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Inaccuracy and Bias
Many Catholics oppose the official teachings of the Church on homosexuality, and in some locations, such as the United States, show stronger support for gay rights than the general population.
The only backing for this sweeping statement is one survey paid for by the Arcus Foundation which is a homosexual advocacy group.
Being Catholic means recognizing the Church as the one founded by Jesus Christ, and accepting its teaching authority about matters of faith and morals. The source of opposition to basic Catholic teachings is not Catholics but ex-Catholics, nominal Catholics and non-Catholics.
There are more than 1,000,000 Catholic priests, nuns and religious world wide. Only a handful of dissenters are actually mentioned. So why is the longest section about dissent? — Preceding unsigned comment added by SelfOwnedCat (talk • contribs) 06:48, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
- Perhaps you could write more about dogma if you feel there is more to be said. Unfortunately for you, your personal opinion that progressive Catholics are not "real" Catholics is not a source we go on here. If you believe that the PRRI is not a reliable source, please take it to WP:RSN. Oh, and sign your posts with four tildes (~~~~)! Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 11:53, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
- But the opinion that "progressive" Catholics are real Catholics does count? Why do you have different criteria for different positions?
- By the way, it is the religion itself that has to define what is necessary to be part of it, not some third party. Anyways, the term "progressive" also was not backed up with any source. So it does not fit the article too.
- Tiago Becerra Paolini (talk) 06:14, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
'Progressive' is an attractive and slippery word. 'Saint' is the word Catholic people use to describe those who make visible progress in piety, the interior life, good works etc. The euphemistic sense in which you are using the word 'progress' also has Catholic synonyms: protestant, agnostic, atheist, heretic etc.
If it is 'progressive' to disagree with the Church's teachings about human sexuality, is it equally 'progressive' to disagree with other teachings of the Church?
Regarding personal opinion, what other kind of opinion is there? Regarding sources, you can find a source for anything. Sources are not a substitute for reason, truth and fairness.SelfOwnedCat (talk) 05:28, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
- Okay, that's nice, but I'm not sure such an attitude is really compatible with a desire to better the encyclopedia. (See WP:TRUTH, etc.) Thank you for signing your post this time! Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 05:46, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
- Is this article about truth a, hmmm... welll, a truth? You are carefully avoiding topics that shows you are being incoherent. It is true that there are no truth, talk about self-contradiction...
- Tiago Becerra Paolini (talk) 06:14, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
Why is reason and logic incompatible with editing this particular article? I challenge you to define what you actually mean by Progressive Catholic. This is key to understanding why the article is inaccurate and biased.SelfOwnedCat (talk) 18:14, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
- I don't see how it's relevant. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 20:04, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
- It is relevant because it is the topic in question. You cannot make an article by throwing random terms without a meaning.
- Tiago Becerra Paolini (talk) 06:14, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
Only WP:TRUTH can entitle you to avoid engaging in a real discussion. Surely you do not want the malodorous, scandalous, laughable appearance of actually possessing WP:TRUTH? SelfOwnedCat (talk) 06:07, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
- SOC has a point, it is worthwhile to note where that survey came from. - Haymaker (talk) 11:09, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
- And to note who signed the "theologian" letter mentioned in the dissent section. - Haymaker (talk) 04:51, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
- Until we have neutral sources that comment on this fact, whether or not it's worthy of inclusion is absolutely irrelevant. Write an article for a reliable, neutral paper that links these theologians' academic status to the memorandum and get it published. Until then, you don't get to synthesize this information. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 05:01, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
- Earlier in this discussion you accepted an pro-homosexual source. Now you says that the sources have to be neutral. You are just applying different criteria for different positions (again).
- Tiago Becerra Paolini (talk) 06:14, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
- Until we have neutral sources that comment on this fact, whether or not it's worthy of inclusion is absolutely irrelevant. Write an article for a reliable, neutral paper that links these theologians' academic status to the memorandum and get it published. Until then, you don't get to synthesize this information. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 05:01, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
- And to note who signed the "theologian" letter mentioned in the dissent section. - Haymaker (talk) 04:51, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
What I don't understand is how it is supposed to make sense. Wether or not Catholics are more prone to support gay rights in the US is irrelevant, as supporting gay rights (such as not being treated as an outcast in society, or turned away from jobs, etc) doesn't mean that they disagree with the Church on wether or not homosexuality is sinful. I mean, the Pope has spoken out strongly against homophobic violence, but that doesn't mean he regards homosexuality as acceptable. Pavuvu (talk) 02:31, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
- On the other hand, the Vatican and other more local seats of the RCC have thrown their weight behind laws to keep homosexuality illegal, to ban same-sex marriage, to allow employment and housing discrimination, to prevent LGBT people from adopting children, etc. We should discuss the legal and political aspect of the RCC's condemnation of homosexuality (as I believe I mentioned earlier) - it would be foolish to pretend that they don't oppose legal rights for LGBT people in addition to commenting on the morality of homosexuality, and likewise to pretend that the views of lay Catholics are only a political difference and not a moral one. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 05:00, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
Acceptance of Teachings
Should this page include disagreements among the church heirarchy regarding the church's teachings on homosexuality? AJMW 16:11, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
- Yes. A.Z. 00:22, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Article not good
This article needs serious improvement. A.Z. 00:11, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- Wouldn't it be better if the references were to this cathecism in the Vatican website? One advantage is that people translating the article into other languages would know where to find translations for the quotations. It's very likely that this article will be translated into other languages in the future. I have just translated it into Portuguese. I had linked to the same website in English to which it's linked now, but now I'm going to link to the Portuguese version in the Vatican website. A.Z. 00:21, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't the article provide as much information on the defense of official church teaching as dissent from it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sedziwoj42 (talk • contribs) 12:31, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
Changes regarding dissent
I have included a section which disscusses the extent to which the church teachings are accepted, I think this is an important section to have, it is one of the most challenging topics within the church today. I am concerned that the 'defence' section is too small, yet I have found this a very challenging topic to elaborate on, given that not many within the church make it their main priority to counter the beliefs of those who promote a dissenting viewpoint. Additions are welcomed, however I am not sure that the article should be cut down, I think that would be the wrong thing to do. AJMW 18:24, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
- Great job, AJMW. I don't know how important Frei Betto is, but he defends that homosexuality be accepted by the church. He wrote in 1997 a letter to Pope John Paul II, published in Brazil's biggest newspaper, questioning many of the church's doctrines. He wrote:
"E meus amigos Renato e Lúcio, que vivem juntos e comungam seus afetos, seriam aos olhos do pai de amor uma família?"
What about my friends, Renato e Lúcio, that live together and share affections, would they be to the eyes of the father of love a family?
- I believe that, in Brazil, Leonardo Boff is also in favor of the church considering gay couples a family. Wikipedia's article about him says that he is a controversial figure because he "allegedly supports homosexuality". Again, I don't know how important both of them are, so I don't know how appropriate would it be to include information about them. A.Z. 03:08, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Merge with Homosexuality in the Roman Catholic priesthood
I don't like having one page on Roman Catholicism and another on the priesthood. I think it would better be treated in just one page.Joshuajohanson 03:04, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
- Good call. I fully agree. Otherwise, we’d have to have many other similar pages (and that would be ridiculous): “Homosexuality and senators, Homosexuality and congressman, Homosexuality and school teachers, Homosexuality and Baptist ministers....” —Preceding unsigned comment added by LCP (talk • contribs) 18:42, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
- I disagree, the primary reason that homosexuality in the priesthood has become a matter of such interest is the church sex abuse scandal, and the declarations of Pope Benedict. The articles deal with different issues - one is theological, one is about the logical machinery of an organised church. There should not be a merge in my opinion. AJMW 22:42, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
- Homosexuality and the Roman Catholic Church talks about all aspects, not just theological. There is stuff about the debate in the church, Courage International, and the history of declarations, and yes, even some about the logical machinery of an organized church. I also think the sex scandals and the reaction to them can be better understood within the context of the church in general. And yes, the media did make a big deal about the Homosexuality in the Roman Catholic Priesthood, but I would venture there would be unknown homosexual involvement among the ranks of almost any church. Are we going to do Homosexuality in the New Life Church leadership, and talk about Ted Haggard? Yes, some of the priests messed up and yes, it is important and we should talk about it, but I think having a separate article gives it undue weight. Joshuajohanson (talk) 09:31, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
- If no one else has a rebuttal, I am going to go ahead and move it. Joshuajohanson (talk) 17:30, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
- I object. I agree with the above argument against merging. In any case, the contents of the article on "homosexuality in the Roman Catholic priesthood" were not incorporated into the "homosexuality and Roman Catholicism" article, so I'm reverting the redirect. Eric Kvaalen (talk) 14:39, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
- Homosexuality and the Roman Catholic Church talks about all aspects, not just theological. There is stuff about the debate in the church, Courage International, and the history of declarations, and yes, even some about the logical machinery of an organized church. I also think the sex scandals and the reaction to them can be better understood within the context of the church in general. And yes, the media did make a big deal about the Homosexuality in the Roman Catholic Priesthood, but I would venture there would be unknown homosexual involvement among the ranks of almost any church. Are we going to do Homosexuality in the New Life Church leadership, and talk about Ted Haggard? Yes, some of the priests messed up and yes, it is important and we should talk about it, but I think having a separate article gives it undue weight. Joshuajohanson (talk) 09:31, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
Catholic study on homosexuality/NPOV
I suggest materials from this site be included: http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/zmorhombibl.HTM
It is a Catholic exegete. If this is about Catholicism and Homosexuality, there should be much more material about the views of majority of Catholics led by its orthodox leaders. NPOV means more space and material given to experts. Right now this article is not NPOV. R Davidson (talk) 14:18, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
No longer "objectively disordered"?
This article quotes the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which states in paragraph n.2358 regarding the issue of homosexual tendencies:
"The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity."
I visited the Vatican's official website last Wednesday, and the sentence was still there. However, when I visited it again today, the words "objectively disordered" have mysteriously disappeared. The current version of the paragraph reads as follows:
"The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. They do not choose their homosexual condition; for most of them it is a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity."
Does the Church regularly change the wording of the Catechism or is this done infrequently? Does such a change in wording signal a shift in the Church's position? Maybe it's just insignificant, but I wanted to signal it anyway since it seemed pretty weird to me. BomBom (talk) 16:53, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
That is incredibly strange! If you look in the paragraph above it, the phrase "objectively disordered" is still present... but it is quite unheard of (at least to me) for the Church to do something like this. The phrase "they do not choose their homosexual condition" is also extremely bold and worthy of noting.
If this is really a legitimate Vatican alteration (although the wording seems somewhat sloppy to me, considering the overall flow and eloquence of the text of the Catechism), then praised be God! A step in the right direction... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.18.137.16 (talk) 19:51, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
- Bombom's link above http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P85.HTM#173 is to an older version of the Catechism. The current article cites the current version which states:
2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
- The reason for the changes was that on September 8, 1997, Pope John Paul II formally promulgated the editio typica (the definitive Latin language edition), which included some modifications to the text. Thanar (talk) 17:05, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
Edit war with spotfixer
I don't know what could have been clearer that "That claim was not backed up by the source given and was deleted in accordance with Wikipedia:Citing sources" - Schrandit (talk) 06:56, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
Schrandit, the source states that a public letter published in La Presse and signed by 19 Roman Catholic priests that condemns the churchs position on homosexuality and ordaining homosexual priests. There is no claim, in this article, that they have continued to ordain homosexual priests despite condemning the practice. To find references for that, I simply had to search google for the keywords. References abound. It took 30 seconds.
Your edits are not improving this article by eliminating questionable statements. Rather, it appears that you are deleting statements that you find personally disagreeable. Please make sure to follow WP:EQ guidelines for article improvement and keeping biases in check.--Thesoxlost (talk) 15:55, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
- I couldn't really find anything on this google search that would back up the claim. In the mean time a damaging claim not backed up by the source remains displayed as fact on this article. Why is that? - Schrandit (talk) 01:14, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
- Google harder Spotfixer (talk) 02:03, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
Authority of official teaching
There are several statements in the article currently to the effect that "However, since it is a magisterial dogma of the Church, it is considered definitive and unchangable.[6][7][8][9]" Four sources are cited, yet the claim is unfounded! Although the teaching against homosexuality is of the highest non-infallible authority in the Church, it has not been taught definitively, and so is indeed changeable, although it may never actually change. There is a tendency among some Catholics to try to make the charism of infallibility much broader than it actually is, and this article seems to suffer badly from that tendency. To date, exactly zero moral teachings have been definitively and unchangeably promulgated by the Church. le cizgasnu (talk) 01:47, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
- It is incorrect to state that "zero moral teachings have been definitively and unchangeably promulgated by the Church." The Catechism of the Catholic Church clearly states that the infallibility of the Magisterium extends to moral teachings linked to saving faith:
2035 The supreme degree of participation in the authority of Christ is ensured by the charism of infallibility. This infallibility extends as far as does the deposit of divine Revelation; it also extends to all those elements of doctrine, including morals, without which the saving truths of the faith cannot be preserved, explained, or observed.
2036 The authority of the Magisterium extends also to the specific precepts of the natural law, because their observance, demanded by the Creator, is necessary for salvation. In recalling the prescriptions of the natural law, the Magisterium of the Church exercises an essential part of its prophetic office of proclaiming to men what they truly are and reminding them of what they should be before God.
- There are two ways for the Church to teach something that must be definitively held: (1) by an ex cathedra pronouncement by a Pope, (2) by the Pope declaring explicitly that it belongs to the teaching of the ordinary and universal Magisterium as a truth that is divinely revealed or as a truth of Catholic doctrine:
"The Magisterium of the Church, however, teaches a doctrine to be believed as divinely revealed or to be held definitively with an act which is either defining or non-defining. In the case of a defining act, a truth is solemnly defined by an 'ex cathedra' pronouncement by the Roman Pontiff or by the action of an ecumenical council. In the case of a non-defining act, a doctrine is taught infallibly by the ordinary and universal Magisterium of the Bishops dispersed throughout the world who are in communion with the Successor of Peter. Such a doctrine can be confirmed or reaffirmed by the Roman Pontiff, even without recourse to a solemn definition, by declaring explicitly that it belongs to the teaching of the ordinary and universal Magisterium as a truth that is divinely revealed or as a truth of Catholic doctrine. Consequently, when there has not been a judgment on a doctrine in the solemn form of a definition, but this doctrine, belonging to the inheritance of the depositum fidei, is taught by the ordinary and universal Magisterium, which necessarily includes the Pope, such a doctrine is to be understood as having been set forth infallibly.17 The declaration of confirmation or reaffirmation by the Roman Pontiff in this case is not a new dogmatic definition, but a formal attestation of a truth already possessed and infallibly transmitted by the Church." (Doctrinal Commentary on the Concluding Formula of the Professio Fidei, Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, June 29, 1998, par. 9)
- For example, Pope John Paul II declared explicitly that direct abortion is always gravely morally wrong. This moral teaching is therefore definitive and unchangeable:
Therefore, by the authority which Christ conferred upon Peter and his Successors, in communion with the Bishops-who on various occasions have condemned abortion and who in the aforementioned consultation, albeit dispersed throughout the world, have shown unanimous agreement concerning this doctrine – I declare that direct abortion, that is, abortion willed as an end or as a means, always constitutes a grave moral disorder, since it is the deliberate killing of an innocent human being. This doctrine is based upon the natural law and upon the written Word of God, is transmitted by the Church's Tradition and taught by the ordinary and universal Magisterium. (The Gospel of Life, par. 62)
- Concerning the Church's teaching that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith affirmed "the definitive and unchangeable nature of Catholic doctrine in this area" in its Notification Regarding Sister Jeannine Gramick, SSND, and Father Robert Nugent, SDS.
Confliction in the Article?
First thing saw was that homosexuality was wrong and sinful, and that anal sex was too. Yet heterosexuals practice anal intercourse too. Is this saying that ONLY gays practice anal sex, or it's gay to practice it at all? It also says oral sex is okay under certain conditions. Could somebody please define these? --98.166.100.251 (talk) 06:41, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
A well I see somebody put it at the top of this page, but shouldn't it be in the article? (needs a reference too) --98.166.100.251 (talk) 06:44, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
The Catholic Church totally condemns sexual practises against nature, both heterossexual and homossexual. Remember that the Catholic Church until the Vatican Council II said that sex was only for reproduction.81.193.220.8 (talk) 19:21, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
Italian Bishop calls for banning homosexuals (and other 'irregulars') from sacraments, funerals
According to the article, LGBT people are worse than pagans, therefore should be denied communion and funerals.--DCX (talk) 18:44, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
New book over homosexuality in Roman catholic church
German catholic theologian David Berger wrote a book over homosexuality in roman catholic church. Title of the book in german language ist Heiliger Schein Mircado (talk) 00:53, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
Memorandum 2011: Church 2011
Over 260 catholic theologians, particulary from Germany, Switzerland and Austria signed in January/February 2011 a memorandum Church 2011. They want more theolgian respect for gay couples, who live in civil unions 92.252.93.210 (talk) 20:10, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
- at the end of memorandum over 310 catholic professors signed that memorandum. 188.118.139.189 (talk) 02:17, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
Blessings in Germany for same-sex unions
In German town Mönchengladbach five same-sex unions got a blessing in Roman Catholic Diocese of Aachen.
In German town Wetzlar one same-sex union got a blessing in Roman Catholic Diocese of Limburg.
- Frankfurter Rundschau:Dekan muss gehen wegen Schwulen-Trauung (german) 89.166.224.195 (talk) 22:34, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
Political aspect
A discussion at Talk:Catholic Church led to the suggestion that this article include a section on the RCC's political efforts against same-sex marriage and be listed in Category:Organizations that oppose same-sex marriage. Help writing such a section would be lovely (as it would have a very large scope, making sorting through sources difficult). –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 05:17, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
Inappropriate
If some large block of text is inappropriate for the lead, you MOVE it to some other place, not DELETE it. This proves other intentions, vandalism. --Stijn Calle (talk) 14:55, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
- I have suspicions that you may be using Aduron78 as a sock-puppet? I hope that isn't the case? Contaldo80 (talk) 09:18, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
Bias
First, sorry: I was being snippy when I replaced the first part of:
- Many Catholics oppose the official teachings of the Church on homosexuality, and in some locations, such as the United States, show stronger support for gay rights than the general population.[1]
With the more accurate but useless:
- In some locations, some proportion of Catholics agree with and some proportion disagree with the official teachings of the Church on homosexuality.[citation needed]
The original wording can't work:
- What usatoday.com says becomes irrelevant as soon as the actual study becomes available for citing.
- The study did not ask "do you oppose Church teaching on the matter of...", it asked if the person believed "homosexual behavior" was a sin.
- Both "many Catholics disagree" and "many Catholics agree" are true statements. Choosing either is POV (though the first is much more loaded).
- "The majority of Catholics disagree" needs a {globalize} tag. 25% of the USA is Catholic, 78 million, but there are 1,200 million (1.2 billion) Catholics worldwide.
- "For the Catholic subsample (n=210), the margin of error is +/- 7.0 points at the 95% level of confidence". This means that if the survey was conducted again, there is a 95% chance that 43% support (vs 37%) for gay marriage ("do you favor allowing") will swing up or down by at most 7%. My stats might be a bit rusty, but I'm pretty sure that means there's at least a 95% chance that the difference between 43 and 37 less than 7. I might have to break out the graph paper, though.
- The study says [2] that practising Catholics (middle two column areas) show 32% support against the public's 37%. The stats of those who attend "less often" (59%) are very strongly correlated with the results for people reporting "unaffiliated" (again, 59%). I'm not suggesting we include this, just something to consider.
In other words, we can't frame these results as some sort of greater-than-average-population conflict between the laity and "the Church" on the subject of gay sex ("homosexual behavior"?) and gay marriage. Openverse (talk) 23:34, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
- Responses in no particular order: "Many Catholics agree with the Catholic Church" is inane. Nowhere do we refer to the majority of Catholics using only US numbers. Secondary analysis of primary sources is not useless and is in fact what Wikipedia is based on. We could bypass some of these concerns by using more surveys (eg. [3]) however it's not always easy to find ones that split by religion, esp. from other countries. I've again reverted your rewording and would recommend that if you wish to include the specific numbers, you do so without removing the secondary analysis. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 03:20, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks for taking the time to not revert my other edits. You'll notice that I too was opposed to saying "many Catholics agree". We refer to the majority of Catholics when we say "Many Catholics disagree" and cite that claim (yes, at the end of that entire sentence) using a US study. Interestingly, the newspaper article is considered by us a primary source, not a secondary source. See WP:PRIMARYNEWS. It's a primary source for the claim "a study was released" (that means that if the study was not from a well-established source, we might use this newspaper article to back it up). Also, the survey itself (actually, the report, which you should not have deleted as a citation) is in fact a secondary source, because it is an analysis of the results. You can learn more about this at the relevant policy page. And while newspaper reporters are a fine source for "it happened" or "she said this", they usually don't qualify as an acceptable source for "this means that" (this often comes up as a problem in science reporting), especially when the report is present. The only secondary material that we can extract from that article is a comment by Stephen Schneck that effectively says "you can't really say that because there are two ways of interpreting the data". Openverse (talk) 05:52, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
- Uhhhh, the claim that a newspaper analysis of survey results is primary, but the results themselves are secondary is...interesting. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 04:44, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
- I understand that you feel on the defensive, and I don't like conflict either. But a word of caution: please do take a moment to read what I said (and say) carefully, and also read the policy pages for further guidance. (I've underlined some relevant parts above.) Also, please avoid sarcasm (above) and accusations of trolling (the cn tag is there because the unsourced claim "many Catholics oppose" is not the same as the claim "in the US they show stronger support..."). Comments like that make the other person feel attacked, and only escalate the conflict.
The report (secondary) is an analysis of the raw data (primary). The paper is (please read carefully) a primary source for the news, and an invalid secondary source for analysis. The Schneck fellow provides a (secondary) analysis, made legitimate by its inclusion in the (primary) news source.
Furthermore, he explicitly says that you cannot prefer one interpretation over the other, in opposition to the wording you are trying to introduce. I have tried to accommodate your concerns in prior edits, but I plan to undo your recent revert. This is because you continue to prefer the unsourced and unfounded "many Catholics oppose" wording, and because you are now introducing the speculative "or protection against discrimination". I introduced the parenthetical examples because they were the subject of the study, but I'm guessing you introduced this wording because you take it to be a synonym for the term "gay rights". You might not realize that your edits paint an unfounded picture of conflict within the Church, of typical church-going Catholics being actively opposed to Church teaching and in favor of gay marriage, and of opposition to gay marriage as a matter of discrimination. Openverse (talk) 21:55, 14 January 2013 (UTC)- It's difficult to assume good faith from a user who clearly isn't bothering to read the source. The anti-discrimination bit is in the source you added, the "many" wording about Catholic opposition to the church position is in the USA Today source which has been there for some time, and Schneck's (partisan!) interpretation does not actually contradict anything we've said. If you're not actually trolling, you're just not meeting the basic competence level required; I suggest you come back after reading the material. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 22:59, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
- I understand that you feel on the defensive, and I don't like conflict either. But a word of caution: please do take a moment to read what I said (and say) carefully, and also read the policy pages for further guidance. (I've underlined some relevant parts above.) Also, please avoid sarcasm (above) and accusations of trolling (the cn tag is there because the unsourced claim "many Catholics oppose" is not the same as the claim "in the US they show stronger support..."). Comments like that make the other person feel attacked, and only escalate the conflict.
- Uhhhh, the claim that a newspaper analysis of survey results is primary, but the results themselves are secondary is...interesting. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 04:44, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks for taking the time to not revert my other edits. You'll notice that I too was opposed to saying "many Catholics agree". We refer to the majority of Catholics when we say "Many Catholics disagree" and cite that claim (yes, at the end of that entire sentence) using a US study. Interestingly, the newspaper article is considered by us a primary source, not a secondary source. See WP:PRIMARYNEWS. It's a primary source for the claim "a study was released" (that means that if the study was not from a well-established source, we might use this newspaper article to back it up). Also, the survey itself (actually, the report, which you should not have deleted as a citation) is in fact a secondary source, because it is an analysis of the results. You can learn more about this at the relevant policy page. And while newspaper reporters are a fine source for "it happened" or "she said this", they usually don't qualify as an acceptable source for "this means that" (this often comes up as a problem in science reporting), especially when the report is present. The only secondary material that we can extract from that article is a comment by Stephen Schneck that effectively says "you can't really say that because there are two ways of interpreting the data". Openverse (talk) 05:52, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
- It's unfortunate that we are having this trouble Roscelese. I've been thorough in explaining my objections to your position, but you are not having it. A few key points:
- The USA Today source is a blog. (Even if it was a proper news article, it wouldn't be a good source for analysis.)
- The USA Today source's poorly-written interpretation "many U.S. Catholics out of sync" cannot be changed into "many Catholics oppose".
- We cannot say "many Catholics oppose [disagree with] the official teachings of the Church on homosexuality". That sort of semi-ambiguous wording, even with the best sources, has serious problems (I've commented above).
- If you want to include a claim, cite it. That means you need to look through the history, find the citations that I added (and which you deleted), and place them after your claim, preferably with page numbers. If I don't know where your claims are coming from, there is really no excuse for becoming upset when I take issue with those claims on the talk page, and certainly no excuse for accusing me of trolling and "...not meeting the basic competence level required".
- If you haven't reviewed the policies I linked above recently, perhaps you should have a look. I'm not linking them because you are expected to follow them, but because other editors do follow them. Hopefully we can work something out without needing to use up the time of others. Openverse (talk) 06:43, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
- You've claimed that there's a problem with stating that Catholics disagree with the church when that's what a reliable source says (see NEWSBLOG), but you are incorrect and repeating yourself will not make you right. WP:V is, actually, all about making sure that statements are cited to reliable sources, not about removing reliably sourced statements because we personally disagree with them, so find another policy (or more likely an essay of complaint from a user, since there's not much that will contradict "Wikipedia content is based on reliable sources") to cite. If you have no policy-based arguments to make, I recommend finding something else to edit - for instance, there are many stub articles on species which could use expansion or formatting. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 07:10, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
- Ouch, and that's really too bad. How do you see dispute resolution going? You might want to glance through what we've written to each other above with an impartial eye. Do you want to go with 3O, or some other option? (For the record, I don't think this source (news, blog) or even the survey itself is good enough for the claim "many Catholics oppose [or disagree with] the official teachings of the Church on homosexuality", and that the claim itself is pov.) Openverse (talk) 08:20, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
- You've claimed that there's a problem with stating that Catholics disagree with the church when that's what a reliable source says (see NEWSBLOG), but you are incorrect and repeating yourself will not make you right. WP:V is, actually, all about making sure that statements are cited to reliable sources, not about removing reliably sourced statements because we personally disagree with them, so find another policy (or more likely an essay of complaint from a user, since there's not much that will contradict "Wikipedia content is based on reliable sources") to cite. If you have no policy-based arguments to make, I recommend finding something else to edit - for instance, there are many stub articles on species which could use expansion or formatting. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 07:10, 16 January 2013 (UTC)