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:I am not edit warring, I restored the page per policy, by disruption it is evident, check the evidence above. Of course, I will not continue further, you can be fully sure I am aware of our policies and keeping it, as I did so far, so no need to remind me especially. Thank You([[User:KIENGIR|KIENGIR]] ([[User talk:KIENGIR|talk]]) 18:18, 5 October 2020 (UTC)) |
:I am not edit warring, I restored the page per policy, by disruption it is evident, check the evidence above. Of course, I will not continue further, you can be fully sure I am aware of our policies and keeping it, as I did so far, so no need to remind me especially. Thank You([[User:KIENGIR|KIENGIR]] ([[User talk:KIENGIR|talk]]) 18:18, 5 October 2020 (UTC)) |
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:: {{ping|Brigade Piron}}, (1) the user {{ping|KIENGIR}} did not revert the page to the status quo as the policy requests, but an even earlier edit of his own choosing, from 7th of June. (2) the RFC is binding here because it's exactly the same subject, and we both previously agreed to discuss the matter of both pages there. Please see our discussion above this one where we both agree to discuss the matter there. (3) We have already discussed this with 3rd opinions and the discussion is over. Out of 4 participants, three users are in favor of just quoting the census figure directly. User {{ping|KIENGIR}} insists the RFC is not over but none of the 3 users has anything else to add, and {{ping|KIENGIR}} failed to make a case for why the quotes shouldn't be quoted directly. Only he is active in the discussion at this point. According to policy, when multiple people disagree with you and consensus is against you, you must accept it. Continuing to argue in the face of a clear consensus can be considered disruptive. This is exactly what {{ping|KIENGIR}} is doing now. At what point am I allowed to edit the page in accordance to RFC's decision? Please note that user {{ping|KIENGIR}} will never give consensus. [[User:LordRogalDorn|LordRogalDorn]] ([[User talk:LordRogalDorn|talk]]) 06:14, 6 October 2020 (UTC) |
:: {{ping|Brigade Piron}}, (1) the user {{ping|KIENGIR}} did not revert the page to the status quo as the policy requests, but an even earlier edit of his own choosing, from 7th of June. (2) the RFC is binding here because it's exactly the same subject, and we both previously agreed to discuss the matter of both pages there. Please see our discussion above this one where we both agree to discuss the matter there. (3) We have already discussed this with 3rd opinions and the discussion is over. Out of 4 participants, three users are in favor of just quoting the census figure directly. User {{ping|KIENGIR}} insists the RFC is not over but none of the 3 users has anything else to add, and {{ping|KIENGIR}} failed to make a case for why the quotes shouldn't be quoted directly. Only he is active in the discussion at this point. According to policy, when multiple people disagree with you and consensus is against you, you must accept it. Continuing to argue in the face of a clear consensus can be considered disruptive. This is exactly what {{ping|KIENGIR}} is doing now. At what point am I allowed to edit the page in accordance to RFC's decision? Please note that user {{ping|KIENGIR}} will never give consensus. [[User:LordRogalDorn|LordRogalDorn]] ([[User talk:LordRogalDorn|talk]]) 06:14, 6 October 2020 (UTC) |
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::Now everyone may see again the problematic phenomenon to be justifified: |
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::1. failing again WP:COMPETENCE, unable to check a single diff, not understanding terminologies. The revert is status quo ante. |
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::2. just because some parts are similar and we refer to a discussion another page, does not make an RFC binding, which was raised another page, moreove here the content has not been even identical |
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::3. again, not knowing WP procedures, no the discussion is not over, (and his summarization again fails, btw., failing to interpret sentences, there is ''no disagreement with me'; morem alternatives were asked from the community, and as well not understanding RFC policy about consensus, etc., discussion this user continued all the way, mentioning me, etc.) |
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::That all about reality, and what is disruptive. You don't know when you are allowed to edit? It's interesting, you insist you know everything, and others don't. This is your main problem. I have "given consensus" for every wise edit, but not the opposite. Your bludgeoning everywhere and completely false identification of the happenings are striking and highly concenrning, since ever.([[User:KIENGIR|KIENGIR]] ([[User talk:KIENGIR|talk]]) 10:25, 6 October 2020 (UTC)) |
Revision as of 10:25, 6 October 2020
Military history: Historiography / World War II B‑class | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Hungary B‑class Top‑importance | ||||||||||
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Talk
What a sentence, "ancestral enemies": "The thought of these ancestral enemies [Slovaks, Croats, Romanians] on Hungarian soil was seen as far worse than German control." With such attitudes it is not so difficult to understand what is going on in Hungary now, with extreme right Jobbik earning much of the votes, and nationalistic Orban in power, they simply cannot overcome their own ghosts.... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.81.23.126 (talk) 11:57, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
Is there a reason this article isn't simply included within Hungary? Philippe Beaudette 02:01, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Well, it definitely shouldn't be part of the Hungary article, so I assume you're meaning the History of Hungary article. If you look, World War II national histories are actually quite common. As this topic is expanded, it would become incredibly large. Most countries break up their national histories into time periods... for example History of Poland (1939–1945). If all this was included alongside the entire history of poland, the article would be... a little long. Same goes for Hungary. So History of Hungary will eventually be properly edited into Wikipedia:Summary style. - TheMightyQuill 02:27, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Kassa was probably bombed by the German army, since Hitler wanted Hungary to declare war against the Soviets. At those times, the Soviets had no reason to attack the independent Hungary. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Attilahok (talk • contribs) 13:57, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
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Help needed
I have raised an issue about the history of the Kingdom of Hungary during WWII : you may read about this here. Any help would be very welcome. Thanks, Jean-Jacques Georges (talk) 13:26, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
Proposed revisions re. Jews and Roma
I propose to make some revisions to this article. The main changes would be as follows.
1. “However from the start of German occupation in 1944, Jews and Romas were deported and over 450,000 of them were exterminated in concentration camps.”
I would change this to: “However from the start of German occupation in 1944, Jews and Romas were deported to the Auschwitz Birkenau Concentration and Extermination Camp. By the end of the war, the death toll was between 450,000 and 606,000 Hungarian Jews and an estimated 28,000 Hungarian Roma.”
I would cite Lucy Dawidowicz, The War Against the Jews, Bantam, 1986, p. 403; Randolph Braham, A Magyarországi Holokauszt Földrajzi Enciklopediája (The Geographic Encyclopedia of the Holocaust in Hungary), Park Publishing, 2006, Vol 1, p. 91; and David Crowe, “The Roma Holocaust,” in Barnard Schwartz and Frederick DeCoste, eds., The Holocaust's Ghost: Writings on Art, Politics, Law and Education, University of Alberta Press, 2000, pp. 178–210.
2. “A heroic Swedish diplomat, Raul Wallenberg, was able to smuggle some Jews out of Hungary with fake passports.”
I would change this to: “Swedish diplomat Raul Wallenberg saved thousands of Budapest Jews using Swedish protective passports.”
3. “Anne McCormick, a foreign correspondent for The New York Times, wrote in defense of Hungary as the last refuge of Jews in Europe, declaring that “as long as they exercised any authority in their own house, the Hungarians tried to protect the Jews.”
I would delete this as POV. Hungary’s treatment of the Jews as compared to Germany’s is dealt with elsewhere in the article in a more factual manner.Hirschjoshua (talk) 04:08, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
Kingdom?
Who was king? ♆ CUSH ♆ 08:56, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
- Good question. In fact, there was no King of Hungary in that time, only a Regent, Miklós Horthy. Charles IV of Hungary was the last crowned King of Hungary, but he could not retake his throne. KœrteFa {ταλκ} 10:25, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
- It is easy. Hungary was a kingdom, but the main representative was not a king but regent admiral Horthy. Of course, it does not mean that Hungary had some sea, it was a landlocked coutry (with some potential territorial demands toward Romania and Slovakia, but these coutries were not enemies, but tallies :-) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.91.12.22 (talk) 11:36, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
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Edit war
KIENGIR and LordRogalDorn are currently engaged in an 4-day edit war on this page. I suggest strongly that you discuss whatever changes are at issue on the talk page and seek consensus rather than the face sanctions which will undoubtedly be imposed if you continue. Please consider this a friendly attempt at mediation. Thanks, —Brigade Piron (talk) 12:59, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
- @Brigade Piron:,
- thank you for your feedback. As pointed out as well to the admins at AN3, the discussion is at the Hungarian irredentism talk, where the user have the same problematic edits as in a bunch of pages, refusing to follow our policies. But as you opened this thread, I have to say, the article has been neutral, since it redirected the reader to the Northern Transylvania article, where the censuses with estimations are presented in the best detail, that is out of scope here (the user is bullying the same partially problematic content on several articles). As an involved admin pointed out everywhere the status quo ante version has to be restored.(KIENGIR (talk) 04:58, 13 September 2020 (UTC))
- @Rjensen:,
- Hi, per policy I restored the page for the reasons mentioned above. This also touched your recent edits, which have no problem, they will be readded when the process is closed in the other page's dispute resolution. Regards.(KIENGIR (talk) 00:23, 21 September 2020 (UTC))
- Hi, as KIENGIR pointed out, we are currently discussing this issue on the Hungarian irredentism talk, where the user insists on using the term "Has a significant Romanian population" despite the population at the time being majoritary Romanian, arguing that the word "significant" is appropriate and neutral designation to any direction. I replied that if he feels that way, then we can reach a compromise and state "Has a significant Hungarian population" instead, since according to his own words, its basically the same thing. He has yet to reply whether he agrees or disagrees with this. I also provided a source for the 1940 census, since the beginning of our discussion, yet he is still against posting it on the page, favoring the 1930 and 1941 censuses instead. He is also against stating the 55% Yugoslav population in Vojvodina, as the source states, breaking the illusion through omission that the Hungarians were the majority in that region, he refused on the grounds that "I'm playing with words" despite writing only what the source state with no personal interpretation. Even when the source that he himself provided contradicted him, pointing out that its misleading to state the 1941 census without the mention of the Hungarian immigration following the Second Vienna Award, he still refused the edit, yet again wishing to keep the illusion that the Hungarians were the majority in that region through omission. His response is a vague "it's against the policy" without point out specifically what that policy is, despite me already asking him multiple times to point out the policy he thinks I'm breaking. When I asked for a compromise, he replied that the only compromise he agrees with is posting the 1930 census next to the 1941 census, with no mention of the 1940 census, the population of Vojvodina as stated in the source or the mention of mass immigration. At this point, I believe he is filibustering to avoid edits that he doesn't like. We continue our discussion in the Hungarian irredentism talk, which is why we (hopefully) both believe there no need to have the same discussion on 2 different talk pages. Hopefully, we can settle this with a compromise. LordRogalDorn (talk) 08:16, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
- No need to repeat yourself twice. We don't know who was the majority that time. I replied to everything. I told what are the problem with the claimed "1940 census" along with broader problems. Sorry, I am able to read a source. And again, nothing contradicted me, this you did after your controversial edit and the Hitchins quote together. I responded to you in detailed extent, just beucase you refuse to undestand and see some thing is not on me.(KIENGIR (talk) 08:26, 22 September 2020 (UTC))
- Hi, as KIENGIR pointed out, we are currently discussing this issue on the Hungarian irredentism talk, where the user insists on using the term "Has a significant Romanian population" despite the population at the time being majoritary Romanian, arguing that the word "significant" is appropriate and neutral designation to any direction. I replied that if he feels that way, then we can reach a compromise and state "Has a significant Hungarian population" instead, since according to his own words, its basically the same thing. He has yet to reply whether he agrees or disagrees with this. I also provided a source for the 1940 census, since the beginning of our discussion, yet he is still against posting it on the page, favoring the 1930 and 1941 censuses instead. He is also against stating the 55% Yugoslav population in Vojvodina, as the source states, breaking the illusion through omission that the Hungarians were the majority in that region, he refused on the grounds that "I'm playing with words" despite writing only what the source state with no personal interpretation. Even when the source that he himself provided contradicted him, pointing out that its misleading to state the 1941 census without the mention of the Hungarian immigration following the Second Vienna Award, he still refused the edit, yet again wishing to keep the illusion that the Hungarians were the majority in that region through omission. His response is a vague "it's against the policy" without point out specifically what that policy is, despite me already asking him multiple times to point out the policy he thinks I'm breaking. When I asked for a compromise, he replied that the only compromise he agrees with is posting the 1930 census next to the 1941 census, with no mention of the 1940 census, the population of Vojvodina as stated in the source or the mention of mass immigration. At this point, I believe he is filibustering to avoid edits that he doesn't like. We continue our discussion in the Hungarian irredentism talk, which is why we (hopefully) both believe there no need to have the same discussion on 2 different talk pages. Hopefully, we can settle this with a compromise. LordRogalDorn (talk) 08:16, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
@KIENGIR: and @LordRogalDorn:, if you continue to edit war on this page you will both be blocked irrespective of which of you is in the right. Please read WP:3RR. —Brigade Piron (talk) 17:05, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
- @Brigade Piron:,
- I am not edit warring, I restored the page per policy, by disruption it is evident, check the evidence above. Of course, I will not continue further, you can be fully sure I am aware of our policies and keeping it, as I did so far, so no need to remind me especially. Thank You(KIENGIR (talk) 18:18, 5 October 2020 (UTC))
- @Brigade Piron:, (1) the user @KIENGIR: did not revert the page to the status quo as the policy requests, but an even earlier edit of his own choosing, from 7th of June. (2) the RFC is binding here because it's exactly the same subject, and we both previously agreed to discuss the matter of both pages there. Please see our discussion above this one where we both agree to discuss the matter there. (3) We have already discussed this with 3rd opinions and the discussion is over. Out of 4 participants, three users are in favor of just quoting the census figure directly. User @KIENGIR: insists the RFC is not over but none of the 3 users has anything else to add, and @KIENGIR: failed to make a case for why the quotes shouldn't be quoted directly. Only he is active in the discussion at this point. According to policy, when multiple people disagree with you and consensus is against you, you must accept it. Continuing to argue in the face of a clear consensus can be considered disruptive. This is exactly what @KIENGIR: is doing now. At what point am I allowed to edit the page in accordance to RFC's decision? Please note that user @KIENGIR: will never give consensus. LordRogalDorn (talk) 06:14, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
- Now everyone may see again the problematic phenomenon to be justifified:
- 1. failing again WP:COMPETENCE, unable to check a single diff, not understanding terminologies. The revert is status quo ante.
- 2. just because some parts are similar and we refer to a discussion another page, does not make an RFC binding, which was raised another page, moreove here the content has not been even identical
- 3. again, not knowing WP procedures, no the discussion is not over, (and his summarization again fails, btw., failing to interpret sentences, there is no disagreement with me'; morem alternatives were asked from the community, and as well not understanding RFC policy about consensus, etc., discussion this user continued all the way, mentioning me, etc.)
- That all about reality, and what is disruptive. You don't know when you are allowed to edit? It's interesting, you insist you know everything, and others don't. This is your main problem. I have "given consensus" for every wise edit, but not the opposite. Your bludgeoning everywhere and completely false identification of the happenings are striking and highly concenrning, since ever.(KIENGIR (talk) 10:25, 6 October 2020 (UTC))