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Despite having been adviced about [[WP:NCGREEK]], {{u|Ninjoust}} continues to alter Greek transliteations. They do not give explanation (despite having been repeatedly asked to use edit summaries). I am no expert, but I can see that the change is not correct according to NCGREEK, so I have reverted. --[[User:TU-nor|T*U]] ([[User talk:TU-nor|talk]]) 06:24, 17 September 2017 (UTC) |
Despite having been adviced about [[WP:NCGREEK]], {{u|Ninjoust}} continues to alter Greek transliteations. They do not give explanation (despite having been repeatedly asked to use edit summaries). I am no expert, but I can see that the change is not correct according to NCGREEK, so I have reverted. --[[User:TU-nor|T*U]] ([[User talk:TU-nor|talk]]) 06:24, 17 September 2017 (UTC) |
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:No need to keep accentuating on this. I have already stopped per your request. —[[User:Ninjoust|Ninjoust]] ([[User talk:Ninjoust|talk]]) 00:33, 18 September 2017 (UTC) |
:No need to keep accentuating on this. I have already stopped per your request. —[[User:Ninjoust|Ninjoust]] ([[User talk:Ninjoust|talk]]) 00:33, 18 September 2017 (UTC) |
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::Fine |
::Fine. I don't really like users like you anyway. If you do break the rules again, I really hope you get blocked for good. Wikipedia does not need anymore of this frivolous nonsense. [[User:TU-nor|T*U]] ([[User talk:TU-nor|talk]]) 07:27, 18 September 2017 (UTC) |
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:::Whatever. —[[User:Ninjoust|Ninjoust]] ([[User talk:Ninjoust|talk]]) 04:50, 19 September 2017 (UTC) |
Revision as of 04:50, 19 September 2017
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Situla from Vače
quote: " In Slovenia, the Vače situla was discovered in 1882 and attributed to Illyrians" The situla from Vače is attributed to Venetic people, not Illyrians — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.182.78.108 (talk) 12:38, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
Albanian ethnic continuity
It appears that a new barrage of disruption is in full scale. I assume that a decent explanation of this [[1]] is needed. To be precise, it's about this part:
From remaining Illyrians that resisted assimilation, emerged new Albanian ethnos..
However, in general the supposed Illyrian-Albanian link is hotly debated, (if not rejected) by modern mainstream literature.Alexikoua (talk) 15:47, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
References
Don't continue deleting my edits and references. The truth is that you don't like the idea that scholars say that the illyrians are the ancestors of albanians. See here:"However, in general the Supposed Illyrian-Albanian link is hotly debated, (if not rejected) by modern mainstream literature." ----who said this?You Alexikoua? Rolandi+ (talk) 18:30, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
- You are cherry-picking and selectively quoting sources to support a point of view that is far from settled among the academic community. That is POV-pushing. Athenean (talk) 18:36, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
"is far from settled among the academic community"--Who decided that?You?You are obviously against the idea that scholars say that the illyrians are the ancestors of albanians. It also says : scholars say that the illyrians are the ancestors of albanians.Why do you accept the part that says only Vlachs have Illyrian origin??? Rolandi+ (talk) 19:08, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
Strangely You and Alexikoua call my references related to albanian topics as "unraliable" or "non decent".Strangely. Rolandi+ (talk) 19:30, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
- For example one of the recent studies on the subject [[2]] by experts Joachim Matzinger and Stefan Schumacher concluded that "Albanian and Illyrian have little or nothing in common".Alexikoua (talk) 20:22, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
It says"Although the two men are simply studying 17th and 18th-century Albanian texts in order to compile a lexicon of verbs, their innocent-sounding work has stirred hot debate among Albanian linguists" In the 17th and 18th centuary albanian language has been turkified,has borrowed foreign elements. The most important thing is that the other theories about albanians are at the albanian origin article.This article isn't about thracs,dacians or mysians.
also why did you call the theory of albanians coming from illyrians as "Supposed"?Isn't this POV pushing?Answear my questions ,don't send your socks to help you,because they can't help your fairy tales. Rolandi+ (talk) 11:16, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
You are talking about cherry picking? Check this one (http://multitree.org/codes/xil) where "some linguistics" (only one actually) say Albanian comes from Thracian because Illyrian was "Centum" when we clearly know that the debate about centum vs satem in Illyrian is widely unset. So yeah is clear that greeks and slavs don't like Albanians descending from Illyrians. Also "Albanian coming from illyrian is not clear because we are not sure if illyrian was "one" language" is also an abuse. And ? Ancient Greek was not "one" language either but Greek arose from one of the greek languages/dialects spoken in ancient greece. So stop coming forth with useless "buts" jut for the sake of contradicting.
Clear POV
Someone deleted my edits at the introduction saying that the Illyrian-albanian theory is already mention in the correspodent section,while the vlach theory is mentioned at the introduction.This is a clear POV and lack of neutrality.Rolandi+ (talk) 16:19, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
Albanian ethnos?
The text added by @Rolandi+: is clearly POV. First the same text was added with a falsified source. That source (Fine) does not say that "Today scholars see ... Illyrians as the proto-Albanians." It actually says "Traditionally scholars have seen ... Illyrians as the proto-Albanians." and continues over several pages to discuss and cast doubt on that theory. Now the text is readded (for the second time, edit war-like) without the Fine source, without any attempt at discussion per BRD. The result is to present one (traditional) theory without mentioning that there are serious doubts about it. That is definitely POV.
If text is to be added about a possible Illyrian-Albanian lineage, both points of view have to be described. Also: This is not suiteble for the lead, but will have to find a place further down in the article, possibly in the "Legacy" section, where the theme is already mentioned. --T*U (talk) 14:13, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
- @TU-nor: Why don't you go to learn what POV means before accusing me?You said I haven't done any attempt to discuss about the matter and this is called a "lie".I have explained the problem since some months ago and it's not fair to give me some useless accusations.Instead of making non-contructive comments,you have to read the text carefully:"MANY historians say that from the remaining Illyrians that survived assimilation emerged the Albanian ethnos".It's worthy to note that the article says that many scholars support this idea,but not all of them.On the other hand you have the courage to make a POV suggestion.According to you the Illyrian-Albanian continuity isn't suitable for the lead,while the Illyrian-vlach continuity theory is alredy mentioned in the lead.Rolandi+ (talk) 14:41, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
- (I indented your post.) I cannot see that you have made any attempts to discuss it since the last time you added the falsified Fine source 31 August. Nor can I see that there was any consensus in earlier discussions to add your text. But the main point is: Presenting one theory that you know is disputed without mentioning that it is disputed is clearly not neutral. As for the lede, I do not feel strongly, but a discussion of differing theories (which is the only way this can be mentioned) is normally not lede stuff. --T*U (talk) 18:11, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
Recent edit-warring
I have moved this question from my talkpage and reply here:
- Illyrians
I corrected that sentence because it was wrong. It said that modern historians in Albania claim that, but actually there are many foreign scholars that have claimed this thing not only Albanians. So I'm asking you to correct it. Also, that existing source/reference is not found. -Whoamiwilli — Preceding unsigned comment added by Whoamiwilli (talk • contribs) 00:48, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
- Your source says :
Meyer’s hypothesis was based on his result of linguistic investigations and comparisons of ancient Illyrian language with contemporary Albanian language. Meyer argued that modern Albanian language had to be considered as the last phase of old Illyrian language evolution. Specifically, according to him, the 19th century Albanian language was a dialect of ancient Illyrian language. However, the crucial problem with Mayer’s methodology was the fact that we do not have any source of recorded ancient Illyrian language as they have been illiterate. The reconstruction of this ancient language is a matter of the science of fantasy.
- You wrote:
Many scholars claim that the modern Albanian language is descended from a southern Illyrian dialect, being the only language of the branch that survived assimilation<ref>http://article.sciencepublishinggroup.com/pdf/10.11648.j.history.20130102.11.pdf</ref>
- Can you see that your edit is not supported in any way, shape, or form by what your source says? Dr. K. 01:51, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
- Gustav Meyer was German. And in that existing sentence it said that only historians from Albania claimed that which is incorrect.
- "Mayer claimed in his works that Albanian language was nothing else than the dialect of the ancient Illyrian language." Whoamiwilli (talk) 15:12, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
- Yes, but Mayer is not "Many scholars" like you wrote, and you "forget" that your source says:
However, the crucial problem with Mayer’s methodology was the fact that we do not have any source of recorded ancient Illyrian language as they have been illiterate. The reconstruction of this ancient language is a matter of the science of fantasy.
- So we cannot add this fantasy to the article, because it is debunked crap from the 19th century. Dr. K. 16:18, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
- Yes, but Mayer is not "Many scholars" like you wrote, and you "forget" that your source says:
- That's why it says "claimed", it was his hypothesis which is important to add in the article as it is the only evidence of an Illyrian continuation. Every single word that is revealed from Illyrian language, is explained only in Albanian language. Even the name itself Illyria is Albanian, names of Illyrian people, kings are all used only among Albanians. Illyrian mythology and Albanian mythology are connected, those words/names are still used today in Albanian and I repeat, not in any other languages. I don't know why are you ignoring all these Whoamiwilli (talk) 15:12, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
- I don't lknow why you are insisting to add something from the 19th century that has been described as "fantasy". Please see WP:FRINGE and WP:REDFLAG. The rest of your comments are your own WP:ORIGINALRESEARCH and that's your problem, not mine. Dr. K. 16:31, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
- Not my original research (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Albanians#Arguments_for_Illyrian_origin) - all are referenced. This doesn't give you any right to delete my edits as long as I have a source. Whoamiwilli (talk) 15:12, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
- You forgot to add Origin_of_the_Albanians#Arguments_against_Illyrian_origin. You cannot put at the lead something that is disputed. If you put it, you can put it somewhere in the article, and also add that it is fantasy like your source calls it. Dr. K. 16:42, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
- Omg are you f*cking kidding me right now, I added reliable sources with 3 linguists who are definitely not from Albania and all of them have claimed that, and you are deleting it, keeping that expired link. You have no right to do that. Every single thing I wrote there is true and sourced. The edits are going to be reverted. Whoamiwilli (talk) 15:12, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
- Leave the cheap theatrics and obtain WP:CONSENSUS for your WP:ORIGINALRESEARCH phrasing. Two of your links are not working and your claims need verification. Plus you cannot add all this stuff to the lead. It has to be first in the article body, and then, if warranted, it can be mentioned at the lead. Otherwise it is WP:UNDUEWEIGHT. Dr. K. 17:39, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
- Analysis of sources
- Thunmann, Johannes E. "Untersuchungen uber die Geschichte der Oslichen Europaischen Volger". Teil, Leipzig, 1774: Source from 1774(!), no page number and no quote. Obsolete scholarship from the 18th century.
- Johann Thunmann: On the History and Language of the Albanians and Vlachs". Elsie. Source from 1774(!), no page number and no quote. Obsolete scholarship from the 18th century. Also link not working giving 404 message.
- In his latest book, Eric Hamp supports the thesis that the Illyrian language belongs to the Northwestern group, that the Albanian language is descended from Illyrian, and that Albanian is related to Messapic which is an earlier Illyrian dialect (Comparative Studies on Albanian, 2007). No page number, no ISBN, no link, and no quote.
- http://article.sciencepublishinggroup.com/pdf/10.11648.j.history.20130102.11.pdf Only passing mention of Hamp in a footnote. Source does not support claim that Albanian is connected to Illyrian
- Conclusion
- Phrasing
Several linguists and historians[10][11][12][13] have claimed that modern Albanian language might have descended from a southern Illyrian dialect.
is crude WP:ORIGINALRESEARCH. Dr. K. 17:55, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
Transliteration
Despite having been adviced about WP:NCGREEK, Ninjoust continues to alter Greek transliteations. They do not give explanation (despite having been repeatedly asked to use edit summaries). I am no expert, but I can see that the change is not correct according to NCGREEK, so I have reverted. --T*U (talk) 06:24, 17 September 2017 (UTC)