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Does anyone have the dates of the two separate Assyrian invasions mentioned. [[User:SelectSplat|SelectSplat]] ([[User talk:SelectSplat|talk]]) 07:57, 26 June 2009 (UTC) |
Does anyone have the dates of the two separate Assyrian invasions mentioned. [[User:SelectSplat|SelectSplat]] ([[User talk:SelectSplat|talk]]) 07:57, 26 June 2009 (UTC) |
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== Here we go again == |
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Kuratowski's Ghost is again trying to insert his religionist POV into the article by deciding who has "won" in the discussion on historical accuracy of the Bible between "minimalism" and "maximalism". Right now the article only mentions the controversy but remains neutral on its outcome, and that's how it should remain. But Kuratowski's Ghost wants to introduce judgment that minimalism were fringe, which it is certainly not. In the past 20 years no archeologist or historian has seriously showed up in favor of biblical history. The entire story from the Creation all the way down to at least the end of the United Monarchy period is now considered mythical, legendary, and plain ahistorical. Not only has there never been any evidence to confirm the fancy story from Adam to Abraham, or Israelites in Egypt, an Exodus, a Conquest of Canaan, a Judges period, a United Monarchy period, there has been evidence unearthed that draws a very different picture about what happened in the Levant and adjacent areas in the time from 2000 BCE to 700 BCE. There is simply no room in the archaeological and historical record for any of the biblical stories to be real. [[User:Cush|Cush]] ([[User talk:Cush|talk]]) 16:37, 4 October 2009 (UTC) |
Revision as of 16:37, 4 October 2009
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Jewish history B‑class Top‑importance | ||||||||||
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The neutrality of this article is disputed.
As of 13 October 2008
Would someone care to say what is the subject of dispute that prompted this template?--Meieimatai? 09:28, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
- This article is based entirely on religious POV. Cush (talk) 11:31, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
- There is nothing wrong with having articles describing religious beliefs. The problem with Wikipedia is that it is a confusing jumble of religious beliefs with a few bits of actual history thrown in. In the middle east religious beliefs are used to justify ethnic cleansing and confiscation of property. I think Wikipedia is being used by (you know who) as a propaganda tool to justify these atrocities. Fourtildas (talk) 04:06, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
Well, let's see. The article is disputed by one anti-religious bigot and one anti-semite. This is ironic, since the very concept of a separate article (Jew vs. Israelite) would be improper from a Jewish religious point of view. If you look at rabbinic literature of the last thousand years, you will almost always see "Israel" and hardly ever see "Jew". 84.228.25.197 (talk) 18:43, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
- And? Since when are Jewish sources reliable when it comes to Jewishness or the alleged history of Jews? That's like asking the Vatican for reliable material on the historicity of Jesus. You will get an abundance of void 'evidence' in favor of the respective issue. Only a non-religious view from outside can possibly be objective enough to render reliable information. Rabbinic literature will of course not discard Jewish claims of Israelitism, because that would render its own existence pointless. See the conflict of interests? Either you are a believer or you are accurate, there is no middle way.
- This article is devoid of extrabiblical or non-judeochristian sources. Simply because Israelite history is at least 80% faked. If it were otherwise I could surely find the artifacts and texts referring to Israel (in the relavant time period from 1500 to 1000 BCE) listed in the article. Cush (talk) 15:51, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
- The relevant time period described here is not 1500 to 1000 BCE, but rather 1000 BCE to 500 BCE, for which there is no shortage of artifacts or texts. The earliest mention of Israelites however, is from around 1200 BC, in Merneptah Stele , that describes military campaigns of pharaoh Merneptah. Igorb2008 (talk) 18:23, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
- The problem is that there is no whatsoever connection between the occurrence of the word Israel on the Merenptah stele with the biblical tale. And further there is no whatsoever evidence for the biblical tale that has allegedly played out way before the name Israel could appear on Merenptah's stele. If Isarel was a place name used by Egyptians then it must have existed for some time and the whole Exodus story was already in the past. But there is simply nothing to even hint at this event which would be the creation moment for a group called Israelites. So without that the biblical Israel with its fancy kings may have sprung from anywhere, but just not from a huge number of Aamu travelling out of Egypt. So we have a single occurrence of the word Israel as a place name on the one hand, and a doctrine-soaked grand tale of Israelites in the bible on the other hand. Well, it is not hard to follow Mr Finkelstein und just dismiss the entire biblical myth of the divinely guided emergence of Israel and go for a far less spectacular development. What this wiki may need is one article about biblical Israelites and one about historical Israelites. And they are not necessarily related at all. Cush (talk) 19:48, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
- I think it would be better to incorporate Finkelstein research in this article,so it will cover all POVs, because, from "united monarchy" an on,historical account mostly confirms with biblical.The existence of David and Solomon,for example is generally accepted by critical historians, such us Finkelstein. On the other hand, it should be noted in the article that Exodus story is purely biblical account, and many archaeologists regard the Exodus as non-historical.Igorb2008 (talk) 20:29, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
- What? No. The existence of David and Solomon is exactly not accepted by critical historians and certainly not archaeologists (including Finkelstein), because there is no single piece of evidence to confirm the biblical tale. Many (if not all) archaeologists regard the United Monarchy period as non-historical. And it is even worse with the periods before such as Judges, Conquest, Exodus, and Sojourn in Egypt. Not a single piece of solid evidence in favor of the biblical narrative in 150 years of thorough search. All that there is is circumstantial and speculative, the facts just do not add up to the scenario that the bible renders. The only ones who seek to construe history to fit the bible are weird evangelicals like Kitchen. In the conventional chronological framework the entire story of the Israelites as narrated in the bible just did not happen at all. That is also the reason why basically all Wikipedia articles related to that are of such a ridiculously poor quality and just reflect and are dominated by judeochristian doctrine. Cush (talk) 11:35, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
- Finklestein accepts the existence of kings Saul,David and Solomon, but doubts their chronology, significance and influence as described in the Bible. You can see his book "David and Solomon: In Search of the Bible's Sacred Kings and the Roots of the Western Tradition", 2006 Igorb2008 (talk) 17:58, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
- Chronology, significance and influence is all that matters when it comes to biblical figures that are not identifiable in the historical and archaeological record. If ever such kings existed (with different names) they are not the individuals the bible refers to. So the existence of these figures as rendered in the bible is in fact rejected by Finkelstein. The point is that the bible is pretty precise in narrating the stories of these characters and until now there has been nothing to find these persons in any other sources, or to find persons on which the biblical tales may be based. Zero. The same applies to any biblical figures before that. Hell, if there were any evidence then the entire issue would not be of such a highly speculative nature. What it comes down to is that the existence of biblical Israelites is doubtful at best, but more likely it is just a later invention. This article dwells on Jewish doctrine and a singular occurrence of the word Israel in a singular Egyptian source. That is a little insufficient for the reconstruction of the whole epic tale of the biblical Israelites as real history. Cush (talk) 22:05, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
- Existence of Israelites is mentioned in many ancient sources and no serious historian or archaeologist, that I know of, deny their existence, or existence of kingdom of Israel or kingdom of Judah. Finkelstein for example argues that earliest Israelite settlements belong to 1200BC. If however you know of any academic work that dispute this,or anything else written in the article, then of course you should add it to the article, all POVs must be presented.Igorb2008 (talk) 18:59, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
- Excuse my ignorance, but which extrabiblical material has ever been unearthed that confirms the existence of a United-Monarchy-period Israel? Or any material of the periods prior to that? If you know of any academic work that is not of a speculative nature but refers to solid evidence, I'd be glad to revise my position. I so far have not seen any Egyptian, Mesopotamian, Anatolian source that mentions dealings with an entity called Israel in the, say, 1100 BCE to 920 BCE timeframe, nor anything dug up in the Levant itself to confirm the existence of such a country ruled by the famous kings named Shaul, Dud, Jedidiyah in the Tanakh/Bible. Iirr Finkelstein maintains the position that "Israelites" as a real people in the southern Levant have nothing whatsoever to do with the "Israelites" described in the biblical text. Cush (talk) 19:15, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
- Cush, read about the City of David. The digs are very difficult, around Arab houses, but they are bringing to light a rather large palace. It is exactly where the Bible said David's palace was, but for now it is called the Large Stone Structure to satisfy skeptics like you. What is this structure, who ordered it built and, most important, how powerful was this man? Emmanuelm (talk) 03:25, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
- I know about that. And until the three questions are answered definitively there is yet no connection between the LSS and any tale that the Tanakh/Bible may narrate in all details. It may just as well be a structure built by the Hyksos who according to Josephus built/rebuilt Jerusalem. Or it may be a structure built by the Jebusites, who even according to the Tanakh/Bible dwelled in Jerusalem all through the Judges period and prior. BTW there have been concerns about the interpretations made of the findings because of the ideological aims of the organization that conducted the excavation. As I said, any evidence is still missing. Cush (talk) 05:24, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
More than 12 tribes
In 7 different places in the Old Testament, Levi is specically called a "tribe". The fact that they were not assigne any specific territory or that they were the priests and the levites, does not make them less than a "tribe". The truth is that they were 12 tribes with Joseph counted in. When he was removed and histwo sons became fully fledged "Tribes", the number of tribes became 13. It is thus a myth to say that there were 12 tribes and count Ephrain and Menashe in but exclude Levi. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.13.111.8 (talk • contribs)
- In one section in Chronicles we even have "Aaron" i.e the priests mentioned equally with the other tribes and of course Manasseh was divided in two so one can get up to 15 "tribes".
Israelites are not Muslims, just as they are not Jews
The agenda-pushing statements that Isrealites were Muslims, or anything of that sort, are unacceptable. The projection of later belief systems into the past, as conducted by Jews, Muslims, and Christians, is merely the expression of modern fundamentalism. All semitic peoples of the period in question (circa 1500-700 BCE) were polytheists. They did not have the same concept of deity as later Muslims, or even Jews. To claim that Israelites were adherents of Islam or Judaism is an outright lie and a willful distortion of history, only to pursue modern religious ends. I don't think such an approach is appropriate for an encyclopedia. Cush (talk) 09:44, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
- From what I understand, even through it is suggested that strict monotheism developed during the Babylonian Exile, perhaps in reaction to Zoroastrian dualism, it is still believed that Judaism originated in earlier times amongst the Israelites, maybe with roots in Canaanite religion. So from that views, both Judaism and Islam can trace its roots to Israelites, in the period mentioned.Igorb2008 (talk) 13:26, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
- Tracing ones "roots" to something does not equal being that thing. The entire theology of Judaism and Islam has nothing whatsoever to do with any Israelites. That's like Protestants claiming that the first Christians were in fact Protestants. Just illogical and ideologically charged rubbish. Cush (talk) 17:52, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
By definition of Judaism, it is the religion of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, even of individuals such as Adam, Noah, Shem and Eber before them and of Moses and the OT prophets. Israelites who followed this religion were thus "Jews". This is something true by definition of "Jew" and "Judaism". By definition Christianity starts with Jesus and the Apostles, and Islam (as the term is understood in English) starts with Mohammed and so the Israelites by definition were neither Christians nor Muslims.
In the Arabic of the Koran "muslim" does not refer to the organized Islamic religion but corresponds more or less to English "God fearing person" so if one were speaking Koranic Arabic one could call Israelites who remained faithful to Judaism "muslims" but it would be wrong to translate that into English as "Muslim". Kuratowski's Ghost (talk) 19:03, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
The roots of Jewish religion as well as ancestry is traced back to Israelites, and this is accepted by both traditional and critical historical views on Jewish history. As for Islam, Muslims believe that Islam existed long before Muhammad and that the religion had evolved from the time of Adam until the time of Muhammad, so, from this point, translation "Muslim" can be right, see article Muslim, for example.Igorb2008 (talk) 20:03, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
- That is an example of playing with words its deliberately confusing Islam as the name of the religion started by Mohammed with the earlier meaning of submission to God as a general concept applicable to Adam, Abaraham etc. Kuratowski's Ghost (talk) 20:32, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
A Muslim is someone who follows the religion founded by Muhammad. Period. The word means exactly that, no matter what the literal meaning of it may be. There are no Muslims predating Muhammad. A Jew is someone who follows the religion that was created by uncertain originators in the Persian/Achaemenid era. Period. There are no Jews proper predating the so called Babylonian Captivity, neither religiously nor ethnically nor otherwise. Israelites are quite distinct from Jews in religion, culture, ethnicity, even though Jews may in a small part be descended from Israelites. Cush (talk) 05:33, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
- Incorrect. Judaism was created at Sinai. Not in the Persian period. -LisaLiel (talk) 12:54, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
- Incorrect. Only the bible/tanakh claims that Judaism was created at Sinai, but this is an encyclopedia and not an evangelical or jew-ish platform. We want facts, not doctrine. Or at least I want that. The real history of Judaism is a lot different from what you may have heard at sunday school. Cush (talk) 12:25, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
- A large set of commandments were introduced during the Sinai period, but standard view is that this was not suddenly a new religion but a continuation of the religion of Adam, Noah, Abraham etc. Standard Jewish view is that initially there was one righteous individual in each generation true to the religion and beginning with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob this becomes a people instead of a single line of individuals. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are viewed as forefathers of the Jews as a people, but are not seen as founders of a new religion different to that of Adam, Noah, Shem and Eber. Moses coming even later is also not viewed as a founder of a new religion. Kuratowski's Ghost (talk) 13:34, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
The passage deleted says that Quran implies that Israelites were first Muslims and provides a citation from Quran. So if "Muslim" is indeed a correct translation, why it should not be mentioned in the article? As for Judaism, according to critical historical analysis, even though Torah was compiled during Babylonian captivity, most of it texts come from period before the captivity(Jahwist, Elohist and Deuteronomist sources). I also don`t think that there are many, if any, notable historians, that dispute that Jews descended from Israelite population of destroyed Kingdom of Judah. Igorb2008 (talk) 06:25, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
- Jews are descended from the remnant Israelites and everybody else who lived there after the Babylonian Captivity. Other populations have and were settled there and the returning Israelites mingled with them and subsequently became what could be called Judeans, which in turn gave rise to later Jews. There is no "pure" Jewish lineage tracing back to the Israelites, certainly none conforming to the "Chosen People" ideology. Cush (talk) 11:08, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
- The Israelites were a mix to start with, all Jacobs sons except Joseph married Canaanite women. Joseph married an Egyptian - later fable makes her the daughter of Dinah but even this then makes her half Canaanite in that case. It was never about racial purity. As the article explains there were both Jewish and apostate Israelites. Obviously Israelites who worshipped Baal are not Jews but those who remained faithful to the religion of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses etc are Jews by the very definition of the term Jew and the concept of Judaism. Kuratowski's Ghost (talk) 13:42, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
"Chosen People" is not an ideology,and has nothing to do with "pure linage". It is religious belief of Judaism, according to which, God choose the Jews to be in covenant with him. There is no "pure" Jewish lineage tracing back to the Israelites, but mostly, Jewish lineage are traced back to the Israelites. I don`t think that there are even biblical minimalists who claim otherwise. Igorb2008 (talk) 13:38, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
- "Chosen People" is doctrine and thus very much an ideology, and it has the same quality as the Nazi Herrenrasse ideology. Any group that thinks to be elevated above the rest of humanity is inherently insane. And the claim that mostly Jewish lineage are traced back to the Israelites lacks all evidence. There were many other peoples living in the southern Levant with whom the returning Israelites (of the Yehud tribe) mingled. Later Jews descend more from those other peoples than from Israelites. The claim to be almost exclusively descended from Israelites is only made for religious purposes. So while this article may reflect Jewish doctrine/ideology it must also say that the doctrine does not hold up against the historical and archeological record.
And the stuff about Israelites being Muslims needs to be dumped altogether. Cush (talk) 16:25, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
- First of all, I never heard or seen any Jewish group, that say that they are elevated above the rest of humanity. And according to what historian, you claim that Jews descend more from those other peoples than from Israelites?. Also ,article did not said that Israelites were Muslims, it said that Quran mentioned them as Muslim. If it is indeed a correct translation, why should it not be mentioned in the article?Igorb2008 (talk) 17:16, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
Wow, heated debate here. My two cents:
- Regardless of your personal opinion, WP:NPOV dictates that every significant aspect of the Israelite concept should be included in this article. If we agree that the Qur'an is significant, and if it says that Banu Israil are Muslims, this belongs in the article as long as one clarifies that, currently, "muslim" designates followers of Muhammad. I just added this.
- The discussion about the differences between the religion of Israelites and contemporary Judaism can fill volumes. There are obvious differences -- e.g. animal sacrifices -- and obvious similarities. Bottom line is that the cult of Jehovah has undergone a long evolution to give numerous variants. Even the name -- Judaism, derived from the Judah tribe -- is a hint that there is a lot going on. How did King David call his religion?
- Genetic evidence shows that only about 15% of current Jews descend from a levantine male ancestor, possibly an Israelite. Geneticists did, however, made the stunning discovery of the Cohen Modal Haplotype. This rare DNA pattern proves that most Cohanim are descendants of Aaron and, therefore, are true Israelites (sorry IgorB).
- From the above, it is clear that, before claiming to be part of the chosen people, one must define who that people is.
- Finally, Wikipedia belongs to all. Being respectful is not an option. Emmanuelm (talk) 03:09, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
- From what I understand, more than 40% of current Jews have Haplogroup J Y-chromosome, and so descend from a levantine male ancestor,possibly an Israelite.Igorb2008 (talk) 03:30, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
- "This rare DNA pattern proves that most Cohanim are descendants of Aaron" that claim is obviously made by one without any understanding of genetics. Nobody has ever taken a DNA sample of the biblical Aaron. All that this DNA pattern shows is a common descent from some levantine person or group of persons. There is NO automatic connection with the biblical myth. When it is spoken of the Mitochondrial Eve then this is no reference to the biblical character. The same concept applies to the Cohanim Aaron. It is just a name used to refer to a common ancestor, but not to a specifically identifyable one. Cush (talk) 12:19, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, Cush, you are right. As always. Emmanuelm (talk) 00:31, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
Black Hebrews
I am not sure how useful it is to quote Tacitus, since his "history" of the Jews is basically an anti-semitic diatribe. If we are talking about Roman times, I think we have a contemporaneous description in the Mishna, written around 300 (if I have my dates right). It tells us that the Jews were, in general, darker than the Germans but lighter than the Cushim (Ethiopeans or Nubians). Interestingly, the same source proves that a Jew can be of any race.84.228.25.197 (talk) 18:50, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
Dates for Northern Kingdom invasions
Does anyone have the dates of the two separate Assyrian invasions mentioned. SelectSplat (talk) 07:57, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
Here we go again
Kuratowski's Ghost is again trying to insert his religionist POV into the article by deciding who has "won" in the discussion on historical accuracy of the Bible between "minimalism" and "maximalism". Right now the article only mentions the controversy but remains neutral on its outcome, and that's how it should remain. But Kuratowski's Ghost wants to introduce judgment that minimalism were fringe, which it is certainly not. In the past 20 years no archeologist or historian has seriously showed up in favor of biblical history. The entire story from the Creation all the way down to at least the end of the United Monarchy period is now considered mythical, legendary, and plain ahistorical. Not only has there never been any evidence to confirm the fancy story from Adam to Abraham, or Israelites in Egypt, an Exodus, a Conquest of Canaan, a Judges period, a United Monarchy period, there has been evidence unearthed that draws a very different picture about what happened in the Levant and adjacent areas in the time from 2000 BCE to 700 BCE. There is simply no room in the archaeological and historical record for any of the biblical stories to be real. Cush (talk) 16:37, 4 October 2009 (UTC)