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::@Supreme Deliciousness, you are twisting some rules around. BBC is reliable, but the interviewee is hardly notable. And the encyclopedia also upholds not giving [[WP:undue weight]]. I listed reasons for its (partial) removal and for the moving of another part to the proper article-you have not actually countered my rationale for doing so. The point is that there this random chef's conclusion is not controversial. What significance does it have? --[[User:Shamir1|Shamir1]] ([[User talk:Shamir1|talk]]) 01:23, 15 March 2010 (UTC) |
::@Supreme Deliciousness, you are twisting some rules around. BBC is reliable, but the interviewee is hardly notable. And the encyclopedia also upholds not giving [[WP:undue weight]]. I listed reasons for its (partial) removal and for the moving of another part to the proper article-you have not actually countered my rationale for doing so. The point is that there this random chef's conclusion is not controversial. What significance does it have? --[[User:Shamir1|Shamir1]] ([[User talk:Shamir1|talk]]) 01:23, 15 March 2010 (UTC) |
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Several people disagree with the removal of it, me and Macrakis:[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hummus&action=historysubmit&diff=348661911&oldid=348642322], I find it relevant and important info about Israeli adoption of Arab food. The part you added to the Israeli article has been removed, and even if it was there (which it isn't) it could still be in both articles. You have no consensus for its removal. I have re added a part of it (not all) --[[User:Supreme Deliciousness|Supreme Deliciousness]] ([[User talk:Supreme Deliciousness|talk]]) 19:02, 15 March 2010 (UTC) |
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::: I would just like to say that I support nsaum75 and Shamir1 position. [[User:Talgalili|Talgalili]] ([[User talk:Talgalili|talk]]) 09:39, 15 March 2010 (UTC) |
::: I would just like to say that I support nsaum75 and Shamir1 position. [[User:Talgalili|Talgalili]] ([[User talk:Talgalili|talk]]) 09:39, 15 March 2010 (UTC) |
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Erasing of the Etiological connection between Hummus and the bible
The user Lockesdonkey Erased the Etimology origin of hummus in Hebrew. I reverted the change, and would like to say that this section is of high importance due to the jihad some Lebanese writers decided to take upon Israelis and Hummus.
If you think that this Etimology is in correct, consider adding it to the article, not removing it all completely.
Talgalili (talk) 10:34, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
- As you can see the etymology has been discussed before and the consensus at the time was against addition. The reference in the Book of Ruth is usually taken to be to vinegar. This article is about the dish of mashed chickpeas+tahini+olive oil+lemon juice+garlic with optinal seasonings or garnishes. Our extensive searching for sources has turned up no reliable source that desribes the dish beign used any earlier than in 19th century Damascus. The earliest evidence I know of lemons in the Mediterranean area are the murals preserved by Versuvius. Tahini isn't evidenced until later. The other items were around in biblical times, but it's a leap to saying that anything around then is similar enough to count as modern hummus.
- What you have inserted is also unreferenced. Due to the edit-warring that has gone on, we're quite insistent on proper referencing at this article. Due to the lack of refernce I am removing it. Also due to conventions around WP:BRD, can I suggest that you don't add this again without obtaining consensus. The likes of Gwen Gale and Makrakis have no political axes to grind and so consensus to insert is obtainable but only if reliable references that also establish relevance to the article subject ar provided.
- Finally, can I suggest moving this subsection down and changing the heading to level 2? It's more likely to get noticed by more contributors if it's at the bottom of the talk page. If you don't object to this move at your next contribution, then I'll assume that you're okay with this refactoring.--Peter cohen (talk) 11:58, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
- Hi Peter.
- First - I moved the discussion to your suggestion (thanks for being so kind as to suggest).
- Regarding the rest, from my perspective I reverted a change made by a contributer. I failed to note that the edit previous to it was disputed. Thank you for undoing my mistake, I accept your claim that a valid reference is needed.
- At the same time (as a native Hebrew speaker) I would like to say that when you write
The reference in the Book of Ruth is usually taken to be to vinegar.
- I would like to ask you for a reference to this statement.
- When I checked in the Hebrew Wikipedia:
http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%97%D7%99%D7%9E%D7%A6%D7%94#.D7.9E.D7.A7.D7.95.D7.A8_.D7.94.D7.A9.D7.9D
- What I found was two explanations to way Hummus is coined CHIMTZA
- When the plant is growing it is acidic (and in Hebrew CHIMTZA seems to come from the same root as CHAMUTZ sour).
- After it's cooking, the dish can become sour quite fast (especially thinking about a hot climate area as in Israel/Lebanon
- I am not claiming that this is the correct explanation of the word, but I AM saying it is not (by far) far fetched, and (as I wrote) would like reference for people claiming for and against the explanation, which is outside of this article.
- With much (honest) respect, Talgalili (talk) 03:07, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
- Please see my earlier note (dated 14:16, 10 July 2009). In brief, even if it is true (and it may well be) that Hebrew Ḥ-M-Ṣ (as found in the Book of Ruth) is cognate to Arabic حمّص, it is completely irrelevant to this article, which is not about chickpeas, vinegar, or sourness, but about a dish composed of chickpeas and tahini (among other things). --macrakis (talk) 03:30, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
- Hi Macrakis,
- Are you saying this should go under a chickpeas article or that of vinegar?
- With all do respect for Arabic (and I have respect), the bible was written in Hebrew. Which intuitively (and without being an expert in the field of linguistic) tells me that one of the first questions should be the meaning of the word in an Hebrew context.
- And what Ruth was offered is to dip a piece of bread in CHIMTZA, for the slight chance that it was actually Hummus (even if it was chickpeas and water without the Tahini), I think it is at least worth mentioning in the article as a possibility (the same as there is a section in the article about the dispute).
- Macrakis, we both agree that this is a real possibility for interpretation. And we both agree that this is not a sure connection.
- What do you think about my proposal that the article will state that there is a claim that the meaning of the word CHIMTZA in the bible is Hummus. And leave it at that?
- If you think this is a part of the Israeli Labenies dispute (which I think is the place from which the importance of this dialog stems from), it might be best to put this section inside the dispute section in the article, instead of in the Etiological section.
- Talgalili (talk) 08:13, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks for your contribution. No, I don't think any of this needs to be mentioned in this article. The consensus of scholarship as far as anyone has established here is that Ruth's Ḥ-M-Ṣ has nothing to do with hummus bi tahini. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, the only source we have for that claim is by a satirist. The Hebrew word CHIMTZA would certainly be appropriate in the wiktionary entries for vinegar and chickpea, but not in the Wikipedia entries: Wikipedia is not a dictionary. (By the way, please look in a dictionary for the difference between etiology and etymology... not to mention entomology :-).) --macrakis (talk) 12:34, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Picture
Geez, never realized how contentious Hummus was. Before y'all get too distracted, might I suggest replacing the first picture accompanying this article. It basically looks like puke. I understand hummus isn't the most photogenic food, but there's got to be something better looking than this one. Jmdeur (talk) 13:40, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
The hummus war - Abu Gosh, Israel made the largest dish (08.01.2010)
Should this be reported in the article ?
http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/01/07/hummus.wars/
Talgalili (talk) 13:40, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
- I think we should get rid of all these Guinness Book 'records' like the "largest Caesar salad", the "largest bowl of hummus", etc. --macrakis (talk) 14:51, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
- If it was by itself - I would agree with you. But since this is a part of a larger controversy having to do with this dish, I tend to favor elaborating on it. Talgalili (talk) 18:07, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
- This be addition example of "Israel"i theft of arab food, perhap it belong in section on food theft. Ani medjool (talk) 22:16, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
- Perhaps you're unaware, but there are Arabs in Israel, like in Abu Gosh. Nick Fitzpatrick (talk) 22:28, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
- The record holder is Jawadat Ibrahim Ibrahim , an Israeli Arab. Are you claiming he is stealing Arab food? Marokwitz (talk) 09:08, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
- This be addition example of "Israel"i theft of arab food, perhap it belong in section on food theft. Ani medjool (talk) 22:16, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
- If it was by itself - I would agree with you. But since this is a part of a larger controversy having to do with this dish, I tend to favor elaborating on it. Talgalili (talk) 18:07, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
- Dear Ani, as Nick just wrote to you - this is not about Jews vs Arabs, or Israelis VS Arabs. This is (as it seems) Lebanese vs Israelis. In this case, it is Arab Lebanese vs Arab Israelis. P.S: As shooky said well in the article I just cited:
- "Trying to make a copyright claim over hummus is like claiming for the rights to bread or wine," said Shooky Galili, an Israeli whose blog, dedicated to all things hummus, bears the credo "give chickpeas a chance."
- "Hummus is a centuries old Arab dish -- nobody owns it, it belongs to the region," continued Galili, who believes the rivalry is about control over the hummus market. Globally, the market is worth $1 billion, according to Abboud.
- Talgalili (talk) 10:15, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
- Dear Ani, as Nick just wrote to you - this is not about Jews vs Arabs, or Israelis VS Arabs. This is (as it seems) Lebanese vs Israelis. In this case, it is Arab Lebanese vs Arab Israelis. P.S: As shooky said well in the article I just cited:
- I think this is definitely an interesting and noteworthy addition to the article. Breein1007 (talk) 03:18, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
- As pointed out by others the trivium of the world's largest bowl of hummus is within the context of a political dispute. I can conceive of this being included in an accepable manner. Of course, if the Arab Israeli is then trumped by an American hummus manufacturer, the record ceases to be of interest.--Peter cohen (talk) 12:52, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for all the replies people. I added a paragraph about the matter, I hope it turned out well.Talgalili (talk) 19:31, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
- I've reworded it. The only thing that makes it encyclopedic is that it is part of what the article title calls the hummus wars. That needs playing up while the size of the rival dishes are unimportant.--Peter cohen (talk) 00:20, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
- Good work Peter. I wonder if it is worth mentioning that it is a Guinness record... Talgalili (talk) 12:16, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
- Keep in mind, Guinness records are mostly meant for the pop-culture publishing market and when strived for, are mostly marketing ploys of one kind or another. Hence, if a "marketing feud" as to hummus has indeed been widely noted and Guinness records are a slice of that, it could be encyclopedic. Gwen Gale (talk) 14:35, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
- I do mention Guinness. I have now fixed my late night spelling mistake.--Peter cohen (talk) 15:45, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
- Good work Peter. I wonder if it is worth mentioning that it is a Guinness record... Talgalili (talk) 12:16, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
- PeterCohen, that is your POV, and has no basis here. When someone attempts to make the largest pizza, or omelette, there is no controversy about pizza wars between the US and Italy. It's a laconic item that is legitimate in the article. If you have proof that the Abu Gosh restaurant owner Jawadat Ibrahim Ibrahim is an agent of the Israeli government, please add this info. --Shuki (talk) 21:35, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
- If you had acually read the thread, you would notice that there are two views expressed here. One is that trivia about hummus records are not noteworthy in themselves. The other is that the records may be noteworthy because they occured within the context of Lebanon seeking to restrict the use of the label to exclude Israeli sources. This thread has had participants with views as diverse as Ani Medjool's and Breein1007 who both have indicated that they thought there might be grounds for including this material. (And you should know how unusual it is for them even to appear to be in agreement on anything.) However, despite the range of underlying views, no one hass said "let's place this recordon its own away from any menion of the dispute over ownership of the dish that was mentioned in the source article." It is your attempt to separate the record from the ownership issue that is clearly against consensus.--Peter cohen (talk) 22:30, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
- With all due respect Peter cohen, please do not misrepresent my views or put words in my mouth when I haven't declared my view on a certain issue. While I did certainly say that I found the record noteworthy for the article, I have yet to think about or make conclusions on whether or not I find its placement within the article appropriate. Also, I don't really see the duality between mine and ani medjool's opinions here. Thanks, Breein1007 (talk) 23:19, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
- If you had acually read the thread, you would notice that there are two views expressed here. One is that trivia about hummus records are not noteworthy in themselves. The other is that the records may be noteworthy because they occured within the context of Lebanon seeking to restrict the use of the label to exclude Israeli sources. This thread has had participants with views as diverse as Ani Medjool's and Breein1007 who both have indicated that they thought there might be grounds for including this material. (And you should know how unusual it is for them even to appear to be in agreement on anything.) However, despite the range of underlying views, no one hass said "let's place this recordon its own away from any menion of the dispute over ownership of the dish that was mentioned in the source article." It is your attempt to separate the record from the ownership issue that is clearly against consensus.--Peter cohen (talk) 22:30, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
Trivia about "Isreal" hummus not notable and be not belong in article unless it in section about theft of arab food by "Israel". Ani medjool (talk) 22:59, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
- Ani, so you are saying that if the record belonged to a Lebanese person, it would then be significant? You know this is called POV. --Shuki (talk) 23:46, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
- Other food articles have WP:RS records mentioned in them -- Pizza, Pita etc.. Perhaps it would be better if the information was worked into the "controversy" section, as it is the controversy with Lebanon which helped, in part, fuel the competition in the first place. --nsaum75¡שיחת! 03:53, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
- Please find RS to support that and show that about the parties involved, not just some off-hand remark from a reporter. I don't particularly think that 'Abu Gosh restaurant owner Jawadat Ibrahim Ibrahim' thinks he is fighting a war with Lebanon. And even if it was a Israel-Lebanon rivalry, this is quite non-controversial and widespread around the world between countries, cities, organizations, companies. --Shuki (talk) 08:39, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
- CNN is a reliable source. And the article put the record in the context of th ebroader dispute.--Peter cohen (talk) 13:03, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
- My two pence: The marketing feud over hummus which has been going on lately "between" the Lebanon and Israel is notable to the topic and CNN is a reliable enough source for citations on it. Gwen Gale (talk) 13:14, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
- Please find RS to support that and show that about the parties involved, not just some off-hand remark from a reporter. I don't particularly think that 'Abu Gosh restaurant owner Jawadat Ibrahim Ibrahim' thinks he is fighting a war with Lebanon. And even if it was a Israel-Lebanon rivalry, this is quite non-controversial and widespread around the world between countries, cities, organizations, companies. --Shuki (talk) 08:39, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
- Other food articles have WP:RS records mentioned in them -- Pizza, Pita etc.. Perhaps it would be better if the information was worked into the "controversy" section, as it is the controversy with Lebanon which helped, in part, fuel the competition in the first place. --nsaum75¡שיחת! 03:53, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
I have now removed the paragraph. Shuki seems bent on his one man campaign to keep shifting it away from the controversies section. This is despite Marokwitz having initially placed it there after saying that the fact was of interest because of its being in the context of the Labanon-Israel dispute, my having replaced it there after mentioning the same context as the only grounds for inclusion, nsaum75 considering the contorversies section the appropriate place, Ani Medjool and Gwen Gale agreeing with me that the fact is only worth including in the context of the Israel-Labanon dispute, and Makrakis, the editor who has done most to maintain the quality of this article, arguing that Guinness trivia should not be included for its own sake.
There is quite clearly no consensus for Shuki's preferred position. If an admin were to clamp down on his WP:Tendentious editing, then we could restore the parapraph to the plce where Marokwitz put it. However, until someone does do so it is quite clear that Shuki will keep enforcing his one man consensus and his eccentric interpretaion of WP:BRD which claims that his positioning is somehow the default place to leave things while we argue it out.--Peter cohen (talk) 13:28, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
- I've copy-edited the above. I want to reaffirm that I have no objection to something like my previous version of the paragraph being reinserted into the controversies section. The two things that have no clear consensus are a placement elsewhere or an inclusion in a manner that does not link the record to the ownership dispute.--Peter cohen (talk) 15:33, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
To the extent that the "biggest hummus" thing is part of the propaganda war, I suppose it should be mentioned. But in that case, it doesn't make sense to mention only the current record-holder, but to demonstrate the contention by mentioning more than one record holder, e.g. "The propaganda war extends to competing over 'world record hummus', with alternating Lebanese, Israeli, and Palestinian claimants.<ref>ref to recent Lebanese record-holder</ref><ref>ref to recent Israeli record-holder</ref><ref>ref to recent Palestinian record-holder</ref>" --macrakis (talk) 18:22, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
- The CNN report does at least mention a Lebanese consortium as the previous holders. I don't know where the mention of Palestinians and Israelis as claimants comes from. My understanding is that the new holder is an Israeli of Palestinian descent. There's nothing in the article that indicates whether he identifies as Israeli, Palestinian, Israeli Arab, Israeli Palestinian or what.--Peter cohen (talk)
- I suggest you guys be careful with giving WP:UNDUE to this alleged Hummus war. CNN is a reliable source, but again, it is merely one news item and there should be multiple references to back up this alleged war / controversy. Macrakis, I don't appreciate that you want to add more junk to the article unless you can find where else on WP articles tolerate having a list of world records like you suggest. Peter, please stop the disruptive editing and reinsert the paragraph you deleted entirely. There is absolutely no consensus here to remove it and is in fact your 'one man campaign' against me. --Shuki (talk) 23:41, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
- Dear Shuki, please see this google search on "the hummus war" - many more items then just that of CNN... Talgalili (talk) 10:31, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
- Shuki, I certainly don't want to "add more junk" to the article. Please re-read what I wrote above: I would rather we remove the silliness around "world record hummus" entirely. But if it is notable as part of some sort of (ridiculous) rivalry, then we should include evidence of the rivalry. There is no evidence of rivalry if we include only the most recent episode of one-upsmanship. What's more, by moving the evidence (as opposed to the claim of rivalry) to a footnote, we in fact make the article more concise, with the effect of removing junk. --macrakis (talk) 17:47, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
- Talgalili, as I said, as far as I'm concerned, this is trivial and uninteresting. But as I also said, if we think it is noteworthy, then it is noteworthy as a rivalry and not because some particular person in some particular place currently holds the record. I say: document the rivalry, not the silly record. --macrakis (talk) 20:55, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
- The don't put it in a 'controversy' section because there is no controversy. If you look at other pages where Guinness records are quoted, there is nothing about rivalries so refrain from making this article the exception. --Shuki (talk) 17:46, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
- Well, first of all, "controversy" is a poor title for the section: we should make it something more specific to what is actually being discussed here, say "Hummus in Israel". That section should discuss the history of the adoption by Jewish immigrants to Palestine of local foods (the Janna Gur content) as well as the reaction by Lebanese and Palestinians to their perception that the Israelis had "appropriated" hummus and the rivalry between Lebanese and Israeli claimants to Guiness records. Can we all agree on that? --macrakis (talk) 18:40, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
Etymology
I rv Ip [1] No source added showing the claim that it is not Arab but Israeli, no reason given for removal of etymology. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 11:15, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
"Lebanese hummus" - titles in the pictures
I see continues edits changing the names of the pictures from "hummus" to "Lebanese style hummus" and so on. I would rather take the word "Lebanese" out of them (especially due to the sensitivity of "Hummus ownership" issue).
If anyone reject the suggestion, I could just find pictures of "Israeli hummus", and will start making sure to insert them into the article. (Update: just to be clear, I was being sarcastic)
Talgalili (talk) 16:51, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
- Gwen - what do you think? Talgalili (talk) 20:22, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
- It looks to me like the authors of both photographs described them as Lebanese style Hummus. I don't really know what non-Lebanese style Hummus is for a comparison. I don't think we should be reinterpreting what the photographer's described their pictures as being. Does Israeli, Palestinian, Syrian, or any other Hummus look particularly different, or is it served differently? Are specific styles native to specific places, even if they were later shared or traded? ← George talk 22:30, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
- Hello George. The short answer to this is that every Hummus place will serve it differently. The longer answer is this: I will now give you 9 links to different (randomly choosen) pictures, showing the hummus from different hummus places in Israel. I personally can't say about any of them that they are any more or less "Lebanese style" then the one presented in the Article. Here are the links: [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10]. Talgalili (talk) 03:32, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
- How interesting! I definitely wouldn't call any of those Lebanese style. In fact, if you hadn't told me, I wouldn't have guessed that most of those were even hummus, as they look nothing like how hummus is traditionally served in Lebanon. I might have to visit Israel one of these days, because now I'm hungry to try some of these variations! If we can find something that describes (or even better, pictures) some of the more common Israeli (Arab Israeli? Palestinian?) variants on hummus, I think that would add value to the article as well. The complication will be determining which hummus comes from where, but maybe there are books or magazines describing the different serving styles of each region? ← George talk 01:36, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- Hello George. The short answer to this is that every Hummus place will serve it differently. The longer answer is this: I will now give you 9 links to different (randomly choosen) pictures, showing the hummus from different hummus places in Israel. I personally can't say about any of them that they are any more or less "Lebanese style" then the one presented in the Article. Here are the links: [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10]. Talgalili (talk) 03:32, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
- I think the one image, other than that of the canned hummus (ew, btw), which carries the caption Lebanese hummus... and has Lebanese in the image name, straightforwardly echoes the uploader's memory of being in the Lebanon far more than any notion of the presentation itself being Lebanese. I also see that it's the uploader's recollection of how the dish was served by a Palestinian housekeeper. Hence I see no need to keep Lebanese in that caption. Gwen Gale (talk) 13:15, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
Image
I have changed position of two pictures, so this one is in the top: [11]
It shows how traditional hummus is served, the other one with the pine nuts, I think it should be removed, I have never seen it served like that or heard anyone putting pine nuts in it. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 19:51, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
- While I don't personally care about the order of these two photos, I would point out that your lack of experience with chumus with pine nuts doesn't mean it doesn't exist (or isn't popular). I myself have seen it served this way many times. Breein1007 (talk) 20:03, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
- I agree with Breein1007 point. Talgalili (talk) 20:23, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
- It's not a surprise that someone who's used to eating humus from a can has never seen it served with pine nuts. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 22:18, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
- I agree with Breein1007 point. Talgalili (talk) 20:23, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
- I must say, User:Supreme Deliciousness's post sounds like original research to me. I'll undo the swap, but more input is welcome. Gwen Gale (talk) 22:27, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
- Original research covers publishing original material, not editorial decisions, such as which images to use or where to use them. And while I've eaten plenty of Hummus (never from a can, which sounds pretty disgusting), I too have never seen it served with pine nuts. That said, we should try to find out where which varieties are served (and if they're limited to specific locals), similar to the discussion above about the pictures of Lebanese style Hummus served with garbanzo beans. ← George talk 22:36, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
- The editor was citing his own experiences with hummus, that's original research. I'm happy to say, I'm ok with the pine nuts image because it's a Levantine way of serving this Levantine dish and moreover, editorially speaking, I think it looks cool. If there's a consensus for another image in the lead, that'll show up. Gwen Gale (talk) 22:40, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
- Original research covers publishing original material, not editorial decisions, such as which images to use or where to use them. And while I've eaten plenty of Hummus (never from a can, which sounds pretty disgusting), I too have never seen it served with pine nuts. That said, we should try to find out where which varieties are served (and if they're limited to specific locals), similar to the discussion above about the pictures of Lebanese style Hummus served with garbanzo beans. ← George talk 22:36, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
- Better to lead with the most generic image of only hummus and olive oil than a specifc regional one which has OR importance. All the pictures here show hummus served with olive oil. Some show other add-ons, these should be deprecated to the 'plain' serving. This is not OR at all. --Shuki (talk) 22:49, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, I think calling that image generic is not OR. I shall weep for the loss of the beloved pine nuts image from the lead. Gwen Gale (talk) 22:56, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
- Just to share with you my struggle: I restrained my POV from bumping up the chickpeas photo, and instead made a compromise with myself on the plain one. --Shuki (talk) 23:35, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
- My only snare with that one is not what it shows, but that it's an ugly snap (as an aside food isn't easy to photograph, there are whole businesses/studios set up to do nothing but and what they do to the food to make it look appealing is often... not). Gwen Gale (talk) 10:09, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
- Just to share with you my struggle: I restrained my POV from bumping up the chickpeas photo, and instead made a compromise with myself on the plain one. --Shuki (talk) 23:35, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, I think calling that image generic is not OR. I shall weep for the loss of the beloved pine nuts image from the lead. Gwen Gale (talk) 22:56, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
I agree with Supreme Deliciousness and George. Pine nut hummus not common presentation. It shoudl be remove, or least not belong at start of page. Ani medjool (talk) 23:26, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
- Ani medjool, in Israel this is very common, and can be ordered in most hummus places I have visited. Talgalili (talk) 03:37, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
- But that make no difference. Hummus be arab food that "Israel" took and try pass off as own food. So pine nut photo not representative of Arab food but in the stead adulterated version that "Israel" use to attempt to create cuisine and history where none exist. Ani medjool (talk) 00:30, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- Ani, all cuisines borrow from other cuisines, and make new variants. Pizza clearly comes from Italy, but it is now a very American dish, with many American variants. Even if those variants are nothing like the original (Hawaiian pizza with pineapple!, Southern pizza with barbecue!), they may well become notable variants. Our job on Wikipedia is not to judge which ones are "adulterated", but to report accurately on what exists in the world and how it got that way. We should of course separate accurate history from ridiculous stories (e.g. that hummus bi tahini is mentioned in the Old Testament). --macrakis (talk) 01:07, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- Macrakis is exactly correct. Regarding the picture in the lead, I think we should go with whichever is the most common (or generic, as Skuki put it) serving style. ← George talk 01:39, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- Editorially, I think the more generic image now in the lead is fitting, moreover because the composition is esthetically pleasing enough and the technical quality is bright and sharp. Also, what Macrakis says about that (way mistaken) take on the Old Testament and modern hummus bears much to heed, the only way that should ever make it into the article text would be to show readers that there is no historical or linguistic support for it. Gwen Gale (talk) 13:25, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- Macrakis is exactly correct. Regarding the picture in the lead, I think we should go with whichever is the most common (or generic, as Skuki put it) serving style. ← George talk 01:39, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- Ani, all cuisines borrow from other cuisines, and make new variants. Pizza clearly comes from Italy, but it is now a very American dish, with many American variants. Even if those variants are nothing like the original (Hawaiian pizza with pineapple!, Southern pizza with barbecue!), they may well become notable variants. Our job on Wikipedia is not to judge which ones are "adulterated", but to report accurately on what exists in the world and how it got that way. We should of course separate accurate history from ridiculous stories (e.g. that hummus bi tahini is mentioned in the Old Testament). --macrakis (talk) 01:07, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
- But that make no difference. Hummus be arab food that "Israel" took and try pass off as own food. So pine nut photo not representative of Arab food but in the stead adulterated version that "Israel" use to attempt to create cuisine and history where none exist. Ani medjool (talk) 00:30, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
Radical change
like this: [12] needs consensus. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 00:08, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
- I would hardly call that a radical change. It depends on how RS refers to the food. Does it say its Levantine or specifically Levantine Arab? --nsaum75¡שיחת! 09:24, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Controversy
The section included many uncontroversial things, and almost sounded like an essay with the thesis "Hummus is not Israeli; it's Arab." I responsibly moved a part of that section the Israeli cuisine article. The material had to do with such history and about what foods in general (not hummus specifically) became popular in Israel and gives an argument as to why that is so.
The other uncontroversial note is that from a random BBC interview. The interviewee is certainly not notable by any means, and there is nothing controversial about his conclusion that he considers hummus Arab food. No controversy arose from those statement. --Shamir1 (talk) 01:20, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- "Wikipedia:Quote#When_not_to_use_quotations" states that quotes should not be used when "the quotation is being used to substitute rhetorical language in place of more neutral, dispassionate tone preferred for encyclopedias. This can be a backdoor method of inserting a non-neutral treatment of a controversial subject into Wikipedia's narrative on the subject, and should be avoided.
- It is my feeling that the section you removed existed for that purpose...ie to make a point while skirting WP regulations regarding neutral encyclopedic language. However, do not be surprised if someone tries to re-add it. Those quotes have been inserted in most articles about foods which Israel and her Arab neighbors both enjoy. --nsaum75¡שיחת! 03:13, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
Those sections from the Janna Gur source and BBC program is will sourced, from reliable sources, and mentions important history, you did not have any consensus for its removal, I'm gonna re ad it as soon as I can. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 09:00, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- What do you mean "as soon as you can"??? I'm not sure I follow what you are saying.. But anyhow, you missed the point, SD. Its not that they're not WP:RS, its the fact that they are extensively quoted to make a WP:POINT and do not conform to WP's policy on quotes (which I stated above). If you can transcribe them into neutral dispassionate encyclopedic tone, then please do.--nsaum75¡שיחת! 09:59, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- @Supreme Deliciousness, you are twisting some rules around. BBC is reliable, but the interviewee is hardly notable. And the encyclopedia also upholds not giving WP:undue weight. I listed reasons for its (partial) removal and for the moving of another part to the proper article-you have not actually countered my rationale for doing so. The point is that there this random chef's conclusion is not controversial. What significance does it have? --Shamir1 (talk) 01:23, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
Several people disagree with the removal of it, me and Macrakis:[13], I find it relevant and important info about Israeli adoption of Arab food. The part you added to the Israeli article has been removed, and even if it was there (which it isn't) it could still be in both articles. You have no consensus for its removal. I have re added a part of it (not all) --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 19:02, 15 March 2010 (UTC)