Chappelle says he's 'Team TERF,' defends J.K. Rowling in new Netflix comedy special|url= https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/tv/2021/10/05/dave-chappelle-terf-defends-j-k-rowling-netflix-special/6002017001/ |work= [[USA Today]] |date= 8 October 2021|access-date= 29 March 2022}}</ref> After [[Kerry Kennedy]] expressed "profound disappointment" in her views, Rowling returned the [[Ripple of Hope Award]] given to her by the Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights organisation.<ref name=RFKAward>{{cite news |last=Flood|first=Alison |url= https://amp.theguardian.com/books/2020/aug/28/jk-rowling-robert-f-kennedy-human-rights-award-trans-views|title=JK Rowling returns human rights award to group that denounces her trans views |work=[[The Guardian]]|date=28 August 2020|access-date=28 August 2020}}</ref> [[LGBT]] charities and leading actors of the [[Wizarding World]] franchise condemned Rowling's comments;<ref name=Waterson2020>{{Cite news|last= Waterson |first= Jim|title= Children's news website apologises to JK Rowling over trans tweet row|url= https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jul/23/childrens-news-website-apologises-jk-rowling-trans-tweet-day|date= 23 July 2020 |access-date=26 March 2022|work=[[The Guardian]] |quote= Rowling's comments on gender were condemned by LGBT charities and the leading stars of her Harry Potter film franchise.}}</ref><ref name=Lang2020>{{cite magazine |last=Lang |first=Brent |title= Eddie Redmayne criticizes J.K. Rowling's anti-trans tweets |date= 10 June 2020 |url= https://variety.com/2020/film/news/eddie-redmayne-jk-rowling-anti-trans-tweets-harry-potter-fantastic-beasts-1234630226/ |magazine= [[Variety (magazine)|Variety]]|access-date=28 March 2022 |quote= Eddie Redmayne, star of the ''Fantastic Beasts'' franchise, is speaking out against J.K. Rowling's anti-trans tweets, as the controversy surrounding the author and her beliefs continues to swirl.}}</ref>{{efn| [[Daniel Radcliffe]], [[Emma Watson]], [[Rupert Grint]],<ref name= Hibberd2021/> [[Eddie Redmayne]]<ref name=Lang2020/> and others expressed support for the transgender community in reaction to Rowling's comments;<ref>{{cite magazine |first= Maureen |last= Lenker|title= Every Harry Potter actor who's spoken out against J.K. Rowling's controversial trans comments |date= 10 June 2020 |access-date= 1 April 2022 |magazine= [[Entertainment Weekly]]|url=https://ew.com/movies/every-harry-potter-actor-whos-spoken-out-against-j-k-rowlings-controversial-transgender-comments/ }}</ref><ref>{{cite news |first= Maggie |last= Baska|title= Stephen Fry defends 'friendship' with JK Rowling: 'I'm sorry that people are upset' |date= 20 May 2021 |url= https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2021/05/20/stephen-fry-jk-rowling-friend-harry-potter-jordan-b-peterson-podcast-trans/ |publisher= [[PinkNews]] |access-date= 29 March 2022}}</ref> [[Helena Bonham Carter]],<ref name=Evans2022> {{cite news |first= Greg |last= Evans |url= https://deadline.com/2022/11/helena-bonham-carter-johnny-depp-j-k-rowling-1235182523/ |title= Helena Bonham Carter says Johnny Depp 'completely vindicated' in defamation trial, and J.K. Rowling 'hounded' for transgender stance |work= [[Deadline Hollywood]] |access-date= 18 December 2022}}</ref> [[Robbie Coltrane]],<ref>{{cite news |last= Yasharoff |first= Hannah |title= How the 'Harry Potter' reunion addresses author J.K. Rowling's anti-trans controversy |date= 30 December 2021|url= https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/movies/2021/12/30/harry-potter-return-hogwarts-20th-reunion-emma-watson-jk-rowling-controversy/9042955002/ |work= [[USA Today]] |access-date= 2 April 2022}}</ref> and [[Ralph Fiennes]] supported Rowling.<ref name= Hibberd2021>{{cite news |first= James |last= Hibberd |url= https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/ralph-fiennes-defends-j-k-rowling-amid-trans-controversy-says-backlash-is-disturbing-4151944/ |title= Ralph Fiennes defends J.K. rowling amid trans controversy, says backlash is 'disturbing' |date= 17 March 2021 |access-date=26 March 2022 |work= [[The Hollywood Reporter]]}}</ref>}} [[GLAAD]] called them "cruel" and "inaccurate".<ref name= Yasharoff2020> {{cite news |last= Yasharoff |first=Hannah|url= https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/celebrities/2020/06/07/j-k-rowling-harry-potter-author-slammed-transphobic-comments/3169833001/ |title= J.K. Rowling reveals she's a sexual assault survivor; Emma Watson reacts to trans comments |work= [[USA Today]] |date= 10 June 2020 |access-date= 27 March 2022}}</ref> |
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She rejected these characterisations and the notion that she is transphobic,<ref name=RowlingReasons/><ref name= Breznican2023/> in an essay she posted to her website on June 10, 2020,<ref name=RowlingReasons>{{cite web|title=J.K. Rowling writes about her reasons for speaking out on sex and gender issues |url=https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/ |publisher=JK Rowling |date=10 June 2020 |access-date=10 June 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200610182056/https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/ |archive-date=10 June 2020 |url-status=live}}</ref> where she stated that her views on women's rights were informed by her experience as a survivor of domestic abuse and [[sexual assault]].<ref name=Shirbon2020>{{cite news |last1=Shirbon |first1=Estelle |title=J.K. Rowling reveals past abuse and defends right to speak on trans issues |url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-rowling/j-k-rowling-reveals-past-abuse-and-defends-right-to-speak-on-trans-issues-idUSKBN23H2XI |publisher=[[Reuters]] |date=10 June 2020 |access-date=13 June 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200611200348/https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-rowling/j-k-rowling-reveals-past-abuse-and-defends-right-to-speak-on-trans-issues-idUSKBN23H2XI |archive-date=11 June 2020 |url-status=live}}</ref> While affirming that "the majority of trans-identified people not only pose zero threat to others, but are vulnerable ... Trans people need and deserve protection",<ref name= Shirbon2020/><ref>{{cite news |last1=Gonzalez |first1=Sandra |title=J.K. Rowling explains her gender identity views in essay amid backlash |url=https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/10/entertainment/jk-rowling/index.html |access-date=16 September 2023 |work=[[CNN]] |date=10 June 2020}}</ref><ref>{{cite news |last1=Garrand |first1=Danielle |title=J.K. Rowling defends herself after accusations of making "anti-trans" comments on Twitter |url=https://www.cbsnews.com/news/j-k-rowling-defends-anti-trans-comments-twitter/ |access-date=16 September 2023 |work=[[CBS News]] |date=11 June 2020}}</ref> she believes that public spaces, such as restrooms, should only be "same-gender space".{{sfn|Whited|2024|pp=6–7}} Of her own experiences with [[sexism]] and [[misogyny]],<ref>{{cite news |first= Sian |last= Cain |date= 11 June 2020 |title= JK Rowling reveals she is survivor of domestic abuse and sexual assault |url= https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/jun/10/jk-rowling-says-survivor-of-domestic-abuse-sexual-assault |work= [[The Guardian]] |access-date= 29 March 2022}}</ref> she asks if the "allure of escaping womanhood" would have led her to [[Gender transitioning|transition]] had she been born later, and said that trans activism was "seeking to erode 'woman' as a political and biological class".<ref name=DAlessandro2020>{{cite news |last=D'Alessandro |first=Anthony |title=J.K. Rowling defends trans statements in lengthy essay, reveals she's a sexual assault survivor & says 'trans people need and deserve protection' |url=https://deadline.com/2020/06/j-k-rowling-defends-trans-statements-essay-1202955524/ |access-date=5 January 2022 |publisher=[[Deadline Hollywood]] |date=10 June 2020}}</ref> Whited refers it to as a "public manifesto", which was the "final straw" for fans.{{sfn|Whited|2024|pp=6–7}} Literary scholars suggest that French literary critic [[Roland Barthes]] concept of "[[The Death of the Author]]" (to separate the author from the text) applies to Rowling;{{sfn|Whited|2024|pp=9–10}} Henderson believes the situation does not apply because Rowling "will not shut up" and that "trans-exclusionary themes [are] baked right into the text".{{sfn|Henderson|2022|p=224}} |
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== How to move forward. == |
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|} |
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{{cot|Sources}} |
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Right I think it's fair to say that things on this article (particularly the talk page) have gotten ever so slightly heated lately. Heck, I'm even willing to concede that my restraint hasn't been perfect of late so how to move on? Well as a start I've archived the latest batch of 'debate' to the talk page barring the current discussions so let's try and start with a clean slate. I propose: |
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{{reflist-talk}} |
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{{notelist-talk}} |
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{{cob}} |
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==== Discussion of first draft ==== |
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* We stop the debate at AfD and just wait for the article to be deleted. I think [[User:Libertycookies|Libertycookies]] understands that we're not trying to kill his edits - just make sure that they end up in the right article and without [[WP:POVFORK|POVForking]]. |
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I've (partially) fixed the source listings and the cot cob, and archived some of the long page for starting over (leaving a hat at the top of the new section), but there is still one glitch in the Whited source that will need to be repaired if we cite more than one chapter in the book. As an example, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=J._K._Rowling&oldid=1218802285#Works_cited see here how we cited multiple chapters in Anatol, and in Berndt], but I am out of time to do that, and it's a lot of typing with sutures in my hand. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 20:16, 19 April 2024 (UTC) |
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* I'd like to reiterate that I do think that the topics [[User:Libertycookies|Libertycookies]] wishes to discuss are valid topics and would be a valued contribution to the article but they need to be presented in a way that is fair and balanced and does not violate [[WP:OR]], [[WP:SYNTH]], [[WP:BLP]] and [[WP:NPOV]]. I know [[User:Libertycookies|Libertycookies]] sometimes doesn't see why his content violates these so perhaps we can be better at explaining why rather than just shooting it all down? But that must be dependent on my next point. |
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:If the draft sucks it's not relevant and so far only the intro from Whited is used, and Henderson from the other book. I tried with the Anatol templates (harvc) but got lots of errors and either I spend time with text/s or with templates & decided text gets the limited time I have. Thanks a ton for fixing my many many errors - especially with a hand wound. [[User:Victoriaearle|Victoria]] ([[User talk:Victoriaearle|tk]]) 20:44, 19 April 2024 (UTC) |
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* I'd like to ask [[User:Libertycookies|Libertycookies]] to agree that any proposed edits on these topics should be constructed here first as he has been doing of late but I would also like to ask that he wait for consensus to be reached here before moving the content to the article. I understand his concerns about delay tactics on other forums but I cannot emphasise enough that this is honestly not what we're trying to do here. |
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::We can fix the trivialities later ... thanks for doing the REAL work !!! [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 20:48, 19 April 2024 (UTC) |
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* Finally, no matter how annoying/frustrating this gets let's all try not to take/make things personal. Particularly not entering into 'he said, she said' arguments into which many of us have regrettably slipped. |
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:::Thank you {{u|SandyGeorgia|Sandy}} for bailing me out. When I'm less screen blind I'll try to figure out why those harvc templates don't work. I thought it might work better once it's all in mainspace. [[User:Victoriaearle|Victoria]] ([[User talk:Victoriaearle|tk]]) 18:53, 21 April 2024 (UTC) |
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*I feel the sequence of ideas should be: Say her views are controversial -- say in what way they're controversial -- then give the specific examples -- and then give Rowling's rebuttals. I'd also slightly simplify (e.g. "referred to as"--> "called") and somewhat reduce the number of semicolons. For a worked example of how I'd do this, please see my sandbox [[User:S Marshall/sandbox#Transgender people|here]].—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 16:56, 21 April 2024 (UTC) |
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**Yep, that's exactly how it should be organized. I knew I'd lost perspective at some point & needed extra eyes. Thanks so much {{u|S Marshall}} for redoing it. We can probably paste that in as the next suggested draft. [[User:Victoriaearle|Victoria]] ([[User talk:Victoriaearle|tk]]) 18:53, 21 April 2024 (UTC) |
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***I have no objections.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 19:08, 21 April 2024 (UTC) |
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* This draft does nothing to fix the main issue with this section, which is neutrality. I'm sorry, but we can't ''not'' mention that she consciously and repeatedly misgendered transgender woman in a section on her views on transgender people. It appears flat out dishonest, especially if we're going to spend a whole paragraph quoting her four-year-old essay, using mostly news sources from the day it was published, as the most recent expression of her views. [[User:WikiFouf|WikiFouf]] ([[User talk:WikiFouf|talk]]) 19:14, 21 April 2024 (UTC) |
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**Hi {{u|WikiFouf}}, so this is an iterative process & eventually we get to the point where everyone agrees. In my view, S Marshall's point re structure/flow is correct, so those changes should be made.{{pb}} As far as the refs for the four-year-old manifesto - that's covered in Whited & Henderson so all the old citations can be dumped & we can source to two 2024 high quality scholarly sources. Because those sources cover the manifesto, we really should too.{{pb}} As for the misgendering, if you're referring to India Willoughby - I thought about adding it, but the RfC seems to be failing. And, well, recentism. But the "She will not shut up" statement does cover the string of comments. We don't need a digest of her comments but an overview. Let's take this a single slow step at a time & see where we get?{{pb}} "Flat out dishonest" seems a bit strong, in my view. Especially given the last three days of migraines, so I'm basically ready to call it quits. You all can take it from here. Or scrub it all and begin new. [[User:Victoriaearle|Victoria]] ([[User talk:Victoriaearle|tk]]) 19:58, 21 April 2024 (UTC) |
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*** For clarity, I wasn't saying that your intentions appear dishonest but that the text does, something which I stand by. If you missed it, she [https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/news/jk-rowling-misgender-trans-snp-b2521530.html tweeted a list of transgender women] weeks ago, including India Willoughby (again), [[Munroe Bergdorf]] as well as a handful of convicted sex offenders (for good measure), and wrote that they were "men, every single last one of them". Again, this is a section titled "Views [of J. K. Rowling] on transgender people". Misgendering is not just an insult towards an individual but a flat out rejection of transgender identity; that I even need to argue for its inclusion here is beyond me. [[User:WikiFouf|WikiFouf]] ([[User talk:WikiFouf|talk]]) 20:38, 21 April 2024 (UTC) |
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**** Although I'm not delighted with WikiFouf's level of rhetoric, I do agree that Rowling's tendency to misgender trans people bears mentioning as a separate point. I'll add something to that effect to the draft.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 21:11, 21 April 2024 (UTC) |
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****:The point I made was that omitting J. K. Rowling misgendering transgender people, in a section titled "Views [of J. K. Rowling] on transgender people", would appear dishonest. This is my honest concern. I did not call [[User:Victoriaearle|Victoria]] dishonest, I don't think that they are, I don't think being frank is low rhetoric. [[User:WikiFouf|WikiFouf]] ([[User talk:WikiFouf|talk]]) 21:53, 21 April 2024 (UTC) |
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******Don't worry, nobody here has any trouble at all understanding your point. For future reference: you can also say things less dramatically.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 22:37, 21 April 2024 (UTC) |
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****Wikipedia articles strive to reflect the highest quality sources and avoid [[WP:RECENTISM|recentism]] and [[WP:NOTNEWS|news-style blow-by-blow reporting]]. That's what Victoria-- an experienced [[WP:FA|FA]] writer-- is striving for, so let's aim for constructive criticism and concrete draft proposals rather than wording that can be easily misunderstood on the internet. I see no consensus on this page for bringing in blow-by-blow news-style unencyclopedic recent newsy issues; text that will endure is the goal. Thank you Victoria; your first draft work is appreciated! [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 23:24, 21 April 2024 (UTC) |
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****:@[[User:SandyGeorgia|SandyGeorgia]] ''After Kerry Kennedy expressed "profound disappointment" in her views, Rowling returned the Ripple of Hope Award given to her by the Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights organisation. LGBT charities and leading actors of the Wizarding World franchise condemned Rowling's comments; GLAAD called them "cruel" and "inaccurate".'' |
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****:This whole bit is backed only by breaking news sources, I don't see anyone here asking for its removal. |
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****:As for [[Wikipedia:RECENTISM|recentism]], "writing without an aim toward a long-term, historical view", it isn't a blanket ban on anything recent. As far as I know, we have to actually talk about it, case by case. On my end, I have repeatedly explained why I believe her misgendering of trans women is important. If you believe it to be unimportant, please explain why. [[User:WikiFouf|WikiFouf]] ([[User talk:WikiFouf|talk]]) 03:23, 22 April 2024 (UTC) |
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****::WikiFouf, I'm fairly certain I already explained that on this page, but I understand if it was lost in the volume, so please pardon my repetition. During the FAR, several editors read all the scholarly sources. We strove to cover that which was covered by scholarly or the highest quality sources, and give that material its due weight, although there were some places where the FAR was constrained by the result of a poorly conceived but well attended RFC, and we were stuck with some bits. And we all acknowledged then that those bits would need to be rewritten as better sources become available. Because some of the scholarly sources aren't freely accessible, at times we also substituted in a high quality news source ''when the material we were citing was also due weight according to scholarly or high quality sources''. I hope that, along with Victoria's response, answers the question. Perhaps you will read all five archives of the FAR to understand how the collaborative editing process worked towards consensus in a collegial environment that developed once people understood it was an iterative process. Have you accessed and read all the scholarly sources ? I believe your other concerns are being addressed in the second draft below, which is headed now in the right direction, but we need to make sure our content conforms closely to the sources. You can see below concrete suggestions for text changes and improvements. Robert F. Kennedy was Rowling's hero and role model; do you think her giving back the award is misplaced in the article? Do you want GLAAD removed? Then say so in the next draft with concrete suggestions and see if you can find consensus. The Willoughly issue has been on the page for days and has not found consensus; there is a better way to write encyclopedic content than RECENTISM, and much content can still be expanded at the sub-article, [[Political views of J. K. Rowling]], keeping this article conforming with [[WP:SS|summary style]] for a broad overview article of a very large topic. Have you been able to do some expansion over there? [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 03:59, 22 April 2024 (UTC) |
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*****Not SandyGeorgia, but as the author of the draft & the person who read the sources the section you quote ''After Kerry Kennedy expressed "profound disappointment" in her views, Rowling returned the Ripple of Hope Award given to her by the Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights organisation. LGBT charities and leading actors of the Wizarding World franchise condemned Rowling's comments; GLAAD called them "cruel" and "inaccurate",'' is all covered in the three or four 2024 sources I read. The Kennedy Award is covered; Daniel Radcliffe's comments are covered (leading actor); GLAAD is mentioned. I don't have the sources all open at the moment, but we can swap out the sources just as the sources for the other section you mentioned can be swapped. Personally I'd prefer to swap them as long as people okay with using far fewer sources. It's fine to put these things up for discussion in a collaberative and collegial manner. As for misgendering, I believe that's been added in the subsequent draft, so we can move on to that discussion and point out deficiencies there. [[User:Victoriaearle|Victoria]] ([[User talk:Victoriaearle|tk]]) 03:41, 22 April 2024 (UTC) |
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With something which has obviously proven to be as contentious as this I think we can still get there provided we adopt some rigour and an approach of assembling changes outside the main article. Thoughts anyone? <b>[[User:AulaTPN|<font color="#89f">A</font><font color="#78e">u</font><font color="#67d">l</font><font color="#56c">a</font>]][[User talk:AulaTPN|<sup><font color="#45b">T</font><font color="#34a">P</font><font color="#239">N</font></sup>]]</b> 17:05, 30 June 2007 (UTC) |
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*****:I sorta/kinda prefer leaving in freely accessible sources at times, for the benefit of readers, but that's not at all a sticking point for me. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 04:03, 22 April 2024 (UTC) |
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*****::Maybe a bit of both would work? There are some sources I'd marked for removal, so let's add it to the list of things to do for the next draft & see where we end up. [[User:Victoriaearle|Victoria]] ([[User talk:Victoriaearle|tk]]) 17:37, 22 April 2024 (UTC) |
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*****::I took the actors out of the notes, and actioned some other of {{u|WikiFouf}}'s comments - will elaborate later. Am going blind again. [[User:Victoriaearle|Victoria]] ([[User talk:Victoriaearle|tk]]) 21:25, 22 April 2024 (UTC) |
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===Second draft=== |
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==The "Controversy" section== |
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{{tq2| |
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Someone recently added a para on Harold Bloom's criticism of the books to that section, but I shifted it over to Harry Potter on the grounds that it had more to do with the books than with Rowling. On reflection though, I realised the entire controversy section is also not particularly relevant to Rowling personally. Since it's already in the Harry Potter article, I deleted it and replaced it with links in the See Also section. [[User:Serendipodous|Serendipodous]] 08:21, 1 July 2007 (UTC) |
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{{Main|Political views of J. K. Rowling#Transgender rights}} |
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:I'd agree with that. The focus of the controversy has mostly not been on J. K. Rowling as a person but on the merits/effects of her published works. However there has been a good deal of controversy over her stance on society's current portrayal of 'ideal women' as being overly skinny. Perhaps that can be incorporated here? <b>[[User:AulaTPN|<font color="#89f">A</font><font color="#78e">u</font><font color="#67d">l</font><font color="#56c">a</font>]][[User talk:AulaTPN|<sup><font color="#45b">T</font><font color="#34a">P</font><font color="#239">N</font></sup>]]</b> 11:03, 1 July 2007 (UTC) |
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Rowling has controversial views on [[sexual identity|sex]] and [[gender identity|gender]].{{sfn|Duggan|2021|loc=PDF pp. 14–15 (160–161)}} Rowling's statements{{sfn|Duggan|2021|loc=PDF pp. 14–15 (160–161)}}<ref name= Jacobs2023>{{cite news |last= Jacobs |first= Julia |title= Hogwarts legacy can't cast aside debate over J. K. Rowling |url= https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/09/arts/hogwarts-legacy-jk-rowling.html |date= 9 February 2023 |work = [[The New York Times]] |access-date= 14 July 2023}}</ref><ref name= Spangler2023>{{cite news |last= Spangler|first= Todd |title= J.K. Rowling addresses backlash to her anti-trans comments in new podcast: 'I never set out to upset anyone' |url= https://variety.com/2023/digital/news/jk-rowling-anti-trans-comments-podcast-witch-trials-1235522301/ |date= 14 February 2023|work= [[Variety (magazine)|Variety]]|access-date= 14 July 2023}}</ref> have been called transphobic,<ref name= Breznican2023>{{cite news |last= Breznican |first= Anthony |title= J.K. Rowling will oversee a new streaming ''Harry Potter'' series |url= https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2023/04/jk-rowling-harry-potter-series|date= 12 April 2023 |work= [[Vanity Fair (magazine)|Vanity Fair]] |access-date= 14 July 2023}}</ref><ref name=Rosenblatt2020>{{Cite web|last = Rosenblatt| first =Kalhan |title=J.K. Rowling doubles down in what some critics call a 'transphobic manifesto' |url= https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/j-k-rowling-doubles-down-what-some-critics-call-transphobic-n1229351|date= 10 June 2020 |access-date=19 January 2022|publisher=[[NBC News]] }}</ref> and she has been called a [[TERF (acronym)|TERF]] ("trans-exclusionary radical feminist").<ref name= Rosenblatt2020/>{{sfn|Steinfeld|2020|pp=34–35}}{{sfn|Schwirblat|Freberg|Freberg|2022|pp=367–368}} Her statements have shocked her fans,{{sfn|Whited|2024|p=6}} divided [[Feminist views on transgender topics|feminists]],<ref name=Kottasova2019>{{cite news |first1= Ivana |last1= Kottasová |first2= Scottie | last2= Andrew|title= J.K. Rowling's 'transphobia' tweet row spotlights a fight between equality campaigners and radical feminists |publisher= [[CNN]] |date= 20 December 2019 |access-date= 29 March 2022 | url= https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/20/uk/jk-rowling-transgender-explainer-intl-gbr/index.html}}</ref><ref name=BBC2020JKRResponds>{{cite news |url= https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-53002557 |publisher= [[BBC News]] |title= JK Rowling responds to trans tweets criticism |date= 11 June 2020 |access-date= 29 March 2022}}</ref><ref>{{cite news | url=https://www.newstatesman.com/international/2020/09/judith-butler-culture-wars-jk-rowling-and-living-anti-intellectual-times | title=Judith Butler on the culture wars, JK Rowling and living in 'anti-intellectual times'|first=Alona |last=Ferber | work=[[New Statesman]] | date=22 September 2020 | access-date=26 March 2021}}</ref> fuelled<!-- This article uses British spelling --> debates on [[freedom of speech]]{{sfn|Pape|2022|pp=229–230}}<ref>{{cite web|title=BBC nominates J.K.Rowling's controversial essay of trans rights for award|url=https://www.dw.com/en/bbc-nominates-jk-rowlings-controversial-essay-on-trans-rights-for-award/a-56014673|website=[[DW News]]|date=22 December 2020|access-date=22 December 2020}}</ref> and [[cancel culture]],{{sfn|Schwirblat|Freberg|Freberg|2022|pp=367–369}} and prompted declarations of [[Transgender rights movement|support for transgender people]] from the literary,<ref>UK, US, Canada, Ireland: {{cite news |last= Flood |first= Alison |date=9 October 2020|title= Stephen King, Margaret Atwood and Roxane Gay champion trans rights in open letter|url= https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/oct/09/stephen-king-margaret-atwood-roxane-gay-champion-trans-rights-open-letter-jk-rowling |work= [[The Guardian]] |access-date= 2 April 2022}}</ref> arts<ref>{{cite magazine|last= Rowley |first= Glenn |title= Artists fire back at J.K. Rowling's anti-trans remarks, share messages in support of the community|url= https://www.billboard.com/culture/pride/artists-fire-back-jk-rowling-anti-trans-remarks-9400386/|magazine= [[Billboard (magazine)|Billboard]]|date= 11 June 2020 |access-date= 7 April 2022}}</ref> and culture sectors.<ref>Culture sector: |
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* [[Universal Destinations & Experiences]], [[Warner Bros.]] and [[Scholastic Corporation]]: {{cite news |last1= Siegel |first1= Tatiana |last2= Abramovitch |first2= Seth |date= 10 June 2020 |title= Universal Parks responds to J.K. Rowling tweets: 'Our core values include diversity, inclusion and respect' |work= [[The Hollywood Reporter]] |url= https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/lifestyle/lifestyle-news/universal-parks-responds-jk-rowling-tweets-core-values-include-diversity-inclusion-respect-1297845/ |access-date= 3 April 2022|ref=none}} |
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* [[Warner Bros. Interactive Entertainment]] president: {{cite news |last= Skrebels |first= Joe |title= WB Interactive president responds to ongoing debate over supporting JK Rowling |date=1 October 2020 |url= https://www.ign.com/articles/wb-interactive-president-responds-to-ongoing-debate-over-supporting-jk-rowling |publisher= [[IGN]] |access-date= 2 April 2022|ref=none}}</ref> Rowling has said she would rather go to jail than use a trans woman's preferred pronouns.<ref>{{cite news |last=Chilton |first=Louis |date=19 October 2023 |title=JK Rowling claims she would ‘happily’ spend two years in prison for misgendering a trans person |url=https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/news/jk-rowling-trans-prison-b2432406.html |work=[[The Independent]] |access-date=21 April 2024}}</ref> |
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When [[Maya Forstater]]'s employment contract with the London branch of the [[Center for Global Development]] was not renewed after she tweeted [[Feminist views on transgender topics#Gender-critical feminism and trans-exclusionary radical feminism|gender-critical views]],{{sfn|Pugh|2020|p=7}}<ref name=Stack2019>{{Cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/19/world/europe/jk-rowling-maya-forstater-transgender.html|title=J.K. Rowling criticized after tweeting support for anti-transgender researcher|last=Stack|first=Liam|date=19 December 2019|work=[[The New York Times]]|access-date=13 June 2020| url-access=registration|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200613012737/https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/19/world/europe/jk-rowling-maya-forstater-transgender.html|archive-date=13 June 2020|url-status=live}}</ref> Rowling responded in December 2019 with a [[Twitter|tweet]] that [[transgender]] people should live in "peace and security", but questioned women being "force[d] out of their jobs for stating that sex is real".<ref name=Stack2019/>{{efn|A tribunal ruled in 2021 that Forstater's gender-critical views were protected under the 2010 UK [[Equality Act 2010|Equality Act]].<ref name=Faulkner2021>{{cite news |first= Doug |last= Faulkner |url= https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-57426579 |title= Maya Forstater: woman wins tribunal appeal over transgender tweets |publisher= [[BBC News]] |date= 10 June 2021 |access-date= 26 March 2022}}</ref><ref name=Siddique2021>{{cite news |first= Haroon |last= Siddique |date= 10 June 2021 |title= Gender-critical views are a protected belief, appeal tribunal rules|url= https://www.theguardian.com/law/2021/jun/10/gender-critical-views-protected-belief-appeal-tribunal-rules-maya-forstater |work= [[The Guardian]] |access-date= 26 March 2022}}</ref> |
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: I am not sure that it correct to delete. We have a spinoff article and it is summarized here. [[User:Jossi|≈ jossi ≈]] <small>[[User_talk:Jossi|(talk)]]</small> 12:10, 1 July 2007 (UTC) |
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::That section is a flypaper for potential OR. It encourages people to add their own thoughts about how "good" or "bad" JKR or her books are. It's already in the Harry Potter article, where I think it belongs, as its focus is on the books rather than her. Since the controversy is about the books, not her, it makes better sense that the summary section stays with the article on the books. [[User:Serendipodous|Serendipodous]] 12:15, 1 July 2007 (UTC) |
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::: Please read [[WP:POVFORK#Article_spinouts_-_.22Summary_style.22_articles|Article spinouts - "Summary style" articles]]. [[User:Jossi|≈ jossi ≈]] <small>[[User_talk:Jossi|(talk)]]</small> 22:48, 1 July 2007 (UTC) |
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::::The "Controversy" section was "spun out" from two different articles. The "religious" section was spun out from the main Harry Potter article. The "Legal" section was spun out from this article. Now that both sections have their own articles, if this article must link to part of the controversy section, it should link to the "legal" section only. In my opinion though, the legal section has evolved beyond its original theme, as many of the legal issues have nothing personally to do with Rowling, and thus is no longer directly tied to this article. Therefore it makes more sense to simply link to them, rather than mention them in the article. [[User:Serendipodous|Serendipodous]] 07:10, 2 July 2007 (UTC) |
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:::::So, can I remove the controversy section or not? [[User:Serendipodous|Serendipodous]] 10:40, 4 July 2007 (UTC) |
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In July 2022, a new tribunal decision was published (''[[Forstater v Center for Global Development Europe]]'') ruling that Forstater had suffered direct discrimination from her employer.<ref>{{cite web |title=Maya Forstater: Woman discriminated against over trans tweets, tribunal rules|date=6 July 2022 |url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-62061929 |publisher=BBC |access-date=6 July 2022}}</ref>}} ''Harry Potter'' scholar Lana Whited writes that in the next six months "Rowling herself fanned the flames as she became increasingly vocal and, in a few cases, flippant about gender identity."{{sfn|Whited|2024|p=6}} In another tweet in June 2020,{{sfn|Whited|2024|p=6}} Rowling mocked the phrase "[[people who menstruate]]",<ref name=Gross2020>{{Cite news|last=Gross|first=Jenny|date=7 June 2020|title=Daniel Radcliffe criticizes J.K. Rowling's anti-transgender tweets|work=[[The New York Times]]|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/07/arts/Jk-Rowling-controversy.html |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200607221400/https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/07/arts/Jk-Rowling-controversy.html |archive-date=7 June 2020 |url-access=subscription |url-status=live|access-date=6 January 2022 }}</ref> and tweeted that [[women's rights]] and "lived reality" would be "erased" if "sex isn't real".{{sfn|Duggan|2021|loc=PDF pp. 14–15}}{{sfn|Pugh|2020|p=7}} Potter scholar Tolanda Henderson, self-described as "gender-queer...non-binary transgender",{{sfn|Henderson|2022|p=223}} writes the June 2020 tweet revealed Rowling's "stance that invalidates nonbinary people like me".{{sfn|Henderson|2022|p=224}} |
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== Letter to the Czech government (in Charities section) == |
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Criticism of Rowling's views has come from the ''Harry Potter'' fansites [[MuggleNet]] and [[The Leaky Cauldron (website)|The Leaky Cauldron]];{{sfn|Henderson|2022|p=224}} and the charities [[Mermaids (charity)|Mermaids]],<ref name=Petter2020/> [[Stonewall (charity)|Stonewall]],<ref>{{cite news | url=https://www.newstatesman.com/long-reads/2021/11/the-battle-for-stonewall-the-lgbt-charity-and-the-uks-gender-wars | title=The battle for Stonewall: the LGBT charity and the UK's gender wars | work=[[New Statesman]]|first=Gaby |last=Hinsliff|date=3 November 2021 | access-date=24 November 2021}}</ref> and [[Human Rights Campaign]].<ref>{{cite news |first= Elise |last= Brisco |title=Dave Chappelle says he's 'Team TERF,' defends J.K. Rowling in new Netflix comedy special|url= https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/tv/2021/10/05/dave-chappelle-terf-defends-j-k-rowling-netflix-special/6002017001/ |work= [[USA Today]] |date= 8 October 2021|access-date= 29 March 2022}}</ref> After [[Kerry Kennedy]] expressed "profound disappointment" in her views, Rowling returned the [[Ripple of Hope Award]] given to her by the Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights organisation.<ref name=RFKAward>{{cite news |last=Flood|first=Alison |url= https://amp.theguardian.com/books/2020/aug/28/jk-rowling-robert-f-kennedy-human-rights-award-trans-views|title=JK Rowling returns human rights award to group that denounces her trans views |work=[[The Guardian]]|date=28 August 2020|access-date=28 August 2020}}</ref> [[LGBT]] charities and leading actors of the [[Wizarding World]] franchise condemned Rowling's comments;<ref name=Waterson2020>{{Cite news|last= Waterson |first= Jim|title= Children's news website apologises to JK Rowling over trans tweet row|url= https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jul/23/childrens-news-website-apologises-jk-rowling-trans-tweet-day|date= 23 July 2020 |access-date=26 March 2022|work=[[The Guardian]] |quote= Rowling's comments on gender were condemned by LGBT charities and the leading stars of her Harry Potter film franchise.}}</ref><ref name=Lang2020>{{cite magazine |last=Lang |first=Brent |title= Eddie Redmayne criticizes J.K. Rowling's anti-trans tweets |date= 10 June 2020 |url= https://variety.com/2020/film/news/eddie-redmayne-jk-rowling-anti-trans-tweets-harry-potter-fantastic-beasts-1234630226/ |magazine= [[Variety (magazine)|Variety]]|access-date=28 March 2022 |quote= Eddie Redmayne, star of the ''Fantastic Beasts'' franchise, is speaking out against J.K. Rowling's anti-trans tweets, as the controversy surrounding the author and her beliefs continues to swirl.}}</ref>{{efn| [[Daniel Radcliffe]], [[Emma Watson]], [[Rupert Grint]],<ref name= Hibberd2021/> [[Eddie Redmayne]]<ref name=Lang2020/> and others expressed support for the transgender community in reaction to Rowling's comments;<ref>{{cite magazine |first= Maureen |last= Lenker|title= Every Harry Potter actor who's spoken out against J.K. Rowling's controversial trans comments |date= 10 June 2020 |access-date= 1 April 2022 |magazine= [[Entertainment Weekly]]|url=https://ew.com/movies/every-harry-potter-actor-whos-spoken-out-against-j-k-rowlings-controversial-transgender-comments/ }}</ref><ref>{{cite news |first= Maggie |last= Baska|title= Stephen Fry defends 'friendship' with JK Rowling: 'I'm sorry that people are upset' |date= 20 May 2021 |url= https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2021/05/20/stephen-fry-jk-rowling-friend-harry-potter-jordan-b-peterson-podcast-trans/ |publisher= [[PinkNews]] |access-date= 29 March 2022}}</ref> [[Helena Bonham Carter]],<ref name=Evans2022> {{cite news |first= Greg |last= Evans |url= https://deadline.com/2022/11/helena-bonham-carter-johnny-depp-j-k-rowling-1235182523/ |title= Helena Bonham Carter says Johnny Depp 'completely vindicated' in defamation trial, and J.K. Rowling 'hounded' for transgender stance |work= [[Deadline Hollywood]] |access-date= 18 December 2022}}</ref> [[Robbie Coltrane]],<ref>{{cite news |last= Yasharoff |first= Hannah |title= How the 'Harry Potter' reunion addresses author J.K. Rowling's anti-trans controversy |date= 30 December 2021|url= https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/movies/2021/12/30/harry-potter-return-hogwarts-20th-reunion-emma-watson-jk-rowling-controversy/9042955002/ |work= [[USA Today]] |access-date= 2 April 2022}}</ref> and [[Ralph Fiennes]] supported Rowling.<ref name= Hibberd2021>{{cite news |first= James |last= Hibberd |url= https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/ralph-fiennes-defends-j-k-rowling-amid-trans-controversy-says-backlash-is-disturbing-4151944/ |title= Ralph Fiennes defends J.K. rowling amid trans controversy, says backlash is 'disturbing' |date= 17 March 2021 |access-date=26 March 2022 |work= [[The Hollywood Reporter]]}}</ref>}} [[GLAAD]] called them "cruel" and "inaccurate".<ref name= Yasharoff2020> {{cite news |last= Yasharoff |first=Hannah|url= https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/celebrities/2020/06/07/j-k-rowling-harry-potter-author-slammed-transphobic-comments/3169833001/ |title= J.K. Rowling reveals she's a sexual assault survivor; Emma Watson reacts to trans comments |work= [[USA Today]] |date= 10 June 2020 |access-date= 27 March 2022}}</ref> |
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There's sentence on how JKR sent a letter to the Czech government to stop using caged beds in mental institutions which the government obeyed immediatelly and without hesitation. The complete story is much more complicated and also much more entertaining. |
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She rejected these characterisations and denies being transphobic,<ref name=RowlingReasons/><ref name= Breznican2023/> in an essay she posted to her website on June 10, 2020,<ref name=RowlingReasons>{{cite web|title=J.K. Rowling writes about her reasons for speaking out on sex and gender issues |url=https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/ |publisher=JK Rowling |date=10 June 2020 |access-date=10 June 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200610182056/https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/ |archive-date=10 June 2020 |url-status=live}}</ref> where she stated that her views on women's rights were informed by her experience as a survivor of domestic abuse and [[sexual assault]].<ref name=Shirbon2020>{{cite news |last1=Shirbon |first1=Estelle |title=J.K. Rowling reveals past abuse and defends right to speak on trans issues |url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-rowling/j-k-rowling-reveals-past-abuse-and-defends-right-to-speak-on-trans-issues-idUSKBN23H2XI |publisher=[[Reuters]] |date=10 June 2020 |access-date=13 June 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200611200348/https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-rowling/j-k-rowling-reveals-past-abuse-and-defends-right-to-speak-on-trans-issues-idUSKBN23H2XI |archive-date=11 June 2020 |url-status=live}}</ref> While affirming that "the majority of trans-identified people not only pose zero threat to others, but are vulnerable ... Trans people need and deserve protection",<ref name= Shirbon2020/><ref>{{cite news |last1=Gonzalez |first1=Sandra |title=J.K. Rowling explains her gender identity views in essay amid backlash |url=https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/10/entertainment/jk-rowling/index.html |access-date=16 September 2023 |work=[[CNN]] |date=10 June 2020}}</ref><ref>{{cite news |last1=Garrand |first1=Danielle |title=J.K. Rowling defends herself after accusations of making "anti-trans" comments on Twitter |url=https://www.cbsnews.com/news/j-k-rowling-defends-anti-trans-comments-twitter/ |access-date=16 September 2023 |work=[[CBS News]] |date=11 June 2020}}</ref> she believes that public spaces, such as restrooms, should only be "same-gender space".{{sfn|Whited|2024|pp=6–7}} Of her own experiences with [[sexism]] and [[misogyny]],<ref>{{cite news |first= Sian |last= Cain |date= 11 June 2020 |title= JK Rowling reveals she is survivor of domestic abuse and sexual assault |url= https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/jun/10/jk-rowling-says-survivor-of-domestic-abuse-sexual-assault |work= [[The Guardian]] |access-date= 29 March 2022}}</ref> she asks if the "allure of escaping womanhood" would have led her to [[Gender transitioning|transition]] had she been born later, and said that trans activism was "seeking to erode 'woman' as a political and biological class".<ref name=DAlessandro2020>{{cite news |last=D'Alessandro |first=Anthony |title=J.K. Rowling defends trans statements in lengthy essay, reveals she's a sexual assault survivor & says 'trans people need and deserve protection' |url=https://deadline.com/2020/06/j-k-rowling-defends-trans-statements-essay-1202955524/ |access-date=5 January 2022 |publisher=[[Deadline Hollywood]] |date=10 June 2020}}</ref> Whited calls this a "public manifesto", which was the "final straw" for fans.{{sfn|Whited|2024|pp=6–7}} Literary scholars suggest that French literary critic [[Roland Barthes]] concept of "[[The Death of the Author]]" (to separate the author from the text) applies to Rowling;{{sfn|Whited|2024|pp=9–10}} Henderson believes this does not apply because Rowling "will not shut up" and that "trans-exclusionary themes [are] baked right into the text".{{sfn|Henderson|2022|p=224}} |
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Use of caged beds was supported by larger fraction of psychiatrists in the Czech Republic, some had opposed it. Independently, a British newspaper (Sunday Times) wrote a sensationalist article how badly they treat patients in this country (somewhere in the Wild East barbarians torture a retarded kid keeping him in a cage), JKR read it and wrote a letter to the president of the country, how she "''is shocked this happens in an EU country''". |
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}} |
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{{cot|Sources}} |
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{{reflist}} |
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{{cob}} |
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==== Discussion of second draft ==== |
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The minister of public health (who was a doctor by profession and not very smart politician) on the next day banned the caged beds. This decision was associated (by the media) with the letter, the minister ridiculed all over (like whether JKR is the new ruler of the country), reprimanded by president and lost his position soon during a government reorganisation. The decision itself was disagreed by many specialists (who had JKR for incompetent meddling in things she does not understand) and later partly reverted. Number of injuries of the patients has increased and the clinics have been constantly complaining about the decision. |
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{{u|S Marshall}} the template that we used during the FAR for viewing drafts side-by-side is at [[User:SandyGeorgia/sandbox5#Draft_proposals]]; it makes it much easier to compare where we are versus what is being proposed. (Also, word count matters :) [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 23:21, 21 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:I get 466 words, compared to the 429 that were in the article before the edit warring, newsy edits started last month. I suspect 466 words can be justified as due weight relative to the new scholarly sources, and [[WP:SIZE]] would still be reasonable, but it would be good to hear from others on the size relative to her overall bio and work. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 23:40, 21 April 2024 (UTC) |
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When JKR visited Prague in June 2007 ago she apologised for all the media uproar she caused. [http://zpravy.idnes.cz/rowlingova-tajne-v-praze-mrize-u-luzek-uz-ji-nevadi-fxp-/domaci.asp?c=A070531_205658_domaci_ost The timeline of the story in a Czech newspaper.] |
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Suggestions (it would be much easier to see the original and the proposed side-by-side): |
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IMO the sentence "''According to a press release by Amnesty International, Rowling is cited as having written a letter to the Czech government in support of the ban of cage bed in mental institutions in that country. This decision to ban these cage beds was made days after the authorities received her letter.''" should be removed as incomplete and deforming the reality. The complete story is not significant enough for an overview article. [[User:Pavel Vozenilek|Pavel Vozenilek]] 23:14, 1 July 2007 (UTC) |
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#The original Duggan wording (her views on sex and gender have provoked controversy) was changed to "Rowling has controversial views on sex and gender." That's a significant difference: What does the source say? [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 23:48, 21 April 2024 (UTC) |
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#Words can be trimmed and the issue above can be addressed by switching: |
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#* Rowling has controversial views on sex and gender.[1] Rowling's statements[1][2][3] have been called transphobic,[4][5] and she has been called a TERF ("trans-exclusionary radical feminist").[5][6][7] Her statements have shocked her fans,[8] divided feminists,[9][10][11] fuelled debates on freedom of speech[12][13] and cancel culture,[14] and ... |
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#*: to ... (controversy is implied by rest of context) |
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#** Rowling's stance on sex and gender[1][2][3] has been called transphobic[4][5] and she has been called a TERF ("trans-exclusionary radical feminist").[5][6][7] Her statements have shocked her fans,[8] divided feminists,[9][10][11] fuelled debates on freedom of speech[12][13] and cancel culture,[14] and ... [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 23:52, 21 April 2024 (UTC) |
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# Is it possible to reduce overquoting here, without losing the thought? "Rowling herself fanned the flames as she became increasingly vocal and, in a few cases, flippant about gender identity." We should strive as much as possible to keep Featured articles in our own words (not always possible, and I'm terrible at it, but others might have ideas). [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 23:56, 21 April 2024 (UTC) |
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# Rejig this to avoid tweet ... tweeted redundancy in the same sentence: "In another tweet in June 2020,[8] Rowling mocked the phrase "people who menstruate",[24] and tweeted that women's rights and "lived reality" would be "erased" if "sex isn't real".[25][19]" [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 23:58, 21 April 2024 (UTC) |
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# Potter scholar Tolanda Henderson, <s>self-described as "gender-queer...non-binary transgender",</s> ... not necessary. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 23:59, 21 April 2024 (UTC) |
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# New paragraph, so ... She rejected these characterisations --> Rowling rejected these characterisations ... [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 00:02, 22 April 2024 (UTC) |
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# (redundant) writes the <s>June 2020</s> tweet revealed Rowling's [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 00:04, 22 April 2024 (UTC) |
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# Serial commas were decided against in the FAR ... and denies being transphobic,[40][4] in an essay she posted to her website on June 10, 2020,[40] where she stated that her views ... can be adjusted in next draft. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 00:03, 22 April 2024 (UTC) |
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# Vague "literary scholars" ... one source is cited, so is it Whited suggesting this, or is Whited citing others ? "Literary scholars suggest that French literary ... " [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 00:06, 22 April 2024 (UTC) |
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# The [https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/news/jk-rowling-trans-prison-b2432406.html source says]: Rowling commented: “I’ll happily do two years if the alternative is compelled speech and forced denial of the reality and importance of sex.” Our text says: "Rowling has said she would rather go to jail than use a trans woman's preferred pronouns.") This needs work to better conform source-to-text integrity; if not possible, this might be an area where we might resort to a direct quote. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 00:59, 22 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:{{u|SandyGeorgia|Sandy}} these changes are fine, with a couple of caveats: |
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::*The "fanned the flames" quote can maybe be trimmed and should be attributed. I understand re overquoting but in this case a Rowling scholar is making the statement, which in my view holds some weight. If you or others disagree, maybe we can just delete that sentence |
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::*Tolanda Henderson's voice, in my view, is important, not only because they are a talented young scholar but because they are transgender, yet immersed in Rowling's work. That should somehow be signaled. |
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::*"literary scholars" >> Barthes is mentioned in Whited's "Introduction" and also in her volume by the author of "Accio, Jo" (the one who did the survey of fan fiction); in Henderson's "A Coda", published in Cecilia Konchar Farr's ''Open at the Close: Literary Essays on Harry Potter"'', and in Konchar Farr's "Introduction" to that volume. Of the four essays I read it was mentioned four times. We can cite all four if needed. Or none. Or something. |
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::*I didn't add the quote from the Independent, so leaving that for now. |
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:I'm scheduled for a brain scan tomorrow, so don't know when I can get back to all of this. If I'm not back tomorrow, they're easy fixes that anyone else can do. [[User:Victoriaearle|Victoria]] ([[User talk:Victoriaearle|tk]]) 02:06, 22 April 2024 (UTC) |
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::I hope your brain comes out pretty :). My sutures come out Tuesday; maybe there will be a third draft up, consolidating all commentary, by Wednesday (too much typing for me until the hand works). On ''The Independent'' bit, I think the intent is heading the right direction (generalize), but she said something different. Hope you have good news in a few days! [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 02:11, 22 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:::I haven't had a headache for two years or more but something about Rowling seems to spark them. It happened during the FAR too. I'm sure all is well, but the dr doesn't want to hear about the Wikipedia/Rowling/dense mark-up in the edit window excuses :) I will be back when possible. Good luck with the sutures. [[User:Victoriaearle|Victoria]] ([[User talk:Victoriaearle|tk]]) 02:38, 22 April 2024 (UTC) |
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*Ah, yes, that's reminded me why I don't touch featured articles. FA is its own subculture where everything I'd do elsewhere is always against some convention or guideline. Personally I prefer considering the new draft as a piece of writing in its own right rather than in comparison to a previous text, but going forward I will use the format.{{pb}}On the substance, I fully agree with both of you except:{{pb}}On point 1, I would defend my revision of the first sentence. Its purpose is to say what the issue is in simple terms and introduce the rest of the paragraph. It ought to be a simple declarative sentence in the active voice. The source is writing for scholars; but we're writing for curious, uninformed teenagers whose first language might not be English.{{pb}}On point 8, definitely don't string that many semicolons together. We're not writing eighteenth century literary fiction. If some authority has mandated "no serial commas there" then I'd tend to contest its reasoning.{{pb}}On point 10, I'm not summarizing Rowling's tweet. I'm summarizing the article about Rowling's tweet. We need a sentence about misgendering transwomen (nb: Rowling doesn't detectably do it to transmen).{{pb}}I'm happy to redraft if nobody else gets to it first!—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 08:00, 22 April 2024 (UTC) |
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: Oh gosh... Removed. If you want, please re-add, this time adding the missing information. [[User:Jossi|≈ jossi ≈]] <small>[[User_talk:Jossi|(talk)]]</small> 23:26, 1 July 2007 (UTC) |
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*:On point 1, we can avoid asserting something as fact in WikiVoice (which might not be supported by the source) by just rephrasing the whole construct as in point 2.{{pb}}On point 8, I'm not fussed about serial commas, but as we move towards a final draft, just something to keep in mind. Rephrasing usually resolves too many clauses. {{pb}} On point 10, we have a neutraility issue, since we're not reflecting what she actually said, or apparently thinks, if we take the context of her earlier statements together with that one quoted. What she seems to have said, in context, has been lost by some of the earlier deletions of content, which is why it's helpful to see side-by-side the last FA version (before the non-consensual changes started). The context of the quote in point 10 is about being "compelled" (by changes in law) to deny the reality of sex (wording she used earlier). This context of the change in laws was deleted by the non-consensual changes in the article, and by the time we reach point 10, we've now lost all context ... continued in response to Andrew below ... [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 11:45, 22 April 2024 (UTC) |
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* The second draft does not seem neutral because it is one-sided – it presents criticism of the subject's views but fails to balance this with prominent support such as [https://variety.com/2024/politics/global/jk-rowling-uk-prime-minister-scotland-hate-crime-act-arrest-me-1235957584/ U.K. Prime Minister Backs J.K. Rowling...]. {{pb}}The last word is not given to a VIP like [[Rishi Sunak|Sunak]] but instead to some quotes by Henderson. But who is Henderson? The reader has look back to find that this is [[Tolonda Henderson]] who is not sufficiently notable to have a Wikipedia article. Their quoted views seem to be given [[WP:UNDUE|undue]] weight because they are just cited to their own work rather than third parties.{{pb}} [[user:Andrew Davidson|Andrew]]🐉([[user talk:Andrew Davidson|talk]]) 10:14, 22 April 2024 (UTC) |
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::Just to comment, Rowling '''still''' advocates against cage beds and has several links to organizations and the sensationalist articles on her website. Not to say she is correct in her opinion, but her advocacy on the issue is significant, and warrants some comment rather than deletion because of controversy. Suggestions for a neutral sentence just mentioning the advocacy not the outcome? [[User:Libertycookies|Libertycookies]] 04:46, 2 July 2007 (UTC) |
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*:Well, I do think Victoriaearle's draft is right to give the last word to an academic study by an accredited Rowling scholar, rather than to a transparently politically motivated off the cuff remark by our unelected and totally-unqualified-in-sociology Prime Minister. In fact I see Victoriaearle's draft as excellent, needing only reordering and a few tweaks.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 10:48, 22 April 2024 (UTC) |
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*::@[[User:S Marshall|S Marshall]]: No prime ministers in the United Kingdom have been elected as such; being at all qualified in sociology is <ins>not</ins> a required qualification for the post. [[User:Bazza_7|Bazza <span style="color:grey">7</span>]] ([[User_talk:Bazza_7|talk]]) 11:50, 22 April 2024 (UTC) |
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*:::Thank you for grasping my point.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 13:17, 22 April 2024 (UTC) |
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*::Accredited Rowling scholar? The draft gets the name wrong but they seem to be [https://tolondahenderson.org/ this person]. They are still working on their PhD but have several masters degrees in a variety of fields such as religious studies. None of their theses seems to be about or related to Rowling and they declare that they are "no longer a Harry Potter scholar". [[user:Andrew Davidson|Andrew]]🐉([[user talk:Andrew Davidson|talk]]) 15:50, 22 April 2024 (UTC) |
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*:::I believe the text says ''Harry Potter'' scholar. The metric in literature is whether someone gets publishing and Henderson is being published very very early in their career. Whited cites them in the "Introduction" to her volume, so we can use her quote of Henderson's quote or just quote from Henderson. Fwiw, very view literary scholars have Wikipedia pages - not vastly published scholars such as Michael Reynolds who I use for Hemingway pages, so that's not a great metric. In my view Henderson's voice is valuable, so if consensus is needed to do so that process should begin before the next draft goes up. [[User:Victoriaearle|Victoria]] ([[User talk:Victoriaearle|tk]]) 17:47, 22 April 2024 (UTC) |
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*:Andrew gives another example of why we should see the last consensus version side-by-side. {{pb}} The context of the criticism (changes in the law) and support has been lost in the rapid-fire, non-consensual editing that begin in March. The [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=J._K._Rowling&oldid=1202117364#Transgender_people last good version I can find before all these changes is here]; the context of changes in law, and the fact that Rowling's views also have support in some sectors got dropped and those were not cuts that gained consensus, rather that stuck because others didn't edit war them back in. I suggest in Draft 3 putting that version side-by-side with the new proposal for discussion purposes. {{pb}} I don't pay much attention to "who gets the last word"; prose flow is more relevant. But I do agree that we've lost some neutrality that was reflected in earlier versions, and points 1/2 and 10 need particular work to more closely reflect sources and context. {{pb}} It might help to keep in mind that this page has many watchers who remain silent while we are drafting and until we get closer to a consensual draft; when we do, if the text is non-neutral, watchers do speak up, and it won't gain support for insertion, so working collaboratively towards compromise is key. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 12:07, 22 April 2024 (UTC) |
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*::I'd like better clarity on the "Literary scholars" line and otherwise think this constitutes a significant improvement. [[User:Simonm223|Simonm223]] ([[User talk:Simonm223|talk]]) 13:39, 22 April 2024 (UTC) |
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I have some issues with the way this new version seems to present Rowling's perspective nand Whited's quote on the subject. This seems to set up an idea that the disagreement with Rowling is the views that she is at times flippant, rather than presenting the description set out by Whited (or something like that) as a relatively NPOV descriptor, while also noting what the actual criticism of Rowling that has been presented is. At present, this draft somewhat increases the existing issue that this section seems to be rather from Rowling's POV, more than neutral -- missing out that she's posting personal attacks on trans people seems somewhat crucial. (On a more minor point: I feel like the sentence talking about Forsttaer would do better by being phrased as "In December 2019, Rowling commented [on Maya who had...]" would frame things more accurately than starting a sentence with "When Maya's employment contract was not renewed, Rowling Responded", because the currently suggested phrasing implied Rowling's comments were a response to Forstater's contract not being renewed (Feb 2019) as opposed to responding to the outcome of the employment tribunal (December 2019). [[User:WorthPoke2|WorthPoke2]] ([[User talk:WorthPoke2|talk]]) 17:20, 22 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Gonna have to agree with this one. While it's a stretch to assert that she had any significant part in the government's decision it is an issue on which she has campaigned quited publicly and quite vociferously. I think that needs to be mentioned. <b>[[User:AulaTPN|<font color="#89f">A</font><font color="#78e">u</font><font color="#67d">l</font><font color="#56c">a</font>]][[User talk:AulaTPN|<sup><font color="#45b">T</font><font color="#34a">P</font><font color="#239">N</font></sup>]]</b> 08:18, 2 July 2007 (UTC) |
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:Yes, I agree re Forstater, we need to explain that Forstater was let go for misgendering. That's in one of the sources I used. The "flippant phrase" will be cut for the next iteration. Thanks for posting these remarks - very helpful. [[User:Victoriaearle|Victoria]] ([[User talk:Victoriaearle|tk]]) 17:40, 22 April 2024 (UTC) |
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::::Reinstated first bit and merged it with "Other donations", since it was no longer big enough to stand on its own. [[User:Serendipodous|Serendipodous]] 09:22, 2 July 2007 (UTC) |
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====First sentence==== |
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==General reminder: This article is about JK Rowling, not the Harry Potter books== |
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{| class="wikitable" |
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|- |
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! Historic (20 words) !! Proposed (8 words) |
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|- |
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| Rowling's responses to proposed changes to UK gender recognition laws,<ref name= Milne2020>{{cite web|first1= Amber |last1=Milne|first2 = Rachel| last2 =Savage | url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-lgbt-rowling-explainer-trfn-idUSKBN23I3AI | title=Explainer: J. K. Rowling and trans women in single-sex spaces: what's the furore? | publisher=[[Reuters]] | date=11 June 2020 | access-date=6 April 2021 }}</ref><ref name= Brooks2020>{{Cite news|last=Brooks|first=Libby|date=11 June 2020|title=Why is JK Rowling speaking out now on sex and gender debate? |url= http://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/jun/11/why-is-jk-rowling-speaking-out-now-on-sex-and-gender-debate|access-date=14 January 2022 |work= [[The Guardian]] }}</ref>{{efn|The UK laws and proposed changes are the [[Gender Recognition Act 2004]], the [[Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill]] and the related [[Equality Act 2010]].{{sfn|Pedersen|2022|loc=Abstract}}{{sfn|Suissa|Sullivan|2021|pp=66–69}}{{sfn|Duggan|2021|loc=PDF pp. 14–15 (160–161)}} }} and her views on [[sexual identity|sex]] and [[gender identity|gender]], have provoked controversy.{{sfn|Duggan|2021|loc=PDF pp. 14–15 (160–161)}} || Rowling has controversial views on [[sexual identity|sex]] and [[gender identity|gender]].{{sfn|Duggan|2021|loc=PDF pp. 14–15 (160–161)}} |
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|- |
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|} |
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{{cot|Sources}} |
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So. I have removed the controversial "controvery" subsection. It's already in the [[Harry Potter]] article and there it should stay. The controversy is about the books, not about her. |
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{{reflist}} |
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{{cob}} |
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My position is that the version to the right is the better opening sentence. It's a topic sentence. It's a simple declarative sentence. It simply and accurately summarizes the paragraph that follows. And I don't see how anyone who's read the sources could possibly dispute it? A reasonable alternative could be "Rowling's views on sex and gender are controversial".—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 13:42, 22 April 2024 (UTC) |
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This should discourage anyone from trying to make any claims about Rowling vis a vis her writing talent, or lack thereof, her morality or lack thereof, or how good or bad the books have been for society. Such debates belong in the Harry Potter article if they belong anywhere. |
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:Quick comment and fwiw, my sandbox shows the first sentence as "Rowling's views on sex and gender, have provoked controversy", which is nice & declarative. It does look as though the gender recognition laws got cut b/c of word count, but it should probably go back in. It it mentioned on the sources. But I agree w/ S Marshall that it should start with a good declarative general topic sentence. [[User:Victoriaearle|Victoria]] ([[User talk:Victoriaearle|tk]]) 13:47, 22 April 2024 (UTC) |
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::It's declarative but personally I might tend to prefer the active voice for a topic sentence? On the gender recognition laws—yes, you're right. How about two sentences? "Rowling has controversial views on sex and gender. She uses {{abbr|X|twitter}} and her blog to share her thoughts about them, where she has been particularly outspoken about changes to gender recognition laws."—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 14:03, 22 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:::I'm thinking it might be worth going back to the drawing board - reread the sources, take more notes, then try again with the first sentence. There are some good suggestions landing on this page. [[User:Victoriaearle|Victoria]] ([[User talk:Victoriaearle|tk]]) 17:35, 22 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:The Duggan source is attached to this sentence, but it's not very clear to me how "controversial" is all we're getting from that source for this opening sentence ([[MOS:CONTROVERSIAL]]), especially when this ''2021'' peer-reviewed article unequivocally states "Rowling’s personal, conservative views on sex and gender have recently been made abundantly clear through her repeated and escalating anti-trans commentary". |
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:If NPOV is the concern for not using "anti-trans" or "anti-transgender" as a descriptor for the years of continuous activism that the paragraphs that follow describe (despite the Duggan source using the term), we should at least consider [[gender-critical]] (which has been used by high quality news sources and herself to describe her views). [[User:Umdlye|Umdlye]] ([[User talk:Umdlye|talk]]) 16:28, 22 April 2024 (UTC) |
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::Thanks, that's useful. I made a mental note to reread Duggan and to make notes. Whited does use [[gender-critical]], so that can easily be slipped in. [[User:Victoriaearle|Victoria]] ([[User talk:Victoriaearle|tk]]) 17:35, 22 April 2024 (UTC) |
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::Reiterating my thanks to {{u|Umdlye}} for checking the source for this. The words "controversy/contreversial" are not used in Duggan & the commentary (as frankly it is also to some extent in other critics) is framed in regards to the Rowling/Harry Potter fandom. The most relevant sentence is the one Umdlye mentions above {{tq|Rowling’s personal, conservative views on sex and gender have recently been made abundantly clear through her repeated and escalating anti-trans commentary}} which only goes to 2020. So, yes, I think we should rethink how to start. [[User:Victoriaearle|Victoria]] ([[User talk:Victoriaearle|tk]]) 19:59, 22 April 2024 (UTC) |
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; Second try |
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This article isn't about how good or bad her books are. It isn't even really about how good or bad Rowling is. The main reason this article seems a bit pro-Rowling is because, quite frankly, she hasn't done anything overty bad. At least not yet. And to anyone who thinks that she might be getting away with murder, you haven't encountered the British tabloid press. Believe me, they've been trying to get at her for years. |
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{| class="wikitable" |
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|- |
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! Historic (20 words) !! Proposed (5 words) |
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|- |
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| Rowling's responses to proposed changes to UK gender recognition laws,<ref name= Milne2020>{{cite web|first1= Amber |last1=Milne|first2 = Rachel| last2 =Savage | url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-lgbt-rowling-explainer-trfn-idUSKBN23I3AI | title=Explainer: J. K. Rowling and trans women in single-sex spaces: what's the furore? | publisher=[[Reuters]] | date=11 June 2020 | access-date=6 April 2021 }}</ref><ref name= Brooks2020>{{Cite news|last=Brooks|first=Libby|date=11 June 2020|title=Why is JK Rowling speaking out now on sex and gender debate? |url= http://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/jun/11/why-is-jk-rowling-speaking-out-now-on-sex-and-gender-debate|access-date=14 January 2022 |work= [[The Guardian]] }}</ref>{{efn|The UK laws and proposed changes are the [[Gender Recognition Act 2004]], the [[Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill]] and the related [[Equality Act 2010]].{{sfn|Pedersen|2022|loc=Abstract}}{{sfn|Suissa|Sullivan|2021|pp=66–69}}{{sfn|Duggan|2021|loc=PDF pp. 14–15 (160–161)}} }} and her views on [[sexual identity|sex]] and [[gender identity|gender]], have provoked controversy.{{sfn|Duggan|2021|loc=PDF pp. 14–15 (160–161)}} || Rowling is a [[gender-critical feminist]].{{sfn|Duggan|2021|loc=PDF pp. 14–15 (160–161)}} |
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|} |
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{{cot|Sources}} |
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For those of you intent on "balancing" this article's POV, well, if you want her to be a saint, we can list the charities she's given to 'til world's end, but any moral inferences from her books are out. And for those of you aching to tear her down, if any of you can come up with a substantiated story that has her fondling children or embezzling money, then in it will go, but complaints about her books are not relevant to her biography. Yes, she's very rich and gets a lot of press attention. Whether you think she deserves it is irrellevant. [[User:Serendipodous|Serendipodous]] 15:28, 4 July 2007 (UTC) |
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{{reflist}} |
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{{cob}} |
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Easy enough. :)—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 22:02, 22 April 2024 (UTC) |
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About J.K. Rowling's '''personal''' dislikes and '''her''' exploration of themes in her book Harry Potter. Seren, you're just wrong to exclude this material. It is as least as relevent as the details on when she published her books as to why she included themes in the books. I'm reposting, the content on the books site is not as detailed with her personal '''detesting''' of bigotry, etc. [[User:Libertycookies|Libertycookies]] 17:20, 4 July 2007 (UTC) |
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:I think we should have more sources but I also think that this is the best starting sentence proposed so far, and it's not close. [[User:LokiTheLiar|Loki]] ([[User talk:LokiTheLiar|talk]]) 22:38, 22 April 2024 (UTC) |
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====Rowling's exploration of moral themes in ''Harry Potter''==== |
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:Not working for me, as I explained in the third draft section. Removes context, and we already work in gender critical later in the text. Restore context first-- Rowling's statements refer to changes in laws. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 09:13, 23 April 2024 (UTC) |
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In 2000, an interviewer with ''Entertainment Weekly'' asked why Rowling chose to explore a theme of [[bigotry]] in ''Goblet of Fire''. Rowling answered saying, <blockquote>"Because [[bigotry]] is probably the thing I detest most. All forms of [[intolerance]], the whole idea of ''that which is different from me is necessary evil.'' I really like to explore the idea that difference is equal and good. But there's another idea that I like to explore, too. Oppressed groups are not, generally speaking, people who stand firmly together -- no, sadly, they kind of subdivide among themselves and fight like hell. That's human nature, so that's what you see here. This world of wizards and witches, they're already ostracized, and then within themselves, they've formed a loathsome pecking order."<ref>{{cite web |
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| last =Jensen |
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| first =Jeff |
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| authorlink = |
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| coauthors = |
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| title ='Fire' Storm |
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| work = |
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| publisher =Entertainment Weekly |
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| date = |
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| url =http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,85523,00.html |
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| format = |
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| doi = |
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| accessdate = July 4, 2007}} |
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</ref> |
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</blockquote> |
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Rowling also acknowledged that she was "[[left-wing]]", and said of ''Harry Potter'', "there is a certain amount of political stuff in there. But I also feel that every reader will bring his own agenda to the book. People who send their children to boarding schools seem to feel that I'm on their side. I'm not. Practicing wiccans think I'm also a witch. I'm not." <ref>{{cite web |
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| last =Jensen |
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| first =Jeff |
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| authorlink = |
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| coauthors = |
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| title ='Fire' Storm |
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| work = |
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| publisher =Entertainment Weekly |
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| date = |
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| url =http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,85523,00.html |
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| format = |
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| doi = |
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| accessdate = July 4 2007}} |
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</ref> |
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*I'm sorry, Sandy, I'm stuck on this. Could you be more specific, please? Is your position: |
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In the ''Vancouver Sun'', Rowling said that to her, the moral significance of the tales seems obvious. The key for her was the choice between what is right and what is easy, ''"because that, that is how [[tyranny]] is started, with people being [[apathetic]] and taking the easy route and suddenly finding themselves in deep trouble."''<ref>Wyman, Max. [http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/2000/1000-vancouversun-wyman.htm| 'You can lead a fool to a book but you can't make them think'] October 26 2000 |
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# That Rowling isn't a feminist? |
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</ref> |
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# That she isn't gender-critical? |
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# That she's gender-critical and feminist, but not a gender-critical feminist? |
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# That she's a gender-critical feminist but we shouldn't just come out and say it? |
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# That she's a gender-critical feminist and it's okay to say so if we add more context? |
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:Thanks.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 13:05, 25 April 2024 (UTC) |
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====Misgendering==== |
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No. This page is not a soapbox from which JK Rowling can launch her personal agenda, nor should anyone else do so for her. This page is primarily a biography. If we let that kind of information in, then someone else will come along and add more biased material to "balance it out". Eventually, this page will become a rambling argument about Rowling's good or bad moral qualities. Best to leave it out. [[User:Serendipodous|Serendipodous]] 17:27, 4 July 2007 (UTC) |
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*Context: A newspaper writes a speculative article about how a future Labour government could make misgendering into an aggravated offence, carrying a maximum sentence of two years at His Majesty's pleasure. |
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*Rowling tweet: {{tq|I'll happily do two years if the alternative is compelled speech and forced denial of the reality and importance of sex.}} |
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*A different newspaper covers the tweet, using the headline: {{tq|JK Rowling claims she would ‘happily’ spend two years in prison for misgendering a trans person.}} |
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*Proposed sentence about this: {{tq|Rowling has said she would rather go to jail than use a trans woman's preferred pronouns.}} |
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What's the NPOV issue here?—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 14:29, 22 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:Deep breaths...! I think Seren is right. As the purpose of this article is to serve as a biography of JK then the material is quite inappropriate for inclusion here. At best it unbalances [[WP:NPOV|NPOV]] inviting a landslide from anti-Rowling fanatics in an attempt to redress the balance. At worst it's a violation of [[WP:BLP]] and is largely irrelevant. However it is extremely relevant to the [[Harry Potter]] article and as that's not a biography I think it would be an excellent addition there. The trouble is that there are many instances where an artist in a certain field has produced a work which quite openly explores certain moralities which are neither shared nor espoused by the artist him/herself. Just think about almost any neutral book about Hitler or the Nazi party - it's an extreme example I know but you take my point. That being the case it's not entirely appropriate to attribute those themes to JK herself just because they're explored in her books. But like I said, it absolutely belongs at the [[Harry Potter]] article so let's work on it there. <b>[[User:AulaTPN|<font color="#89f">A</font><font color="#78e">u</font><font color="#67d">l</font><font color="#56c">a</font>]][[User talk:AulaTPN|<sup><font color="#45b">T</font><font color="#34a">P</font><font color="#239">N</font></sup>]]</b> 18:12, 4 July 2007 (UTC) |
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:It's not what she said, although it's what a (clickbait?) newspaper headline claimed. And context is missing. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 17:56, 22 April 2024 (UTC) |
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::To help me understand, please look at some of the assumption and POV put on this guy [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Benedict_XVI]. I can appreciate the concerns for needing to police the J.K. Rowling site for balance and personal viewpoints, but if she said it, shouldn't it be acceptable? I really don't see this as an attempt to knock her down, just to point out that her books have been seen in a moral light. There is a subindustry of books that go into this in detail, too. [[User:Libertycookies|Libertycookies]] 19:10, 4 July 2007 (UTC) |
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:It looks fine to me. It's accurate. [[User:Simonm223|Simonm223]] ([[User talk:Simonm223|talk]]) 17:59, 22 April 2024 (UTC) |
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::If the sentence is prefaced with "Rowling has said" (as it is), it is false as written: she did not say that.[https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/news/jk-rowling-trans-prison-b2432406.html] She said “I’ll happily do two years if the alternative is compelled speech and forced denial of the reality and importance of sex.” It would be true if attributed, for example, {{tq2|''The Independent'' wrote that "Rowling has suggested that she would 'happily' spend two years in prison for misgendering a transgender person".}} (It's still not what she said, and may not even be what she meant or believes, but we can't know, so attribute this as ''The Independent'' interpretation of her actual words, which were ''much'' more qualified than implied in the news report -- and that's why we have to take care with news reports.) [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 18:07, 22 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:* It's not a matter of NPOV; it's a matter of accuracy. [[WP:QUOTEUSE]] recommends that "''Editors of controversial subjects should quote the actual spoken or written words to refer to the most controversial ideas.''" So, it's best to quote such tweets verbatim rather than paraphrasing them. [[user:Andrew Davidson|Andrew]]🐉([[user talk:Andrew Davidson|talk]]) 20:06, 22 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Well exactly. And I completely agree but you said it yourself 'her '''books''' have been seen in a moral light'. So the commentary should be attached to the article about the books. I'm not even going to get involved in the article about the Pope - I'd get flamed into oblivion I'm sure! <b>[[User:AulaTPN|<font color="#89f">A</font><font color="#78e">u</font><font color="#67d">l</font><font color="#56c">a</font>]][[User talk:AulaTPN|<sup><font color="#45b">T</font><font color="#34a">P</font><font color="#239">N</font></sup>]]</b> 19:38, 4 July 2007 (UTC) |
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::*I've just read the ''Independent'' article. The tweet itself is quite long & there isn't much context if only the tweet is quoted. Suggest we find something better. [[User:Victoriaearle|Victoria]] ([[User talk:Victoriaearle|tk]]) 20:32, 22 April 2024 (UTC) |
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*I'm a big fan of writing everything in [[WP:OUROWNWORDS]]. I think that we have to mean what the sources mean, but we don't have to say what the sources say.{{pb}}The sources are writing for their audiences—often scholars, with the best sources—but we're writing for ''our'' audience which is the general public. A decent Wikipedia article manages down its [[Flesch–Kincaid readability tests|Flesch-Kincaid score]]. We ought to write ''clearly'', using topic sentences, and preferring short words and simple indicative or declarative constructions. Let's not feel constrained to crib sources' wording. Our job is to summarize the source, not repeat it.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 22:20, 22 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:::First of all, "If someone else is doing it, why can't I?" is not a good argument on Wikipedia. Second, there is a ''lot'' of unsourced synthesis material in that article. I was particularly struck by this line: "Benedict thus endorses creative reason, manifested in the crucified God as love, which contrasts with the strict rationality of the Enlightenment," which is effectively a commentary on Benedict's quote and is thus OR. The following paragraph is completely unsourced. The final section "Attire" contains no citations. Finally, Pope Benedict is a moral figurehead. His moral stance is therefore important. JK Rowling is an authoress. Her moral stance is not directly relevant to her biography. [[User:Serendipodous|Serendipodous]] 19:42, 4 July 2007 (UTC) |
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::::Quite right. <b>[[User:AulaTPN|<font color="#89f">A</font><font color="#78e">u</font><font color="#67d">l</font><font color="#56c">a</font>]][[User talk:AulaTPN|<sup><font color="#45b">T</font><font color="#34a">P</font><font color="#239">N</font></sup>]]</b> 22:44, 4 July 2007 (UTC) |
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* I agree, there's a nuance. The phrasing makes it sound as if she would rather be jailed than use any trans woman's pronouns. Her tweet doesn't say anything about "any". Not to be the broken record but we have a much clearer, more widely covered and more meaningful quote to include: she tweeted a list of trans women and wrote that they were "men, every single last one of them". You can't get more concise than that —[[User:WikiFouf|WikiFouf]] ([[User talk:WikiFouf|talk]]) 02:56, 23 April 2024 (UTC) |
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::: The issue is not if 'her '''books''' have been seen in a moral light'. The issue is if reliable sources have describe them as such. If so, the significant viewpoints presented in these sources could be described and [[WP:ATT|attributed]] to these sources. What must be avoided is to ''frame'' these issues as facts, rather than opinion. If there are significant opinions, these can be listed in the article(s) about her book(s). And if there are competing opinions on the subject, these need to be listed as well. [[User:Jossi|≈ jossi ≈]] <small>[[User_talk:Jossi|(talk)]]</small> 19:44, 4 July 2007 (UTC) |
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*:I wouldn't be opposed to developing that idea instead ... at least it reflects exactly what she said. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 08:28, 23 April 2024 (UTC) |
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; Rephrase #1 |
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::::Well I had assumed that that was a given. It's almost exactly the same debate as is taking place at the AfD for the article about themes in Rowling's works. The question I think Liberty is unclear about is exactly what we could consider to be a reliable source in this context? <b>[[User:AulaTPN|<font color="#89f">A</font><font color="#78e">u</font><font color="#67d">l</font><font color="#56c">a</font>]][[User talk:AulaTPN|<sup><font color="#45b">T</font><font color="#34a">P</font><font color="#239">N</font></sup>]]</b> 22:44, 4 July 2007 (UTC) |
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:::::It isn't just a question of reliable sources. If I may coin a phrase, the issue here is one of "source painting." If we exclusively employ certain sources to paint JK Rowling in a particular light, we are engaging in OR, however well-intentioned. That's why bio pages should always focus on the "what", and leave the "why" to editorials. [[User:Serendipodous|Serendipodous]] 10:29, 5 July 2007 (UTC) |
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::::::Oh I completely agree about "source painting", after all it's why we have [[WP:SYNTH]]. I still think that it can be done carefully in a limited and balanced manner in the context of the [[Harry Potter]] article, just not here. <b>[[User:AulaTPN|<font color="#89f">A</font><font color="#78e">u</font><font color="#67d">l</font><font color="#56c">a</font>]][[User talk:AulaTPN|<sup><font color="#45b">T</font><font color="#34a">P</font><font color="#239">N</font></sup>]]</b> 12:38, 5 July 2007 (UTC) |
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:::::::Okay, assuming that I'll buy into the argument that the details about morality and politics belong in Harry Potter, not JK Rowling, would you permit an article specifically on these aspects? Not to be a POV fork, but to be similar to the Controversy article. Aula pointed out that anti-Rowling folks may attack the subject, so setting it away from the main articles might be a way to avoid edit wars on the main article. |
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:::::::Excellent article on the politics of the Order of Phoenix movie as the mainstream starts to grapple with what Rowling hath wrought. <blockquote>"This is quite a political story," explained "Phoenix" director David Yates. "It's far more political than all the other 'Potter' stories, with the notion that there's this denial of truth outside in the wider world, there's an administration or a government who out of fear are trying to suppress and control information, the whole way the Daily Prophet [the wizard world's newspaper] frames Harry's story and presents him as a villain or a liar. J.K. Rowling's created those parallels, and they echo things in our world, very clearly." [http://www.mtv.com/movies/news/articles/1564179/20070705/story.jhtml]</blockquote> [[User:Libertycookies|Libertycookies]] 19:17, 7 July 2007 (UTC) |
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:::That's someone else's opinion; unless it comes from Rowling herself, it doesn't count. And anyway, that would belong in the Order of the Phoenix page, not here. [[User:Serendipodous|Serendipodous]] 19:18, 7 July 2007 (UTC) |
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::::Its fairly well known that Rowling works closely with the directors of the movies to make sure they don't stray too far from the story. The politics extend to other books as well, and become stronger as the series progresses, which is why I was thinking a [[Politics of Harry Potter]] article would be appropriate. We can differentiate between the politics in the movies from the books if necessary. [[User:Libertycookies|Libertycookies]] 19:34, 7 July 2007 (UTC) |
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:::::Actually I don't think that's necessarily true, the producers have consulted her on occasion but she doesn't visit the studio that often. She has an extremely close working relationship with the scriptwriters though, Steve Kloves in particular. Anyway, I don't think a separate page is necessary for this topic but it does need to be enumerated. You can tell from reading the books that J. K. puts a lot of effort into the various topics placed into the book - some subtle and some outright blatant - and I think it's important that this is recognised especially in the modern age of brain-drain, lowest-common-denomenator, mass entertainment. The trouble is that you would have to be exceptionally careful in how you went about detailing these themes. For instance you couldn't go around saying that for topic X, J.K. or her books espoused viewpoint Y because 1) you'd have a hard time supporting it and 2) you'd get flooded by people who disagree and general Rowling-haters. What you'd have to do is state that book A deals with topic X and cite neutral references and maybe then say character E takes viewpoint Y while character F takes opposing viewpoint Z. For example: |
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{{tq2|{{abbr|Rowling sees transwomen as men, and she often uses her twitter account and blog to say so|Topic sentence}}. She has shared a list of transwomen with her followers, writing that they were "men, every single last one of them".<ref>{{cite news |last=Harrison |first=Ellie |date=1 April 2024 |title=JK Rowling could be investigated by police for misgendering trans people, SNP minister says |url=https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/news/jk-rowling-misgender-trans-snp-b2521530.html |work=[[The Independent]] |access-date=23 April 2024}}</ref> She [[Transphobia#Misgendering|declines to use feminine pronouns]] for transwomen.<ref>{{cite news |last=Chilton |first=Louis |date=19 October 2023 |title=JK Rowling claims she would ‘happily’ spend two years in prison for misgendering a trans person |url=https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/news/jk-rowling-trans-prison-b2432406.html |work=[[The Independent]] |access-date=21 April 2024}}</ref>}} |
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:''In the second novel, [[Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]], one of the core themes tackled is the subject of racism<ref>[http://www.www.www insert link]</ref>. This issue is explored in the Wizarding community using the notion of '[[Blood purity (Harry Potter)|Blood Purity]]' where the community is segregated into those who are [[Pureblood]] and those who are not <ref>[http://www.www.www another good ref here]</ref>. The majority of the community is portrayed as having little regard as to one's magical heritage<ref>[http://www.www.www here's the killer ref]</ref> but there are certain, sometimes prominent, elements of society who exhibit great bigotry against those whose bloodlines are not pure<ref>[http://www.www.www Malfoy anyone?]</ref>.'' |
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{{reflist}} |
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:::::Then fill in the refs above as appropriate. You might want to say more, if you could cite it reliably you might point out that those prejudiced against mudbloods are frowned upon by the magical community but I'd be inclined to leave it there. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that when trying to explore such themes without editorialising it's much easier to highlight the fact that the topic is raised than to explicitly state the novel's preferred viewpoint and try to maintain factual, non-synthetic balance. Thoughts? <b>[[User:AulaTPN|<font color="#89f">A</font><font color="#78e">u</font><font color="#67d">l</font><font color="#56c">a</font>]][[User talk:AulaTPN|<sup><font color="#45b">T</font><font color="#34a">P</font><font color="#239">N</font></sup>]]</b> 20:34, 7 July 2007 (UTC) |
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I know, it's bloating again.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 07:27, 23 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::Here's a direct quote on Rowling and politics.[[User:Libertycookies|Libertycookies]] 20:30, 7 July 2007 (UTC) |
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:::::JK Rowling has been gushing that seeing [Gordon Brown] in power was almost as exciting as seeing her novels made into films. “It’s really great to see him leading the country,” beamed the 41-year-old from under a huge umbrella at the rain-soaked premiere of the latest Potter movie, The Order Of The Phoenix. |
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:This doesn't provide context, and is still not what she said. The context, repeatedly, has been about changes in laws. That context was in the previous versions and should be restored, and we have to take great care to not put words in her mouth she hasn't said. It's possible to use preferred personal pronouns in one's daily personal interaction and not be opposed to doing so, yet still be opposed to laws that criminalize language. In the olden days, it was referred to as "freedom of speech". [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 08:27, 23 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::Rowling recently collaborated on a charity book with Sarah Brown to help one-parent families but the multi-millionaire was adamant she would never go into politics herself. |
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::We have to explain why the trans community and allies are annoyed with Rowling. We can't do that fairly and accurately unless we discuss her refusal to stop misgendering people. We shouldn't give her tweet in full with all its weaselly self-justification because we only have 475 words. We have to reduce it to a hard-boiled nugget of telling it like it is.{{pb}}Hate speech isn't protected speech, and rightly so. Your freedom of speech doesn't extend to racism, sexism or homophobia. Whether it should extend to transphobia is a live debate and I can see both sides of that, but if your position is that Rowling's fundamentalism about it should be protected speech, then I respectfully join issue with you.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 10:35, 23 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::“I’d never do it – absolutely not,” she said. Very wise.[http://www.express.co.uk/features/view/12420/Gordon-Brown-has-JK's-vote] |
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:::I think "freedom of speech" is a red herring here because the facts are pretty clear that Rowling regularly does say transphobic things, including misgendering specific people, on Twitter and that's a big part of why people are annoyed at her. It doesn't matter if she is legally right that she can't be punished for it. That is not the notable part of her statement. [[User:LokiTheLiar|Loki]] ([[User talk:LokiTheLiar|talk]]) 13:46, 23 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:From the sources it seems that she's reacting to the [[Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill]] and saying she'll misgender whomever she wants. Is this a correct reading? If so, then we have a scholarly source for the first part (Whited) and would need one for the second. [[User:Victoriaearle|Victoria]] ([[User talk:Victoriaearle|tk]]) 20:59, 23 April 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::Yeah but so what? The fact that she's happy about GB as PM is fairly meaningless because she doesn't say why? Is it policy X or policy Y or just because he's a friend? That quote is, however, very valuable to the people who would oppose you as it can easily be used to support a stance that she has no intention to get involved in politics on any level. <b>[[User:AulaTPN|<font color="#89f">A</font><font color="#78e">u</font><font color="#67d">l</font><font color="#56c">a</font>]][[User talk:AulaTPN|<sup><font color="#45b">T</font><font color="#34a">P</font><font color="#239">N</font></sup>]]</b> 20:36, 7 July 2007 (UTC) |
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::I think it's more general than the Gender Reform Bill? The Independent article is about Rowling's reaction to the Gender Reform Bill, but it says at paragraph 8: {{tq|Harry Potter author Rowling has frequently argued online that trans women are not women and last week vowed to continue “calling a man a man” despite what she called the “ludicrous law”.}} This is accurate: she has frequently argued this online in several different contexts. In fact Rowling's gender-critical tweets go back before the Bill was passed. (It passed in 2021, but the law wasn't enforced until 2024 to allow time for enforcement training. Rowling's gender-critical behaviour goes back to December 2019, although at that time she was speaking much more mildly and hesitantly than she does now.)—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 22:12, 23 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::Just a curiousity. Somewhat interesting in that she has ruled out elected office...here in the States being extremly rich with name recognition is one of the unwritten qualifications to run for office. But being elected and getting involved in politics are two different things. Case in point, you may have seen some of [[Al Gore]] yesterday? [[User:Libertycookies|Libertycookies]] 12:20, 8 July 2007 (UTC) |
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:::Yes, I understand that it's not new but because there are proposed sanctions my sense from across the pond is that it's escalating. Can we write something like, {{tq|Rowling continues to oppose gender self-designation,(cited to Whited p. 7)}} and last week {{tq|vowed to continue “calling a man a man” despite what she called the “ludicrous law”.}} (Independent) Basically the post about people who menstruate says it all, but I'm getting the sense it has to be spelled out? Maybe? I thought the Henderson quote that it invalidate "People like me" spelled it out, but maybe not? Word count is always a problem ... [[User:Victoriaearle|Victoria]] ([[User talk:Victoriaearle|tk]]) 23:31, 23 April 2024 (UTC) |
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===Third draft (3.2)=== |
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::::::::Interesting isn't it? Unlike the US, personal wealth, special interests and campaign finance plays virtually no part in UK politics or campaigning. Elections are centrally funded from the public purse and all members' interests have to be openly declared in a public register so it's not really the same thing. <b>[[User:AulaTPN|<font color="#89f">A</font><font color="#78e">u</font><font color="#67d">l</font><font color="#56c">a</font>]][[User talk:AulaTPN|<sup><font color="#45b">T</font><font color="#34a">P</font><font color="#239">N</font></sup>]]</b> 18:17, 8 July 2007 (UTC) |
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! style="width: 30em;" | [https://w.wiki/9p2j Current] 454 words |
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{{Main|Political views of J. K. Rowling#Transgender rights}} |
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Rowling's responses to proposed changes to UK gender recognition laws,<ref name= Milne2020>{{cite web|first1= Amber |last1=Milne|first2 = Rachel| last2 =Savage | url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-lgbt-rowling-explainer-trfn-idUSKBN23I3AI | title=Explainer: J. K. Rowling and trans women in single-sex spaces: what's the furore? | publisher=[[Reuters]] | date=11 June 2020 | access-date=6 April 2021 }}</ref><ref name= Brooks2020>{{Cite news|last=Brooks|first=Libby|date=11 June 2020|title=Why is JK Rowling speaking out now on sex and gender debate? |url= http://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/jun/11/why-is-jk-rowling-speaking-out-now-on-sex-and-gender-debate|access-date=14 January 2022 |work= [[The Guardian]] }}</ref>{{efn|The UK laws and proposed changes are the [[Gender Recognition Act 2004]], the [[Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill]] and the related [[Equality Act 2010]].{{sfn|Pedersen|2022|loc=Abstract}}{{sfn|Suissa|Sullivan|2021|pp=66–69}}{{sfn|Duggan|2021|loc=PDF pp. 14–15 (160–161)}} }} and her views on [[sexual identity|sex]] and [[gender identity|gender]], have provoked controversy.{{sfn|Duggan|2021|loc=PDF pp. 14–15 (160–161)}} Her statements have divided [[Feminist views on transgender topics|feminists]];<ref name=Kottasova2019>{{cite news |first1= Ivana |last1= Kottasová |first2= Scottie | last2= Andrew|title= J.K. Rowling's 'transphobia' tweet row spotlights a fight between equality campaigners and radical feminists |publisher= [[CNN]] |date= 20 December 2019 |access-date= 29 March 2022 | url= https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/20/uk/jk-rowling-transgender-explainer-intl-gbr/index.html}}</ref><ref name=BBC2020JKRResponds>{{cite news |url= https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-53002557 |publisher= [[BBC News]] |title= JK Rowling responds to trans tweets criticism |date= 11 June 2020 |access-date= 29 March 2022}}</ref><ref>{{cite news | url=https://www.newstatesman.com/international/2020/09/judith-butler-culture-wars-jk-rowling-and-living-anti-intellectual-times | title=Judith Butler on the culture wars, JK Rowling and living in 'anti-intellectual times'|first=Alona |last=Ferber | work=[[New Statesman]] | date=22 September 2020 | access-date=26 March 2021}}</ref> fuelled<!-- This article uses British spelling --> debates on [[freedom of speech]]{{sfn|Pape|2022|pp=229–230}}<ref>{{cite web|title=BBC nominates J.K.Rowling's controversial essay of trans rights for award|url=https://www.dw.com/en/bbc-nominates-jk-rowlings-controversial-essay-on-trans-rights-for-award/a-56014673|website=[[DW News]]|date=22 December 2020|access-date=22 December 2020}}</ref> and [[cancel culture]];{{sfn|Schwirblat|Freberg|Freberg|2022|pp=367–369}} and prompted declarations of [[Transgender rights movement|support for transgender people]] from the literary,<ref>UK, US, Canada, Ireland: {{cite news |last= Flood |first= Alison |date=9 October 2020|title= Stephen King, Margaret Atwood and Roxane Gay champion trans rights in open letter|url= https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/oct/09/stephen-king-margaret-atwood-roxane-gay-champion-trans-rights-open-letter-jk-rowling |work= [[The Guardian]] |access-date= 2 April 2022}}</ref> arts<ref>{{cite magazine|last= Rowley |first= Glenn |title= Artists fire back at J.K. Rowling's anti-trans remarks, share messages in support of the community|url= https://www.billboard.com/culture/pride/artists-fire-back-jk-rowling-anti-trans-remarks-9400386/|magazine= [[Billboard (magazine)|Billboard]]|date= 11 June 2020 |access-date= 7 April 2022}}</ref> and culture sectors.<ref>Culture sector: |
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* [[Universal Destinations & Experiences]], [[Warner Bros.]] and [[Scholastic Corporation]]: {{cite news |last1= Siegel |first1= Tatiana |last2= Abramovitch |first2= Seth |date= 10 June 2020 |title= Universal Parks responds to J.K. Rowling tweets: 'Our core values include diversity, inclusion and respect' |work= [[The Hollywood Reporter]] |url= https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/lifestyle/lifestyle-news/universal-parks-responds-jk-rowling-tweets-core-values-include-diversity-inclusion-respect-1297845/ |access-date= 3 April 2022|ref=none}} |
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* [[Warner Bros. Interactive Entertainment]] president: {{cite news |last= Skrebels |first= Joe |title= WB Interactive president responds to ongoing debate over supporting JK Rowling |date=1 October 2020 |url= https://www.ign.com/articles/wb-interactive-president-responds-to-ongoing-debate-over-supporting-jk-rowling |publisher= [[IGN]] |access-date= 2 April 2022|ref=none}}</ref> |
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When [[Maya Forstater]]'s employment contract with the London branch of the [[Center for Global Development]] was not renewed after she tweeted [[Feminist views on transgender topics#Gender-critical feminism and trans-exclusionary radical feminism|gender-critical views]],{{sfn|Pugh|2020|p=7}}<ref name=Stack2019>{{Cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/19/world/europe/jk-rowling-maya-forstater-transgender.html|title=J.K. Rowling criticized after tweeting support for anti-transgender researcher|last=Stack|first=Liam|date=19 December 2019|work=[[The New York Times]]|access-date=13 June 2020| url-access=registration|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200613012737/https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/19/world/europe/jk-rowling-maya-forstater-transgender.html|archive-date=13 June 2020|url-status=live}}</ref> Rowling responded in December 2019 with a tweet that [[transgender]] people should live their lives as they pleased in "peace and security", but questioned women being "force[d] out of their jobs for stating that sex is real".<ref name=Stack2019/>{{efn|A tribunal ruled in 2021 that Forstater's gender-critical views were protected under the 2010 UK [[Equality Act 2010|Equality Act]].<ref name=Faulkner2021>{{cite news |first= Doug |last= Faulkner |url= https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-57426579 |title= Maya Forstater: woman wins tribunal appeal over transgender tweets |publisher= [[BBC News]] |date= 10 June 2021 |access-date= 26 March 2022}}</ref><ref name=Siddique2021>{{cite news |first= Haroon |last= Siddique |date= 10 June 2021 |title= Gender-critical views are a protected belief, appeal tribunal rules|url= https://www.theguardian.com/law/2021/jun/10/gender-critical-views-protected-belief-appeal-tribunal-rules-maya-forstater |work= [[The Guardian]] |access-date= 26 March 2022}}</ref> In July 2022, a new tribunal decision was published (''[[Forstater v Center for Global Development Europe]]'') ruling that Forstater had suffered direct discrimination from her employer.<ref>{{cite web |title=Maya Forstater: Woman discriminated against over trans tweets, tribunal rules|date=6 July 2022 |url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-62061929 |publisher=BBC |access-date=6 July 2022}}</ref>}} In another controversial tweet in June 2020,<ref name=Petter2020>{{Cite web|last= Petter|first=Olivia|date=17 September 2020|title=Mermaids writes open letter to JK Rowling following her recent comments on trans people|url=https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/mermaids-jk-rowling-transphobia-transgender-sexual-abuse-domestic-letter-a9565176.html|access-date=26 March 2022|work=[[The Independent]] |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200615235531/https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/mermaids-jk-rowling-transphobia-transgender-sexual-abuse-domestic-letter-a9565176.html |archive-date=15 June 2020}}</ref> Rowling mocked an article for using the phrase "[[people who menstruate]]",<ref name=Gross2020>{{Cite news|last=Gross|first=Jenny|date=7 June 2020|title=Daniel Radcliffe criticizes J.K. Rowling's anti-transgender tweets|work=[[The New York Times]]|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/07/arts/Jk-Rowling-controversy.html |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200607221400/https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/07/arts/Jk-Rowling-controversy.html |archive-date=7 June 2020 |url-access=subscription |url-status=live|access-date=6 January 2022 }}</ref> and tweeted that [[women's rights]] and "lived reality" would be "erased" if "sex isn't real".{{sfn|Duggan|2021|loc=PDF pp. 14–15}}<ref>{{cite magazine|url=https://variety.com/2020/film/news/jk-rowling-transphobic-tweets-controversy-1234627081/|title=J.K. Rowling gets backlash over anti-trans tweets|last=Moreau|first=Jordan|magazine=[[Variety (magazine)|Variety]]|date=6 June 2020|access-date=13 June 2020|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200607005447/https://variety.com/2020/film/news/jk-rowling-transphobic-tweets-controversy-1234627081/|archive-date=7 June 2020|url-status=live}}</ref> |
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:::::::::I can't quite remember why we revolted now.... (snark)[[User:Libertycookies|Libertycookies]] 20:38, 9 July 2007 (UTC) |
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[[LGBT]] charities and leading actors of the [[Wizarding World]] franchise condemned Rowling's comments;<ref name=Waterson2020>{{Cite news|last= Waterson |first= Jim|title= Children's news website apologises to JK Rowling over trans tweet row|url= https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jul/23/childrens-news-website-apologises-jk-rowling-trans-tweet-day|date= 23 July 2020 |access-date=26 March 2022|work=[[The Guardian]] |quote= Rowling's comments on gender were condemned by LGBT charities and the leading stars of her Harry Potter film franchise.}}</ref><ref name=Lang2020>{{cite magazine |last=Lang |first=Brent |title= Eddie Redmayne criticizes J.K. Rowling's anti-trans tweets |date= 10 June 2020 |url= https://variety.com/2020/film/news/eddie-redmayne-jk-rowling-anti-trans-tweets-harry-potter-fantastic-beasts-1234630226/ |magazine= [[Variety (magazine)|Variety]]|access-date=28 March 2022 |quote= Eddie Redmayne, star of the ''Fantastic Beasts'' franchise, is speaking out against J.K. Rowling's anti-trans tweets, as the controversy surrounding the author and her beliefs continues to swirl.}}</ref>{{efn| [[Daniel Radcliffe]], [[Emma Watson]], [[Rupert Grint]],<ref name= Hibberd2021/> [[Eddie Redmayne]]<ref name=Lang2020/> and others expressed support for the transgender community in reaction to Rowling's comments;<ref>{{cite magazine |first= Maureen |last= Lenker|title= Every Harry Potter actor who's spoken out against J.K. Rowling's controversial trans comments |date= 10 June 2020 |access-date= 1 April 2022 |magazine= [[Entertainment Weekly]]|url=https://ew.com/movies/every-harry-potter-actor-whos-spoken-out-against-j-k-rowlings-controversial-transgender-comments/ }}</ref><ref>{{cite news |first= Maggie |last= Baska|title= Stephen Fry defends 'friendship' with JK Rowling: 'I'm sorry that people are upset' |date= 20 May 2021 |url= https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2021/05/20/stephen-fry-jk-rowling-friend-harry-potter-jordan-b-peterson-podcast-trans/ |publisher= [[PinkNews]] |access-date= 29 March 2022}}</ref> [[Helena Bonham Carter]],<ref name=Evans2022> {{cite news |first= Greg |last= Evans |url= https://deadline.com/2022/11/helena-bonham-carter-johnny-depp-j-k-rowling-1235182523/ |title= Helena Bonham Carter says Johnny Depp 'completely vindicated' in defamation trial, and J.K. Rowling 'hounded' for transgender stance |work= [[Deadline Hollywood]] |access-date= 18 December 2022}}</ref> [[Robbie Coltrane]],<ref>{{cite news |last= Yasharoff |first= Hannah |title= How the 'Harry Potter' reunion addresses author J.K. Rowling's anti-trans controversy |date= 30 December 2021|url= https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/movies/2021/12/30/harry-potter-return-hogwarts-20th-reunion-emma-watson-jk-rowling-controversy/9042955002/ |work= [[USA Today]] |access-date= 2 April 2022}}</ref> and [[Ralph Fiennes]] supported Rowling.<ref name= Hibberd2021>{{cite news |first= James |last= Hibberd |url= https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/ralph-fiennes-defends-j-k-rowling-amid-trans-controversy-says-backlash-is-disturbing-4151944/ |title= Ralph Fiennes defends J.K. rowling amid trans controversy, says backlash is 'disturbing' |date= 17 March 2021 |access-date=26 March 2022 |work= [[The Hollywood Reporter]]}}</ref>}} [[GLAAD]] called them "cruel" and "inaccurate".<ref name= Yasharoff2020> {{cite news |last= Yasharoff |first=Hannah|url= https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/celebrities/2020/06/07/j-k-rowling-harry-potter-author-slammed-transphobic-comments/3169833001/ |title= J.K. Rowling reveals she's a sexual assault survivor; Emma Watson reacts to trans comments |work= [[USA Today]] |date= 10 June 2020 |access-date= 27 March 2022}}</ref> Rowling responded with an essay on her website<ref name=RowlingReasons>{{cite web|title=J.K. Rowling writes about her reasons for speaking out on sex and gender issues |url=https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/ |publisher=JK Rowling |date=10 June 2020 |access-date=10 June 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200610182056/https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/ |archive-date=10 June 2020 |url-status=live}}</ref> in which she stated that her views on women's rights were informed by her experience as a survivor of domestic abuse and [[sexual assault]].<ref name=Shirbon2020>{{cite news |last1=Shirbon |first1=Estelle |title=J.K. Rowling reveals past abuse and defends right to speak on trans issues |url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-rowling/j-k-rowling-reveals-past-abuse-and-defends-right-to-speak-on-trans-issues-idUSKBN23H2XI |publisher=[[Reuters]] |date=10 June 2020 |access-date=13 June 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200611200348/https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-rowling/j-k-rowling-reveals-past-abuse-and-defends-right-to-speak-on-trans-issues-idUSKBN23H2XI |archive-date=11 June 2020 |url-status=live}}</ref> While affirming that "the majority of trans-identified people not only pose zero threat to others, but are vulnerable ... Trans people need and deserve protection", she believed that it would be unsafe to allow "any man who believes or feels he's a woman" into bathrooms or changing rooms.<ref name= Shirbon2020/><ref>{{cite news |last1=Gonzalez |first1=Sandra |title=J.K. Rowling explains her gender identity views in essay amid backlash |url=https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/10/entertainment/jk-rowling/index.html |access-date=16 September 2023 |work=[[CNN]] |date=10 June 2020}}</ref><ref>{{cite news |last1=Garrand |first1=Danielle |title=J.K. Rowling defends herself after accusations of making "anti-trans" comments on Twitter |url=https://www.cbsnews.com/news/j-k-rowling-defends-anti-trans-comments-twitter/ |access-date=16 September 2023 |work=[[CBS News]] |date=11 June 2020}}</ref> Writing of her own experiences with [[sexism]] and [[misogyny]],<ref>{{cite news |first= Sian |last= Cain |date= 11 June 2020 |title= JK Rowling reveals she is survivor of domestic abuse and sexual assault |url= https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/jun/10/jk-rowling-says-survivor-of-domestic-abuse-sexual-assault |work= [[The Guardian]] |access-date= 29 March 2022}}</ref> she wondered if the "allure of escaping womanhood" would have led her to [[Gender transitioning|transition]] if she had been born later, and said that trans activism was "seeking to erode 'woman' as a political and biological class".<ref name=DAlessandro2020>{{cite news |last=D'Alessandro |first=Anthony |title=J.K. Rowling defends trans statements in lengthy essay, reveals she's a sexual assault survivor & says 'trans people need and deserve protection' |url=https://deadline.com/2020/06/j-k-rowling-defends-trans-statements-essay-1202955524/ |access-date=5 January 2022 |publisher=[[Deadline Hollywood]] |date=10 June 2020}}</ref> |
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::::::::::Something to do with a tax on tea and a King driven mad by [[Porphyria]]... <b>[[User:AulaTPN|<font color="#89f">A</font><font color="#78e">u</font><font color="#67d">l</font><font color="#56c">a</font>]][[User talk:AulaTPN|<sup><font color="#45b">T</font><font color="#34a">P</font><font color="#239">N</font></sup>]]</b> |
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Rowling's statements – beginning in 2017{{sfn|Duggan|2021|loc=PDF pp. 14–15 (160–161)}}<ref name= Jacobs2023>{{cite news |last= Jacobs |first= Julia |title= Hogwarts legacy can't cast aside debate over J. K. Rowling |url= https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/09/arts/hogwarts-legacy-jk-rowling.html |date= 9 February 2023 |work = [[The New York Times]] |access-date= 14 July 2023}}</ref><ref name= Spangler2023>{{cite news |last= Spangler|first= Todd |title= J.K. Rowling addresses backlash to her anti-trans comments in new podcast: 'I never set out to upset anyone' |url= https://variety.com/2023/digital/news/jk-rowling-anti-trans-comments-podcast-witch-trials-1235522301/ |date= 14 February 2023|work= [[Variety (magazine)|Variety]]|access-date= 14 July 2023}}</ref> – have been called transphobic,<ref name= Breznican2023>{{cite news |last= Breznican |first= Anthony |title= J.K. Rowling will oversee a new streaming ''Harry Potter'' series |url= https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2023/04/jk-rowling-harry-potter-series|date= 12 April 2023 |work= [[Vanity Fair (magazine)|Vanity Fair]] |access-date= 14 July 2023}}</ref><ref name=Rosenblatt2020>{{Cite web|last = Rosenblatt| first =Kalhan |title=J.K. Rowling doubles down in what some critics call a 'transphobic manifesto' |url= https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/j-k-rowling-doubles-down-what-some-critics-call-transphobic-n1229351|date= 10 June 2020 |access-date=19 January 2022|publisher=[[NBC News]] }}</ref> and she has been referred to as a [[TERF (acronym)|TERF]], a "trans-exclusionary radical feminist".<ref name= Rosenblatt2020/>{{sfn|Steinfeld|2020|pp=34–35}}{{sfn|Schwirblat|Freberg|Freberg|2022|pp=367–368}} She has rejected these characterisations and the notion that she holds animosity towards transgender people, saying that her viewpoint has been misunderstood.<ref name=RowlingReasons/><ref name= Breznican2023/><ref name= Spangler2023/> Criticism of Rowling's views has come from the ''Harry Potter'' fansites [[MuggleNet]] and [[The Leaky Cauldron (website)|The Leaky Cauldron]];<ref name=FanSites>{{cite news|url=https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/03/harry-potter-fan-sites-distance-themselves-from-jk-rowling-over-transgender-rights|title=Harry Potter fan sites distance themselves from JK Rowling over transgender rights|publisher=[[Reuters]]|work=[[The Guardian]]|date=3 July 2020|access-date=3 July 2020|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200703011204/https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/03/harry-potter-fan-sites-distance-themselves-from-jk-rowling-over-transgender-rights|archive-date=3 July 2020|url-status=live}}</ref> and the charities [[Mermaids (charity)|Mermaids]],<ref name=Petter2020/> [[Stonewall (charity)|Stonewall]],<ref>{{cite news | url=https://www.newstatesman.com/long-reads/2021/11/the-battle-for-stonewall-the-lgbt-charity-and-the-uks-gender-wars | title=The battle for Stonewall: the LGBT charity and the UK's gender wars | work=[[New Statesman]]|first=Gaby |last=Hinsliff|date=3 November 2021 | access-date=24 November 2021}}</ref> and [[Human Rights Campaign]].<ref>{{cite news |first= Elise |last= Brisco |title=Dave Chappelle says he's 'Team TERF,' defends J.K. Rowling in new Netflix comedy special|url= https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/tv/2021/10/05/dave-chappelle-terf-defends-j-k-rowling-netflix-special/6002017001/ |work= [[USA Today]] |date= 8 October 2021|access-date= 29 March 2022}}</ref> After [[Kerry Kennedy]] expressed "profound disappointment" in her views, Rowling returned the [[Ripple of Hope Award]] given to her by the Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights organisation.<ref name=RFKAward>{{cite news |last=Flood|first=Alison |url= https://amp.theguardian.com/books/2020/aug/28/jk-rowling-robert-f-kennedy-human-rights-award-trans-views|title=JK Rowling returns human rights award to group that denounces her trans views |work=[[The Guardian]]|date=28 August 2020|access-date=28 August 2020}}</ref> |
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:::::::A good autobiographical article mentioning "[[marxist]] readings of Harry's adventures." A lot of articles like this one assume that she is guarded about her personal life because she is cold. She's contradicted that perception in other interviews, and more likely she just doesn't want to give the ending of the series away by saying too much. http://arts.independent.co.uk/books/features/article2737970.ece [[User:Libertycookies|Libertycookies]] 12:55, 8 July 2007 (UTC) |
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After the [[Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Act 2021]] had come into force in April 2024, Rowling, who resides in Edinburgh, tested the law by posting on [[Twitter|X]] a list of transgender women, and wrote that they were "men, every last one of them".<ref>{{Cite web|url=https://deadline.com/2024/04/jk-rowling-scotland-hate-crime-law-1235872981/|title=J.K. Rowling Mocks Trans Women To Defy Scotland’s New Hate Crime Law: “I Look Forward To Being Arrested”|website=deadline.com|access-date=3 April 2024|archive-date=1 April 2024|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20240401190451/https://deadline.com/2024/04/jk-rowling-scotland-hate-crime-law-1235872981/|url-status=live}}</ref> [[Police Scotland]] stated it had not received any complaints over the posts<ref>{{Cite news |last=Cook |first=James |date=1 April 2024 |title=JK Rowling in ‘arrest me’ challenge over hate crime law |url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c51j64lk2l8o |work=BBC}}</ref> and that "no action [would] be taken" as they were not illegal.<ref>{{Cite news |last=Bonar |first=Megan |date=2024-04-02 |title=JK Rowling hate law posts not criminal, police say |url=https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-68712471 |access-date=2024-04-02 |work=[[BBC News]] |language=en-GB}}</ref><ref>{{Cite news |last=Learmonth |first=Andrew |date=2024-04-03 |title=Police Scotland will not log 'hate incident' against Rowling or FM |url=https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/24229707.police-scotland-will-not-log-hate-incident-jk-rowling/?ref=twtrec |access-date=2024-04-03 |work=[[The Herald (Scotland)]] |language=en-GB}}</ref> |
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::::::::From the RfC: Am I to understand that the EW reference where she discusses her dislike of bigotry and her statements on moral significance are considered inappropriate because they will 'need balancing'? Is that a decent summary of the problem? [[User:Hornplease|Hornplease]] 09:39, 13 July 2007 (UTC) |
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:::::::::Not that they will need balancing per se, but that they are irrelevant unless they are part of a larger point. And what point can one make with that statement? That JK Rowling dislikes bigotry? Ok, that's all well and good, but what does it have to do with her life, with her writings or with her as a person? Making the point that JK Rowling is a good person is very flattering, but it's also entirely subjective, and it leads people who ''don't'' think JK Rowling is a good person to add their own reasons why. That's why subjective statements really aren't useful in biographies. It also leads to editors inventing entire lives for other people by taking various facts and quotes and drawing conclusions from them that aren't actually in the sources themselves. Stick to the facts, leave opinions out. [[User:Serendipodous|Serendipodous]] 09:54, 13 July 2007 (UTC) |
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{{Main|Political views of J. K. Rowling#Transgender rights}} |
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::::::::::I would imagine the point is that bigotry and tyranny are central to her work. Which is relevant. Naturally, we can't draw our own conclusions, but if an article on her influences suggests these are major political influences, then I don't think your claim that they would add nothing to the biography stands up. [[User:Hornplease|Hornplease]] 10:41, 13 July 2007 (UTC) |
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Rowling has controversial views on [[sexual identity|sex]] and [[gender identity|gender]].{{sfn|Duggan|2021|loc=PDF pp. 14–15 (160–161)}} She has been called transphobic,<ref name= Breznican2023>{{cite news |last= Breznican |first= Anthony |title= J.K. Rowling will oversee a new streaming ''Harry Potter'' series |url= https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2023/04/jk-rowling-harry-potter-series|date= 12 April 2023 |work= [[Vanity Fair (magazine)|Vanity Fair]] |access-date= 14 July 2023}}</ref> called a [[TERF (acronym)|TERF]] ("trans-exclusionary radical feminist") and a [[gender-critical feminist]].{{sfn|Whited|2024|p=7}}{{sfn|Steinfeld|2020|pp=34–35}}{{sfn|Schwirblat|Freberg|Freberg|2022|pp=367–368}} particularly since 2019 when she expressed support for [[Maya Forstater]] which sparked controversy, shocked her fans,{{sfn|Whited|2024|pp=6-8}} divided [[Feminist views on transgender topics|feminists]],<ref name=Kottasova2019>{{cite news |first1= Ivana |last1= Kottasová |first2= Scottie | last2= Andrew|title= J.K. Rowling's 'transphobia' tweet row spotlights a fight between equality campaigners and radical feminists |publisher= [[CNN]] |date= 20 December 2019 |access-date= 29 March 2022 | url= https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/20/uk/jk-rowling-transgender-explainer-intl-gbr/index.html}}</ref><ref name=BBC2020JKRResponds>{{cite news |url= https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-53002557 |publisher= [[BBC News]] |title= JK Rowling responds to trans tweets criticism |date= 11 June 2020 |access-date= 29 March 2022}}</ref><ref>{{cite news | url=https://www.newstatesman.com/international/2020/09/judith-butler-culture-wars-jk-rowling-and-living-anti-intellectual-times | title=Judith Butler on the culture wars, JK Rowling and living in 'anti-intellectual times'|first=Alona |last=Ferber | work=[[New Statesman]] | date=22 September 2020 | access-date=26 March 2021}}</ref> fuelled<!-- This article uses British spelling --> debates on [[freedom of speech]]{{sfn|Pape|2022|pp=229–230}}<ref>{{cite web|title=BBC nominates J.K.Rowling's controversial essay of trans rights for award|url=https://www.dw.com/en/bbc-nominates-jk-rowlings-controversial-essay-on-trans-rights-for-award/a-56014673|website=[[DW News]]|date=22 December 2020|access-date=22 December 2020}}</ref> and [[cancel culture]],{{sfn|Schwirblat|Freberg|Freberg|2022|pp=367–369}} and prompted declarations of [[Transgender rights movement|support for transgender people]] from the literary,<ref>UK, US, Canada, Ireland: {{cite news |last= Flood |first= Alison |date=9 October 2020|title= Stephen King, Margaret Atwood and Roxane Gay champion trans rights in open letter|url= https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/oct/09/stephen-king-margaret-atwood-roxane-gay-champion-trans-rights-open-letter-jk-rowling |work= [[The Guardian]] |access-date= 2 April 2022}}</ref> arts<ref>{{cite magazine|last= Rowley |first= Glenn |title= Artists fire back at J.K. Rowling's anti-trans remarks, share messages in support of the community|url= https://www.billboard.com/culture/pride/artists-fire-back-jk-rowling-anti-trans-remarks-9400386/|magazine= [[Billboard (magazine)|Billboard]]|date= 11 June 2020 |access-date= 7 April 2022}}</ref> and culture sectors.<ref>Culture sector: |
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:::::::::::If bigotry and tyranny are central to her ''work'', then that is best discussed in the [[Harry Potter]] article, not here. If bigotry and tyranny played some role in her biography (if, say, she was a holocaust survivor), then they might be relevant. [[User:Serendipodous|Serendipodous]] 10:43, 13 July 2007 (UTC) |
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* [[Universal Destinations & Experiences]], [[Warner Bros.]] and [[Scholastic Corporation]]: {{cite news |last1= Siegel |first1= Tatiana |last2= Abramovitch |first2= Seth |date= 10 June 2020 |title= Universal Parks responds to J.K. Rowling tweets: 'Our core values include diversity, inclusion and respect' |work= [[The Hollywood Reporter]] |url= https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/lifestyle/lifestyle-news/universal-parks-responds-jk-rowling-tweets-core-values-include-diversity-inclusion-respect-1297845/ |access-date= 3 April 2022|ref=none}} |
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::::::::::::If that's your claim, then it's absolutely incorrect. Major influences (including political concerns) on an author's style and choice of subject are the proper area of the author's biography. Consider, for example, [[Robert A. Heinlein]]. I'm sorry, but you haven't a leg to stand on here.[[User:Hornplease|Hornplease]] 10:54, 13 July 2007 (UTC) |
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* [[Warner Bros. Interactive Entertainment]] president: {{cite news |last= Skrebels |first= Joe |title= WB Interactive president responds to ongoing debate over supporting JK Rowling |date=1 October 2020 |url= https://www.ign.com/articles/wb-interactive-president-responds-to-ongoing-debate-over-supporting-jk-rowling |publisher= [[IGN]] |access-date= 2 April 2022|ref=none}}</ref> Rowling has said she would rather go to jail than use a trans woman's preferred pronouns.<ref>{{cite news |last=Chilton |first=Louis |date=19 October 2023 |title=JK Rowling claims she would ‘happily’ spend two years in prison for misgendering a trans person |url=https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/news/jk-rowling-trans-prison-b2432406.html |work=[[The Independent]] |access-date=21 April 2024}}</ref> Rowling wrote that she stood with Forstater, whose employment contract with the London branch of the [[Center for Global Development]] was not renewed after she expressed gender-critical views.{{sfn|Pugh|2020|p=7}}<ref name=Stack2019>{{Cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/19/world/europe/jk-rowling-maya-forstater-transgender.html|title=J.K. Rowling criticized after tweeting support for anti-transgender researcher|last=Stack|first=Liam|date=19 December 2019|work=[[The New York Times]]|access-date=13 June 2020| url-access=registration|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200613012737/https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/19/world/europe/jk-rowling-maya-forstater-transgender.html|archive-date=13 June 2020|url-status=live}}</ref><!-- and misgendered colleagues.{{sfn|Henderson|2022|p=223}} --> Rowling went on to write that [[transgender]] people should live in "peace and security", but questioned women being "force[d] out of their jobs for stating that sex is real".<ref name=Stack2019/>{{efn|A tribunal ruled in 2021 that Forstater's gender-critical views were protected under the 2010 UK [[Equality Act 2010|Equality Act]].<ref name=Faulkner2021>{{cite news |first= Doug |last= Faulkner |url= https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-57426579 |title= Maya Forstater: woman wins tribunal appeal over transgender tweets |publisher= [[BBC News]] |date= 10 June 2021 |access-date= 26 March 2022}}</ref><ref name=Siddique2021>{{cite news |first= Haroon |last= Siddique |date= 10 June 2021 |title= Gender-critical views are a protected belief, appeal tribunal rules|url= https://www.theguardian.com/law/2021/jun/10/gender-critical-views-protected-belief-appeal-tribunal-rules-maya-forstater |work= [[The Guardian]] |access-date= 26 March 2022}}</ref> |
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:::::::::::Three things: First, Heinlein is dead. Rowling is a living person. The rules for living people are far stricter than the rules for dead people; there is far less room for opinions and analysis. Second, Heinlien has a complete body of work to draw on; Rowling hasn't even finished her first series. Making claims about themes in Rowling's work would be like giving a geological account of the entire Earth based solely on the rocks found in Elizabeth, New Jersey. Thirdly, a generation of critics has analysed Heinlien's corpus, giving us a plethora of secondary sources to draw on. Nothing like that exists for Rowling, and any critical analysis we do would be our own opinions, which would be original research. Additionally, I ask you to refrain from making personal attacks. Wikipedia isn't an international insult competition. [[User:Serendipodous|Serendipodous]] 11:03, 13 July 2007 (UTC) |
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::::::::::::Sorry but Serendipodous is correct. As previously discussed, the fact that an author explores certain themes a creative work doesn't allow us to make the leap of [[WP:OR|original research]] required to state that they are an influence on or espoused by the author themselves. Also as Rowling is still alive, [[WP:BLP]] places much stricter constraints on what material can be in her biography. As it stands the correct place, if anywhere, to discuss these themes is in the articles for the works themselves. <b>[[User:AulaTPN|<font color="#89f">A</font><font color="#78e">u</font><font color="#67d">l</font><font color="#56c">a</font>]][[User talk:AulaTPN|<sup><font color="#45b">T</font><font color="#34a">P</font><font color="#239">N</font></sup>]]</b> 11:30, 13 July 2007 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::::First, BLP says nothing about non-contentious, sourced material. Using it to keep out sourced, relevant analysis is inappropriate. Second, the fact that Rowling has written only one series so far is insufficient reason to assume that she does not have a coherent style. Certainly, if some critics writing in reliable sources do seem to suppose so, it is not OR to include that. Third, any original research is naturally out. However, if articles have been written attempting to analyse her style and influences, and quoting her in the process, those count as reliable secondary sources. Fourth, I fail to see where a personal attack comes in. Saying some doesn't have a leg to stand on isn't an insult, its a commonly used phrase. [[User:Hornplease|Hornplease]] 13:02, 13 July 2007 (UTC) |
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::::::::::::::As are most insults. On topic, how many critics would you need to employ before you could claim you weren't making a personal point? One? Two? Ten? If I wanted to prove that Rowling is a Marxist, a social conservative, or a Satanist, I could certainly find secondary sources to back those claims up. So when does a critical analysis of a book series become definitive? No single critical consensus has emerged about the themes in Rowling's work, partly because very few serious critics have bothered to engage in any kind of literary analysis of ''Harry Potter'', partly because her total output is less than 4000 pages, and partly because she's only been published for about a decade. The dust still hasn't settled yet. [[User:Serendipodous|Serendipodous]] 13:34, 13 July 2007 (UTC) |
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In July 2022, a new tribunal decision was published (''[[Forstater v Center for Global Development Europe]]'') ruling that Forstater had suffered direct discrimination from her employer.<ref>{{cite web |title=Maya Forstater: Woman discriminated against over trans tweets, tribunal rules|date=6 July 2022 |url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-62061929 |publisher=BBC |access-date=6 July 2022}}</ref>}} ''Harry Potter'' scholar Lana Whited writes that in the next six months "Rowling herself fanned the flames as she became increasingly vocal".{{sfn|Whited|2024|p=6}} In June 2020,{{sfn|Whited|2024|p=6}} Rowling mocked the phrase "[[people who menstruate]]",<ref name=Gross2020>{{Cite news|last=Gross|first=Jenny|date=7 June 2020|title=Daniel Radcliffe criticizes J.K. Rowling's anti-transgender tweets|work=[[The New York Times]]|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/07/arts/Jk-Rowling-controversy.html |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200607221400/https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/07/arts/Jk-Rowling-controversy.html |archive-date=7 June 2020 |url-access=subscription |url-status=live|access-date=6 January 2022 }}</ref> and tweeted that [[women's rights]] and "lived reality" would be "erased" if "sex isn't real".{{sfn|Duggan|2021|loc=PDF pp. 14–15}}{{sfn|Pugh|2020|p=7}} Potter scholar Tolanda Henderson writes the June 2020 post revealed Rowling's "stance that invalidates nonbinary people like me".{{sfn|Henderson|2022|p=224}} |
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==== Reputable Sources (a.k.a because I'm tired of scrolling) ==== |
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There have been substantial negative effects to Rowling's reputation: fans turned away from her work, boycotted events, and publishers became reticent to accept her work.{{sfn|Whited|2024|p=8}} Criticism of Rowling's views has come from the ''Harry Potter'' fansites [[MuggleNet]] and [[The Leaky Cauldron (website)|The Leaky Cauldron]],{{sfn|Henderson|2022|p=224}} and the charities [[Mermaids (charity)|Mermaids]],<ref name=Petter2020>{{Cite web|last= Petter|first=Olivia|date=17 September 2020|title=Mermaids writes open letter to JK Rowling following her recent comments on trans people|url=https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/mermaids-jk-rowling-transphobia-transgender-sexual-abuse-domestic-letter-a9565176.html|access-date=26 March 2022|work=[[The Independent]] |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200615235531/https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/mermaids-jk-rowling-transphobia-transgender-sexual-abuse-domestic-letter-a9565176.html |archive-date=15 June 2020}}</ref> [[Stonewall (charity)|Stonewall]],<ref>{{cite news | url=https://www.newstatesman.com/long-reads/2021/11/the-battle-for-stonewall-the-lgbt-charity-and-the-uks-gender-wars | title=The battle for Stonewall: the LGBT charity and the UK's gender wars | work=[[New Statesman]]|first=Gaby |last=Hinsliff|date=3 November 2021 | access-date=24 November 2021}}</ref> and [[Human Rights Campaign]].<ref>{{cite news |first= Elise |last= Brisco |title=Dave Chappelle says he's 'Team TERF,' defends J.K. Rowling in new Netflix comedy special|url= https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/tv/2021/10/05/dave-chappelle-terf-defends-j-k-rowling-netflix-special/6002017001/ |work= [[USA Today]] |date= 8 October 2021|access-date= 29 March 2022}}</ref> [[LGBT]] charities the [[Wizarding World]] spoke out against her stance.<ref name=Waterson2020>{{Cite news|last= Waterson |first= Jim|title= Children's news website apologises to JK Rowling over trans tweet row|url= https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jul/23/childrens-news-website-apologises-jk-rowling-trans-tweet-day|date= 23 July 2020 |access-date=26 March 2022|work=[[The Guardian]] |quote= Rowling's comments on gender were condemned by LGBT charities and the leading stars of her Harry Potter film franchise.}}</ref> [[Daniel Radcliffe]], [[Emma Watson]], [[Rupert Grint]], and [[Eddie Redmayne]] and others expressed support for the transgender community.{{sfn|Borah|2024|p=375}} [[GLAAD]] called the the comments "cruel" and "inaccurate".<ref name= Yasharoff2020> {{cite news |last= Yasharoff |first=Hannah|url= https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/celebrities/2020/06/07/j-k-rowling-harry-potter-author-slammed-transphobic-comments/3169833001/ |title= J.K. Rowling reveals she's a sexual assault survivor; Emma Watson reacts to trans comments |work= [[USA Today]] |date= 10 June 2020 |access-date= 27 March 2022}}</ref> After [[Kerry Kennedy]] expressed "profound disappointment" in her views, Rowling returned the [[Ripple of Hope Award]] given to her by the Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights organisation.<ref name=RFKAward>{{cite news |last=Flood|first=Alison |url= https://amp.theguardian.com/books/2020/aug/28/jk-rowling-robert-f-kennedy-human-rights-award-trans-views|title=JK Rowling returns human rights award to group that denounces her trans views |work=[[The Guardian]]|date=28 August 2020|access-date=28 August 2020}}</ref> |
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Too much indentation! I think the point is that at this stage in the game, the amount of serious literary analysis by '''informed''' reviewers is far too thin on the ground to push any particular viewpoint without it failing any reasonable test of [[WP:SYNTH]]. I hasten to add that this is the consensus opinion of a considerable group of editors and admins who have become involved over recent months - just in case you were worried that there were some 'ownership issues' going on. I honestly don't believe that to be the case. <b>[[User:AulaTPN|<font color="#89f">A</font><font color="#78e">u</font><font color="#67d">l</font><font color="#56c">a</font>]][[User talk:AulaTPN|<sup><font color="#45b">T</font><font color="#34a">P</font><font color="#239">N</font></sup>]]</b> 13:44, 13 July 2007 (UTC) |
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Rowling rejects these characterisations and denies being transphobic,<ref name=RowlingReasons/><ref name= Breznican2023/> in an essay she posted to her website on June 10, 2020,<ref name=RowlingReasons>{{cite web|title=J.K. Rowling writes about her reasons for speaking out on sex and gender issues |url=https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/ |publisher=JK Rowling |date=10 June 2020 |access-date=10 June 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200610182056/https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/ |archive-date=10 June 2020 |url-status=live}}</ref> where she stated that her views on women's rights were informed by her experience as a survivor of domestic abuse and [[sexual assault]].{{sfn|Duggan|2021|loc=PDF pp. 14–15 (160–161)}}<ref name=Shirbon2020>{{cite news |last1=Shirbon |first1=Estelle |title=J.K. Rowling reveals past abuse and defends right to speak on trans issues |url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-rowling/j-k-rowling-reveals-past-abuse-and-defends-right-to-speak-on-trans-issues-idUSKBN23H2XI |publisher=[[Reuters]] |date=10 June 2020 |access-date=13 June 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200611200348/https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-rowling/j-k-rowling-reveals-past-abuse-and-defends-right-to-speak-on-trans-issues-idUSKBN23H2XI |archive-date=11 June 2020 |url-status=live}}</ref> While affirming that "the majority of trans-identified people not only pose zero threat to others, but are vulnerable ... Trans people need and deserve protection",<ref name= Shirbon2020/><ref>{{cite news |last1=Gonzalez |first1=Sandra |title=J.K. Rowling explains her gender identity views in essay amid backlash |url=https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/10/entertainment/jk-rowling/index.html |access-date=16 September 2023 |work=[[CNN]] |date=10 June 2020}}</ref><ref>{{cite news |last1=Garrand |first1=Danielle |title=J.K. Rowling defends herself after accusations of making "anti-trans" comments on Twitter |url=https://www.cbsnews.com/news/j-k-rowling-defends-anti-trans-comments-twitter/ |access-date=16 September 2023 |work=[[CBS News]] |date=11 June 2020}}</ref> she believes that public spaces, such as restrooms, should only be "same-gender space".{{sfn|Whited|2024|pp=6–7}} <!-- Of her own experiences with [[sexism]] and [[misogyny]],{{sfn|Duggan|2021|loc=PDF pp. 14–15 (160–161)}}<ref>{{cite news |first= Sian |last= Cain |date= 11 June 2020 |title= JK Rowling reveals she is survivor of domestic abuse and sexual assault |url= https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/jun/10/jk-rowling-says-survivor-of-domestic-abuse-sexual-assault |work= [[The Guardian]] |access-date= 29 March 2022}}</ref> she asks if the "allure of escaping womanhood" would have led her to [[Gender transitioning|transition]] had she been born later, and said that trans activism was "seeking to erode 'woman' as a political and biological class".<ref name=DAlessandro2020>{{cite news |last=D'Alessandro |first=Anthony |title=J.K. Rowling defends trans statements in lengthy essay, reveals she's a sexual assault survivor & says 'trans people need and deserve protection' |url=https://deadline.com/2020/06/j-k-rowling-defends-trans-statements-essay-1202955524/ |access-date=5 January 2022 |publisher=[[Deadline Hollywood]] |date=10 June 2020}}</ref> --> Whited calls this a "public manifesto", which was the "final straw" for fans.{{sfn|Whited|2024|pp=6–7}} Beginning in 2020, literary scholars, including [[Tison Pugh]] and Whited suggest that French literary critic [[Roland Barthes]] concept of "[[The Death of the Author]]" (to separate the author from the text) applies to Rowling;{{sfn|Pugh|2020|p=8}}{{sfn|Whited|2024|pp=9–10}} Henderson believes this does not apply because Rowling "will not shut up" and that "trans-exclusionary themes [are] baked right into the text".{{sfn|Henderson|2022|p=224}} |
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:Any and all of those points could be correct, but you would have to argue it on a case-by-case basis. About when a critical analysis of a book series becomes definitive, well, never. That's the point. Consensus in the wikipedia sense doesn't really emerge for things like this, critical analyses will always jostle around. That being said, to think that the most read works of fiction in the past ten years - and complex works, at that - do not have a sufficient number of secondary sources that a sense of literary consensus-es can emerge? Rowling herself has discussed her work and influences more than any other author in the information age. And yet there is insufficient reporting and synthesis by others? |
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:In any case, this is beside the point, You argue for a novel approach to wikipedia policy. If you were to find secondary, reliable sources that concluded that satanism was a major influence on her work, I would be surprised, but you'd have to include it anyway. That's the way it works. Choosing to exclude all discussion because the jury's still out would mean we would have no reporting of analysis in here. See Chou En-Lai on the French Revolution. [[User:Hornplease|Hornplease]] 14:12, 13 July 2007 (UTC) |
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::Here. Rowling is a Satanist. Care to include it? [http://cuttingedge.org/news/n1486.cfm][http://www.daveandangel.com/CRN/Harry_Potter_and_The_Sorcerers_Stone_part2.html][http://www.contactmusic.com/new/xmlfeed.nsf/mndwebpages/jk%20rowling%20lures%20kids%20to%20satan_01_03_2006][http://www.greaterthings.com/Lexicon/H/HarryPotter/][http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Wicca%20&%20Witchcraft/former_witch_exposes_harry_potter.htm][http://www.cephasministry.com/save_our_children_harry_potter_booklet.html][http://www.espministries.com/topic_harry.htm][[User:Serendipodous|Serendipodous]] 14:27, 13 July 2007 (UTC) |
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:::Exactly my point. None of those satisfy [[WP:BLP]] as sources, or, indeed, [[WP:RS]]. As I said, to rule out all analysis for fear of including the kooks is just not how things are done. We have policies designed to do that for us. [[User:Hornplease|Hornplease]] 14:32, 13 July 2007 (UTC) |
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::::But who decides who the kooks are and who the kooks aren't? Is it because they reflect some broad mainstream consensus, or is it just because you happen to agree with them? [[User:Serendipodous|Serendipodous]] 14:33, 13 July 2007 (UTC) |
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:::::Oh no, not again... ;-) Exactly, you're very quick to assign the label 'kook' to the Christian Right-wing analysis but they represent the, albeit misguided, viewpoint of literally millions of Americans and while that might not constitute a consensus viewpoint it certainly isn't a minority viewpoint. The point is that nobody wishes to rule out the analysis if your talking in terms of applying the content to her books - those are facts and are not in dispute. But you cannot generalise those analyses to state that they must, by extension, also apply to the author unless you can find a primary source where she explicitly states that she holds a particular view - anything else is mere guesswork and interpretation. <b>[[User:AulaTPN|<font color="#89f">A</font><font color="#78e">u</font><font color="#67d">l</font><font color="#56c">a</font>]][[User talk:AulaTPN|<sup><font color="#45b">T</font><font color="#34a">P</font><font color="#239">N</font></sup>]]</b> 14:38, 13 July 2007 (UTC) |
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::::::The kooks are the ones who aren't writing in [[WP:RS|reliable sources]]. The viewpoint of millions of people is all very well, but until its stated as front-and-centre analysis of Rowling's thinking in Newsweek or a book published by Routledge, we do not need to concern ourselves with it. |
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::::::Any analysis of her books belongs in the book article. Any analysis as it pertains to her own influences and motivations belongs in here. Naturally, the purpose of this talkpage will be to determine what it appears the various mainstream evaluations of those influences and motivations are. Really, this is no different from any other page. There will be disagreements and accusations of OR and synthesis, and it will be cleared up in time. Look at [[Joss Whedon]], for example. [[User:Hornplease|Hornplease]] 14:45, 13 July 2007 (UTC) |
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[[Joss Whedon]] doesn't seem all that resolved, what with the OR tag over the themes section. I don't think there's a way you can resolve something like this, and that's why I don't like including it in the first place. [[User:Serendipodous|Serendipodous]] 19:54, 13 July 2007 (UTC) |
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:I chose Whedon deliberately as an unresolved case to demonstrate that such sections exist, and WP policies exist as well to keep OR there under control. One cant decide not to include these things because it might get messy in the absence of a guideline telling everyone its impermissible. [[User:Hornplease|Hornplease]] 20:48, 13 July 2007 (UTC) |
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::Sorry I have to disagree. The policies are quite clear and the purpose of those policies is not to manage OR or keep it under control but to make sure it doesn't enter the article in the first place and, in cases when it does, to give editors the tools they need to resolve/remove as quickly as possible. <b>[[User:AulaTPN|<font color="#89f">A</font><font color="#78e">u</font><font color="#67d">l</font><font color="#56c">a</font>]][[User talk:AulaTPN|<sup><font color="#45b">T</font><font color="#34a">P</font><font color="#239">N</font></sup>]]</b> 21:19, 13 July 2007 (UTC) |
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:::That is absolutely true. However the fact that OR is not permitted does not mean that ''all sourced analysis is necessarily OR''. [[User:Hornplease|Hornplease]] 21:33, 13 July 2007 (UTC) |
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::::Yes of course. The issue is over the quality and selection of sources. The popular opinion amongst editors around here is that [[WP:BLP]] requires sources of a much higher quality. Further, when similar topics to this have come up in the past the general consensus was that when it came to attributing any viewpoint/belief to Rowling herself, rather than her works, then the sources had to be primary i.e. Rowling herself. <b>[[User:AulaTPN|<font color="#89f">A</font><font color="#78e">u</font><font color="#67d">l</font><font color="#56c">a</font>]][[User talk:AulaTPN|<sup><font color="#45b">T</font><font color="#34a">P</font><font color="#239">N</font></sup>]]</b> 21:40, 13 July 2007 (UTC) |
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:::::While I sympathise with that criterion as putting material beyond criticism, can you point to the part of [[WP:BLP]] that indicates it is necessary? [[User:Hornplease|Hornplease]] 21:53, 13 July 2007 (UTC) |
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::::::What, the bit about better quality sources or the bit about primary sources only? <b>[[User:AulaTPN|<font color="#89f">A</font><font color="#78e">u</font><font color="#67d">l</font><font color="#56c">a</font>]][[User talk:AulaTPN|<sup><font color="#45b">T</font><font color="#34a">P</font><font color="#239">N</font></sup>]]</b> 22:04, 13 July 2007 (UTC) |
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:::::::PS only. Better quality sources is, of course, part of the guideline. Primary sources are ''required'' only for religion and sexuality, I think. [[User:Hornplease|Hornplease]] 22:10, 13 July 2007 (UTC) |
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::::::::Well it isn't per se. That was a decision arrived at, after a lengthy discussion, as a preventative measure to protect the more high-profile articles from the massive amounts of flaming, edit/reversion-warring and NPOV-balancing that was happening. I think one of the problems is that while there's a good deal of analysis of her works by reputable sources the same cannot necessarily be said about analysis of her own personal views and beliefs. <b>[[User:AulaTPN|<font color="#89f">A</font><font color="#78e">u</font><font color="#67d">l</font><font color="#56c">a</font>]][[User talk:AulaTPN|<sup><font color="#45b">T</font><font color="#34a">P</font><font color="#239">N</font></sup>]]</b> 22:31, 13 July 2007 (UTC) |
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:::::::::OK, so it is established that a bar has been set here that is in fact higher than that of comparable articles. I'd just like to say that this is not tenable in the long run; you had better be prepared to defend each individual attempt to add analysis, of which some will definitely be forthcoming, as JKR is not shy about advertising her personal beliefs and influences. And I certainly think that according to the strict letter of policy, you and the other editors who have come to this consensus will be at a disadvantage. That being said, consensus on a page is consensus on a page. |
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:::::::::There would ''not'', however be an RfC if there was consensus. Given that, I strongly suspect that what we have here is editors who, with the best of motives, are setting a separate standard and excluding legitimate edits. I would suggest the next step in dispute resolution for anyone who feels excluded from the consensus. [[User:Hornplease|Hornplease]] 22:52, 13 July 2007 (UTC) |
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::::::::::Um... if you're referring to the RfC I think you're referring to then I think that it, and the whole dispute resolution process that started it, is closed (or should have been). So unless I'm unaware of a new dispute/RfC then I don't know of anyone who currently feels disenfranchised in that way. That being said I think we're all aware of the caveats you pointed out in your first paragraph above and just accept them as part of the cruft involved in keeping this article somewhat compliant. <b>[[User:AulaTPN|<font color="#89f">A</font><font color="#78e">u</font><font color="#67d">l</font><font color="#56c">a</font>]][[User talk:AulaTPN|<sup><font color="#45b">T</font><font color="#34a">P</font><font color="#239">N</font></sup>]]</b> 23:36, 13 July 2007 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::Really? I seem to see the person who lodged the RfC trying to insert material about her politics just a week ago. That is not a closed dispute by any means. There will be more, not less of this.[[User:Hornplease|Hornplease]] 17:10, 14 July 2007 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::: Threats, are most unwelcome. [[User:Jossi|≈ jossi ≈]] <small>[[User_talk:Jossi|(talk)]]</small> 17:12, 14 July 2007 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::::And uninformed interjection even less so.[[User:Hornplease|Hornplease]] 17:51, 14 July 2007 (UTC) |
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For the umpteenth trillionth time, apart from describing herself as "left wing", Rowling has ''never'' made any overt statements about her politics. Any attempt to make any political inferences from her words or her books is therefore OR and is not permissable. [[User:Serendipodous|Serendipodous]] 07:11, 17 July 2007 (UTC) |
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{{cot|Sources}} |
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:Just to chime in after reading Book 7, I think the major difference is that Rowling herself says her heroine is Jessica Mitford who was a Marxist. There are secondary sources that accuse Rowling of all kinds of things, but since she says she is polically on the Left, supports Labour's Prime Minister Gordon Brown, supports charities that lean leftward, then maybe it should be acceptable to add the secondary sources that align with her public statements. '''Adding a secondary source that claims she is a Satanist would be wrong because she denies it.''' Adding a primary source where she says she is polically left should be reasonable. Complimenting that with a secondary source that notes the Leftist angle of her work shouldn't be unacceptable as long as the quote is from a proper source, and it is in line with Rowling's own (limited) quotes. |
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{{reflist-talk}} |
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{{notelist-talk}} |
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{{cob}} |
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====Discussion of third draft==== |
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:Book 7 makes it pretty clear that Rowling doesn't believe in following leaders just for the sake of following them. She's always had a bit of an anti-establishment bent to her writing, and she prizes individual courage above all else. Remember the first time Neville stood up to his friends in CoS, and won Griffindor the House cup? Even the Malfoys regret their blind loyalty by the end of the series. I still say her quote about anarchy while teaching in Scotland is also relevent, as the whole school is in revolt by the end of the series. |
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I've actioned many of the comments made on this page and encorporated into the next draft. There are still issues to be worked out & the text is growing, but this keeps it moving. [[User:Victoriaearle|Victoria]] ([[User talk:Victoriaearle|tk]]) 23:09, 22 April 2024 (UTC) P.s if anyone is interested, my work can be seen [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Victoriaearle/Rowling&action=history here]. [[User:Victoriaearle|Victoria]] ([[User talk:Victoriaearle|tk]]) 23:12, 22 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:I think this draft is a lot better than past drafts as far as [[WP:NPOV]] and covering recent sources goes, but a lot of the wording is awkward. I'd rather split up some of the longer sentences here. [[User:LokiTheLiar|Loki]] ([[User talk:LokiTheLiar|talk]]) 03:16, 23 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:Also, I would hasten to remind that there was majority of maybe 8 of the millions of people who have read Harry Potter that created the so-called consensus to delete the contended articles. If you want true consensus, post the questionable material in a section that requests comment and allow it to be discussed for a month or so. Not everyone is a WP junkie like us. [[User:Libertycookies|Libertycookies]] 16:14, 26 July 2007 (UTC) |
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:#The Hate Crimes para doesn't belong in the current; it is not a consensual change, and we should be comparing to where we started before all those changes.[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=J._K._Rowling&oldid=1202117364#Transgender_people]. |
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:# I'm thrilled that you pushed forward, but the word count is simply too high in relation to the overall size and weight of sources on her entire life and work. I agree with Loki on splitting some sentences, but first trimming will be needed. |
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:# The context (changes of laws) has been eliminated, and stating Duggan's opinion as fact, before explaining the context and evolution of statements, could be leading the reader. We repeat gender-critical later, so that leading sentence isn't needed. Get the context first (changes in laws), then in to opinions of the scholars whose focus is on gender issues. |
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:# I'm not sure we should use our precious word count on a laundry list of he said-she said, which was previously rejected; dropping that entire sentence will help contain the bloat. |
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:# Pending still is to work out the sentence that she did NOT say; how about if we delete that sentence entirely, and the "lived reality" tweet in favor of the more recent tweet suggested by Wikifouf at [[#Misgendering]]? We might use the Hate Crimes para in some form to incorporate that tweet, which I agree with Wikifouf is a better way of summing up her most recent stance. |
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:# How about if we trim some of her older statements like the "lure of womanhood" bit ? |
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: Overall, tightening is needed to this version, as well as getting back the context and keeping under 475 words. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 08:55, 23 April 2024 (UTC) |
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::Re: point 3: when "gender-critical" is repeated in the first paragraph it is in the context of Forstater's views, not Rowling's. |
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::The draft writer was aiming for a simple declarative sentence to open the section. If we're considering the Duggan source not enough context for this declaration, shouldn't we be aiming to back it up more instead of returning to vagueness? I would like to stress that "gender-critical" in the context of the Duggan article is already nuancing the language used there, and it is a term Rowling has used to describe her own views. [[User:Umdlye|Umdlye]] ([[User talk:Umdlye|talk]]) 13:04, 23 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Thanks, yes, agree with your comments. [[User:Victoriaearle|Victoria]] ([[User talk:Victoriaearle|tk]]) 14:48, 23 April 2024 (UTC) |
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Just wanted to comment that the reference in this draft to Forstater misgendering a colleague is incorrect. I am unable to see the source quoted, so unsure where this comes from, but a reading of the court documents [https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5e15e7f8e5274a06b555b8b0/Maya_Forstater__vs_CGD_Europe__Centre_for_Global_Development_and_Masood_Ahmed_-_Judgment.pdf] [https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/60c1cce1d3bf7f4bd9814e39/Maya_Forstater_v_CGD_Europe_and_others_UKEAT0105_20_JOJ.pdf] would show this was not the case as confirmed in this interview with her solicitor [https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/lawyer-in-the-news/lawyer-in-the-news-peter-daly-doyle-clayton/5108912.article]. [[User:Daff22|Daff22]] ([[User talk:Daff22|talk]]) 09:50, 23 April 2024 (UTC) |
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::Thanks, I wondered about that. It's gone now. [[User:Victoriaearle|Victoria]] ([[User talk:Victoriaearle|tk]]) 14:48, 23 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:I'll admit I like the first sentence less in version three than in version two but it is, in general, very good. [[User:Simonm223|Simonm223]] ([[User talk:Simonm223|talk]]) 13:17, 23 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:We're now at version 3.1. I've commented out a few things [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User%3AVictoriaearle%2FRowling&diff=1220386280&oldid=1220301026 here] & will clean up later. It's easier for me to action quickly before comments get lost on talk. I went with the first sentence until we get consensus on it (speaking for myself, I like it), but, yeah, maybe the change in laws should be put back in. It's not in Duggan. I also went with misgendering as it was until we get a better source & agree on wording. Sandy which sentence/section are you referring to re "he said, she said"? [[User:Victoriaearle|Victoria]] ([[User talk:Victoriaearle|tk]]) 14:48, 23 April 2024 (UTC) |
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==JK Rowling No Period== |
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::The bit about which actors support her or not ... we went over that several times during the FAR and decided it wasn't a good use of word count. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 16:47, 23 April 2024 (UTC) |
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Jo is a Scot. Scotland is part of the UK. In the UK we don't put fartsy periods all over the place. In the UK Jo's name is 'JK Rowling'. Please have some decency and respect. {{unsigned|83.193.125.44}} |
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:::I mean it certainly presents a pretty clear picture of an age-divide with regard to reactions to her antics; and I think it's also relevant that the three actors who were the central stars of the movie adaptation of her books all distanced themselves from her. [[User:Simonm223|Simonm223]] ([[User talk:Simonm223|talk]]) 17:30, 23 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:Wrong and wrong - good start. You're obviously not a Brit as nobody in the UK calls a full-stop a 'period', to a Brit a period is something completely different and much much scarier. Jo is English if it matters, born in Yate near Bristol. And British people most certainly do use full-stops all over the place - that is if they've actually been taught spelling and grammar. Oh and new talk subjects should be added to the end of the page. <b>[[User:AulaTPN|<font color="#89f">A</font><font color="#78e">u</font><font color="#67d">l</font><font color="#56c">a</font>]][[User talk:AulaTPN|<sup><font color="#45b">T</font><font color="#34a">P</font><font color="#239">N</font></sup>]]</b> 22:55, 6 July 2007 (UTC) |
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:::I think we need to reconsider the decision made during the FAR. In my view it's important to have at least Radcliffe mentioned b/c his comments made to [[The Trevor Project]] are covered in sources, and probably we should have Watson too. We could maybe slit the difference, mention some, shove others into a note. I hadn't considered Simonm223's point, but that's valid too. I'll add to unresolved issues. [[User:Victoriaearle|Victoria]] ([[User talk:Victoriaearle|tk]]) 19:58, 23 April 2024 (UTC) |
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::::My opinion is that the responses of Radcliffe, Watson and Grint are particularly relevant because of their prior position as something of mentees of Rowling's. However including that some of the older Potter actors supported Rowling would allow for some balance and neutrality rather than making it look like all the actors distanced themselves. So basically I'd strongly defend keeping in mention of the younger stars and would support mention of the older actors in the spirit of balance but don't see them as being as critical from a [[WP:DUE]] perspective. [[User:Simonm223|Simonm223]] ([[User talk:Simonm223|talk]]) 20:02, 23 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::I think you're right. When I was thinking about this, it seemed to me that having Harry, Hermione ''and'' Bellatrix agreeing is something. So if anything, I'd want to see [[Helena Bonham Carter]], but the list as is seems ok. Let's see what others say. [[User:Victoriaearle|Victoria]] ([[User talk:Victoriaearle|tk]]) 20:13, 23 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::@[[User:Simonm223|Simonm223]] @[[User:Victoriaearle|Victoriaearle]] I would maybe suggest using the framing used by Sutherland Borah in ''Ivory Tower'', who writes: "The films’ millennial-age stars—Daniel Radcliffe, Emma Watson, Rupert Grint, Bonnie Wright, Katie Leung, and Eddie Redmayne—expressed their support for the trans community." Mentions the three most relevant actors of HP (+ main actor of FB) without implying a consensus from the cast against Rowling's rhetoric, because it singles out the millennials. [[User:WikiFouf|WikiFouf]] ([[User talk:WikiFouf|talk]]) 21:40, 23 April 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::Perfect! Thanks so much. Do you have a page number off hand? If not I'll access it a bit later. [[User:Victoriaearle|Victoria]] ([[User talk:Victoriaearle|tk]]) 21:45, 23 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::Perfect, thanks! [[User:Simonm223|Simonm223]] ([[User talk:Simonm223|talk]]) 22:12, 23 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::p. 375 [[User:WikiFouf|WikiFouf]] ([[User talk:WikiFouf|talk]]) 22:31, 23 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::: I don't mean to rain on the parade, but I'm not at all satisfied with Draft 3, but don't have time to weigh in for a few more days. If I had time, I'd put up a Draft 4, but can't get to it just yet ... please remember that we need to come up with something that a broader audience will approve when we get to a point of putting it forward via something final, and I don't think we're headed that way just yet. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 01:00, 24 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::::That's fine. I just put up the final one I'll work on. I wanted to do something with the reading I'd done, so jumped in while I could. We do need to work in the UK gender recognition laws (which needs linking), the misgendering needs to be sorted, and I'm not crazy about the stucture, but I'm a big believer in working the content until it's right. If it's going in the wrong direction, then we've discovered what we don't what. So it's all good. [[User:Victoriaearle|Victoria]] ([[User talk:Victoriaearle|tk]]) 02:20, 24 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:We're now at version 3.2, which has only small changes in response to today's comments. I've tweaked the first sentence a bit. [[User:Victoriaearle|Victoria]] ([[User talk:Victoriaearle|tk]]) 02:20, 24 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:She pretty much is an adopted Scot, and her books were aided quite a bit by Scotland (arts grant and welfare). Now she pays the bulk of her taxes there, and is thrilled to have a Scottish PM. Perhaps a bit more on her relationship with Scotland? http://www.rampantscotland.com/famous/bldev_famrowling.htm [[User:Libertycookies|Libertycookies]] 12:11, 8 July 2007 (UTC) |
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::I very strongly prefer "Rowling is a gender-critical feminist" to "Rowling has controversial views on sex and gender". The second version does not give any relevant information about what her views actually are, and also violates [[MOS:CONTROVERSIAL]]. [[User:LokiTheLiar|Loki]] ([[User talk:LokiTheLiar|talk]]) 03:22, 24 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:::I agree, starting with ''something'' about ''what'' her actions ''are'' (or at the very least, ''why'' they're controversial) is more encyclopedic than ''just'' saying "her views are controversial". [[User:-sche|-sche]] ([[User talk:-sche|talk]]) 20:12, 24 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Disagree, "gender-critical feminist" is one of various labels that have been used to characterize her views and singling it out wouldn't be NPOV. I think we should write something along the lines of "Her views have been associated with transphobia and gender-critical feminism" [[User:WikiFouf|WikiFouf]] ([[User talk:WikiFouf|talk]]) 22:30, 24 April 2024 (UTC) |
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::::I'm treading carefully here because my personal opinion of what to call Rowling would probably violate BLP standards; which is why I've mostly left this distinction alone. But I think we may be over-thinking this a bit. I guess where I'd start would be an examination of how Wikipedia frames the TERF occupation of the term. And the answer is that Wikipedia frames the TERF occupation of the term quite well. As such I'd weakly support "gender-critical feminist," notwithstanding my personal misgivings regarding the incompatibility of gender-essentialism with feminism, provided the designation has a wikilink on it to the associated Wikipedia article. [[User:Simonm223|Simonm223]] ([[User talk:Simonm223|talk]]) 12:50, 25 April 2024 (UTC) |
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::The various responses ("sparked controversy, shocked her fans ..."): were they to her comments generally or her support of Forstater in 2019 specifically? [[User:Firefangledfeathers|Firefangledfeathers]] ([[User talk:Firefangledfeathers|talk]] / [[Special:Contributions/Firefangledfeathers|contribs]]) 20:20, 24 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Good question. First of all, I put that in as placeholder and changed from [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AJ._K._Rowling&diff=1220486242&oldid=1220477482 from this version] because in my view we have to be careful re what goes in Wiki voice & at this point it's best for someone else to come up with the next draft. As to your question: recent scholarly sources say her support of Forstater shocked/alienated and to muddy waters even more, framed in terms of fans vs broader population. [[User:Victoriaearle|Victoria]] ([[User talk:Victoriaearle|tk]]) 20:35, 24 April 2024 (UTC) |
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* The third draft concentrates on how Rowling's views have been received in the Harry Potter community and by diversity activists. But it says nothing at all about how this is playing in the wider world of mainstream UK politics. This is proving quite significant as the latest development is that the [[Humza Yousaf|SNP leader]] now faces a vote of no confidence in which [[Ash Regan]] holds the balance of power. And Regan is very much an ally of Rowling. See ''[https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/04/25/jk-rowling-have-last-laugh-snp-obsession-with-trans-rights/ JK Rowling may have the last laugh...]'' |
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::True but the money for those grants ultimately comes from the UK Treasury and no matter where you pay your taxes in the UK they all still go to the same place. Unlike the US we have no concept of a local income tax. There's council tax but that's a whole other can of worms... <b>[[User:AulaTPN|<font color="#89f">A</font><font color="#78e">u</font><font color="#67d">l</font><font color="#56c">a</font>]][[User talk:AulaTPN|<sup><font color="#45b">T</font><font color="#34a">P</font><font color="#239">N</font></sup>]]</b> 18:14, 8 July 2007 (UTC) |
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: This follows prominent statements of support for Rowling by both Conservative and Labour representatives – [https://variety.com/2024/politics/global/jk-rowling-uk-prime-minister-scotland-hate-crime-act-arrest-me-1235957584/ U.K. Prime Minister Backs J.K. Rowling...], [https://www.thepinknews.com/2024/04/25/shadow-justice-secretary-shabana-mahmood-jk-rowling/ Labour’s shadow justice secretary ‘agrees’ with JK Rowling’s ‘gender-critical’ views]. It appears that Rowling is getting support across the political spectrum and so is quite influential. |
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: [[user:Andrew Davidson|Andrew]]🐉([[user talk:Andrew Davidson|talk]]) 06:55, 26 April 2024 (UTC) |
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::Not sure we can assume that's because "Rowling is influential" rather than just because both transgender rights supporters and gender criticals span the political spectrum, despite what the culture warriors would have us believe. – [[user:filelakeshoe|filelakeshoe]] ([[user talk:filelakeshoe|t]] / [[special:contributions/filelakeshoe|c]]) [[user:filelakeshoe/kocour|🐱]] 08:47, 26 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:{{tq|Potter scholar Tolanda Henderson writes the June 2020 post revealed Rowling's "stance that invalidates nonbinary people like me"}} garden-pathed me the first few times I read it, how about {{tq|Potter scholar Tolanda Henderson wrote that Rowling's June 2020 post revealed a "stance that invalidates nonbinary people like me"}}. Also I don't think there's any need for the information about Forstater to be cleft in two by the "would rather go to jail" thing. – [[user:filelakeshoe|filelakeshoe]] ([[user talk:filelakeshoe|t]] / [[special:contributions/filelakeshoe|c]]) [[user:filelakeshoe/kocour|🐱]] 09:04, 26 April 2024 (UTC) |
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::Discussion seems to have petered out now. Can we confirm that 3.2 is how we want to go? I still don't love it using wiki voice to call Rowling any kind of feminist but, as I was saying before, I'll accept it as long as it wiki-links to [[Gender critical feminist]] [[User:Simonm223|Simonm223]] ([[User talk:Simonm223|talk]]) 01:18, 1 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::We could probably do some more work on it. I don't think that it's perfect yet, though it's definitely a large improvement. [[User:LokiTheLiar|Loki]] ([[User talk:LokiTheLiar|talk]]) 01:50, 1 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::It needs more work in my view. I'm tied with some spring projects & can't get back here immediately but I've been letting it percolate. I'm thinking it's gone too far in the direction of what others think of Rowling rather than focusing on what Rowling believes. Ideally, since this is her bio & a BLP, the latter should come first. When my time frees up, I can take another crack at it, but in the meantime more than happy if someone else gives it a try. [[User:Victoriaearle|Victoria]] ([[User talk:Victoriaearle|tk]]) 02:28, 1 May 2024 (UTC) |
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{{Use dmy dates|date=May 2024}} |
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== Studied writing or literature in the USA? == |
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===Fourth draft=== |
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Sincere apologies for the delay in posting this. I've re-ordered the ideas as well as cutting and rewriting.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 11:28, 1 May 2024 (UTC) |
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{| class="wikitable" |
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I'd heard somewhere that she had done a master's degree in writing in the USA - if true implying that she wasnt as [[skint]] as her [[image]] makes out. [[User:80.0.104.93|80.0.104.93]] 23:48, 6 July 2007 (UTC) |
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! Historic (454 words) !! Proposed (401 words) |
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{{Main|Political views of J. K. Rowling#Transgender rights}} |
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Rowling's responses to proposed changes to UK gender recognition laws,<ref name= Milne2020>{{cite web|first1= Amber |last1=Milne|first2 = Rachel| last2 =Savage | url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-lgbt-rowling-explainer-trfn-idUSKBN23I3AI | title=Explainer: J. K. Rowling and trans women in single-sex spaces: what's the furore? | publisher=[[Reuters]] | date=11 June 2020 | access-date=6 April 2021 }}</ref><ref name= Brooks2020>{{Cite news|last=Brooks|first=Libby|date=11 June 2020|title=Why is JK Rowling speaking out now on sex and gender debate? |url= http://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/jun/11/why-is-jk-rowling-speaking-out-now-on-sex-and-gender-debate|access-date=14 January 2022 |work= [[The Guardian]] }}</ref>{{efn|The UK laws and proposed changes are the [[Gender Recognition Act 2004]], the [[Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill]] and the related [[Equality Act 2010]].{{sfn|Pedersen|2022|loc=Abstract}}{{sfn|Suissa|Sullivan|2021|pp=66–69}}{{sfn|Duggan|2021|loc=PDF pp. 14–15 (160–161)}} }} and her views on [[sexual identity|sex]] and [[gender identity|gender]], have provoked controversy.{{sfn|Duggan|2021|loc=PDF pp. 14–15 (160–161)}} Her statements have divided [[Feminist views on transgender topics|feminists]];<ref name=Kottasova2019>{{cite news |first1= Ivana |last1= Kottasová |first2= Scottie | last2= Andrew|title= J.K. Rowling's 'transphobia' tweet row spotlights a fight between equality campaigners and radical feminists |publisher= [[CNN]] |date= 20 December 2019 |access-date= 29 March 2022 | url= https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/20/uk/jk-rowling-transgender-explainer-intl-gbr/index.html}}</ref><ref name=BBC2020JKRResponds>{{cite news |url= https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-53002557 |publisher= [[BBC News]] |title= JK Rowling responds to trans tweets criticism |date= 11 June 2020 |access-date= 29 March 2022}}</ref><ref>{{cite news | url=https://www.newstatesman.com/international/2020/09/judith-butler-culture-wars-jk-rowling-and-living-anti-intellectual-times | title=Judith Butler on the culture wars, JK Rowling and living in 'anti-intellectual times'|first=Alona |last=Ferber | work=[[New Statesman]] | date=22 September 2020 | access-date=26 March 2021}}</ref> fuelled<!-- This article uses British spelling --> debates on [[freedom of speech]]{{sfn|Pape|2022|pp=229–230}}<ref>{{cite web|title=BBC nominates J.K.Rowling's controversial essay of trans rights for award|url=https://www.dw.com/en/bbc-nominates-jk-rowlings-controversial-essay-on-trans-rights-for-award/a-56014673|website=[[DW News]]|date=22 December 2020|access-date=22 December 2020}}</ref> and [[cancel culture]];{{sfn|Schwirblat|Freberg|Freberg|2022|pp=367–369}} and prompted declarations of [[Transgender rights movement|support for transgender people]] from the literary,<ref>UK, US, Canada, Ireland: {{cite news |last= Flood |first= Alison |date=9 October 2020|title= Stephen King, Margaret Atwood and Roxane Gay champion trans rights in open letter|url= https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/oct/09/stephen-king-margaret-atwood-roxane-gay-champion-trans-rights-open-letter-jk-rowling |work= [[The Guardian]] |access-date= 2 April 2022}}</ref> arts<ref>{{cite magazine|last= Rowley |first= Glenn |title= Artists fire back at J.K. Rowling's anti-trans remarks, share messages in support of the community|url= https://www.billboard.com/culture/pride/artists-fire-back-jk-rowling-anti-trans-remarks-9400386/|magazine= [[Billboard (magazine)|Billboard]]|date= 11 June 2020 |access-date= 7 April 2022}}</ref> and culture sectors.<ref>Culture sector: |
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* [[Universal Destinations & Experiences]], [[Warner Bros.]] and [[Scholastic Corporation]]: {{cite news |last1= Siegel |first1= Tatiana |last2= Abramovitch |first2= Seth |date= 10 June 2020 |title= Universal Parks responds to J.K. Rowling tweets: 'Our core values include diversity, inclusion and respect' |work= [[The Hollywood Reporter]] |url= https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/lifestyle/lifestyle-news/universal-parks-responds-jk-rowling-tweets-core-values-include-diversity-inclusion-respect-1297845/ |access-date= 3 April 2022|ref=none}} |
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* [[Warner Bros. Interactive Entertainment]] president: {{cite news |last= Skrebels |first= Joe |title= WB Interactive president responds to ongoing debate over supporting JK Rowling |date=1 October 2020 |url= https://www.ign.com/articles/wb-interactive-president-responds-to-ongoing-debate-over-supporting-jk-rowling |publisher= [[IGN]] |access-date= 2 April 2022|ref=none}}</ref> |
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When [[Maya Forstater]]'s employment contract with the London branch of the [[Center for Global Development]] was not renewed after she tweeted [[Feminist views on transgender topics#Gender-critical feminism and trans-exclusionary radical feminism|gender-critical views]],{{sfn|Pugh|2020|p=7}}<ref name=Stack2019>{{Cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/19/world/europe/jk-rowling-maya-forstater-transgender.html|title=J.K. Rowling criticized after tweeting support for anti-transgender researcher|last=Stack|first=Liam|date=19 December 2019|work=[[The New York Times]]|access-date=13 June 2020| url-access=registration|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200613012737/https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/19/world/europe/jk-rowling-maya-forstater-transgender.html|archive-date=13 June 2020|url-status=live}}</ref> Rowling responded in December 2019 with a tweet that [[transgender]] people should live their lives as they pleased in "peace and security", but questioned women being "force[d] out of their jobs for stating that sex is real".<ref name=Stack2019/>{{efn|A tribunal ruled in 2021 that Forstater's gender-critical views were protected under the 2010 UK [[Equality Act 2010|Equality Act]].<ref name=Faulkner2021>{{cite news |first= Doug |last= Faulkner |url= https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-57426579 |title= Maya Forstater: woman wins tribunal appeal over transgender tweets |publisher= [[BBC News]] |date= 10 June 2021 |access-date= 26 March 2022}}</ref><ref name=Siddique2021>{{cite news |first= Haroon |last= Siddique |date= 10 June 2021 |title= Gender-critical views are a protected belief, appeal tribunal rules|url= https://www.theguardian.com/law/2021/jun/10/gender-critical-views-protected-belief-appeal-tribunal-rules-maya-forstater |work= [[The Guardian]] |access-date= 26 March 2022}}</ref> In July 2022, a new tribunal decision was published (''[[Forstater v Center for Global Development Europe]]'') ruling that Forstater had suffered direct discrimination from her employer.<ref>{{cite web |title=Maya Forstater: Woman discriminated against over trans tweets, tribunal rules|date=6 July 2022 |url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-62061929 |publisher=BBC |access-date=6 July 2022}}</ref>}} In another controversial tweet in June 2020,<ref name=Petter2020>{{Cite web|last= Petter|first=Olivia|date=17 September 2020|title=Mermaids writes open letter to JK Rowling following her recent comments on trans people|url=https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/mermaids-jk-rowling-transphobia-transgender-sexual-abuse-domestic-letter-a9565176.html|access-date=26 March 2022|work=[[The Independent]] |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200615235531/https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/mermaids-jk-rowling-transphobia-transgender-sexual-abuse-domestic-letter-a9565176.html |archive-date=15 June 2020}}</ref> Rowling mocked an article for using the phrase "[[people who menstruate]]",<ref name=Gross2020>{{Cite news|last=Gross|first=Jenny|date=7 June 2020|title=Daniel Radcliffe criticizes J.K. Rowling's anti-transgender tweets|work=[[The New York Times]]|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/07/arts/Jk-Rowling-controversy.html |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200607221400/https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/07/arts/Jk-Rowling-controversy.html |archive-date=7 June 2020 |url-access=subscription |url-status=live|access-date=6 January 2022 }}</ref> and tweeted that [[women's rights]] and "lived reality" would be "erased" if "sex isn't real".{{sfn|Duggan|2021|loc=PDF pp. 14–15}}<ref>{{cite magazine|url=https://variety.com/2020/film/news/jk-rowling-transphobic-tweets-controversy-1234627081/|title=J.K. Rowling gets backlash over anti-trans tweets|last=Moreau|first=Jordan|magazine=[[Variety (magazine)|Variety]]|date=6 June 2020|access-date=13 June 2020|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200607005447/https://variety.com/2020/film/news/jk-rowling-transphobic-tweets-controversy-1234627081/|archive-date=7 June 2020|url-status=live}}</ref> |
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::''I had never been to America, for example, before 1998 and the first time I went for a book signing, which as incredible.'' JK Rowling, 2005 [http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/2005/0705-edinburgh-ITVcubreporters.htm] |
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[[LGBT]] charities and leading actors of the [[Wizarding World]] franchise condemned Rowling's comments;<ref name=Waterson2020>{{Cite news|last= Waterson |first= Jim|title= Children's news website apologises to JK Rowling over trans tweet row|url= https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jul/23/childrens-news-website-apologises-jk-rowling-trans-tweet-day|date= 23 July 2020 |access-date=26 March 2022|work=[[The Guardian]] |quote= Rowling's comments on gender were condemned by LGBT charities and the leading stars of her Harry Potter film franchise.}}</ref><ref name=Lang2020>{{cite magazine |last=Lang |first=Brent |title= Eddie Redmayne criticizes J.K. Rowling's anti-trans tweets |date= 10 June 2020 |url= https://variety.com/2020/film/news/eddie-redmayne-jk-rowling-anti-trans-tweets-harry-potter-fantastic-beasts-1234630226/ |magazine= [[Variety (magazine)|Variety]]|access-date=28 March 2022 |quote= Eddie Redmayne, star of the ''Fantastic Beasts'' franchise, is speaking out against J.K. Rowling's anti-trans tweets, as the controversy surrounding the author and her beliefs continues to swirl.}}</ref>{{efn| [[Daniel Radcliffe]], [[Emma Watson]], [[Rupert Grint]],<ref name= Hibberd2021/> [[Eddie Redmayne]]<ref name=Lang2020/> and others expressed support for the transgender community in reaction to Rowling's comments;<ref>{{cite magazine |first= Maureen |last= Lenker|title= Every Harry Potter actor who's spoken out against J.K. Rowling's controversial trans comments |date= 10 June 2020 |access-date= 1 April 2022 |magazine= [[Entertainment Weekly]]|url=https://ew.com/movies/every-harry-potter-actor-whos-spoken-out-against-j-k-rowlings-controversial-transgender-comments/ }}</ref><ref>{{cite news |first= Maggie |last= Baska|title= Stephen Fry defends 'friendship' with JK Rowling: 'I'm sorry that people are upset' |date= 20 May 2021 |url= https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2021/05/20/stephen-fry-jk-rowling-friend-harry-potter-jordan-b-peterson-podcast-trans/ |publisher= [[PinkNews]] |access-date= 29 March 2022}}</ref> [[Helena Bonham Carter]],<ref name=Evans2022> {{cite news |first= Greg |last= Evans |url= https://deadline.com/2022/11/helena-bonham-carter-johnny-depp-j-k-rowling-1235182523/ |title= Helena Bonham Carter says Johnny Depp 'completely vindicated' in defamation trial, and J.K. Rowling 'hounded' for transgender stance |work= [[Deadline Hollywood]] |access-date= 18 December 2022}}</ref> [[Robbie Coltrane]],<ref>{{cite news |last= Yasharoff |first= Hannah |title= How the 'Harry Potter' reunion addresses author J.K. Rowling's anti-trans controversy |date= 30 December 2021|url= https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/movies/2021/12/30/harry-potter-return-hogwarts-20th-reunion-emma-watson-jk-rowling-controversy/9042955002/ |work= [[USA Today]] |access-date= 2 April 2022}}</ref> and [[Ralph Fiennes]] supported Rowling.<ref name= Hibberd2021>{{cite news |first= James |last= Hibberd |url= https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/ralph-fiennes-defends-j-k-rowling-amid-trans-controversy-says-backlash-is-disturbing-4151944/ |title= Ralph Fiennes defends J.K. rowling amid trans controversy, says backlash is 'disturbing' |date= 17 March 2021 |access-date=26 March 2022 |work= [[The Hollywood Reporter]]}}</ref>}} [[GLAAD]] called them "cruel" and "inaccurate".<ref name= Yasharoff2020> {{cite news |last= Yasharoff |first=Hannah|url= https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/celebrities/2020/06/07/j-k-rowling-harry-potter-author-slammed-transphobic-comments/3169833001/ |title= J.K. Rowling reveals she's a sexual assault survivor; Emma Watson reacts to trans comments |work= [[USA Today]] |date= 10 June 2020 |access-date= 27 March 2022}}</ref> Rowling responded with an essay on her website<ref name=RowlingReasons>{{cite web|title=J.K. Rowling writes about her reasons for speaking out on sex and gender issues |url=https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/ |publisher=JK Rowling |date=10 June 2020 |access-date=10 June 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200610182056/https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/ |archive-date=10 June 2020 |url-status=live}}</ref> in which she stated that her views on women's rights were informed by her experience as a survivor of domestic abuse and [[sexual assault]].<ref name=Shirbon2020>{{cite news |last1=Shirbon |first1=Estelle |title=J.K. Rowling reveals past abuse and defends right to speak on trans issues |url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-rowling/j-k-rowling-reveals-past-abuse-and-defends-right-to-speak-on-trans-issues-idUSKBN23H2XI |publisher=[[Reuters]] |date=10 June 2020 |access-date=13 June 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200611200348/https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-rowling/j-k-rowling-reveals-past-abuse-and-defends-right-to-speak-on-trans-issues-idUSKBN23H2XI |archive-date=11 June 2020 |url-status=live}}</ref> While affirming that "the majority of trans-identified people not only pose zero threat to others, but are vulnerable ... Trans people need and deserve protection", she believed that it would be unsafe to allow "any man who believes or feels he's a woman" into bathrooms or changing rooms.<ref name= Shirbon2020/><ref>{{cite news |last1=Gonzalez |first1=Sandra |title=J.K. Rowling explains her gender identity views in essay amid backlash |url=https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/10/entertainment/jk-rowling/index.html |access-date=16 September 2023 |publisher=[[CNN]] |date=10 June 2020}}</ref><ref>{{cite news |last1=Garrand |first1=Danielle |title=J.K. Rowling defends herself after accusations of making "anti-trans" comments on Twitter |url=https://www.cbsnews.com/news/j-k-rowling-defends-anti-trans-comments-twitter/ |access-date=16 September 2023 |publisher=[[CBS News]] |date=11 June 2020}}</ref> Writing of her own experiences with [[sexism]] and [[misogyny]],<ref>{{cite news |first= Sian |last= Cain |date= 11 June 2020 |title= JK Rowling reveals she is survivor of domestic abuse and sexual assault |url= https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/jun/10/jk-rowling-says-survivor-of-domestic-abuse-sexual-assault |work= [[The Guardian]] |access-date= 29 March 2022}}</ref> she wondered if the "allure of escaping womanhood" would have led her to [[Gender transitioning|transition]] if she had been born later, and said that trans activism was "seeking to erode 'woman' as a political and biological class".<ref name=DAlessandro2020>{{cite news |last=D'Alessandro |first=Anthony |title=J.K. Rowling defends trans statements in lengthy essay, reveals she's a sexual assault survivor & says 'trans people need and deserve protection' |url=https://deadline.com/2020/06/j-k-rowling-defends-trans-statements-essay-1202955524/ |access-date=5 January 2022 |work=[[Deadline Hollywood]] |date=10 June 2020}}</ref> |
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:So either you're wrong, or she's lying. And if you're going to accuse her of lying, you'll need some pretty hefty evidence to back your claim up. [[User:Serendipodous|Serendipodous]] 05:40, 7 July 2007 (UTC) |
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Rowling's statements – beginning in 2017{{sfn|Duggan|2021|loc=PDF pp. 14–15 (160–161)}}<ref name= Jacobs2023>{{cite news |last= Jacobs |first= Julia |title= Hogwarts legacy can't cast aside debate over J. K. Rowling |url= https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/09/arts/hogwarts-legacy-jk-rowling.html |date= 9 February 2023 |work = [[The New York Times]] |access-date= 14 July 2023}}</ref><ref name= Spangler2023>{{cite news |last= Spangler|first= Todd |title= J.K. Rowling addresses backlash to her anti-trans comments in new podcast: 'I never set out to upset anyone' |url= https://variety.com/2023/digital/news/jk-rowling-anti-trans-comments-podcast-witch-trials-1235522301/ |date= 14 February 2023|work= [[Variety (magazine)|Variety]]|access-date= 14 July 2023}}</ref> – have been called transphobic,<ref name= Breznican2023>{{cite news |last= Breznican |first= Anthony |title= J.K. Rowling will oversee a new streaming ''Harry Potter'' series |url= https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2023/04/jk-rowling-harry-potter-series|date= 12 April 2023 |work= [[Vanity Fair (magazine)|Vanity Fair]] |access-date= 14 July 2023}}</ref><ref name=Rosenblatt2020>{{Cite web|last = Rosenblatt| first =Kalhan |title=J.K. Rowling doubles down in what some critics call a 'transphobic manifesto' |url= https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/j-k-rowling-doubles-down-what-some-critics-call-transphobic-n1229351|date= 10 June 2020 |access-date=19 January 2022|publisher=[[NBC News]] }}</ref> and she has been referred to as a [[TERF (acronym)|TERF]], a "trans-exclusionary radical feminist".<ref name= Rosenblatt2020/>{{sfn|Steinfeld|2020|pp=34–35}}{{sfn|Schwirblat|Freberg|Freberg|2022|pp=367–368}} She has rejected these characterisations and the notion that she holds animosity towards transgender people, saying that her viewpoint has been misunderstood.<ref name=RowlingReasons/><ref name= Breznican2023/><ref name= Spangler2023/> Criticism of Rowling's views has come from the ''Harry Potter'' fansites [[MuggleNet]] and [[The Leaky Cauldron (website)|The Leaky Cauldron]];<ref name=FanSites>{{cite news|url=https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/03/harry-potter-fan-sites-distance-themselves-from-jk-rowling-over-transgender-rights|title=Harry Potter fan sites distance themselves from JK Rowling over transgender rights|publisher=[[Reuters]]|work=[[The Guardian]]|date=3 July 2020|access-date=3 July 2020|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200703011204/https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/03/harry-potter-fan-sites-distance-themselves-from-jk-rowling-over-transgender-rights|archive-date=3 July 2020|url-status=live}}</ref> and the charities [[Mermaids (charity)|Mermaids]],<ref name=Petter2020/> [[Stonewall (charity)|Stonewall]],<ref>{{cite news | url=https://www.newstatesman.com/long-reads/2021/11/the-battle-for-stonewall-the-lgbt-charity-and-the-uks-gender-wars | title=The battle for Stonewall: the LGBT charity and the UK's gender wars | work=[[New Statesman]]|first=Gaby |last=Hinsliff|date=3 November 2021 | access-date=24 November 2021}}</ref> and [[Human Rights Campaign]].<ref>{{cite news |first= Elise |last= Brisco |title=Dave Chappelle says he's 'Team TERF,' defends J.K. Rowling in new Netflix comedy special|url= https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/tv/2021/10/05/dave-chappelle-terf-defends-j-k-rowling-netflix-special/6002017001/ |work= [[USA Today]] |date= 8 October 2021|access-date= 29 March 2022}}</ref> After [[Kerry Kennedy]] expressed "profound disappointment" in her views, Rowling returned the [[Ripple of Hope Award]] given to her by the Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights organisation.<ref name=RFKAward>{{cite news |last=Flood|first=Alison |url= https://amp.theguardian.com/books/2020/aug/28/jk-rowling-robert-f-kennedy-human-rights-award-trans-views|title=JK Rowling returns human rights award to group that denounces her trans views |work=[[The Guardian]]|date=28 August 2020|access-date=28 August 2020}}</ref> |
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::This is a new one on me. <b>[[User:AulaTPN|<font color="#89f">A</font><font color="#78e">u</font><font color="#67d">l</font><font color="#56c">a</font>]][[User talk:AulaTPN|<sup><font color="#45b">T</font><font color="#34a">P</font><font color="#239">N</font></sup>]]</b> 20:13, 7 July 2007 (UTC) |
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After the [[Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Act 2021]] had come into force in April 2024, Rowling, who resides in Edinburgh, tested the law by posting on [[Twitter|X]] a list of transgender women, and wrote that they were "men, every last one of them".<ref>{{Cite news |url=https://deadline.com/2024/04/jk-rowling-scotland-hate-crime-law-1235872981/|title=J.K. Rowling Mocks Trans Women To Defy Scotland’s New Hate Crime Law: 'I Look Forward To Being Arrested'|work= [[Deadline Hollywood]] |access-date=3 April 2024|archive-date=1 April 2024|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20240401190451/https://deadline.com/2024/04/jk-rowling-scotland-hate-crime-law-1235872981/|url-status=live}}</ref> [[Police Scotland]] stated it had not received any complaints over the posts<ref>{{Cite news |last=Cook |first=James |date=1 April 2024 |title=JK Rowling in ‘arrest me’ challenge over hate crime law |url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c51j64lk2l8o |publisher= [[BBC News]] |access-date= 2 May 2024}}</ref> and that "no action [would] be taken" as they were not illegal.<ref>{{Cite news |last=Bonar |first=Megan |date=2 April 2024 |title=JK Rowling hate law posts not criminal, police say |url=https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-68712471 |access-date=2 April 2024 |publisher=[[BBC News]] |language=en-GB}}</ref><ref>{{Cite news |last=Learmonth |first=Andrew |date=3 April 2024 |title=Police Scotland will not log 'hate incident' against Rowling or FM |url=https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/24229707.police-scotland-will-not-log-hate-incident-jk-rowling/?ref=twtrec |access-date=3 April 2024 |work=[[The Herald (Scotland)|The Herald]] |language=en-GB}}</ref> |
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:::She's visited the U.S., and that is about the extent of it. [[User:Libertycookies|Libertycookies]] 12:25, 8 July 2007 (UTC) |
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{{Main|Political views of J. K. Rowling#Transgender rights}} |
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<!-- Overview --> |
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==Privacy of Rowling== |
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Rowling is a gender-critical feminist.{{sfn|Whited|2024|p=7}}{{sfn|Steinfeld|2020|pp=34–35}}{{sfn|Schwirblat|Freberg|Freberg|2022|pp=367–368}} She has often used Twitter and her blog to share thoughts on trans people, mostly in the context of proposed legal changes in Scotland that would make it easier to transition. She has said that "the majority of trans-identified people not only pose zero threat to others, but are vulnerable ... Trans people need and deserve protection",<ref>{{cite news |last1=Gonzalez |first1=Sandra |title=J.K. Rowling explains her gender identity views in essay amid backlash |url=https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/10/entertainment/jk-rowling/index.html |access-date=16 September 2023 |publisher=[[CNN]] |date=10 June 2020}}</ref><ref>{{cite news |last1=Garrand |first1=Danielle |title=J.K. Rowling defends herself after accusations of making "anti-trans" comments on Twitter |url=https://www.cbsnews.com/news/j-k-rowling-defends-anti-trans-comments-twitter/ |access-date=16 September 2023 |publisher=[[CBS News]] |date=11 June 2020}}</ref> but she opposes gender self-recognition.{{sfn|Whited|2024|p=17}} She feels that some transwomen are a threat to women {{sfn|Duggan|2021|p=161}} and trans-positive messages can be a threat to children.{{sfn|Duggan|2021|p=161}} She has tweeted a list of transwomen, writing that they are "men, every last one of them". Many people, including some of the principal film stars connected with her work, have condemned her remarks,{{sfn|Pape|2022|p=238}} although sales of Harry Potter books grew by 28% after she made them.{{sfn|Pape|2022|p=238}} |
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:With so many assumptions in the media about why Rowling is shy and private, we probably should address the various viewpoints here. Here's a rough draft, needs work, and I've thrown notes in so you can see where I'm trying to go. I can track down the quotes if you guys think it is an appropriate subject. [[User:Libertycookies|Libertycookies]] 13:34, 8 July 2007 (UTC) |
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<!-- History --> |
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Rowling is often portrayed as shunning the media [several quotes available]. The Independent recently wrote: "she remains an enigma - an intensely private person with a craving for security, a horror of intrusion, a distrust of fame ("I never wanted it and I never expected it and certainly never worked for it, and I see it as something I have to get through really")." [http://arts.independent.co.uk/books/features/article2737970.ece] |
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Controversy over Rowling's gender-critical messaging has developed over time. Although it started in 2017,{{sfn|Duggan|2021|pp=160–161)}} it became more fraught in 2019 when she expressed support for [[Maya Forstater]],{{sfn|Whited|2024|pp=6-8}} whose employment contract with the London branch of the [[Center for Global Development]] was not renewed after she expressed gender-critical views.{{sfn|Pugh|2020|p=7}} Rowling wrote that [[transgender]] people should live in "peace and security", but questioned women being "force[d] out of their jobs for stating that sex is real".<ref name=Stack2019/>{{efn|A tribunal ruled in 2021 that Forstater's gender-critical views were protected under the 2010 UK [[Equality Act 2010|Equality Act]].<ref name=Faulkner2021>{{cite news |first= Doug |last= Faulkner |url= https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-57426579 |title= Maya Forstater: woman wins tribunal appeal over transgender tweets |publisher= [[BBC News]] |date= 10 June 2021 |access-date= 26 March 2022}}</ref><ref name=Siddique2021>{{cite news |first= Haroon |last= Siddique |date= 10 June 2021 |title= Gender-critical views are a protected belief, appeal tribunal rules|url= https://www.theguardian.com/law/2021/jun/10/gender-critical-views-protected-belief-appeal-tribunal-rules-maya-forstater |work= [[The Guardian]] |access-date= 26 March 2022}}</ref>}} ''Harry Potter'' scholar Lana Whited writes that in the next six months "Rowling herself fanned the flames as she became increasingly vocal".{{sfn|Whited|2024|p=6}} In June 2020,{{sfn|Whited|2024|p=6}} Rowling mocked the phrase "[[people who menstruate]]",<ref name=Gross2020>{{Cite news|last=Gross|first=Jenny|date=7 June 2020|title=Daniel Radcliffe criticizes J.K. Rowling's anti-transgender tweets|work=[[The New York Times]]|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/07/arts/Jk-Rowling-controversy.html |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200607221400/https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/07/arts/Jk-Rowling-controversy.html |archive-date=7 June 2020 |url-access=subscription |url-status=live|access-date=6 January 2022 }}</ref> and tweeted that [[women's rights]] and "lived reality" would be "erased" if "sex isn't real".{{sfn|Duggan|2021|pp=14–15}}{{sfn|Pugh|2020|p=7}} |
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There is indication that much of the books are personal [Hermoine "somewhat autobiographical" quote|quote that she'd finish the books if only for herself] and she stays quiet to avoid spoiling the plot [website plea to not spoil ending]. In an interview discussing the controversy over the books promoting witchcraft she said, "Every time I've been asked if I believe in God, I've said yes, because I do, but no one ever really has gone any more deeply into it than that, and I have to say that does suit me, because if I talk too freely about that I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess what's coming in the books. {{cite web|url=http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/2000/1000-vancouversun-wyman.htm|title='You can lead a fool to a book but you can't make them think'|publisher=Vancouver Sun|date=2000-10-26|accessdate=2007-05-01}} |
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Rowling's views have impacted her reputation. Fans turned away from her work, boycotted events, and publishers hesitated to accept her work.{{sfn|Whited|2024|p=8}} Criticism of Rowling's views has come from the ''Harry Potter'' fansites [[MuggleNet]] and [[The Leaky Cauldron (website)|The Leaky Cauldron]],{{sfn|Henderson|2022|p=224}} and the charities [[Mermaids (charity)|Mermaids]],<ref name=Petter2020>{{Cite web|last= Petter|first=Olivia|date=17 September 2020|title=Mermaids writes open letter to JK Rowling following her recent comments on trans people|url=https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/mermaids-jk-rowling-transphobia-transgender-sexual-abuse-domestic-letter-a9565176.html|access-date=26 March 2022|work=[[The Independent]] |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200615235531/https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/mermaids-jk-rowling-transphobia-transgender-sexual-abuse-domestic-letter-a9565176.html |archive-date=15 June 2020}}</ref> [[Stonewall (charity)|Stonewall]],<ref>{{cite news | url=https://www.newstatesman.com/long-reads/2021/11/the-battle-for-stonewall-the-lgbt-charity-and-the-uks-gender-wars | title=The battle for Stonewall: the LGBT charity and the UK's gender wars | work=[[New Statesman]]|first=Gaby |last=Hinsliff|date=3 November 2021 | access-date=24 November 2021}}</ref> and [[Human Rights Campaign]].<ref>{{cite news |first= Elise |last= Brisco |title=Dave Chappelle says he's 'Team TERF,' defends J.K. Rowling in new Netflix comedy special|url= https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/tv/2021/10/05/dave-chappelle-terf-defends-j-k-rowling-netflix-special/6002017001/ |work= [[USA Today]] |date= 8 October 2021|access-date= 29 March 2022}}</ref> [[LGBT]] charity the [[Wizarding World]] spoke out against her stance.<ref name=Waterson2020>{{Cite news|last= Waterson |first= Jim|title= Children's news website apologises to JK Rowling over trans tweet row|url= https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jul/23/childrens-news-website-apologises-jk-rowling-trans-tweet-day|date= 23 July 2020 |access-date=26 March 2022|work=[[The Guardian]] |quote= Rowling's comments on gender were condemned by LGBT charities and the leading stars of her Harry Potter film franchise.}}</ref> [[Daniel Radcliffe]], [[Emma Watson]], [[Rupert Grint]], and [[Eddie Redmayne]] and others expressed support for the transgender community.{{sfn|Borah|2024|p=375}} [[GLAAD]] called Rowling's comments "cruel" and "inaccurate".<ref name= Yasharoff2020> {{cite news |last= Yasharoff |first=Hannah|url= https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/celebrities/2020/06/07/j-k-rowling-harry-potter-author-slammed-transphobic-comments/3169833001/ |title= J.K. Rowling reveals she's a sexual assault survivor; Emma Watson reacts to trans comments |work= [[USA Today]] |date= 10 June 2020 |access-date= 27 March 2022}}</ref> After [[Kerry Kennedy]] expressed "profound disappointment" in her views, Rowling returned the [[Ripple of Hope Award]] given to her by the Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights organisation.<ref name=RFKAward>{{cite news |last=Flood|first=Alison |url= https://amp.theguardian.com/books/2020/aug/28/jk-rowling-robert-f-kennedy-human-rights-award-trans-views|title=JK Rowling returns human rights award to group that denounces her trans views |work=[[The Guardian]]|date=28 August 2020|access-date=28 August 2020}}</ref> |
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After ''Deathly Hallows'' was released, Meredith Vieira from the Today show said she read that Rowling was not an easy interview and “aloof,” but found her very much the opposite: warm and charming. She said Rowling was "protective of her material but not proprietary", Vieira explained, "In so many other interviews she had to be guarded. There was still this whole series and she didn’t want to reveal secrets before now." [http://allday.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/07/26/288781.aspx] |
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Rowling rejects these characterisations and denies being transphobic.<ref name=RowlingReasons/><ref name= Breznican2023/> In an essay she posted to her website on 10 June 2020,<ref name=RowlingReasons>{{cite web|title=J.K. Rowling writes about her reasons for speaking out on sex and gender issues |url=https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/ |publisher=JK Rowling |date=10 June 2020 |access-date=10 June 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200610182056/https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/ |archive-date=10 June 2020 |url-status=live}}</ref> she said her views on women's rights arose from her experience as a survivor of domestic abuse and [[sexual assault]].{{sfn|Duggan|2021|pp=160–161)}}<ref name=Shirbon2020>{{cite news |last1=Shirbon |first1=Estelle |title=J.K. Rowling reveals past abuse and defends right to speak on trans issues |url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-rowling/j-k-rowling-reveals-past-abuse-and-defends-right-to-speak-on-trans-issues-idUSKBN23H2XI |publisher=[[Reuters]] |date=10 June 2020 |access-date=13 June 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200611200348/https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-rowling/j-k-rowling-reveals-past-abuse-and-defends-right-to-speak-on-trans-issues-idUSKBN23H2XI |archive-date=11 June 2020 |url-status=live}}</ref> |
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{{cot|Sources}} |
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: I have no problems in adding some text about Rowling shunning the media, if we have such sources. As for the "autobiography" claims, I am not so sure, unless there is wide consensus of sources on the subject or, at least, a significant vioewpoint in this regard (and not some vague speculation by a journalist). [[User:Jossi|≈ jossi ≈]] <small>[[User_talk:Jossi|(talk)]]</small> 18:29, 8 July 2007 (UTC) |
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{{reflist-talk}} |
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{{notelist-talk}} |
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{{cob}} |
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====Discussion of fourth draft==== |
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==Mitford connection== |
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I think we need to look carefully at what the sources are saying. For example, Steinfeld says J.K Rowling has been labeled a TERF ([https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0306422020917609 2nd para])(as opposed to saying she ''is''); Schwirblatt says that one side of the Twitter community labeled her a TERF in reaction to her #IStandWithMaya tweet ([https://books.google.com/books?id=KRN2EAAAQBAJ&lpg=PA359&ots=1YmwKn_ktE&lr&pg=PA368#v=onepage&q&f=false p. 368]); Whited says "Rowling’s manifesto led some people to label her as a trans-exclusionary radical feminist (TERF)", (p.7). This is the reason I kept changing the first sentence; sometimes in response to comments here, sometimes in response to sources. Bottom line is that we have to be careful what we put in Wiki voice. That's why hedging is good, though it does result in tortured prose. But that's often characteristic of writing here. [[User:Victoriaearle|Victoria]] ([[User talk:Victoriaearle|tk]]) 15:29, 1 May 2024 (UTC) |
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I found a good quote from Rowling in the Guardian that sums up why she likes Mitford. Can we add it? [[User:Libertycookies|Libertycookies]] 20:58, 9 July 2007 (UTC) |
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*Would we prefer "Rowling's views are gender-critical"? I'm looking for a simple declarative sentence without vagueness, evasion, or waffle of any kind.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 16:36, 1 May 2024 (UTC) |
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*:I would support that if we feel like we need to for sourcing purposes, though I would say that we can use sources that phrase it like that to source "is a gender-critical feminist" in most cases. Depends some on the particular source, though. [[User:LokiTheLiar|Loki]] ([[User talk:LokiTheLiar|talk]]) 17:57, 1 May 2024 (UTC) |
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*::It's a reasonable fallback. I can't imagine a good faith Wikipedian reading the sources and then denying that she's gender-critical. I'd prefer gender-critical feminist because our page on [[gender-critical feminism]] so clearly captures what Rowling says.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 19:37, 1 May 2024 (UTC) |
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*:::A couple of thoughts. First, we have to hew to the sources. If references exist for the sentence as written, then we should just swap out sources rather than use the ones that don't exactly support it. Another idea would be to use a three-pronged thesis, something along the lines of "Rowling's views about sex and gender have alienated fans, affected her reputation and [fill in the blank]". I suspect something like that would be easier to source.{{pb}}While I'm here a couple of other nitpicks: there's no source for the sentence "She has tweeted a list of transwomen, writing that they are "men, every last one of them". Right now it's cited to Pape but that article is about Ratcliffe if my memory is correct. Also, "principal film stars connected with her work, have condemned her remarks" is in the 2nd para & again in the 3rd. One mentioned should be deleted.{{pb}}The structure is looking much much better! [[User:Victoriaearle|Victoria]] ([[User talk:Victoriaearle|tk]]) 22:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC) |
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*::::Yes, the duplication of principal film stars is one of my nitpicks, and I have a suggestion for how to fix it. If we're on the right track overall, maybe rather than add a list, I could just put up the next draft fixing these nitpicks? [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 11:59, 2 May 2024 (UTC) |
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*::::Re: the inclusion of: 'She has tweeted a list of transwomen, writing that they are "men, every last one of them".': |
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*::::I think it's right that this incident is included because it's notable and there's not much point discussing her views on transgender people if we entirely omit what she's saying to and about transgender people. |
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*::::We should, however, be saying "trans women" rather than "transwomen".<ref>{{cite web |last1=Lopez |first1=German |title=Why you should always use "transgender" instead of "transgendered" |url=https://www.vox.com/2015/2/18/8055691/transgender-transgendered-tnr |website=Vox |access-date=2 May 2024 |language=en |date=18 February 2015 |quote=Writers shouldn't use "transman" or "transwoman." The word trans is an adjective that helps describe someone's gender identity, and it should be treated like other adjectives. Merging the adjective and the noun risks suggesting that a trans man or woman is more (or less) than just a man or just a woman, which goes against how many trans people identify themselves.}}</ref> A point of note is that "transwoman" is deliberately used as a dog whistle by people who deny trans people are of the gender with which they identify; per [[MOS:GIDINFO]], we should use people's gender identity affirmatively. Using "transwomen" as a separate noun differentiates them from other, cisgender women. By contrast, "trans woman" is labelling someone as a woman who happens to be trans.<ref>{{cite web |title=Trans Journalists Association Stylebook and Coverage Guide |url=https://styleguide.transjournalists.org/#def-trans-woman |website=Trans Journalists Association |access-date=2 May 2024 |language=en |date=15 August 2023 |quote=trans woman (n.) Last updated Aug 25, 2023 A woman who is trans. Trans woman is two words, with trans simply modifying the broader category of woman. The one-word compound transwoman is outdated but has recently been adopted by some anti-trans political groups; do not use it in news copy.}}</ref> |
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*::::As mentioned, we also need to provide references for this sentence. Here are some first options to consider: |
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*::::* {{cite web |title=Police say JK Rowling committed no crime with tweets slamming Scotland's new hate speech law |url=https://apnews.com/article/jk-rowling-hate-speech-law-police-7416928367e1b4a15775f1472297a721 |website=AP News |language=en |date=2 April 2024}} |
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*::::* {{cite web |last1=Brooks |first1=Libby |title=JK Rowling’s posts on X will not be recorded as non-crime hate incident |url=https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/apr/03/jk-rowling-comments-scotland-non-crime-hate-incident |website=The Guardian |date=3 April 2024 |ref=none}} |
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*::::* {{cite web |title=J.K. Rowling will not face action under Scottish hate crime laws, police say |url=https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/uk-government-backs-jk-rowling-scottish-hate-crime-law-challenge-2024-04-02/ |website=Reuters|ref=none}} |
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*::::* {{cite web |title=JK Rowling in ‘arrest me’ challenge over Scottish hate crime law |url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c51j64lk2l8o |website=BBC News |date=1 April 2024|ref=none}} |
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*::::* {{cite web |last1=Beal |first1=David Leask, James |title=JK Rowling challenges police: Arrest me under Scottish hate crime law |url=https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/online-misgendering-scotland-hate-crime-law-act-7gsf5t3k3 |language=en |website=The Times |date=2 May 2024 |ref=none}} |
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*::::* {{cite web |last1=Sands |first1=Leo |title=Scotland’s hate speech law ignites culture war far outside its borders |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/04/10/hate-crime-speech-scotland-jk-rowling/ |website=Washington Post |date=10 April 2024|ref=none}} |
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{{cot|Sources}} |
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{{reflist-talk}} |
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{{cob}} |
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*::::I do think it's important to provide context as to why she did make this thread: the perceived possibility that misgendering trans people might become illegal in Scotland under the new act. Although the threshold for criminality is a lot higher than a lot of people seem/seemed to believe, as discussed in the Washington Post article above and by Humza Yousaf who himself said [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-68725547 he wasn't surprised] her comments weren't criminal, she made this thread to be the one to take up the challenge over the chance such comments were now criminal. [[User:13tez|13tez]] ([[User talk:13tez|talk]]) 21:17, 2 May 2024 (UTC) |
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*:::::{{u|13tez}} agree on your comments, but I am not finding the specific quote about "men, every last one of them" in the sources above ... which one has it ? [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 21:36, 2 May 2024 (UTC) |
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*::::::Ah ha ... found in ''The Guardian'' (my first preference for sourcing is usually AP or Reuters, but The Guardian works). [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 21:38, 2 May 2024 (UTC) |
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*:I'd prefer that alernate (16:36, 1 May) as well. Victoria's three-pronged idea works, too; I still dislike the declartive sentence in WikiVoice. And we don't know how she "feels"; we know what she has stated. Overall, I think this draft is headed the right direction. I've got my usual list of nitpicks that I'll put up if others agree that this draft is the way to go overall. I also want to point out that this kind of structured process works!!! If we get it close enough on the next version to call it final, we can ping the world for approval before installing, and then move on to using the same process to re-do the lead. Holding off on my list of nitpicks until others indicate this is close. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 11:44, 2 May 2024 (UTC) |
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*::With a reminder that [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=J._K._Rowling&oldid=1202117364#Transgender_people this is where we started (some elements are still missing)]. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 11:51, 2 May 2024 (UTC) |
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=== Fifth draft === |
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Rowling named her daughter after Jessica Mitford, sister of Nancy, author and avowed communist, whose autobiography Rowling read as a teenager. "Basically, [Mitford] had every single possible component you could want as a 13-year-old leftwinger." http://books.guardian.co.uk/departments/childrenandteens/story/0,,474412,00.html |
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{| class="wikitable" |
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: Not really. You can say that Rowling said in an interview that "[Mitford] had every single possible component you could want as a 13-year-old leftwinger". But you cannot paraphrase the journalist that make that assertion. [[User:Jossi|≈ jossi ≈]] <small>[[User_talk:Jossi|(talk)]]</small> 22:30, 9 July 2007 (UTC) |
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! style="width: 30em;" | Historical [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=J._K._Rowling&oldid=1202117364#Transgender_people 429 words] |
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! style="width: 30em;" | Draft 5; 468 words |
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|- |
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|| {{Main|Political views of J. K. Rowling#Transgender rights}} |
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Rowling's responses to proposed changes to UK gender recognition laws,<ref name= Milne2020>{{cite web|first1= Amber |last1=Milne|first2 = Rachel| last2 =Savage | url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-lgbt-rowling-explainer-trfn-idUSKBN23I3AI | title=Explainer: J. K. Rowling and trans women in single-sex spaces: what's the furore? | publisher=[[Reuters]] | date=11 June 2020 | access-date=6 April 2021 }}</ref><ref name= Brooks2020>{{Cite news|last=Brooks|first=Libby|date=11 June 2020|title=Why is JK Rowling speaking out now on sex and gender debate? |url= http://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/jun/11/why-is-jk-rowling-speaking-out-now-on-sex-and-gender-debate|access-date=14 January 2022 |work= [[The Guardian]] }}</ref>{{efn|The UK laws and proposed changes are the [[Gender Recognition Act 2004]], the [[Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill]] and the related [[Equality Act 2010]].{{sfn|Pedersen|2022|loc=Abstract}}{{sfn|Suissa|Sullivan|2021|pp=66–69}}{{sfn|Duggan|2021|loc=PDF pp. 14–15 (160–161)}} }} and her views on [[sexual identity|sex]] and [[gender identity|gender]], have provoked controversy.{{sfn|Duggan|2021|loc=PDF pp. 14–15 (160–161)}} Her statements have divided [[Feminist views on transgender topics|feminists]];<ref name=Kottasova2019>{{cite news |first1= Ivana |last1= Kottasová |first2= Scottie | last2= Andrew|title= J.K. Rowling's 'transphobia' tweet row spotlights a fight between equality campaigners and radical feminists |publisher= [[CNN]] |date= 20 December 2019 |access-date= 29 March 2022 | url= https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/20/uk/jk-rowling-transgender-explainer-intl-gbr/index.html}}</ref><ref name=BBC2020JKRResponds>{{cite news |url= https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-53002557 |publisher= [[BBC News]] |title= JK Rowling responds to trans tweets criticism |date= 11 June 2020 |access-date= 29 March 2022}}</ref><ref>{{cite news | url=https://www.newstatesman.com/international/2020/09/judith-butler-culture-wars-jk-rowling-and-living-anti-intellectual-times | title=Judith Butler on the culture wars, JK Rowling and living in 'anti-intellectual times'|first=Alona |last=Ferber | work=[[New Statesman]] | date=22 September 2020 | access-date=26 March 2021}}</ref> fuelled<!-- This article uses British spelling --> debates on [[freedom of speech]],{{sfn|Pape|2022|pp=229–230}}<ref>{{cite web|title=BBC nominates J.K.Rowling's controversial essay of trans rights for award|url=https://www.dw.com/en/bbc-nominates-jk-rowlings-controversial-essay-on-trans-rights-for-award/a-56014673|website=[[DW News]]|date=22 December 2020|access-date=22 December 2020}}</ref> [[academic freedom]]{{sfn|Suissa|Sullivan|2021|pp=66–69}} and [[cancel culture]];{{sfn|Schwirblat|Freberg|Freberg|2022|pp=367–369}} and prompted declarations of [[Transgender rights movement|support for transgender people]] from the literary,<ref>UK, US, Canada, Ireland: {{cite news |last= Flood |first= Alison |date=9 October 2020|title= Stephen King, Margaret Atwood and Roxane Gay champion trans rights in open letter|url= https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/oct/09/stephen-king-margaret-atwood-roxane-gay-champion-trans-rights-open-letter-jk-rowling |work= [[The Guardian]] |access-date= 2 April 2022}}</ref> arts<ref>{{cite magazine|last= Rowley |first= Glenn |title= Artists fire back at J.K. Rowling's anti-trans remarks, share messages in support of the community|url= https://www.billboard.com/culture/pride/artists-fire-back-jk-rowling-anti-trans-remarks-9400386/|magazine= [[Billboard (magazine)|Billboard]]|date= 11 June 2020 |access-date= 7 April 2022}}</ref> and culture sectors.<ref>Culture sector: |
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* [[Universal Destinations & Experiences]], [[Warner Bros.]] and [[Scholastic Corporation]]: {{cite news |last1= Siegel |first1= Tatiana |last2= Abramovitch |first2= Seth |date= 10 June 2020 |title= Universal Parks responds to J.K. Rowling tweets: 'Our core values include diversity, inclusion and respect' |work= [[The Hollywood Reporter]] |url= https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/lifestyle/lifestyle-news/universal-parks-responds-jk-rowling-tweets-core-values-include-diversity-inclusion-respect-1297845/ |access-date= 3 April 2022|ref=none}} |
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* [[Warner Bros. Interactive Entertainment]] president: {{cite news |last= Skrebels |first= Joe |title= WB Interactive president responds to ongoing debate over supporting JK Rowling |date=1 October 2020 |url= https://www.ign.com/articles/wb-interactive-president-responds-to-ongoing-debate-over-supporting-jk-rowling |publisher= [[IGN]] |access-date= 2 April 2022|ref=none}}</ref> |
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When [[Maya Forstater]]'s employment contract with the London branch of the [[Center for Global Development]] was not renewed after she tweeted [[Feminist views on transgender topics#Gender-critical feminism and trans-exclusionary radical feminism|gender-critical views]],{{sfn|Pugh|2020|p=7}}<ref name=Stack2019>{{Cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/19/world/europe/jk-rowling-maya-forstater-transgender.html|title=J.K. Rowling criticized after tweeting support for anti-transgender researcher|last=Stack|first=Liam|date=19 December 2019|work=[[The New York Times]]|access-date=13 June 2020| url-access=registration|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200613012737/https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/19/world/europe/jk-rowling-maya-forstater-transgender.html|archive-date=13 June 2020|url-status=live}}</ref> Rowling responded in December 2019 with a tweet that [[transgender]] people should live their lives as they pleased in "peace and security", but questioned women being "force[d] out of their jobs for stating that sex is real".<ref name=Stack2019/>{{efn|A tribunal ruled in 2021 that Forstater's gender-critical views were protected under the 2010 UK [[Equality Act 2010|Equality Act]].<ref name=Faulkner2021>{{cite news |first= Doug |last= Faulkner |url= https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-57426579 |title= Maya Forstater: woman wins tribunal appeal over transgender tweets |publisher= [[BBC News]] |date= 10 June 2021 |access-date= 26 March 2022}}</ref><ref name=Siddique2021>{{cite news |first= Haroon |last= Siddique |date= 10 June 2021 |title= Gender-critical views are a protected belief, appeal tribunal rules|url= https://www.theguardian.com/law/2021/jun/10/gender-critical-views-protected-belief-appeal-tribunal-rules-maya-forstater |work= [[The Guardian]] |access-date= 26 March 2022}}</ref> In July 2022, a new tribunal decision was published (''[[Forstater v Center for Global Development Europe]]'') ruling that Forstater had suffered direct discrimination from her employer.<ref>{{cite news |title=Maya Forstater: Woman discriminated against over trans tweets, tribunal rules|date=6 July 2022 |url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-62061929 |publisher=[[BBC News]] |access-date=6 July 2022}}</ref>}} In another controversial tweet in June 2020,<ref name=Petter2020>{{Cite web|last= Petter|first=Olivia|date=17 September 2020|title=Mermaids writes open letter to JK Rowling following her recent comments on trans people|url=https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/mermaids-jk-rowling-transphobia-transgender-sexual-abuse-domestic-letter-a9565176.html|access-date=26 March 2022|work=[[The Independent]] |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200615235531/https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/mermaids-jk-rowling-transphobia-transgender-sexual-abuse-domestic-letter-a9565176.html |archive-date=15 June 2020}}</ref> Rowling mocked an article for using the phrase "[[people who menstruate]]",<ref name=Gross2020>{{Cite news|last=Gross|first=Jenny|date=7 June 2020|title=Daniel Radcliffe criticizes J.K. Rowling's anti-transgender tweets|work=[[The New York Times]]|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/07/arts/Jk-Rowling-controversy.html |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200607221400/https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/07/arts/Jk-Rowling-controversy.html |archive-date=7 June 2020 |url-access=subscription |url-status=live|access-date=6 January 2022 }}</ref> and tweeted that [[women's rights]] and "lived reality" would be "erased" if "sex isn't real".{{sfn|Duggan|2021|loc=PDF pp. 14–15}}<ref>{{cite magazine|url=https://variety.com/2020/film/news/jk-rowling-transphobic-tweets-controversy-1234627081/|title=J.K. Rowling gets backlash over anti-trans tweets|last=Moreau|first=Jordan|magazine=[[Variety (magazine)|Variety]]|date=6 June 2020|access-date=13 June 2020|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200607005447/https://variety.com/2020/film/news/jk-rowling-transphobic-tweets-controversy-1234627081/|archive-date=7 June 2020|url-status=live}}</ref> |
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::I was thinking the subject could be added to the Early life section? Since the topic of Mitford comes up again and again in Rowling's life, maybe 2 paragraphs? [[User:Libertycookies|Libertycookies]] 23:45, 9 July 2007 (UTC) |
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[[LGBT]] charities and leading actors of the [[Wizarding World]] franchise condemned Rowling's comments;<ref name=Waterson2020>{{Cite news|last= Waterson |first= Jim|title= Children's news website apologises to JK Rowling over trans tweet row|url= https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jul/23/childrens-news-website-apologises-jk-rowling-trans-tweet-day|date= 23 July 2020 |access-date=26 March 2022|work=[[The Guardian]] |quote= Rowling's comments on gender were condemned by LGBT charities and the leading stars of her Harry Potter film franchise.}}</ref><ref name=Lang2020>{{cite magazine |last=Lang |first=Brent |title= Eddie Redmayne criticizes J.K. Rowling's anti-trans tweets |date= 10 June 2020 |url= https://variety.com/2020/film/news/eddie-redmayne-jk-rowling-anti-trans-tweets-harry-potter-fantastic-beasts-1234630226/ |magazine= [[Variety (magazine)|Variety]]|access-date=28 March 2022 |quote= Eddie Redmayne, star of the ''Fantastic Beasts'' franchise, is speaking out against J.K. Rowling's anti-trans tweets, as the controversy surrounding the author and her beliefs continues to swirl.}}</ref>{{efn| [[Daniel Radcliffe]], [[Emma Watson]], [[Rupert Grint]],<ref name= Hibberd2021/> [[Eddie Redmayne]]<ref name=Lang2020/> and others expressed support for the transgender community in reaction to Rowling's comments;<ref>{{cite magazine |first= Maureen |last= Lenker|title= Every Harry Potter actor who's spoken out against J.K. Rowling's controversial trans comments |date= 10 June 2020 |access-date= 1 April 2022 |magazine= [[Entertainment Weekly]]|url=https://ew.com/movies/every-harry-potter-actor-whos-spoken-out-against-j-k-rowlings-controversial-transgender-comments/ }}</ref><ref>{{cite news |first= Maggie |last= Baska|title= Stephen Fry defends 'friendship' with JK Rowling: 'I'm sorry that people are upset' |date= 20 May 2021 |url= https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2021/05/20/stephen-fry-jk-rowling-friend-harry-potter-jordan-b-peterson-podcast-trans/ |publisher= [[PinkNews]] |access-date= 29 March 2022}}</ref> [[Helena Bonham Carter]],<ref name=Evans2022> {{cite news |first= Greg |last= Evans |url= https://deadline.com/2022/11/helena-bonham-carter-johnny-depp-j-k-rowling-1235182523/ |title= Helena Bonham Carter says Johnny Depp 'completely vindicated' in defamation trial, and J.K. Rowling 'hounded' for transgender stance |work= [[Deadline Hollywood]] |access-date= 18 December 2022}}</ref> [[Robbie Coltrane]],<ref>{{cite news |last= Yasharoff |first= Hannah |title= How the 'Harry Potter' reunion addresses author J.K. Rowling's anti-trans controversy |date= 30 December 2021|url= https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/movies/2021/12/30/harry-potter-return-hogwarts-20th-reunion-emma-watson-jk-rowling-controversy/9042955002/ |work= [[USA Today]] |access-date= 2 April 2022}}</ref> and [[Ralph Fiennes]] supported Rowling.<ref name= Hibberd2021>{{cite news |first= James |last= Hibberd |url= https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/ralph-fiennes-defends-j-k-rowling-amid-trans-controversy-says-backlash-is-disturbing-4151944/ |title= Ralph Fiennes defends J.K. rowling amid trans controversy, says backlash is 'disturbing' |date= 17 March 2021 |access-date=26 March 2022 |work= [[The Hollywood Reporter]]}}</ref>}} [[GLAAD]] called them "cruel" and "inaccurate".<ref name= Yasharoff2020> {{cite news |last= Yasharoff |first=Hannah|url= https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/celebrities/2020/06/07/j-k-rowling-harry-potter-author-slammed-transphobic-comments/3169833001/ |title= J.K. Rowling reveals she's a sexual assault survivor; Emma Watson reacts to trans comments |work= [[USA Today]] |date= 10 June 2020 |access-date= 27 March 2022}}</ref> Rowling responded with an essay on her website<ref name=RowlingReasons>{{cite web|title=J.K. Rowling writes about her reasons for speaking out on sex and gender issues |url=https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/ |publisher=JK Rowling |date=10 June 2020 |access-date=10 June 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200610182056/https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/ |archive-date=10 June 2020 |url-status=live}}</ref> in which she revealed that her views on women's rights were informed by her experience as a survivor of domestic abuse and [[sexual assault]].<ref name=Shirbon2020>{{cite news |last1=Shirbon |first1=Estelle |title=J.K. Rowling reveals past abuse and defends right to speak on trans issues |url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-rowling/j-k-rowling-reveals-past-abuse-and-defends-right-to-speak-on-trans-issues-idUSKBN23H2XI |publisher=[[Reuters]] |date=10 June 2020 |access-date=13 June 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200611200348/https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-rowling/j-k-rowling-reveals-past-abuse-and-defends-right-to-speak-on-trans-issues-idUSKBN23H2XI |archive-date=11 June 2020 |url-status=live}}</ref> While affirming that "the majority of trans-identified people not only pose zero threat to others, but are vulnerable ... Trans people need and deserve protection", she believed that it would be unsafe to allow "any man who believes or feels he's a woman" into bathrooms or changing rooms.<ref name= Shirbon2020/><ref>{{cite news |last1=Gonzalez |first1=Sandra |title=J.K. Rowling explains her gender identity views in essay amid backlash |url=https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/10/entertainment/jk-rowling/index.html |access-date=16 September 2023 |work=[[CNN]] |date=10 June 2020}}</ref><ref>{{cite news |last1=Garrand |first1=Danielle |title= J.K. Rowling defends herself after accusations of making "anti-trans" comments on Twitter |url=https://www.cbsnews.com/news/j-k-rowling-defends-anti-trans-comments-twitter/ |access-date=16 September 2023 |work=[[CBS News]] |date=11 June 2020}}</ref> Writing of her own experiences with [[sexism]] and [[misogyny]],<ref>{{cite news |first= Sian |last= Cain |date= 11 June 2020 |title= JK Rowling reveals she is survivor of domestic abuse and sexual assault |url= https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/jun/10/jk-rowling-says-survivor-of-domestic-abuse-sexual-assault |work= [[The Guardian]] |access-date= 29 March 2022}}</ref> she wondered if the "allure of escaping womanhood" would have led her to [[Gender transitioning|transition]] if she had been born later, and said that trans activism was "seeking to erode 'woman' as a political and biological class".<ref name=DAlessandro2020>{{cite news |last=D'Alessandro |first=Anthony |title=J.K. Rowling defends trans statements in lengthy essay, reveals she's a sexual assault survivor & says 'trans people need and deserve protection' |url=https://deadline.com/2020/06/j-k-rowling-defends-trans-statements-essay-1202955524/ |access-date=5 January 2022 |work=[[Deadline Hollywood]] |date=10 June 2020}}</ref> |
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:::When Rowling was a young teen, she overheard her great-aunt discussing how [[Jessica Mitford]] had run away at the age of 19 to fight with the [[Reds]] in the [[Spanish Civil War]]. Rowling says her great-aunt, "who taught classics and approved of a thirst for knowledge, even of a questionable kind" then gave her a very old copy of Mitford's autobiography, [[Hons and Rebels]]." [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?xml=/arts/2006/11/26/bomit05.xml] Rowling said in [[the Scotsman]], "I wished I'd had the nerve to do something like [Mitford had done]. I love the way she never outgrew some of her adolescent traits, remaining true to her politics - she was a self-taught [[socialist]] - throughout her life. |
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Rowling's continual statements – beginning in 2017{{sfn|Duggan|2021|loc=PDF pp. 14–15 (160–161)}}<ref name= Jacobs2023>{{cite news |last= Jacobs |first= Julia |title= Hogwarts legacy can't cast aside debate over J. K. Rowling |url= https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/09/arts/hogwarts-legacy-jk-rowling.html |date= 9 February 2023 |work = [[The New York Times]] |access-date= 14 July 2023}}</ref><ref name= Spangler2023>{{cite news |last= Spangler|first= Todd |title= J.K. Rowling addresses backlash to her anti-trans comments in new podcast: 'I never set out to upset anyone' |url= https://variety.com/2023/digital/news/jk-rowling-anti-trans-comments-podcast-witch-trials-1235522301/ |date= 14 February 2023|work= [[Variety (magazine)|Variety]]|access-date= 14 July 2023}}</ref> – have been called transphobic by critics<ref name= Breznican2023>{{cite news |last= Breznican |first= Anthony |title= J.K. Rowling will oversee a new streaming ''Harry Potter'' series |url= https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2023/04/jk-rowling-harry-potter-series|date= 12 April 2023 |work= [[Vanity Fair (magazine)|Vanity Fair]] |access-date= 14 July 2023}}</ref><ref name=Rosenblatt2020>{{Cite web|last = Rosenblatt| first =Kalhan |title=J.K. Rowling doubles down in what some critics call a 'transphobic manifesto' |url= https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/j-k-rowling-doubles-down-what-some-critics-call-transphobic-n1229351|date= 10 June 2020 |access-date=19 January 2022|publisher=[[NBC News]] }}</ref> and she has been referred to as a [[TERF (acronym)|TERF]].<ref name= Rosenblatt2020/>{{sfn|Steinfeld|2020|pp=34–35}}{{sfn|Schwirblat|Freberg|Freberg|2022|pp=367–368}} She rejects these characterisations and the notion that she holds animosity towards transgender people, saying that her viewpoint has been misunderstood.<ref name=RowlingReasons/><ref name= Breznican2023/><ref name= Spangler2023/> Criticism of Rowling's views has come from the ''Harry Potter'' fansites [[MuggleNet]] and [[The Leaky Cauldron (website)|The Leaky Cauldron]];<ref name=FanSites>{{cite news|url=https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/03/harry-potter-fan-sites-distance-themselves-from-jk-rowling-over-transgender-rights|title=Harry Potter fan sites distance themselves from JK Rowling over transgender rights|publisher=[[Reuters]]|work=[[The Guardian]]|date=3 July 2020|access-date=3 July 2020|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200703011204/https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/03/harry-potter-fan-sites-distance-themselves-from-jk-rowling-over-transgender-rights|archive-date=3 July 2020|url-status=live}}</ref> and the charities [[Mermaids (charity)|Mermaids]],<ref name=Petter2020/> [[Stonewall (charity)|Stonewall]],<ref>{{cite news | url=https://www.newstatesman.com/long-reads/2021/11/the-battle-for-stonewall-the-lgbt-charity-and-the-uks-gender-wars | title=The battle for Stonewall: the LGBT charity and the UK's gender wars | work=[[New Statesman]]|first=Gaby |last=Hinsliff|date=3 November 2021 | access-date=24 November 2021}}</ref> and [[Human Rights Campaign]].<ref>{{cite news |first= Elise |last= Brisco |title=Dave Chappelle says he's 'Team TERF,' defends J.K. Rowling in new Netflix comedy special|url= https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/tv/2021/10/05/dave-chappelle-terf-defends-j-k-rowling-netflix-special/6002017001/ |work= [[USA Today]] |date= 8 October 2021|access-date= 29 March 2022}}</ref> After [[Kerry Kennedy]] expressed "profound disappointment" in her views, Rowling returned the [[Ripple of Hope Award]] given to her by the Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights organisation.<ref name=RFKAward>{{cite news |last=Flood|first=Alison |url= https://amp.theguardian.com/books/2020/aug/28/jk-rowling-robert-f-kennedy-human-rights-award-trans-views|title=JK Rowling returns human rights award to group that denounces her trans views |work=[[The Guardian]]|date=28 August 2020|access-date=28 August 2020}}</ref> |
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:::Rowling told [[the Scotsman]] she read all of Mitford's books, [http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/2002/1102-fraser-scotsman.html] and Rowling wrote an article about Mitford for [[the Telegraph]], [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?xml=/arts/2006/11/26/bomit05.xml| ''The First "It" Girl.''] Rowling said in [[the Guardian]] that "[Mitford] had every single possible component you could want as a 13-year-old [[leftwinger]]." [http://books.guardian.co.uk/departments/childrenandteens/story/0,,474412,00.html] |
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As Rowling's views on the [[legal status of transgender people]] came under scrutiny,{{sfn|Suissa|Sullivan|2021|pp=66–69}} she received insults and death threats{{sfn|Suissa|Sullivan|2021|p=69}}{{sfn|Qiao|2022|p=1323}} and discussion moved beyond the Twitter community.{{sfn|Schwirblat|Freberg|Freberg|2022|p=368}} Some performers and feminists have supported her.{{sfn|Schwirblat|Freberg|Freberg|2022|p=368}}<ref> Supporting Rowling: |
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::::See: [[Harry Potter influences and analogues]] [[User:Serendipodous|Serendipodous]] 08:39, 10 July 2007 (UTC) |
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* [[Ayaan Hirsi Ali]]: {{cite news |first=Katie |last=Law |date= 15 October 2020|title= JK Rowling and the bitter battle of the book world |url=https://www.standard.co.uk/culture/books/trans-battle-book-world-jk-rowling-a4571221.html |work= [[Evening Standard]] |access-date=27 March 2022|ref=none}} |
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* [[Allison Bailey]]: {{cite news |url= https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/maya-forstater-transgender-twitter-jk-rowling-b1838151.html |title= Maya Forstater: who is woman in employment tribunal over transgender comments? |first= Sam |last= Hancock |date= 27 April 2021 |work= [[The Independent]] |access-date= 27 March 2022|archive-url= https://web.archive.org/web/20210427131430/https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/maya-forstater-transgender-twitter-jk-rowling-b1838151.html |archive-date= 27 April 2021 |quote= criminal defence barrister Allison Bailey – known for launching legal action against LGBT+ rights charity Stonewall over its attempt to have her investigated for setting up the anti-trans rights group LGB Alliance – has also been a vocal supporter of Ms Forstater.|ref=none}} |
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* [[Julie Bindel]]: {{cite news |last1=Thorpe |first1=Vanessa |title=JK Rowling: from magic to the heart of a Twitter storm |url=https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/jun/14/jk-rowling-from-magic-to-the-heart-of-a-twitter-storm |work=[[The Guardian]] |date=14 June 2020 |quote=Arrayed on Rowling's side are some of the veteran voices of feminism, including the radical Julie Bindel, who spoke out in support this weekend |access-date=6 July 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200704200412/https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/jun/14/jk-rowling-from-magic-to-the-heart-of-a-twitter-storm |archive-date=4 July 2020 |url-status=live|ref=none}} |
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* [[Dave Chappelle]]: {{Cite news |first= Maya |last=Yang|date=7 October 2021|title='I'm team Terf': Dave Chappelle under fire over pro-JK Rowling trans stance|url=https://www.theguardian.com/stage/2021/oct/07/dave-chappelle-transgender-netflix-special-backlash|access-date=27 March 2022|work=[[The Guardian]]|ref=none}} |
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* [[Dana International]]: {{cite news |last1=Shirbon |first1=Estelle |title=J.K. Rowling reveals past abuse and defends right to speak on trans issues |url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-rowling/j-k-rowling-reveals-past-abuse-and-defends-right-to-speak-on-trans-issues-idUSKBN23H2XI |publisher=[[Reuters]] |date=10 June 2020 |access-date=13 June 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200611200348/https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-rowling/j-k-rowling-reveals-past-abuse-and-defends-right-to-speak-on-trans-issues-idUSKBN23H2XI |archive-date=11 June 2020 |url-status=live|ref=none}} |
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* [[Eddie Izzard]]: {{cite news |title='I don't think JK Rowling is transphobic,' says gender-fluid comedian Eddie Izzard |url=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/comedy/what-to-see/dont-think-jk-rowling-transphobic-says-gender-fluid-comedian/ |archive-url=https://ghostarchive.org/archive/20220110/https://www.telegraph.co.uk/comedy/what-to-see/dont-think-jk-rowling-transphobic-says-gender-fluid-comedian/ |archive-date=10 January 2022 |url-access=subscription |url-status=live |access-date=27 November 2021 |work=[[The Daily Telegraph]]|date=1 January 2021|ref=none}}{{cbignore}} |
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* [[Kathleen Stock]], [[Alison Moyet]]: {{cite news |url= https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-53002557 |publisher= [[BBC News]] |title= JK Rowling responds to trans tweets criticism |date= 11 June 2020 |access-date= 29 March 2022}}</ref> Figures from the arts world criticised "hate speech directed against her".<ref name= Flockhart2020>{{cite news |last= Flockhart |first= Gary |date= 28 September 2020 |access-date= 2 April 2022 |work = [[The Scotsman]] |title= JK Rowling receives support from Ian McEwan and Frances Barber amid 'transphobia' row|url= https://www.scotsman.com/news/people/jk-rowling-receives-support-from-ian-mcewan-and-frances-barber-amid-transphobia-row-2986268|ref=none}}</ref> |
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|| {{Main|Political views of J. K. Rowling#Transgender rights}} |
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:::::Rowling is a real person, and Harry Potter is a fictional character in a book. There may be reason to keep it in the HP article, since names and themes seem to come from Mitford's books. Posted in the article unless there is a legitimate complaint. [[User:Libertycookies|Libertycookies]] 22:40, 10 July 2007 (UTC) |
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::::::: Too long, though, giving undue weight to that specific comment. Please summarize and keep the quotes in the footnotes. One sentence will suffice. If you do not know how to summarize, ask. [[User:Jossi|≈ jossi ≈]] <small>[[User_talk:Jossi|(talk)]]</small> 23:10, 10 July 2007 (UTC) |
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Rowling has espoused views referred to as [[Feminist views on transgender topics#Gender-critical feminism and trans-exclusionary radical feminism|gender-critical]].{{sfn|Whited|2024|loc= p. 7. "But in June 2020, Rowling's manifesto led some people to label her as a trans-exclusionary radical feminist (TERF), a term first used in 2008 that has more recently evolved as 'gender critical'."}}{{sfn|Steinfeld|2020|loc= pp. 34–35. "Just ask JK Rowling and other women who have been labelled as Terfs"}}{{sfn|Schwirblat|Freberg|Freberg|2022|loc= pp. 367–368. "This sparked a heated discussion within the Twitter community, one side buttressing Rowling's statements, and the other espousing her as a trans-exclusionary radical feminist (TERF)"}} She has often shared opinions on [[Transgender rights movement|transgender rights]], mostly in the context of proposed legal changes in Scotland that would make it easier to [[transgender|transition]].<ref name= Milne2020>{{cite web|first1= Amber |last1=Milne|first2 = Rachel| last2 =Savage | url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-lgbt-rowling-explainer-trfn-idUSKBN23I3AI | title=Explainer: J. K. Rowling and trans women in single-sex spaces: what's the furore? | publisher=[[Reuters]] | date=11 June 2020 | access-date=6 April 2021 }}</ref><ref name= Brooks2020>{{Cite news|last=Brooks|first=Libby|date=11 June 2020|title=Why is JK Rowling speaking out now on sex and gender debate? |url= http://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/jun/11/why-is-jk-rowling-speaking-out-now-on-sex-and-gender-debate|access-date=14 January 2022 |work= [[The Guardian]] }}</ref>{{efn|The UK laws and proposed changes are the [[Gender Recognition Act 2004]], the [[Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill]] and the related [[Equality Act 2010]].{{sfn|Pedersen|2022|loc=Abstract}}{{sfn|Suissa|Sullivan|2021|pp=66–69}}{{sfn|Duggan|2021|loc=PDF pp. 14–15 (160–161)}} }} She has suggested that children and [[cisgender]] women are threatened by trans women and trans-positive messages.{{sfn|Duggan|2021|p=161}} In April 2024, responding to [[Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Act 2021|Scotland's Hate Crime and Public Order Act]], she tweeted a list of trans women, writing that they are "men, every last one of them".<ref name=Brooks2024>{{cite news |last1=Brooks |first1=Libby |title=JK Rowling’s posts on X will not be recorded as non-crime hate incident |url=https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/apr/03/jk-rowling-comments-scotland-non-crime-hate-incident |work=[[The Guardian]] |date=3 April 2024 |access-date= 3 May 2024}}</ref> Her remarks have provoked condemnation,{{sfn|Duggan|2021|loc=PDF pp. 14–15 (160–161)}}{{sfn|Schwirblat|Freberg|Freberg|2022|pp=367–369}}{{sfn|Pape|2022|pp=229–230, 238}} while sales of ''Harry Potter'' books following some of her comments grew by 28% during the [[COVID-19]] lockdown.{{sfn|Pape|2022|p=238}}<ref> {{cite news |first=Mark |last= Sweney |title= Harry Potter books prove UK lockdown hit despite JK Rowling trans rights row |work= [[The Guardian]] |date= 21 July 2020 |url= https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jul/21/jk-rowling-book-sales-unaffected-by-transgender-views-row |access-date= 3 May 2024}}</ref> |
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::::::::It's long because Rowling is such a Mitford fanatic. Which specific comment? The first sentence is long because it addresses both Mitford and her great aunt both of whom had a strong influence on Rowling. It actually is very short for the amount of information it conveys. [[User:Libertycookies|Libertycookies]] 23:41, 10 July 2007 (UTC) |
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Controversy over Rowling's gender-critical messaging started in 2017.{{sfn|Duggan|2021|pp=160–161)}} It became more fraught in 2019 when she defended [[Maya Forstater]],{{sfn|Whited|2024|pp=6-8}} whose employment contract with the London branch of the [[Center for Global Development]] was not renewed after she expressed gender-critical views.{{sfn|Pugh|2020|p=7}} Rowling wrote that trans people should live in "peace and security", but questioned women being "force[d] out of their jobs for stating that sex is real".<ref name=Stack2019/>{{efn|A tribunal ruled in 2021 that Forstater's gender-critical views were protected under the 2010 UK [[Equality Act 2010|Equality Act]].<ref name=Faulkner2021>{{cite news |first= Doug |last= Faulkner |url= https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-57426579 |title= Maya Forstater: woman wins tribunal appeal over transgender tweets |publisher= [[BBC News]] |date= 10 June 2021 |access-date= 26 March 2022}}</ref><ref name=Siddique2021>{{cite news |first= Haroon |last= Siddique |date= 10 June 2021 |title= Gender-critical views are a protected belief, appeal tribunal rules|url= https://www.theguardian.com/law/2021/jun/10/gender-critical-views-protected-belief-appeal-tribunal-rules-maya-forstater |work= [[The Guardian]] |access-date= 26 March 2022}}</ref>{{sfn|Pape|2022|p=230}} In July 2022, a new tribunal decision was published (''[[Forstater v Center for Global Development Europe]]'') ruling that Forstater had suffered direct discrimination from her employer.<ref>{{cite news |title=Maya Forstater: Woman discriminated against over trans tweets, tribunal rules|date=6 July 2022 |url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-62061929 |publisher=[[BBC News]] |access-date=6 July 2022}}</ref>}} ''Harry Potter'' scholar Lana Whited writes that in the next six months "Rowling herself fanned the flames as she became increasingly vocal".{{sfn|Whited|2024|p=6}} In June 2020,{{sfn|Whited|2024|p=6}} Rowling mocked the phrase "[[people who menstruate]]",<ref name=Gross2020>{{Cite news|last=Gross|first=Jenny|date=7 June 2020|title=Daniel Radcliffe criticizes J.K. Rowling's anti-transgender tweets|work=[[The New York Times]]|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/07/arts/Jk-Rowling-controversy.html |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200607221400/https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/07/arts/Jk-Rowling-controversy.html |archive-date=7 June 2020 |url-access=subscription |url-status=live|access-date=6 January 2022 }}</ref> and tweeted that [[women's rights]] and "lived reality" would be "erased" if "sex isn't real".{{sfn|Duggan|2021|pp=14–15}}{{sfn|Pugh|2020|p=7}} |
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:::::::::: It is too long ''in relation'' to the section about "Early life". Give it a try. [[User:Jossi|≈ jossi ≈]] <small>[[User_talk:Jossi|(talk)]]</small> 00:29, 11 July 2007 (UTC) |
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==Rowling in secondary school== |
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Rowling's views have impacted her reputation. As her views on the [[legal status of transgender people]] came under scrutiny,{{sfn|Suissa|Sullivan|2021|pp=66–69}} she received insults and threats{{sfn|Suissa|Sullivan|2021|p=69}}{{sfn|Whited|2024|p=9}} and discussion moved beyond the Twitter community.{{sfn|Schwirblat|Freberg|Freberg|2022|p=368}} Fans turned away from her work, boycotted events, and publishers hesitated to accept her work.{{sfn|Whited|2024|p=8}} Criticism came from the ''Harry Potter'' fansites [[MuggleNet]] and [[The Leaky Cauldron (website)|The Leaky Cauldron]],{{sfn|Henderson|2022|p=224}} and [[LGBT]] charities [[Mermaids (charity)|Mermaids]],<ref name=Petter2020>{{Cite web|last= Petter|first=Olivia|date=17 September 2020|title=Mermaids writes open letter to JK Rowling following her recent comments on trans people|url=https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/mermaids-jk-rowling-transphobia-transgender-sexual-abuse-domestic-letter-a9565176.html|access-date=26 March 2022|work=[[The Independent]] |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200615235531/https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/mermaids-jk-rowling-transphobia-transgender-sexual-abuse-domestic-letter-a9565176.html |archive-date=15 June 2020}}</ref> [[Stonewall (charity)|Stonewall]],<ref>{{cite news | url=https://www.newstatesman.com/long-reads/2021/11/the-battle-for-stonewall-the-lgbt-charity-and-the-uks-gender-wars | title=The battle for Stonewall: the LGBT charity and the UK's gender wars | work=[[New Statesman]]|first=Gaby |last=Hinsliff|date=3 November 2021 | access-date=24 November 2021}}</ref> and [[Human Rights Campaign]].<ref name= Milne2020/> [[GLAAD]] called Rowling's comments "cruel" and "inaccurate".<ref name=AP7June2020>{{cite news |title= JK Rowling's tweets on transgender people spark outrage |date= 7 June 2020 |url= https://apnews.com/article/entertainment-jk-rowling-us-news-media-7338b2b262090c00f04deafe2e6689c2 |publisher= [[Associated Press]] |access-date= 4 May 2024}}</ref> Leading actors of the [[Wizarding World]] spoke out against her stance;<ref name=Waterson2020>{{Cite news|last= Waterson |first= Jim|title= Children's news website apologises to JK Rowling over trans tweet row|url= https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jul/23/childrens-news-website-apologises-jk-rowling-trans-tweet-day|date= 23 July 2020 |access-date=26 March 2022|work=[[The Guardian]] |quote= Rowling's comments on gender were condemned by LGBT charities and the leading stars of her Harry Potter film franchise.}}</ref><ref name=Lang2020>{{cite magazine |last=Lang |first=Brent |title= Eddie Redmayne criticizes J.K. Rowling's anti-trans tweets |date= 10 June 2020 |url= https://variety.com/2020/film/news/eddie-redmayne-jk-rowling-anti-trans-tweets-harry-potter-fantastic-beasts-1234630226/ |magazine= [[Variety (magazine)|Variety]]|access-date=28 March 2022 |quote= Eddie Redmayne, star of the ''Fantastic Beasts'' franchise, is speaking out against J.K. Rowling's anti-trans tweets, as the controversy surrounding the author and her beliefs continues to swirl.}}</ref> [[Daniel Radcliffe]], [[Emma Watson]], [[Rupert Grint]], [[Eddie Redmayne]] and others declared support for the transgender community.{{sfn|Borah|2024|p=375}}{{efn| [[Helena Bonham Carter]],<ref name=Evans2022> {{cite news |first= Greg |last= Evans |url= https://deadline.com/2022/11/helena-bonham-carter-johnny-depp-j-k-rowling-1235182523/ |title= Helena Bonham Carter says Johnny Depp 'completely vindicated' in defamation trial, and J.K. Rowling 'hounded' for transgender stance |work= [[Deadline Hollywood]] |access-date= 18 December 2022}}</ref> [[Robbie Coltrane]],<ref>{{cite news |last= Yasharoff |first= Hannah |title= How the 'Harry Potter' reunion addresses author J.K. Rowling's anti-trans controversy |date= 30 December 2021|url= https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/movies/2021/12/30/harry-potter-return-hogwarts-20th-reunion-emma-watson-jk-rowling-controversy/9042955002/ |work= [[USA Today]] |access-date= 2 April 2022}}</ref> and [[Ralph Fiennes]] supported Rowling.<ref name= Hibberd2021>{{cite news |first= James |last= Hibberd |url= https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/ralph-fiennes-defends-j-k-rowling-amid-trans-controversy-says-backlash-is-disturbing-4151944/ |title= Ralph Fiennes defends J.K. rowling amid trans controversy, says backlash is 'disturbing' |date= 17 March 2021 |access-date=26 March 2022 |work= [[The Hollywood Reporter]]}}</ref>}} After [[Kerry Kennedy]] expressed "profound disappointment" in her views, Rowling returned the [[Ripple of Hope Award]] given to her by the Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights organisation.<ref name=RFKAward>{{cite news |last=Flood|first=Alison |url= https://amp.theguardian.com/books/2020/aug/28/jk-rowling-robert-f-kennedy-human-rights-award-trans-views|title=JK Rowling returns human rights award to group that denounces her trans views |work=[[The Guardian]]|date=28 August 2020|access-date=28 August 2020}}</ref> |
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We need to bolster that section. Maybe mention her friend who owned a Ford Anglia and she said she based Ron Weasley on. Mention her punky phase, where she listened to the Clash, Smiths and Siouxsie and the Banshees or how she sas a swot like Hermoine, whom she said was somewhat autobiographical. |
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We should really include what happened to her in the period of time when her characters in the books are growing up. [[User:Libertycookies|Libertycookies]] 22:55, 10 July 2007 (UTC) |
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Rowling rejects these characterisations and denies being transphobic.<ref name=RowlingReasons>{{cite web|title=J.K. Rowling writes about her reasons for speaking out on sex and gender issues |url=https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/ |publisher=JK Rowling |date=10 June 2020 |access-date=10 June 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200610182056/https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/ |archive-date=10 June 2020 |url-status=live}}</ref><ref name= Dismisses>{{cite news |title= JK Rowling dismisses backlash over trans comments: 'I don't care about my legacy' |date= 22 February 2023|url= https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-64729304 |publisher= [[BBC News]] |access-date= 3 May 2024}}</ref> In an essay posted on her website in June 2020 – that Tolando Henderson{{sfn|Henderson|2022|p=224}} and Whited state left trans people feeling betrayed{{sfn|Whited|2024|p=7}} – Rowling said her views on women's rights arose from her experience as a survivor of domestic abuse and [[sexual assault]].{{sfn|Duggan|2021|pp=160–161)}}<ref name=Shirbon2020>{{cite news |last1=Shirbon |first1=Estelle |title=J.K. Rowling reveals past abuse and defends right to speak on trans issues |url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-rowling/j-k-rowling-reveals-past-abuse-and-defends-right-to-speak-on-trans-issues-idUSKBN23H2XI |publisher=[[Reuters]] |date=10 June 2020 |access-date=13 June 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200611200348/https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-rowling/j-k-rowling-reveals-past-abuse-and-defends-right-to-speak-on-trans-issues-idUSKBN23H2XI |archive-date=11 June 2020 |url-status=live}}</ref> While affirming that "the majority of trans-identified people not only pose zero threat to others, but are vulnerable ... Trans people need and deserve protection", she wrote that it would be unsafe to allow "any man who believes or feels he's a woman" into bathrooms or changing rooms.<ref name= Shirbon2020/><ref>{{cite news |last1=Gonzalez |first1=Sandra |title=J.K. Rowling explains her gender identity views in essay amid backlash |url=https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/10/entertainment/jk-rowling/index.html |access-date=16 September 2023 |publisher=[[CNN]] |date=10 June 2020}}</ref><ref>{{cite news |last1=Garrand |first1=Danielle |title=J.K. Rowling defends herself after accusations of making 'anti-trans' comments on Twitter |url=https://www.cbsnews.com/news/j-k-rowling-defends-anti-trans-comments-twitter/ |access-date=16 September 2023 |publisher=[[CBS News]] |date=11 June 2020}}</ref> Whited asserted in 2024 that Rowling's sometimes "flippant" and "simplistic understanding of gender identity" had permanently changed her "relationship not only with fans, readers, and scholars ... but also with her works themselves".{{sfn|Whited|2024|pp=6, 8–9}} |
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: Sure, that will be a great addition, if we have sources for it, that is. [[User:Jossi|≈ jossi ≈]] <small>[[User_talk:Jossi|(talk)]]</small> 23:12, 10 July 2007 (UTC) |
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{{cot|Sources}} |
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::"My favorite group in the world is the Smiths. And when I was going through a punky phase, it was the Clash." -J.K. Rowling ''Conversations with J.K. Rowling'', Scholastic. pg 29. (more about Mitford on pg 27...) |
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{{reflist-talk}} |
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{{notelist-talk}} |
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{{cob}} |
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==== Discussion of fifth draft ==== |
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::Sean Harris, her best friend in the Upper Sixth [12th grade] owned a turquoise Ford Anglia. "Ron Weasley isn't a living portrait of Sean, but he really is very Sean-ish. -Rowling, ibid, pg 19-20. |
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I think the fourth draft is a great improvement. In Draft 5, I tried to address the following (which I consider minor): |
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# Address the uncited statement "every last one of them" sentence. |
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::"Hermione is loosely based on me. She's a caricature of me when I was 11, which I'm not particularly proud of. She's quite annoying in a lot of ways. I like her as a character, but I'm very aware that some people wouldn't." [http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/1999/0999-slj-feldman.htm] |
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# Address the lead declarative sentence. |
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::: Mmmmm.... not so sure about the last one, but will not oppose 1 and 2, Just please attribute it properly to the source: Feldman, Roxanne. "The Truth about Harry," School Library Journal, September 1999. [[User:Jossi|≈ jossi ≈]] <small>[[User_talk:Jossi|(talk)]]</small> 00:31, 11 July 2007 (UTC) |
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# Work back in some of the laws so readers (particularly those not from the UK) are given some idea what these laws are. |
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==re: Rowling's marriage to Jorge Arantes== |
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# Fix duplicate on supporting actors. |
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In light of Jossi's removal of what I assumed was a sourced comment, it seems pertinent to discuss whether it would be relevant or within guidelines to seek out proper sources regarding her supposedly abusive marriage to Jorge Arantes. There are sources I could post, but I'm not sure how reliable they could be. Even if I could find an impartial source, how relevant to the topic would such information be? The most vivid account was given by Rowling's father to the Daily Mirror: [http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4161/is_20030622/ai_n12869848], but given what he subsequently told the Mirror a few months later, [http://www.snitchseeker.com/harry-potter-news/i-ve-lost-j-k-peter-rowling-12546/]he hardly seems like an impartial witness to events. ''The Scotsman'' has a very detailed account of their marriage as well [http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?id=662772003&tid=3] though I wouldn't give the writer points for journalistic integrity or objectivity. But then, when can you these days? [[User:Serendipodous|Serendipodous]] 17:27, 11 July 2007 (UTC) |
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# Threats to her safety which was deleted is supported by Whited |
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# Transwomen to trans women |
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# Address the word ''feels'' |
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# The [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=J._K._Rowling&oldid=1222030423#Views broader introduction to this section in the article already addresses that she often/frequently uses twitter], so some redundancy there. |
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# Fix all the citation formatting to agree with the article style. |
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[[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 03:39, 3 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:PS, this statement needs a more concrete time frame: "although sales of Harry Potter books grew by 28% after she made them" ... I haven't had a chance to check Pape, but we should specify change from x year to y or something. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 03:44, 3 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:You could source the removed material to ''J.K. Rowling a biography'' pg 115. Smith, Sean. Michael O'Mara Books, LTD 2001, 2003. There are numerous accounts of the volativity of her marriage, so probably just what was there is sufficient. [[User:Libertycookies|Libertycookies]] 20:25, 11 July 2007 (UTC) |
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::Here's the source that Pape cites: |
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::Rowling absolutely loathes that book, and from what I've read of it, I'm not surprised. I wouldn't describe it as a reliable source; it makes some pretty spectacular logical leaps, connecting every minor event in the books to every major event in her life without a shred of evidence in support. [[User:Serendipodous|Serendipodous]] 05:48, 12 July 2007 (UTC) |
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::* {{cite news |first=Mark |last= Sweney |title= Harry Potter books prove UK lockdown hit despite JK Rowling trans rights row |work= [[The Guardian]] |date= 21 July 2020 |url= https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jul/21/jk-rowling-book-sales-unaffected-by-transgender-views-row |access-date= 3 May 2024|ref=none}} |
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:::I agree there is a lot of speculation in that book, but it has been published twice, and to my knowledge no challenges from Rowling either in the courts or on her website about the "being thrown out by Arantes." It's not a subject I'm very passionate about including, but you could attribute the "rumored being thrown out" quote to Smith saying "he claims". Many of the other articles you mention probably just feed from Smith or from hearsay, as much of Smith's work. He is probably the most liable if it is a question of defamation. |
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::[[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 14:52, 3 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Other suggestions? [[User:Libertycookies|Libertycookies]] 13:07, 12 July 2007 (UTC) |
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::: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AJ._K._Rowling&diff=1222044690&oldid=1222044077 Added], [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 15:01, 3 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::: I will not use that book as a source for biographical aspects. If there is ''substantial'' sources and therie is wide consensus of sources about it, then we should consider it. Otherwise, it is a private matter and not relevant to her notability. [[User:Jossi|≈ jossi ≈]] <small>[[User_talk:Jossi|(talk)]]</small> 16:07, 12 July 2007 (UTC) |
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*I'm afraid I'm going to bang on about starting each paragraph with a [[simple sentence|simple]] [[declarative sentence|declarative]] [[topic sentence]] again. I think encyclopaedia writers are educators, and I feel it's important to write in an educational way. Introduce each idea before we explain it. |
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:::Its also in ''Muggles and Magic'' pg 13 by George Beahm, but was attributed to "The J.K. Rowling Story" by Stephen McGinty, The Scotsman. The media seems to be pretty incestuous on the sorrid details of her marriage. How about putting it in her words? [[User:Libertycookies|Libertycookies]] 19:10, 12 July 2007 (UTC) |
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# The new draft's first paragraph begins with a [[compound sentence]], which means a sentence with sub-clauses. Let's preface it with: "Rowling's views are gender-critical." |
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:::Rowling says in ''Conversations with J.K. Rowling,'' (pg 42-43) that "having Jessica was without a doubt, the best moment of [her] life." She explains that she moved to Edinburgh because "it became clear that my marriage wasn't working, and I decided it would be easier if I came back to Britain." |
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# The second paragraph begins with a compound sentence. We can fix that by changing "Controversy over Rowling's gender-critical messaging started in 2017, and became more fraught in 2019..." to "Controversy over Rowling's gender-critical messaging started in 2017. It became more fraught in 2019..." |
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#: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:J._K._Rowling&diff=prev&oldid=1222038721 Done]. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 14:20, 3 May 2024 (UTC) |
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# The third and fourth paragraphs start well. |
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:I know I've said this several times, and I'm sorry to keep badgering on about it.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 12:08, 3 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::I understand and respect some editors' desire for starting paragraphs with topic sentences, but I've seen it cause problems at other articles, where it led to accusations of OR. If my suggested first sentence is too complex, I'm confident better writers than I (which is almost everyone :) can fix that without using a declarative sentence that has other problems (for example, as in the fixes in your suggestion #2, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:J._K._Rowling&diff=prev&oldid=1222038721 which works]). You're not badgering about it; I hear you, but disagree that the way one writes an essay is always the best way to write an encyclopedia. If those are your only two issues with Draft 5, we are making progress !!! [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 14:12, 3 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Also, with [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:J._K._Rowling&diff=prev&oldid=1222045035 the change suggested by 13tez], the first sentence no longer seems overly complex. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 15:04, 3 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::::Could you be more specific about what these "other problems" are? Rowling's views ''are'', very clearly and obviously, gender-critical. I'm concerned that it could come across as POV if we're evasive or obfuscatory about this.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 15:10, 3 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::Why label her in WikiVoice when the succeeding paragraphs make it possible for the reader decide ? Always write in a way that let's the reader decide ... [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 15:13, 3 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::PS, in fact, that's quite why I like your rewrite in Draft 4 -- it sticks to saying what she said to let the reader decide. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 15:25, 3 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::Because we're an encyclopaedia, so we have to write concise summary of our topic. I thought we'd agreed on "Rowling's views are gender-critical".—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 16:00, 3 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::: Yes, per discussed [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:J._K._Rowling&oldid=1222056037#Discussion_of_fourth_draft here], where I continue my concern about the missing context (changes to and proposed laws). Her comments have consistently opposed changes to laws. I [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:J._K._Rowling&diff=prev&oldid=1222056037 made this adjustment] to hew more closely to discussion above. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 16:36, 3 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::::I only tonight realized that the fourth draft had taken the prior sources about "labeling her as a TERF", and used them for the declarative that she is gender-critical; we can't do that (and this is a BLP). All sources say "some labeled her" as a TERF. The first sentence will need work. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 03:00, 5 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::I don't think {{tq|Always write in a way that let's the reader decide }} is true, and in fact I think that's specifically bad advice a lot of the time. We don't "let the reader decide" whether [[Lee Harvey Oswald]] killed JFK or not, we just say that he did. |
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::::::Similarly, we should not do a lot of hedging about whether Rowling is a gender-critical feminist if the sources say she is (and they do). [[User:LokiTheLiar|Loki]] ([[User talk:LokiTheLiar|talk]]) 16:31, 3 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::See [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:J._K._Rowling&oldid=1222056037#Discussion_of_fourth_draft related comments here from Victoriaearle] about how we are misapplying labels. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 16:37, 3 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::Well, the choices seem to be, accept Sandy's watering-down or go to RFC. I don't mind which. If we accept Sandy's watered-down version then we should simplify "Rowling has used the internet to express gender-critical views" to "Rowling has expressed gender-critical views".—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 16:41, 3 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::::As I said somewhere else on this page, it helps process-wise to focus on the good first, before moving on to the difficult. Are we yet at a place where, besides these few sticking points, we think we're headed in the right direction or where we want to be ? Spend some time finding where we agree before moving on to sorting disagreements. Overall, since Draft 4, I'm pleased with the direction, where we are doing more of letting her words speak for themselves, and less of he-said, she-said and lists of supporters and opposers, while also focusing better now on recent scholarly sources, with limited reliance on news sources or recentism. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 16:46, 3 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::::Also, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:J._K._Rowling&diff=prev&oldid=1222059247 trimmed] (internet is stated in global introduction to the entire section anyway). [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 16:49, 3 May 2024 (UTC) |
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====Minor tweaks==== |
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==Autobiographical aspects of Harry Potter== |
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We've got five (5) instances of "expressed". Can we simplify all of them please? Suggest: find/replace "expressed the view that" to "said", "expressed support for" to "supported", and then "expressed that" to "said".—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 09:56, 4 May 2024 (UTC) |
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Rowling is known for her reticance in discussing her personal life, as well as her disdain for spoilers of her books, which may be due to the somewhat autobiographical nature of Harry Potter. In addition to [[Ron Weasley]] and [[Hermoine Granger]] being inspired by her best friend and herself, Rowling said that Ernie and Stanley, the driver and conductor of the [[Knight Bus]], were named after her grandfathers. [Conversations with J.K. Rowling pg 12]. Rowling's mother came from a family of teachers, "was a huge reader," and was "quite bookish" which Rowling said was a big influence on her. (ibid pg 12) [[Dobby]] the house elf seems to come from her heroine, [[Jessica Mitford]]'s second autobiography, ''A Fine Old Conflict.'' [http://www.mitford.org/guard.html] Rowling says that the [[Dementors]] are representative of [[Depression]], which she experienced while on the dole in Edinburgh [Chaundy, Bob. "Harry Potter's magician". BBC, 18 February 2003][http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/823330.stm]. The death of her mother to [[MS]] aided in her description of Harry's longing in the [[Mirror of Erised]] in which Rowling said she "would see exactly what Harry saw." ["Harry Potter Charms a Nation," Electronic Telegraph (July 25, 1998)]. When asked how she got the idea of writing about magic, Rowling said "When I was younger, I think my greatest fantasy would have been to find out that I had powers that I'd never dreamt of, that I was special." [From radio interview with Margo Adler, All Things Considered, NPR (October 2000)]. Rowling shares a birthday with her protaganist, Harry, of 31 July, and says if people had asked her more about her [Christian] faith they could probably guess where the series was going. |
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:{{u|S Marshall}} I [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AJ._K._Rowling&diff=1222197896&oldid=1222195546 changed some others also]. Does changing the first ''expressed'' to ''espoused'' (adopt or support as a cause, belief, or way of life) help address your concern that the first sentence is "watered down"? [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 14:35, 4 May 2024 (UTC) |
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J.K. Rowling says she is "left wing" and that there is a certain amount of "political stuff" in ''Harry Potter'', but that "every reader will bring his own agenda to the book."<ref>{{cite web|title='Fire' Storm|author=Jeff Jensen|work=ew.com|url=http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,85523,00.html|year=2000|accessdate=2007-07-07}}</ref> |
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:: I still aver that we should open with "Rowling is a gender-critical feminist". My position is that she's so undeniably gender-critical and so undeniably feminist that it's wrong to omit those words. If we absolutely ''must'' shy away from that, then okay, we should go to "Rowling has gender-critical views." With the full stop immediately after "views" and no tacked-on hedges or qualifications.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 17:31, 4 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::We still disagree on the first part (I hoped that ''espoused'' would help move us closer towards each other's position), but on the second part, where then would you work in the bit about which laws she opposed? [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 18:32, 4 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::::For the overview paragraph that comes first, I would write: ''Rowling has gender-critical views. She has often shared thoughts on trans people, mostly in the context of proposed legal changes in Scotland that would make it easier to transition.'' I'd push back the detail about which laws, specifically, to the history paragraph.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 22:58, 4 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::By the time I did all that, it was at 485 words (getting too long), so [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:J._K._Rowling&diff=prev&oldid=1222272711 did this]. Cuts the first sentence to a simple declarative, but had to make some cuts elsewhere (no meaning lost I hope). [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 23:51, 4 May 2024 (UTC) |
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===== Further queries ===== |
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Several articles have noted the leftist influences of Rowling's heroine, one-time Communist [[Jessica Mitford]], on the ''Harry Potter'' series, with the themes of cooperation among the magical races<ref>[http://www.lacitybeat.com/article.php?id=5890&IssueNum=216 Natalie Nichols, LA City Beat 26 July 2007.</ref>, racism, and the slavery of [[House elves]].<ref>[www.metrosantacruz.com/metro-santa-cruz/05.23.07/harry-potter-0721.html] John Rose, Metro Santa Cruz 23 May, 2007 </ref> |
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{{u|S Marshall}} what are we citing from page 17 of Whited here ?? |
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* She opposes gender self-recognition,[55] ... |
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that page is the footnotes. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 15:03, 4 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:Take the Whited citation out, I suggest. Is it strictly necessary to cite that she opposes gender self-recognition?—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 17:31, 4 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::{{u|S Marshall}} yes, I think so, because what she actually opposes is gender self-recognition as it applies to "legal" gender status without additional processes ... again, we have to get the context ... it's not individuals living how they want to live that she has opposed, rather the laws involved. That's why I was hoping to see exact wording from Whited ... [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 18:24, 4 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::She literally puts hashtag #notoselfID on her tweets.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 18:51, 4 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::::We still need to source that statement. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 18:56, 4 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::Okay. According to [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-63162533 this BBC article], the Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill would make anyone over the age of 16 who'd lived in their acquired gender for three months eligible to apply for a gender recognition certificate. This would remove the requirement for doctor's reports. At paragraphs 9 and 10, the BBC say: |
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:::::{{tq2|It remains a hotly contested issue, however, with critics saying "self identification" would undermine the safety of women-only spaces. JK Rowling has previously argued the new law would harm the most vulnerable women.{{pb}}Ms Rowling tweeted: "I stand in solidarity with @ForWomenScot and all women protesting and speaking outside the Scottish Parliament. #NoToSelfID."}} |
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:::::It's my position that this reduces to "Rowling opposes gender self-recognition", although if you want to go to "self-identification" instead (as closer to the source), then I would accept that. |
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:::::As a cross-check that this is a fair characterization of what Rowling really does say, I refer you to her blog post [https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/ here], which says at paragraph 26: |
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:::::{{tq2|The current explosion of trans activism is urging a removal of almost all the robust systems through which candidates for sex reassignment were once required to pass. A man who intends to have no surgery and take no hormones may now secure himself a Gender Recognition Certificate and be a woman in the sight of the law.}} |
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:Would something like this be okay for inclusion, or a spinoff article? Theres more, and I can look up the sources if you guys are agreeable to the subject. [[User:Libertycookies|Libertycookies]] 14:42, 12 July 2007 (UTC) |
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:::::I'd very much prefer it if this could be said without obfuscation or waffle, please.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 23:26, 4 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:: That is good and interesting material if you can find good sources to support it. [[User:Jossi|≈ jossi ≈]] <small>[[User_talk:Jossi|(talk)]]</small> 16:05, 12 July 2007 (UTC) |
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::::::I, as usual, second the desire to avoid waffling and obfuscation. The issues with this section as it stands are primarily an excess of [[WP:FALSEBALANCE]] and overly-complicated wordings that obscure simple facts. [[User:LokiTheLiar|Loki]] ([[User talk:LokiTheLiar|talk]]) 23:37, 4 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::On saying it simply, is that covered (now) with "proposed legal changes in Scotland that would make it easier to transition"? [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 00:06, 5 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::No, it still doesn't say she opposes gender self-recognition anywhere that I can see.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 01:02, 5 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::::Whited page 7 may work -- there are three moving pieces now, including the UK/Scottish law/legal stuff to fix, including the first declarative sentence, which was still pushing what the sources say -- see [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:J._K._Rowling&oldid=1222287886#Discussion_of_fourth_draft Victoriaearle at "Discussion of fourth draft"]). We should keep in mind that this is a BLP and hew closely to sources, and avoid stating something as fact in WikiVoice. I'll work further on the Scotland legal bit and self-identification part tomorrow. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 02:43, 5 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::::I very much agree that {{tq|not wanting to say something as fact in WikiVoice}} is the main remaining hurdle we have here.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 16:03, 5 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::{{u|S Marshall}}, now that Victoria has also weighed in, I'll move forward with Draft 6. Since all the earlier drafts were yours and Victoria's, I wanted to wait 'til I had heard from both of you before putting up the next, but we're at a point where we need a reboot on the talk page to see what's left! [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 16:29, 5 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::PS, it's gotten hard to find what's left to do on this talk page :) [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 16:29, 5 May 2024 (UTC) |
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Is this too-closely paraphrased from Duggan 161 ? |
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:::Are the attributions okay? Can we post? [[User:70.137.148.86|70.137.148.86]] 00:14, 26 July 2007 (UTC) |
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* and has implied that some transgender women are a threat to women and trans-positive messages can be a threat to children.[56] |
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[[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 15:20, 4 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:The original reads: "[Rowling] not only suggests that trans individuals are a threat to women and that trans-positive discourses are dangerous to children". I weakened that to "some" transgender women and "can be" a threat to children, which is more consistent with what Rowling says. I'm certainly content for that to be rephrased in fewer words.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 17:31, 4 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:: Not my strength, so I hope someone will give it a go ... it's a bit too close for comfort. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 18:25, 4 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::"Some" here feels too weak, especially when combined with "implied": evident in her actual words is a strong and repeated emphasis on the threat of trans women with some hedging sometimes. If we want to keep the word count down I'd just drop "some" and "can be". Otherwise I'd go with {{tq|and has suggested that children and cis women are threatened by trans women and trans-positive messages}}. [[User:LokiTheLiar|Loki]] ([[User talk:LokiTheLiar|talk]]) 23:34, 4 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Did [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:J._K._Rowling&diff=prev&oldid=1222274292 that], [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 01:52, 5 May 2024 (UTC) |
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==== Citations to fix ==== |
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==[[Philanthropist]]== |
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:I looked at the Vanity Fair article being used as a reference for "Rowling rejects these characterisations and denies being transphobic." It's from 2023 and quotes her from a podcast she did rather than the article used as the other reference for this statement. I think the two following articles which touch on her same comments (in the podcast) might be better references than the Vanity Fair article: |
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Nice word Jossi! I added her to the wiki list with Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, and Mother Teresa. What odd bedfellows. [[User:Libertycookies|Libertycookies]] 21:47, 12 July 2007 (UTC) |
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:* https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/jk-rowling-podcast-trans-harry-potter-comments-hogwarts-b2283266.html |
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: Don't know what you mean by that, but a living person that gives 22 million pounds of her money to [[comic relief]] and raised that much on special books dedicated to charitable work, is a philanthropist. [[User:Jossi|≈ jossi ≈]] <small>[[User_talk:Jossi|(talk)]]</small> 22:12, 12 July 2007 (UTC) |
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:* https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-64729304 |
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::I meant it in serious praise and wished I would have thought of the word myself. [[User:Libertycookies|Libertycookies]] 07:07, 13 July 2007 (UTC) |
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:[[User:13tez|13tez]] ([[User talk:13tez|talk]]) 00:14, 4 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::Agree; [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:J._K._Rowling&diff=prev&oldid=1222138328 swapped in BBC] as it is not paywalled and links endure. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 03:41, 4 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:The reference currently used to support "Criticism has come from ... Human Rights Campaign." currently has nothing to do with the HRC criticising Rowling. It's talking about Dave Chappelle saying he's "team TERF" and then says "TERF views 'deny the validity of transgender people and transgender identities,' said Sarah McBride, national press secretary for the Human Rights Campaign." We can substantiate the HRC criticising Rowling with [https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/19/world/europe/jk-rowling-maya-forstater-transgender.html this article] instead. |
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:Similarly, ''Wizarding World'' isn't even mentioned in the reference used to substantiate "LGBT charity the Wizarding World spoke out against her stance." |
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:You'll probably prefer to use [https://apnews.com/article/entertainment-jk-rowling-us-news-media-7338b2b262090c00f04deafe2e6689c2 this article] to substantiate GLAAD's comments rather than the current reference from USA Today. [[User:13tez|13tez]] ([[User talk:13tez|talk]]) 00:31, 4 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::Thanks for checking those, 13tez; it had not occurred to me that our citations could have gotten corrupted in the journey. I will track back on these, if not today, then first thing tomorrow. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 02:26, 4 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::Human Rights Campaign: I used [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:J._K._Rowling&diff=prev&oldid=1222133751 Milne, Reuters] instead, as it is freely available and NYT is paywalled. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 02:44, 4 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:: On [[Wizarding World]], that got mangled in Draft 4 (it is ''not'' an LGBT charity); I've [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:J._K._Rowling&diff=prev&oldid=1222136859 restored to what is in the article now], which is correct. My apologies for not seeing the error when I copied text from Draft 4 to Draft 5. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 03:18, 4 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:: On GLAAD, USA Today is as reliable as AP -- why do the work to switch citations, since USA Today does verify the content? [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 03:22, 4 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::''USA Today is as reliable as AP -- why do the work to switch citations, since USA Today does verify the content?'' |
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:::I've seen a widespread aversion to using references from news sources that aren't from the most reputable outlets (NYT, Reuters, AP news, The Guardian, etc) in [[Talk:J. K. Rowling/Archive 16#Recent changes to transgender people section|past discussions]] and what you said above ("my first preference for sourcing is usually AP or Reuters"). I just thought you might prefer to use the AP article. [[User:13tez|13tez]] ([[User talk:13tez|talk]]) 12:50, 4 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::::OK, then ... will switch it in when next on real computer. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 15:21, 4 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::Don't feel obliged! I just thought it'd be your preference and the preference of others generally. [[User:13tez|13tez]] ([[User talk:13tez|talk]]) 17:25, 4 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::::[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:J._K._Rowling&diff=prev&oldid=1222220552 Done], [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 17:26, 4 May 2024 (UTC) |
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== |
==== 13tez feedback ==== |
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:We should probably change "[[Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Act 2021|Scotland's Hate Crime Law]] enacted in 2024" to "Scotland's [[Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Act 2021|Hate Crime and Public Order Act]]". There are [https://www.gov.scot/publications/independent-review-hate-crime-legislation-scotland-final-report/pages/14/ multiple acts] that make up Scotland's hate crime legislation, so we should be specific. We could retain the fact that it came into force in 2024, but the article on the act already covers that, and we're trying to summarise here. |
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Hey Jossi, maybe we should put a moratorium on change for a few days? [[User:Libertycookies|Libertycookies]] 22:00, 12 July 2007 (UTC) |
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:Should the section's content be in roughly chronological order or have more context as to when she said/did what? For example, her "April fool's thread" was this year and is at the start of the section, but she said "Trans people need and deserve protection" in 2020, and it is at the end of the section. Presently, you could easily be left with the impression that she said the former first and the latter later, even though the opposite is true and her comments have escalated over time. Could it make it easier for the reader to chart the change in her views and speech over time by having the contents of the section ordered chronologically rather than thematically? |
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: What we need is to be ready for the onslaught when the 7th book is made available... Vandalism galore is guaranteed... [[User:Jossi|≈ jossi ≈]] <small>[[User_talk:Jossi|(talk)]]</small> 22:13, 12 July 2007 (UTC) |
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:Should we rephrase 'She has tweeted a list of trans women, writing that they are "men, every last one of them".'? My thinking is that the specific quote isn't the biggest issue of her comments in this incident. Imho the bigger issue (when compared to her misgendering them) is that she listed famous trans women alongside sexual offenders who are also trans women in what has been called "an apparent attempt to draw a connection between trans people and sexual perversion".<ref>{{cite web |last1=Lavietes |first1=Matt |title=J.K. Rowling will not be arrested for comments about transgender women, police say |url=https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/jk-rowling-will-not-arrested-comments-transgender-women-police-say-rcna146065 |website=[[NBC News]] |access-date=14 April 2024 |archive-url=https://archive.today/20240403041410/https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/jk-rowling-will-not-arrested-comments-transgender-women-police-say-rcna146065 |archive-date=2024-04-03 |language=en |date=2 April 2024 |url-status=live}}</ref> Furthermore, it would enable the use of more of the possible references I listed earlier, which cover the incident without the specific quote, and which you've said before are your preferences for sourcing from news articles. Would it make sense to re-write it without the specific quote, but to summarise what she did to capture its spirit (listing famous trans women alongside trans women who are sexual offenders, mock them, and misgender them)? Should we also mention this was a response to the new act and speculation (albeit unfounded) that misgendering could become a criminal offence? |
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::Then this page should be semi-protected, like [[Harry Potter]]. [[User:Serendipodous|Serendipodous]] 06:19, 13 July 2007 (UTC) |
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:Should we seek a higher-quality independent/secondary sources for the first sentence in the last paragraph ("Rowling rejects these characterisations...")? We're currently citing Vanity Fair and her own statement, which is obviously biased on if she's transphobic, and since we're not using it to reference direct quotes it would probably be better to use somebody else's analysis/summarisation of what she's said (in a reliable source) than to do so ourselves. Similarly, we could use [https://apnews.com/article/6d99e691c88a5631cc8c2aa2b39ff3c1 this article] to reference the fact that her essay was published on 10 June 2020 rather than the essay itself. [[User:13tez|13tez]] ([[User talk:13tez|talk]]) 14:56, 3 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Semi-protected sounds good. I saw some yahoo trying to vandalize with a spoiler already. At least I'm trying to contribute positively, although sometimes slanted. [[User:Libertycookies|Libertycookies]] 07:10, 13 July 2007 (UTC) |
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{{reflist-talk}} |
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::::I've always been surprised that this page isn't semi-protected anyway. <b>[[User:AulaTPN|<font color="#89f">A</font><font color="#78e">u</font><font color="#67d">l</font><font color="#56c">a</font>]][[User talk:AulaTPN|<sup><font color="#45b">T</font><font color="#34a">P</font><font color="#239">N</font></sup>]]</b> 08:28, 13 July 2007 (UTC) |
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::Did the [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:J._K._Rowling&diff=prev&oldid=1222045035 first]. On the second, I tried to get chrono order in Draft 5, but couldn't make it work. On the third, suggest that be better explored in the sub-article ?? We're covering it broadly to avoid going too much into recentism/news sources, although it's too new for mention in a scholarly source. Will work on the fourth; we can do it without using news sources, since Whited 2024 covers her "manifesto", but since this is her bio, her own words should also be cited/linked as primary, backed by the secondary. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 15:12, 3 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::::: Sprotected for 1 month. [[User:Jossi|≈ jossi ≈]] <small>[[User_talk:Jossi|(talk)]]</small> 00:10, 14 July 2007 (UTC) |
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::{{u|13tez}} if you could just add URLs on talk, that would help avoid the constant need to add reflist-talk to this page to avoid mucking up subsequent sections. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 15:16, 3 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AJ._K._Rowling&diff=1222050170&oldid=1222048036 Worked in secondary sources], added back some Henderson for more secondary analysis, but left the news sources for accessibility, since Whited is paywalled. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 15:44, 3 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:Is "a background of proposed changes to UK gender recognition laws" definitely accurate? My own understanding had been that the issue was largely based on proposed changes to the law in Scotland. I remember reading that [https://archive.ph/yAOS2 Rowling donated to a legal case] seeking to overturn the inclusion of trans women in the broader category of women in a (pretty beige) Scottish law (Gender Representation on Public Boards (Scotland) Act 2018) after it was [https://archive.ph/pawRg granted judicial review]. I did have the impression that proposed legal changes were chiefly in Scotland since the [https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9079/ UK government decided not to change the GRA] in September 2020 and there has [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-67773606 been a back-and-forth] between the UK and Scottish governments over whether Scotland can pass acts of this kind (see [[Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill]]). Maybe this is an issue of timing if this was written before the September 2020 decision and while Rowling was voicing opposition to reforms? Certainly since the decision, however, Scotland is the only place gender recognition laws have had proposed or actualised changes. It might be worth mentioning Scotland has its own devolved Parliament which can pass bills on [[Devolved, reserved and excepted matters|devolved matters]], similar to states in the USA. |
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:Regarding what's said in the references used, the Reuters reference says "Rowling is unhappy that Scotland plans to relax the law". The Guardian says "she felt compelled to write about after reading of the Scottish government’s latest progress towards changing gender recognition laws." Pedersen says "a new women's cooperative constellation has been established in Scotland around the issue of the Scottish Government's proposed reforms of the Gender Recognition Act." Suissa says "in 2017, Rowling shared an article critiquing a proposed change to the United Kingdom’s Gender Recognition Act (2004), which was interpreted by some commentators as a change that would allow trans women to access women’s spaces, such as bathrooms". Duggan says "These debates about sex and gender are not abstract. In the UK, they have been triggered partly by proposed legislative change, in the form of changes to the 2004 Gender Recognition Act which would allow individuals to change their legal sex on the basis of self-ID, without meeting any diagnostic or other criteria." |
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:From what I can tell, Rowling was, circa 2017-2020, voicing opposition to proposed changes to the (UK-wide) [[Gender Recognition Act 2004]] and that, since the UK government decided not to pursue such changes, she has been voicing opposition to proposed and actualised changes to the law (or even entirely new laws?) from the [[Scottish Parliament]] which are inclusive of trans women as women. Do you agree with this assessment, and do you think we should re-write the way this is described? I don't think it's accurate to say her opposition is to proposed changes to UK gender recognition laws since, as far as I can tell, it has mostly been to proposed and passed changes to gender recognition laws in Scotland. [[User:13tez|13tez]] ([[User talk:13tez|talk]]) 16:14, 3 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::No, I think it's accurate and reflected in the sources used; first it was UK Gender Recognition, then on to Scotland Hate Crime. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 16:31, 3 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Rowling has certainly voiced opposition to the Hate Crime and Public Order Act, which [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-68746512 some incorrectly thought] made misgendering trans people a criminal offence, but changes re gender law in Scotland also includes acts like the Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill, which sought to make it easier for trans people to change their legal gender, and the Gender Representation on Public Boards (Scotland) Act 2018, which includes some trans women (those with [https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/7 gender recognition certificates]) in [https://www.legislation.gov.uk/asp/2018/4/section/2/enacted its definition of "woman"]. We probably need to find some references as to which specific laws, bills, and proposed changes she's spoken out against. Maybe relating to how she called Sturgeon an eraser of women's rights, IIRC. [[User:13tez|13tez]] ([[User talk:13tez|talk]]) 16:50, 3 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::::I think the sources we have now cover it. We are already at 470 words ... an addition of 40 words. Can this detail be explored at [[Political views of J. K. Rowling]]? [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 16:56, 3 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-63170808 Here's what I was thinking of] - Rowling called Sturgeon "destroyer of women's rights" over the [[Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill]] (which the Scottish Parliament passed but the UK gov later blocked). In that sense, she's voiced opposition to that bill, donated to a legal case trying to overturn trans inclusion in the Public Boards (Scotland) Act 2018, and tried to directly challenge the Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Act. This is far more opposition than she's ever made to proposed or actualised UK-wide laws: she only opposed possible reforms to the GRA while the consultation was ongoing, and the UK government is pretty much in agreement with her now. |
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:::::Re too many words, I'm not suggesting we explore each of these instances here. I'm suggesting we change "a background of proposed changes to UK gender recognition laws" to "a background of proposed changes to Scottish and UK gender recognition laws" since there are many more instances of her being opposed to a proposed change to Scottish law (and I'm sure I could go and dig out even more) than UK law. [[User:13tez|13tez]] ([[User talk:13tez|talk]]) 17:04, 3 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::Thank you for this: {{tq|I'm suggesting we change "a background of proposed changes to UK gender recognition laws" to "a background of proposed changes to Scottish and UK gender recognition laws"}} It helps to keep proposals brief and readable :) I will work that in as soon as I get a moment ... things suddenly got complicated around my household! But, since the [[United Kingdom]] includes Scotland, why would that not be redundant ? Would you rather we just add to the footnote to include a citation related specifically to Scotland? [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 17:08, 3 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::Scotland has [[Scottish Parliament|its own devolved Parliament]] (separate from the [[UK Parliament]]) which can pass bills on [[devolved matters]] in a manner similar to states in the USA. In this sense, saying [[Scottish law]] separately is like saying the law of a state in the USA separately from the USA's federal law (sort of). Most of her opposition has been to acts and bills in Scotland, since she basically agrees with the current UK government on trans issues. [[User:13tez|13tez]] ([[User talk:13tez|talk]]) 17:16, 3 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::I'm going to be out the rest of the afternoon. I think we have the UK issue broadly covered in the UK footnote, and regardless if they ended up agreeing, her tweets were intially related to those UK proposed laws. {{pb}} Could you give me one high quality source that I could use to work in Scotland on gender recognition when I'm home later today? [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 17:37, 3 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::::I'm not suggesting we cover her opposition to Scottish laws (separately or in detail), only to say that her opposition has been to "Scottish and UK gender recognition laws" rather than to "UK gender recognition laws" because most of her opposition has been to proposed changes to Scottish gender recognition laws rather than UK gender recognition laws. |
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:::::::::To make it more concrete, the three acts/bills which I mentioned Rowling opposing earlier are [[acts of the Scottish Parliament]]. This means they only apply in Scotland, and not the rest of the [[United Kingdom]] (England, Wales, and Northern Ireland). This is the sense in which they are Scottish gender recognition laws rather than UK gender recognition laws. Most of her opposition has been to changes in gender recognition laws proposed or passed by the Scottish Parliament. Therefore, most of her opposition has been to proposed (or implemented) changes in Scottish gender recognition laws. Her only opposition to changes in UK gender recognition laws (I can find) is when she only opposed the UK-wide proposal (dropped in 2020) of reforming the [[Gender Recognition Act 2004]]. She also opposed changes to Scottish gender recognition laws at that time. Since then, she has only opposed proposed changes to Scottish gender recognition laws because, as far as I can find, there haven't been any more proposed changes to UK gender recognition laws. |
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:::::::::"her tweets were intially related to those UK proposed laws" |
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:::::::::Her initial statements were not only related to proposed changes to UK gender recognition laws. In [https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/ her June 2020 essay], she says "On Saturday morning, I read that the Scottish government is proceeding with its controversial gender recognition plans, which will in effect mean that all a man needs to ‘become a woman’ is to say he’s one." She is referring to the [[Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill]]. It's also mentioned in the references currently in use. The Reuters reference says "Rowling is unhappy that Scotland plans to relax the law so that trans people can change their birth certificates without having to provide a medical diagnosis." The Guardian says "she felt compelled to write about after reading of the Scottish government’s latest progress towards changing gender recognition laws." Pedersen says "a new women's cooperative constellation has been established in Scotland around the issue of the Scottish Government's proposed reforms of the Gender Recognition Act." |
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:::::::::"Could you give me one high quality source that I could use to work in Scotland on gender recognition when I'm home later today?" |
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:::::::::Please could you tell me what qualifies as a high-quality source? I've seen the term used in talk pages a lot, but I've never seen anything in [[WP:P&G]] that actually defines source quality. |
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:::::::::You might find these sources helpful: |
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:::::::::* https://doi.org/10.1136/bmj.o3057 |
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:::::::::* https://doi.org/10.1136/bmj.o2608 |
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:::::::::* https://doi.org/10.1080/10894160.2023.2229216 |
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:::::::::[[User:13tez|13tez]] ([[User talk:13tez|talk]]) 18:42, 3 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::::{{u|13tez}} I'm truly at a loss for what you want added and why so much discussion about it. The footnote already mentions the Scottish Gender Recognition Reform Bill that you want added (which as you note is discussed in the Reuters source already given), and since Scotland is part of the UK, I don't know how I can add the words "and Scotland" to that text without it being obviously redundant. Perhaps someone else is better able to understand what you're asking for, as I'm not seeing it. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 22:48, 3 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::''I'm truly at a loss for what you want added'' |
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:::::::::::Thanks for trying to work through it regardless. I'm suggesting we say that her opposition has been to "Scottish and UK gender recognition laws" rather than to "UK gender recognition laws" because most of her opposition has been to proposed changes to Scottish gender recognition laws rather than UK gender recognition laws. |
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:::::::::::''Scotland is part of the UK, I don't know how I can add the words "and Scotland" to that text without it being obviously redundant.'' |
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:::::::::::As discussed, the majority of her opposition to proposed or implemented changes to gender recognition laws has been within [[Scottish law]] passed by the [[Scottish Parliament]], not [[Law of the United Kingdom|UK-wide law]] passed by the [[UK Parliament]]. Even though Scotland is part of the UK, its devolution allows it to pass its own laws that don't apply to other parts of the UK. It's like how bills passed by the [[California State Legislature]] don't apply in any other state, so they're "Californian law" and not "American law", even though California is part of the USA. In the same way, Scots law only applies to Scotland, so it is not UK law. For example, The Alcohol etc. (Scotland) Act 2010 makes it illegal to buy alcohol in supermarkets in Scotland after 10PM, but being part of Scots law, this doesn't apply in any other part of the UK. It wouldn't make sense to call this "UK law" when it only applies in Scotland. I discussed it more above ("To make it more concrete..."). I appreciate this might be hard to understand because Scotland is part of the UK if you're not from the UK yourself, but it's a matter of correctness. |
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:::::::::::Thanks! [[User:13tez|13tez]] ([[User talk:13tez|talk]]) 23:09, 3 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::::::It's hard for me to understand too, and I'm as British as roast beef. I don't see any equivalency with US state law vs US federal law. In the US state law is subordinate to federal law. The UK operates parallel legal systems: the Law of England and Wales, Scots law, and Northern Ireland which is its own thing again. None are subordinate. When you cross the Scottish border you enter a different legal world.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 19:00, 4 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::::I really don't want to get bogged down in a political science discussion (perhaps we should move to a talk page?), but: |
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:::::::::::::''None are subordinate.'' |
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:::::::::::::This is not true. There are [[Devolved, reserved and excepted matters#Reserved|reserved matters]]: areas in which only the UK Parliament can legislate and the devolved legislatures cannot. |
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:::::::::::::''When you cross the Scottish border you enter a different legal world.'' |
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:::::::::::::Again, this isn't really true. Although Acts of the Scottish Parliament now apply to you, UK-wide legislation created by the UK Parliament still does as well. This is why Scotland has seats in the House of Commons. [[User:13tez|13tez]] ([[User talk:13tez|talk]]) 19:46, 4 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:''On the second, I tried to get chrono order in Draft 5, but couldn't make it work.'' |
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==Title== |
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:Yeah that's reasonable. Do you think it might be helpful to say when she said/did all this stuff, since it will be ordered thematically? |
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:''On the third, suggest that be better explored in the sub-article ?? We're covering it broadly to avoid going too much into recentism/news sources, although it's too new for mention in a scholarly source.'' |
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:I'm not suggesting we should give a summary of the type I proposed as well as the quote currently included. I'm suggesting we replace the current text with a summary of the sort I proposed, so long as it's roughly the same length as the current sentence. I think this would give readers a better picture of what she said than what's currently included for the reasons I mentioned before. |
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:''Will work on the fourth; we can do it without using news sources, since Whited 2024 covers her "manifesto", but since this is her bio, her own words should also be cited/linked as primary, backed by the secondary.'' |
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:I don't see why we shouldn't use news sources, but if you reference it from academia, that's fine. I think it's arbitrary. However, I think we should rely mostly on secondary sources because of [[WP:BLPPRIMARY]] and the following from [[WP:BLPSTYLE]]: "BLPs should be written responsibly, cautiously, and in a dispassionate tone, avoiding both understatement and overstatement. Articles should document in a non-partisan manner what reliable secondary sources have published about the subjects, and in some circumstances what the subjects have published about themselves." [[User:13tez|13tez]] ([[User talk:13tez|talk]]) 19:14, 3 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::Re {{tq|it might be helpful to say when she said/did all this stuff}}, yes, absolutely; I know a few people are reluctant to add any extra words, but I think we can afford to include "in 2017", "in 2023", etc so people understand the chronology. [[User:-sche|-sche]] ([[User talk:-sche|talk]]) 21:56, 3 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::{{u|-sche}}, I've just looked over the draft with an eye to adding dates, and I can't find a place where the dates aren't already included or implied. The first paragraph is an overview, and every other para seems to have dates where they are needed. Could you provide a concrete example where they are missing? It's good to avoid writing that reeks of [[WP:PROSELINE]], which I hope we've done. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 22:39, 3 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::::I understand the reasoning to not include dates in an overview section. I was personally thinking of: ''She has tweeted a list of trans women, writing that they are "men, every last one of them."'' Even though we will want brevity in an overview, it's worth weighing that up against the benefit of making it more obvious how her rhetoric has changed over time by including the dates of her comments. [[User:13tez|13tez]] ([[User talk:13tez|talk]]) 00:04, 4 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::Added [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:J._K._Rowling&diff=prev&oldid=1222138830 date on that one] (could you all start a new sub-section when you start a new issue-- following this discussion is getting very hard-- I think I got everything, but it's hard to tell). [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 03:46, 4 May 2024 (UTC) |
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*Scots Law is certainly included in the phrase "UK law". This article definitely shouldn't try to explain the distinction between Scots Law and the Law of England and Wales, and it shouldn't try to summarize the competence of the respective parliaments. To avoid getting bogged down in that I do prefer "UK law", particularly when no law anywhere in the UK has the effect of doing any of the things at issue!—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 23:30, 3 May 2024 (UTC) |
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*:I'm still at a loss; I added "Scottish and" to the draft, but I'm fairly certain that is open to criticism for redundancy. Should I now remove it again? This has seemed to be a full page of bogging down on something seems redundant, but maybe that's only me. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 23:46, 3 May 2024 (UTC) |
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*::I think we should move on and discuss something more productive until a consensus arises because I've explained my reasoning and it's not a point of utmost importance. [[User:13tez|13tez]] ([[User talk:13tez|talk]]) 23:54, 3 May 2024 (UTC) |
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*:Hey, thanks for your thoughts. |
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*:''This article definitely shouldn't try to explain the distinction between Scots Law and the Law of England and Wales, and it shouldn't try to summarize the competence of the respective parliaments.'' |
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*:I'm not trying to, but almost all of her opposition to proposed gender-related legislation has been within Scots law. I just think that should be reflected by saying "Scottish and UK law". |
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*:''no law anywhere in the UK has the effect of doing any of the things at issue'' |
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*:The Gender Representation on Public Boards (Scotland) Act 2018 includes trans women in its definition of women. Rowling has donated to a legal case brought by [[For Women Scotland]] seeking to overturn this. As discussed, it's one of several bills in Scots law she's publicly opposed. |
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*:''Scots Law is certainly included in the phrase "UK law".'' |
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*:Scots law is one of the legal systems within the UK, but Scots law is different from the laws passed from the UK Parliament. It's honestly probably a semantical point and not worth discussing further: there are probably more productive things we could be talking about. At this point, I've explained my reasoning, so it's probably just best to let consensus decide and move on to something else. |
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*:Thanks! [[User:13tez|13tez]] ([[User talk:13tez|talk]]) 23:50, 3 May 2024 (UTC) |
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*::Ok, if you want to move on, but I want to register that I'm not able to follow your position on this and in fact think I'm misunderstanding you quite badly. You're surely aware that the Westminster parliament writes Scottish law, and that more Scottish law originates in Westminster than in Holyrood?—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 00:55, 4 May 2024 (UTC) |
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*:::Yes, I'm aware that many (not all) acts of the Parliament of the United Kingdom apply to the whole of the UK, including Scotland. I'd be interested to read an article discussing what proportion of Scots law is created in Westminster vs Holyrood, excluding common law. |
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*:::Political science aside, my reasoning to add Scottish law explicitly was that most of her opposition was to bills/acts of the Scottish Parliament which are exclusively part of Scots law, and a lot of her campaigning (for lack of a better word) has taken place within Scotland and to assist groups like For Women Scotland who are trying to change Scots law. This isn't relevant to the rest of the UK. This is ultimately because the [https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/jk-rowling-humza-yousaf-scotland-rishi-sunak-first-minister-b2521781.html Conservative UK government wouldn't] propose or enact any gender identity law she would oppose, but the SNP Scottish government did several times. See exhibits [https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-63170808 A], [https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/02/18/jk-rowlings-70k-to-challenge-ruling-men-can-become-women/ B], and [https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c51j64lk2l8o C]. |
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*:::To me, the test is what you'd say if it was California (or another US state) and the USA instead of Scotland and the UK. Imagine she'd publicly opposed proposed and enacted Californian state law several times and opposed proposed changes to US federal law once. Would you say "Rowling has expressed gender-critical views against a background of proposed changes to Californian and US gender recognition laws" or just "US gender recognition laws"? If you're of the former opinion, we should say "Scottish and UK laws" and, in the latter case, just "UK laws". [[User:13tez|13tez]] ([[User talk:13tez|talk]]) 01:33, 4 May 2024 (UTC) |
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*:::I agree with S Marshall re not following this at all, and it's taking a huge portion of this talk page. Please try to remember that Wikipedia's audience is global (not only beyond UK in the English-speaking world, but beyond the English-spearking world as well). For the huge majority of our readers (who may not understand what is going on in the UK with this whole matter anyway), complicating it with a further parliamentary issue isn't adding anything helpful. The UK includes Scotland, and the relevant laws are in the footnote for those readers who want to know what proposals were made and what laws were involved. We're risking now the talk page being so long that the earlier drafts -- which may contain bits we may want to revisit -- will soon have to be archived. I hope I have incorporated everything now (we're still stalled on the opening sentence), but it's become hard to follow the talk page as there aren't separate sub-heads for separate topics. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 03:52, 4 May 2024 (UTC) |
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*::::I agree with 13tez here, actually. It's not accurate to say that she objects to UK law if what she actually objects to is laws passed by the Scottish Parliament. [[User:LokiTheLiar|Loki]] ([[User talk:LokiTheLiar|talk]]) 11:27, 4 May 2024 (UTC) |
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*:::::The current (Draft 5) mentions both (Scottish and UK). [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 15:23, 4 May 2024 (UTC) |
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*::::::Should we add the ''Gender Representation on Public Boards (Scotland) Act 2018'' to the list of laws she's opposed? I say this because [https://archive.ph/yAOS2 she's donated] to a legal case trying to challenge its inclusion of trans women in its definition of "woman". If we are providing a list, it should probably be complete, unless we say "laws such as" or something similar to indicate it's an incomplete list. [[User:13tez|13tez]] ([[User talk:13tez|talk]]) 17:33, 4 May 2024 (UTC) |
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*:::::::It doesn't strike me that specifically was part of the whole brouhaha; see footnote d, where everything there is cited to a scholarly source. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 19:50, 4 May 2024 (UTC) |
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*::::::::@[[User:SandyGeorgia|SandyGeorgia]], I'm (very) sorry that this is taking so much time, but we are now phrasing it differently: "legal changes in the UK/Scotland" now vs "Scottish/UK laws" previously. I think the former indicates geography and Scotland is in the UK, so its laws are in the UK (albeit only one part of it), so I think we can say "...mostly in the context of proposed legal changes in the UK that..." Even though all but one of these instances (as far as I can tell) was within exclusively Scottish law, she did also [https://edition.cnn.com/2019/12/20/uk/jk-rowling-transgender-explainer-intl-gbr/index.html oppose proposed UK-wide legal changes too], so it wasn't just legal changes in Scotland. I think (hope), then, that we can probably all agree on: "mostly in the context of proposed legal changes in the UK that would"? |
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*::::::::I was proposing adding the ''Gender Representation on Public Boards (Scotland) Act 2018'' to footnote d. You can read about her opposition to it in [[Political views of J. K. Rowling#Transgender issues|Political_views_of_J._K._Rowling#Transgender_issues]] ("In February 2024, Rowling donated £70,000 to a crowd-funding appeal..."). Is the footnote one of the places in the article where we're only using references from academia? [[User:13tez|13tez]] ([[User talk:13tez|talk]]) 00:41, 5 May 2024 (UTC) |
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*:::::::::Sorry to be repeating myself, but saying it once again. The scholarly/academic sources are provided to demonstrate issues that are covered in recent scholarly sources (due weight). We also sometimes, but rarely, use non-scholarly sources to provide accessible text when others are paywalled, more background, or out of necessity when a recent issue warrants it. I don't mind adding this content to the footnote; I would mind expanding the article body to include it, when it's not something mentioned in scholarly sources or that has received the amount of coverage other issues have (due weight). I'll add it in the footnote of Draft 6. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 16:26, 5 May 2024 (UTC) |
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*Can't we just link to [[Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill]], which is mentioned in at least one source. [[User:Victoriaearle|Victoria]] ([[User talk:Victoriaearle|tk]]) 19:18, 4 May 2024 (UTC) |
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Although Joanne is her real name, she is best known to millions as J.K. Rowling. Per [[WP:NAME]], the article should be under the latter name, so I'm going to move it. [[User:Exploding Boy|Exploding Boy]] 05:35, 16 July 2007 (UTC) |
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*:We do; it's in footnote d, and has been since the FAR version. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 19:47, 4 May 2024 (UTC) |
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====Feedback (Victoria)==== |
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== Pronunciation == |
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A few remarks: |
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*First sentence - will revisit after re-reading sources (hopefully sooner than later) |
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*Maybe a bit of prose tightening for this phrase "She has often shared opinions on transgender rights" >> possibly try something like "She is vocal about transgender rights ...." |
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*"She has suggested that children and cisgender women" >> if she still believes this (which seems to be the case) then maybe consider writing in the present tense >> "She suggests that children and cisgender women ..." This would probably involve tense changes throughout & might need discussion |
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*Sales of ''Harry Potter'' books during Covid >> not sure it's needed & could be cut to save words |
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*2nd para looks good |
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*3rd para looks good |
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*Tolando >> Tolonda (I had to double check!) |
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That's all for now. [[User:Victoriaearle|Victoria]] ([[User talk:Victoriaearle|tk]]) 15:22, 5 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:Thanks, Victoria; I was waiting for you before resuming, as the talk page has gone outta control. I will work your comments, and the stragglers left over from above, in to a new Draft 6, in a new level two heading, because we are now at a talk page length that will necessitate archiving of the five previous drafts. I feel more comfortable starting a new level 2 given that you seem broadly satisfied with the direction so far -- need a few hours to work in everything. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 15:27, 5 May 2024 (UTC) |
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Now, I'm no stickler for pronunciation, but when someone tells me what version of English pronunciation to use, I become offended. While Rowling's last name may be pronounced "rolling" in Britain, I certainly have never heard that pronunciation in my life. The closest American pronunciation to that is "rahling" but most of the time it is pronounced "rohwling" here. |
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::Sounds good. [[User:Victoriaearle|Victoria]] ([[User talk:Victoriaearle|tk]]) 15:46, 5 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Continued at [[#Reboot: Draft 6 (near final)]]. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 01:09, 6 May 2024 (UTC) |
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For comparison, I would never expect anyone in their right mind to suggest that everyone should pronounce Harry Potter's name "Hahree Pawtah." It's just ridiculous that anyone could possibly suggest that. So why here is there given a sole pronunciation for Rowling, without even indicating that it's only a British version of the pronunciation, or even just the way ''she'' pronounces it? |
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== "She has publicly expressed her opinions on transgender people and related civil rights since 2017." == |
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Perhaps we could say something like this as a compromise: |
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This sentence in the lead is very weasel word-y, isn't it? "expressed her opinions" is such a vague way of describing active attacks - it doesn't even make it clear if she's for or against trans people - and it goes on to carefully isolate criticism. <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em; class=texhtml">'''[[User:Adam Cuerden|Adam Cuerden]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Adam Cuerden|talk]])</sup><sub>Has about 8.9% of all [[WP:FP|FPs]].</sub></span> 13:43, 23 April 2024 (UTC) |
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<blockquote> |
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Rowling pronounces her [[surname]] "rolling" ({{IPAEng|rəʊ.lɪŋ}})<ref name=bio><span class="plainlinks"> [http://www.cliphoto.com/potter/rowling.htm "The Not Especially Fascinating Life So Far of J. K. Rowling"]. Accessed [[21 March]] [[2006]]. </span></ref> as is customary in [[British English]], but accepts the common [[American English|American]] pronunciation "rohwling" {{IPAEng|raʊ.lɪŋ}}.<ref name="American pronunciation">{{cite news |url=http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/06/20/entertainment/main559748.shtml |title=Final Hours To Harry Potter V |date=[[2003-06-10]] |publisher=[[CBS]]/[[Associated Press|AP]] |accessdate=2007-07-16}}</ref> |
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</blockquote> |
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:If you could please read the work progressing on the talk page, it would help towards not bloating an already lengthy talk page with dated commentary. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 14:10, 23 April 2024 (UTC) |
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I was surprised to have just found a source for the fact that she accepts the American pronunciation (albeit, I'm sure, reluctantly). Regardless, I do believe it is important that the alternative pronunciation is included. If there is no response here soon, I'll make the changes myself. Thanks to anyone who gives feedback. <sub>└</sub><sup>'''[[User:Jared|<font color="#0084C9">Jared</font>]]'''</sup><sub>┘</sub><sup>┌</sup><sub>''[[User Talk:Jared|<font color="#009E49">t</font>]]''</sub><sup>┐</sup>  01:26, 17 July 2007 (UTC) |
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::I don't see how noting a particular point about the lead - and noting a tag being added - is redundant to other sections not talking about the specific wording. <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em; class=texhtml">'''[[User:Adam Cuerden|Adam Cuerden]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Adam Cuerden|talk]])</sup><sub>Has about 8.9% of all [[WP:FP|FPs]].</sub></span> 18:52, 29 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:::@[[User:Adam Cuerden|Adam Cuerden]] I do not understand which of "She has publicly expressed her opinions on transgender people and related civil rights since 2017." are [[WP:WEASEL|weasel words]]; especially as the following sentences contain [partial] information on how other people have interpreted these publicly-expressed opinions, and events which have followed. [[User:Bazza_7|Bazza <span style="color:grey">7</span>]] ([[User_talk:Bazza_7|talk]]) 13:32, 3 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::::Nor do I, but since that phrase is nowhere in any of the proposed drafts, the section is just distracting from work being done. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 14:13, 3 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::It's vague to the point of meaningless on what her views are. It's functionally identical to "She said something", not making it at all clear what her views are. Weasel words are using vague language that substitutes for actually saying anything on a point. |
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:::::As the lead stands, the transphobia section consists of two sentences, where the entire content is: |
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:::::* "She publicly said some undefined opinions about transpeople since 2017" |
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:::::* Some people don't like what she said. |
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:::::I mean, there's some attempts to list what groups dislike her views (some worked into the weasel word "critics"), but it doesn't really say anything about what Rowling actually said, thinks, or did. <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em; class=texhtml">'''[[User:Adam Cuerden|Adam Cuerden]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Adam Cuerden|talk]])</sup><sub>Has about 8.9% of all [[WP:FP|FPs]].</sub></span> 21:14, 4 May 2024 (UTC) |
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== "Transgender people" section should be re-titled as "Transphobia" == |
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:While it is acceptable for pronunciations of common words to vary, a name should be pronounced the way the person whose name it is decrees. The American pronunciation of "rohwling" is actually a mistake. One of the names in my family is Brough, which we pronounce "bruff." Other families with this surname often pronounce it "broh". That might be a correct pronunciation for '''their''' name but not for '''our''' name. [[User:Karanacs|Karanacs]] 01:36, 17 July 2007 (UTC) |
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Why are we white-washing her transphobic views? Representing overt transphobia as simply her "views on transphobic people" is reductive. It makes her views sound way more benign than they really are, violating NPOV in the process. [[Special:Contributions/98.116.173.242|98.116.173.242]] ([[User talk:98.116.173.242|talk]]) 02:42, 26 April 2024 (UTC) |
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::I do recognize this, which is why I was a bit hesitant in posting this suggestion, but I came to the decision to propose this because of the fact that I found the source above, citing that Rowling does accept the American pronunciation in addition. Look, I'm not here to try to encourage the use of the American pronunciation, nor am I trying to prove either of them more appropriate than the other; I'm just looking for the encyclopedia to be as honest as possible. And when you come to think of it, there are more people pronouncing it the American way than the British way, just by virtue of geography! This alone certainly does not merit it a valid pronunciation, but due to the widespread use of the pronunciation and her apparent indifference at the use of it, I would suggest that my version be included in the article. If you have an alternate way of suggesting the same thing, I would appreciate your (or anyone else's) suggestions, as always! <sub>└</sub><sup>'''[[User:Jared|<font color="#0084C9">Jared</font>]]'''</sup><sub>┘</sub><sup>┌</sup><sub>''[[User Talk:Jared|<font color="#009E49">t</font>]]''</sub><sup>┐</sup>  01:45, 17 July 2007 (UTC) |
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: No, it shouldn't. Because it labels her, and leaves no room in a section like that for any supportive or neutral views of transgender people, and this is a [[WP:BLP]] which must maintain a [[WP:NPOV|neutral point of view]]. There is no ban on representing her transphobia in a section entitled Views on Transgender people, and well-sourced content on her transphobic views are welcome in that section. The heading is fine as it stands. [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 02:59, 26 April 2024 (UTC) |
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::Reinforcing this - [[WP:BLP]] has a very specific and strident set of guidelines about how we can refer to a person and, in order for us to just say "Rowling is a transphobe," we would need the vast preponderance of reliable sources, including, in her case, academic sources to say "Rowling is a transphobe." Otherwise we simply cannot. That's why you'll see the fiddly and fussy discussions over minutia above. There's a pretty widespread sentiment right now that the article, as it stands, is not neutral or accurate regarding how Rowling has expressed her political views surrounding the rights of trans people. And a lot of effort is going into trying to correct that within the bounds of what we can do on Wikipedia. For more, though, we must use other venues than Wikipedia. [[User:Simonm223|Simonm223]] ([[User talk:Simonm223|talk]]) 13:23, 26 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:No it shouldn't, for reasons already explained. {{pb}} But since Rowling's comments have been made in the context of changes to laws, a more apt section heading would be something like Transgender rights. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 14:17, 3 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:98.116.173.242: This is an idea riddled with bias and cannot be accepted. I agree with @[[User:Simonm223|Simonm223]], this page is very left-leaning and biased. I think it needs radical changes, personally. [[User:Scientelensia|Scientelensia]] ([[User talk:Scientelensia|talk]]) 14:21, 6 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::I think you should probably go back and re-read what I said. Because my concern is that it is not neutral in that it under-plays the extent to which Rowling is transphobic but that we should make sure that changes happen within the appropriate boundaries of [[WP:BLP]]. [[User:Simonm223|Simonm223]] ([[User talk:Simonm223|talk]]) 14:57, 6 May 2024 (UTC) |
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== Reboot: Draft 6 (near final) == |
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::As a continuation, [[Tony Blair]]'s last name is pronounced "Blaih" in British English, but "Blare" in American English. I'm sure he no problem with this, just as Rowling doesn't. It's just a simple alteration of a vowel sound that comes natural to different variations of language. In America, Rowling would never be pronounced "rolling" just as Blair would never be pronounced "Blaih." Sure, the home language's pronunciation is usually the best, but that sure isn't going to make me change the way I mouth my vowels! That is why the American version should be introduced as well. It's more [[WP:NPOV|NPOV]] that way. <sub>└</sub><sup>'''[[User:Jared|<font color="#0084C9">Jared</font>]]'''</sup><sub>┘</sub><sup>┌</sup><sub>''[[User Talk:Jared|<font color="#009E49">t</font>]]''</sub><sup>┐</sup>  01:55, 17 July 2007 (UTC) |
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::: First five drafts can be reviewed at [[#Proposed text for "Transgender people" section]]; previous discussions and source dumps in [[Talk:J. K. Rowling/Archive 16]]. |
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=== Draft 6 === |
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:::The article is about one person — J.K. Rowling — and mentions how ''she'' customarily pronounces ''her own name''. The fact that somebody else with the surname Rowling might use a different pronunciation is obvious and not relevant to the article. There is nothing particularly wrong with your alternative version but it amazes me that you could classify a routine pronunciation guide as "offensive" or NPOV. [[User:Xanthoxyl|Xanthoxyl]] 04:17, 17 July 2007 (UTC) |
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'''NOTE!!!!''' {{highlight|I have reversed the order (draft vs. historical) compared to earlier versions because it's easier to edit with the draft first.}} [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 16:53, 5 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::On second thought, if the bald statement "Her name is pronounced..." strikes you as slightly bossy then go ahead and make the change, seeing as your version is concise, provides more information and gives the source. [[User:Xanthoxyl|Xanthoxyl]] 05:56, 17 July 2007 (UTC) |
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{| class="wikitable" |
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! style="width: 30em;" | Draft 6: 459 words |
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! style="width: 30em;" | Historical: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=J._K._Rowling&oldid=1202117364#Transgender_people 429 words] |
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|- |
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|| {{Main|Political views of J. K. Rowling#Transgender rights}} |
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::::The fact that she "accepts" an alternative pronounciation is a minor fact about her and should by no means be in the lead, if in the bio at all. [[User:Hornplease|Hornplease]] 06:35, 17 July 2007 (UTC) |
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::::: Not only Americans pronounce her name "<s>g</s>Rowling"; plenty of British people do too, just as many Americans pronounce her name "rolling". "<s>g</s>Rowling" isn't an "American pronunciation", it's just wrong. This "compromise' is an insult to Americans; it's basically saying that they reserve the right to be ignorant.[[User:Serendipodous|Serendipodous]] 06:52, 17 July 2007 (UTC) |
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<!-- Overview --> |
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::::::To quote an episode of [[MuggleCast]] it's pronounced "Rowling like bowling" - end of story. It particularly winds me up when people insist on pronouncing it like "Howling" - ugh! <b>[[User:AulaTPN|<font color="#89f">A</font><font color="#78e">u</font><font color="#67d">l</font><font color="#56c">a</font>]][[User talk:AulaTPN|<sup><font color="#45b">T</font><font color="#34a">P</font><font color="#239">N</font></sup>]]</b> 08:00, 17 July 2007 (UTC) |
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Rowling espouses [[Feminist views on transgender topics#Gender-critical feminism and trans-exclusionary radical feminism|gender-critical]] views.{{sfn|Whited|2024|loc= p. 7. "But in June 2020, Rowling's manifesto led some people to label her as a trans-exclusionary radical feminist (TERF), a term first used in 2008 that has more recently evolved as 'gender critical'."}}{{sfn|Steinfeld|2020|loc= pp. 34–35. "Just ask JK Rowling and other women who have been labelled as Terfs"}}{{sfn|Schwirblat|Freberg|Freberg|2022|loc= pp. 367–368. "This sparked a heated discussion within the Twitter community, one side buttressing Rowling's statements, and the other espousing her as a trans-exclusionary radical feminist (TERF)"}} Since 2017,{{sfn|Duggan|2021|pp=160–161}} she has written frequently about [[Transgender rights movement|transgender rights]], mostly in the context of proposed changes to UK gender recognition laws that would make it easier to [[transgender|transition]] without a medical diagnosis.<ref name= Milne2020>{{cite web|first1= Amber |last1=Milne|first2 = Rachel| last2 =Savage | url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-lgbt-rowling-explainer-trfn-idUSKBN23I3AI | title=Explainer: J. K. Rowling and trans women in single-sex spaces: what's the furore? | publisher=[[Reuters]] | date=11 June 2020 | access-date=6 April 2021 }}</ref><ref name= Brooks2020>{{Cite news|last=Brooks|first=Libby|date=11 June 2020|title=Why is JK Rowling speaking out now on sex and gender debate? |url= http://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/jun/11/why-is-jk-rowling-speaking-out-now-on-sex-and-gender-debate|access-date=14 January 2022 |work= [[The Guardian]] }}</ref><ref name=Kottasova2019>{{cite news |title= J.K. Rowling's 'transphobia' tweet row spotlights a fight between equality campaigners and radical feminists |first1= Ivana |last1= Kottasová |first2= Scottie |last2= Andrew |publisher= [[CNN]] |date= 20 December 2019|url= https://edition.cnn.com/2019/12/20/uk/jk-rowling-transgender-explainer-intl-gbr/index.html |access-date= 5 May 2024}}</ref>{{efn| |
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::::::And by the way, where in that article does it say that she "accepts" this alternate pronunciation of her name? I went through that article line by line and didn't find any mention of it. [[User:Serendipodous|Serendipodous]] 11:18, 17 July 2007 (UTC) |
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The laws and proposed changes are the UK [[Gender Recognition Act 2004]] and the Scotland [[Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill|Gender Recognition Reform Bill]]; related also are the UK [[Equality Act 2010]]{{sfn|Pedersen|2022|loc=Abstract}}{{sfn|Suissa|Sullivan|2021|pp=66–69}}{{sfn|Duggan|2021|loc=PDF pp. 14–15 (160–161)}} and the Scotland Gender Representation on Public Boards Act of 2018.<ref>{{cite news |last1=Watson |first1=Jeremy |title=JK Rowling donates £70k for legal challenge on defining a woman |date=18 February 2024 |url=https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/jk-rowling-donates-70k-for-legal-challenge-on-defining-a-woman-73tkvwq0b |work=[[The Times]] |access-date=5 May 2024|archive-url=https://archive.today/20240217200104/https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/jk-rowling-donates-70k-for-legal-challenge-on-defining-a-woman-73tkvwq0b |archive-date=17 February 2024 |url-status=live |url-access=subscription}}</ref> |
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I'll try to respond to everyone above concisely. First, I'll set it straight that it's not to be in the lead, but the first sentence in the paragraph of the Name section. I would not in a million years try to force this into the lead. As to the comment about the <s>g</s>rowling version not solely being American, I apologize to my fellow Americans if I was offensive in making that crude generalization, and now that I think of it, it is way too generalized, so I will attempt to fix this when I relook my proposed change. In response to the general "it's incorrect, so why include it at all?" opposition, look, I know it may not be the author's preferred pronunciation, but whether she likes it or not, it's inevitable that Americans and apparently Brits alike will pronounce is a wrong way that she is apparently indifferent about (and by the way, it says so in a little box on the left hand side, not in the article). So due to the fact that it is not the way it should be pronounced by Rowling, and that not only Americans pronounce it <s>g</s>rowling, I will amend the suggested sentence to the following: |
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}} She opposes gender self-recognition{{sfn|Whited|2024|p=7}}<ref name=BacksProtest>{{cite news |title= JK Rowling backs protest over Scottish gender bill |date= 6 October 2022|url= https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-63162533 |publisher= [[BBC News]] |access-date= 5 May 2024}}</ref>{{efn| |
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<blockquote> |
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Rowling pronounces her [[Family name|surname]] "rolling" ({{IPAEng|rəʊ.lɪŋ}}),<ref name=bio><span class="plainlinks"> [http://www.cliphoto.com/potter/rowling.htm "The Not Especially Fascinating Life So Far of J. K. Rowling"]. Accessed [[21 March]] [[2006]]. </span></ref> but accepts the widely-used variant "rohwling" {{IPAEng|raʊ.lɪŋ}}.<ref name="American pronunciation">{{cite news |url=http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/06/20/entertainment/main559748.shtml |title=Final Hours To Harry Potter V |date=[[2003-06-10]] |publisher=[[CBS]]/[[Associated Press|AP]] |accessdate=2007-07-16}}</ref> |
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</blockquote> |
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Rowling wrote in 2020: "The current explosion of trans activism is urging a removal of almost all the robust systems through which candidates for sex reassignment were once required to pass. A man who intends to have no surgery and take no hormones may now secure himself a Gender Recognition Certificate and be a woman in the sight of the law."<ref name=RowlingReasons/> |
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I think this is more appropriate than what I last suggested. This version does not tell people that they're pronouncing it wrong or right, as is how it should be. It only exposes the two pronunciations, and hints at the fact that it should be pronounced "rolling" because that is what the author uses. <sub>└</sub><sup>'''[[User:Jared|<font color="#0084C9">Jared</font>]]'''</sup><sub>┘</sub><sup>┌</sup><sub>''[[User Talk:Jared|<font color="#009E49">t</font>]]''</sub><sup>┐</sup>  13:44, 17 July 2007 (UTC) |
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:What I don't get is why you are treating the way Rowling pronounces her last name as a kind of personal fashion statement. I'm willing to bet you wouldn't accept half the people you met mispronouncing your surname. Rowling pronounces her last name "rolling" because that's how the rest of her family pronounce it. Ergo, that is how her surname is pronounced. Just because other people mispronounce it that doesn't make it correct. That infobox didn't explain ''why'' Rowling accepted this variance in pronunciation; is it because she doesn't care how her name is pronounced, or is it because she recognises that she can't teach 100 million people correct pronunciation? [[User:Serendipodous|Serendipodous]] 13:58, 17 July 2007 (UTC) |
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}} and suggests that children and [[cisgender]] women are threatened by trans women and trans-positive messages.{{sfn|Duggan|2021|p=161}} In April 2024, responding to [[Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Act 2021|Scotland's Hate Crime and Public Order Act]], she tweeted a list of trans women, writing that they are "men, every last one of them".<ref name=Brooks2024>{{cite news |last1=Brooks |first1=Libby |title=JK Rowling’s posts on X will not be recorded as non-crime hate incident |url=https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/apr/03/jk-rowling-comments-scotland-non-crime-hate-incident |work=[[The Guardian]] |date=3 April 2024 |access-date= 3 May 2024}}</ref> |
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::We're an encyclopedia! We don't have to say why. We don't have to analyze the information we receive. We just have to display it in a NPOV way. Saying that someone should pronounce something one way, without even recognizing the alternate and more widely-used pronunciation, it just making a statement in and of itself. |
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::And since you brought it up, yes, it may bother me when people pronounce my last name different from how I pronounce it, but the fact is, there are so many ways to pronounce things that there is no one right way. There is a preferred way, but no right way. For example, the principal at my school speaks with an Irish accent; he's Irish. Because of this, every time he pronounces my last name, he'll say it differently than how I pronounce it (and likewise, I say his last name different than he pronounces his). And I don't care because I know that it's only a regional difference in pronunciation that is causing him to do this. No hard feelings. |
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Controversy over Rowling's gender-critical messaging accelerated in 2019 when she defended [[Maya Forstater]].{{sfn|Whited|2024|pp=6-8}} When Forstater's employment contract with the London branch of the [[Center for Global Development]] was not renewed after she expressed gender-critical views,{{sfn|Pugh|2020|p=7}} Rowling wrote that trans people should live in "peace and security", but questioned women being "force[d] out of their jobs for stating that sex is real".<ref name=Stack2019/>{{efn|A tribunal ruled in 2021 that Forstater's gender-critical views were protected under the 2010 UK [[Equality Act 2010|Equality Act]].<ref name=Faulkner2021>{{cite news |first= Doug |last= Faulkner |url= https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-57426579 |title= Maya Forstater: woman wins tribunal appeal over transgender tweets |publisher= [[BBC News]] |date= 10 June 2021 |access-date= 26 March 2022}}</ref><ref name=Siddique2021>{{cite news |first= Haroon |last= Siddique |date= 10 June 2021 |title= Gender-critical views are a protected belief, appeal tribunal rules|url= https://www.theguardian.com/law/2021/jun/10/gender-critical-views-protected-belief-appeal-tribunal-rules-maya-forstater |work= [[The Guardian]] |access-date= 26 March 2022}}</ref>{{sfn|Pape|2022|p=230}} In July 2022, a new tribunal decision was published (''[[Forstater v Center for Global Development Europe]]'') ruling that Forstater had suffered direct discrimination from her employer.<ref>{{cite news |title=Maya Forstater: Woman discriminated against over trans tweets, tribunal rules|date=6 July 2022 |url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-62061929 |publisher=[[BBC News]] |access-date=6 July 2022}}</ref>}} According to ''Harry Potter'' scholar Lana Whited, in the next six months "Rowling herself fanned the flames as she became increasingly vocal".{{sfn|Whited|2024|p=6}} In June 2020,{{sfn|Whited|2024|p=6}} Rowling mocked the phrase "[[people who menstruate]]",<ref name=Gross2020>{{Cite news|last=Gross|first=Jenny|date=7 June 2020|title=Daniel Radcliffe criticizes J.K. Rowling's anti-transgender tweets|work=[[The New York Times]]|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/07/arts/Jk-Rowling-controversy.html |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200607221400/https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/07/arts/Jk-Rowling-controversy.html |archive-date=7 June 2020 |url-access=subscription |url-status=live|access-date=6 January 2022 }}</ref> and tweeted that [[women's rights]] and "lived reality" would be "erased" if "sex isn't real".{{sfn|Duggan|2021|pp=14–15}}{{sfn|Pugh|2020|p=7}} |
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::Look at [[Iraq#Etymology]]. There it offers 3 different pronunciations: the best one, an acceptable one, and one that is considered unacceptable. That is the way it should go down here. By not recognizing a pronunciation that is common, we are just slapping those who say it like that in the face (an exaggeration, of course). We should at least say "hey, here's how the author condones the pronunciation, but look, there's a widely-used variant that may not be to the author's style of speaking, but that she 'happily accepts.'" I think it's the only way to go here, and my alternate does this. If anyone would like to suggest something different in addition to their reasons against mine, please do it! It doesn't get us anywhere if I'm the only one suggesting things here! <sub>└</sub><sup>'''[[User:Jared|<font color="#0084C9">Jared</font>]]'''</sup><sub>┘</sub><sup>┌</sup><sub>''[[User Talk:Jared|<font color="#009E49">t</font>]]''</sub><sup>┐</sup>  14:13, 17 July 2007 (UTC) |
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Rowling's views have impacted her reputation. As her views on the [[legal status of transgender people]] came under scrutiny,{{sfn|Suissa|Sullivan|2021|pp=66–69}} she received insults and threats{{sfn|Suissa|Sullivan|2021|p=69}}{{sfn|Whited|2024|p=9}} and discussion moved beyond the Twitter community.{{sfn|Schwirblat|Freberg|Freberg|2022|p=368}} While her remarks provoked condemnation,{{sfn|Duggan|2021|loc=PDF pp. 14–15 (160–161)}}{{sfn|Schwirblat|Freberg|Freberg|2022|pp=367–369}}{{sfn|Pape|2022|pp=229–230, 238}} sales of ''Harry Potter'' books grew during the [[COVID-19]] lockdown.{{sfn|Pape|2022|p=238}}<ref> {{cite news |first=Mark |last= Sweney |title= Harry Potter books prove UK lockdown hit despite JK Rowling trans rights row |work= [[The Guardian]] |date= 21 July 2020 |url= https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jul/21/jk-rowling-book-sales-unaffected-by-transgender-views-row |access-date= 3 May 2024}}</ref> Fans turned away from her work and boycotted events, and publishers hesitated to accept her work.{{sfn|Whited|2024|p=8}} Criticism came from the ''Harry Potter'' fansites [[MuggleNet]] and [[The Leaky Cauldron (website)|The Leaky Cauldron]],{{sfn|Henderson|2022|p=224}} and [[LGBT]] charities [[Mermaids (charity)|Mermaids]],<ref name=Petter2020>{{Cite web|last= Petter|first=Olivia|date=17 September 2020|title=Mermaids writes open letter to JK Rowling following her recent comments on trans people|url=https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/mermaids-jk-rowling-transphobia-transgender-sexual-abuse-domestic-letter-a9565176.html|access-date=26 March 2022|work=[[The Independent]] |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200615235531/https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/mermaids-jk-rowling-transphobia-transgender-sexual-abuse-domestic-letter-a9565176.html |archive-date=15 June 2020}}</ref> [[Stonewall (charity)|Stonewall]],<ref>{{cite news | url=https://www.newstatesman.com/long-reads/2021/11/the-battle-for-stonewall-the-lgbt-charity-and-the-uks-gender-wars | title=The battle for Stonewall: the LGBT charity and the UK's gender wars | work=[[New Statesman]]|first=Gaby |last=Hinsliff|date=3 November 2021 | access-date=24 November 2021}}</ref> and [[Human Rights Campaign]].<ref name= Milne2020/> [[GLAAD]] called Rowling's comments "cruel" and "inaccurate".<ref name=AP7June2020>{{cite news |title= JK Rowling's tweets on transgender people spark outrage |date= 7 June 2020 |url= https://apnews.com/article/entertainment-jk-rowling-us-news-media-7338b2b262090c00f04deafe2e6689c2 |publisher= [[Associated Press]] |access-date= 4 May 2024}}</ref> Leading actors of the [[Wizarding World]] spoke out against her stance;<ref name=Waterson2020>{{Cite news|last= Waterson |first= Jim|title= Children's news website apologises to JK Rowling over trans tweet row|url= https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jul/23/childrens-news-website-apologises-jk-rowling-trans-tweet-day|date= 23 July 2020 |access-date=26 March 2022|work=[[The Guardian]] |quote= Rowling's comments on gender were condemned by LGBT charities and the leading stars of her Harry Potter film franchise.}}</ref><ref name=Lang2020>{{cite magazine |last=Lang |first=Brent |title= Eddie Redmayne criticizes J.K. Rowling's anti-trans tweets |date= 10 June 2020 |url= https://variety.com/2020/film/news/eddie-redmayne-jk-rowling-anti-trans-tweets-harry-potter-fantastic-beasts-1234630226/ |magazine= [[Variety (magazine)|Variety]]|access-date=28 March 2022 |quote= Eddie Redmayne, star of the ''Fantastic Beasts'' franchise, is speaking out against J.K. Rowling's anti-trans tweets, as the controversy surrounding the author and her beliefs continues to swirl.}}</ref> [[Daniel Radcliffe]], [[Emma Watson]], [[Rupert Grint]], [[Eddie Redmayne]] and others declared support for the transgender community.{{sfn|Borah|2024|p=375}}{{efn| [[Helena Bonham Carter]],<ref name=Evans2022> {{cite news |first= Greg |last= Evans |url= https://deadline.com/2022/11/helena-bonham-carter-johnny-depp-j-k-rowling-1235182523/ |title= Helena Bonham Carter says Johnny Depp 'completely vindicated' in defamation trial, and J.K. Rowling 'hounded' for transgender stance |work= [[Deadline Hollywood]] |access-date= 18 December 2022}}</ref> [[Robbie Coltrane]],<ref>{{cite news |last= Yasharoff |first= Hannah |title= How the 'Harry Potter' reunion addresses author J.K. Rowling's anti-trans controversy |date= 30 December 2021|url= https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/movies/2021/12/30/harry-potter-return-hogwarts-20th-reunion-emma-watson-jk-rowling-controversy/9042955002/ |work= [[USA Today]] |access-date= 2 April 2022}}</ref> and [[Ralph Fiennes]] supported Rowling.<ref name= Hibberd2021>{{cite news |first= James |last= Hibberd |url= https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/ralph-fiennes-defends-j-k-rowling-amid-trans-controversy-says-backlash-is-disturbing-4151944/ |title= Ralph Fiennes defends J.K. rowling amid trans controversy, says backlash is 'disturbing' |date= 17 March 2021 |access-date=26 March 2022 |work= [[The Hollywood Reporter]]}}</ref>}} After [[Kerry Kennedy]] expressed "profound disappointment" in her views, Rowling returned the [[Ripple of Hope Award]] given to her by the Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights organisation.<ref name=RFKAward>{{cite news |last=Flood|first=Alison |url= https://amp.theguardian.com/books/2020/aug/28/jk-rowling-robert-f-kennedy-human-rights-award-trans-views|title=JK Rowling returns human rights award to group that denounces her trans views |work=[[The Guardian]]|date=28 August 2020|access-date=28 August 2020}}</ref> |
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:::Before we put words into Rowling's mouth, I'd prefer a direct quote from her on the issue, indeed, I would prefer a comment that was attributed to anyone at all, rather than a single sentence in a box on the side of a fairly scanty and inconseqential report. [[User:Serendipodous|Serendipodous]] 14:17, 17 July 2007 (UTC) |
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::::As would I. It would have made my case a lot stronger. But I'm not going to doubt AP and CBS. I think they're very reliable sources. And ever regardless of whether she accepts the name or not (I wouldn't care if there was a source that says "Don't ever call me by the pronunciation or I'll cut your head off!), it is still important to recognize the alternate. I don't know how we should do this, but I've offered my suggested sentence. |
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Rowling rejects these characterisations and denies being transphobic.<ref name=RowlingReasons>{{cite web|title=J.K. Rowling writes about her reasons for speaking out on sex and gender issues |url=https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/ |publisher=JK Rowling |date=10 June 2020 |access-date=10 June 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200610182056/https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/ |archive-date=10 June 2020 |url-status=live}}</ref><ref name= Dismisses>{{cite news |title= JK Rowling dismisses backlash over trans comments: 'I don't care about my legacy' |date= 22 February 2023|url= https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-64729304 |publisher= [[BBC News]] |access-date= 3 May 2024}}</ref> In an essay posted on her website in June 2020 – that left trans people feeling betrayed{{sfn|Whited|2024|p=7}}{{sfn|Henderson|2022|p=224}} – Rowling said her views on women's rights arose from her experience as a survivor of domestic abuse and [[sexual assault]].{{sfn|Duggan|2021|pp=160–161)}}<ref name=Shirbon2020>{{cite news |last1=Shirbon |first1=Estelle |title=J.K. Rowling reveals past abuse and defends right to speak on trans issues |url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-rowling/j-k-rowling-reveals-past-abuse-and-defends-right-to-speak-on-trans-issues-idUSKBN23H2XI |publisher=[[Reuters]] |date=10 June 2020 |access-date=13 June 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200611200348/https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-rowling/j-k-rowling-reveals-past-abuse-and-defends-right-to-speak-on-trans-issues-idUSKBN23H2XI |archive-date=11 June 2020 |url-status=live}}</ref> While affirming that "the majority of trans-identified people not only pose zero threat to others, but are vulnerable ... Trans people need and deserve protection", she wrote that it would be unsafe to allow "any man who believes or feels he's a woman" into bathrooms or changing rooms.<ref name= Shirbon2020/><ref>{{cite news |last1=Gonzalez |first1=Sandra |title=J.K. Rowling explains her gender identity views in essay amid backlash |url=https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/10/entertainment/jk-rowling/index.html |access-date=16 September 2023 |publisher=[[CNN]] |date=10 June 2020}}</ref><ref>{{cite news |last1=Garrand |first1=Danielle |title=J.K. Rowling defends herself after accusations of making 'anti-trans' comments on Twitter |url=https://www.cbsnews.com/news/j-k-rowling-defends-anti-trans-comments-twitter/ |access-date=16 September 2023 |publisher=[[CBS News]] |date=11 June 2020}}</ref> Whited asserted in 2024 that Rowling's sometimes "flippant" and "simplistic understanding of gender identity" had permanently changed her "relationship not only with fans, readers, and scholars ... but also with her works themselves".{{sfn|Whited|2024|pp=6, 8–9}} |
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::::On a side-bar, it's customary to strike out something you've already submitted rather than change the wording. No big deal, but I thought you might want to know. <sub>└</sub><sup>'''[[User:Jared|<font color="#0084C9">Jared</font>]]'''</sup><sub>┘</sub><sup>┌</sup><sub>''[[User Talk:Jared|<font color="#009E49">t</font>]]''</sub><sup>┐</sup>  14:21, 17 July 2007 (UTC) |
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Rowling's responses to proposed changes to UK gender recognition laws,<ref name= Milne2020>{{cite web|first1= Amber |last1=Milne|first2 = Rachel| last2 =Savage | url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-lgbt-rowling-explainer-trfn-idUSKBN23I3AI | title=Explainer: J. K. Rowling and trans women in single-sex spaces: what's the furore? | publisher=[[Reuters]] | date=11 June 2020 | access-date=6 April 2021 }}</ref><ref name= Brooks2020>{{Cite news|last=Brooks|first=Libby|date=11 June 2020|title=Why is JK Rowling speaking out now on sex and gender debate? |url= http://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/jun/11/why-is-jk-rowling-speaking-out-now-on-sex-and-gender-debate|access-date=14 January 2022 |work= [[The Guardian]] }}</ref>{{efn|The UK laws and proposed changes are the [[Gender Recognition Act 2004]], the [[Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill]] and the related [[Equality Act 2010]].{{sfn|Pedersen|2022|loc=Abstract}}{{sfn|Suissa|Sullivan|2021|pp=66–69}}{{sfn|Duggan|2021|loc=PDF pp. 14–15 (160–161)}} }} and her views on [[sexual identity|sex]] and [[gender identity|gender]], have provoked controversy.{{sfn|Duggan|2021|loc=PDF pp. 14–15 (160–161)}} Her statements have divided [[Feminist views on transgender topics|feminists]];<ref name=Kottasova2019>{{cite news |first1= Ivana |last1= Kottasová |first2= Scottie | last2= Andrew|title= J.K. Rowling's 'transphobia' tweet row spotlights a fight between equality campaigners and radical feminists |publisher= [[CNN]] |date= 20 December 2019 |access-date= 29 March 2022 | url= https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/20/uk/jk-rowling-transgender-explainer-intl-gbr/index.html}}</ref><ref name=BBC2020JKRResponds>{{cite news |url= https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-53002557 |publisher= [[BBC News]] |title= JK Rowling responds to trans tweets criticism |date= 11 June 2020 |access-date= 29 March 2022}}</ref><ref>{{cite news | url=https://www.newstatesman.com/international/2020/09/judith-butler-culture-wars-jk-rowling-and-living-anti-intellectual-times | title=Judith Butler on the culture wars, JK Rowling and living in 'anti-intellectual times'|first=Alona |last=Ferber | work=[[New Statesman]] | date=22 September 2020 | access-date=26 March 2021}}</ref> fuelled<!-- This article uses British spelling --> debates on [[freedom of speech]],{{sfn|Pape|2022|pp=229–230}}<ref>{{cite web|title=BBC nominates J.K.Rowling's controversial essay of trans rights for award|url=https://www.dw.com/en/bbc-nominates-jk-rowlings-controversial-essay-on-trans-rights-for-award/a-56014673|website=[[DW News]]|date=22 December 2020|access-date=22 December 2020}}</ref> [[academic freedom]]{{sfn|Suissa|Sullivan|2021|pp=66–69}} and [[cancel culture]];{{sfn|Schwirblat|Freberg|Freberg|2022|pp=367–369}} and prompted declarations of [[Transgender rights movement|support for transgender people]] from the literary,<ref>UK, US, Canada, Ireland: {{cite news |last= Flood |first= Alison |date=9 October 2020|title= Stephen King, Margaret Atwood and Roxane Gay champion trans rights in open letter|url= https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/oct/09/stephen-king-margaret-atwood-roxane-gay-champion-trans-rights-open-letter-jk-rowling |work= [[The Guardian]] |access-date= 2 April 2022}}</ref> arts<ref>{{cite magazine|last= Rowley |first= Glenn |title= Artists fire back at J.K. Rowling's anti-trans remarks, share messages in support of the community|url= https://www.billboard.com/culture/pride/artists-fire-back-jk-rowling-anti-trans-remarks-9400386/|magazine= [[Billboard (magazine)|Billboard]]|date= 11 June 2020 |access-date= 7 April 2022}}</ref> and culture sectors.<ref>Culture sector: |
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* [[Universal Destinations & Experiences]], [[Warner Bros.]] and [[Scholastic Corporation]]: {{cite news |last1= Siegel |first1= Tatiana |last2= Abramovitch |first2= Seth |date= 10 June 2020 |title= Universal Parks responds to J.K. Rowling tweets: 'Our core values include diversity, inclusion and respect' |work= [[The Hollywood Reporter]] |url= https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/lifestyle/lifestyle-news/universal-parks-responds-jk-rowling-tweets-core-values-include-diversity-inclusion-respect-1297845/ |access-date= 3 April 2022|ref=none}} |
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* [[Warner Bros. Interactive Entertainment]] president: {{cite news |last= Skrebels |first= Joe |title= WB Interactive president responds to ongoing debate over supporting JK Rowling |date=1 October 2020 |url= https://www.ign.com/articles/wb-interactive-president-responds-to-ongoing-debate-over-supporting-jk-rowling |publisher= [[IGN]] |access-date= 2 April 2022|ref=none}}</ref> |
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When [[Maya Forstater]]'s employment contract with the London branch of the [[Center for Global Development]] was not renewed after she tweeted [[Feminist views on transgender topics#Gender-critical feminism and trans-exclusionary radical feminism|gender-critical views]],{{sfn|Pugh|2020|p=7}}<ref name=Stack2019>{{Cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/19/world/europe/jk-rowling-maya-forstater-transgender.html|title=J.K. Rowling criticized after tweeting support for anti-transgender researcher|last=Stack|first=Liam|date=19 December 2019|work=[[The New York Times]]|access-date=13 June 2020| url-access=registration|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200613012737/https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/19/world/europe/jk-rowling-maya-forstater-transgender.html|archive-date=13 June 2020|url-status=live}}</ref> Rowling responded in December 2019 with a tweet that [[transgender]] people should live their lives as they pleased in "peace and security", but questioned women being "force[d] out of their jobs for stating that sex is real".<ref name=Stack2019/>{{efn|A tribunal ruled in 2021 that Forstater's gender-critical views were protected under the 2010 UK [[Equality Act 2010|Equality Act]].<ref name=Faulkner2021>{{cite news |first= Doug |last= Faulkner |url= https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-57426579 |title= Maya Forstater: woman wins tribunal appeal over transgender tweets |publisher= [[BBC News]] |date= 10 June 2021 |access-date= 26 March 2022}}</ref><ref name=Siddique2021>{{cite news |first= Haroon |last= Siddique |date= 10 June 2021 |title= Gender-critical views are a protected belief, appeal tribunal rules|url= https://www.theguardian.com/law/2021/jun/10/gender-critical-views-protected-belief-appeal-tribunal-rules-maya-forstater |work= [[The Guardian]] |access-date= 26 March 2022}}</ref> In July 2022, a new tribunal decision was published (''[[Forstater v Center for Global Development Europe]]'') ruling that Forstater had suffered direct discrimination from her employer.<ref>{{cite news |title=Maya Forstater: Woman discriminated against over trans tweets, tribunal rules|date=6 July 2022 |url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-62061929 |publisher=[[BBC News]] |access-date=6 July 2022}}</ref>}} In another controversial tweet in June 2020,<ref name=Petter2020>{{Cite web|last= Petter|first=Olivia|date=17 September 2020|title=Mermaids writes open letter to JK Rowling following her recent comments on trans people|url=https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/mermaids-jk-rowling-transphobia-transgender-sexual-abuse-domestic-letter-a9565176.html|access-date=26 March 2022|work=[[The Independent]] |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200615235531/https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/mermaids-jk-rowling-transphobia-transgender-sexual-abuse-domestic-letter-a9565176.html |archive-date=15 June 2020}}</ref> Rowling mocked an article for using the phrase "[[people who menstruate]]",<ref name=Gross2020>{{Cite news|last=Gross|first=Jenny|date=7 June 2020|title=Daniel Radcliffe criticizes J.K. Rowling's anti-transgender tweets|work=[[The New York Times]]|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/07/arts/Jk-Rowling-controversy.html |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200607221400/https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/07/arts/Jk-Rowling-controversy.html |archive-date=7 June 2020 |url-access=subscription |url-status=live|access-date=6 January 2022 }}</ref> and tweeted that [[women's rights]] and "lived reality" would be "erased" if "sex isn't real".{{sfn|Duggan|2021|loc=PDF pp. 14–15}}<ref>{{cite magazine|url=https://variety.com/2020/film/news/jk-rowling-transphobic-tweets-controversy-1234627081/|title=J.K. Rowling gets backlash over anti-trans tweets|last=Moreau|first=Jordan|magazine=[[Variety (magazine)|Variety]]|date=6 June 2020|access-date=13 June 2020|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200607005447/https://variety.com/2020/film/news/jk-rowling-transphobic-tweets-controversy-1234627081/|archive-date=7 June 2020|url-status=live}}</ref> |
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:::::I just did a search of Accio Quote and found nothing relating to her accepting any alternate pronunciations of her name. She sticks with "rolling." But regardless, I don't buy your argument. This is the internet. The entire English-speaking world has access to our site. We can therefore tell millions of people the simple facts. Rowling's surname is pronounced "rolling." Some people pronounce it "<s>g</s>rowling", and those people are incorrect. The more people see the correct pronunciation of her name, the fewer people will pronounce it incorrectly and the less this "variant" will matter. [[User:Serendipodous|Serendipodous]] 14:26, 17 July 2007 (UTC) |
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[[LGBT]] charities and leading actors of the [[Wizarding World]] franchise condemned Rowling's comments;<ref name=Waterson2020>{{Cite news|last= Waterson |first= Jim|title= Children's news website apologises to JK Rowling over trans tweet row|url= https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jul/23/childrens-news-website-apologises-jk-rowling-trans-tweet-day|date= 23 July 2020 |access-date=26 March 2022|work=[[The Guardian]] |quote= Rowling's comments on gender were condemned by LGBT charities and the leading stars of her Harry Potter film franchise.}}</ref><ref name=Lang2020>{{cite magazine |last=Lang |first=Brent |title= Eddie Redmayne criticizes J.K. Rowling's anti-trans tweets |date= 10 June 2020 |url= https://variety.com/2020/film/news/eddie-redmayne-jk-rowling-anti-trans-tweets-harry-potter-fantastic-beasts-1234630226/ |magazine= [[Variety (magazine)|Variety]]|access-date=28 March 2022 |quote= Eddie Redmayne, star of the ''Fantastic Beasts'' franchise, is speaking out against J.K. Rowling's anti-trans tweets, as the controversy surrounding the author and her beliefs continues to swirl.}}</ref>{{efn| [[Daniel Radcliffe]], [[Emma Watson]], [[Rupert Grint]],<ref name= Hibberd2021/> [[Eddie Redmayne]]<ref name=Lang2020/> and others expressed support for the transgender community in reaction to Rowling's comments;<ref>{{cite magazine |first= Maureen |last= Lenker|title= Every Harry Potter actor who's spoken out against J.K. Rowling's controversial trans comments |date= 10 June 2020 |access-date= 1 April 2022 |magazine= [[Entertainment Weekly]]|url=https://ew.com/movies/every-harry-potter-actor-whos-spoken-out-against-j-k-rowlings-controversial-transgender-comments/ }}</ref><ref>{{cite news |first= Maggie |last= Baska|title= Stephen Fry defends 'friendship' with JK Rowling: 'I'm sorry that people are upset' |date= 20 May 2021 |url= https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2021/05/20/stephen-fry-jk-rowling-friend-harry-potter-jordan-b-peterson-podcast-trans/ |publisher= [[PinkNews]] |access-date= 29 March 2022}}</ref> [[Helena Bonham Carter]],<ref name=Evans2022> {{cite news |first= Greg |last= Evans |url= https://deadline.com/2022/11/helena-bonham-carter-johnny-depp-j-k-rowling-1235182523/ |title= Helena Bonham Carter says Johnny Depp 'completely vindicated' in defamation trial, and J.K. Rowling 'hounded' for transgender stance |work= [[Deadline Hollywood]] |access-date= 18 December 2022}}</ref> [[Robbie Coltrane]],<ref>{{cite news |last= Yasharoff |first= Hannah |title= How the 'Harry Potter' reunion addresses author J.K. Rowling's anti-trans controversy |date= 30 December 2021|url= https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/movies/2021/12/30/harry-potter-return-hogwarts-20th-reunion-emma-watson-jk-rowling-controversy/9042955002/ |work= [[USA Today]] |access-date= 2 April 2022}}</ref> and [[Ralph Fiennes]] supported Rowling.<ref name= Hibberd2021>{{cite news |first= James |last= Hibberd |url= https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/ralph-fiennes-defends-j-k-rowling-amid-trans-controversy-says-backlash-is-disturbing-4151944/ |title= Ralph Fiennes defends J.K. rowling amid trans controversy, says backlash is 'disturbing' |date= 17 March 2021 |access-date=26 March 2022 |work= [[The Hollywood Reporter]]}}</ref>}} [[GLAAD]] called them "cruel" and "inaccurate".<ref name= Yasharoff2020> {{cite news |last= Yasharoff |first=Hannah|url= https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/celebrities/2020/06/07/j-k-rowling-harry-potter-author-slammed-transphobic-comments/3169833001/ |title= J.K. Rowling reveals she's a sexual assault survivor; Emma Watson reacts to trans comments |work= [[USA Today]] |date= 10 June 2020 |access-date= 27 March 2022}}</ref> Rowling responded with an essay on her website<ref name=RowlingReasons>{{cite web|title=J.K. Rowling writes about her reasons for speaking out on sex and gender issues |url=https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/ |publisher=JK Rowling |date=10 June 2020 |access-date=10 June 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200610182056/https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/ |archive-date=10 June 2020 |url-status=live}}</ref> in which she revealed that her views on women's rights were informed by her experience as a survivor of domestic abuse and [[sexual assault]].<ref name=Shirbon2020>{{cite news |last1=Shirbon |first1=Estelle |title=J.K. Rowling reveals past abuse and defends right to speak on trans issues |url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-rowling/j-k-rowling-reveals-past-abuse-and-defends-right-to-speak-on-trans-issues-idUSKBN23H2XI |publisher=[[Reuters]] |date=10 June 2020 |access-date=13 June 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200611200348/https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-rowling/j-k-rowling-reveals-past-abuse-and-defends-right-to-speak-on-trans-issues-idUSKBN23H2XI |archive-date=11 June 2020 |url-status=live}}</ref> While affirming that "the majority of trans-identified people not only pose zero threat to others, but are vulnerable ... Trans people need and deserve protection", she believed that it would be unsafe to allow "any man who believes or feels he's a woman" into bathrooms or changing rooms.<ref name= Shirbon2020/><ref>{{cite news |last1=Gonzalez |first1=Sandra |title=J.K. Rowling explains her gender identity views in essay amid backlash |url=https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/10/entertainment/jk-rowling/index.html |access-date=16 September 2023 |work=[[CNN]] |date=10 June 2020}}</ref><ref>{{cite news |last1=Garrand |first1=Danielle |title= J.K. Rowling defends herself after accusations of making "anti-trans" comments on Twitter |url=https://www.cbsnews.com/news/j-k-rowling-defends-anti-trans-comments-twitter/ |access-date=16 September 2023 |work=[[CBS News]] |date=11 June 2020}}</ref> Writing of her own experiences with [[sexism]] and [[misogyny]],<ref>{{cite news |first= Sian |last= Cain |date= 11 June 2020 |title= JK Rowling reveals she is survivor of domestic abuse and sexual assault |url= https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/jun/10/jk-rowling-says-survivor-of-domestic-abuse-sexual-assault |work= [[The Guardian]] |access-date= 29 March 2022}}</ref> she wondered if the "allure of escaping womanhood" would have led her to [[Gender transitioning|transition]] if she had been born later, and said that trans activism was "seeking to erode 'woman' as a political and biological class".<ref name=DAlessandro2020>{{cite news |last=D'Alessandro |first=Anthony |title=J.K. Rowling defends trans statements in lengthy essay, reveals she's a sexual assault survivor & says 'trans people need and deserve protection' |url=https://deadline.com/2020/06/j-k-rowling-defends-trans-statements-essay-1202955524/ |access-date=5 January 2022 |work=[[Deadline Hollywood]] |date=10 June 2020}}</ref> |
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::::::No, that's where I believe that you're intrinsically wrong. Wikipedia isn't here to tell people what to do. It's here to report on what's already been done. Think of it like this: each article is supposed to be an expository essay, not a persuasive essay. And currently, there are two pronunciations: one condoned as correct by the author, and one I'm sure reluctantly accepted by the author but widely accepted by the general public. The Iraq article, as I mentioned above, does a superb job at exposing the various pronunciations, and then telling which is more appropriate to use. And that's what should be done here. <sub>└</sub><sup>'''[[User:Jared|<font color="#0084C9">Jared</font>]]'''</sup><sub>┘</sub><sup>┌</sup><sub>''[[User Talk:Jared|<font color="#009E49">t</font>]]''</sub><sup>┐</sup>  14:42, 17 July 2007 (UTC) |
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Rowling's continual statements – beginning in 2017{{sfn|Duggan|2021|loc=PDF pp. 14–15 (160–161)}}<ref name= Jacobs2023>{{cite news |last= Jacobs |first= Julia |title= Hogwarts legacy can't cast aside debate over J. K. Rowling |url= https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/09/arts/hogwarts-legacy-jk-rowling.html |date= 9 February 2023 |work = [[The New York Times]] |access-date= 14 July 2023}}</ref><ref name= Spangler2023>{{cite news |last= Spangler|first= Todd |title= J.K. Rowling addresses backlash to her anti-trans comments in new podcast: 'I never set out to upset anyone' |url= https://variety.com/2023/digital/news/jk-rowling-anti-trans-comments-podcast-witch-trials-1235522301/ |date= 14 February 2023|work= [[Variety (magazine)|Variety]]|access-date= 14 July 2023}}</ref> – have been called transphobic by critics<ref name= Breznican2023>{{cite news |last= Breznican |first= Anthony |title= J.K. Rowling will oversee a new streaming ''Harry Potter'' series |url= https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2023/04/jk-rowling-harry-potter-series|date= 12 April 2023 |work= [[Vanity Fair (magazine)|Vanity Fair]] |access-date= 14 July 2023}}</ref><ref name=Rosenblatt2020>{{Cite web|last = Rosenblatt| first =Kalhan |title=J.K. Rowling doubles down in what some critics call a 'transphobic manifesto' |url= https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/j-k-rowling-doubles-down-what-some-critics-call-transphobic-n1229351|date= 10 June 2020 |access-date=19 January 2022|publisher=[[NBC News]] }}</ref> and she has been referred to as a [[TERF (acronym)|TERF]].<ref name= Rosenblatt2020/>{{sfn|Steinfeld|2020|pp=34–35}}{{sfn|Schwirblat|Freberg|Freberg|2022|pp=367–368}} She rejects these characterisations and the notion that she holds animosity towards transgender people, saying that her viewpoint has been misunderstood.<ref name=RowlingReasons/><ref name= Breznican2023/><ref name= Spangler2023/> Criticism of Rowling's views has come from the ''Harry Potter'' fansites [[MuggleNet]] and [[The Leaky Cauldron (website)|The Leaky Cauldron]];<ref name=FanSites>{{cite news|url=https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/03/harry-potter-fan-sites-distance-themselves-from-jk-rowling-over-transgender-rights|title=Harry Potter fan sites distance themselves from JK Rowling over transgender rights|publisher=[[Reuters]]|work=[[The Guardian]]|date=3 July 2020|access-date=3 July 2020|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200703011204/https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/03/harry-potter-fan-sites-distance-themselves-from-jk-rowling-over-transgender-rights|archive-date=3 July 2020|url-status=live}}</ref> and the charities [[Mermaids (charity)|Mermaids]],<ref name=Petter2020/> [[Stonewall (charity)|Stonewall]],<ref>{{cite news | url=https://www.newstatesman.com/long-reads/2021/11/the-battle-for-stonewall-the-lgbt-charity-and-the-uks-gender-wars | title=The battle for Stonewall: the LGBT charity and the UK's gender wars | work=[[New Statesman]]|first=Gaby |last=Hinsliff|date=3 November 2021 | access-date=24 November 2021}}</ref> and [[Human Rights Campaign]].<ref>{{cite news |first= Elise |last= Brisco |title=Dave Chappelle says he's 'Team TERF,' defends J.K. Rowling in new Netflix comedy special|url= https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/tv/2021/10/05/dave-chappelle-terf-defends-j-k-rowling-netflix-special/6002017001/ |work= [[USA Today]] |date= 8 October 2021|access-date= 29 March 2022}}</ref> After [[Kerry Kennedy]] expressed "profound disappointment" in her views, Rowling returned the [[Ripple of Hope Award]] given to her by the Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights organisation.<ref name=RFKAward>{{cite news |last=Flood|first=Alison |url= https://amp.theguardian.com/books/2020/aug/28/jk-rowling-robert-f-kennedy-human-rights-award-trans-views|title=JK Rowling returns human rights award to group that denounces her trans views |work=[[The Guardian]]|date=28 August 2020|access-date=28 August 2020}}</ref> |
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:::::::''"We're an encyclopedia! We don't have to say why."'' Wow I don't even know where to start telling you what's wrong with that statement. The most fundamental requirement of an encyclopaedia is that the information contained therein should be ''correct''. As she is very specific about the way her surname is pronounced then the '''only correct way'' to pronounce it is 'rolling'. Why is this even being debated I fail to see how adding anything to this section achieves any effect other than to introduce incorrect information? Oh and it is only custom practice to strike your comments if you are retracting them, not if you are re-writing them to expand or clarify what you've said. <b>[[User:AulaTPN|<font color="#89f">A</font><font color="#78e">u</font><font color="#67d">l</font><font color="#56c">a</font>]][[User talk:AulaTPN|<sup><font color="#45b">T</font><font color="#34a">P</font><font color="#239">N</font></sup>]]</b> 14:52, 17 July 2007 (UTC) |
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As Rowling's views on the [[legal status of transgender people]] came under scrutiny,{{sfn|Suissa|Sullivan|2021|pp=66–69}} she received insults and death threats{{sfn|Suissa|Sullivan|2021|p=69}}{{sfn|Qiao|2022|p=1323}} and discussion moved beyond the Twitter community.{{sfn|Schwirblat|Freberg|Freberg|2022|p=368}} Some performers and feminists have supported her.{{sfn|Schwirblat|Freberg|Freberg|2022|p=368}}<ref> Supporting Rowling: |
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::::::::I'm done arguing this due to the fact that I believe my argument was more cogent. Everything that I will add to the main page will be correct information. After careful consideration of the facts, I will drop the CBS source and eliminate any suggestion as to the fact that she accepts the alternate pronunciation. I will, however, include the alternate pronunciation, indicating that it is incorrect, but a widely-used variant. I believe that you will agree with this. |
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* [[Ayaan Hirsi Ali]]: {{cite news |first=Katie |last=Law |date= 15 October 2020|title= JK Rowling and the bitter battle of the book world |url=https://www.standard.co.uk/culture/books/trans-battle-book-world-jk-rowling-a4571221.html |work= [[Evening Standard]] |access-date=27 March 2022|ref=none}} |
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* [[Allison Bailey]]: {{cite news |url= https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/maya-forstater-transgender-twitter-jk-rowling-b1838151.html |title= Maya Forstater: who is woman in employment tribunal over transgender comments? |first= Sam |last= Hancock |date= 27 April 2021 |work= [[The Independent]] |access-date= 27 March 2022|archive-url= https://web.archive.org/web/20210427131430/https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/maya-forstater-transgender-twitter-jk-rowling-b1838151.html |archive-date= 27 April 2021 |quote= criminal defence barrister Allison Bailey – known for launching legal action against LGBT+ rights charity Stonewall over its attempt to have her investigated for setting up the anti-trans rights group LGB Alliance – has also been a vocal supporter of Ms Forstater.|ref=none}} |
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* [[Julie Bindel]]: {{cite news |last1=Thorpe |first1=Vanessa |title=JK Rowling: from magic to the heart of a Twitter storm |url=https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/jun/14/jk-rowling-from-magic-to-the-heart-of-a-twitter-storm |work=[[The Guardian]] |date=14 June 2020 |quote=Arrayed on Rowling's side are some of the veteran voices of feminism, including the radical Julie Bindel, who spoke out in support this weekend |access-date=6 July 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200704200412/https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/jun/14/jk-rowling-from-magic-to-the-heart-of-a-twitter-storm |archive-date=4 July 2020 |url-status=live|ref=none}} |
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* [[Dave Chappelle]]: {{Cite news |first= Maya |last=Yang|date=7 October 2021|title='I'm team Terf': Dave Chappelle under fire over pro-JK Rowling trans stance|url=https://www.theguardian.com/stage/2021/oct/07/dave-chappelle-transgender-netflix-special-backlash|access-date=27 March 2022|work=[[The Guardian]]|ref=none}} |
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* [[Dana International]]: {{cite news |last1=Shirbon |first1=Estelle |title=J.K. Rowling reveals past abuse and defends right to speak on trans issues |url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-rowling/j-k-rowling-reveals-past-abuse-and-defends-right-to-speak-on-trans-issues-idUSKBN23H2XI |publisher=[[Reuters]] |date=10 June 2020 |access-date=13 June 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200611200348/https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-rowling/j-k-rowling-reveals-past-abuse-and-defends-right-to-speak-on-trans-issues-idUSKBN23H2XI |archive-date=11 June 2020 |url-status=live|ref=none}} |
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* [[Eddie Izzard]]: {{cite news |title='I don't think JK Rowling is transphobic,' says gender-fluid comedian Eddie Izzard |url=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/comedy/what-to-see/dont-think-jk-rowling-transphobic-says-gender-fluid-comedian/ |archive-url=https://ghostarchive.org/archive/20220110/https://www.telegraph.co.uk/comedy/what-to-see/dont-think-jk-rowling-transphobic-says-gender-fluid-comedian/ |archive-date=10 January 2022 |url-access=subscription |url-status=live |access-date=27 November 2021 |work=[[The Daily Telegraph]]|date=1 January 2021|ref=none}}{{cbignore}} |
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* [[Kathleen Stock]], [[Alison Moyet]]: {{cite news |url= https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-53002557 |publisher= [[BBC News]] |title= JK Rowling responds to trans tweets criticism |date= 11 June 2020 |access-date= 29 March 2022}}</ref> Figures from the arts world criticised "hate speech directed against her".<ref name= Flockhart2020>{{cite news |last= Flockhart |first= Gary |date= 28 September 2020 |access-date= 2 April 2022 |work = [[The Scotsman]] |title= JK Rowling receives support from Ian McEwan and Frances Barber amid 'transphobia' row|url= https://www.scotsman.com/news/people/jk-rowling-receives-support-from-ian-mcewan-and-frances-barber-amid-transphobia-row-2986268|ref=none}}</ref> |
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|} |
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::::::::And about the comments thing, I may have said it poorly, but what I meant was that anytime you change what you have already written, you should strike you old comments and insert the new ones after. Sorry for the mistake. <sub>└</sub><sup>'''[[User:Jared|<font color="#0084C9">Jared</font>]]'''</sup><sub>┘</sub><sup>┌</sup><sub>''[[User Talk:Jared|<font color="#009E49">t</font>]]''</sub><sup>┐</sup>  15:01, 17 July 2007 (UTC) |
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{{cot|Sources}} |
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:::::::::More cogent? Hardly. Your edit to the article is way to strong in favour of the alternative pronunciation. It should state that the correct pronunciation is "rolling" and that, although widely used, "rohling" is incorrect. Also, British English has nothing to do with it - it's not a UK/US thing, it's an issue of ignorance. <b>[[User:AulaTPN|<font color="#89f">A</font><font color="#78e">u</font><font color="#67d">l</font><font color="#56c">a</font>]][[User talk:AulaTPN|<sup><font color="#45b">T</font><font color="#34a">P</font><font color="#239">N</font></sup>]]</b> 15:21, 17 July 2007 (UTC) |
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{{reflist-talk}} |
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{{notelist-talk}} |
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{{cob}} |
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=== Discussion of draft 6 === |
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::There's a big difference between regional pronunciations of various ''words'' and the pronunciation of names. Even allowing for regional differrences in pronunciation of certain names (like Sean, for example), there are clearly two possible pronunciations for a name like "Rowling": "rolling" or "r "ow" ling." This isn't a case of regional variation, but of a range of possible pronunciations: in this case, there ''is'' a right and a wrong pronunciation, just like the famous river is called the "tems" not the "thaymes." The article should use the correct pronunciation, which is the one Rowling herself uses. (Compare, for example, Catherine Zeta-Jones. She has said herself that the correct pronunciation is "zetta," but she goes by "zeeta"). [[User:Exploding Boy|Exploding Boy]] 15:30, 17 July 2007 (UTC) |
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My intent was to work in everything mentioned under Draft 5, recognizing that the first sentence may still be a sticking point. My apologies if I missed anything (it's been quite a chore to keep up with this talk page :). {{pb}} Going forward, could people please remember that we are now at a state which is approaching final and would like others to weigh in, so please try to keep your feedback chronological, brief, and within a separate fourth-level heading when starting a new issue. All that said, I think great progress has been made, in a collegial and collaborative environment!! [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 16:53, 5 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:Sandy, for consistency with the previous drafts, I think these need to be flipped with the new one on the right and the historical on the left. Unless I'm missing something? [[User:Victoriaearle|Victoria]] ([[User talk:Victoriaearle|tk]]) 20:28, 5 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:I've reverted the addition by [[user:Jared|Jared]] because consensus among the editors at this point as that this statement does not belong. The article is about JK Rowling, not about the millions of people who mispronounce her name. We should stick to the simple fact that this is how she pronounces her name and leave it at that. People who have been pronouncing the other way will therefore be able to infer that their pronunciation is wrong. Additionally, the statement was unsourced and inserted into a paragraph that was sourced, thus implying that the reference at the end of the paragraph also covered its claim. [[User:Karanacs|Karanacs]] 15:32, 17 July 2007 (UTC) |
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::I left a note about that at the top of [[#Draft 6]]; when editing to make changes, it's easier if the version being edited is first. I often had to start over, as I entered changes in the old version when trying to change the draft, so having the draft first is easier. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 21:08, 5 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Sorry, I shouldn't have peeked while multi-tasking. Sorry for clogging up the page. Will get back to it later when I can focus. [[User:Victoriaearle|Victoria]] ([[User talk:Victoriaearle|tk]]) 22:48, 5 May 2024 (UTC) |
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==== First sentence: feedback needed ==== |
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:::I agree, and would add that the statement that the other pronunciation is "regarded as incorrect in British English" is untrue. It's a ''possible'' pronunciation that is simply incorrect in the case of J.K. [[User:Exploding Boy|Exploding Boy]] 15:34, 17 July 2007 (UTC) |
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*This is a substantial improvement. I'd delete "espoused" without replacement, and I'd simplify "Beginning in" to "Since", and then I'm happyish with it.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 00:26, 6 May 2024 (UTC) |
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*:Implemented [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:J._K._Rowling&diff=prev&oldid=1222449061 beginning in --> since.]. {{pb}} On the opening sentence, now that the rest of the para gives more context (the laws and the self-identification without diagnosis), I would probably be OK with that as well, but I'll wait to hear from others before implementing that change in the draft. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 00:48, 6 May 2024 (UTC) |
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*::It reads okay without "espoused". If we keep it, suggest converting to present tense - "espouses". Lets see what others say. [[User:Victoriaearle|Victoria]] ([[User talk:Victoriaearle|tk]]) 13:29, 6 May 2024 (UTC) |
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*:::I prefer the version without "espoused", and I agree if we do keep it, it should at least be present tense. [[User:LokiTheLiar|Loki]] ([[User talk:LokiTheLiar|talk]]) 14:12, 6 May 2024 (UTC) |
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*:::Changed to present tense. On the rest, my concern is that we cite three scholarly sources who quite carefully do ''not'' label her as such, rather state that ''some'' do. Wikipedia does not lead; it follows sources. I'd feel much better about flat out labeling her if we had three scholarly sources which did that. (I've included the exact quotes from the sources; the reasons we can't label her flat out are already covered in the section just above this one, [[#"Transgender people" section should be re-titled as "Transphobia"]]. And the section name should be "Transgender rights".) [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 14:27, 6 May 2024 (UTC) |
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*:::: Followup from [[WP:BLP]]: {{tq|"Material about living persons added to {{em|any}} Wikipedia page '''must be written with the greatest care and attention''' to [[Wikipedia:Verifiability|verifiability]], [[Wikipedia:Neutral point of view|neutrality]], and [[Wikipedia:No original research|avoidance of original research]]."}} {{pb}} In the interest of moving forward, I have attempted to find a compromise ("espouses views") for this area of disagreement. I have always been willing to install content developed by consensus on talk to the article even when I disagree with that content; I can't do that in this case, as without sources, I believe the proposed changes to the first sentence breach BLP. We can't label Rowling "gender-critical" in the absence of high-quality sources that do so. The sources we have so far do not do that. {{pb}} Our options at this point are: 1) find scholarly sources labeling her outright, 2) wait for more feedback, 3) someone besides me installs the draft should consensus form to add what I believe to be a BLP breach, or 4) run an RFC (do we install before the RFC, or wait a full month to get something installed, or find an interim compromise?). [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 17:56, 6 May 2024 (UTC) |
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*:::::It's really important to be fully immersed in the sources to understand the nuances, and I'm not convinced an RFC would be helpful at this point. I'm fine with "espouses" because that's really the best that can be done with the sources. I'm wondering whether the sources support that she's outspoken? If so, can we simply say something along the lines that "Rowling has been vocal about her gender-critical beliefs". Sorry, I'm not feeling well today, so this is just brainstorming and an imperfectly framed idea and I don't have sources open to check, so feel free to ignore. P.s - thanks Sandy for the work on the talkpage - I got caught in a number of edit conflicts earlier. [[User:Victoriaearle|Victoria]] ([[User talk:Victoriaearle|tk]]) 18:22, 6 May 2024 (UTC) |
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*:::::After walking away for a bit of perspective & then re-reading this evening, "espouses" seems fine to me. [[User:Victoriaearle|Victoria]] ([[User talk:Victoriaearle|tk]]) 23:17, 7 May 2024 (UTC) |
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*Scholarly sources are written for scholars, so there are things they don't say. |
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:The sun is quite large and rather hot. But you won't find a paper in an astronomical journal that says so. The paper might give specifics of the sun's temperature at various depths, its diameter, its mass, its density or its circumference. But if you need to explain in a Wikipedia article that the sun is big and hot, scholarly sources are no good at all. Because the astronomy professors are writing for an audience that knows about stars, there are things they don't have to say and they don't waste words on. |
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:Therefore you need a source that says the sun is big and hot, you have to go to a non-academic source. |
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:But, Sandy, I want to ask you to stop and think here. If, as it seems, you can genuinely read the sources on Rowling and not think she has gender-critical views, then really, how objective are you about this?—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 00:13, 7 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::I agree with you that we shouldn't require scholarly sources specifically if we have good quality [[WP:NEWSORG]] ones. But I do sympathize somewhat with Sandy here: this is a featured article on a BLP and we do need to make sure we can clearly source everything we say about her. [[User:LokiTheLiar|Loki]] ([[User talk:LokiTheLiar|talk]]) 02:17, 7 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::Re S Marshall, the "sun is hot" analogy doesn't apply to this situation for two reasons. |
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::# We have three high-quality sources (that multiple editors seem to agree are good scholarly sources) that quite specifically are ''not silent'' on the topic, as an astronomy professor may be on whether the sun is hot. The academics we have so far ''do'' address the matter by specifically ''not'' saying that JKR is a TERF, rather they clearly state that some say she is, while others disagree. Silence on the "sun is hot" is not the situation here. |
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::# Since the sun is not a [[WP:BLP|living person]], Wikipedia doesn't have a Wikipedia policy to make sure we don't defame it. |
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::We can't use lower quality sources to refute good academic sources that we have on this matter, and Wikipedia can't be the first to say something that high quality sources, when specifically addressing the matter, have not said as far as we know. {{pb}} Re your final question, perhaps you would stop and think about whether you want to be the first editor in several years to personalize a discussion on this, or the FAR, talk page? What any of us ''thinks'' is irrelevant; our content is guided by policy and sources. If there really are no scholarly sources or academics willing to label JKR a TERF, then we should be moving forward on an alternate way to frame the first sentence; compromise should not be hard, considering there are many ways to frame the sentence. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 02:51, 7 May 2024 (UTC) |
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*::All right then. |
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:::We need one phrase that encapsulates J. K. Rowling's views on sex and gender. In draft 6, we've already decided and agreed that she: |
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:::# Opposes gender self-recognition; |
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:::# Accuses trans women of being men; |
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:::# Believes sex is real, or at least, warns of dire consequences of thinking sex isn't real; and |
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:::# Denies being transphobic. |
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:::These are of course the precise views we cover in [[Gender-critical feminism]], with a long string of academic references for the definition. But also at issue here is the law, and there's also a legal definition of what gender-critical views are, from the judgment in [https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/60c1cce1d3bf7f4bd9814e39/Maya_Forstater_v_CGD_Europe_and_others_UKEAT0105_20_JOJ.pdf Maya Forstater -v- CGD Europe & ors]. They include: ''The belief that sex is immutable and not to be conflated with gender identity...'' [which are] ''...absolutist in nature and whereby...'' [Forstater would] ''...refer to a person by the sex she considers appropriate even if it violates their dignity and/or creates an intimidating, hostile, degrading or offensive environment.'' According to the Tribunal, this is the element of gender-critical views that amounts to a protected philosophical belief. It's even more simply encapsulated (at page 3) as: ''the Claimant’s belief as to the immutability of sex''. (This is the Law of England and Wales. Unfortunately for 13tez, Maya Forstater's case isn't about Scots Law.) |
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:::Therefore, J. K. Rowling's views on sex and gender meet both the academic and legal tests for what a gender-critical belief is. QED. |
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:::The objection is that a sufficiently academic source doesn't say so. Wikipedia does have a problem with this. We use hedges like: "[Donald] Trump's political positions are viewed by some as right-wing populist" (from [[Political positions of Donald Trump]]), because to say Donald Trump is a right wing populist in wikivoice would be sooo controversial.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 08:07, 7 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::: I feel it should be pointed out that this section "[Forstater would] ''...refer to a person by the sex she considers appropriate even if it violates their dignity and/or creates an intimidating, hostile, degrading or offensive environment.''" is the Appeal Tribunal quoting the first instance judgement, and was an interpretation disputed in that appeal. The Appeal judgement found that "''On a proper reading of the Judgment, the Tribunal was stating that the Claimant would not use preferred pronouns whenever she considered it appropriate not to do so. That must mean that she would not use them where she considered it to be relevant. If that is correct, then the description “absolutist” would appear to be something of a misnomer as her position was more nuanced and context dependent''." Absolutism and an automatic rejection of preferred pronouns are not therefore part of the legal definition of the protected gender-critical belief in the UK. [[User:Daff22|Daff22]] ([[User talk:Daff22|talk]]) 11:56, 7 May 2024 (UTC) |
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==== Unnecessary attribution ? ==== |
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::::So are we just going to ignore all those people who pronounce it Rohwling? It deserves at least some mention in the article, right! Whether it's right or wrong, it's used and we cannot ignore that fact! <sub>└</sub><sup>'''[[User:Jared|<font color="#0084C9">Jared</font>]]'''</sup><sub>┘</sub><sup>┌</sup><sub>''[[User Talk:Jared|<font color="#009E49">t</font>]]''</sub><sup>┐</sup>  15:56, 17 July 2007 (UTC) |
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Re {{tq2|In an essay posted on her website in June 2020 – that Tolonda Henderson[35] and Whited state left trans people feeling betrayed[12] – Rowling said her views ... }} Could we drop the attribution, and make this just: {{tq2|In an essay posted on her website in June 2020 – that left trans people feeling betrayed[12][35] – Rowling said her views .... }} My impression is that this is a widely supported statement, so that the attribution is creating a false impression, not needed, and only clunking up the sentence. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 17:56, 6 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::Yes we can, because it is irrellevant. A large number of people think that Rowling is a Satanist and servant of the antichrist, but their opinions are not included here. Members of the John Birch Society think that Rowling is a Communist. Their opinions are not included here. Those people who pronounce her name "<s>g</s>rowling" are similarly irrellevant to Rowling's biography and can therefore be summarily excluded.[[User:Serendipodous|Serendipodous]] 16:00, 17 July 2007 (UTC) |
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*Imv: Yes, drop it.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 18:02, 6 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:I agree we can drop the attribution there. [[User:LokiTheLiar|Loki]] ([[User talk:LokiTheLiar|talk]]) 18:03, 6 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::Fine. I'm very disappointed at the lack of an attempt to negotiate here, and would have expected better of people editing as such a well-written article. However, I don't see that I will be gaining any greater footholds here, so I have changed the article so something that we can both agree is true. Maybe I'll address my concern at a later time, but for now, I find it unfortunate that, though I have cited numerous instances where my reasoning has been precedented and correct, not one person here can see where I'm coming from. I wish everyone the best of luck editing here. <sub>└</sub><sup>'''[[User:Jared|<font color="#0084C9">Jared</font>]]'''</sup><sub>┘</sub><sup>┌</sup><sub>''[[User Talk:Jared|<font color="#009E49">t</font>]]''</sub><sup>┐</sup>  16:05, 17 July 2007 (UTC)] |
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::[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:J._K._Rowling&diff=prev&oldid=1222643520 Done], [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 02:55, 7 May 2024 (UTC) |
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==== Thoughts from Scientelensia==== |
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Jared, please note that there is a very big difference in what someone's name is (i.e., what are the words) and how that name is pronounced. There is also a huge difference in what the appropriate pronunciation of a WORD is and how to pronounce the NAME. Just because British English leans towards pronouncing Rowling like bowling doesn't mean she would have to pronounce it that way. There is no need in explaining why her family pronounces their name the way they do. As for her name, when Harry Potter was originally released some news reports actually reported that Kathleen was part of her name; they did not report that her name was pronounced a different way. That is why one is included here and one is not. Please '''do not''' add information into the article until gaining consensus. At this point, the consensus among the editors of this page is not to include information on incorrect pronunciations. [[User:Karanacs|Karanacs]] 21:19, 17 July 2007 (UTC) |
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Regarding this part: “In April 2024, responding to Scotland's Hate Crime and Public Order Act, she tweeted a list of trans women, writing that they are "men, every last one of them".” |
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* Could it be changed to this (or a shorter version of it)? “After the [[Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Act 2021]] had come into force in April 2024, Rowling, who resides in Edinburgh, took to [[X (social network)|X]] to criticise the bill, stating that "freedom of speech and belief" was at an end if accurate description of biological sex was outlawed. She further posted a list of transgender women, and wrote that they were "men, every last one of them".<ref>{{Cite web|url=https://deadline.com/2024/04/jk-rowling-scotland-hate-crime-law-1235872981/|title=J.K. Rowling Mocks Trans Women To Defy Scotland's New Hate Crime Law: "I Look Forward To Being Arrested"|website=deadline.com|access-date=3 April 2024|archive-date=1 April 2024|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20240401190451/https://deadline.com/2024/04/jk-rowling-scotland-hate-crime-law-1235872981/|url-status=live}}</ref> Rowling also said: "Scottish lawmakers seem to have placed higher value on the feelings of men performing their idea of femaleness, however misogynistically or opportunistically, than on the rights and freedoms of actual women and girls."<ref>{{cite web |title= JK Rowling in ‘arrest me’ challenge over hate crime law |url= https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c51j64lk2l8o |website=BBC News |access-date=8 April 2024 |date=1 April 2024}}</ref>” |
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My main criticsm of this draft (though it is much better than before) is that: |
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* The actors who didn’t support Rowling are in the main text, the others are merely a note. I understand the difference between main and supporting actors, but it does seem that those who oppose Rowling are being given more prominence. Intentions could be misconstrued. As for scholarly sources (which Sandy Georgia wanted; these are surely adequate I hope):<ref name=FiennesSupport>{{cite web|title= Ralph Fiennes: Verbal abuse directed at JK Rowling is disgusting and appalling |url= https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/10/24/ralph-fiennes-verbal-abuse-directed-jk-rowling-disgusting-appalling/ |publisher=[[The Daily Telegraph|The Telegraph]] |date=24 October 2022 |access-date=13 December 2022 |url-status=live}}</ref><ref name=BonhamCarterSupport>{{cite web|title= 'It's horrendous': Helena Bonham Carter defends JK Rowling and Johnny Depp |url= https://www.theguardian.com/film/2022/nov/28/helena-bonham-carter-defends-jk-rowling-and-johnny-depp |work=The Guardian |date=28 October 2022 |access-date=30 November 2022 |url-status=live}}</ref><ref name=SupportMargolyes>{{cite web|title= JK Rowling: Miriam Margolyes says anger at Harry Potter author over trans views has been 'misplaced' |url= https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/news/miriam-margolyes-jk-rowling-trans-b2060541.html |work=The Independent |date=19 April 2022 |access-date=16 December 2022 |url-status=live}}</ref><ref name=SupportColtrane>{{cite web|title= Robbie Coltrane says JK Rowling transphobia critics ‘hang around waiting to be offended’ |url= https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/news/robbie-coltrane-jk-rowling-transphobic-tweet-hagrid-troubled-blood-b445069.html |work=The Independent |access-date=7 May 2024 |url-status=live}}</ref> (for example). From Scientelensia (17:47, May 7, 2024) |
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* Another main criticism is that this paragraph… |
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: Fans turned away from her work, boycotted events, and publishers hesitated to accept her work. Criticism came from the Harry Potter fansites MuggleNet and The Leaky Cauldron, and LGBT charities Mermaids, Stonewall, and Human Rights Campaign. GLAAD called Rowling's comments "cruel" and "inaccurate". Leading actors of the Wizarding World spoke out against her stance; Daniel Radcliffe, Emma Watson, Rupert Grint, Eddie Redmayne and others declared support for the transgender community. After Kerry Kennedy expressed "profound disappointment" in her views, Rowling returned the Ripple of Hope Award given to her by the Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights organisation. |
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: …almost wholly only lists critics from organisations. No support for her has been mentioned at all, which arguably displays bias as there was a lot of support for her also. From Scientelensia (20:04, May 7, 2024) |
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* The last paragraph also fails to mention any praise for JK Rowling’s essay; only criticism. Only the views of trans people are considered. See for example: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-55350905. From Scientelensia (20:08, May 7, 2024) |
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{{reflist-talk}} |
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==== Thoughts from Victoria ==== |
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:I've reverted Jared's change again. You seem to be pretty familiar with Wiki Policies so I'm sure you know that what you're doing is against established consensus and hence liable for repeated and imminent reversion? This also includes your attempt to dilute the correctness of the pronunciation by changing the para from 'Rowling's surname is pronounced' to 'Rowling pronounces her surname', that's dangerously similar to using [[WP:WEASEL|weasel words]]. <b>[[User:AulaTPN|<font color="#89f">A</font><font color="#78e">u</font><font color="#67d">l</font><font color="#56c">a</font>]][[User talk:AulaTPN|<sup><font color="#45b">T</font><font color="#34a">P</font><font color="#239">N</font></sup>]]</b> 21:56, 17 July 2007 (UTC) |
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A couple of thoughts to keep things moving. |
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*First, there's been a sustained effort to improve what's currently in the article & in my view that's a Good Thing. Pats on the back all around! |
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*Second, re first sentence. What we have is honestly fine. There are other options too. I'm not convinced that [[Wikipedia:CONTROVERSY]] applies - it's an essay about articles rather than about one section in an BLP. Following that line of thought, then we can write something like Rowling's remarks/comments (pick the word) have been/are controversial. This [https://www.glamour.com/story/a-complete-breakdown-of-the-jk-rowling-transgender-comments-controversy Glamour article] (very long) has been continually updated for a number of years & is cited by a number of the literary critics. The verbiage they use is that J.K. Rowling has come "under fire" for controversial tweets (not verbatim, but very very close). We should either stick with the first sentence as written in Draft 6 or consider rewriting along the lines of the controversial tweets verbiage. |
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*Third, re scholarly sources: Rowling is a productive writer - something like 20 works in 25 years - and the reason this article exists is because of her writing career. Because she's a writer, literary critics do what literary critics do - hence scholarly sources. For this topic in Rowling's bio, those sources simply distill news sources and are now the desired secondary sources. |
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*Fourth, I think Scientelensia raises points that are maybe worth considering. Back when we were discussing Draft 3 it became clear that draft had veered into discussing what others were saying about Rowling, rather than what Rowling says/believes. To veer back, we might consider trimming or even cutting the text in the third para beginning from "Criticism came from the Harry Potter fansites ... " possibly to the end of the paragraph. If so, the text can focus on Rowling & there'd be fewer words. |
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Personally, I think we're almost there. In fact, I think we could take the "it's good enough" route and say that Draft 6 is good to go. What do others think? [[User:Victoriaearle|Victoria]] ([[User talk:Victoriaearle|tk]]) 23:22, 8 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:My general thoughts are that while there are things I'd change if I could write it entirely myself, I think that Draft 6 is basically fine and I'm not that interested in getting in a big fight about what are essentially small quibbles. [[User:LokiTheLiar|Loki]] ([[User talk:LokiTheLiar|talk]]) 23:41, 8 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::I'll end it like this: I shouldn't need consensus to make an edit fully cited and appropriate to the context of the article. Even still, I came to the talk page out of my common courtesy to alert other editors of my future change. If the only viable reason here for not including the most common pronunciation world-wide for her name is because it may suggest that it is "OK" to use (which it truly is, anyway) then I am deeply disheartened at the lack of thought put into this discussion. Look, people come to this page to gain information. Why should we leave anything out? Whether it's right or wrong, but yet still pertinent to the topic, still include the information, just say why it's right or wrong; simple as that. |
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:I'm concerned that the proposal has veered into non-neutral territory by overfocusing on one academic writer (Whited) rather than a [[WP:WIAFA|thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature]]. A survey of the entire literature would not have seen us drop the one sentence in the article that is [[WP:RECENTISM|most likely to endure beyond what any Hollywood star said or thinks]]. "Her statements have divided feminists; fuelled debates on freedom of speech, academic freedom and cancel culture ... " and more). But this is not a hill worth dying on; I wouldn't mind if we install and move on, but if I had my druthers we'd move the list of all actors and organizations to footnotes (who is surprised at the list of charities?), and restore and expand instead the content that will endure beyond Hollywood -- that is, the overall and lasting cultural effects of the whole brouhaha as reflected in a variety of scholarly sources. A thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature produces scholarly analyses of linguistics, hate speech, fandom, feminism, women's rights, trans rights, etc -- much more than passing opinions of Radcliffe, Watson and anyone else who spends the GDP of a small country to attend the Met Gala. I don't think the draft is POV enough to tag it as such, the POV is subtle, and I won't protest if it goes in, but somewhere along the way, neutrality was dropped in the content that was excised. My solution is different than Scientelensia's; rather than add in those who support her, delete all of that recentism, and focus on a survey of the literature and the broader issues raised. But if someone wants to install now, I won't object. I still believe the section heading should be "Transgender rights". I don't think Draft 6 is FA material, but the rest of the article is, so neither do I think a FAR is in order; it's good enough, but won't endure. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 01:25, 9 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::Your solution would work also, but there would also have to be rigorous testing to ensure that the selection of literary works constitutes an unbiased interpretation. [[User:Scientelensia|Scientelensia]] ([[User talk:Scientelensia|talk]]) 16:19, 9 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::1. Looking back at Victoria's fourth point, I agree; that's where in my view most precious real estate (word count) is misspent on excess detail, and trimming that would give us room to work back in some neutrality and replace some RECENTISM with enduring content. {{tq2|Criticism came from the Harry Potter fansites MuggleNet and The Leaky Cauldron, and LGBT charities Mermaids, Stonewall, and Human Rights Campaign. GLAAD called Rowling's comments "cruel" and "inaccurate". Leading actors of the Wizarding World spoke out against her stance; Daniel Radcliffe, Emma Watson, Rupert Grint, Eddie Redmayne and others declared support for the transgender community. }} could become {{tq2|Criticism came from Harry Potter fansites, LGBT charities, and leading actors of the Wizarding World.}} by moving the detail to a footnote. That word count could be better used on more enduring issues. |
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:::2. Whited may have said this, but here's where neutrality is particularly lost: {{tq|"Fans turned away from her work, boycotted events, and publishers hesitated to accept her work."}} In fact, book sales increased, Universal Studios is expanding Harry Potter World, a TV series is in the works, Maya Forstater was exonerated, etc ... so while the statement is true to some extent and for many people, it's factually inaccurate in terms of leaving out the big picture, and redundant to territory already covered in the first point above. Dropping the sentence is an alternative to discuss. |
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:::3. Looking back at [[Talk:J._K._Rowling#Fourth_draft|Draft 4]] reveals the problem with trying to write an encyclopedic entry with topic sentences: doing so can result in a POV construction that leads the reader (I forget which article is on a record number of [[WP:FAC|FACs]] for this very problem, which has proven insurmountable). Grouping like content logically by paragraphs avoids wasting wordcount in ways that risk leading the reader or telling the reader what a paragraph is about; just the facts, and let the reader make their own decision. |
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:::4. I agree with Scientelensia that the sentence {{tq|she tweeted a list of trans women, writing that they are "men, every last one of them"}} needs a few more clauses for context and relevance, although I wouldn't take as many words as Scientelensia suggests. |
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:::5. And after doing that wordcount reduction, use the gained space to rework and update the enduring content based on [[WP:WIAFA|a survey of the literature]], which was: {{tq|Her statements have divided feminists; fuelled debates on freedom of speech and cancel culture; and prompted declarations of support for transgender people from the literary, arts and culture sectors}} ... we seem to have lost academic freedom, and there's plenty of scholarly literature on how fandom has evolved, and the power of Twitter. |
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:::We could put in Draft 6 now, but it is POV and we'll be back here in less than two years to repair the damage we inflicted. {{u|Victoriaearle}} I had my turn; are you interested in working up Draft 7 ?[[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 16:55, 9 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::::PS, my separate and growing concern is that none of the three main FA authors have shown up to update the rest of the article to reflect Whited 2024, so if that doesn't happen, we're likely to end up at [[WP:FAR|FAR]] anyway. I think we made a mistake in over-relying on Whited for transgender content, but she certainly should be used for updating literary content. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 16:58, 9 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::::@[[User:SandyGeorgia|SandyGeorgia]] You suggest {{!xt|Criticism came from Harry Potter fansites, LGBT charities, and leading actors of the Wizarding World.}}, but that implies (to me) all "leading" actors, which isn't true. Either define "leading actors", or quantify with "most", "some", etc. [[User:Bazza_7|Bazza <span style="color:grey">7</span>]] ([[User_talk:Bazza_7|talk]]) 21:13, 9 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::Yep, I wasn't trying to wordsmith the thing yet ... just give the broad points I'd do if we started over. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 21:23, 9 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::{{u|SandyGeorgia|Sandy}} please excuse my brevity, but I'm not at all able at this time. Will get back here when able. Sorry. [[User:Victoriaearle|Victoria]] ([[User talk:Victoriaearle|tk]]) 23:27, 9 May 2024 (UTC) |
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===Draft 6.3=== |
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::I was never trying to dilute anything here. I only wanted to ensure that there was no POV pushing, and saying "Rowling's name is pronounced" is a blatant command and a poor phrase in an expository article, if you ask me. |
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Since I agree that all of Sandy's proposed elisions improve the text, I've made them. I've made no effort to add the suggested new content, and I view cutting words as more important.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 16:31, 10 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::I'm a member of a WikiProject and I know that while my colleagues and I [[WP:OLYMPICS|there]] like to do things our way, we are always open to suggestions and changes to our "norms" and express this on a regular basis. It may seem like I'm preaching to you, but from experience (and not that long of experience, actually), I know how to handle suggestions to edit pages differently. And I know that if pages edits are handled like the one above, this article will never progress. (Just look at the fact that the article is 90% about Harry Potter, for example.) |
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! style="width: 30em;" | Draft 6.3: 403 words |
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! style="width: 30em;" | Historical: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=J._K._Rowling&oldid=1202117364#Transgender_people 429 words] |
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::I hope that you all at least saw where I was coming from, and hope that in the future, claims can be handled in a more cooperative manner. I would rather not clutter this talk page with more talk about this, so if you have additional concerns or comments, drop me a note on my talk page or e-mail me through Wikipedia. <sub>└</sub><sup>'''[[User:Jared|<font color="#0084C9">Jared</font>]]'''</sup><sub>┘</sub><sup>┌</sup><sub>''[[User Talk:Jared|<font color="#009E49">t</font>]]''</sub><sup>┐</sup>  02:43, 18 July 2007 (UTC) |
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:::It's quite simple: her name is pronounced to rhyme with rolling; you can pronounce it other ways, and maybe other people will understand you, but that is not her name. Similarly, you could spell her name 'Rolling', and people might understand you, but her name is not spelt 'Rolling'. That is not her name. I could call you 'Shareed', and maybe people would know who I was referring to, but that wouldn't make it your username; your username is not spelt like that. It's not even an accent thing, since Americans and Britons are quite capable of saying 'rolling'. On top of this, the only cite you provided for the claim that she finds the other pronunciation acceptable was rather dubious compared to the cites for how her name is actually pronounced. Anyway, better luck next time :) [[User:Skittle|Skittle]] 01:55, 19 July 2007 (UTC) |
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Rowling has ''[some contributors want to add a qualifier here]'' [[Feminist views on transgender topics#Gender-critical feminism and trans-exclusionary radical feminism|gender-critical]] views.{{sfn|Whited|2024|loc= p. 7. "But in June 2020, Rowling's manifesto led some people to label her as a trans-exclusionary radical feminist (TERF), a term first used in 2008 that has more recently evolved as 'gender critical'."}}{{sfn|Steinfeld|2020|loc= pp. 34–35. "Just ask JK Rowling and other women who have been labelled as Terfs"}}{{sfn|Schwirblat|Freberg|Freberg|2022|loc= pp. 367–368. "This sparked a heated discussion within the Twitter community, one side buttressing Rowling's statements, and the other espousing her as a trans-exclusionary radical feminist (TERF)"}} She resists proposed changes to UK law that would make it simpler to transition without a medical diagnosis. She is concerned that easier transitions could affect access to female-only spaces and legal protections for women.<ref name= Milne2020>{{cite web|first1= Amber |last1=Milne|first2 = Rachel| last2 =Savage | url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-lgbt-rowling-explainer-trfn-idUSKBN23I3AI | title=Explainer: J. K. Rowling and trans women in single-sex spaces: what's the furore? | publisher=[[Reuters]] | date=11 June 2020 | access-date=6 April 2021 }}</ref><ref name= Brooks2020>{{Cite news|last=Brooks|first=Libby|date=11 June 2020|title=Why is JK Rowling speaking out now on sex and gender debate? |url= http://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/jun/11/why-is-jk-rowling-speaking-out-now-on-sex-and-gender-debate|access-date=14 January 2022 |work= [[The Guardian]] }}</ref><ref name=Kottasova2019>{{cite news |title= J.K. Rowling's 'transphobia' tweet row spotlights a fight between equality campaigners and radical feminists |first1= Ivana |last1= Kottasová |first2= Scottie |last2= Andrew |publisher= [[CNN]] |date= 20 December 2019|url= https://edition.cnn.com/2019/12/20/uk/jk-rowling-transgender-explainer-intl-gbr/index.html |access-date= 5 May 2024}}</ref>{{efn|The laws and proposed changes are the UK [[Gender Recognition Act 2004]] and the Scotland [[Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill|Gender Recognition Reform Bill]]; related also are the UK [[Equality Act 2010]]{{sfn|Pedersen|2022|loc=Abstract}}{{sfn|Suissa|Sullivan|2021|pp=66–69}}{{sfn|Duggan|2021|loc=PDF pp. 14–15 (160–161)}} and the Scotland Gender Representation on Public Boards Act of 2018.<ref>{{cite news |last1=Watson |first1=Jeremy |title=JK Rowling donates £70k for legal challenge on defining a woman |date=18 February 2024 |url=https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/jk-rowling-donates-70k-for-legal-challenge-on-defining-a-woman-73tkvwq0b |work=[[The Times]] |access-date=5 May 2024|archive-url=https://archive.today/20240217200104/https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/jk-rowling-donates-70k-for-legal-challenge-on-defining-a-woman-73tkvwq0b |archive-date=17 February 2024 |url-status=live |url-access=subscription}}</ref>}} She opposes gender self-recognition{{sfn|Whited|2024|p=7}}<ref name=BacksProtest>{{cite news |title= JK Rowling backs protest over Scottish gender bill |date= 6 October 2022|url= https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-63162533 |publisher= [[BBC News]] |access-date= 5 May 2024}}</ref>{{efn|Rowling wrote in 2020: "The current explosion of trans activism is urging a removal of almost all the robust systems through which candidates for sex reassignment were once required to pass. A man who intends to have no surgery and take no hormones may now secure himself a Gender Recognition Certificate and be a woman in the sight of the law."<ref name=RowlingReasons/>}} and suggests that children and [[cisgender]] women are threatened by trans women and trans-positive messages.{{sfn|Duggan|2021|p=161}} In April 2024, responding to [[Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Act 2021|Scotland's Hate Crime and Public Order Act]], she tweeted a list of trans women, writing that they are "men, every last one of them".<ref name=Brooks2024>{{cite news |last1=Brooks |first1=Libby |title=JK Rowling’s posts on X will not be recorded as non-crime hate incident |url=https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/apr/03/jk-rowling-comments-scotland-non-crime-hate-incident |work=[[The Guardian]] |date=3 April 2024 |access-date= 3 May 2024}}</ref> |
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::::This is entirely ridiculous! I don't know what the Hell the original poster is talking about, but I have never '''''EVER''''' heard anyone here in the U.S. pronounce her name "rohwling". Everyone here says "rolling", it's not just a British thing, so we should just finds another way to paraphrase it. ''Any'' mention of a different "American pronunciation" should be taken out ''immediately'', as the majority of us say it the same way as the rest of the world. It shouldn't be taken completely out of the article, however, as anyone who ''doesn't'' know how to pronounce her name will. [[User:Therequiembellishere|Therequiembellishere]] 03:38, 31 July 2007 (UTC) |
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Hilarious. Do you correct people if they pronounce your name wrong? It's an encyclopedia and should only list how the name is properly pronounced, i.e. how she pronounces it. Or shall we mention that the Japanese might pronounce it as "ro-ree-n-gu" and explain how those with speech impediments might pronounce it? Jesus Christ. Yeah, tons of people pronounce it "rohwling," and not only in the U.S. -- but it's not even a matter of varying accents as you're trying to suggest ("Hahree Pawtah"), it's a matter of ignorance. :) And when the holy crap did she ever say she "accepts" the "American" (more accurately called "ignorant") way of pronouncing her name? Not that I think Jo would pummel someone for mispronouncing her name -- I just find it funny that you're flippin' over this, yet have no problem with writing Jo's biography Rita Skeeter style. :D --[[User:70.55.39.170|70.55.39.170]] 03:56, 7 August 2007 (UTC) |
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Friction over Rowling's gender-critical writings surged in 2019 when she defended [[Maya Forstater]].{{sfn|Whited|2024|pp=6-8}} When Forstater's employment contract with the [[Center for Global Development]] was not renewed after Forstater shared gender-critical views,{{sfn|Pugh|2020|p=7}} Rowling wrote that trans people should live in "peace and security", but questioned women being "force[d] out of their jobs for stating that sex is real".<ref name=Stack2019/>{{efn|A tribunal ruled in 2021 that Forstater's gender-critical views were protected under the 2010 UK [[Equality Act 2010|Equality Act]].<ref name=Faulkner2021>{{cite news |first= Doug |last= Faulkner |url= https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-57426579 |title= Maya Forstater: woman wins tribunal appeal over transgender tweets |publisher= [[BBC News]] |date= 10 June 2021 |access-date= 26 March 2022}}</ref><ref name=Siddique2021>{{cite news |first= Haroon |last= Siddique |date= 10 June 2021 |title= Gender-critical views are a protected belief, appeal tribunal rules|url= https://www.theguardian.com/law/2021/jun/10/gender-critical-views-protected-belief-appeal-tribunal-rules-maya-forstater |work= [[The Guardian]] |access-date= 26 March 2022}}</ref>{{sfn|Pape|2022|p=230}} In July 2022, a new tribunal decision was published (''[[Forstater v Center for Global Development Europe]]'') ruling that Forstater had suffered direct discrimination from her employer.<ref>{{cite news |title=Maya Forstater: Woman discriminated against over trans tweets, tribunal rules|date=6 July 2022 |url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-62061929 |publisher=[[BBC News]] |access-date=6 July 2022}}</ref>}} According to ''Harry Potter'' scholar Lana Whited, in the next six months "Rowling herself fanned the flames as she became increasingly vocal".{{sfn|Whited|2024|p=6}} In June 2020,{{sfn|Whited|2024|p=6}} Rowling mocked the phrase "[[people who menstruate]]",<ref name=Gross2020>{{Cite news|last=Gross|first=Jenny|date=7 June 2020|title=Daniel Radcliffe criticizes J.K. Rowling's anti-transgender tweets|work=[[The New York Times]]|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/07/arts/Jk-Rowling-controversy.html |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200607221400/https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/07/arts/Jk-Rowling-controversy.html |archive-date=7 June 2020 |url-access=subscription |url-status=live|access-date=6 January 2022 }}</ref> and tweeted that [[women's rights]] and "lived reality" would be "erased" if "sex isn't real".{{sfn|Duggan|2021|pp=14–15}}{{sfn|Pugh|2020|p=7}} |
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Rowling's views have impacted her reputation. As her thoughts on the [[legal status of transgender people]] came under scrutiny,{{sfn|Suissa|Sullivan|2021|pp=66–69}} she received insults and threats{{sfn|Suissa|Sullivan|2021|p=69}}{{sfn|Whited|2024|p=9}} and discussion moved beyond the Twitter community.{{sfn|Schwirblat|Freberg|Freberg|2022|p=368}} While her remarks provoked condemnation,{{sfn|Duggan|2021|loc=PDF pp. 14–15 (160–161)}}{{sfn|Schwirblat|Freberg|Freberg|2022|pp=367–369}}{{sfn|Pape|2022|pp=229–230, 238}} sales of ''Harry Potter'' books grew during the [[COVID-19]] lockdown.{{sfn|Pape|2022|p=238}}<ref> {{cite news |first=Mark |last= Sweney |title= Harry Potter books prove UK lockdown hit despite JK Rowling trans rights row |work= [[The Guardian]] |date= 21 July 2020 |url= https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jul/21/jk-rowling-book-sales-unaffected-by-transgender-views-row |access-date= 3 May 2024}}</ref> Criticism came from Harry Potter fansites, LGBT charities, and leading actors of the Wizarding World.{{sfn|Henderson|2022|p=224}}<ref name=Petter2020>{{Cite web|last= Petter|first=Olivia|date=17 September 2020|title=Mermaids writes open letter to JK Rowling following her recent comments on trans people|url=https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/mermaids-jk-rowling-transphobia-transgender-sexual-abuse-domestic-letter-a9565176.html|access-date=26 March 2022|work=[[The Independent]] |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200615235531/https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/mermaids-jk-rowling-transphobia-transgender-sexual-abuse-domestic-letter-a9565176.html |archive-date=15 June 2020}}</ref><ref>{{cite news | url=https://www.newstatesman.com/long-reads/2021/11/the-battle-for-stonewall-the-lgbt-charity-and-the-uks-gender-wars | title=The battle for Stonewall: the LGBT charity and the UK's gender wars | work=[[New Statesman]]|first=Gaby |last=Hinsliff|date=3 November 2021 | access-date=24 November 2021}}</ref> and [[Human Rights Campaign]].<ref name= Milne2020/><ref name=AP7June2020>{{cite news |title= JK Rowling's tweets on transgender people spark outrage |date= 7 June 2020 |url= https://apnews.com/article/entertainment-jk-rowling-us-news-media-7338b2b262090c00f04deafe2e6689c2 |publisher= [[Associated Press]] |access-date= 4 May 2024}}</ref><ref name=Waterson2020>{{Cite news|last= Waterson |first= Jim|title= Children's news website apologises to JK Rowling over trans tweet row|url= https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jul/23/childrens-news-website-apologises-jk-rowling-trans-tweet-day|date= 23 July 2020 |access-date=26 March 2022|work=[[The Guardian]] |quote= Rowling's comments on gender were condemned by LGBT charities and the leading stars of her Harry Potter film franchise.}}</ref><ref name=Lang2020>{{cite magazine |last=Lang |first=Brent |title= Eddie Redmayne criticizes J.K. Rowling's anti-trans tweets |date= 10 June 2020 |url= https://variety.com/2020/film/news/eddie-redmayne-jk-rowling-anti-trans-tweets-harry-potter-fantastic-beasts-1234630226/ |magazine= [[Variety (magazine)|Variety]]|access-date=28 March 2022 |quote= Eddie Redmayne, star of the ''Fantastic Beasts'' franchise, is speaking out against J.K. Rowling's anti-trans tweets, as the controversy surrounding the author and her beliefs continues to swirl.}}</ref> After [[Kerry Kennedy]] expressed "profound disappointment" in her views, Rowling returned the [[Ripple of Hope Award]] given to her by the Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights organisation.<ref name=RFKAward>{{cite news |last=Flood|first=Alison |url= https://amp.theguardian.com/books/2020/aug/28/jk-rowling-robert-f-kennedy-human-rights-award-trans-views|title=JK Rowling returns human rights award to group that denounces her trans views |work=[[The Guardian]]|date=28 August 2020|access-date=28 August 2020}}</ref> |
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Could we get the talk page on the same name as the article page is on, please? <sub>└</sub><sup>'''[[User:Jared|<font color="#0084C9">Jared</font>]]'''</sup><sub>┘</sub><sup>┌</sup><sub>''[[User Talk:Jared|<font color="#009E49">t</font>]]''</sub><sup>┐</sup>  18:45, 18 July 2007 (UTC) |
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Rowling rejects these characterisations and denies being transphobic.<ref name=RowlingReasons>{{cite web|title=J.K. Rowling writes about her reasons for speaking out on sex and gender issues |url=https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/ |publisher=JK Rowling |date=10 June 2020 |access-date=10 June 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200610182056/https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/ |archive-date=10 June 2020 |url-status=live}}</ref><ref name= Dismisses>{{cite news |title= JK Rowling dismisses backlash over trans comments: 'I don't care about my legacy' |date= 22 February 2023|url= https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-64729304 |publisher= [[BBC News]] |access-date= 3 May 2024}}</ref> In an essay posted on her website in June 2020 – which left trans people feeling betrayed{{sfn|Whited|2024|p=7}}{{sfn|Henderson|2022|p=224}} – Rowling said her views on women's rights sprang from survivorship of domestic abuse and [[sexual assault]].{{sfn|Duggan|2021|pp=160–161)}}<ref name=Shirbon2020>{{cite news |last1=Shirbon |first1=Estelle |title=J.K. Rowling reveals past abuse and defends right to speak on trans issues |url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-rowling/j-k-rowling-reveals-past-abuse-and-defends-right-to-speak-on-trans-issues-idUSKBN23H2XI |publisher=[[Reuters]] |date=10 June 2020 |access-date=13 June 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200611200348/https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-rowling/j-k-rowling-reveals-past-abuse-and-defends-right-to-speak-on-trans-issues-idUSKBN23H2XI |archive-date=11 June 2020 |url-status=live}}</ref> While affirming that "the majority of trans-identified people not only pose zero threat to others, but are vulnerable ... Trans people need and deserve protection", she wrote that it would be unsafe to allow "any man who believes or feels he's a woman" into bathrooms or changing rooms.<ref name= Shirbon2020/><ref>{{cite news |last1=Gonzalez |first1=Sandra |title=J.K. Rowling explains her gender identity views in essay amid backlash |url=https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/10/entertainment/jk-rowling/index.html |access-date=16 September 2023 |publisher=[[CNN]] |date=10 June 2020}}</ref><ref>{{cite news |last1=Garrand |first1=Danielle |title=J.K. Rowling defends herself after accusations of making 'anti-trans' comments on Twitter |url=https://www.cbsnews.com/news/j-k-rowling-defends-anti-trans-comments-twitter/ |access-date=16 September 2023 |publisher=[[CBS News]] |date=11 June 2020}}</ref> Whited asserted in 2024 that Rowling's sometimes "flippant" and "simplistic understanding of gender identity" had permanently changed her "relationship not only with fans, readers, and scholars ... but also with her works themselves".{{sfn|Whited|2024|pp=6, 8–9}} |
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:Yup. [[User:Mr. panadol]] incorrectly moved the article and its talk page from [[J. K. Rowling]] to [[Joanne Rowling]]. [[User:Exploding Boy]] then attempted to revert that change, as per [[WP:NAME]], by moving back but accidentally moved the pages to [[J.K. Rowling]]. The article was subsequently re-moved & redirected but not the talk page. The change is now working it's way through the [[WP:RM#Uncontroversial_proposals|Requested Moves]] process. <b>[[User:AulaTPN|<font color="#89f">A</font><font color="#78e">u</font><font color="#67d">l</font><font color="#56c">a</font>]][[User talk:AulaTPN|<sup><font color="#45b">T</font><font color="#34a">P</font><font color="#239">N</font></sup>]]</b> 22:39, 18 July 2007 (UTC) |
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Rowling's responses to proposed changes to UK gender recognition laws,<ref name= Milne2020>{{cite web|first1= Amber |last1=Milne|first2 = Rachel| last2 =Savage | url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-lgbt-rowling-explainer-trfn-idUSKBN23I3AI | title=Explainer: J. K. Rowling and trans women in single-sex spaces: what's the furore? | publisher=[[Reuters]] | date=11 June 2020 | access-date=6 April 2021 }}</ref><ref name= Brooks2020>{{Cite news|last=Brooks|first=Libby|date=11 June 2020|title=Why is JK Rowling speaking out now on sex and gender debate? |url= http://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/jun/11/why-is-jk-rowling-speaking-out-now-on-sex-and-gender-debate|access-date=14 January 2022 |work= [[The Guardian]] }}</ref>{{efn|The UK laws and proposed changes are the [[Gender Recognition Act 2004]], the [[Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill]] and the related [[Equality Act 2010]].{{sfn|Pedersen|2022|loc=Abstract}}{{sfn|Suissa|Sullivan|2021|pp=66–69}}{{sfn|Duggan|2021|loc=PDF pp. 14–15 (160–161)}} }} and her views on [[sexual identity|sex]] and [[gender identity|gender]], have provoked controversy.{{sfn|Duggan|2021|loc=PDF pp. 14–15 (160–161)}} Her statements have divided [[Feminist views on transgender topics|feminists]];<ref name=Kottasova2019>{{cite news |first1= Ivana |last1= Kottasová |first2= Scottie | last2= Andrew|title= J.K. Rowling's 'transphobia' tweet row spotlights a fight between equality campaigners and radical feminists |publisher= [[CNN]] |date= 20 December 2019 |access-date= 29 March 2022 | url= https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/20/uk/jk-rowling-transgender-explainer-intl-gbr/index.html}}</ref><ref name=BBC2020JKRResponds>{{cite news |url= https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-53002557 |publisher= [[BBC News]] |title= JK Rowling responds to trans tweets criticism |date= 11 June 2020 |access-date= 29 March 2022}}</ref><ref>{{cite news | url=https://www.newstatesman.com/international/2020/09/judith-butler-culture-wars-jk-rowling-and-living-anti-intellectual-times | title=Judith Butler on the culture wars, JK Rowling and living in 'anti-intellectual times'|first=Alona |last=Ferber | work=[[New Statesman]] | date=22 September 2020 | access-date=26 March 2021}}</ref> fuelled<!-- This article uses British spelling --> debates on [[freedom of speech]],{{sfn|Pape|2022|pp=229–230}}<ref>{{cite web|title=BBC nominates J.K.Rowling's controversial essay of trans rights for award|url=https://www.dw.com/en/bbc-nominates-jk-rowlings-controversial-essay-on-trans-rights-for-award/a-56014673|website=[[DW News]]|date=22 December 2020|access-date=22 December 2020}}</ref> [[academic freedom]]{{sfn|Suissa|Sullivan|2021|pp=66–69}} and [[cancel culture]];{{sfn|Schwirblat|Freberg|Freberg|2022|pp=367–369}} and prompted declarations of [[Transgender rights movement|support for transgender people]] from the literary,<ref>UK, US, Canada, Ireland: {{cite news |last= Flood |first= Alison |date=9 October 2020|title= Stephen King, Margaret Atwood and Roxane Gay champion trans rights in open letter|url= https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/oct/09/stephen-king-margaret-atwood-roxane-gay-champion-trans-rights-open-letter-jk-rowling |work= [[The Guardian]] |access-date= 2 April 2022}}</ref> arts<ref>{{cite magazine|last= Rowley |first= Glenn |title= Artists fire back at J.K. Rowling's anti-trans remarks, share messages in support of the community|url= https://www.billboard.com/culture/pride/artists-fire-back-jk-rowling-anti-trans-remarks-9400386/|magazine= [[Billboard (magazine)|Billboard]]|date= 11 June 2020 |access-date= 7 April 2022}}</ref> and culture sectors.<ref>Culture sector: |
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* [[Universal Destinations & Experiences]], [[Warner Bros.]] and [[Scholastic Corporation]]: {{cite news |last1= Siegel |first1= Tatiana |last2= Abramovitch |first2= Seth |date= 10 June 2020 |title= Universal Parks responds to J.K. Rowling tweets: 'Our core values include diversity, inclusion and respect' |work= [[The Hollywood Reporter]] |url= https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/lifestyle/lifestyle-news/universal-parks-responds-jk-rowling-tweets-core-values-include-diversity-inclusion-respect-1297845/ |access-date= 3 April 2022|ref=none}} |
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* [[Warner Bros. Interactive Entertainment]] president: {{cite news |last= Skrebels |first= Joe |title= WB Interactive president responds to ongoing debate over supporting JK Rowling |date=1 October 2020 |url= https://www.ign.com/articles/wb-interactive-president-responds-to-ongoing-debate-over-supporting-jk-rowling |publisher= [[IGN]] |access-date= 2 April 2022|ref=none}}</ref> |
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When [[Maya Forstater]]'s employment contract with the London branch of the [[Center for Global Development]] was not renewed after she tweeted [[Feminist views on transgender topics#Gender-critical feminism and trans-exclusionary radical feminism|gender-critical views]],{{sfn|Pugh|2020|p=7}}<ref name=Stack2019>{{Cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/19/world/europe/jk-rowling-maya-forstater-transgender.html|title=J.K. Rowling criticized after tweeting support for anti-transgender researcher|last=Stack|first=Liam|date=19 December 2019|work=[[The New York Times]]|access-date=13 June 2020| url-access=registration|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200613012737/https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/19/world/europe/jk-rowling-maya-forstater-transgender.html|archive-date=13 June 2020|url-status=live}}</ref> Rowling responded in December 2019 with a tweet that [[transgender]] people should live their lives as they pleased in "peace and security", but questioned women being "force[d] out of their jobs for stating that sex is real".<ref name=Stack2019/>{{efn|A tribunal ruled in 2021 that Forstater's gender-critical views were protected under the 2010 UK [[Equality Act 2010|Equality Act]].<ref name=Faulkner2021>{{cite news |first= Doug |last= Faulkner |url= https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-57426579 |title= Maya Forstater: woman wins tribunal appeal over transgender tweets |publisher= [[BBC News]] |date= 10 June 2021 |access-date= 26 March 2022}}</ref><ref name=Siddique2021>{{cite news |first= Haroon |last= Siddique |date= 10 June 2021 |title= Gender-critical views are a protected belief, appeal tribunal rules|url= https://www.theguardian.com/law/2021/jun/10/gender-critical-views-protected-belief-appeal-tribunal-rules-maya-forstater |work= [[The Guardian]] |access-date= 26 March 2022}}</ref> In July 2022, a new tribunal decision was published (''[[Forstater v Center for Global Development Europe]]'') ruling that Forstater had suffered direct discrimination from her employer.<ref>{{cite news |title=Maya Forstater: Woman discriminated against over trans tweets, tribunal rules|date=6 July 2022 |url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-62061929 |publisher=[[BBC News]] |access-date=6 July 2022}}</ref>}} In another controversial tweet in June 2020,<ref name=Petter2020>{{Cite web|last= Petter|first=Olivia|date=17 September 2020|title=Mermaids writes open letter to JK Rowling following her recent comments on trans people|url=https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/mermaids-jk-rowling-transphobia-transgender-sexual-abuse-domestic-letter-a9565176.html|access-date=26 March 2022|work=[[The Independent]] |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200615235531/https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/mermaids-jk-rowling-transphobia-transgender-sexual-abuse-domestic-letter-a9565176.html |archive-date=15 June 2020}}</ref> Rowling mocked an article for using the phrase "[[people who menstruate]]",<ref name=Gross2020>{{Cite news|last=Gross|first=Jenny|date=7 June 2020|title=Daniel Radcliffe criticizes J.K. Rowling's anti-transgender tweets|work=[[The New York Times]]|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/07/arts/Jk-Rowling-controversy.html |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200607221400/https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/07/arts/Jk-Rowling-controversy.html |archive-date=7 June 2020 |url-access=subscription |url-status=live|access-date=6 January 2022 }}</ref> and tweeted that [[women's rights]] and "lived reality" would be "erased" if "sex isn't real".{{sfn|Duggan|2021|loc=PDF pp. 14–15}}<ref>{{cite magazine|url=https://variety.com/2020/film/news/jk-rowling-transphobic-tweets-controversy-1234627081/|title=J.K. Rowling gets backlash over anti-trans tweets|last=Moreau|first=Jordan|magazine=[[Variety (magazine)|Variety]]|date=6 June 2020|access-date=13 June 2020|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200607005447/https://variety.com/2020/film/news/jk-rowling-transphobic-tweets-controversy-1234627081/|archive-date=7 June 2020|url-status=live}}</ref> |
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::Thanks for that. I just figured someone here was an admin who could make the change right away to at least match them. <sub>└</sub><sup>'''[[User:Jared|<font color="#0084C9">Jared</font>]]'''</sup><sub>┘</sub><sup>┌</sup><sub>''[[User Talk:Jared|<font color="#009E49">t</font>]]''</sub><sup>┐</sup>  23:11, 18 July 2007 (UTC) |
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[[LGBT]] charities and leading actors of the [[Wizarding World]] franchise condemned Rowling's comments;<ref name=Waterson2020>{{Cite news|last= Waterson |first= Jim|title= Children's news website apologises to JK Rowling over trans tweet row|url= https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jul/23/childrens-news-website-apologises-jk-rowling-trans-tweet-day|date= 23 July 2020 |access-date=26 March 2022|work=[[The Guardian]] |quote= Rowling's comments on gender were condemned by LGBT charities and the leading stars of her Harry Potter film franchise.}}</ref><ref name=Lang2020>{{cite magazine |last=Lang |first=Brent |title= Eddie Redmayne criticizes J.K. Rowling's anti-trans tweets |date= 10 June 2020 |url= https://variety.com/2020/film/news/eddie-redmayne-jk-rowling-anti-trans-tweets-harry-potter-fantastic-beasts-1234630226/ |magazine= [[Variety (magazine)|Variety]]|access-date=28 March 2022 |quote= Eddie Redmayne, star of the ''Fantastic Beasts'' franchise, is speaking out against J.K. Rowling's anti-trans tweets, as the controversy surrounding the author and her beliefs continues to swirl.}}</ref>{{efn| [[Daniel Radcliffe]], [[Emma Watson]], [[Rupert Grint]],<ref name= Hibberd2021/> [[Eddie Redmayne]]<ref name=Lang2020/> and others expressed support for the transgender community in reaction to Rowling's comments;<ref>{{cite magazine |first= Maureen |last= Lenker|title= Every Harry Potter actor who's spoken out against J.K. Rowling's controversial trans comments |date= 10 June 2020 |access-date= 1 April 2022 |magazine= [[Entertainment Weekly]]|url=https://ew.com/movies/every-harry-potter-actor-whos-spoken-out-against-j-k-rowlings-controversial-transgender-comments/ }}</ref><ref>{{cite news |first= Maggie |last= Baska|title= Stephen Fry defends 'friendship' with JK Rowling: 'I'm sorry that people are upset' |date= 20 May 2021 |url= https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2021/05/20/stephen-fry-jk-rowling-friend-harry-potter-jordan-b-peterson-podcast-trans/ |publisher= [[PinkNews]] |access-date= 29 March 2022}}</ref> [[Helena Bonham Carter]],<ref name=Evans2022> {{cite news |first= Greg |last= Evans |url= https://deadline.com/2022/11/helena-bonham-carter-johnny-depp-j-k-rowling-1235182523/ |title= Helena Bonham Carter says Johnny Depp 'completely vindicated' in defamation trial, and J.K. Rowling 'hounded' for transgender stance |work= [[Deadline Hollywood]] |access-date= 18 December 2022}}</ref> [[Robbie Coltrane]],<ref>{{cite news |last= Yasharoff |first= Hannah |title= How the 'Harry Potter' reunion addresses author J.K. Rowling's anti-trans controversy |date= 30 December 2021|url= https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/movies/2021/12/30/harry-potter-return-hogwarts-20th-reunion-emma-watson-jk-rowling-controversy/9042955002/ |work= [[USA Today]] |access-date= 2 April 2022}}</ref> and [[Ralph Fiennes]] supported Rowling.<ref name= Hibberd2021>{{cite news |first= James |last= Hibberd |url= https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/ralph-fiennes-defends-j-k-rowling-amid-trans-controversy-says-backlash-is-disturbing-4151944/ |title= Ralph Fiennes defends J.K. rowling amid trans controversy, says backlash is 'disturbing' |date= 17 March 2021 |access-date=26 March 2022 |work= [[The Hollywood Reporter]]}}</ref>}} [[GLAAD]] called them "cruel" and "inaccurate".<ref name= Yasharoff2020> {{cite news |last= Yasharoff |first=Hannah|url= https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/celebrities/2020/06/07/j-k-rowling-harry-potter-author-slammed-transphobic-comments/3169833001/ |title= J.K. Rowling reveals she's a sexual assault survivor; Emma Watson reacts to trans comments |work= [[USA Today]] |date= 10 June 2020 |access-date= 27 March 2022}}</ref> Rowling responded with an essay on her website<ref name=RowlingReasons>{{cite web|title=J.K. Rowling writes about her reasons for speaking out on sex and gender issues |url=https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/ |publisher=JK Rowling |date=10 June 2020 |access-date=10 June 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200610182056/https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/ |archive-date=10 June 2020 |url-status=live}}</ref> in which she revealed that her views on women's rights were informed by her experience as a survivor of domestic abuse and [[sexual assault]].<ref name=Shirbon2020>{{cite news |last1=Shirbon |first1=Estelle |title=J.K. Rowling reveals past abuse and defends right to speak on trans issues |url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-rowling/j-k-rowling-reveals-past-abuse-and-defends-right-to-speak-on-trans-issues-idUSKBN23H2XI |publisher=[[Reuters]] |date=10 June 2020 |access-date=13 June 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200611200348/https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-rowling/j-k-rowling-reveals-past-abuse-and-defends-right-to-speak-on-trans-issues-idUSKBN23H2XI |archive-date=11 June 2020 |url-status=live}}</ref> While affirming that "the majority of trans-identified people not only pose zero threat to others, but are vulnerable ... Trans people need and deserve protection", she believed that it would be unsafe to allow "any man who believes or feels he's a woman" into bathrooms or changing rooms.<ref name= Shirbon2020/><ref>{{cite news |last1=Gonzalez |first1=Sandra |title=J.K. Rowling explains her gender identity views in essay amid backlash |url=https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/10/entertainment/jk-rowling/index.html |access-date=16 September 2023 |work=[[CNN]] |date=10 June 2020}}</ref><ref>{{cite news |last1=Garrand |first1=Danielle |title= J.K. Rowling defends herself after accusations of making "anti-trans" comments on Twitter |url=https://www.cbsnews.com/news/j-k-rowling-defends-anti-trans-comments-twitter/ |access-date=16 September 2023 |work=[[CBS News]] |date=11 June 2020}}</ref> Writing of her own experiences with [[sexism]] and [[misogyny]],<ref>{{cite news |first= Sian |last= Cain |date= 11 June 2020 |title= JK Rowling reveals she is survivor of domestic abuse and sexual assault |url= https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/jun/10/jk-rowling-says-survivor-of-domestic-abuse-sexual-assault |work= [[The Guardian]] |access-date= 29 March 2022}}</ref> she wondered if the "allure of escaping womanhood" would have led her to [[Gender transitioning|transition]] if she had been born later, and said that trans activism was "seeking to erode 'woman' as a political and biological class".<ref name=DAlessandro2020>{{cite news |last=D'Alessandro |first=Anthony |title=J.K. Rowling defends trans statements in lengthy essay, reveals she's a sexual assault survivor & says 'trans people need and deserve protection' |url=https://deadline.com/2020/06/j-k-rowling-defends-trans-statements-essay-1202955524/ |access-date=5 January 2022 |work=[[Deadline Hollywood]] |date=10 June 2020}}</ref> |
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Someone change the "Harry Potter" section to read that seven out of seven books have been published. |
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Rowling's continual statements – beginning in 2017{{sfn|Duggan|2021|loc=PDF pp. 14–15 (160–161)}}<ref name= Jacobs2023>{{cite news |last= Jacobs |first= Julia |title= Hogwarts legacy can't cast aside debate over J. K. Rowling |url= https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/09/arts/hogwarts-legacy-jk-rowling.html |date= 9 February 2023 |work = [[The New York Times]] |access-date= 14 July 2023}}</ref><ref name= Spangler2023>{{cite news |last= Spangler|first= Todd |title= J.K. Rowling addresses backlash to her anti-trans comments in new podcast: 'I never set out to upset anyone' |url= https://variety.com/2023/digital/news/jk-rowling-anti-trans-comments-podcast-witch-trials-1235522301/ |date= 14 February 2023|work= [[Variety (magazine)|Variety]]|access-date= 14 July 2023}}</ref> – have been called transphobic by critics<ref name= Breznican2023>{{cite news |last= Breznican |first= Anthony |title= J.K. Rowling will oversee a new streaming ''Harry Potter'' series |url= https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2023/04/jk-rowling-harry-potter-series|date= 12 April 2023 |work= [[Vanity Fair (magazine)|Vanity Fair]] |access-date= 14 July 2023}}</ref><ref name=Rosenblatt2020>{{Cite web|last = Rosenblatt| first =Kalhan |title=J.K. Rowling doubles down in what some critics call a 'transphobic manifesto' |url= https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/j-k-rowling-doubles-down-what-some-critics-call-transphobic-n1229351|date= 10 June 2020 |access-date=19 January 2022|publisher=[[NBC News]] }}</ref> and she has been referred to as a [[TERF (acronym)|TERF]].<ref name= Rosenblatt2020/>{{sfn|Steinfeld|2020|pp=34–35}}{{sfn|Schwirblat|Freberg|Freberg|2022|pp=367–368}} She rejects these characterisations and the notion that she holds animosity towards transgender people, saying that her viewpoint has been misunderstood.<ref name=RowlingReasons/><ref name= Breznican2023/><ref name= Spangler2023/> Criticism of Rowling's views has come from the ''Harry Potter'' fansites [[MuggleNet]] and [[The Leaky Cauldron (website)|The Leaky Cauldron]];<ref name=FanSites>{{cite news|url=https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/03/harry-potter-fan-sites-distance-themselves-from-jk-rowling-over-transgender-rights|title=Harry Potter fan sites distance themselves from JK Rowling over transgender rights|publisher=[[Reuters]]|work=[[The Guardian]]|date=3 July 2020|access-date=3 July 2020|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200703011204/https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/03/harry-potter-fan-sites-distance-themselves-from-jk-rowling-over-transgender-rights|archive-date=3 July 2020|url-status=live}}</ref> and the charities [[Mermaids (charity)|Mermaids]],<ref name=Petter2020/> [[Stonewall (charity)|Stonewall]],<ref>{{cite news | url=https://www.newstatesman.com/long-reads/2021/11/the-battle-for-stonewall-the-lgbt-charity-and-the-uks-gender-wars | title=The battle for Stonewall: the LGBT charity and the UK's gender wars | work=[[New Statesman]]|first=Gaby |last=Hinsliff|date=3 November 2021 | access-date=24 November 2021}}</ref> and [[Human Rights Campaign]].<ref>{{cite news |first= Elise |last= Brisco |title=Dave Chappelle says he's 'Team TERF,' defends J.K. Rowling in new Netflix comedy special|url= https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/tv/2021/10/05/dave-chappelle-terf-defends-j-k-rowling-netflix-special/6002017001/ |work= [[USA Today]] |date= 8 October 2021|access-date= 29 March 2022}}</ref> After [[Kerry Kennedy]] expressed "profound disappointment" in her views, Rowling returned the [[Ripple of Hope Award]] given to her by the Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights organisation.<ref name=RFKAward>{{cite news |last=Flood|first=Alison |url= https://amp.theguardian.com/books/2020/aug/28/jk-rowling-robert-f-kennedy-human-rights-award-trans-views|title=JK Rowling returns human rights award to group that denounces her trans views |work=[[The Guardian]]|date=28 August 2020|access-date=28 August 2020}}</ref> |
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== Scottish? == |
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As Rowling's views on the [[legal status of transgender people]] came under scrutiny,{{sfn|Suissa|Sullivan|2021|pp=66–69}} she received insults and death threats{{sfn|Suissa|Sullivan|2021|p=69}}{{sfn|Qiao|2022|p=1323}} and discussion moved beyond the Twitter community.{{sfn|Schwirblat|Freberg|Freberg|2022|p=368}} Some performers and feminists have supported her.{{sfn|Schwirblat|Freberg|Freberg|2022|p=368}}<ref> Supporting Rowling: |
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Since when has JK Rowling been Scottish? |
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* [[Ayaan Hirsi Ali]]: {{cite news |first=Katie |last=Law |date= 15 October 2020|title= JK Rowling and the bitter battle of the book world |url=https://www.standard.co.uk/culture/books/trans-battle-book-world-jk-rowling-a4571221.html |work= [[Evening Standard]] |access-date=27 March 2022|ref=none}} |
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* [[Allison Bailey]]: {{cite news |url= https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/maya-forstater-transgender-twitter-jk-rowling-b1838151.html |title= Maya Forstater: who is woman in employment tribunal over transgender comments? |first= Sam |last= Hancock |date= 27 April 2021 |work= [[The Independent]] |access-date= 27 March 2022|archive-url= https://web.archive.org/web/20210427131430/https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/maya-forstater-transgender-twitter-jk-rowling-b1838151.html |archive-date= 27 April 2021 |quote= criminal defence barrister Allison Bailey – known for launching legal action against LGBT+ rights charity Stonewall over its attempt to have her investigated for setting up the anti-trans rights group LGB Alliance – has also been a vocal supporter of Ms Forstater.|ref=none}} |
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* [[Julie Bindel]]: {{cite news |last1=Thorpe |first1=Vanessa |title=JK Rowling: from magic to the heart of a Twitter storm |url=https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/jun/14/jk-rowling-from-magic-to-the-heart-of-a-twitter-storm |work=[[The Guardian]] |date=14 June 2020 |quote=Arrayed on Rowling's side are some of the veteran voices of feminism, including the radical Julie Bindel, who spoke out in support this weekend |access-date=6 July 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200704200412/https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/jun/14/jk-rowling-from-magic-to-the-heart-of-a-twitter-storm |archive-date=4 July 2020 |url-status=live|ref=none}} |
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* [[Dave Chappelle]]: {{Cite news |first= Maya |last=Yang|date=7 October 2021|title='I'm team Terf': Dave Chappelle under fire over pro-JK Rowling trans stance|url=https://www.theguardian.com/stage/2021/oct/07/dave-chappelle-transgender-netflix-special-backlash|access-date=27 March 2022|work=[[The Guardian]]|ref=none}} |
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* [[Dana International]]: {{cite news |last1=Shirbon |first1=Estelle |title=J.K. Rowling reveals past abuse and defends right to speak on trans issues |url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-rowling/j-k-rowling-reveals-past-abuse-and-defends-right-to-speak-on-trans-issues-idUSKBN23H2XI |publisher=[[Reuters]] |date=10 June 2020 |access-date=13 June 2020 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200611200348/https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-rowling/j-k-rowling-reveals-past-abuse-and-defends-right-to-speak-on-trans-issues-idUSKBN23H2XI |archive-date=11 June 2020 |url-status=live|ref=none}} |
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* [[Eddie Izzard]]: {{cite news |title='I don't think JK Rowling is transphobic,' says gender-fluid comedian Eddie Izzard |url=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/comedy/what-to-see/dont-think-jk-rowling-transphobic-says-gender-fluid-comedian/ |archive-url=https://ghostarchive.org/archive/20220110/https://www.telegraph.co.uk/comedy/what-to-see/dont-think-jk-rowling-transphobic-says-gender-fluid-comedian/ |archive-date=10 January 2022 |url-access=subscription |url-status=live |access-date=27 November 2021 |work=[[The Daily Telegraph]]|date=1 January 2021|ref=none}}{{cbignore}} |
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* [[Kathleen Stock]], [[Alison Moyet]]: {{cite news |url= https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-53002557 |publisher= [[BBC News]] |title= JK Rowling responds to trans tweets criticism |date= 11 June 2020 |access-date= 29 March 2022}}</ref> Figures from the arts world criticised "hate speech directed against her".<ref name= Flockhart2020>{{cite news |last= Flockhart |first= Gary |date= 28 September 2020 |access-date= 2 April 2022 |work = [[The Scotsman]] |title= JK Rowling receives support from Ian McEwan and Frances Barber amid 'transphobia' row|url= https://www.scotsman.com/news/people/jk-rowling-receives-support-from-ian-mcewan-and-frances-barber-amid-transphobia-row-2986268|ref=none}}</ref> |
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:That is how she refers to herself. Referring to her as "British" is a reasonable compromise. {{unsigned|Clydey}} |
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::Does she? Never heard that. [[User:Serendipodous|Serendipodous]] 07:58, 22 July 2007 (UTC) |
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==== Sources ==== |
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:::I see her referred to as Scottish all the time. I was sifting through google yesterday for definitive examples of either "Scottish" or "English". The only interview I found asked her a question on Scotland and how it felt to be Scottish. I can only imagine it's based on parentage or for having lived there for a while with her Scottish husband. {{unsigned|Clydey}} |
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{{cot|Sources}} |
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{{reflist-talk}} |
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{{notelist-talk}} |
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* {{Cite journal|last=Duggan|first=Jennifer|date=28 March 2021|title=Transformative readings: Harry Potter fan fiction, trans/queer reader response, and J. K. Rowling|journal=[[Children's Literature in Education]]|volume=53 |issue=2 |pages=147–168 |doi=10.1007/s10583-021-09446-9|pmid=35645426 |pmc=9132366 |s2cid=233661189 }} |
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*{{cite book |editor-last=Konchar Farr |editor-first=Cecilia |title=Open at the Close: Literary Essays on Harry Potter |publisher=[[University Press of Mississippi]] |year=2022 |isbn=978-1-4968-3931-2|ref = {{harvid|Konchar Farr|2022}} }} |
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**{{harvc|last=Henderson |first=Tolonda |date=2022 |in=Konchar Farr |c= A Coda: She-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named |url= https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctv2kqx0kz.19 |doi= 10.2307/j.ctv2kqx0kz.19|year=2022|nb=yes}} |
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* {{cite journal |first= Madeleine |last= Pape |author-link= Madeleine Pape |title= Feminism, trans justice, and speech rights: a comparative perspective |journal= [[Law and Contemporary Problems]] |pages= 215–240 |url= https://scholarship.law.duke.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=5037&context=lcp |date= 2022 |volume= 85 |issue= 1 |access-date= 29 March 2022 }} |
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* {{cite journal |first= Sarah |last= Pedersen |title= 'They've got an absolute army of women behind them': the formation of a women's cooperative constellation in contemporary Scotland |journal= [[Scottish Affairs]] |date= 2022 |volume= 31 |issue= 1 |pages= 1–20 |doi= 10.3366/scot.2022.0394 |s2cid= 246762983 |url= https://rgu-repository.worktribe.com/output/1375349 }} |
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* {{Cite book|last=Pugh|first=Tison|author-link=Tison Pugh|title=Harry Potter and Beyond: On J. K. Rowling's Fantasies and Other Fictions|publisher=[[University of South Carolina Press]]|year=2020|isbn=978-1-64336-088-1|oclc=1142046769|doi=10.2307/j.ctvs09qwv|s2cid=225791872}} |
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* {{cite book |first1=Tatiana |last1=Schwirblat|first2=Karen |last2=Freberg |first3=Laura |last3=Freberg |year=2022 |chapter= Chapter 21: Cancel culture: a career vulture amongst influencers on social media |editor1-last=Lipschultz |editor1-first= Jeremy Harris |editor2-last=Freberg |editor2-first= Karen |editor3-last=Luttrell |editor3-first= Regina|title= The Emerald Handbook of Computer-Mediated Communication and Social Media |publisher= [[Emerald Group Publishing|Emerald Publishing Limited]] |doi=10.1108/978-1-80071-597-420221021|isbn=978-1800715981}} |
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* {{cite journal |last1=Steinfeld |first1=Jemimah|title= Not my turf: Helen Lewis argues that vitriol around the trans debate means only extreme voices are being heard |journal= [[Index on Censorship]] |year=2020 |volume=49 |issue= 1 |pages=34–35 |doi= 10.1177/0306422020917609 |s2cid=216495541 |doi-access=free }} |
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* {{cite journal |first1= Judith |last1= Suissa |first2= Alice |last2= Sullivan |title= The gender wars, academic freedom and education |journal= [[Journal of Philosophy of Education]] |volume= 55 |issue= 1 |date= February 2021 |pages= 55–82 |doi= 10.1111/1467-9752.12549 |s2cid= 233646159 |doi-access= free |url= https://discovery.ucl.ac.uk/10125585/1/Suissa_1467-9752.12549.pdf }} |
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*{{Cite book|editor-last=Whited|editor-first=Lana A.|title=The Ivory Tower, Harry Potter, and Beyond|publisher=[[University of Missouri Press]]|year=2024|isbn=978-0-8262-2300-5 |ref= {{harvid|Whited (ed)|2024}} }} |
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** {{harvc|last= Borah |first= Rebecca Sutherland |c= 'Accio Jo!' Woke Wizards and Generational Potter Fandom |in= Whited (ed) |year=2024 |nb=yes}} |
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** {{harvc|last=Whited|first=Lana A.|c = Introduction |in= Whited (ed) |year=2024 |nb=yes}} |
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{{cob}} |
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==== Discussion of Draft 6.1 ==== |
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She hasn't referred to herself as Scottish ever, because she isn't. She is sometimes INCORRECTLY described as Scottish purely because she is based there. There's even a ancestry thing online somewhere that shows about 99% of her ancestors were English. {{unsigned|172.188.124.191}} |
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Thanks for getting the ball rolling on this, {{u|S Marshall}}, and I hope Victoria feels better soon. I am traveling today and won't be able to peek in 'til tomorrow. Bst, [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 16:49, 10 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:Agreed, thanks. As a newcomer to this discussion, I have to ask why are we just relying on one critic, Whited, whose opinion seems at ace level very pro-trans. What gives Whited the right to be here? Would it be useful to insert another critic to level the bias, or remove reference to Whited together? |
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:Yeah, and Alexander Graham Bell is 100% Scottish. That doesn't stop Canada trying to claim him. There's a short interview where she is asked about Scotland and what it feels like to be Scottish (the exact wording escapes me). {{unsigned|Clydey}} |
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:Also, in terms on labelling JKR, if a label is needed, gender-critical is indeed appropriate and applicable. [[User:Scientelensia|Scientelensia]] ([[User talk:Scientelensia|talk]]) 18:46, 10 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::If you can find a proper Rowling scholar who ''doesn't'' think Rowling's a trans-exclusionary feminist, go ahead and cite them.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 20:23, 10 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::Oh come on - are we going to have to go through this once a week now? J. K. Rowling is English, born to English parents in England. British is a compromise, yes, but not a good one. As you can probably tell from the number of times this comes up there is a great deal of nationalism between the constituent parts of the UK with each part very eager to "claim" certain celebrities as their own but that doesn't alter the fact that she is ethnically English. <b>[[User:AulaTPN|<font color="#89f">A</font><font color="#78e">u</font><font color="#67d">l</font><font color="#56c">a</font>]][[User talk:AulaTPN|<sup><font color="#45b">T</font><font color="#34a">P</font><font color="#239">N</font></sup>]]</b> 08:22, 23 July 2007 (UTC) |
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It's getting pretty good, actually; focused mostly on what she actually said rather than endless tedious recounting of what other people think of it. As to the discussions about whether to say "gender-critical", that seems to be a reasonable label to use, one that is frequently used as a self-label by people expressing views of a similar nature to JKR's, not a pejorative name like "TERF" or "transphobe". The point of disagreement is in the apparent lack of her actually self-labeling this way; it seems JKR hasn't applied any sort of ideological or political label to herself, preferring her views to speak for themselves. This makes it harder to put a label on her, but if one is to be applied, this one seems fairly reasonable. [[User:Dtobias|*Dan T.*]] ([[User talk:Dtobias|talk]]) 18:33, 10 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::Oh and Clydey, please sign your posts in future. <b>[[User:AulaTPN|<font color="#89f">A</font><font color="#78e">u</font><font color="#67d">l</font><font color="#56c">a</font>]][[User talk:AulaTPN|<sup><font color="#45b">T</font><font color="#34a">P</font><font color="#239">N</font></sup>]]</b> 08:27, 23 July 2007 (UTC) |
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::In fact I am going to change it back. Clydey you cannot claim she is Scottish because she was not born in Scotland and has no Scottish parentage and even though she has lived there for a considerable time it is not possible to become a naturalised Scot. Her nationality is British but her ethnicity is English and it would seem from my travels through Wiki that standard practice when referring to people from the Isles is to detail their ethnicity. Further, the vast majority of your edits seem to be solely concerned with attributing famous people as being Scottish. You seem to be a single-purpose account engaged in POV-pushing across Wikipedia. I urge you to consider your edits more carefully and not to revert my change. The consensus has always been to list her as English. <b>[[User:AulaTPN|<font color="#89f">A</font><font color="#78e">u</font><font color="#67d">l</font><font color="#56c">a</font>]][[User talk:AulaTPN|<sup><font color="#45b">T</font><font color="#34a">P</font><font color="#239">N</font></sup>]]</b> 08:33, 23 July 2007 (UTC) |
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:::My purpose is to ensure that Scots get the credit they deserve. I am not attempting to distort the facts. She is often referred to as Scottish and I did read an interview where she was asked how it felt to be Scottish. I am not randomly trying to label people as Scottish. I am not delusional. |
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:::You know those pages to which you refer, the ones where I was allegedly trying to push an agenda? Not one of those people were listed as Scottish, despite clearly being Scottish. Scottish people are British when it suits the English. Leaving a successful Scot's nationality ambiguous opens up the possibility of that person being mistakenly referred to as English. Most of world are ignorant to the fact that England is not Britain. |
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:::I am not unreasonable. I have agreed that Mark Knopfler should be referred to as British, even though he was born in Scotland. I am not about to sit back and watch great Scots be claimed by every country other than their own. It is a joke. Please get off your high horse. Ok, here's a challenge for you. Out of the pages you were referring to earlier, highlight one instance in which I have distorted the facts. My interest is in removing ambiguity and emphasising the facts. What I did was no different to you taking issue with J.K. Rowling being listed as Scottish/British. Do you get it now? [[User:Clydey|Clydey]] 13:36, 23 July 2007 (UTC) |
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::::Sheesh. If this matters so much to you, join the SNP. Independent Scotland, no ambiguity. Let her get a Scottish passport and decide for herself. [[User:Serendipodous|Serendipodous]] 13:37, 23 July 2007 (UTC) |
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:::::I have no desire to engage in a tit-for-tat argument, I am not on a high-horse and I think your goal is admirable however I would encourage you to consider to points. 1) Edits to Wikipedia must be done on the basis of consensus - that's how things work. The consensus at the moment is to list as English - that can always change. 2) You cannot *possibly* believe or hope to claim that J. K. Rowling is Scottish. As a much more perspicacious editor wrote the last time we had this discussion one can not be Scottish by nationality as one cannot be a citizen of Scotland. Therefore we can only talk of someone's ethnicity in this case and J.K. is most definitely and incontravertably English. Sorry you don't seem to like that but those are the plain facts. <b>[[User:AulaTPN|<font color="#89f">A</font><font color="#78e">u</font><font color="#67d">l</font><font color="#56c">a</font>]][[User talk:AulaTPN|<sup><font color="#45b">T</font><font color="#34a">P</font><font color="#239">N</font></sup>]]</b> 13:43, 23 July 2007 (UTC) |
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::::::In essence you are discounting someone's place of birth and emphasising their ancestry? What I mean by that is someone with Scottish parents, although born in England, would be referred to as Scottish, correct? I am just trying to clarify your point. I don't think there is a consensus on how one defines ethnicity on here, whether birthplace takes precedence over parentage. |
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::::::Again, I go back to Alexander Graham Bell. It's pretty clear that the man was Scottish, yet on many, many webpages he is described as an American. If Scotland is lucky, he is referred to as a "Scottish-born American". If we're really, really lucky and the Americans are feeling generous, he is a "Scottish-American". Funnily enough, this also applies to his father, a man who never gained American citizenship. |
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::::::It's funny how success has that unique ability to modify/split someone's ethnicity. Bell spent his summers in Canada to be close to his father. He was listed as one of the "100 Greatest Canadians". 'Nuff said really. I think I got off the point a little. Yeah, as far as J.K. Rowling goes, I was merely following what I found on goggle. If I'm a bit off the mark, I'll gladly concede. I found it strange that she was so frequently described as Scottish, however.[[User:Clydey|Clydey]] 14:09, 23 July 2007 (UTC) |
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I think this whole issue is stupid. JK Rowling is British. That's her nationality. Her ethnicity shouldn't matter to anyone any more than her race should. All ethnicity is is what combination of myths and stories one chooses to believe about where one came from, most of which are made up anyway. Is it really that important? [[User:Serendipodous|Serendipodous]] 14:12, 23 July 2007 (UTC) |
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:Clydey that's not what I'm saying but that's beside the point. Seren, I do think it's a fairly pointless argument but to attempt to assert that J.K. is Scottish is ludicrous. I don't necessarily have a particular point to push save that as far as I could tell, the consensus was to describer her as English and that there is an extreme amount of nationalism pushing from the other consituent members of the UK. I notice for instance that any Scottish address which is listed as "... Scotlant, UK" instantly has the "UK" removed. Whereas I have no particular objection to the removal, other than that adding "UK" is factually correct, it seems to me that the standard practice on Wiki when it comes to the UK is to go down to that level of granularity rather than stop with just British. And if there is one apparent rule for articles pertaining to the rest of the UK then it should surely apply to the whole of the UK so as to maintain consistency? <b>[[User:AulaTPN|<font color="#89f">A</font><font color="#78e">u</font><font color="#67d">l</font><font color="#56c">a</font>]][[User talk:AulaTPN|<sup><font color="#45b">T</font><font color="#34a">P</font><font color="#239">N</font></sup>]]</b> 14:47, 23 July 2007 (UTC) |
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::I wasn't having a go at you, Aula. I was quite genuinely seeking clarification on the point you made. And it is not ludicrous to label J.K. Rowling as Scottish in light of how often she is referred to as Scottish. It might very well be wrong, but it is hardly ludicrous. You will notice that I have conceded in this case and have not reverted it to "Scottish" or "British". [[User:Clydey|Clydey]] 15:03, 23 July 2007 (UTC) |
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This is what Wikipedia will reap from having created this entirely illogical double-standard in reference to subjects relating to the United Kingdom. There is no other country I can think of where Wikipedians see themselves able to comment on someone's identity rather than simply labelling their nationality. It seems incredibly obvious to me that the only way to sort this out should be to label any British person as being British - add in their Scottish, English, Welsh or Irish allegiances if relevant in addition to their nationality, and only consider removing British where they have made an actual statement that they don't view themselves accordingly. Personally this whole British/Scottish/English etc thing has really lowered my respect for Wikipedia. --[[User:Breadandcheese|Breadandcheese]] 18:05, 23 July 2007 (UTC) |
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:I completely agree, although long-time watchers of this talk page might not believe me! The unfortunate double-standard, due to the very nature of the United Kingdom, which has arisen here is crazy and short of a new Wiki Policy to combat this I don't see how you could ever hope to sort it out? I don't mind which way the decision falls, whether everything and everyone gets labelled British or English/Scottish/Welsh, as long as it is consistent but given how vigorously any attempt to apply the terms "British" or "UK" to anything which is not solely English seems to be met with reversion, it would seem that to keep things consistent would imply keeping English things as English? What do you think, can we push for a new policy or is that going to be viewed as the height of pedantry? <b>[[User:AulaTPN|<font color="#89f">A</font><font color="#78e">u</font><font color="#67d">l</font><font color="#56c">a</font>]][[User talk:AulaTPN|<sup><font color="#45b">T</font><font color="#34a">P</font><font color="#239">N</font></sup>]]</b> 18:33, 23 July 2007 (UTC) |
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::Interestingly enough (or maybe not) there's been quite a discussion about this over at the Village Pump policy article. While no official policy has fallen out of the discussion as yet, the consensus seems to be leaning towards accepting that this is a quirk of the way the UK works as a sovereign state and sticking with English, Northern Irish, Scottish, Welsh rather than British. One of the justifications seems to be that the UK government itself recognises the nations as separate countries. <b>[[User:AulaTPN|<font color="#89f">A</font><font color="#78e">u</font><font color="#67d">l</font><font color="#56c">a</font>]][[User talk:AulaTPN|<sup><font color="#45b">T</font><font color="#34a">P</font><font color="#239">N</font></sup>]]</b> 22:30, 24 July 2007 (UTC) |
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::: Thanks for the heads-up. I rarely if ever check the Village Pump, so I'm glad I didn't miss the heat of this discussion. I'd very much like to create a new policy. While I'm not one of those people who thinks that UK need be everywhere (I'm quite comfortable with, say, "Nowheretown is a town in Somewhereshire, England" - but infobox locations and such should clearly identify the country as what it is. I also note it seems to be a small number of people who revert away all mentions of the UK - often ones with self-confessed political allegiances not shared by most. --[[User:Breadandcheese|Breadandcheese]] 05:40, 26 July 2007 (UTC) |
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Now, Tony Blair is referred to as British even though he was born in Scotland. Why? Well, for a starts his passport clearly states, British Citizen. There is no such thing as an English or Scottish nationality and the sooner it dies out the better. [[User:Gavin Scott|Gavin Scott]] 01:25, 2 August 2007 (UTC) |
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==What the heck was wrong with that image?== |
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Why was the image of JK at Radio City deleted from the Wikimedia Commons? For years people have been complaining that only images taken by users can be uploaded, but when we finally have one, it gets deleted. Do the Wiki admins not want any images for this article? Because if they don't, they shouldn't program those bloody automated checklists complain when an article doesn't have any. [[User:Serendipodous|Serendipodous]] 08:39, 23 July 2007 (UTC) |
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:Funny, I was just watching these edits and I have no idea? Maybe we can persuade the uploader to reupload and add the copyright information? Or maybe we can persuade the uploader of the image which replaced it to add the copyright information for that one?<b>[[User:AulaTPN|<font color="#89f">A</font><font color="#78e">u</font><font color="#67d">l</font><font color="#56c">a</font>]][[User talk:AulaTPN|<sup><font color="#45b">T</font><font color="#34a">P</font><font color="#239">N</font></sup>]]</b> 08:41, 23 July 2007 (UTC) |
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:Right, I found the original copyright info and have passed it on to the admin at commons who deleted it and asked them to reinstate the image [http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Polarlys#Image:Radio_City_Music_Hall_08-01-2006.jpg here]. <b>[[User:AulaTPN|<font color="#89f">A</font><font color="#78e">u</font><font color="#67d">l</font><font color="#56c">a</font>]][[User talk:AulaTPN|<sup><font color="#45b">T</font><font color="#34a">P</font><font color="#239">N</font></sup>]]</b> 08:52, 23 July 2007 (UTC) |
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:Ok so the reason it was deleted from commons is that it was determined to have been a screenshot from TV so I doubt that there's any chance of getting the image back. <b>[[User:AulaTPN|<font color="#89f">A</font><font color="#78e">u</font><font color="#67d">l</font><font color="#56c">a</font>]][[User talk:AulaTPN|<sup><font color="#45b">T</font><font color="#34a">P</font><font color="#239">N</font></sup>]]</b> 11:25, 23 July 2007 (UTC) |
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::Bugger. When will these pedants accept that taking a picture of JK Rowling is virtually impossible, and allow us to post a promo pic instead? [[User:Serendipodous|Serendipodous]] 12:51, 23 July 2007 (UTC) |
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:::Who knows? I certainly can't understand why it seems to be good enough for 95% of the other BLP articles but not for this one? <b>[[User:AulaTPN|<font color="#89f">A</font><font color="#78e">u</font><font color="#67d">l</font><font color="#56c">a</font>]][[User talk:AulaTPN|<sup><font color="#45b">T</font><font color="#34a">P</font><font color="#239">N</font></sup>]]</b> 13:13, 23 July 2007 (UTC) |
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::::Yes I was wondering why this article was missing an image. It seems odd that this page lacks an image, considering her new novel was just released. No offense, the article is great anyway. Thanks, '''<font color="green">[[User:Meldshal42|Meldshal]]</font><font color="pink">[[User_talk:Meldshal42|42]]</font>''' 21:46, 23 July 2007 (UTC) |
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:::::Could someone ask for a photo, preferably someone of Admin status? Here's the contact info for Scholastic, who have provided the Press with numerous images. [[User:70.137.158.83|70.137.158.83]] 10:00, 26 July 2007 (UTC) |
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Media Inquiries |
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Corporate Communications |
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212-343-4563 |
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news@scholastic.com |
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http://www.scholastic.com/aboutscholastic/offices/index.htm |
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:::We will once the Wikimedia Foundation changes its direction and stops trying to promote a fully free encyclopedia. That will unleash the gates for more promo pics. Unfortuantely, the directive is quite clear, and the English Wikipeida is a huge exception in any kind of non-free image – most other language Wikipedias only allow free iamges. [[User:Hbdragon88|hbdragon88]] 06:42, 29 July 2007 (UTC) |
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is there anybody take J.K.'s picture anywhere anytime? [[User:Pmuean|Pmuean]] 14:30, 28 July 2007 (UTC) |
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:Don't you think that someone sometime has taken a picture of Rowling at a charityreading or before she got so famous? Couldn't it be wise to contact some of the biggest fanclubs? [http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anv%C3%A4ndare:Suz sv:Suz] 2 August 11.07 (CEST) |
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::Done. I happened to see her getting an honorary degree from Aberdeen, when my wee brother was getting his degree... [[User:Sjhill|Sjhill]] 14:27, 3 August 2007 (UTC) |
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:::You, sir, are an absolute star! This has been driving us insane for months! Thank you. <b>[[User:AulaTPN|<font color="#89f">A</font><font color="#78e">u</font><font color="#67d">l</font><font color="#56c">a</font>]][[User talk:AulaTPN|<sup><font color="#45b">T</font><font color="#34a">P</font><font color="#239">N</font></sup>]]</b> 17:24, 3 August 2007 (UTC) |
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== money, money, money??? == |
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Why does the introduction talk mostly about how much money Rowling made? Doesn't that demean her achievements as a writer? OK, mention that she made a ton of money, but that more than 2/3 of the intro should be about money is too much, inho.--[[User:345Kai|345Kai]] 02:13, 25 July 2007 (UTC) |
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== Critical response == |
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This section contains the view of only a single critic, which makes it seriously misleading. There is a wide range of opinion about the quality of her books amongst literary critics, and this ought to be reflected in the section. JH ([[User talk:Jhall1|talk page]]) 20:32, 25 July 2007 (UTC) |
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:I removed it. Discussion of the books doesn't belong in a biographical article. [[User:Serendipodous|Serendipodous]] 20:44, 25 July 2007 (UTC) |
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== Church Affiliation == |
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Has anyone seen a direct quote from JKR regarding which church she attends/is a member of? The American Prospect from 2002 (as well as many websites) states that she is a member of the Church of Scotland, which is Presbyterian. Wikipedia (and other websites) lists her as a member of the Scottish Episcopal Church (not cited), which is Anglican. The latter makes sense as she attended Church of England schools growing up. --[[User:Cdman882|Cdman882]] 02:03, 26 July 2007 (UTC) |
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:See: [[Religious opposition to the Harry Potter series#Rowling's response]]. The article "Charmed, I'm Sure" describes how her daughter was baptised into the Church of Scotland.[http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/1999/1099-post-weeks.htm] The Tatler [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/01/10/nrowl110.xml&page=3] describes her as an "Episcopalian" but doesn't mention the Scottish Episcopal church. This could simply mean she was baptised into the Church of England, which doesn't really mean much for an English-born Englishwoman, since pretty much everyone born in England who is of English ethnicity is baptised into that church, whether they call themselves religous or not. [[User:Serendipodous|Serendipodous]] 05:29, 26 July 2007 (UTC) |
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== Nicolson's Cafe == |
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I noticed the article [[Nicolson's Cafe]] was deleted and we now have a red link. It seems like a wiki-worthy article since it is a site of pilgrimage for Potterheads, and maybe a photo and address would be interesting. I never read the deleted article, so maybe it was deleted for good cause. Should the hyperlink be eliminated or a new Nicolson's Cafe article posted? [[User:Libertycookies|Libertycookies]] 10:51, 26 July 2007 (UTC) |
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:I don't think Nicholson's exists anymore. Last I heard it was a Chinese takeaway. [[User:Serendipodous|Serendipodous]] 14:18, 26 July 2007 (UTC) |
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::Still think it's a notable and worthy article. <b>[[User:AulaTPN|<font color="#89f">A</font><font color="#78e">u</font><font color="#67d">l</font><font color="#56c">a</font>]][[User talk:AulaTPN|<sup><font color="#45b">T</font><font color="#34a">P</font><font color="#239">N</font></sup>]]</b> 14:39, 26 July 2007 (UTC) |
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:::If it doesn't exist anymore, all the better for us to have an article. No one can claim it is a commercial advertisement for Nicholson's, and we can (hopefully) find a vintage photo. [[User:Libertycookies|Libertycookies]] 16:41, 26 July 2007 (UTC) |
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== Her "middle name" == |
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"Joanne Kathleen Rowling" produces 494,000 google hits. "Joanne Rowling" produces 170,000. How else can it be shown that this middle name is "often assumed"? [[User:Serendipodous|Serendipodous]] 14:24, 26 July 2007 (UTC) |
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:It says on the inside right hand flap of the jacket of Deathly Hallows that she is Joanna Kathleen Rowling |
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:Why don't we just cite a few articles like this one from Forbes http://www.forbes.com/maserati/billionaires2004/cx_jw_0226rowlingbill04.html or this entry in the Encyclopedia Britannica: http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9346272/JK-Rowling#720696.hook |
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[[User:Karanacs|Karanacs]] 15:44, 26 July 2007 (UTC) |
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::''Her pseudonym is JK Rowling, not Joanne Kathleen Rowling'' - hmm possbily debatable but you're probably right to leave it at that. Prior to the release of Deathly Hallows I would have obviously agreed with you but on the inside cover of my copy, the publishers have decided to confuse matters by expanding her pseudonym. <b>[[User:AulaTPN|<font color="#89f">A</font><font color="#78e">u</font><font color="#67d">l</font><font color="#56c">a</font>]][[User talk:AulaTPN|<sup><font color="#45b">T</font><font color="#34a">P</font><font color="#239">N</font></sup>]]</b> 19:37, 26 July 2007 (UTC) |
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== Education == |
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The article reads, "Rowling read for a BA in French and Classics at the University of Exeter." The biography on her official website reads, "I left school in 1983 and went to study at the University of Exeter, on the south coast of England. I studied French, which was a mistake; I had succumbed to parental pressure to study 'useful' modern languages as opposed to 'but-where-will-it-lead?' English and really should have stood my ground. On the plus side, studying French meant that I had a year living in Paris as part of my course. After leaving university I worked in London." |
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So, she read for a degree, and then she left university. But neither source states definitively whether she, in fact, completed the course of study. Did she graduate with her BA? [[User:Poldy Bloom|Poldy Bloom]] 20:47, 27 July 2007 (UTC) |
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====Weird characterisation==== |
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"Since 2017,[4] she has written frequently about transgender rights, mostly in the context of proposed changes to UK gender recognition laws that would make it easier to transition without a medical diagnosis." |
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I don't get why we're using such a weirdly unspecific wording as "about". Like "she has written frequently against transgender rights" says something. If we can't get the sentence to say something with actual meaning, then the sentence is filler and should be scrapped: as it is, the only part that seems to be meaningful is "since 2017". |
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== Mitford's Communism == |
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What relevance is there in writing "Rowling's heroine, one-time Communist Jessica Mitford"? Rowling doesn't appear to be a Communist, nor does she claim to be one. Nor do I see any reference to Mitford's Communism being the reason that Rowling looked up to her. I'm not sure how it fits in the article, and it looks like a clumsy attempt to smear Rowling. [[User:64.131.230.21|64.131.230.21]] 05:25, 30 July 2007 (UTC) |
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:I've given up trying to debate Libertycookies on this issue. If someone else wants to take up the slack, they're welcome. [[User:Serendipodous|Serendipodous]] 10:57, 30 July 2007 (UTC) |
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::It is relevent because she is Rowling's self described heroine. Mitford was a Communist at one time and never was ashamed of it. It in fact defines much of her and her beliefs. However, if anyone else can give a brief summary of Jessica Mitford in a few words please propose below...we could lose the "one-time", but then you miss the fact that Mitford left the Communist Party USA. Radical socialist muckraker, maybe? Mitford shouldn't be whitewashed just because of editor prejudices against political philosophies. [[User:Libertycookies|Libertycookies]] 19:30, 30 July 2007 (UTC) |
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:::Lib, This article isn't about Jessica Mitford, it's about JK Rowling. The issue here isn't whether Mitford should be "whitewashed"; the issue is whether, and in what way, Mitford has affected Rowling or her literary output. Rowling herslef has given a number of very detailed explanations of precisely the kind of influence Mitford has had on her (see [[Harry Potter influences and analogues#Jessica Mitford]]), without once claiming that she inspired her to become a Communist or an anarchist. JK Rowling is not a Communist. If she were, she would be living in a co-op and not an $8 million town house. JK Rowling is not an anarchist. If she were, she wouldn't be best friends with the Prime Minister of her country. Deathly Hallows is out, and it is loaded with very un-Communistic religious allegory. On a side note, I have to ask, do you have any other purpose, any other calling, in editing Wikipedia apart from trying to make an idological link -''any'' ideological link- between JK Rowling and Jessica Mitford? Anything at all? Because you don't seem to do anything else. I edit [[Harry Potter]] articles, but I also edit articles on the [[Solar System]], on [[Tudor]] [[history]], and Terry Pratchett's [[Discworld]] series. I can't imagine your level of obsession is psychologically healthy.It's been a week now, and your fears of the book being a mind-bomb have yet to materialise. Don't you think it's time you let this go? [[User:Serendipodous|Serendipodous]] 11:26, 31 July 2007 (UTC) |
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Well, there's also the part about the gender recognition laws being the main focus... I have to ask if that's supported by sources as a general rule, or if the sources only say that she reacted at three times to such laws. It's kind of hard to make such a general statement with sources locked to very narrow periods of time. If the statement is something like "initially in response to..." then that's much easier to support. |
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::: "Leftists influences" I can accept, but "one time communist" is pushing it. Removed the latter. [[User:Jossi|≈ jossi ≈]] <small>[[User_talk:Jossi|(talk)]]</small> 17:52, 31 July 2007 (UTC) |
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::::Jossi, you don't even have to read Mitford's autobiography to pick up that she was a Communist, just open your eyes. But if you want to whitewash who she is, how can I possibly stop an Admin?[[User:Libertycookies|Libertycookies]] 20:59, 31 July 2007 (UTC) |
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[[Image:A-fine-old-conflict.gif|90pix|thumb|Labor lawyer husband, Bob Treuhaft, and Jessica Mitford.]] |
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Like, the draft's a massive improvement, but that one sentence... <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em; class=texhtml">'''[[User:Adam Cuerden|Adam Cuerden]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Adam Cuerden|talk]])</sup><sub>Has about 8.9% of all [[WP:FP|FPs]].</sub></span> 22:45, 10 May 2024 (UTC) |
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Hey Seren, where do you get the idea that Rowling must be a communist simply because she admires one? RE: her friendship with GB proving that she isn't a Communist, you are aware that Gordon Brown edited the Red Paper on Scotland in his younger days, right?[http://www.redpaper.net/about.htm] Her association with him hardly proves she is anti-communist. On a personal note, your own behavior crosses [[WP:OWN]] with your claims and protection of articles and your prejudice of Leftist political philosophy. |
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:I said that her friendship with the prime minister proves she isn't an anarchist, not a Communist. Even Communists believe in political heirarchy. Anarchists don't. <b>[[User:Serendipodous|<font color="#00b">Serendi</font>]]<sup><font color="#b00">pod</font></sup><font color="#00b">[[User talk: Serendipodous|ous]]</font></b> 05:22, 1 August 2007 (UTC) |
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::Only if you take a very narrow definition of [[Anarchism]] is that true. [[Anarcho-syndicalism]] supports a labor friendly government and is class-conscious, advocating solidarity and direct action, not unlike a certain British writer. Even anarchists like [[Fawkes]] only wanted to overthrow a repressive government to allow a new one to take root. The [[Russian revolution]] and [[Spanish Civil War]] had many instances of Anarchists collaborating with Communists. And btw, it is only your POV that she is friends with GB because she supports the status quo....or is it because he is a departure from Tony Blair and the status quo of the last 10 years? [[User:Libertycookies|Libertycookies]] 06:55, 1 August 2007 (UTC) |
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*And, she's not writing about or against transgender rights. She's writing about the law and the definition of a woman, with a focus on access to female-only spaces. I'll get my thinking cap on.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 10:22, 12 May 2024 (UTC) |
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I doubt Rowling means to redistribute her wealth (other than voluntarily to orgs that she approves of) or anyone elses, but her books clearly advocate questioning authority and revolting when necessary. Or did you get a different edition of Deathly Hallows that endorses conservative values and the status quo? [[User:Libertycookies|Libertycookies]] 20:44, 31 July 2007 (UTC) |
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*:Actually why not just say that? |
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::I take exception with equating questioning authority with Communism. You could say one of democracy's central tenets is questioning authority and revolting when necessary. That's why we have elections periodically, and both the US and France had pretty bloody revolutions in trying to become democracies. In the UK, the [[Magna Carta]] was pretty revolutionary, but it is definitely not a sign of communism either. I don't think it matters one way or the other if Mitford was a Communist. She's now listed as an influence on JKR, and anyone who doesn't know about her can click the link and make their own inferences. [[User:Karanacs|Karanacs]] 21:11, 31 July 2007 (UTC) |
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::{{tq2|Since 2017 she has written about the law and the definition of a woman. She is concerned about proposed changes to UK law that would make it easier to transition without a medical diagnosis, and about freedom of speech. She is particularly interested in how increased transgender rights would affect access to female-only spaces and legal protections for women.}} |
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:::Not the point I was trying to make, but I agree democracy ''should'' question authority. The US was founded by a bunch of rebels. A book about one of the radicals that helped fan the flames of democracy, ''Citizen [[Tom Paine]]'' was a gift from [[Dobby]] to [[Jessica Mitford]] in ''A Fine old Conflict.'' Rowling and Mitford are certainly both radicals. [[User:Libertycookies|Libertycookies]] 21:30, 31 July 2007 (UTC) |
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::The downside is, it's long.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 10:31, 12 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::::Mitford was a radical, yes. I don't think we can say that Rowling is a radical from the information available. ''The character Harry Potter'' might be a radical, but that doesn't mean Rowling is (some of Stephen King's characters are psychopaths, but that doesn't mean he is one or that he advocates brutal murders).[[User:Karanacs|Karanacs]] 13:33, 1 August 2007 (UTC) |
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:::I think, as long as that doesn't replace the sentences after the one under discussion, that it's okay, but I do worry we're skirting the line of falling into the gender critical movement's framing of itself. As the rest of the paragraph explains, her views are very anti-transwomen. <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em; class=texhtml">'''[[User:Adam Cuerden|Adam Cuerden]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Adam Cuerden|talk]])</sup><sub>Has about 8.9% of all [[WP:FP|FPs]].</sub></span> 13:22, 12 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::We certainly could call her a [[radical]], or at least a radical thinker...what's wrong with that? It's the unopposed status quo that is responsible for anarchy in Iraq and a perpetual war on terror, not the radicals, anarchists, and commies...the Left is so out of power that it's hard to blame them for anything. Here's a Rowling quote on being radical:[[User:Libertycookies|Libertycookies]] 18:01, 1 August 2007 (UTC) |
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::::I wouldn't just say anti-trans woman. She has expressed some pretty serious contempt for trans men too, just in the "poor deluded girls" framing that often gets people to mistake condescension for concern. |
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:::::"At first Exeter [University] was a bit of a shock. I was expecting to be amongst lots of similar people-- '''thinking radical thoughts'''. But it wasn't like that. However, once I'd made friends with some like-minded people I began to enjoy myself." JK Rowling, pg 34 ''Conversations with JK Rowling'' Scholastic. |
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::::I agree that "about" is bad and "against" is better. But maybe something like {{tq|She has frequently opposed proposed laws that would expand transgender rights, such as...}} would be even better? [[User:LokiTheLiar|Loki]] ([[User talk:LokiTheLiar|talk]]) 14:43, 12 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::True, though her views on transmen aren't as widely reported (and more-or-less don't appear in the rest of the proposed paragraph) so it's a little harder to source with the restrictions on sources <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em; class=texhtml">'''[[User:Adam Cuerden|Adam Cuerden]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Adam Cuerden|talk]])</sup><sub>Has about 8.9% of all [[WP:FP|FPs]].</sub></span> 16:10, 12 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::I wouldn't write "opposed proposed". You might say I'm disposed to oppose opposed proposed.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 16:22, 12 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::😅 |
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:::::::Alright then, {{tq|She has frequently spoken against proposed laws that would expand transgender rights, such as...}}. [[User:LokiTheLiar|Loki]] ([[User talk:LokiTheLiar|talk]]) 18:56, 12 May 2024 (UTC) |
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*How about: |
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:{{tq2|Since 2017 she has written about transgender people. She resists proposed changes to UK law that would make it simpler to transition without a medical diagnosis. She is concerned about how easier transitions could affect access to female-only spaces and legal protections for women.}} |
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:Better?—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 19:06, 12 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::This works! [[User:Scientelensia|Scientelensia]] ([[User talk:Scientelensia|talk]]) 19:08, 12 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Now up as draft 6.2.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 19:14, 12 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::::I still don't like it because IMO {{tq|Since 2017 she has written about transgender people}} is meaningless without saying which way she has written about them. We could cut that sentence and just have: |
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::::{{tq2|Since 2017 she has resisted proposed changes to UK law that would make it simpler to transition without a medical diagnosis. She is concerned about how easier transitions could affect access to female-only spaces and legal protections for women.}} [[User:LokiTheLiar|Loki]] ([[User talk:LokiTheLiar|talk]]) 23:28, 12 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::She hasn't, though. She started writing about trans issues in 2017 but the resistance to legal changes dates to 2019 at the earliest, so that's counterfactual.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 23:43, 12 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::Was there any commentary of particular prominence or noteworthiness in 2017 or 2018? If not, one could say something like "While she had made some comments beginning in 2017, her views first came to widespread prominence in 2019..." and then jump into the Maya Forstater stuff and the proposed changes to UK law. If her extremely early views are going to hurt an otherwise clear and consise description of what she did, cut out the information or isolate it to its own sentence. <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em; class=texhtml">'''[[User:Adam Cuerden|Adam Cuerden]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Adam Cuerden|talk]])</sup><sub>Has about 8.9% of all [[WP:FP|FPs]].</sub></span> 01:56, 13 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::: That's a lot of extra words though.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 06:48, 13 May 2024 (UTC) |
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*In draft 6.3, I've cut the disputed sentence.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 06:54, 13 May 2024 (UTC) |
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== Suissa and Sullivan == |
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==Citations for the development of the Harry Potter books== |
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{{cot|Continue this at [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Suissa and Sullivan]], please.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 15:19, 15 May 2024 (UTC)}} |
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* [http://in.movies.yahoo.com/070731/139/6iu1y.html Rowling regrets keeping Harry Potter a secret from mum] - tells how originally Harry Potter's parents didn't figure much in the story, that their deaths were just plain side story |
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We've discussed anove what an odd source this is, and how it has sections that are clearly pro-gender critical movement. The introduction explicitly states that transwomen are not women, and that transgender people need no mord rights than already offered under UK law at the time. In the revised draft, it's used once. Does it ''have'' to be used at all? <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em; class=texhtml">'''[[User:Adam Cuerden|Adam Cuerden]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Adam Cuerden|talk]])</sup><sub>Has about 8.9% of all [[WP:FP|FPs]].</sub></span> 16:13, 12 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:Is it your position that no source that takes such positions should be used? How about sources that take opposing positions (stating that trans women are women, that transgender people need more rights under law, and being anti-gender-critical movement)? Do all sources have to be strictly neutral, or is it just that sources taking one side (but not the other) need to be avoided? [[User:Dtobias|*Dan T.*]] ([[User talk:Dtobias|talk]]) 14:51, 13 May 2024 (UTC) |
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* [http://in.movies.yahoo.com/070731/139/6iu1z.html 'Radcliffe was desperate to know Potter's fate', reveals Rowling, Y! India Movies] |
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::The issue here is that it appears to be a non-mainstream position in academic philosophy. (I'd link that to [[WP:FRINGE]] but in the context of philosophy that feels inflammatory. Nevertheless, I still would avoid citing it for its argument for similar reasons.) And it's also only being used as a redundant citation for a single footnote right now. [[User:LokiTheLiar|Loki]] ([[User talk:LokiTheLiar|talk]]) 02:17, 14 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::In which case there's no reason to cut it.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 07:04, 14 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::::It's giving a questionable source exposure. I'm not sure how it adds anything but makes the article vulnerable to a source check. Does it even support the content? <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em; class=texhtml">'''[[User:Adam Cuerden|Adam Cuerden]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Adam Cuerden|talk]])</sup><sub>Has about 8.9% of all [[WP:FP|FPs]].</sub></span> 07:19, 14 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::Well, you say it's questionable, but you've raised questions about its ideology rather than its accuracy.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 07:40, 14 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::They're saying it's [[WP:PROFRINGE]] - which it is - and as such it should not be used as a source in circumstances like this one. [[User:Simonm223|Simonm223]] ([[User talk:Simonm223|talk]]) 17:22, 14 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::No, that sentence isn't promoting a fringe theory.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 18:23, 14 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::The paper is, for example, {{tq|We will argue that current conflicts around sex and gender are not about trans rights per se, which we fully support, and which are already protected under current UK legislation,1 but about the imposition of ontological claims underlying a particular ideological position. Often associated with the intellectual traditions of postmodernism and queer theory, this position entails denying the material reality and political salience of sex as a category, and rejecting the rights of women as a sex class (Jones and Mackenzie, 2020). Disallowing discussion on these points is a feature of and, as we will argue, fundamental to a prominent strand of activism associated with this position, which we will refer to here as the gender identity ideology and movement.}} Is dipping into fringe territory with the claims that: |
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::::::::# There is a postmodernism and queer theory-derived ontological position that denies the material reality of sex as a category. |
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::::::::# That said ontological position "rejects the rights of women" |
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::::::::# That discussion of these points is disallowed |
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::::::::These are fringe positions. They're frankly farcical if you have even a passing familiarity with queer theory or the major ontological works of "postmodernism". [[User:Simonm223|Simonm223]] ([[User talk:Simonm223|talk]]) 18:51, 14 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::::Carrying on, we have this chestnut: {{tq|For gender identity campaigners, simply asserting that sex exists as a meaningful category, distinct from people’s self-declared ‘gender identity’, is deemed transphobic. Lobby groups such as Stonewall demand affirmation of the mantra ‘Trans Women Are Women’, with explicit and repeated calls for ‘No debate’. The statement ‘Trans Women Are Women’ could be assumed to be a polite fiction.}} Which is both deeply inaccurate, deliberately disingenuous with its interpretation of what "trans women are women" means and also pretty bloody bigoted to boot such as the language it uses to position [[Stonewall (charity)]]. [[User:Simonm223|Simonm223]] ([[User talk:Simonm223|talk]]) 18:59, 14 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::::I would give this line {{tq|In practice, the kinds of statements that routinely lead to people (overwhelmingly women) being denounced as transphobes include:}} a big old {{citation needed}} tag if it were in a Wikipedia article. Since, you know, it makes a factual claim with absolutely no citation nor evidence. [[User:Simonm223|Simonm223]] ([[User talk:Simonm223|talk]]) 19:02, 14 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::Over and over Suissa and Sullivan make the claim, unsupported by evidence, that the ideology of Stonewall and another trans rights charity erases, eliminates or obviates sex as a protected category. This is a factually inaccurate statement and is, frankly, a [[WP:FRINGE]] view within politics, social sciences and philosophy regarding the relationship between sex and gender and how trans rights legislation goes about protecting the rights of trans people. This is what I mean when I say it's fringe. The whole paper, front to back, is fringe. And, in fact, had such slap-dash research quality that the press had to issue a factual correction. [[User:Simonm223|Simonm223]] ([[User talk:Simonm223|talk]]) 19:09, 14 May 2024 (UTC) |
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{{unindent}}My draft uses that source as a reference for: "[Rowling] received insults and threats". Not a single part of [[WP:FRINGE]] or [[WP:PROFRINGE]] is relevant.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 19:31, 14 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:The question is whether the source, as a fringe source, should be used when another, non-fringe, source would suffice for that particular piece of copy. I don't think anyone is objecting to the claim that Rowling was insulted and may have even faced threats. [[User:Simonm223|Simonm223]] ([[User talk:Simonm223|talk]]) 19:50, 14 May 2024 (UTC) |
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I'm not quite sure where to add this and how so if anyone can, please do. I've also posted this in the talk pages of [[Harry Potter]] and the [[seventh book|Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows]]. [[User:Berserkerz Crit|Berserkerz Crit]] 18:44, 7 August 2007 (UTC) |
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:I mean, if it's not a reliable source, we shouldn't use it to source anything. [[User:LokiTheLiar|Loki]] ([[User talk:LokiTheLiar|talk]]) 21:37, 14 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::I'd also question whether it's even a great source for citing the information it's meant to. Quote the text in Suissa and Sullivan that supports that point. <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em; class=texhtml">'''[[User:Adam Cuerden|Adam Cuerden]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Adam Cuerden|talk]])</sup><sub>Has about 8.9% of all [[WP:FP|FPs]].</sub></span> 22:25, 14 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Okay! I've said "Rowling received insults and threats". Suissa and Sullivan p. 69 supports the insult part of that, which if you read it, is specifically that Rowling got told to "choke on a basket of dicks". Among many other things. Because that's the level of discourse you get on Twitter.{{pb}}Anyway, at issue here is whether Suissa and Sullivan is a reliable source for the claim being made. You have identified that it's not an impartial source. As you rightly say, it has a POV. Predictably, Wikipedia has a rule about that. The rule says that Wikipedia articles have to be neutral, but sources don't. Good sources are by experts and experts ''always'' have a POV. Our task, as Wikipedians, is to construct a NPOV article from POV sources. (This is all written up in WP:RS, and specifically the paragraph at [[WP:BIASEDSOURCES]].){{pb}}It's also true that some sources are just unreliable for ''any claim at all''. We call those sources "deprecated" and they include for example the Daily Mail. The Daily Mail isn't unreliable for being a horrible Tory rag full of ghastly right-wing opinions (even though it definitely is). We don't deprecate other horrible Tory rags full of ghastly right-wing opinions. We deprecate the Daily Mail because it has a history of straight up lying, publishing stuff its so-called journalists made up in their lunch breaks.{{pb}}Where a source is an academic or professional journalist, to deprecate it needs an ''extraordinary'' level of proof. The Daily Mail's complete sitewide deprecation needed three RfCs, [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 220#Daily Mail RfC|here]], [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 255#2nd RfC: The Daily Mail|here]], and [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 299#RFC: Remove "reliable historically" sentence from WP:RSPDM summary|here]], the third of which I personally closed in June 2020. If you want to say Suissa and Sullivan are unreliable for ''any claim at all'', then that's the kind of level of proof that Wikipedians demand.{{pb}}But if you want to say it's unreliable for the specific claim I'm making, then that's a normal use of a talk page and I'm all ears.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 22:36, 14 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::::That's not how any of this works. What you're describing is not [[WP:DEPS|deprecated]], it's [[WP:GUNREL|generally unreliable]]. "Deprecated" means that a source is both generally unreliable and we warn people whenever they try to add it. Even generally unreliable sources {{tq|should never be used for information about a living person}}, as this source is being used here. [[User:LokiTheLiar|Loki]] ([[User talk:LokiTheLiar|talk]]) 22:44, 14 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::::: It's not unreliable for the claim I'm making.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 22:58, 14 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::I see no policy-based reason for excluding the source or the content it's citing. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 23:01, 14 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::You yourself say that it ''only'' sources the insult part - and it literally only quotes one incident of it. So it doesn't even source half the content that's its ''only'' reason for being in the article in the first place. <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em; class=texhtml">'''[[User:Adam Cuerden|Adam Cuerden]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Adam Cuerden|talk]])</sup><sub>Has about 8.9% of all [[WP:FP|FPs]].</sub></span> 23:31, 14 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::I get that you don't like it, Adam, but this is a teachable moment. I can use a source without conceding to a single one of its biases.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 00:17, 15 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::::I don't think you ''should''. It's improving the prominence of a POV, Fringe source without any compelling reason, not even to properly source the phrase in question (as it only sources half). Insisting on including it is no different than someone putting in a spam link to vaguely cite some fact in an article. <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em; class=texhtml">'''[[User:Adam Cuerden|Adam Cuerden]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Adam Cuerden|talk]])</sup><sub>Has about 8.9% of all [[WP:FP|FPs]].</sub></span> 00:50, 15 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::I refer you to my answer of 14th May at 22:36, paragraph 2.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 11:13, 15 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::::::There's a bit of [[WP:IDHT]] going on here - our concern is not with whether Rowling was insulted - I am confident you can find plenty of reliable sources for that - the concern is that this source is [[WP:PROFRINGE]] and as such should not be used for a general comment about a [[WP:BLP]] regardless of whether the source should be deprecated. [[User:Simonm223|Simonm223]] ([[User talk:Simonm223|talk]]) 12:37, 15 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::::::: There's certainly plenty of IDHT going on here. Since you persist in claiming that the source is generally unreliable, I'll open a thread on WP:RSN about it later today, so we can collapse all this verbiage until it's archived.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 12:54, 15 May 2024 (UTC) |
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Revision as of 15:19, 15 May 2024
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Proposed text for "Transgender people" section
- Previous discussions and source dumps in Talk:J. K. Rowling/Archive 16.
I've tried to rework the "Transgender people" section. Here's what I came up with, but am not wedded to it, so it's okay if everyone hates it. Working on this section literally gives me migraines, so I've hit a wall for now and leaving up for discussion. The new sources (Whited & Henderson) didn't format as I wanted inside the cot/cob templates so it is as is. If someone knows how to fix, that would be great. I'd suggest we also consider pulling the "Transgender people" section out from the "Views" section and give it it's own level two section as we do with "Philanthropy". Maybe put it above "Philanthropy".
Also this page is overly long, but I'm not able to manually archive today. Thanks, Victoria (tk) 19:22, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
- Continued at #Discussion of first draft. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:19, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
- I hope we'll defer the discussion of changing the structure/flow of the article until we are closer to having a nearly-final draft of the Transgender section (the structure reflects a chronology from the Smith and Kirk sources of how her success led to fame and wealth led to philanthropy led to her being more willing to speak out on issues ... but placement of content can be discussed later). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:04, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
First draft
Current 454 words | Proposed (adds 19 words) |
---|---|
Rowling's responses to proposed changes to UK gender recognition laws,[1][2][a] and her views on sex and gender, have provoked controversy.[5] Her statements have divided feminists;[6][7][8] fuelled debates on freedom of speech[9][10] and cancel culture;[11] and prompted declarations of support for transgender people from the literary,[12] arts[13] and culture sectors.[14] When Maya Forstater's employment contract with the London branch of the Center for Global Development was not renewed after she tweeted gender-critical views,[15][16] Rowling responded in December 2019 with a tweet that transgender people should live their lives as they pleased in "peace and security", but questioned women being "force[d] out of their jobs for stating that sex is real".[16][b] In another controversial tweet in June 2020,[20] Rowling mocked an article for using the phrase "people who menstruate",[21] and tweeted that women's rights and "lived reality" would be "erased" if "sex isn't real".[22][23] LGBT charities and leading actors of the Wizarding World franchise condemned Rowling's comments;[24][25][c] GLAAD called them "cruel" and "inaccurate".[31] Rowling responded with an essay on her website[32] in which she stated that her views on women's rights were informed by her experience as a survivor of domestic abuse and sexual assault.[33] While affirming that "the majority of trans-identified people not only pose zero threat to others, but are vulnerable ... Trans people need and deserve protection", she believed that it would be unsafe to allow "any man who believes or feels he's a woman" into bathrooms or changing rooms.[33][34][35] Writing of her own experiences with sexism and misogyny,[36] she wondered if the "allure of escaping womanhood" would have led her to transition if she had been born later, and said that trans activism was "seeking to erode 'woman' as a political and biological class".[37] Rowling's statements – beginning in 2017[5][38][39] – have been called transphobic,[40][41] and she has been referred to as a TERF, a "trans-exclusionary radical feminist".[41][42][43] She has rejected these characterisations and the notion that she holds animosity towards transgender people, saying that her viewpoint has been misunderstood.[32][40][39] Criticism of Rowling's views has come from the Harry Potter fansites MuggleNet and The Leaky Cauldron;[44] and the charities Mermaids,[20] Stonewall,[45] and Human Rights Campaign.[46] After Kerry Kennedy expressed "profound disappointment" in her views, Rowling returned the Ripple of Hope Award given to her by the Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights organisation.[47] After the Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Act 2021 had come into force in April 2024, Rowling, who resides in Edinburgh, tested the law by posting on X a list of transgender women, and wrote that they were "men, every last one of them".[48] Police Scotland stated it had not received any complaints over the posts[49] and that "no action [would] be taken" as they were not illegal.[50][51] |
Rowling's views on sex and gender, have provoked controversy.[5] When Maya Forstater's employment contract with the London branch of the Center for Global Development was not renewed after she tweeted gender-critical views,[15][16] Rowling responded in December 2019 with a tweet that transgender people should live in "peace and security", but questioned women being "force[d] out of their jobs for stating that sex is real".[16][d] Harry Potter scholar Lana Whited writes that in the next six months "Rowling herself fanned the flames as she became increasingly vocal and, in a few cases, flippant about gender identity."[53] In another tweet in June 2020,[53] Rowling mocked the phrase "people who menstruate",[21] and tweeted that women's rights and "lived reality" would be "erased" if "sex isn't real".[22][15] Potter scholar Tolanda Henderson, self-described as "gender-queer...non-binary transgender",[54] writes the June 2020 tweet revealed Rowling's "stance that invalidates nonbinary people like me".[55] Her statements have shocked Rowling fans;[53] divided feminists;[6][7][56] fuelled debates on freedom of speech[9][57] and cancel culture;[11] and prompted declarations of support for transgender people from the literary,[58] arts[59] and culture sectors.[60] Rowling's statements[5][38][39] – have been called transphobic,[40][41] and she has been referred to as a TERF, a "trans-exclusionary radical feminist".[41][42][43] Criticism of Rowling's views has come from the Harry Potter fansites MuggleNet and The Leaky Cauldron;[55] and the charities Mermaids,[20] Stonewall,[61] and Human Rights Campaign.[62] After Kerry Kennedy expressed "profound disappointment" in her views, Rowling returned the Ripple of Hope Award given to her by the Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights organisation.[47] LGBT charities and leading actors of the Wizarding World franchise condemned Rowling's comments;[24][25][e] GLAAD called them "cruel" and "inaccurate".[31] She rejected these characterisations and the notion that she is transphobic,[32][40] in an essay she posted to her website on June 10, 2020,[32] where she stated that her views on women's rights were informed by her experience as a survivor of domestic abuse and sexual assault.[33] While affirming that "the majority of trans-identified people not only pose zero threat to others, but are vulnerable ... Trans people need and deserve protection",[33][66][67] she believes that public spaces, such as restrooms, should only be "same-gender space".[68] Of her own experiences with sexism and misogyny,[69] she asks if the "allure of escaping womanhood" would have led her to transition had she been born later, and said that trans activism was "seeking to erode 'woman' as a political and biological class".[37] Whited refers it to as a "public manifesto", which was the "final straw" for fans.[68] Literary scholars suggest that French literary critic Roland Barthes concept of "The Death of the Author" (to separate the author from the text) applies to Rowling;[70] Henderson believes the situation does not apply because Rowling "will not shut up" and that "trans-exclusionary themes [are] baked right into the text".[55] |
Discussion of first draft
I've (partially) fixed the source listings and the cot cob, and archived some of the long page for starting over (leaving a hat at the top of the new section), but there is still one glitch in the Whited source that will need to be repaired if we cite more than one chapter in the book. As an example, see here how we cited multiple chapters in Anatol, and in Berndt, but I am out of time to do that, and it's a lot of typing with sutures in my hand. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:16, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
- If the draft sucks it's not relevant and so far only the intro from Whited is used, and Henderson from the other book. I tried with the Anatol templates (harvc) but got lots of errors and either I spend time with text/s or with templates & decided text gets the limited time I have. Thanks a ton for fixing my many many errors - especially with a hand wound. Victoria (tk) 20:44, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
- We can fix the trivialities later ... thanks for doing the REAL work !!! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:48, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
- I feel the sequence of ideas should be: Say her views are controversial -- say in what way they're controversial -- then give the specific examples -- and then give Rowling's rebuttals. I'd also slightly simplify (e.g. "referred to as"--> "called") and somewhat reduce the number of semicolons. For a worked example of how I'd do this, please see my sandbox here.—S Marshall T/C 16:56, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
- Yep, that's exactly how it should be organized. I knew I'd lost perspective at some point & needed extra eyes. Thanks so much S Marshall for redoing it. We can probably paste that in as the next suggested draft. Victoria (tk) 18:53, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
- I have no objections.—S Marshall T/C 19:08, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
- Yep, that's exactly how it should be organized. I knew I'd lost perspective at some point & needed extra eyes. Thanks so much S Marshall for redoing it. We can probably paste that in as the next suggested draft. Victoria (tk) 18:53, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
- This draft does nothing to fix the main issue with this section, which is neutrality. I'm sorry, but we can't not mention that she consciously and repeatedly misgendered transgender woman in a section on her views on transgender people. It appears flat out dishonest, especially if we're going to spend a whole paragraph quoting her four-year-old essay, using mostly news sources from the day it was published, as the most recent expression of her views. WikiFouf (talk) 19:14, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
- Hi WikiFouf, so this is an iterative process & eventually we get to the point where everyone agrees. In my view, S Marshall's point re structure/flow is correct, so those changes should be made. As far as the refs for the four-year-old manifesto - that's covered in Whited & Henderson so all the old citations can be dumped & we can source to two 2024 high quality scholarly sources. Because those sources cover the manifesto, we really should too. As for the misgendering, if you're referring to India Willoughby - I thought about adding it, but the RfC seems to be failing. And, well, recentism. But the "She will not shut up" statement does cover the string of comments. We don't need a digest of her comments but an overview. Let's take this a single slow step at a time & see where we get? "Flat out dishonest" seems a bit strong, in my view. Especially given the last three days of migraines, so I'm basically ready to call it quits. You all can take it from here. Or scrub it all and begin new. Victoria (tk) 19:58, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
- For clarity, I wasn't saying that your intentions appear dishonest but that the text does, something which I stand by. If you missed it, she tweeted a list of transgender women weeks ago, including India Willoughby (again), Munroe Bergdorf as well as a handful of convicted sex offenders (for good measure), and wrote that they were "men, every single last one of them". Again, this is a section titled "Views [of J. K. Rowling] on transgender people". Misgendering is not just an insult towards an individual but a flat out rejection of transgender identity; that I even need to argue for its inclusion here is beyond me. WikiFouf (talk) 20:38, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
- Although I'm not delighted with WikiFouf's level of rhetoric, I do agree that Rowling's tendency to misgender trans people bears mentioning as a separate point. I'll add something to that effect to the draft.—S Marshall T/C 21:11, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
- The point I made was that omitting J. K. Rowling misgendering transgender people, in a section titled "Views [of J. K. Rowling] on transgender people", would appear dishonest. This is my honest concern. I did not call Victoria dishonest, I don't think that they are, I don't think being frank is low rhetoric. WikiFouf (talk) 21:53, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
- Don't worry, nobody here has any trouble at all understanding your point. For future reference: you can also say things less dramatically.—S Marshall T/C 22:37, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
- Wikipedia articles strive to reflect the highest quality sources and avoid recentism and news-style blow-by-blow reporting. That's what Victoria-- an experienced FA writer-- is striving for, so let's aim for constructive criticism and concrete draft proposals rather than wording that can be easily misunderstood on the internet. I see no consensus on this page for bringing in blow-by-blow news-style unencyclopedic recent newsy issues; text that will endure is the goal. Thank you Victoria; your first draft work is appreciated! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:24, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
- @SandyGeorgia After Kerry Kennedy expressed "profound disappointment" in her views, Rowling returned the Ripple of Hope Award given to her by the Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights organisation. LGBT charities and leading actors of the Wizarding World franchise condemned Rowling's comments; GLAAD called them "cruel" and "inaccurate".
- This whole bit is backed only by breaking news sources, I don't see anyone here asking for its removal.
- As for recentism, "writing without an aim toward a long-term, historical view", it isn't a blanket ban on anything recent. As far as I know, we have to actually talk about it, case by case. On my end, I have repeatedly explained why I believe her misgendering of trans women is important. If you believe it to be unimportant, please explain why. WikiFouf (talk) 03:23, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- WikiFouf, I'm fairly certain I already explained that on this page, but I understand if it was lost in the volume, so please pardon my repetition. During the FAR, several editors read all the scholarly sources. We strove to cover that which was covered by scholarly or the highest quality sources, and give that material its due weight, although there were some places where the FAR was constrained by the result of a poorly conceived but well attended RFC, and we were stuck with some bits. And we all acknowledged then that those bits would need to be rewritten as better sources become available. Because some of the scholarly sources aren't freely accessible, at times we also substituted in a high quality news source when the material we were citing was also due weight according to scholarly or high quality sources. I hope that, along with Victoria's response, answers the question. Perhaps you will read all five archives of the FAR to understand how the collaborative editing process worked towards consensus in a collegial environment that developed once people understood it was an iterative process. Have you accessed and read all the scholarly sources ? I believe your other concerns are being addressed in the second draft below, which is headed now in the right direction, but we need to make sure our content conforms closely to the sources. You can see below concrete suggestions for text changes and improvements. Robert F. Kennedy was Rowling's hero and role model; do you think her giving back the award is misplaced in the article? Do you want GLAAD removed? Then say so in the next draft with concrete suggestions and see if you can find consensus. The Willoughly issue has been on the page for days and has not found consensus; there is a better way to write encyclopedic content than RECENTISM, and much content can still be expanded at the sub-article, Political views of J. K. Rowling, keeping this article conforming with summary style for a broad overview article of a very large topic. Have you been able to do some expansion over there? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:59, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- Although I'm not delighted with WikiFouf's level of rhetoric, I do agree that Rowling's tendency to misgender trans people bears mentioning as a separate point. I'll add something to that effect to the draft.—S Marshall T/C 21:11, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
- For clarity, I wasn't saying that your intentions appear dishonest but that the text does, something which I stand by. If you missed it, she tweeted a list of transgender women weeks ago, including India Willoughby (again), Munroe Bergdorf as well as a handful of convicted sex offenders (for good measure), and wrote that they were "men, every single last one of them". Again, this is a section titled "Views [of J. K. Rowling] on transgender people". Misgendering is not just an insult towards an individual but a flat out rejection of transgender identity; that I even need to argue for its inclusion here is beyond me. WikiFouf (talk) 20:38, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
- Hi WikiFouf, so this is an iterative process & eventually we get to the point where everyone agrees. In my view, S Marshall's point re structure/flow is correct, so those changes should be made. As far as the refs for the four-year-old manifesto - that's covered in Whited & Henderson so all the old citations can be dumped & we can source to two 2024 high quality scholarly sources. Because those sources cover the manifesto, we really should too. As for the misgendering, if you're referring to India Willoughby - I thought about adding it, but the RfC seems to be failing. And, well, recentism. But the "She will not shut up" statement does cover the string of comments. We don't need a digest of her comments but an overview. Let's take this a single slow step at a time & see where we get? "Flat out dishonest" seems a bit strong, in my view. Especially given the last three days of migraines, so I'm basically ready to call it quits. You all can take it from here. Or scrub it all and begin new. Victoria (tk) 19:58, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
- Not SandyGeorgia, but as the author of the draft & the person who read the sources the section you quote After Kerry Kennedy expressed "profound disappointment" in her views, Rowling returned the Ripple of Hope Award given to her by the Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights organisation. LGBT charities and leading actors of the Wizarding World franchise condemned Rowling's comments; GLAAD called them "cruel" and "inaccurate", is all covered in the three or four 2024 sources I read. The Kennedy Award is covered; Daniel Radcliffe's comments are covered (leading actor); GLAAD is mentioned. I don't have the sources all open at the moment, but we can swap out the sources just as the sources for the other section you mentioned can be swapped. Personally I'd prefer to swap them as long as people okay with using far fewer sources. It's fine to put these things up for discussion in a collaberative and collegial manner. As for misgendering, I believe that's been added in the subsequent draft, so we can move on to that discussion and point out deficiencies there. Victoria (tk) 03:41, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- I sorta/kinda prefer leaving in freely accessible sources at times, for the benefit of readers, but that's not at all a sticking point for me. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:03, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- Maybe a bit of both would work? There are some sources I'd marked for removal, so let's add it to the list of things to do for the next draft & see where we end up. Victoria (tk) 17:37, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- I took the actors out of the notes, and actioned some other of WikiFouf's comments - will elaborate later. Am going blind again. Victoria (tk) 21:25, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- I sorta/kinda prefer leaving in freely accessible sources at times, for the benefit of readers, but that's not at all a sticking point for me. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:03, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- Not SandyGeorgia, but as the author of the draft & the person who read the sources the section you quote After Kerry Kennedy expressed "profound disappointment" in her views, Rowling returned the Ripple of Hope Award given to her by the Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights organisation. LGBT charities and leading actors of the Wizarding World franchise condemned Rowling's comments; GLAAD called them "cruel" and "inaccurate", is all covered in the three or four 2024 sources I read. The Kennedy Award is covered; Daniel Radcliffe's comments are covered (leading actor); GLAAD is mentioned. I don't have the sources all open at the moment, but we can swap out the sources just as the sources for the other section you mentioned can be swapped. Personally I'd prefer to swap them as long as people okay with using far fewer sources. It's fine to put these things up for discussion in a collaberative and collegial manner. As for misgendering, I believe that's been added in the subsequent draft, so we can move on to that discussion and point out deficiencies there. Victoria (tk) 03:41, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
Second draft
Rowling has controversial views on sex and gender.[1] Rowling's statements[1][2][3] have been called transphobic,[4][5] and she has been called a TERF ("trans-exclusionary radical feminist").[5][6][7] Her statements have shocked her fans,[8] divided feminists,[9][10][11] fuelled debates on freedom of speech[12][13] and cancel culture,[14] and prompted declarations of support for transgender people from the literary,[15] arts[16] and culture sectors.[17] Rowling has said she would rather go to jail than use a trans woman's preferred pronouns.[18]
When Maya Forstater's employment contract with the London branch of the Center for Global Development was not renewed after she tweeted gender-critical views,[19][20] Rowling responded in December 2019 with a tweet that transgender people should live in "peace and security", but questioned women being "force[d] out of their jobs for stating that sex is real".[20][a] Harry Potter scholar Lana Whited writes that in the next six months "Rowling herself fanned the flames as she became increasingly vocal and, in a few cases, flippant about gender identity."[8] In another tweet in June 2020,[8] Rowling mocked the phrase "people who menstruate",[24] and tweeted that women's rights and "lived reality" would be "erased" if "sex isn't real".[25][19] Potter scholar Tolanda Henderson, self-described as "gender-queer...non-binary transgender",[26] writes the June 2020 tweet revealed Rowling's "stance that invalidates nonbinary people like me".[27]
Criticism of Rowling's views has come from the Harry Potter fansites MuggleNet and The Leaky Cauldron;[27] and the charities Mermaids,[28] Stonewall,[29] and Human Rights Campaign.[30] After Kerry Kennedy expressed "profound disappointment" in her views, Rowling returned the Ripple of Hope Award given to her by the Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights organisation.[31] LGBT charities and leading actors of the Wizarding World franchise condemned Rowling's comments;[32][33][b] GLAAD called them "cruel" and "inaccurate".[39]
She rejected these characterisations and denies being transphobic,[40][4] in an essay she posted to her website on June 10, 2020,[40] where she stated that her views on women's rights were informed by her experience as a survivor of domestic abuse and sexual assault.[41] While affirming that "the majority of trans-identified people not only pose zero threat to others, but are vulnerable ... Trans people need and deserve protection",[41][42][43] she believes that public spaces, such as restrooms, should only be "same-gender space".[44] Of her own experiences with sexism and misogyny,[45] she asks if the "allure of escaping womanhood" would have led her to transition had she been born later, and said that trans activism was "seeking to erode 'woman' as a political and biological class".[46] Whited calls this a "public manifesto", which was the "final straw" for fans.[44] Literary scholars suggest that French literary critic Roland Barthes concept of "The Death of the Author" (to separate the author from the text) applies to Rowling;[47] Henderson believes this does not apply because Rowling "will not shut up" and that "trans-exclusionary themes [are] baked right into the text".[27]
Discussion of second draft
S Marshall the template that we used during the FAR for viewing drafts side-by-side is at User:SandyGeorgia/sandbox5#Draft_proposals; it makes it much easier to compare where we are versus what is being proposed. (Also, word count matters :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:21, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
- I get 466 words, compared to the 429 that were in the article before the edit warring, newsy edits started last month. I suspect 466 words can be justified as due weight relative to the new scholarly sources, and WP:SIZE would still be reasonable, but it would be good to hear from others on the size relative to her overall bio and work. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:40, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
Suggestions (it would be much easier to see the original and the proposed side-by-side):
- The original Duggan wording (her views on sex and gender have provoked controversy) was changed to "Rowling has controversial views on sex and gender." That's a significant difference: What does the source say? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:48, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
- Words can be trimmed and the issue above can be addressed by switching:
- Rowling has controversial views on sex and gender.[1] Rowling's statements[1][2][3] have been called transphobic,[4][5] and she has been called a TERF ("trans-exclusionary radical feminist").[5][6][7] Her statements have shocked her fans,[8] divided feminists,[9][10][11] fuelled debates on freedom of speech[12][13] and cancel culture,[14] and ...
- to ... (controversy is implied by rest of context)
- Rowling's stance on sex and gender[1][2][3] has been called transphobic[4][5] and she has been called a TERF ("trans-exclusionary radical feminist").[5][6][7] Her statements have shocked her fans,[8] divided feminists,[9][10][11] fuelled debates on freedom of speech[12][13] and cancel culture,[14] and ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:52, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
- Rowling has controversial views on sex and gender.[1] Rowling's statements[1][2][3] have been called transphobic,[4][5] and she has been called a TERF ("trans-exclusionary radical feminist").[5][6][7] Her statements have shocked her fans,[8] divided feminists,[9][10][11] fuelled debates on freedom of speech[12][13] and cancel culture,[14] and ...
- Is it possible to reduce overquoting here, without losing the thought? "Rowling herself fanned the flames as she became increasingly vocal and, in a few cases, flippant about gender identity." We should strive as much as possible to keep Featured articles in our own words (not always possible, and I'm terrible at it, but others might have ideas). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:56, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
- Rejig this to avoid tweet ... tweeted redundancy in the same sentence: "In another tweet in June 2020,[8] Rowling mocked the phrase "people who menstruate",[24] and tweeted that women's rights and "lived reality" would be "erased" if "sex isn't real".[25][19]" SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:58, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
- Potter scholar Tolanda Henderson,
self-described as "gender-queer...non-binary transgender",... not necessary. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:59, 21 April 2024 (UTC) - New paragraph, so ... She rejected these characterisations --> Rowling rejected these characterisations ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:02, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- (redundant) writes the
June 2020tweet revealed Rowling's SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:04, 22 April 2024 (UTC) - Serial commas were decided against in the FAR ... and denies being transphobic,[40][4] in an essay she posted to her website on June 10, 2020,[40] where she stated that her views ... can be adjusted in next draft. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:03, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- Vague "literary scholars" ... one source is cited, so is it Whited suggesting this, or is Whited citing others ? "Literary scholars suggest that French literary ... " SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:06, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- The source says: Rowling commented: “I’ll happily do two years if the alternative is compelled speech and forced denial of the reality and importance of sex.” Our text says: "Rowling has said she would rather go to jail than use a trans woman's preferred pronouns.") This needs work to better conform source-to-text integrity; if not possible, this might be an area where we might resort to a direct quote. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:59, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- Sandy these changes are fine, with a couple of caveats:
- The "fanned the flames" quote can maybe be trimmed and should be attributed. I understand re overquoting but in this case a Rowling scholar is making the statement, which in my view holds some weight. If you or others disagree, maybe we can just delete that sentence
- Tolanda Henderson's voice, in my view, is important, not only because they are a talented young scholar but because they are transgender, yet immersed in Rowling's work. That should somehow be signaled.
- "literary scholars" >> Barthes is mentioned in Whited's "Introduction" and also in her volume by the author of "Accio, Jo" (the one who did the survey of fan fiction); in Henderson's "A Coda", published in Cecilia Konchar Farr's Open at the Close: Literary Essays on Harry Potter", and in Konchar Farr's "Introduction" to that volume. Of the four essays I read it was mentioned four times. We can cite all four if needed. Or none. Or something.
- I didn't add the quote from the Independent, so leaving that for now.
- I'm scheduled for a brain scan tomorrow, so don't know when I can get back to all of this. If I'm not back tomorrow, they're easy fixes that anyone else can do. Victoria (tk) 02:06, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- I hope your brain comes out pretty :). My sutures come out Tuesday; maybe there will be a third draft up, consolidating all commentary, by Wednesday (too much typing for me until the hand works). On The Independent bit, I think the intent is heading the right direction (generalize), but she said something different. Hope you have good news in a few days! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:11, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- I haven't had a headache for two years or more but something about Rowling seems to spark them. It happened during the FAR too. I'm sure all is well, but the dr doesn't want to hear about the Wikipedia/Rowling/dense mark-up in the edit window excuses :) I will be back when possible. Good luck with the sutures. Victoria (tk) 02:38, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- I hope your brain comes out pretty :). My sutures come out Tuesday; maybe there will be a third draft up, consolidating all commentary, by Wednesday (too much typing for me until the hand works). On The Independent bit, I think the intent is heading the right direction (generalize), but she said something different. Hope you have good news in a few days! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:11, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- Ah, yes, that's reminded me why I don't touch featured articles. FA is its own subculture where everything I'd do elsewhere is always against some convention or guideline. Personally I prefer considering the new draft as a piece of writing in its own right rather than in comparison to a previous text, but going forward I will use the format.On the substance, I fully agree with both of you except:On point 1, I would defend my revision of the first sentence. Its purpose is to say what the issue is in simple terms and introduce the rest of the paragraph. It ought to be a simple declarative sentence in the active voice. The source is writing for scholars; but we're writing for curious, uninformed teenagers whose first language might not be English.On point 8, definitely don't string that many semicolons together. We're not writing eighteenth century literary fiction. If some authority has mandated "no serial commas there" then I'd tend to contest its reasoning.On point 10, I'm not summarizing Rowling's tweet. I'm summarizing the article about Rowling's tweet. We need a sentence about misgendering transwomen (nb: Rowling doesn't detectably do it to transmen).I'm happy to redraft if nobody else gets to it first!—S Marshall T/C 08:00, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- On point 1, we can avoid asserting something as fact in WikiVoice (which might not be supported by the source) by just rephrasing the whole construct as in point 2.On point 8, I'm not fussed about serial commas, but as we move towards a final draft, just something to keep in mind. Rephrasing usually resolves too many clauses. On point 10, we have a neutraility issue, since we're not reflecting what she actually said, or apparently thinks, if we take the context of her earlier statements together with that one quoted. What she seems to have said, in context, has been lost by some of the earlier deletions of content, which is why it's helpful to see side-by-side the last FA version (before the non-consensual changes started). The context of the quote in point 10 is about being "compelled" (by changes in law) to deny the reality of sex (wording she used earlier). This context of the change in laws was deleted by the non-consensual changes in the article, and by the time we reach point 10, we've now lost all context ... continued in response to Andrew below ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 11:45, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- The second draft does not seem neutral because it is one-sided – it presents criticism of the subject's views but fails to balance this with prominent support such as U.K. Prime Minister Backs J.K. Rowling.... The last word is not given to a VIP like Sunak but instead to some quotes by Henderson. But who is Henderson? The reader has look back to find that this is Tolonda Henderson who is not sufficiently notable to have a Wikipedia article. Their quoted views seem to be given undue weight because they are just cited to their own work rather than third parties. Andrew🐉(talk) 10:14, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- Well, I do think Victoriaearle's draft is right to give the last word to an academic study by an accredited Rowling scholar, rather than to a transparently politically motivated off the cuff remark by our unelected and totally-unqualified-in-sociology Prime Minister. In fact I see Victoriaearle's draft as excellent, needing only reordering and a few tweaks.—S Marshall T/C 10:48, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- @S Marshall: No prime ministers in the United Kingdom have been elected as such; being at all qualified in sociology is not a required qualification for the post. Bazza 7 (talk) 11:50, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for grasping my point.—S Marshall T/C 13:17, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- Accredited Rowling scholar? The draft gets the name wrong but they seem to be this person. They are still working on their PhD but have several masters degrees in a variety of fields such as religious studies. None of their theses seems to be about or related to Rowling and they declare that they are "no longer a Harry Potter scholar". Andrew🐉(talk) 15:50, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- I believe the text says Harry Potter scholar. The metric in literature is whether someone gets publishing and Henderson is being published very very early in their career. Whited cites them in the "Introduction" to her volume, so we can use her quote of Henderson's quote or just quote from Henderson. Fwiw, very view literary scholars have Wikipedia pages - not vastly published scholars such as Michael Reynolds who I use for Hemingway pages, so that's not a great metric. In my view Henderson's voice is valuable, so if consensus is needed to do so that process should begin before the next draft goes up. Victoria (tk) 17:47, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- @S Marshall: No prime ministers in the United Kingdom have been elected as such; being at all qualified in sociology is not a required qualification for the post. Bazza 7 (talk) 11:50, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- Andrew gives another example of why we should see the last consensus version side-by-side. The context of the criticism (changes in the law) and support has been lost in the rapid-fire, non-consensual editing that begin in March. The last good version I can find before all these changes is here; the context of changes in law, and the fact that Rowling's views also have support in some sectors got dropped and those were not cuts that gained consensus, rather that stuck because others didn't edit war them back in. I suggest in Draft 3 putting that version side-by-side with the new proposal for discussion purposes. I don't pay much attention to "who gets the last word"; prose flow is more relevant. But I do agree that we've lost some neutrality that was reflected in earlier versions, and points 1/2 and 10 need particular work to more closely reflect sources and context. It might help to keep in mind that this page has many watchers who remain silent while we are drafting and until we get closer to a consensual draft; when we do, if the text is non-neutral, watchers do speak up, and it won't gain support for insertion, so working collaboratively towards compromise is key. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:07, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- Well, I do think Victoriaearle's draft is right to give the last word to an academic study by an accredited Rowling scholar, rather than to a transparently politically motivated off the cuff remark by our unelected and totally-unqualified-in-sociology Prime Minister. In fact I see Victoriaearle's draft as excellent, needing only reordering and a few tweaks.—S Marshall T/C 10:48, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
I have some issues with the way this new version seems to present Rowling's perspective nand Whited's quote on the subject. This seems to set up an idea that the disagreement with Rowling is the views that she is at times flippant, rather than presenting the description set out by Whited (or something like that) as a relatively NPOV descriptor, while also noting what the actual criticism of Rowling that has been presented is. At present, this draft somewhat increases the existing issue that this section seems to be rather from Rowling's POV, more than neutral -- missing out that she's posting personal attacks on trans people seems somewhat crucial. (On a more minor point: I feel like the sentence talking about Forsttaer would do better by being phrased as "In December 2019, Rowling commented [on Maya who had...]" would frame things more accurately than starting a sentence with "When Maya's employment contract was not renewed, Rowling Responded", because the currently suggested phrasing implied Rowling's comments were a response to Forstater's contract not being renewed (Feb 2019) as opposed to responding to the outcome of the employment tribunal (December 2019). WorthPoke2 (talk) 17:20, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, I agree re Forstater, we need to explain that Forstater was let go for misgendering. That's in one of the sources I used. The "flippant phrase" will be cut for the next iteration. Thanks for posting these remarks - very helpful. Victoria (tk) 17:40, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
First sentence
Historic (20 words) | Proposed (8 words) |
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Rowling's responses to proposed changes to UK gender recognition laws,[1][2][c] and her views on sex and gender, have provoked controversy.[5] | Rowling has controversial views on sex and gender.[5] |
Sources
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|
My position is that the version to the right is the better opening sentence. It's a topic sentence. It's a simple declarative sentence. It simply and accurately summarizes the paragraph that follows. And I don't see how anyone who's read the sources could possibly dispute it? A reasonable alternative could be "Rowling's views on sex and gender are controversial".—S Marshall T/C 13:42, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- Quick comment and fwiw, my sandbox shows the first sentence as "Rowling's views on sex and gender, have provoked controversy", which is nice & declarative. It does look as though the gender recognition laws got cut b/c of word count, but it should probably go back in. It it mentioned on the sources. But I agree w/ S Marshall that it should start with a good declarative general topic sentence. Victoria (tk) 13:47, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- It's declarative but personally I might tend to prefer the active voice for a topic sentence? On the gender recognition laws—yes, you're right. How about two sentences? "Rowling has controversial views on sex and gender. She uses X and her blog to share her thoughts about them, where she has been particularly outspoken about changes to gender recognition laws."—S Marshall T/C 14:03, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- The Duggan source is attached to this sentence, but it's not very clear to me how "controversial" is all we're getting from that source for this opening sentence (MOS:CONTROVERSIAL), especially when this 2021 peer-reviewed article unequivocally states "Rowling’s personal, conservative views on sex and gender have recently been made abundantly clear through her repeated and escalating anti-trans commentary".
- If NPOV is the concern for not using "anti-trans" or "anti-transgender" as a descriptor for the years of continuous activism that the paragraphs that follow describe (despite the Duggan source using the term), we should at least consider gender-critical (which has been used by high quality news sources and herself to describe her views). Umdlye (talk) 16:28, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks, that's useful. I made a mental note to reread Duggan and to make notes. Whited does use gender-critical, so that can easily be slipped in. Victoria (tk) 17:35, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- Reiterating my thanks to Umdlye for checking the source for this. The words "controversy/contreversial" are not used in Duggan & the commentary (as frankly it is also to some extent in other critics) is framed in regards to the Rowling/Harry Potter fandom. The most relevant sentence is the one Umdlye mentions above
Rowling’s personal, conservative views on sex and gender have recently been made abundantly clear through her repeated and escalating anti-trans commentary
which only goes to 2020. So, yes, I think we should rethink how to start. Victoria (tk) 19:59, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- Second try
Historic (20 words) | Proposed (5 words) |
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Rowling's responses to proposed changes to UK gender recognition laws,[1][2][d] and her views on sex and gender, have provoked controversy.[5] | Rowling is a gender-critical feminist.[5] |
Sources
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Easy enough. :)—S Marshall T/C 22:02, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- I think we should have more sources but I also think that this is the best starting sentence proposed so far, and it's not close. Loki (talk) 22:38, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- Not working for me, as I explained in the third draft section. Removes context, and we already work in gender critical later in the text. Restore context first-- Rowling's statements refer to changes in laws. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 09:13, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, Sandy, I'm stuck on this. Could you be more specific, please? Is your position:
- That Rowling isn't a feminist?
- That she isn't gender-critical?
- That she's gender-critical and feminist, but not a gender-critical feminist?
- That she's a gender-critical feminist but we shouldn't just come out and say it?
- That she's a gender-critical feminist and it's okay to say so if we add more context?
- Thanks.—S Marshall T/C 13:05, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
Misgendering
- Context: A newspaper writes a speculative article about how a future Labour government could make misgendering into an aggravated offence, carrying a maximum sentence of two years at His Majesty's pleasure.
- Rowling tweet:
I'll happily do two years if the alternative is compelled speech and forced denial of the reality and importance of sex.
- A different newspaper covers the tweet, using the headline:
JK Rowling claims she would ‘happily’ spend two years in prison for misgendering a trans person.
- Proposed sentence about this:
Rowling has said she would rather go to jail than use a trans woman's preferred pronouns.
What's the NPOV issue here?—S Marshall T/C 14:29, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- It's not what she said, although it's what a (clickbait?) newspaper headline claimed. And context is missing. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:56, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- It looks fine to me. It's accurate. Simonm223 (talk) 17:59, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- If the sentence is prefaced with "Rowling has said" (as it is), it is false as written: she did not say that.[1] She said “I’ll happily do two years if the alternative is compelled speech and forced denial of the reality and importance of sex.” It would be true if attributed, for example,
(It's still not what she said, and may not even be what she meant or believes, but we can't know, so attribute this as The Independent interpretation of her actual words, which were much more qualified than implied in the news report -- and that's why we have to take care with news reports.) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:07, 22 April 2024 (UTC)The Independent wrote that "Rowling has suggested that she would 'happily' spend two years in prison for misgendering a transgender person".
- If the sentence is prefaced with "Rowling has said" (as it is), it is false as written: she did not say that.[1] She said “I’ll happily do two years if the alternative is compelled speech and forced denial of the reality and importance of sex.” It would be true if attributed, for example,
- It's not a matter of NPOV; it's a matter of accuracy. WP:QUOTEUSE recommends that "Editors of controversial subjects should quote the actual spoken or written words to refer to the most controversial ideas." So, it's best to quote such tweets verbatim rather than paraphrasing them. Andrew🐉(talk) 20:06, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- I'm a big fan of writing everything in WP:OUROWNWORDS. I think that we have to mean what the sources mean, but we don't have to say what the sources say.The sources are writing for their audiences—often scholars, with the best sources—but we're writing for our audience which is the general public. A decent Wikipedia article manages down its Flesch-Kincaid score. We ought to write clearly, using topic sentences, and preferring short words and simple indicative or declarative constructions. Let's not feel constrained to crib sources' wording. Our job is to summarize the source, not repeat it.—S Marshall T/C 22:20, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- I agree, there's a nuance. The phrasing makes it sound as if she would rather be jailed than use any trans woman's pronouns. Her tweet doesn't say anything about "any". Not to be the broken record but we have a much clearer, more widely covered and more meaningful quote to include: she tweeted a list of trans women and wrote that they were "men, every single last one of them". You can't get more concise than that —WikiFouf (talk) 02:56, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- I wouldn't be opposed to developing that idea instead ... at least it reflects exactly what she said. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 08:28, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- Rephrase #1
Rowling sees transwomen as men, and she often uses her twitter account and blog to say so. She has shared a list of transwomen with her followers, writing that they were "men, every single last one of them".[1] She declines to use feminine pronouns for transwomen.[2]
- ^ Harrison, Ellie (1 April 2024). "JK Rowling could be investigated by police for misgendering trans people, SNP minister says". The Independent. Retrieved 23 April 2024.
- ^ Chilton, Louis (19 October 2023). "JK Rowling claims she would 'happily' spend two years in prison for misgendering a trans person". The Independent. Retrieved 21 April 2024.
I know, it's bloating again.—S Marshall T/C 07:27, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- This doesn't provide context, and is still not what she said. The context, repeatedly, has been about changes in laws. That context was in the previous versions and should be restored, and we have to take great care to not put words in her mouth she hasn't said. It's possible to use preferred personal pronouns in one's daily personal interaction and not be opposed to doing so, yet still be opposed to laws that criminalize language. In the olden days, it was referred to as "freedom of speech". SandyGeorgia (Talk) 08:27, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- We have to explain why the trans community and allies are annoyed with Rowling. We can't do that fairly and accurately unless we discuss her refusal to stop misgendering people. We shouldn't give her tweet in full with all its weaselly self-justification because we only have 475 words. We have to reduce it to a hard-boiled nugget of telling it like it is.Hate speech isn't protected speech, and rightly so. Your freedom of speech doesn't extend to racism, sexism or homophobia. Whether it should extend to transphobia is a live debate and I can see both sides of that, but if your position is that Rowling's fundamentalism about it should be protected speech, then I respectfully join issue with you.—S Marshall T/C 10:35, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- I think "freedom of speech" is a red herring here because the facts are pretty clear that Rowling regularly does say transphobic things, including misgendering specific people, on Twitter and that's a big part of why people are annoyed at her. It doesn't matter if she is legally right that she can't be punished for it. That is not the notable part of her statement. Loki (talk) 13:46, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- We have to explain why the trans community and allies are annoyed with Rowling. We can't do that fairly and accurately unless we discuss her refusal to stop misgendering people. We shouldn't give her tweet in full with all its weaselly self-justification because we only have 475 words. We have to reduce it to a hard-boiled nugget of telling it like it is.Hate speech isn't protected speech, and rightly so. Your freedom of speech doesn't extend to racism, sexism or homophobia. Whether it should extend to transphobia is a live debate and I can see both sides of that, but if your position is that Rowling's fundamentalism about it should be protected speech, then I respectfully join issue with you.—S Marshall T/C 10:35, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- From the sources it seems that she's reacting to the Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill and saying she'll misgender whomever she wants. Is this a correct reading? If so, then we have a scholarly source for the first part (Whited) and would need one for the second. Victoria (tk) 20:59, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- I think it's more general than the Gender Reform Bill? The Independent article is about Rowling's reaction to the Gender Reform Bill, but it says at paragraph 8:
Harry Potter author Rowling has frequently argued online that trans women are not women and last week vowed to continue “calling a man a man” despite what she called the “ludicrous law”.
This is accurate: she has frequently argued this online in several different contexts. In fact Rowling's gender-critical tweets go back before the Bill was passed. (It passed in 2021, but the law wasn't enforced until 2024 to allow time for enforcement training. Rowling's gender-critical behaviour goes back to December 2019, although at that time she was speaking much more mildly and hesitantly than she does now.)—S Marshall T/C 22:12, 23 April 2024 (UTC)- Yes, I understand that it's not new but because there are proposed sanctions my sense from across the pond is that it's escalating. Can we write something like,
Rowling continues to oppose gender self-designation,(cited to Whited p. 7)
and last weekvowed to continue “calling a man a man” despite what she called the “ludicrous law”.
(Independent) Basically the post about people who menstruate says it all, but I'm getting the sense it has to be spelled out? Maybe? I thought the Henderson quote that it invalidate "People like me" spelled it out, but maybe not? Word count is always a problem ... Victoria (tk) 23:31, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, I understand that it's not new but because there are proposed sanctions my sense from across the pond is that it's escalating. Can we write something like,
- I think it's more general than the Gender Reform Bill? The Independent article is about Rowling's reaction to the Gender Reform Bill, but it says at paragraph 8:
Third draft (3.2)
Current 454 words | Proposed 472 words |
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Rowling's responses to proposed changes to UK gender recognition laws,[1][2][e] and her views on sex and gender, have provoked controversy.[5] Her statements have divided feminists;[6][7][8] fuelled debates on freedom of speech[9][10] and cancel culture;[11] and prompted declarations of support for transgender people from the literary,[12] arts[13] and culture sectors.[14] When Maya Forstater's employment contract with the London branch of the Center for Global Development was not renewed after she tweeted gender-critical views,[15][16] Rowling responded in December 2019 with a tweet that transgender people should live their lives as they pleased in "peace and security", but questioned women being "force[d] out of their jobs for stating that sex is real".[16][f] In another controversial tweet in June 2020,[20] Rowling mocked an article for using the phrase "people who menstruate",[21] and tweeted that women's rights and "lived reality" would be "erased" if "sex isn't real".[22][23] LGBT charities and leading actors of the Wizarding World franchise condemned Rowling's comments;[24][25][g] GLAAD called them "cruel" and "inaccurate".[31] Rowling responded with an essay on her website[32] in which she stated that her views on women's rights were informed by her experience as a survivor of domestic abuse and sexual assault.[33] While affirming that "the majority of trans-identified people not only pose zero threat to others, but are vulnerable ... Trans people need and deserve protection", she believed that it would be unsafe to allow "any man who believes or feels he's a woman" into bathrooms or changing rooms.[33][34][35] Writing of her own experiences with sexism and misogyny,[36] she wondered if the "allure of escaping womanhood" would have led her to transition if she had been born later, and said that trans activism was "seeking to erode 'woman' as a political and biological class".[37] Rowling's statements – beginning in 2017[5][38][39] – have been called transphobic,[40][41] and she has been referred to as a TERF, a "trans-exclusionary radical feminist".[41][42][43] She has rejected these characterisations and the notion that she holds animosity towards transgender people, saying that her viewpoint has been misunderstood.[32][40][39] Criticism of Rowling's views has come from the Harry Potter fansites MuggleNet and The Leaky Cauldron;[44] and the charities Mermaids,[20] Stonewall,[45] and Human Rights Campaign.[46] After Kerry Kennedy expressed "profound disappointment" in her views, Rowling returned the Ripple of Hope Award given to her by the Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights organisation.[47] After the Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Act 2021 had come into force in April 2024, Rowling, who resides in Edinburgh, tested the law by posting on X a list of transgender women, and wrote that they were "men, every last one of them".[48] Police Scotland stated it had not received any complaints over the posts[49] and that "no action [would] be taken" as they were not illegal.[50][51] |
Rowling has controversial views on sex and gender.[5] She has been called transphobic,[40] called a TERF ("trans-exclusionary radical feminist") and a gender-critical feminist.[52][42][43] particularly since 2019 when she expressed support for Maya Forstater which sparked controversy, shocked her fans,[53] divided feminists,[6][7][54] fuelled debates on freedom of speech[9][55] and cancel culture,[11] and prompted declarations of support for transgender people from the literary,[56] arts[57] and culture sectors.[58] Rowling has said she would rather go to jail than use a trans woman's preferred pronouns.[59] Rowling wrote that she stood with Forstater, whose employment contract with the London branch of the Center for Global Development was not renewed after she expressed gender-critical views.[15][16] Rowling went on to write that transgender people should live in "peace and security", but questioned women being "force[d] out of their jobs for stating that sex is real".[16][h] Harry Potter scholar Lana Whited writes that in the next six months "Rowling herself fanned the flames as she became increasingly vocal".[61] In June 2020,[61] Rowling mocked the phrase "people who menstruate",[21] and tweeted that women's rights and "lived reality" would be "erased" if "sex isn't real".[22][15] Potter scholar Tolanda Henderson writes the June 2020 post revealed Rowling's "stance that invalidates nonbinary people like me".[62] There have been substantial negative effects to Rowling's reputation: fans turned away from her work, boycotted events, and publishers became reticent to accept her work.[63] Criticism of Rowling's views has come from the Harry Potter fansites MuggleNet and The Leaky Cauldron,[62] and the charities Mermaids,[20] Stonewall,[64] and Human Rights Campaign.[65] LGBT charities the Wizarding World spoke out against her stance.[24] Daniel Radcliffe, Emma Watson, Rupert Grint, and Eddie Redmayne and others expressed support for the transgender community.[66] GLAAD called the the comments "cruel" and "inaccurate".[31] After Kerry Kennedy expressed "profound disappointment" in her views, Rowling returned the Ripple of Hope Award given to her by the Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights organisation.[47] Rowling rejects these characterisations and denies being transphobic,[32][40] in an essay she posted to her website on June 10, 2020,[32] where she stated that her views on women's rights were informed by her experience as a survivor of domestic abuse and sexual assault.[5][33] While affirming that "the majority of trans-identified people not only pose zero threat to others, but are vulnerable ... Trans people need and deserve protection",[33][67][68] she believes that public spaces, such as restrooms, should only be "same-gender space".[69] Whited calls this a "public manifesto", which was the "final straw" for fans.[69] Beginning in 2020, literary scholars, including Tison Pugh and Whited suggest that French literary critic Roland Barthes concept of "The Death of the Author" (to separate the author from the text) applies to Rowling;[70][71] Henderson believes this does not apply because Rowling "will not shut up" and that "trans-exclusionary themes [are] baked right into the text".[62] |
Discussion of third draft
I've actioned many of the comments made on this page and encorporated into the next draft. There are still issues to be worked out & the text is growing, but this keeps it moving. Victoria (tk) 23:09, 22 April 2024 (UTC) P.s if anyone is interested, my work can be seen here. Victoria (tk) 23:12, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- I think this draft is a lot better than past drafts as far as WP:NPOV and covering recent sources goes, but a lot of the wording is awkward. I'd rather split up some of the longer sentences here. Loki (talk) 03:16, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- The Hate Crimes para doesn't belong in the current; it is not a consensual change, and we should be comparing to where we started before all those changes.[2].
- I'm thrilled that you pushed forward, but the word count is simply too high in relation to the overall size and weight of sources on her entire life and work. I agree with Loki on splitting some sentences, but first trimming will be needed.
- The context (changes of laws) has been eliminated, and stating Duggan's opinion as fact, before explaining the context and evolution of statements, could be leading the reader. We repeat gender-critical later, so that leading sentence isn't needed. Get the context first (changes in laws), then in to opinions of the scholars whose focus is on gender issues.
- I'm not sure we should use our precious word count on a laundry list of he said-she said, which was previously rejected; dropping that entire sentence will help contain the bloat.
- Pending still is to work out the sentence that she did NOT say; how about if we delete that sentence entirely, and the "lived reality" tweet in favor of the more recent tweet suggested by Wikifouf at #Misgendering? We might use the Hate Crimes para in some form to incorporate that tweet, which I agree with Wikifouf is a better way of summing up her most recent stance.
- How about if we trim some of her older statements like the "lure of womanhood" bit ?
- Overall, tightening is needed to this version, as well as getting back the context and keeping under 475 words. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 08:55, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- Re: point 3: when "gender-critical" is repeated in the first paragraph it is in the context of Forstater's views, not Rowling's.
- The draft writer was aiming for a simple declarative sentence to open the section. If we're considering the Duggan source not enough context for this declaration, shouldn't we be aiming to back it up more instead of returning to vagueness? I would like to stress that "gender-critical" in the context of the Duggan article is already nuancing the language used there, and it is a term Rowling has used to describe her own views. Umdlye (talk) 13:04, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
Just wanted to comment that the reference in this draft to Forstater misgendering a colleague is incorrect. I am unable to see the source quoted, so unsure where this comes from, but a reading of the court documents [3] [4] would show this was not the case as confirmed in this interview with her solicitor [5]. Daff22 (talk) 09:50, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- I'll admit I like the first sentence less in version three than in version two but it is, in general, very good. Simonm223 (talk) 13:17, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- We're now at version 3.1. I've commented out a few things here & will clean up later. It's easier for me to action quickly before comments get lost on talk. I went with the first sentence until we get consensus on it (speaking for myself, I like it), but, yeah, maybe the change in laws should be put back in. It's not in Duggan. I also went with misgendering as it was until we get a better source & agree on wording. Sandy which sentence/section are you referring to re "he said, she said"? Victoria (tk) 14:48, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- The bit about which actors support her or not ... we went over that several times during the FAR and decided it wasn't a good use of word count. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:47, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- I mean it certainly presents a pretty clear picture of an age-divide with regard to reactions to her antics; and I think it's also relevant that the three actors who were the central stars of the movie adaptation of her books all distanced themselves from her. Simonm223 (talk) 17:30, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- I think we need to reconsider the decision made during the FAR. In my view it's important to have at least Radcliffe mentioned b/c his comments made to The Trevor Project are covered in sources, and probably we should have Watson too. We could maybe slit the difference, mention some, shove others into a note. I hadn't considered Simonm223's point, but that's valid too. I'll add to unresolved issues. Victoria (tk) 19:58, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- My opinion is that the responses of Radcliffe, Watson and Grint are particularly relevant because of their prior position as something of mentees of Rowling's. However including that some of the older Potter actors supported Rowling would allow for some balance and neutrality rather than making it look like all the actors distanced themselves. So basically I'd strongly defend keeping in mention of the younger stars and would support mention of the older actors in the spirit of balance but don't see them as being as critical from a WP:DUE perspective. Simonm223 (talk) 20:02, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- I think you're right. When I was thinking about this, it seemed to me that having Harry, Hermione and Bellatrix agreeing is something. So if anything, I'd want to see Helena Bonham Carter, but the list as is seems ok. Let's see what others say. Victoria (tk) 20:13, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- @Simonm223 @Victoriaearle I would maybe suggest using the framing used by Sutherland Borah in Ivory Tower, who writes: "The films’ millennial-age stars—Daniel Radcliffe, Emma Watson, Rupert Grint, Bonnie Wright, Katie Leung, and Eddie Redmayne—expressed their support for the trans community." Mentions the three most relevant actors of HP (+ main actor of FB) without implying a consensus from the cast against Rowling's rhetoric, because it singles out the millennials. WikiFouf (talk) 21:40, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- Perfect! Thanks so much. Do you have a page number off hand? If not I'll access it a bit later. Victoria (tk) 21:45, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- Perfect, thanks! Simonm223 (talk) 22:12, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- p. 375 WikiFouf (talk) 22:31, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- I don't mean to rain on the parade, but I'm not at all satisfied with Draft 3, but don't have time to weigh in for a few more days. If I had time, I'd put up a Draft 4, but can't get to it just yet ... please remember that we need to come up with something that a broader audience will approve when we get to a point of putting it forward via something final, and I don't think we're headed that way just yet. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:00, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
- That's fine. I just put up the final one I'll work on. I wanted to do something with the reading I'd done, so jumped in while I could. We do need to work in the UK gender recognition laws (which needs linking), the misgendering needs to be sorted, and I'm not crazy about the stucture, but I'm a big believer in working the content until it's right. If it's going in the wrong direction, then we've discovered what we don't what. So it's all good. Victoria (tk) 02:20, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
- I don't mean to rain on the parade, but I'm not at all satisfied with Draft 3, but don't have time to weigh in for a few more days. If I had time, I'd put up a Draft 4, but can't get to it just yet ... please remember that we need to come up with something that a broader audience will approve when we get to a point of putting it forward via something final, and I don't think we're headed that way just yet. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:00, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
- Perfect! Thanks so much. Do you have a page number off hand? If not I'll access it a bit later. Victoria (tk) 21:45, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- My opinion is that the responses of Radcliffe, Watson and Grint are particularly relevant because of their prior position as something of mentees of Rowling's. However including that some of the older Potter actors supported Rowling would allow for some balance and neutrality rather than making it look like all the actors distanced themselves. So basically I'd strongly defend keeping in mention of the younger stars and would support mention of the older actors in the spirit of balance but don't see them as being as critical from a WP:DUE perspective. Simonm223 (talk) 20:02, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- The bit about which actors support her or not ... we went over that several times during the FAR and decided it wasn't a good use of word count. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:47, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- We're now at version 3.2, which has only small changes in response to today's comments. I've tweaked the first sentence a bit. Victoria (tk) 02:20, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
- I very strongly prefer "Rowling is a gender-critical feminist" to "Rowling has controversial views on sex and gender". The second version does not give any relevant information about what her views actually are, and also violates MOS:CONTROVERSIAL. Loki (talk) 03:22, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
- I agree, starting with something about what her actions are (or at the very least, why they're controversial) is more encyclopedic than just saying "her views are controversial". -sche (talk) 20:12, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
- Disagree, "gender-critical feminist" is one of various labels that have been used to characterize her views and singling it out wouldn't be NPOV. I think we should write something along the lines of "Her views have been associated with transphobia and gender-critical feminism" WikiFouf (talk) 22:30, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
- I'm treading carefully here because my personal opinion of what to call Rowling would probably violate BLP standards; which is why I've mostly left this distinction alone. But I think we may be over-thinking this a bit. I guess where I'd start would be an examination of how Wikipedia frames the TERF occupation of the term. And the answer is that Wikipedia frames the TERF occupation of the term quite well. As such I'd weakly support "gender-critical feminist," notwithstanding my personal misgivings regarding the incompatibility of gender-essentialism with feminism, provided the designation has a wikilink on it to the associated Wikipedia article. Simonm223 (talk) 12:50, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
- The various responses ("sparked controversy, shocked her fans ..."): were they to her comments generally or her support of Forstater in 2019 specifically? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 20:20, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
- Good question. First of all, I put that in as placeholder and changed from from this version because in my view we have to be careful re what goes in Wiki voice & at this point it's best for someone else to come up with the next draft. As to your question: recent scholarly sources say her support of Forstater shocked/alienated and to muddy waters even more, framed in terms of fans vs broader population. Victoria (tk) 20:35, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
- I very strongly prefer "Rowling is a gender-critical feminist" to "Rowling has controversial views on sex and gender". The second version does not give any relevant information about what her views actually are, and also violates MOS:CONTROVERSIAL. Loki (talk) 03:22, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
- The third draft concentrates on how Rowling's views have been received in the Harry Potter community and by diversity activists. But it says nothing at all about how this is playing in the wider world of mainstream UK politics. This is proving quite significant as the latest development is that the SNP leader now faces a vote of no confidence in which Ash Regan holds the balance of power. And Regan is very much an ally of Rowling. See JK Rowling may have the last laugh...
- This follows prominent statements of support for Rowling by both Conservative and Labour representatives – U.K. Prime Minister Backs J.K. Rowling..., Labour’s shadow justice secretary ‘agrees’ with JK Rowling’s ‘gender-critical’ views. It appears that Rowling is getting support across the political spectrum and so is quite influential.
- Andrew🐉(talk) 06:55, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- Not sure we can assume that's because "Rowling is influential" rather than just because both transgender rights supporters and gender criticals span the political spectrum, despite what the culture warriors would have us believe. – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 08:47, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
Potter scholar Tolanda Henderson writes the June 2020 post revealed Rowling's "stance that invalidates nonbinary people like me"
garden-pathed me the first few times I read it, how aboutPotter scholar Tolanda Henderson wrote that Rowling's June 2020 post revealed a "stance that invalidates nonbinary people like me"
. Also I don't think there's any need for the information about Forstater to be cleft in two by the "would rather go to jail" thing. – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 09:04, 26 April 2024 (UTC)- Discussion seems to have petered out now. Can we confirm that 3.2 is how we want to go? I still don't love it using wiki voice to call Rowling any kind of feminist but, as I was saying before, I'll accept it as long as it wiki-links to Gender critical feminist Simonm223 (talk) 01:18, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
- We could probably do some more work on it. I don't think that it's perfect yet, though it's definitely a large improvement. Loki (talk) 01:50, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
- It needs more work in my view. I'm tied with some spring projects & can't get back here immediately but I've been letting it percolate. I'm thinking it's gone too far in the direction of what others think of Rowling rather than focusing on what Rowling believes. Ideally, since this is her bio & a BLP, the latter should come first. When my time frees up, I can take another crack at it, but in the meantime more than happy if someone else gives it a try. Victoria (tk) 02:28, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
- Discussion seems to have petered out now. Can we confirm that 3.2 is how we want to go? I still don't love it using wiki voice to call Rowling any kind of feminist but, as I was saying before, I'll accept it as long as it wiki-links to Gender critical feminist Simonm223 (talk) 01:18, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
Fourth draft
Sincere apologies for the delay in posting this. I've re-ordered the ideas as well as cutting and rewriting.—S Marshall T/C 11:28, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
Historic (454 words) | Proposed (401 words) |
---|---|
Rowling's responses to proposed changes to UK gender recognition laws,[1][2][a] and her views on sex and gender, have provoked controversy.[5] Her statements have divided feminists;[6][7][8] fuelled debates on freedom of speech[9][10] and cancel culture;[11] and prompted declarations of support for transgender people from the literary,[12] arts[13] and culture sectors.[14] When Maya Forstater's employment contract with the London branch of the Center for Global Development was not renewed after she tweeted gender-critical views,[15][16] Rowling responded in December 2019 with a tweet that transgender people should live their lives as they pleased in "peace and security", but questioned women being "force[d] out of their jobs for stating that sex is real".[16][b] In another controversial tweet in June 2020,[20] Rowling mocked an article for using the phrase "people who menstruate",[21] and tweeted that women's rights and "lived reality" would be "erased" if "sex isn't real".[22][23] LGBT charities and leading actors of the Wizarding World franchise condemned Rowling's comments;[24][25][c] GLAAD called them "cruel" and "inaccurate".[31] Rowling responded with an essay on her website[32] in which she stated that her views on women's rights were informed by her experience as a survivor of domestic abuse and sexual assault.[33] While affirming that "the majority of trans-identified people not only pose zero threat to others, but are vulnerable ... Trans people need and deserve protection", she believed that it would be unsafe to allow "any man who believes or feels he's a woman" into bathrooms or changing rooms.[33][34][35] Writing of her own experiences with sexism and misogyny,[36] she wondered if the "allure of escaping womanhood" would have led her to transition if she had been born later, and said that trans activism was "seeking to erode 'woman' as a political and biological class".[37] Rowling's statements – beginning in 2017[5][38][39] – have been called transphobic,[40][41] and she has been referred to as a TERF, a "trans-exclusionary radical feminist".[41][42][43] She has rejected these characterisations and the notion that she holds animosity towards transgender people, saying that her viewpoint has been misunderstood.[32][40][39] Criticism of Rowling's views has come from the Harry Potter fansites MuggleNet and The Leaky Cauldron;[44] and the charities Mermaids,[20] Stonewall,[45] and Human Rights Campaign.[46] After Kerry Kennedy expressed "profound disappointment" in her views, Rowling returned the Ripple of Hope Award given to her by the Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights organisation.[47] After the Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Act 2021 had come into force in April 2024, Rowling, who resides in Edinburgh, tested the law by posting on X a list of transgender women, and wrote that they were "men, every last one of them".[48] Police Scotland stated it had not received any complaints over the posts[49] and that "no action [would] be taken" as they were not illegal.[50][51] |
Rowling is a gender-critical feminist.[52][42][43] She has often used Twitter and her blog to share thoughts on trans people, mostly in the context of proposed legal changes in Scotland that would make it easier to transition. She has said that "the majority of trans-identified people not only pose zero threat to others, but are vulnerable ... Trans people need and deserve protection",[53][54] but she opposes gender self-recognition.[55] She feels that some transwomen are a threat to women [56] and trans-positive messages can be a threat to children.[56] She has tweeted a list of transwomen, writing that they are "men, every last one of them". Many people, including some of the principal film stars connected with her work, have condemned her remarks,[57] although sales of Harry Potter books grew by 28% after she made them.[57] Controversy over Rowling's gender-critical messaging has developed over time. Although it started in 2017,[58] it became more fraught in 2019 when she expressed support for Maya Forstater,[59] whose employment contract with the London branch of the Center for Global Development was not renewed after she expressed gender-critical views.[15] Rowling wrote that transgender people should live in "peace and security", but questioned women being "force[d] out of their jobs for stating that sex is real".[16][d] Harry Potter scholar Lana Whited writes that in the next six months "Rowling herself fanned the flames as she became increasingly vocal".[60] In June 2020,[60] Rowling mocked the phrase "people who menstruate",[21] and tweeted that women's rights and "lived reality" would be "erased" if "sex isn't real".[61][15] Rowling's views have impacted her reputation. Fans turned away from her work, boycotted events, and publishers hesitated to accept her work.[62] Criticism of Rowling's views has come from the Harry Potter fansites MuggleNet and The Leaky Cauldron,[63] and the charities Mermaids,[20] Stonewall,[64] and Human Rights Campaign.[65] LGBT charity the Wizarding World spoke out against her stance.[24] Daniel Radcliffe, Emma Watson, Rupert Grint, and Eddie Redmayne and others expressed support for the transgender community.[66] GLAAD called Rowling's comments "cruel" and "inaccurate".[31] After Kerry Kennedy expressed "profound disappointment" in her views, Rowling returned the Ripple of Hope Award given to her by the Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights organisation.[47] Rowling rejects these characterisations and denies being transphobic.[32][40] In an essay she posted to her website on 10 June 2020,[32] she said her views on women's rights arose from her experience as a survivor of domestic abuse and sexual assault.[58][33] |
Discussion of fourth draft
I think we need to look carefully at what the sources are saying. For example, Steinfeld says J.K Rowling has been labeled a TERF (2nd para)(as opposed to saying she is); Schwirblatt says that one side of the Twitter community labeled her a TERF in reaction to her #IStandWithMaya tweet (p. 368); Whited says "Rowling’s manifesto led some people to label her as a trans-exclusionary radical feminist (TERF)", (p.7). This is the reason I kept changing the first sentence; sometimes in response to comments here, sometimes in response to sources. Bottom line is that we have to be careful what we put in Wiki voice. That's why hedging is good, though it does result in tortured prose. But that's often characteristic of writing here. Victoria (tk) 15:29, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
- Would we prefer "Rowling's views are gender-critical"? I'm looking for a simple declarative sentence without vagueness, evasion, or waffle of any kind.—S Marshall T/C 16:36, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
- I would support that if we feel like we need to for sourcing purposes, though I would say that we can use sources that phrase it like that to source "is a gender-critical feminist" in most cases. Depends some on the particular source, though. Loki (talk) 17:57, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
- It's a reasonable fallback. I can't imagine a good faith Wikipedian reading the sources and then denying that she's gender-critical. I'd prefer gender-critical feminist because our page on gender-critical feminism so clearly captures what Rowling says.—S Marshall T/C 19:37, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
- A couple of thoughts. First, we have to hew to the sources. If references exist for the sentence as written, then we should just swap out sources rather than use the ones that don't exactly support it. Another idea would be to use a three-pronged thesis, something along the lines of "Rowling's views about sex and gender have alienated fans, affected her reputation and [fill in the blank]". I suspect something like that would be easier to source.While I'm here a couple of other nitpicks: there's no source for the sentence "She has tweeted a list of transwomen, writing that they are "men, every last one of them". Right now it's cited to Pape but that article is about Ratcliffe if my memory is correct. Also, "principal film stars connected with her work, have condemned her remarks" is in the 2nd para & again in the 3rd. One mentioned should be deleted.The structure is looking much much better! Victoria (tk) 22:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, the duplication of principal film stars is one of my nitpicks, and I have a suggestion for how to fix it. If we're on the right track overall, maybe rather than add a list, I could just put up the next draft fixing these nitpicks? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 11:59, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
- Re: the inclusion of: 'She has tweeted a list of transwomen, writing that they are "men, every last one of them".':
- I think it's right that this incident is included because it's notable and there's not much point discussing her views on transgender people if we entirely omit what she's saying to and about transgender people.
- We should, however, be saying "trans women" rather than "transwomen".[1] A point of note is that "transwoman" is deliberately used as a dog whistle by people who deny trans people are of the gender with which they identify; per MOS:GIDINFO, we should use people's gender identity affirmatively. Using "transwomen" as a separate noun differentiates them from other, cisgender women. By contrast, "trans woman" is labelling someone as a woman who happens to be trans.[2]
- As mentioned, we also need to provide references for this sentence. Here are some first options to consider:
- "Police say JK Rowling committed no crime with tweets slamming Scotland's new hate speech law". AP News. 2 April 2024.
- Brooks, Libby (3 April 2024). "JK Rowling's posts on X will not be recorded as non-crime hate incident". The Guardian.
- "J.K. Rowling will not face action under Scottish hate crime laws, police say". Reuters.
- "JK Rowling in 'arrest me' challenge over Scottish hate crime law". BBC News. 1 April 2024.
- Beal, David Leask, James (2 May 2024). "JK Rowling challenges police: Arrest me under Scottish hate crime law". The Times.
{{cite web}}
: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link) - Sands, Leo (10 April 2024). "Scotland's hate speech law ignites culture war far outside its borders". Washington Post.
- A couple of thoughts. First, we have to hew to the sources. If references exist for the sentence as written, then we should just swap out sources rather than use the ones that don't exactly support it. Another idea would be to use a three-pronged thesis, something along the lines of "Rowling's views about sex and gender have alienated fans, affected her reputation and [fill in the blank]". I suspect something like that would be easier to source.While I'm here a couple of other nitpicks: there's no source for the sentence "She has tweeted a list of transwomen, writing that they are "men, every last one of them". Right now it's cited to Pape but that article is about Ratcliffe if my memory is correct. Also, "principal film stars connected with her work, have condemned her remarks" is in the 2nd para & again in the 3rd. One mentioned should be deleted.The structure is looking much much better! Victoria (tk) 22:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
- It's a reasonable fallback. I can't imagine a good faith Wikipedian reading the sources and then denying that she's gender-critical. I'd prefer gender-critical feminist because our page on gender-critical feminism so clearly captures what Rowling says.—S Marshall T/C 19:37, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
- I would support that if we feel like we need to for sourcing purposes, though I would say that we can use sources that phrase it like that to source "is a gender-critical feminist" in most cases. Depends some on the particular source, though. Loki (talk) 17:57, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
Sources
|
---|
References
|
- I do think it's important to provide context as to why she did make this thread: the perceived possibility that misgendering trans people might become illegal in Scotland under the new act. Although the threshold for criminality is a lot higher than a lot of people seem/seemed to believe, as discussed in the Washington Post article above and by Humza Yousaf who himself said he wasn't surprised her comments weren't criminal, she made this thread to be the one to take up the challenge over the chance such comments were now criminal. 13tez (talk) 21:17, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
- 13tez agree on your comments, but I am not finding the specific quote about "men, every last one of them" in the sources above ... which one has it ? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:36, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
- Ah ha ... found in The Guardian (my first preference for sourcing is usually AP or Reuters, but The Guardian works). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:38, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
- 13tez agree on your comments, but I am not finding the specific quote about "men, every last one of them" in the sources above ... which one has it ? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:36, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
- I do think it's important to provide context as to why she did make this thread: the perceived possibility that misgendering trans people might become illegal in Scotland under the new act. Although the threshold for criminality is a lot higher than a lot of people seem/seemed to believe, as discussed in the Washington Post article above and by Humza Yousaf who himself said he wasn't surprised her comments weren't criminal, she made this thread to be the one to take up the challenge over the chance such comments were now criminal. 13tez (talk) 21:17, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
- I'd prefer that alernate (16:36, 1 May) as well. Victoria's three-pronged idea works, too; I still dislike the declartive sentence in WikiVoice. And we don't know how she "feels"; we know what she has stated. Overall, I think this draft is headed the right direction. I've got my usual list of nitpicks that I'll put up if others agree that this draft is the way to go overall. I also want to point out that this kind of structured process works!!! If we get it close enough on the next version to call it final, we can ping the world for approval before installing, and then move on to using the same process to re-do the lead. Holding off on my list of nitpicks until others indicate this is close. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 11:44, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
- With a reminder that this is where we started (some elements are still missing). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 11:51, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
Fifth draft
Historical 429 words | Draft 5; 468 words |
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Rowling's responses to proposed changes to UK gender recognition laws,[1][2][a] and her views on sex and gender, have provoked controversy.[5] Her statements have divided feminists;[6][7][8] fuelled debates on freedom of speech,[9][10] academic freedom[4] and cancel culture;[11] and prompted declarations of support for transgender people from the literary,[12] arts[13] and culture sectors.[14] When Maya Forstater's employment contract with the London branch of the Center for Global Development was not renewed after she tweeted gender-critical views,[15][16] Rowling responded in December 2019 with a tweet that transgender people should live their lives as they pleased in "peace and security", but questioned women being "force[d] out of their jobs for stating that sex is real".[16][b] In another controversial tweet in June 2020,[20] Rowling mocked an article for using the phrase "people who menstruate",[21] and tweeted that women's rights and "lived reality" would be "erased" if "sex isn't real".[22][23] LGBT charities and leading actors of the Wizarding World franchise condemned Rowling's comments;[24][25][c] GLAAD called them "cruel" and "inaccurate".[31] Rowling responded with an essay on her website[32] in which she revealed that her views on women's rights were informed by her experience as a survivor of domestic abuse and sexual assault.[33] While affirming that "the majority of trans-identified people not only pose zero threat to others, but are vulnerable ... Trans people need and deserve protection", she believed that it would be unsafe to allow "any man who believes or feels he's a woman" into bathrooms or changing rooms.[33][34][35] Writing of her own experiences with sexism and misogyny,[36] she wondered if the "allure of escaping womanhood" would have led her to transition if she had been born later, and said that trans activism was "seeking to erode 'woman' as a political and biological class".[37] Rowling's continual statements – beginning in 2017[5][38][39] – have been called transphobic by critics[40][41] and she has been referred to as a TERF.[41][42][43] She rejects these characterisations and the notion that she holds animosity towards transgender people, saying that her viewpoint has been misunderstood.[32][40][39] Criticism of Rowling's views has come from the Harry Potter fansites MuggleNet and The Leaky Cauldron;[44] and the charities Mermaids,[20] Stonewall,[45] and Human Rights Campaign.[46] After Kerry Kennedy expressed "profound disappointment" in her views, Rowling returned the Ripple of Hope Award given to her by the Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights organisation.[47] As Rowling's views on the legal status of transgender people came under scrutiny,[4] she received insults and death threats[48][49] and discussion moved beyond the Twitter community.[50] Some performers and feminists have supported her.[50][51] Figures from the arts world criticised "hate speech directed against her".[52] |
Rowling has espoused views referred to as gender-critical.[53][54][55] She has often shared opinions on transgender rights, mostly in the context of proposed legal changes in Scotland that would make it easier to transition.[1][2][d] She has suggested that children and cisgender women are threatened by trans women and trans-positive messages.[56] In April 2024, responding to Scotland's Hate Crime and Public Order Act, she tweeted a list of trans women, writing that they are "men, every last one of them".[57] Her remarks have provoked condemnation,[5][11][58] while sales of Harry Potter books following some of her comments grew by 28% during the COVID-19 lockdown.[59][60] Controversy over Rowling's gender-critical messaging started in 2017.[61] It became more fraught in 2019 when she defended Maya Forstater,[62] whose employment contract with the London branch of the Center for Global Development was not renewed after she expressed gender-critical views.[15] Rowling wrote that trans people should live in "peace and security", but questioned women being "force[d] out of their jobs for stating that sex is real".[16][e] Harry Potter scholar Lana Whited writes that in the next six months "Rowling herself fanned the flames as she became increasingly vocal".[65] In June 2020,[65] Rowling mocked the phrase "people who menstruate",[21] and tweeted that women's rights and "lived reality" would be "erased" if "sex isn't real".[66][15] Rowling's views have impacted her reputation. As her views on the legal status of transgender people came under scrutiny,[4] she received insults and threats[48][67] and discussion moved beyond the Twitter community.[50] Fans turned away from her work, boycotted events, and publishers hesitated to accept her work.[68] Criticism came from the Harry Potter fansites MuggleNet and The Leaky Cauldron,[69] and LGBT charities Mermaids,[20] Stonewall,[70] and Human Rights Campaign.[1] GLAAD called Rowling's comments "cruel" and "inaccurate".[71] Leading actors of the Wizarding World spoke out against her stance;[24][25] Daniel Radcliffe, Emma Watson, Rupert Grint, Eddie Redmayne and others declared support for the transgender community.[72][f] After Kerry Kennedy expressed "profound disappointment" in her views, Rowling returned the Ripple of Hope Award given to her by the Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights organisation.[47] Rowling rejects these characterisations and denies being transphobic.[32][74] In an essay posted on her website in June 2020 – that Tolando Henderson[69] and Whited state left trans people feeling betrayed[75] – Rowling said her views on women's rights arose from her experience as a survivor of domestic abuse and sexual assault.[61][33] While affirming that "the majority of trans-identified people not only pose zero threat to others, but are vulnerable ... Trans people need and deserve protection", she wrote that it would be unsafe to allow "any man who believes or feels he's a woman" into bathrooms or changing rooms.[33][76][77] Whited asserted in 2024 that Rowling's sometimes "flippant" and "simplistic understanding of gender identity" had permanently changed her "relationship not only with fans, readers, and scholars ... but also with her works themselves".[78] |
Discussion of fifth draft
I think the fourth draft is a great improvement. In Draft 5, I tried to address the following (which I consider minor):
- Address the uncited statement "every last one of them" sentence.
- Address the lead declarative sentence.
- Work back in some of the laws so readers (particularly those not from the UK) are given some idea what these laws are.
- Fix duplicate on supporting actors.
- Threats to her safety which was deleted is supported by Whited
- Transwomen to trans women
- Address the word feels
- The broader introduction to this section in the article already addresses that she often/frequently uses twitter, so some redundancy there.
- Fix all the citation formatting to agree with the article style.
SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:39, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- PS, this statement needs a more concrete time frame: "although sales of Harry Potter books grew by 28% after she made them" ... I haven't had a chance to check Pape, but we should specify change from x year to y or something. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:44, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- Here's the source that Pape cites:
- Sweney, Mark (21 July 2020). "Harry Potter books prove UK lockdown hit despite JK Rowling trans rights row". The Guardian. Retrieved 3 May 2024.
- SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:52, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- Added, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:01, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- Here's the source that Pape cites:
- I'm afraid I'm going to bang on about starting each paragraph with a simple declarative topic sentence again. I think encyclopaedia writers are educators, and I feel it's important to write in an educational way. Introduce each idea before we explain it.
- The new draft's first paragraph begins with a compound sentence, which means a sentence with sub-clauses. Let's preface it with: "Rowling's views are gender-critical."
- The second paragraph begins with a compound sentence. We can fix that by changing "Controversy over Rowling's gender-critical messaging started in 2017, and became more fraught in 2019..." to "Controversy over Rowling's gender-critical messaging started in 2017. It became more fraught in 2019..."
- Done. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:20, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- The third and fourth paragraphs start well.
- I know I've said this several times, and I'm sorry to keep badgering on about it.—S Marshall T/C 12:08, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- I understand and respect some editors' desire for starting paragraphs with topic sentences, but I've seen it cause problems at other articles, where it led to accusations of OR. If my suggested first sentence is too complex, I'm confident better writers than I (which is almost everyone :) can fix that without using a declarative sentence that has other problems (for example, as in the fixes in your suggestion #2, which works). You're not badgering about it; I hear you, but disagree that the way one writes an essay is always the best way to write an encyclopedia. If those are your only two issues with Draft 5, we are making progress !!! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:12, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- Also, with the change suggested by 13tez, the first sentence no longer seems overly complex. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:04, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- Could you be more specific about what these "other problems" are? Rowling's views are, very clearly and obviously, gender-critical. I'm concerned that it could come across as POV if we're evasive or obfuscatory about this.—S Marshall T/C 15:10, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- Why label her in WikiVoice when the succeeding paragraphs make it possible for the reader decide ? Always write in a way that let's the reader decide ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:13, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- PS, in fact, that's quite why I like your rewrite in Draft 4 -- it sticks to saying what she said to let the reader decide. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:25, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- Because we're an encyclopaedia, so we have to write concise summary of our topic. I thought we'd agreed on "Rowling's views are gender-critical".—S Marshall T/C 16:00, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, per discussed here, where I continue my concern about the missing context (changes to and proposed laws). Her comments have consistently opposed changes to laws. I made this adjustment to hew more closely to discussion above. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:36, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- I only tonight realized that the fourth draft had taken the prior sources about "labeling her as a TERF", and used them for the declarative that she is gender-critical; we can't do that (and this is a BLP). All sources say "some labeled her" as a TERF. The first sentence will need work. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:00, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, per discussed here, where I continue my concern about the missing context (changes to and proposed laws). Her comments have consistently opposed changes to laws. I made this adjustment to hew more closely to discussion above. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:36, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- Because we're an encyclopaedia, so we have to write concise summary of our topic. I thought we'd agreed on "Rowling's views are gender-critical".—S Marshall T/C 16:00, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think
Always write in a way that let's the reader decide
is true, and in fact I think that's specifically bad advice a lot of the time. We don't "let the reader decide" whether Lee Harvey Oswald killed JFK or not, we just say that he did. - Similarly, we should not do a lot of hedging about whether Rowling is a gender-critical feminist if the sources say she is (and they do). Loki (talk) 16:31, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- See related comments here from Victoriaearle about how we are misapplying labels. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:37, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- Well, the choices seem to be, accept Sandy's watering-down or go to RFC. I don't mind which. If we accept Sandy's watered-down version then we should simplify "Rowling has used the internet to express gender-critical views" to "Rowling has expressed gender-critical views".—S Marshall T/C 16:41, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- As I said somewhere else on this page, it helps process-wise to focus on the good first, before moving on to the difficult. Are we yet at a place where, besides these few sticking points, we think we're headed in the right direction or where we want to be ? Spend some time finding where we agree before moving on to sorting disagreements. Overall, since Draft 4, I'm pleased with the direction, where we are doing more of letting her words speak for themselves, and less of he-said, she-said and lists of supporters and opposers, while also focusing better now on recent scholarly sources, with limited reliance on news sources or recentism. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:46, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- Also, trimmed (internet is stated in global introduction to the entire section anyway). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:49, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- Well, the choices seem to be, accept Sandy's watering-down or go to RFC. I don't mind which. If we accept Sandy's watered-down version then we should simplify "Rowling has used the internet to express gender-critical views" to "Rowling has expressed gender-critical views".—S Marshall T/C 16:41, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- See related comments here from Victoriaearle about how we are misapplying labels. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:37, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- PS, in fact, that's quite why I like your rewrite in Draft 4 -- it sticks to saying what she said to let the reader decide. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:25, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- Why label her in WikiVoice when the succeeding paragraphs make it possible for the reader decide ? Always write in a way that let's the reader decide ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:13, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- Could you be more specific about what these "other problems" are? Rowling's views are, very clearly and obviously, gender-critical. I'm concerned that it could come across as POV if we're evasive or obfuscatory about this.—S Marshall T/C 15:10, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- Also, with the change suggested by 13tez, the first sentence no longer seems overly complex. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:04, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- I understand and respect some editors' desire for starting paragraphs with topic sentences, but I've seen it cause problems at other articles, where it led to accusations of OR. If my suggested first sentence is too complex, I'm confident better writers than I (which is almost everyone :) can fix that without using a declarative sentence that has other problems (for example, as in the fixes in your suggestion #2, which works). You're not badgering about it; I hear you, but disagree that the way one writes an essay is always the best way to write an encyclopedia. If those are your only two issues with Draft 5, we are making progress !!! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:12, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
Minor tweaks
We've got five (5) instances of "expressed". Can we simplify all of them please? Suggest: find/replace "expressed the view that" to "said", "expressed support for" to "supported", and then "expressed that" to "said".—S Marshall T/C 09:56, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
- S Marshall I changed some others also. Does changing the first expressed to espoused (adopt or support as a cause, belief, or way of life) help address your concern that the first sentence is "watered down"? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:35, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
- I still aver that we should open with "Rowling is a gender-critical feminist". My position is that she's so undeniably gender-critical and so undeniably feminist that it's wrong to omit those words. If we absolutely must shy away from that, then okay, we should go to "Rowling has gender-critical views." With the full stop immediately after "views" and no tacked-on hedges or qualifications.—S Marshall T/C 17:31, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
- We still disagree on the first part (I hoped that espoused would help move us closer towards each other's position), but on the second part, where then would you work in the bit about which laws she opposed? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:32, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
- For the overview paragraph that comes first, I would write: Rowling has gender-critical views. She has often shared thoughts on trans people, mostly in the context of proposed legal changes in Scotland that would make it easier to transition. I'd push back the detail about which laws, specifically, to the history paragraph.—S Marshall T/C 22:58, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
- By the time I did all that, it was at 485 words (getting too long), so did this. Cuts the first sentence to a simple declarative, but had to make some cuts elsewhere (no meaning lost I hope). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:51, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
- For the overview paragraph that comes first, I would write: Rowling has gender-critical views. She has often shared thoughts on trans people, mostly in the context of proposed legal changes in Scotland that would make it easier to transition. I'd push back the detail about which laws, specifically, to the history paragraph.—S Marshall T/C 22:58, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
- We still disagree on the first part (I hoped that espoused would help move us closer towards each other's position), but on the second part, where then would you work in the bit about which laws she opposed? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:32, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
- I still aver that we should open with "Rowling is a gender-critical feminist". My position is that she's so undeniably gender-critical and so undeniably feminist that it's wrong to omit those words. If we absolutely must shy away from that, then okay, we should go to "Rowling has gender-critical views." With the full stop immediately after "views" and no tacked-on hedges or qualifications.—S Marshall T/C 17:31, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
Further queries
S Marshall what are we citing from page 17 of Whited here ??
- She opposes gender self-recognition,[55] ...
that page is the footnotes. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:03, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
- Take the Whited citation out, I suggest. Is it strictly necessary to cite that she opposes gender self-recognition?—S Marshall T/C 17:31, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
- S Marshall yes, I think so, because what she actually opposes is gender self-recognition as it applies to "legal" gender status without additional processes ... again, we have to get the context ... it's not individuals living how they want to live that she has opposed, rather the laws involved. That's why I was hoping to see exact wording from Whited ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:24, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
- She literally puts hashtag #notoselfID on her tweets.—S Marshall T/C 18:51, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
- We still need to source that statement. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:56, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
- Okay. According to this BBC article, the Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill would make anyone over the age of 16 who'd lived in their acquired gender for three months eligible to apply for a gender recognition certificate. This would remove the requirement for doctor's reports. At paragraphs 9 and 10, the BBC say:
- We still need to source that statement. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:56, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
- She literally puts hashtag #notoselfID on her tweets.—S Marshall T/C 18:51, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
- S Marshall yes, I think so, because what she actually opposes is gender self-recognition as it applies to "legal" gender status without additional processes ... again, we have to get the context ... it's not individuals living how they want to live that she has opposed, rather the laws involved. That's why I was hoping to see exact wording from Whited ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:24, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
It remains a hotly contested issue, however, with critics saying "self identification" would undermine the safety of women-only spaces. JK Rowling has previously argued the new law would harm the most vulnerable women.
Ms Rowling tweeted: "I stand in solidarity with @ForWomenScot and all women protesting and speaking outside the Scottish Parliament. #NoToSelfID."
- It's my position that this reduces to "Rowling opposes gender self-recognition", although if you want to go to "self-identification" instead (as closer to the source), then I would accept that.
- As a cross-check that this is a fair characterization of what Rowling really does say, I refer you to her blog post here, which says at paragraph 26:
The current explosion of trans activism is urging a removal of almost all the robust systems through which candidates for sex reassignment were once required to pass. A man who intends to have no surgery and take no hormones may now secure himself a Gender Recognition Certificate and be a woman in the sight of the law.
- I'd very much prefer it if this could be said without obfuscation or waffle, please.—S Marshall T/C 23:26, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
- I, as usual, second the desire to avoid waffling and obfuscation. The issues with this section as it stands are primarily an excess of WP:FALSEBALANCE and overly-complicated wordings that obscure simple facts. Loki (talk) 23:37, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
- On saying it simply, is that covered (now) with "proposed legal changes in Scotland that would make it easier to transition"? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:06, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
- No, it still doesn't say she opposes gender self-recognition anywhere that I can see.—S Marshall T/C 01:02, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
- Whited page 7 may work -- there are three moving pieces now, including the UK/Scottish law/legal stuff to fix, including the first declarative sentence, which was still pushing what the sources say -- see Victoriaearle at "Discussion of fourth draft"). We should keep in mind that this is a BLP and hew closely to sources, and avoid stating something as fact in WikiVoice. I'll work further on the Scotland legal bit and self-identification part tomorrow. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:43, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
- I very much agree that
not wanting to say something as fact in WikiVoice
is the main remaining hurdle we have here.—S Marshall T/C 16:03, 5 May 2024 (UTC)- S Marshall, now that Victoria has also weighed in, I'll move forward with Draft 6. Since all the earlier drafts were yours and Victoria's, I wanted to wait 'til I had heard from both of you before putting up the next, but we're at a point where we need a reboot on the talk page to see what's left! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:29, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
- PS, it's gotten hard to find what's left to do on this talk page :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:29, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
- I very much agree that
- Whited page 7 may work -- there are three moving pieces now, including the UK/Scottish law/legal stuff to fix, including the first declarative sentence, which was still pushing what the sources say -- see Victoriaearle at "Discussion of fourth draft"). We should keep in mind that this is a BLP and hew closely to sources, and avoid stating something as fact in WikiVoice. I'll work further on the Scotland legal bit and self-identification part tomorrow. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:43, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
- No, it still doesn't say she opposes gender self-recognition anywhere that I can see.—S Marshall T/C 01:02, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
- On saying it simply, is that covered (now) with "proposed legal changes in Scotland that would make it easier to transition"? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:06, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
- I, as usual, second the desire to avoid waffling and obfuscation. The issues with this section as it stands are primarily an excess of WP:FALSEBALANCE and overly-complicated wordings that obscure simple facts. Loki (talk) 23:37, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
- I'd very much prefer it if this could be said without obfuscation or waffle, please.—S Marshall T/C 23:26, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
Is this too-closely paraphrased from Duggan 161 ?
- and has implied that some transgender women are a threat to women and trans-positive messages can be a threat to children.[56]
SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:20, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
- The original reads: "[Rowling] not only suggests that trans individuals are a threat to women and that trans-positive discourses are dangerous to children". I weakened that to "some" transgender women and "can be" a threat to children, which is more consistent with what Rowling says. I'm certainly content for that to be rephrased in fewer words.—S Marshall T/C 17:31, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
- Not my strength, so I hope someone will give it a go ... it's a bit too close for comfort. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:25, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
- "Some" here feels too weak, especially when combined with "implied": evident in her actual words is a strong and repeated emphasis on the threat of trans women with some hedging sometimes. If we want to keep the word count down I'd just drop "some" and "can be". Otherwise I'd go with
and has suggested that children and cis women are threatened by trans women and trans-positive messages
. Loki (talk) 23:34, 4 May 2024 (UTC)- Did that, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:52, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
Citations to fix
- I looked at the Vanity Fair article being used as a reference for "Rowling rejects these characterisations and denies being transphobic." It's from 2023 and quotes her from a podcast she did rather than the article used as the other reference for this statement. I think the two following articles which touch on her same comments (in the podcast) might be better references than the Vanity Fair article:
- 13tez (talk) 00:14, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
- Agree; swapped in BBC as it is not paywalled and links endure. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:41, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
- The reference currently used to support "Criticism has come from ... Human Rights Campaign." currently has nothing to do with the HRC criticising Rowling. It's talking about Dave Chappelle saying he's "team TERF" and then says "TERF views 'deny the validity of transgender people and transgender identities,' said Sarah McBride, national press secretary for the Human Rights Campaign." We can substantiate the HRC criticising Rowling with this article instead.
- Similarly, Wizarding World isn't even mentioned in the reference used to substantiate "LGBT charity the Wizarding World spoke out against her stance."
- You'll probably prefer to use this article to substantiate GLAAD's comments rather than the current reference from USA Today. 13tez (talk) 00:31, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for checking those, 13tez; it had not occurred to me that our citations could have gotten corrupted in the journey. I will track back on these, if not today, then first thing tomorrow. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:26, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
- Human Rights Campaign: I used Milne, Reuters instead, as it is freely available and NYT is paywalled. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:44, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
- On Wizarding World, that got mangled in Draft 4 (it is not an LGBT charity); I've restored to what is in the article now, which is correct. My apologies for not seeing the error when I copied text from Draft 4 to Draft 5. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:18, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
- On GLAAD, USA Today is as reliable as AP -- why do the work to switch citations, since USA Today does verify the content? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:22, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
- USA Today is as reliable as AP -- why do the work to switch citations, since USA Today does verify the content?
- I've seen a widespread aversion to using references from news sources that aren't from the most reputable outlets (NYT, Reuters, AP news, The Guardian, etc) in past discussions and what you said above ("my first preference for sourcing is usually AP or Reuters"). I just thought you might prefer to use the AP article. 13tez (talk) 12:50, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
- OK, then ... will switch it in when next on real computer. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:21, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
- Done, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:26, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
13tez feedback
- We should probably change "Scotland's Hate Crime Law enacted in 2024" to "Scotland's Hate Crime and Public Order Act". There are multiple acts that make up Scotland's hate crime legislation, so we should be specific. We could retain the fact that it came into force in 2024, but the article on the act already covers that, and we're trying to summarise here.
- Should the section's content be in roughly chronological order or have more context as to when she said/did what? For example, her "April fool's thread" was this year and is at the start of the section, but she said "Trans people need and deserve protection" in 2020, and it is at the end of the section. Presently, you could easily be left with the impression that she said the former first and the latter later, even though the opposite is true and her comments have escalated over time. Could it make it easier for the reader to chart the change in her views and speech over time by having the contents of the section ordered chronologically rather than thematically?
- Should we rephrase 'She has tweeted a list of trans women, writing that they are "men, every last one of them".'? My thinking is that the specific quote isn't the biggest issue of her comments in this incident. Imho the bigger issue (when compared to her misgendering them) is that she listed famous trans women alongside sexual offenders who are also trans women in what has been called "an apparent attempt to draw a connection between trans people and sexual perversion".[1] Furthermore, it would enable the use of more of the possible references I listed earlier, which cover the incident without the specific quote, and which you've said before are your preferences for sourcing from news articles. Would it make sense to re-write it without the specific quote, but to summarise what she did to capture its spirit (listing famous trans women alongside trans women who are sexual offenders, mock them, and misgender them)? Should we also mention this was a response to the new act and speculation (albeit unfounded) that misgendering could become a criminal offence?
- Should we seek a higher-quality independent/secondary sources for the first sentence in the last paragraph ("Rowling rejects these characterisations...")? We're currently citing Vanity Fair and her own statement, which is obviously biased on if she's transphobic, and since we're not using it to reference direct quotes it would probably be better to use somebody else's analysis/summarisation of what she's said (in a reliable source) than to do so ourselves. Similarly, we could use this article to reference the fact that her essay was published on 10 June 2020 rather than the essay itself. 13tez (talk) 14:56, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
References
- ^ Lavietes, Matt (2 April 2024). "J.K. Rowling will not be arrested for comments about transgender women, police say". NBC News. Archived from the original on 3 April 2024. Retrieved 14 April 2024.
- Did the first. On the second, I tried to get chrono order in Draft 5, but couldn't make it work. On the third, suggest that be better explored in the sub-article ?? We're covering it broadly to avoid going too much into recentism/news sources, although it's too new for mention in a scholarly source. Will work on the fourth; we can do it without using news sources, since Whited 2024 covers her "manifesto", but since this is her bio, her own words should also be cited/linked as primary, backed by the secondary. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:12, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- 13tez if you could just add URLs on talk, that would help avoid the constant need to add reflist-talk to this page to avoid mucking up subsequent sections. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:16, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- Worked in secondary sources, added back some Henderson for more secondary analysis, but left the news sources for accessibility, since Whited is paywalled. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:44, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- Is "a background of proposed changes to UK gender recognition laws" definitely accurate? My own understanding had been that the issue was largely based on proposed changes to the law in Scotland. I remember reading that Rowling donated to a legal case seeking to overturn the inclusion of trans women in the broader category of women in a (pretty beige) Scottish law (Gender Representation on Public Boards (Scotland) Act 2018) after it was granted judicial review. I did have the impression that proposed legal changes were chiefly in Scotland since the UK government decided not to change the GRA in September 2020 and there has been a back-and-forth between the UK and Scottish governments over whether Scotland can pass acts of this kind (see Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill). Maybe this is an issue of timing if this was written before the September 2020 decision and while Rowling was voicing opposition to reforms? Certainly since the decision, however, Scotland is the only place gender recognition laws have had proposed or actualised changes. It might be worth mentioning Scotland has its own devolved Parliament which can pass bills on devolved matters, similar to states in the USA.
- Regarding what's said in the references used, the Reuters reference says "Rowling is unhappy that Scotland plans to relax the law". The Guardian says "she felt compelled to write about after reading of the Scottish government’s latest progress towards changing gender recognition laws." Pedersen says "a new women's cooperative constellation has been established in Scotland around the issue of the Scottish Government's proposed reforms of the Gender Recognition Act." Suissa says "in 2017, Rowling shared an article critiquing a proposed change to the United Kingdom’s Gender Recognition Act (2004), which was interpreted by some commentators as a change that would allow trans women to access women’s spaces, such as bathrooms". Duggan says "These debates about sex and gender are not abstract. In the UK, they have been triggered partly by proposed legislative change, in the form of changes to the 2004 Gender Recognition Act which would allow individuals to change their legal sex on the basis of self-ID, without meeting any diagnostic or other criteria."
- From what I can tell, Rowling was, circa 2017-2020, voicing opposition to proposed changes to the (UK-wide) Gender Recognition Act 2004 and that, since the UK government decided not to pursue such changes, she has been voicing opposition to proposed and actualised changes to the law (or even entirely new laws?) from the Scottish Parliament which are inclusive of trans women as women. Do you agree with this assessment, and do you think we should re-write the way this is described? I don't think it's accurate to say her opposition is to proposed changes to UK gender recognition laws since, as far as I can tell, it has mostly been to proposed and passed changes to gender recognition laws in Scotland. 13tez (talk) 16:14, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- No, I think it's accurate and reflected in the sources used; first it was UK Gender Recognition, then on to Scotland Hate Crime. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:31, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- Rowling has certainly voiced opposition to the Hate Crime and Public Order Act, which some incorrectly thought made misgendering trans people a criminal offence, but changes re gender law in Scotland also includes acts like the Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill, which sought to make it easier for trans people to change their legal gender, and the Gender Representation on Public Boards (Scotland) Act 2018, which includes some trans women (those with gender recognition certificates) in its definition of "woman". We probably need to find some references as to which specific laws, bills, and proposed changes she's spoken out against. Maybe relating to how she called Sturgeon an eraser of women's rights, IIRC. 13tez (talk) 16:50, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- I think the sources we have now cover it. We are already at 470 words ... an addition of 40 words. Can this detail be explored at Political views of J. K. Rowling? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:56, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- Here's what I was thinking of - Rowling called Sturgeon "destroyer of women's rights" over the Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill (which the Scottish Parliament passed but the UK gov later blocked). In that sense, she's voiced opposition to that bill, donated to a legal case trying to overturn trans inclusion in the Public Boards (Scotland) Act 2018, and tried to directly challenge the Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Act. This is far more opposition than she's ever made to proposed or actualised UK-wide laws: she only opposed possible reforms to the GRA while the consultation was ongoing, and the UK government is pretty much in agreement with her now.
- Re too many words, I'm not suggesting we explore each of these instances here. I'm suggesting we change "a background of proposed changes to UK gender recognition laws" to "a background of proposed changes to Scottish and UK gender recognition laws" since there are many more instances of her being opposed to a proposed change to Scottish law (and I'm sure I could go and dig out even more) than UK law. 13tez (talk) 17:04, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for this:
I'm suggesting we change "a background of proposed changes to UK gender recognition laws" to "a background of proposed changes to Scottish and UK gender recognition laws"
It helps to keep proposals brief and readable :) I will work that in as soon as I get a moment ... things suddenly got complicated around my household! But, since the United Kingdom includes Scotland, why would that not be redundant ? Would you rather we just add to the footnote to include a citation related specifically to Scotland? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:08, 3 May 2024 (UTC)- Scotland has its own devolved Parliament (separate from the UK Parliament) which can pass bills on devolved matters in a manner similar to states in the USA. In this sense, saying Scottish law separately is like saying the law of a state in the USA separately from the USA's federal law (sort of). Most of her opposition has been to acts and bills in Scotland, since she basically agrees with the current UK government on trans issues. 13tez (talk) 17:16, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- I'm going to be out the rest of the afternoon. I think we have the UK issue broadly covered in the UK footnote, and regardless if they ended up agreeing, her tweets were intially related to those UK proposed laws. Could you give me one high quality source that I could use to work in Scotland on gender recognition when I'm home later today? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:37, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not suggesting we cover her opposition to Scottish laws (separately or in detail), only to say that her opposition has been to "Scottish and UK gender recognition laws" rather than to "UK gender recognition laws" because most of her opposition has been to proposed changes to Scottish gender recognition laws rather than UK gender recognition laws.
- To make it more concrete, the three acts/bills which I mentioned Rowling opposing earlier are acts of the Scottish Parliament. This means they only apply in Scotland, and not the rest of the United Kingdom (England, Wales, and Northern Ireland). This is the sense in which they are Scottish gender recognition laws rather than UK gender recognition laws. Most of her opposition has been to changes in gender recognition laws proposed or passed by the Scottish Parliament. Therefore, most of her opposition has been to proposed (or implemented) changes in Scottish gender recognition laws. Her only opposition to changes in UK gender recognition laws (I can find) is when she only opposed the UK-wide proposal (dropped in 2020) of reforming the Gender Recognition Act 2004. She also opposed changes to Scottish gender recognition laws at that time. Since then, she has only opposed proposed changes to Scottish gender recognition laws because, as far as I can find, there haven't been any more proposed changes to UK gender recognition laws.
- "her tweets were intially related to those UK proposed laws"
- Her initial statements were not only related to proposed changes to UK gender recognition laws. In her June 2020 essay, she says "On Saturday morning, I read that the Scottish government is proceeding with its controversial gender recognition plans, which will in effect mean that all a man needs to ‘become a woman’ is to say he’s one." She is referring to the Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill. It's also mentioned in the references currently in use. The Reuters reference says "Rowling is unhappy that Scotland plans to relax the law so that trans people can change their birth certificates without having to provide a medical diagnosis." The Guardian says "she felt compelled to write about after reading of the Scottish government’s latest progress towards changing gender recognition laws." Pedersen says "a new women's cooperative constellation has been established in Scotland around the issue of the Scottish Government's proposed reforms of the Gender Recognition Act."
- "Could you give me one high quality source that I could use to work in Scotland on gender recognition when I'm home later today?"
- Please could you tell me what qualifies as a high-quality source? I've seen the term used in talk pages a lot, but I've never seen anything in WP:P&G that actually defines source quality.
- You might find these sources helpful:
- 13tez (talk) 18:42, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- 13tez I'm truly at a loss for what you want added and why so much discussion about it. The footnote already mentions the Scottish Gender Recognition Reform Bill that you want added (which as you note is discussed in the Reuters source already given), and since Scotland is part of the UK, I don't know how I can add the words "and Scotland" to that text without it being obviously redundant. Perhaps someone else is better able to understand what you're asking for, as I'm not seeing it. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:48, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- I'm truly at a loss for what you want added
- Thanks for trying to work through it regardless. I'm suggesting we say that her opposition has been to "Scottish and UK gender recognition laws" rather than to "UK gender recognition laws" because most of her opposition has been to proposed changes to Scottish gender recognition laws rather than UK gender recognition laws.
- Scotland is part of the UK, I don't know how I can add the words "and Scotland" to that text without it being obviously redundant.
- As discussed, the majority of her opposition to proposed or implemented changes to gender recognition laws has been within Scottish law passed by the Scottish Parliament, not UK-wide law passed by the UK Parliament. Even though Scotland is part of the UK, its devolution allows it to pass its own laws that don't apply to other parts of the UK. It's like how bills passed by the California State Legislature don't apply in any other state, so they're "Californian law" and not "American law", even though California is part of the USA. In the same way, Scots law only applies to Scotland, so it is not UK law. For example, The Alcohol etc. (Scotland) Act 2010 makes it illegal to buy alcohol in supermarkets in Scotland after 10PM, but being part of Scots law, this doesn't apply in any other part of the UK. It wouldn't make sense to call this "UK law" when it only applies in Scotland. I discussed it more above ("To make it more concrete..."). I appreciate this might be hard to understand because Scotland is part of the UK if you're not from the UK yourself, but it's a matter of correctness.
- Thanks! 13tez (talk) 23:09, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- It's hard for me to understand too, and I'm as British as roast beef. I don't see any equivalency with US state law vs US federal law. In the US state law is subordinate to federal law. The UK operates parallel legal systems: the Law of England and Wales, Scots law, and Northern Ireland which is its own thing again. None are subordinate. When you cross the Scottish border you enter a different legal world.—S Marshall T/C 19:00, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
- I really don't want to get bogged down in a political science discussion (perhaps we should move to a talk page?), but:
- None are subordinate.
- This is not true. There are reserved matters: areas in which only the UK Parliament can legislate and the devolved legislatures cannot.
- When you cross the Scottish border you enter a different legal world.
- Again, this isn't really true. Although Acts of the Scottish Parliament now apply to you, UK-wide legislation created by the UK Parliament still does as well. This is why Scotland has seats in the House of Commons. 13tez (talk) 19:46, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
- It's hard for me to understand too, and I'm as British as roast beef. I don't see any equivalency with US state law vs US federal law. In the US state law is subordinate to federal law. The UK operates parallel legal systems: the Law of England and Wales, Scots law, and Northern Ireland which is its own thing again. None are subordinate. When you cross the Scottish border you enter a different legal world.—S Marshall T/C 19:00, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
- 13tez I'm truly at a loss for what you want added and why so much discussion about it. The footnote already mentions the Scottish Gender Recognition Reform Bill that you want added (which as you note is discussed in the Reuters source already given), and since Scotland is part of the UK, I don't know how I can add the words "and Scotland" to that text without it being obviously redundant. Perhaps someone else is better able to understand what you're asking for, as I'm not seeing it. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:48, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- I'm going to be out the rest of the afternoon. I think we have the UK issue broadly covered in the UK footnote, and regardless if they ended up agreeing, her tweets were intially related to those UK proposed laws. Could you give me one high quality source that I could use to work in Scotland on gender recognition when I'm home later today? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:37, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- Scotland has its own devolved Parliament (separate from the UK Parliament) which can pass bills on devolved matters in a manner similar to states in the USA. In this sense, saying Scottish law separately is like saying the law of a state in the USA separately from the USA's federal law (sort of). Most of her opposition has been to acts and bills in Scotland, since she basically agrees with the current UK government on trans issues. 13tez (talk) 17:16, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for this:
- I think the sources we have now cover it. We are already at 470 words ... an addition of 40 words. Can this detail be explored at Political views of J. K. Rowling? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:56, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- Rowling has certainly voiced opposition to the Hate Crime and Public Order Act, which some incorrectly thought made misgendering trans people a criminal offence, but changes re gender law in Scotland also includes acts like the Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill, which sought to make it easier for trans people to change their legal gender, and the Gender Representation on Public Boards (Scotland) Act 2018, which includes some trans women (those with gender recognition certificates) in its definition of "woman". We probably need to find some references as to which specific laws, bills, and proposed changes she's spoken out against. Maybe relating to how she called Sturgeon an eraser of women's rights, IIRC. 13tez (talk) 16:50, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- No, I think it's accurate and reflected in the sources used; first it was UK Gender Recognition, then on to Scotland Hate Crime. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:31, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- On the second, I tried to get chrono order in Draft 5, but couldn't make it work.
- Yeah that's reasonable. Do you think it might be helpful to say when she said/did all this stuff, since it will be ordered thematically?
- On the third, suggest that be better explored in the sub-article ?? We're covering it broadly to avoid going too much into recentism/news sources, although it's too new for mention in a scholarly source.
- I'm not suggesting we should give a summary of the type I proposed as well as the quote currently included. I'm suggesting we replace the current text with a summary of the sort I proposed, so long as it's roughly the same length as the current sentence. I think this would give readers a better picture of what she said than what's currently included for the reasons I mentioned before.
- Will work on the fourth; we can do it without using news sources, since Whited 2024 covers her "manifesto", but since this is her bio, her own words should also be cited/linked as primary, backed by the secondary.
- I don't see why we shouldn't use news sources, but if you reference it from academia, that's fine. I think it's arbitrary. However, I think we should rely mostly on secondary sources because of WP:BLPPRIMARY and the following from WP:BLPSTYLE: "BLPs should be written responsibly, cautiously, and in a dispassionate tone, avoiding both understatement and overstatement. Articles should document in a non-partisan manner what reliable secondary sources have published about the subjects, and in some circumstances what the subjects have published about themselves." 13tez (talk) 19:14, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- Re
it might be helpful to say when she said/did all this stuff
, yes, absolutely; I know a few people are reluctant to add any extra words, but I think we can afford to include "in 2017", "in 2023", etc so people understand the chronology. -sche (talk) 21:56, 3 May 2024 (UTC)- -sche, I've just looked over the draft with an eye to adding dates, and I can't find a place where the dates aren't already included or implied. The first paragraph is an overview, and every other para seems to have dates where they are needed. Could you provide a concrete example where they are missing? It's good to avoid writing that reeks of WP:PROSELINE, which I hope we've done. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:39, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- I understand the reasoning to not include dates in an overview section. I was personally thinking of: She has tweeted a list of trans women, writing that they are "men, every last one of them." Even though we will want brevity in an overview, it's worth weighing that up against the benefit of making it more obvious how her rhetoric has changed over time by including the dates of her comments. 13tez (talk) 00:04, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
- Added date on that one (could you all start a new sub-section when you start a new issue-- following this discussion is getting very hard-- I think I got everything, but it's hard to tell). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:46, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
- I understand the reasoning to not include dates in an overview section. I was personally thinking of: She has tweeted a list of trans women, writing that they are "men, every last one of them." Even though we will want brevity in an overview, it's worth weighing that up against the benefit of making it more obvious how her rhetoric has changed over time by including the dates of her comments. 13tez (talk) 00:04, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
- -sche, I've just looked over the draft with an eye to adding dates, and I can't find a place where the dates aren't already included or implied. The first paragraph is an overview, and every other para seems to have dates where they are needed. Could you provide a concrete example where they are missing? It's good to avoid writing that reeks of WP:PROSELINE, which I hope we've done. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:39, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- Re
- Scots Law is certainly included in the phrase "UK law". This article definitely shouldn't try to explain the distinction between Scots Law and the Law of England and Wales, and it shouldn't try to summarize the competence of the respective parliaments. To avoid getting bogged down in that I do prefer "UK law", particularly when no law anywhere in the UK has the effect of doing any of the things at issue!—S Marshall T/C 23:30, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- I'm still at a loss; I added "Scottish and" to the draft, but I'm fairly certain that is open to criticism for redundancy. Should I now remove it again? This has seemed to be a full page of bogging down on something seems redundant, but maybe that's only me. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:46, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- Hey, thanks for your thoughts.
- This article definitely shouldn't try to explain the distinction between Scots Law and the Law of England and Wales, and it shouldn't try to summarize the competence of the respective parliaments.
- I'm not trying to, but almost all of her opposition to proposed gender-related legislation has been within Scots law. I just think that should be reflected by saying "Scottish and UK law".
- no law anywhere in the UK has the effect of doing any of the things at issue
- The Gender Representation on Public Boards (Scotland) Act 2018 includes trans women in its definition of women. Rowling has donated to a legal case brought by For Women Scotland seeking to overturn this. As discussed, it's one of several bills in Scots law she's publicly opposed.
- Scots Law is certainly included in the phrase "UK law".
- Scots law is one of the legal systems within the UK, but Scots law is different from the laws passed from the UK Parliament. It's honestly probably a semantical point and not worth discussing further: there are probably more productive things we could be talking about. At this point, I've explained my reasoning, so it's probably just best to let consensus decide and move on to something else.
- Thanks! 13tez (talk) 23:50, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- Ok, if you want to move on, but I want to register that I'm not able to follow your position on this and in fact think I'm misunderstanding you quite badly. You're surely aware that the Westminster parliament writes Scottish law, and that more Scottish law originates in Westminster than in Holyrood?—S Marshall T/C 00:55, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, I'm aware that many (not all) acts of the Parliament of the United Kingdom apply to the whole of the UK, including Scotland. I'd be interested to read an article discussing what proportion of Scots law is created in Westminster vs Holyrood, excluding common law.
- Political science aside, my reasoning to add Scottish law explicitly was that most of her opposition was to bills/acts of the Scottish Parliament which are exclusively part of Scots law, and a lot of her campaigning (for lack of a better word) has taken place within Scotland and to assist groups like For Women Scotland who are trying to change Scots law. This isn't relevant to the rest of the UK. This is ultimately because the Conservative UK government wouldn't propose or enact any gender identity law she would oppose, but the SNP Scottish government did several times. See exhibits A, B, and C.
- To me, the test is what you'd say if it was California (or another US state) and the USA instead of Scotland and the UK. Imagine she'd publicly opposed proposed and enacted Californian state law several times and opposed proposed changes to US federal law once. Would you say "Rowling has expressed gender-critical views against a background of proposed changes to Californian and US gender recognition laws" or just "US gender recognition laws"? If you're of the former opinion, we should say "Scottish and UK laws" and, in the latter case, just "UK laws". 13tez (talk) 01:33, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
- I agree with S Marshall re not following this at all, and it's taking a huge portion of this talk page. Please try to remember that Wikipedia's audience is global (not only beyond UK in the English-speaking world, but beyond the English-spearking world as well). For the huge majority of our readers (who may not understand what is going on in the UK with this whole matter anyway), complicating it with a further parliamentary issue isn't adding anything helpful. The UK includes Scotland, and the relevant laws are in the footnote for those readers who want to know what proposals were made and what laws were involved. We're risking now the talk page being so long that the earlier drafts -- which may contain bits we may want to revisit -- will soon have to be archived. I hope I have incorporated everything now (we're still stalled on the opening sentence), but it's become hard to follow the talk page as there aren't separate sub-heads for separate topics. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:52, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
- I agree with 13tez here, actually. It's not accurate to say that she objects to UK law if what she actually objects to is laws passed by the Scottish Parliament. Loki (talk) 11:27, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
- The current (Draft 5) mentions both (Scottish and UK). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:23, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
- Should we add the Gender Representation on Public Boards (Scotland) Act 2018 to the list of laws she's opposed? I say this because she's donated to a legal case trying to challenge its inclusion of trans women in its definition of "woman". If we are providing a list, it should probably be complete, unless we say "laws such as" or something similar to indicate it's an incomplete list. 13tez (talk) 17:33, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
- It doesn't strike me that specifically was part of the whole brouhaha; see footnote d, where everything there is cited to a scholarly source. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:50, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
- @SandyGeorgia, I'm (very) sorry that this is taking so much time, but we are now phrasing it differently: "legal changes in the UK/Scotland" now vs "Scottish/UK laws" previously. I think the former indicates geography and Scotland is in the UK, so its laws are in the UK (albeit only one part of it), so I think we can say "...mostly in the context of proposed legal changes in the UK that..." Even though all but one of these instances (as far as I can tell) was within exclusively Scottish law, she did also oppose proposed UK-wide legal changes too, so it wasn't just legal changes in Scotland. I think (hope), then, that we can probably all agree on: "mostly in the context of proposed legal changes in the UK that would"?
- I was proposing adding the Gender Representation on Public Boards (Scotland) Act 2018 to footnote d. You can read about her opposition to it in Political_views_of_J._K._Rowling#Transgender_issues ("In February 2024, Rowling donated £70,000 to a crowd-funding appeal..."). Is the footnote one of the places in the article where we're only using references from academia? 13tez (talk) 00:41, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
- Sorry to be repeating myself, but saying it once again. The scholarly/academic sources are provided to demonstrate issues that are covered in recent scholarly sources (due weight). We also sometimes, but rarely, use non-scholarly sources to provide accessible text when others are paywalled, more background, or out of necessity when a recent issue warrants it. I don't mind adding this content to the footnote; I would mind expanding the article body to include it, when it's not something mentioned in scholarly sources or that has received the amount of coverage other issues have (due weight). I'll add it in the footnote of Draft 6. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:26, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
- It doesn't strike me that specifically was part of the whole brouhaha; see footnote d, where everything there is cited to a scholarly source. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:50, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
- Should we add the Gender Representation on Public Boards (Scotland) Act 2018 to the list of laws she's opposed? I say this because she's donated to a legal case trying to challenge its inclusion of trans women in its definition of "woman". If we are providing a list, it should probably be complete, unless we say "laws such as" or something similar to indicate it's an incomplete list. 13tez (talk) 17:33, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
- The current (Draft 5) mentions both (Scottish and UK). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:23, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
- I agree with 13tez here, actually. It's not accurate to say that she objects to UK law if what she actually objects to is laws passed by the Scottish Parliament. Loki (talk) 11:27, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
- Ok, if you want to move on, but I want to register that I'm not able to follow your position on this and in fact think I'm misunderstanding you quite badly. You're surely aware that the Westminster parliament writes Scottish law, and that more Scottish law originates in Westminster than in Holyrood?—S Marshall T/C 00:55, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
- Can't we just link to Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill, which is mentioned in at least one source. Victoria (tk) 19:18, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
- We do; it's in footnote d, and has been since the FAR version. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:47, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
Feedback (Victoria)
A few remarks:
- First sentence - will revisit after re-reading sources (hopefully sooner than later)
- Maybe a bit of prose tightening for this phrase "She has often shared opinions on transgender rights" >> possibly try something like "She is vocal about transgender rights ...."
- "She has suggested that children and cisgender women" >> if she still believes this (which seems to be the case) then maybe consider writing in the present tense >> "She suggests that children and cisgender women ..." This would probably involve tense changes throughout & might need discussion
- Sales of Harry Potter books during Covid >> not sure it's needed & could be cut to save words
- 2nd para looks good
- 3rd para looks good
- Tolando >> Tolonda (I had to double check!)
That's all for now. Victoria (tk) 15:22, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks, Victoria; I was waiting for you before resuming, as the talk page has gone outta control. I will work your comments, and the stragglers left over from above, in to a new Draft 6, in a new level two heading, because we are now at a talk page length that will necessitate archiving of the five previous drafts. I feel more comfortable starting a new level 2 given that you seem broadly satisfied with the direction so far -- need a few hours to work in everything. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:27, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
- Sounds good. Victoria (tk) 15:46, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
- Continued at #Reboot: Draft 6 (near final). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:09, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
- Sounds good. Victoria (tk) 15:46, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
This sentence in the lead is very weasel word-y, isn't it? "expressed her opinions" is such a vague way of describing active attacks - it doesn't even make it clear if she's for or against trans people - and it goes on to carefully isolate criticism. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.9% of all FPs. 13:43, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- If you could please read the work progressing on the talk page, it would help towards not bloating an already lengthy talk page with dated commentary. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:10, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- I don't see how noting a particular point about the lead - and noting a tag being added - is redundant to other sections not talking about the specific wording. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.9% of all FPs. 18:52, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
- @Adam Cuerden I do not understand which of "She has publicly expressed her opinions on transgender people and related civil rights since 2017." are weasel words; especially as the following sentences contain [partial] information on how other people have interpreted these publicly-expressed opinions, and events which have followed. Bazza 7 (talk) 13:32, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- Nor do I, but since that phrase is nowhere in any of the proposed drafts, the section is just distracting from work being done. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:13, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- It's vague to the point of meaningless on what her views are. It's functionally identical to "She said something", not making it at all clear what her views are. Weasel words are using vague language that substitutes for actually saying anything on a point.
- As the lead stands, the transphobia section consists of two sentences, where the entire content is:
- "She publicly said some undefined opinions about transpeople since 2017"
- Some people don't like what she said.
- I mean, there's some attempts to list what groups dislike her views (some worked into the weasel word "critics"), but it doesn't really say anything about what Rowling actually said, thinks, or did. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.9% of all FPs. 21:14, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
- Nor do I, but since that phrase is nowhere in any of the proposed drafts, the section is just distracting from work being done. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:13, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Adam Cuerden I do not understand which of "She has publicly expressed her opinions on transgender people and related civil rights since 2017." are weasel words; especially as the following sentences contain [partial] information on how other people have interpreted these publicly-expressed opinions, and events which have followed. Bazza 7 (talk) 13:32, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- I don't see how noting a particular point about the lead - and noting a tag being added - is redundant to other sections not talking about the specific wording. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.9% of all FPs. 18:52, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
"Transgender people" section should be re-titled as "Transphobia"
Why are we white-washing her transphobic views? Representing overt transphobia as simply her "views on transphobic people" is reductive. It makes her views sound way more benign than they really are, violating NPOV in the process. 98.116.173.242 (talk) 02:42, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- No, it shouldn't. Because it labels her, and leaves no room in a section like that for any supportive or neutral views of transgender people, and this is a WP:BLP which must maintain a neutral point of view. There is no ban on representing her transphobia in a section entitled Views on Transgender people, and well-sourced content on her transphobic views are welcome in that section. The heading is fine as it stands. Mathglot (talk) 02:59, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- Reinforcing this - WP:BLP has a very specific and strident set of guidelines about how we can refer to a person and, in order for us to just say "Rowling is a transphobe," we would need the vast preponderance of reliable sources, including, in her case, academic sources to say "Rowling is a transphobe." Otherwise we simply cannot. That's why you'll see the fiddly and fussy discussions over minutia above. There's a pretty widespread sentiment right now that the article, as it stands, is not neutral or accurate regarding how Rowling has expressed her political views surrounding the rights of trans people. And a lot of effort is going into trying to correct that within the bounds of what we can do on Wikipedia. For more, though, we must use other venues than Wikipedia. Simonm223 (talk) 13:23, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- No it shouldn't, for reasons already explained. But since Rowling's comments have been made in the context of changes to laws, a more apt section heading would be something like Transgender rights. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:17, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- 98.116.173.242: This is an idea riddled with bias and cannot be accepted. I agree with @Simonm223, this page is very left-leaning and biased. I think it needs radical changes, personally. Scientelensia (talk) 14:21, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
- I think you should probably go back and re-read what I said. Because my concern is that it is not neutral in that it under-plays the extent to which Rowling is transphobic but that we should make sure that changes happen within the appropriate boundaries of WP:BLP. Simonm223 (talk) 14:57, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
Reboot: Draft 6 (near final)
- First five drafts can be reviewed at #Proposed text for "Transgender people" section; previous discussions and source dumps in Talk:J. K. Rowling/Archive 16.
Draft 6
NOTE!!!! I have reversed the order (draft vs. historical) compared to earlier versions because it's easier to edit with the draft first. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:53, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
Draft 6: 459 words | Historical: 429 words |
---|---|
Rowling espouses gender-critical views.[1][2][3] Since 2017,[4] she has written frequently about transgender rights, mostly in the context of proposed changes to UK gender recognition laws that would make it easier to transition without a medical diagnosis.[5][6][7][a] She opposes gender self-recognition[12][13][b] and suggests that children and cisgender women are threatened by trans women and trans-positive messages.[15] In April 2024, responding to Scotland's Hate Crime and Public Order Act, she tweeted a list of trans women, writing that they are "men, every last one of them".[16] Controversy over Rowling's gender-critical messaging accelerated in 2019 when she defended Maya Forstater.[17] When Forstater's employment contract with the London branch of the Center for Global Development was not renewed after she expressed gender-critical views,[18] Rowling wrote that trans people should live in "peace and security", but questioned women being "force[d] out of their jobs for stating that sex is real".[19][c] According to Harry Potter scholar Lana Whited, in the next six months "Rowling herself fanned the flames as she became increasingly vocal".[24] In June 2020,[24] Rowling mocked the phrase "people who menstruate",[25] and tweeted that women's rights and "lived reality" would be "erased" if "sex isn't real".[26][18] Rowling's views have impacted her reputation. As her views on the legal status of transgender people came under scrutiny,[9] she received insults and threats[27][28] and discussion moved beyond the Twitter community.[29] While her remarks provoked condemnation,[10][30][31] sales of Harry Potter books grew during the COVID-19 lockdown.[32][33] Fans turned away from her work and boycotted events, and publishers hesitated to accept her work.[34] Criticism came from the Harry Potter fansites MuggleNet and The Leaky Cauldron,[35] and LGBT charities Mermaids,[36] Stonewall,[37] and Human Rights Campaign.[5] GLAAD called Rowling's comments "cruel" and "inaccurate".[38] Leading actors of the Wizarding World spoke out against her stance;[39][40] Daniel Radcliffe, Emma Watson, Rupert Grint, Eddie Redmayne and others declared support for the transgender community.[41][d] After Kerry Kennedy expressed "profound disappointment" in her views, Rowling returned the Ripple of Hope Award given to her by the Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights organisation.[45] Rowling rejects these characterisations and denies being transphobic.[14][46] In an essay posted on her website in June 2020 – that left trans people feeling betrayed[12][35] – Rowling said her views on women's rights arose from her experience as a survivor of domestic abuse and sexual assault.[47][48] While affirming that "the majority of trans-identified people not only pose zero threat to others, but are vulnerable ... Trans people need and deserve protection", she wrote that it would be unsafe to allow "any man who believes or feels he's a woman" into bathrooms or changing rooms.[48][49][50] Whited asserted in 2024 that Rowling's sometimes "flippant" and "simplistic understanding of gender identity" had permanently changed her "relationship not only with fans, readers, and scholars ... but also with her works themselves".[51] |
Rowling's responses to proposed changes to UK gender recognition laws,[5][6][e] and her views on sex and gender, have provoked controversy.[10] Her statements have divided feminists;[7][52][53] fuelled debates on freedom of speech,[54][55] academic freedom[9] and cancel culture;[30] and prompted declarations of support for transgender people from the literary,[56] arts[57] and culture sectors.[58] When Maya Forstater's employment contract with the London branch of the Center for Global Development was not renewed after she tweeted gender-critical views,[18][19] Rowling responded in December 2019 with a tweet that transgender people should live their lives as they pleased in "peace and security", but questioned women being "force[d] out of their jobs for stating that sex is real".[19][f] In another controversial tweet in June 2020,[36] Rowling mocked an article for using the phrase "people who menstruate",[25] and tweeted that women's rights and "lived reality" would be "erased" if "sex isn't real".[60][61] LGBT charities and leading actors of the Wizarding World franchise condemned Rowling's comments;[39][40][g] GLAAD called them "cruel" and "inaccurate".[65] Rowling responded with an essay on her website[14] in which she revealed that her views on women's rights were informed by her experience as a survivor of domestic abuse and sexual assault.[48] While affirming that "the majority of trans-identified people not only pose zero threat to others, but are vulnerable ... Trans people need and deserve protection", she believed that it would be unsafe to allow "any man who believes or feels he's a woman" into bathrooms or changing rooms.[48][66][67] Writing of her own experiences with sexism and misogyny,[68] she wondered if the "allure of escaping womanhood" would have led her to transition if she had been born later, and said that trans activism was "seeking to erode 'woman' as a political and biological class".[69] Rowling's continual statements – beginning in 2017[10][70][71] – have been called transphobic by critics[72][73] and she has been referred to as a TERF.[73][74][75] She rejects these characterisations and the notion that she holds animosity towards transgender people, saying that her viewpoint has been misunderstood.[14][72][71] Criticism of Rowling's views has come from the Harry Potter fansites MuggleNet and The Leaky Cauldron;[76] and the charities Mermaids,[36] Stonewall,[77] and Human Rights Campaign.[78] After Kerry Kennedy expressed "profound disappointment" in her views, Rowling returned the Ripple of Hope Award given to her by the Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights organisation.[45] As Rowling's views on the legal status of transgender people came under scrutiny,[9] she received insults and death threats[27][79] and discussion moved beyond the Twitter community.[29] Some performers and feminists have supported her.[29][80] Figures from the arts world criticised "hate speech directed against her".[81] |
Sources
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References
Notes
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Discussion of draft 6
My intent was to work in everything mentioned under Draft 5, recognizing that the first sentence may still be a sticking point. My apologies if I missed anything (it's been quite a chore to keep up with this talk page :).
Going forward, could people please remember that we are now at a state which is approaching final and would like others to weigh in, so please try to keep your feedback chronological, brief, and within a separate fourth-level heading when starting a new issue. All that said, I think great progress has been made, in a collegial and collaborative environment!! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:53, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
- Sandy, for consistency with the previous drafts, I think these need to be flipped with the new one on the right and the historical on the left. Unless I'm missing something? Victoria (tk) 20:28, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
- I left a note about that at the top of #Draft 6; when editing to make changes, it's easier if the version being edited is first. I often had to start over, as I entered changes in the old version when trying to change the draft, so having the draft first is easier. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:08, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
First sentence: feedback needed
- This is a substantial improvement. I'd delete "espoused" without replacement, and I'd simplify "Beginning in" to "Since", and then I'm happyish with it.—S Marshall T/C 00:26, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
- Implemented beginning in --> since.. On the opening sentence, now that the rest of the para gives more context (the laws and the self-identification without diagnosis), I would probably be OK with that as well, but I'll wait to hear from others before implementing that change in the draft. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:48, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
- It reads okay without "espoused". If we keep it, suggest converting to present tense - "espouses". Lets see what others say. Victoria (tk) 13:29, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
- I prefer the version without "espoused", and I agree if we do keep it, it should at least be present tense. Loki (talk) 14:12, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
- Changed to present tense. On the rest, my concern is that we cite three scholarly sources who quite carefully do not label her as such, rather state that some do. Wikipedia does not lead; it follows sources. I'd feel much better about flat out labeling her if we had three scholarly sources which did that. (I've included the exact quotes from the sources; the reasons we can't label her flat out are already covered in the section just above this one, #"Transgender people" section should be re-titled as "Transphobia". And the section name should be "Transgender rights".) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:27, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
- Followup from WP:BLP:
"Material about living persons added to any Wikipedia page must be written with the greatest care and attention to verifiability, neutrality, and avoidance of original research."
In the interest of moving forward, I have attempted to find a compromise ("espouses views") for this area of disagreement. I have always been willing to install content developed by consensus on talk to the article even when I disagree with that content; I can't do that in this case, as without sources, I believe the proposed changes to the first sentence breach BLP. We can't label Rowling "gender-critical" in the absence of high-quality sources that do so. The sources we have so far do not do that. Our options at this point are: 1) find scholarly sources labeling her outright, 2) wait for more feedback, 3) someone besides me installs the draft should consensus form to add what I believe to be a BLP breach, or 4) run an RFC (do we install before the RFC, or wait a full month to get something installed, or find an interim compromise?). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:56, 6 May 2024 (UTC)- It's really important to be fully immersed in the sources to understand the nuances, and I'm not convinced an RFC would be helpful at this point. I'm fine with "espouses" because that's really the best that can be done with the sources. I'm wondering whether the sources support that she's outspoken? If so, can we simply say something along the lines that "Rowling has been vocal about her gender-critical beliefs". Sorry, I'm not feeling well today, so this is just brainstorming and an imperfectly framed idea and I don't have sources open to check, so feel free to ignore. P.s - thanks Sandy for the work on the talkpage - I got caught in a number of edit conflicts earlier. Victoria (tk) 18:22, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
- After walking away for a bit of perspective & then re-reading this evening, "espouses" seems fine to me. Victoria (tk) 23:17, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- Followup from WP:BLP:
- It reads okay without "espoused". If we keep it, suggest converting to present tense - "espouses". Lets see what others say. Victoria (tk) 13:29, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
- Implemented beginning in --> since.. On the opening sentence, now that the rest of the para gives more context (the laws and the self-identification without diagnosis), I would probably be OK with that as well, but I'll wait to hear from others before implementing that change in the draft. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:48, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
- Scholarly sources are written for scholars, so there are things they don't say.
- The sun is quite large and rather hot. But you won't find a paper in an astronomical journal that says so. The paper might give specifics of the sun's temperature at various depths, its diameter, its mass, its density or its circumference. But if you need to explain in a Wikipedia article that the sun is big and hot, scholarly sources are no good at all. Because the astronomy professors are writing for an audience that knows about stars, there are things they don't have to say and they don't waste words on.
- Therefore you need a source that says the sun is big and hot, you have to go to a non-academic source.
- But, Sandy, I want to ask you to stop and think here. If, as it seems, you can genuinely read the sources on Rowling and not think she has gender-critical views, then really, how objective are you about this?—S Marshall T/C 00:13, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- I agree with you that we shouldn't require scholarly sources specifically if we have good quality WP:NEWSORG ones. But I do sympathize somewhat with Sandy here: this is a featured article on a BLP and we do need to make sure we can clearly source everything we say about her. Loki (talk) 02:17, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- Re S Marshall, the "sun is hot" analogy doesn't apply to this situation for two reasons.
- We have three high-quality sources (that multiple editors seem to agree are good scholarly sources) that quite specifically are not silent on the topic, as an astronomy professor may be on whether the sun is hot. The academics we have so far do address the matter by specifically not saying that JKR is a TERF, rather they clearly state that some say she is, while others disagree. Silence on the "sun is hot" is not the situation here.
- Since the sun is not a living person, Wikipedia doesn't have a Wikipedia policy to make sure we don't defame it.
- We can't use lower quality sources to refute good academic sources that we have on this matter, and Wikipedia can't be the first to say something that high quality sources, when specifically addressing the matter, have not said as far as we know. Re your final question, perhaps you would stop and think about whether you want to be the first editor in several years to personalize a discussion on this, or the FAR, talk page? What any of us thinks is irrelevant; our content is guided by policy and sources. If there really are no scholarly sources or academics willing to label JKR a TERF, then we should be moving forward on an alternate way to frame the first sentence; compromise should not be hard, considering there are many ways to frame the sentence. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:51, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- All right then.
- We need one phrase that encapsulates J. K. Rowling's views on sex and gender. In draft 6, we've already decided and agreed that she:
- Opposes gender self-recognition;
- Accuses trans women of being men;
- Believes sex is real, or at least, warns of dire consequences of thinking sex isn't real; and
- Denies being transphobic.
- These are of course the precise views we cover in Gender-critical feminism, with a long string of academic references for the definition. But also at issue here is the law, and there's also a legal definition of what gender-critical views are, from the judgment in Maya Forstater -v- CGD Europe & ors. They include: The belief that sex is immutable and not to be conflated with gender identity... [which are] ...absolutist in nature and whereby... [Forstater would] ...refer to a person by the sex she considers appropriate even if it violates their dignity and/or creates an intimidating, hostile, degrading or offensive environment. According to the Tribunal, this is the element of gender-critical views that amounts to a protected philosophical belief. It's even more simply encapsulated (at page 3) as: the Claimant’s belief as to the immutability of sex. (This is the Law of England and Wales. Unfortunately for 13tez, Maya Forstater's case isn't about Scots Law.)
- Therefore, J. K. Rowling's views on sex and gender meet both the academic and legal tests for what a gender-critical belief is. QED.
- The objection is that a sufficiently academic source doesn't say so. Wikipedia does have a problem with this. We use hedges like: "[Donald] Trump's political positions are viewed by some as right-wing populist" (from Political positions of Donald Trump), because to say Donald Trump is a right wing populist in wikivoice would be sooo controversial.—S Marshall T/C 08:07, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- I feel it should be pointed out that this section "[Forstater would] ...refer to a person by the sex she considers appropriate even if it violates their dignity and/or creates an intimidating, hostile, degrading or offensive environment." is the Appeal Tribunal quoting the first instance judgement, and was an interpretation disputed in that appeal. The Appeal judgement found that "On a proper reading of the Judgment, the Tribunal was stating that the Claimant would not use preferred pronouns whenever she considered it appropriate not to do so. That must mean that she would not use them where she considered it to be relevant. If that is correct, then the description “absolutist” would appear to be something of a misnomer as her position was more nuanced and context dependent." Absolutism and an automatic rejection of preferred pronouns are not therefore part of the legal definition of the protected gender-critical belief in the UK. Daff22 (talk) 11:56, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- We need one phrase that encapsulates J. K. Rowling's views on sex and gender. In draft 6, we've already decided and agreed that she:
Unnecessary attribution ?
Re
In an essay posted on her website in June 2020 – that Tolonda Henderson[35] and Whited state left trans people feeling betrayed[12] – Rowling said her views ...
Could we drop the attribution, and make this just:
In an essay posted on her website in June 2020 – that left trans people feeling betrayed[12][35] – Rowling said her views ....
My impression is that this is a widely supported statement, so that the attribution is creating a false impression, not needed, and only clunking up the sentence. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:56, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
- Imv: Yes, drop it.—S Marshall T/C 18:02, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
- I agree we can drop the attribution there. Loki (talk) 18:03, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
- Done, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:55, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
Thoughts from Scientelensia
Regarding this part: “In April 2024, responding to Scotland's Hate Crime and Public Order Act, she tweeted a list of trans women, writing that they are "men, every last one of them".”
- Could it be changed to this (or a shorter version of it)? “After the Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Act 2021 had come into force in April 2024, Rowling, who resides in Edinburgh, took to X to criticise the bill, stating that "freedom of speech and belief" was at an end if accurate description of biological sex was outlawed. She further posted a list of transgender women, and wrote that they were "men, every last one of them".[1] Rowling also said: "Scottish lawmakers seem to have placed higher value on the feelings of men performing their idea of femaleness, however misogynistically or opportunistically, than on the rights and freedoms of actual women and girls."[2]”
My main criticsm of this draft (though it is much better than before) is that:
- The actors who didn’t support Rowling are in the main text, the others are merely a note. I understand the difference between main and supporting actors, but it does seem that those who oppose Rowling are being given more prominence. Intentions could be misconstrued. As for scholarly sources (which Sandy Georgia wanted; these are surely adequate I hope):[3][4][5][6] (for example). From Scientelensia (17:47, May 7, 2024)
- Another main criticism is that this paragraph…
- Fans turned away from her work, boycotted events, and publishers hesitated to accept her work. Criticism came from the Harry Potter fansites MuggleNet and The Leaky Cauldron, and LGBT charities Mermaids, Stonewall, and Human Rights Campaign. GLAAD called Rowling's comments "cruel" and "inaccurate". Leading actors of the Wizarding World spoke out against her stance; Daniel Radcliffe, Emma Watson, Rupert Grint, Eddie Redmayne and others declared support for the transgender community. After Kerry Kennedy expressed "profound disappointment" in her views, Rowling returned the Ripple of Hope Award given to her by the Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights organisation.
- …almost wholly only lists critics from organisations. No support for her has been mentioned at all, which arguably displays bias as there was a lot of support for her also. From Scientelensia (20:04, May 7, 2024)
- The last paragraph also fails to mention any praise for JK Rowling’s essay; only criticism. Only the views of trans people are considered. See for example: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-55350905. From Scientelensia (20:08, May 7, 2024)
References
- ^ "J.K. Rowling Mocks Trans Women To Defy Scotland's New Hate Crime Law: "I Look Forward To Being Arrested"". deadline.com. Archived from the original on 1 April 2024. Retrieved 3 April 2024.
- ^ "JK Rowling in 'arrest me' challenge over hate crime law". BBC News. 1 April 2024. Retrieved 8 April 2024.
- ^ "Ralph Fiennes: Verbal abuse directed at JK Rowling is disgusting and appalling". The Telegraph. 24 October 2022. Retrieved 13 December 2022.
{{cite web}}
: CS1 maint: url-status (link) - ^ "'It's horrendous': Helena Bonham Carter defends JK Rowling and Johnny Depp". The Guardian. 28 October 2022. Retrieved 30 November 2022.
{{cite web}}
: CS1 maint: url-status (link) - ^ "JK Rowling: Miriam Margolyes says anger at Harry Potter author over trans views has been 'misplaced'". The Independent. 19 April 2022. Retrieved 16 December 2022.
{{cite web}}
: CS1 maint: url-status (link) - ^ "Robbie Coltrane says JK Rowling transphobia critics 'hang around waiting to be offended'". The Independent. Retrieved 7 May 2024.
{{cite web}}
: CS1 maint: url-status (link)
Thoughts from Victoria
A couple of thoughts to keep things moving.
- First, there's been a sustained effort to improve what's currently in the article & in my view that's a Good Thing. Pats on the back all around!
- Second, re first sentence. What we have is honestly fine. There are other options too. I'm not convinced that Wikipedia:CONTROVERSY applies - it's an essay about articles rather than about one section in an BLP. Following that line of thought, then we can write something like Rowling's remarks/comments (pick the word) have been/are controversial. This Glamour article (very long) has been continually updated for a number of years & is cited by a number of the literary critics. The verbiage they use is that J.K. Rowling has come "under fire" for controversial tweets (not verbatim, but very very close). We should either stick with the first sentence as written in Draft 6 or consider rewriting along the lines of the controversial tweets verbiage.
- Third, re scholarly sources: Rowling is a productive writer - something like 20 works in 25 years - and the reason this article exists is because of her writing career. Because she's a writer, literary critics do what literary critics do - hence scholarly sources. For this topic in Rowling's bio, those sources simply distill news sources and are now the desired secondary sources.
- Fourth, I think Scientelensia raises points that are maybe worth considering. Back when we were discussing Draft 3 it became clear that draft had veered into discussing what others were saying about Rowling, rather than what Rowling says/believes. To veer back, we might consider trimming or even cutting the text in the third para beginning from "Criticism came from the Harry Potter fansites ... " possibly to the end of the paragraph. If so, the text can focus on Rowling & there'd be fewer words.
Personally, I think we're almost there. In fact, I think we could take the "it's good enough" route and say that Draft 6 is good to go. What do others think? Victoria (tk) 23:22, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
- My general thoughts are that while there are things I'd change if I could write it entirely myself, I think that Draft 6 is basically fine and I'm not that interested in getting in a big fight about what are essentially small quibbles. Loki (talk) 23:41, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
- I'm concerned that the proposal has veered into non-neutral territory by overfocusing on one academic writer (Whited) rather than a thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature. A survey of the entire literature would not have seen us drop the one sentence in the article that is most likely to endure beyond what any Hollywood star said or thinks. "Her statements have divided feminists; fuelled debates on freedom of speech, academic freedom and cancel culture ... " and more). But this is not a hill worth dying on; I wouldn't mind if we install and move on, but if I had my druthers we'd move the list of all actors and organizations to footnotes (who is surprised at the list of charities?), and restore and expand instead the content that will endure beyond Hollywood -- that is, the overall and lasting cultural effects of the whole brouhaha as reflected in a variety of scholarly sources. A thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature produces scholarly analyses of linguistics, hate speech, fandom, feminism, women's rights, trans rights, etc -- much more than passing opinions of Radcliffe, Watson and anyone else who spends the GDP of a small country to attend the Met Gala. I don't think the draft is POV enough to tag it as such, the POV is subtle, and I won't protest if it goes in, but somewhere along the way, neutrality was dropped in the content that was excised. My solution is different than Scientelensia's; rather than add in those who support her, delete all of that recentism, and focus on a survey of the literature and the broader issues raised. But if someone wants to install now, I won't object. I still believe the section heading should be "Transgender rights". I don't think Draft 6 is FA material, but the rest of the article is, so neither do I think a FAR is in order; it's good enough, but won't endure. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:25, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- Your solution would work also, but there would also have to be rigorous testing to ensure that the selection of literary works constitutes an unbiased interpretation. Scientelensia (talk) 16:19, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- 1. Looking back at Victoria's fourth point, I agree; that's where in my view most precious real estate (word count) is misspent on excess detail, and trimming that would give us room to work back in some neutrality and replace some RECENTISM with enduring content.
could becomeCriticism came from the Harry Potter fansites MuggleNet and The Leaky Cauldron, and LGBT charities Mermaids, Stonewall, and Human Rights Campaign. GLAAD called Rowling's comments "cruel" and "inaccurate". Leading actors of the Wizarding World spoke out against her stance; Daniel Radcliffe, Emma Watson, Rupert Grint, Eddie Redmayne and others declared support for the transgender community.
by moving the detail to a footnote. That word count could be better used on more enduring issues.Criticism came from Harry Potter fansites, LGBT charities, and leading actors of the Wizarding World.
- 2. Whited may have said this, but here's where neutrality is particularly lost:
"Fans turned away from her work, boycotted events, and publishers hesitated to accept her work."
In fact, book sales increased, Universal Studios is expanding Harry Potter World, a TV series is in the works, Maya Forstater was exonerated, etc ... so while the statement is true to some extent and for many people, it's factually inaccurate in terms of leaving out the big picture, and redundant to territory already covered in the first point above. Dropping the sentence is an alternative to discuss. - 3. Looking back at Draft 4 reveals the problem with trying to write an encyclopedic entry with topic sentences: doing so can result in a POV construction that leads the reader (I forget which article is on a record number of FACs for this very problem, which has proven insurmountable). Grouping like content logically by paragraphs avoids wasting wordcount in ways that risk leading the reader or telling the reader what a paragraph is about; just the facts, and let the reader make their own decision.
- 4. I agree with Scientelensia that the sentence
she tweeted a list of trans women, writing that they are "men, every last one of them"
needs a few more clauses for context and relevance, although I wouldn't take as many words as Scientelensia suggests. - 5. And after doing that wordcount reduction, use the gained space to rework and update the enduring content based on a survey of the literature, which was:
Her statements have divided feminists; fuelled debates on freedom of speech and cancel culture; and prompted declarations of support for transgender people from the literary, arts and culture sectors
... we seem to have lost academic freedom, and there's plenty of scholarly literature on how fandom has evolved, and the power of Twitter. - We could put in Draft 6 now, but it is POV and we'll be back here in less than two years to repair the damage we inflicted. Victoriaearle I had my turn; are you interested in working up Draft 7 ?SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:55, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- PS, my separate and growing concern is that none of the three main FA authors have shown up to update the rest of the article to reflect Whited 2024, so if that doesn't happen, we're likely to end up at FAR anyway. I think we made a mistake in over-relying on Whited for transgender content, but she certainly should be used for updating literary content. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:58, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- @SandyGeorgia You suggest Criticism came from Harry Potter fansites, LGBT charities, and leading actors of the Wizarding World., but that implies (to me) all "leading" actors, which isn't true. Either define "leading actors", or quantify with "most", "some", etc. Bazza 7 (talk) 21:13, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- Yep, I wasn't trying to wordsmith the thing yet ... just give the broad points I'd do if we started over. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:23, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- Sandy please excuse my brevity, but I'm not at all able at this time. Will get back here when able. Sorry. Victoria (tk) 23:27, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- 1. Looking back at Victoria's fourth point, I agree; that's where in my view most precious real estate (word count) is misspent on excess detail, and trimming that would give us room to work back in some neutrality and replace some RECENTISM with enduring content.
- Your solution would work also, but there would also have to be rigorous testing to ensure that the selection of literary works constitutes an unbiased interpretation. Scientelensia (talk) 16:19, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
Draft 6.3
Since I agree that all of Sandy's proposed elisions improve the text, I've made them. I've made no effort to add the suggested new content, and I view cutting words as more important.—S Marshall T/C 16:31, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
Draft 6.3: 403 words | Historical: 429 words |
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Rowling has [some contributors want to add a qualifier here] gender-critical views.[1][2][3] She resists proposed changes to UK law that would make it simpler to transition without a medical diagnosis. She is concerned that easier transitions could affect access to female-only spaces and legal protections for women.[4][5][6][a] She opposes gender self-recognition[11][12][b] and suggests that children and cisgender women are threatened by trans women and trans-positive messages.[14] In April 2024, responding to Scotland's Hate Crime and Public Order Act, she tweeted a list of trans women, writing that they are "men, every last one of them".[15] Friction over Rowling's gender-critical writings surged in 2019 when she defended Maya Forstater.[16] When Forstater's employment contract with the Center for Global Development was not renewed after Forstater shared gender-critical views,[17] Rowling wrote that trans people should live in "peace and security", but questioned women being "force[d] out of their jobs for stating that sex is real".[18][c] According to Harry Potter scholar Lana Whited, in the next six months "Rowling herself fanned the flames as she became increasingly vocal".[23] In June 2020,[23] Rowling mocked the phrase "people who menstruate",[24] and tweeted that women's rights and "lived reality" would be "erased" if "sex isn't real".[25][17] Rowling's views have impacted her reputation. As her thoughts on the legal status of transgender people came under scrutiny,[8] she received insults and threats[26][27] and discussion moved beyond the Twitter community.[28] While her remarks provoked condemnation,[9][29][30] sales of Harry Potter books grew during the COVID-19 lockdown.[31][32] Criticism came from Harry Potter fansites, LGBT charities, and leading actors of the Wizarding World.[33][34][35] and Human Rights Campaign.[4][36][37][38] After Kerry Kennedy expressed "profound disappointment" in her views, Rowling returned the Ripple of Hope Award given to her by the Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights organisation.[39] Rowling rejects these characterisations and denies being transphobic.[13][40] In an essay posted on her website in June 2020 – which left trans people feeling betrayed[11][33] – Rowling said her views on women's rights sprang from survivorship of domestic abuse and sexual assault.[41][42] While affirming that "the majority of trans-identified people not only pose zero threat to others, but are vulnerable ... Trans people need and deserve protection", she wrote that it would be unsafe to allow "any man who believes or feels he's a woman" into bathrooms or changing rooms.[42][43][44] Whited asserted in 2024 that Rowling's sometimes "flippant" and "simplistic understanding of gender identity" had permanently changed her "relationship not only with fans, readers, and scholars ... but also with her works themselves".[45] |
Rowling's responses to proposed changes to UK gender recognition laws,[4][5][d] and her views on sex and gender, have provoked controversy.[9] Her statements have divided feminists;[6][46][47] fuelled debates on freedom of speech,[48][49] academic freedom[8] and cancel culture;[29] and prompted declarations of support for transgender people from the literary,[50] arts[51] and culture sectors.[52] When Maya Forstater's employment contract with the London branch of the Center for Global Development was not renewed after she tweeted gender-critical views,[17][18] Rowling responded in December 2019 with a tweet that transgender people should live their lives as they pleased in "peace and security", but questioned women being "force[d] out of their jobs for stating that sex is real".[18][e] In another controversial tweet in June 2020,[34] Rowling mocked an article for using the phrase "people who menstruate",[24] and tweeted that women's rights and "lived reality" would be "erased" if "sex isn't real".[54][55] LGBT charities and leading actors of the Wizarding World franchise condemned Rowling's comments;[37][38][f] GLAAD called them "cruel" and "inaccurate".[61] Rowling responded with an essay on her website[13] in which she revealed that her views on women's rights were informed by her experience as a survivor of domestic abuse and sexual assault.[42] While affirming that "the majority of trans-identified people not only pose zero threat to others, but are vulnerable ... Trans people need and deserve protection", she believed that it would be unsafe to allow "any man who believes or feels he's a woman" into bathrooms or changing rooms.[42][62][63] Writing of her own experiences with sexism and misogyny,[64] she wondered if the "allure of escaping womanhood" would have led her to transition if she had been born later, and said that trans activism was "seeking to erode 'woman' as a political and biological class".[65] Rowling's continual statements – beginning in 2017[9][66][67] – have been called transphobic by critics[68][69] and she has been referred to as a TERF.[69][70][71] She rejects these characterisations and the notion that she holds animosity towards transgender people, saying that her viewpoint has been misunderstood.[13][68][67] Criticism of Rowling's views has come from the Harry Potter fansites MuggleNet and The Leaky Cauldron;[72] and the charities Mermaids,[34] Stonewall,[73] and Human Rights Campaign.[74] After Kerry Kennedy expressed "profound disappointment" in her views, Rowling returned the Ripple of Hope Award given to her by the Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights organisation.[39] As Rowling's views on the legal status of transgender people came under scrutiny,[8] she received insults and death threats[26][75] and discussion moved beyond the Twitter community.[28] Some performers and feminists have supported her.[28][76] Figures from the arts world criticised "hate speech directed against her".[77] |
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Discussion of Draft 6.1
Thanks for getting the ball rolling on this, S Marshall, and I hope Victoria feels better soon. I am traveling today and won't be able to peek in 'til tomorrow. Bst, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:49, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
- Agreed, thanks. As a newcomer to this discussion, I have to ask why are we just relying on one critic, Whited, whose opinion seems at ace level very pro-trans. What gives Whited the right to be here? Would it be useful to insert another critic to level the bias, or remove reference to Whited together?
- Also, in terms on labelling JKR, if a label is needed, gender-critical is indeed appropriate and applicable. Scientelensia (talk) 18:46, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
- If you can find a proper Rowling scholar who doesn't think Rowling's a trans-exclusionary feminist, go ahead and cite them.—S Marshall T/C 20:23, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
It's getting pretty good, actually; focused mostly on what she actually said rather than endless tedious recounting of what other people think of it. As to the discussions about whether to say "gender-critical", that seems to be a reasonable label to use, one that is frequently used as a self-label by people expressing views of a similar nature to JKR's, not a pejorative name like "TERF" or "transphobe". The point of disagreement is in the apparent lack of her actually self-labeling this way; it seems JKR hasn't applied any sort of ideological or political label to herself, preferring her views to speak for themselves. This makes it harder to put a label on her, but if one is to be applied, this one seems fairly reasonable. *Dan T.* (talk) 18:33, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
Weird characterisation
"Since 2017,[4] she has written frequently about transgender rights, mostly in the context of proposed changes to UK gender recognition laws that would make it easier to transition without a medical diagnosis."
I don't get why we're using such a weirdly unspecific wording as "about". Like "she has written frequently against transgender rights" says something. If we can't get the sentence to say something with actual meaning, then the sentence is filler and should be scrapped: as it is, the only part that seems to be meaningful is "since 2017".
Well, there's also the part about the gender recognition laws being the main focus... I have to ask if that's supported by sources as a general rule, or if the sources only say that she reacted at three times to such laws. It's kind of hard to make such a general statement with sources locked to very narrow periods of time. If the statement is something like "initially in response to..." then that's much easier to support.
Like, the draft's a massive improvement, but that one sentence... Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.9% of all FPs. 22:45, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
- And, she's not writing about or against transgender rights. She's writing about the law and the definition of a woman, with a focus on access to female-only spaces. I'll get my thinking cap on.—S Marshall T/C 10:22, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
- Actually why not just say that?
Since 2017 she has written about the law and the definition of a woman. She is concerned about proposed changes to UK law that would make it easier to transition without a medical diagnosis, and about freedom of speech. She is particularly interested in how increased transgender rights would affect access to female-only spaces and legal protections for women.
- The downside is, it's long.—S Marshall T/C 10:31, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
- I think, as long as that doesn't replace the sentences after the one under discussion, that it's okay, but I do worry we're skirting the line of falling into the gender critical movement's framing of itself. As the rest of the paragraph explains, her views are very anti-transwomen. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.9% of all FPs. 13:22, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
- I wouldn't just say anti-trans woman. She has expressed some pretty serious contempt for trans men too, just in the "poor deluded girls" framing that often gets people to mistake condescension for concern.
- I agree that "about" is bad and "against" is better. But maybe something like
She has frequently opposed proposed laws that would expand transgender rights, such as...
would be even better? Loki (talk) 14:43, 12 May 2024 (UTC)- True, though her views on transmen aren't as widely reported (and more-or-less don't appear in the rest of the proposed paragraph) so it's a little harder to source with the restrictions on sources Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.9% of all FPs. 16:10, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
- I wouldn't write "opposed proposed". You might say I'm disposed to oppose opposed proposed.—S Marshall T/C 16:22, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
- True, though her views on transmen aren't as widely reported (and more-or-less don't appear in the rest of the proposed paragraph) so it's a little harder to source with the restrictions on sources Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.9% of all FPs. 16:10, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
- I think, as long as that doesn't replace the sentences after the one under discussion, that it's okay, but I do worry we're skirting the line of falling into the gender critical movement's framing of itself. As the rest of the paragraph explains, her views are very anti-transwomen. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.9% of all FPs. 13:22, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
- How about:
Since 2017 she has written about transgender people. She resists proposed changes to UK law that would make it simpler to transition without a medical diagnosis. She is concerned about how easier transitions could affect access to female-only spaces and legal protections for women.
- Better?—S Marshall T/C 19:06, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
- This works! Scientelensia (talk) 19:08, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
- Now up as draft 6.2.—S Marshall T/C 19:14, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
- I still don't like it because IMO
Since 2017 she has written about transgender people
is meaningless without saying which way she has written about them. We could cut that sentence and just have:
Loki (talk) 23:28, 12 May 2024 (UTC)Since 2017 she has resisted proposed changes to UK law that would make it simpler to transition without a medical diagnosis. She is concerned about how easier transitions could affect access to female-only spaces and legal protections for women.
- She hasn't, though. She started writing about trans issues in 2017 but the resistance to legal changes dates to 2019 at the earliest, so that's counterfactual.—S Marshall T/C 23:43, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
- Was there any commentary of particular prominence or noteworthiness in 2017 or 2018? If not, one could say something like "While she had made some comments beginning in 2017, her views first came to widespread prominence in 2019..." and then jump into the Maya Forstater stuff and the proposed changes to UK law. If her extremely early views are going to hurt an otherwise clear and consise description of what she did, cut out the information or isolate it to its own sentence. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.9% of all FPs. 01:56, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
- That's a lot of extra words though.—S Marshall T/C 06:48, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
- Was there any commentary of particular prominence or noteworthiness in 2017 or 2018? If not, one could say something like "While she had made some comments beginning in 2017, her views first came to widespread prominence in 2019..." and then jump into the Maya Forstater stuff and the proposed changes to UK law. If her extremely early views are going to hurt an otherwise clear and consise description of what she did, cut out the information or isolate it to its own sentence. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.9% of all FPs. 01:56, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
- She hasn't, though. She started writing about trans issues in 2017 but the resistance to legal changes dates to 2019 at the earliest, so that's counterfactual.—S Marshall T/C 23:43, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
- I still don't like it because IMO
- Now up as draft 6.2.—S Marshall T/C 19:14, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
- This works! Scientelensia (talk) 19:08, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
- In draft 6.3, I've cut the disputed sentence.—S Marshall T/C 06:54, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
Suissa and Sullivan
Continue this at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Suissa and Sullivan, please.—S Marshall T/C 15:19, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
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We've discussed anove what an odd source this is, and how it has sections that are clearly pro-gender critical movement. The introduction explicitly states that transwomen are not women, and that transgender people need no mord rights than already offered under UK law at the time. In the revised draft, it's used once. Does it have to be used at all? Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.9% of all FPs. 16:13, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
My draft uses that source as a reference for: "[Rowling] received insults and threats". Not a single part of WP:FRINGE or WP:PROFRINGE is relevant.—S Marshall T/C 19:31, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
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