→Andrew c 3 reverts (oral or written, ordained Baptist, Jesus Project): what? RfC outcome was clear? I'd like to talk about that. |
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::"Surviving" is a red herring. The present tense takes care of any doubts. There is no evidence for X from the time of X. This doesn't imply X never existed. If I say there are no dinosaurs, I'm saying there are no surviving dinosaurs; the word "surviving" is unnecessary. Leaving it out doesn't imply there have never been dinosaurs. [[User:Noloop|Noloop]] ([[User talk:Noloop|talk]]) 15:47, 18 September 2010 (UTC) |
::"Surviving" is a red herring. The present tense takes care of any doubts. There is no evidence for X from the time of X. This doesn't imply X never existed. If I say there are no dinosaurs, I'm saying there are no surviving dinosaurs; the word "surviving" is unnecessary. Leaving it out doesn't imply there have never been dinosaurs. [[User:Noloop|Noloop]] ([[User talk:Noloop|talk]]) 15:47, 18 September 2010 (UTC) |
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::Additional point: the modifier "from his time" implies that there is evidence for the existence of Jesus (just from a different time). So the current wording implies the existence of evidence, yet it is still being lawyered over. The word-gaming in this topic is just insane. [[User:Noloop|Noloop]] ([[User talk:Noloop|talk]]) 15:50, 18 September 2010 (UTC) |
::Additional point: the modifier "from his time" implies that there is evidence for the existence of Jesus (just from a different time). So the current wording implies the existence of evidence, yet it is still being lawyered over. The word-gaming in this topic is just insane. [[User:Noloop|Noloop]] ([[User talk:Noloop|talk]]) 15:50, 18 September 2010 (UTC) |
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::Please explain what is wrong with the previous wording: "There is no evidence for the existence of Jesus that comes from the time of Jesus". What the source, [[Elaine Pagels]], said: "none of the historical evidence actually goes back as far as Jesus" [[User:Noloop|Noloop]] ([[User talk:Noloop|talk]]) 16:24, 18 September 2010 (UTC) |
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===RfC outcome=== |
===RfC outcome=== |
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*''The RFC is very clear that the attribution is needed.'' |
*''The RFC is very clear that the attribution is needed.'' |
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I just re-read the RfC, made counts, annotations, and tried to get a feel of it, again. On sheer number counting, we have 13 supports, 8 oppose, and 2 others. 57% vs. 35%. I don't see how that is consensus, vs. vote counting. On closer analysis of the comments, and the discussion following the votes, I found commentors or both sides presenting grey areas where "in some cases" or "in some instances" such attributions IS needed. There are only about 5 people that clearly suggest something along the line of "Christians aren't neutral on the existence of Jesus", and that this general bias should be presented on that fact alone. On the other hand, there were only maybe 2 or 3 editors with 'oppose' votes that thought scholars should blanket be "given benefit of doubt", and even then it isn't clear if they would oppose "some cases" of religious affiliation attribution. There were three commentors who really didn't discuss the topic at hand, but after their vote went on about something off topic. That leaves about 12 people, on both sides, that support attribution "in some cases" or "in some instances". It was my view now (and before the current thread) that the only consensus that could read from the RfC is that there was broad support for attribution in some cases, where the attribution is "relevant", "important to our understanding of what they have to say", "[i]If the balance of other reliable secondary sources discussing the author's work make the attribution, then we should too", "[i]f it's an opinion, or a statement of fact that is contradicted by other reliable sources, it needs to be attributed." The funny thing, Noloop said clearly "Christians aren't neutral on the existence of Jesus" and Civilizededucation "I see all sources on matters like religion, as having some bias", but I don't think anywhere close to a majority support the idea of Christian talking about Jesus=bias, and thus needs attribution. The majority of commentors had a higher standard. Do reliable sources discuss the religious background? Is the material disputed? Is the religious background relevant to each example on a case by case basis? In terms of McKnight, I want to know specifically why it is important to add the "Baptist" qualification. Is the claim disputed? Do other sources when discussing his scholarship on this topic make the qualification? How is "Baptist" relevant to his claim on historicity? As Griswaldo said above, I don't see how this particular case is anything but an effort to insinuate bias, which is unfounded in reliable sources. I'd welcome an uninvolved admin to review the RfC and determine "consensus". I think the important point is we all discussed our views, and we are able to find some commmon ground, you know, parts that we can all agree to.-[[User:Andrew c|Andrew c]] [[User talk:Andrew c|<sup>[talk]</sup>]] 15:55, 18 September 2010 (UTC) |
I just re-read the RfC, made counts, annotations, and tried to get a feel of it, again. On sheer number counting, we have 13 supports, 8 oppose, and 2 others. 57% vs. 35%. I don't see how that is consensus, vs. vote counting. On closer analysis of the comments, and the discussion following the votes, I found commentors or both sides presenting grey areas where "in some cases" or "in some instances" such attributions IS needed. There are only about 5 people that clearly suggest something along the line of "Christians aren't neutral on the existence of Jesus", and that this general bias should be presented on that fact alone. On the other hand, there were only maybe 2 or 3 editors with 'oppose' votes that thought scholars should blanket be "given benefit of doubt", and even then it isn't clear if they would oppose "some cases" of religious affiliation attribution. There were three commentors who really didn't discuss the topic at hand, but after their vote went on about something off topic. That leaves about 12 people, on both sides, that support attribution "in some cases" or "in some instances". It was my view now (and before the current thread) that the only consensus that could read from the RfC is that there was broad support for attribution in some cases, where the attribution is "relevant", "important to our understanding of what they have to say", "[i]If the balance of other reliable secondary sources discussing the author's work make the attribution, then we should too", "[i]f it's an opinion, or a statement of fact that is contradicted by other reliable sources, it needs to be attributed." The funny thing, Noloop said clearly "Christians aren't neutral on the existence of Jesus" and Civilizededucation "I see all sources on matters like religion, as having some bias", but I don't think anywhere close to a majority support the idea of Christian talking about Jesus=bias, and thus needs attribution. The majority of commentors had a higher standard. Do reliable sources discuss the religious background? Is the material disputed? Is the religious background relevant to each example on a case by case basis? In terms of McKnight, I want to know specifically why it is important to add the "Baptist" qualification. Is the claim disputed? Do other sources when discussing his scholarship on this topic make the qualification? How is "Baptist" relevant to his claim on historicity? As Griswaldo said above, I don't see how this particular case is anything but an effort to insinuate bias, which is unfounded in reliable sources. I'd welcome an uninvolved admin to review the RfC and determine "consensus". I think the important point is we all discussed our views, and we are able to find some commmon ground, you know, parts that we can all agree to.-[[User:Andrew c|Andrew c]] [[User talk:Andrew c|<sup>[talk]</sup>]] 15:55, 18 September 2010 (UTC) |
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:Somebody shoot me, please. [[User:Noloop|Noloop]] ([[User talk:Noloop|talk]]) 16:24, 18 September 2010 (UTC) |
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==Define Topic== |
==Define Topic== |
Revision as of 16:24, 18 September 2010
Christianity: Jesus B‑class High‑importance | |||||||||||||
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Talk:Jesus and textual evidence |
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Full Protection
This is the second time I've had to fully protect this page from editing per the edit warring and content dispute. As the protecting administrator, if it's not too much trouble, I'd like a statement below from each of the involved parties explaining their side of the story. This dispute needs to be resolved - I can't just go on and keep reprotecting the page each time the previous protection period ends. -FASTILY (TALK) 22:41, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
- When I express my concerns, I am called an ignorant bigot. My position is mischaracterized for the purpose of dismissing a strawman argument. See [1] and [2]. See also the recent ANI regarding the conduct of Andrew-c and Slrubenstein [3]. Noloop (talk) 23:09, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks for the prompt reply. Although, I would like to hear from several other parties first before taking any further action. -FASTILY (TALK) 23:33, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what Noloop's comments have to do with page protection, but I have been very careful to be civil and not advance anything that anyone could construe as a personal attack for over a week (since the ANI thread that Noloop brought regarding me, where I acknowledged what I had said, and apologized, and which resulted in no sanctions on my part). I'll explain what happened since the page was unprotected.
I added a sentence which I had proposed a few sections up. Noloop and Civilizededucation then made these edits, (and with a small exception) completely unrelated to my first edit. I reverted those string of edits, because I thought they were POV, and went against what a lot of us had been discussing here. In brief: 1) There is no consensus to qualify certain sources as only representing "Christian theologians". 2) Ehrman does not say "probably". 3) Who is arguing that Jesus isn't mentioned twice in Josephus? 4) Brackets were changed to parentheses in a quote, against MOS:QUOTE. 5) Few vs. some WEIGHT issue. 6) Identifies vs. perceive WP:SAY issue.
After my revert, I then went through and made a few neutral edits, and another edit related to prior talk page discussion regarding McKnight. While I was going through the article, Noloop not only restored the material which I removed, but also reverted my new and neutral edits, which IMO have nothing to do with this dispute. Restoring previously reverted material is against BRD, and IMO how edit wars start. I had no intention of editing the page further, and told Noloop I though the revert was a sign of bad faith, and that the edit summary was a personal attack. Noloop replied by bringing up something that I apologized for over a week ago (showing to me that we haven't moved forward at all, despite my efforts and good faith). Griswaldo and Civilizededucation continued the edit war, each reverting once, before the page was protected, on Noloop's request. So the question now, how to move forward? Maybe we could all do self imposed 1RR? What changes do we feel need to be made, and what require further discussion?-Andrew c [talk] 01:21, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what Noloop's comments have to do with page protection, but I have been very careful to be civil and not advance anything that anyone could construe as a personal attack for over a week (since the ANI thread that Noloop brought regarding me, where I acknowledged what I had said, and apologized, and which resulted in no sanctions on my part). I'll explain what happened since the page was unprotected.
- Thanks for the prompt reply. Although, I would like to hear from several other parties first before taking any further action. -FASTILY (TALK) 23:33, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
I haven't been involved on this page very much, but I've noticed Noloop over at Christ myth theory. In my opinion, he's been trying to impose a ridiculous standard of sourcing upon this article and other articles about early Christianity—basically, if there is any possibility that a source used on this article was written by a Christian, he believes that the source is biased, and declares that it needs to be balanced by sources from "secular, peer-reviewed presses." The sources that Noloop objects to, however, are academics who specialize in the field, and who are considered leading authorities on the historical Jesus—John P. Meier is one example. Sources like this are the expert sources that this article should use; they are scholars, who publish through normal academic channels like peer-reviewed journals, academic presses, etc. They sometimes publish books for a wider, non-scholarly audience, and these are also good sources for a Wikipedia article, since they are written by people whose expertise in the field has already been demonstrated.
Some of Noloop's statements seem to contain a certain bias that is guiding his evaluation of the sources. For instance, above, he says "Atheism, the belief system, is not biased. Atheism doesn't assume as a matter of faith--regardless of fact and logic--anything about the existence of historical anything. Christianity does. Thus, Christians can be assumed to lack neutrality on the existence of Jesus. Atheists cannot be assumed to do so." I guess I'm not supposed to call this bigoted, so I'll just point out that this statement claims that atheists are able to think rationally about Jesus' existence, but Christians' position on Jesus' historicity comes from faith, not reason. This opinion apparently allows Noloop to reject the scholarly consensus that there was a historical Jesus, because only "theologians" say that, and make edits such as this, this, and this. The edit summary on the last is inexcusable. I think a good solution to this issue would be to topic-ban Noloop from all Christianity-related articles, for at least a short period. --Akhilleus (talk) 00:18, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
- There's a disagreement on sourcing. Some want more non-Christians or non-Theologians or whatever as sources, and some feel the article accurately weights the various experts as it stands. People feel strongly both ways, and I'm not sure there is a good way forward. Most of the headway I've seen made in either direction is through blocking, which isn't ideal. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 00:22, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
- Hm, Akhilleus's summary of what I think is pretty typical of what a certain group of editors here think. It is not, however, how I describe my own position. There is also a request for arbitration that is about to be declined (mostly by way of asking me to file an RFCU first). [4]. Note also that it is wrong to represent the concern about Christian sourcing as mine alone, and that two attempts to topic-ban me have already been shot down in ANIs. Noloop (talk) 00:31, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
- "People feel strongly both ways"? Huh? This has never been an issue between two polarized crowds of people who feel strongly about their positions. Painting that particular picture is akin to teaching the controversy. There is no legitimate controversy here. This is simply quackery vs. scholarship. Since religious affiliation is apparently the end all be all determinant of bias I have a solution. Why don't we ask anyone who is either a Christian theist or an atheist to take a week long break from the article while all the agnostics and Buddhists sort it out? Sound fair?Griswaldo (talk) 02:58, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
- I became involved in the Historical Jesus quite recently, where I guess my concern was the reliance on one type of source, and the exclusion of any other. Obviously the bulk of sources will be Christian academics, because most people who have no belief will not waste their time working on something that is of little interest to them, and ultimately limited in terms of verification or falsification. So, if non-believers who are notable academics have spoken about this issue (from outside a discipline which has a certain faith as the baseline), then we need to include something about that. This straw-man about certain editors trying to exclude relevant scholars has to stop - that is not the argument, but a recognition of where they are coming from, and this misrepresentation has simply inflamed the situation. The opposite is the case, it is those who are accusing others of seeking to exclude sources who are the ones actually being excluding. - MishMich - Talk - 08:08, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
- And my own position? Anglican who refuses to attend church because of the bigotry of some parts of the communion towards other parts. My faith is based on Jesus, but understood through Eckhart's mystical theology and Mahayana Buddhism, rather than dogmatic Christianity. - MishMich - Talk - 08:27, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
- There is a consensus among scholars that Jesus existed. That consensus exists, though both whether he existed or didn't exist is beyond the normal modern legal criteria of proof. The case for the former consists of a reasonable inference, which in turn is based on a methodological argument. The methods and evidence to argue for Jesus as an historical figure must not be more severe than they are for any other historical figure in antiquity, most of whom are known through late reports postdating their assumed existence. The case for the sceptical position is, in itself, 'religious' in the sense that there can be no proof Jesus did not exist, only inferences based on criteria for the acceptability of evidence that are far more stringent than those applied to other figures for the period. Some theological positions within Christianity dispense with the concept of an historical Jesus, which, it is argued, is not necessary in order to be a Christian, any more than being a devout Jew means necessarily that one must believe in the historicity of Abraham or Moses.
- Given this, all Noloop can do is, in support of his thesis, add to the page a scholarly source or two by reputable and reliable scholars that remark on what supporters of the non-historicity of Jesus regard as the 'systemic bias' of mainstream scholarship, which has been indeed dominated by learned Christians. Other than doing this, he cannot hold the page hostage to a personal belief that scepticism on the issue is a qualification to be added to WP:RS, in order to winnow out 'partisan historiography'. Wikipedia editors are not competent to rule on what sources are or are not germane to an article based on their personal sectarian, faith- or disbelief-based presuppositions. If a source fits the most stringent qualifications for WP:RS, i.e., it is written by an academic specialist and published by a quality publisher, with peer-review, it is usable, whether written by a Christian, an atheist, or Balaam's ass. I say this from the personal position that Jesus as the Gospels recount his life almost certainly did not exist, and that it is not an unreasonable position to argue that he did not exist. It is simply a minority view, one that makes as many assumptions as the mainstream scholarship affirming his historicity. That personal conviction cannot sway my interpretation of WP:RS, however.Nishidani (talk) 09:43, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
- Iagree with the sentiment that if those who are claiming biased sources would provide some claims from reputable peer reviewed journal written by respected experts in the field that there are in fact neutrality issues with identifying the historical Jesus then OK, that Christian scholars (I see we are still ignoring Muslims) are unreliable fine but lets actually see the evidence. So far they have not provide such sources they have effectively just told us they believe this to be the case (because the sources are christens (they must be the believe in Jesus) so they must be bias). I would also point out that the bad attitude has not all been one way. Also the claim that atheism is not a belief system but one founded on science is false. Most Atheists admit you can neither prove nor disprove the existence of god (and much of the CMT seems to use much the same argument, there is no real evidence either way, so we assume he was not real). As such if an atheist says Christ doe not exists he is not basing that on empirical data but on assumptions and his own disbelieve in divinity. Slatersteven (talk) 13:52, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
I have been asking Noloop to propose a new source for some time and she cannot - clearly, she is entirely ignorant about the scholarship on the subject. In the meantime, I would like to clear up another misconception - it really seems like a number of people who are ignorant of the scholarship think their views here will be helpful, which is hardly the case (can you imagine someone who has never read any physics trying to address content issues at the physics article? Now, I agree that for obvious reasons many Christians will study the Bible. Many of them may start out with the belief that each of the Gospels had one author; that there are no inconsistencies among the four Gospels, and that they are reliable historical accounts. This is a very particular point of view and while I think we should include it in the article, it should be clearly identified. But there are other views, and many peopl here seem utterly oblivious to them.
let's look at MishMich's comment, "Obviously the bulk of sources will be Christian academics, because most people who have no belief will not waste their time working on something that is of little interest to them, and ultimately limited in terms of verification or falsification." I am sorry, but this is a ridiculous comment. Obviously people who are not interested in something will not likely work on it. But the idea that only people who "believe" in the text will be interested in the text is just ... bizarre. I know scholars who spend years writing articles or a book on Mme Bovary. Do you think such people "believe" in Mme Bovary? Ther are scholars who spend month after month translating and writing commentary on Homeric myths. Do you think they "believe" in Aphrodite, for example? What about the scholars who figured out the meaning of Mayan glyphs. Do you think they "believe" in Hunahpu and Xbalanque? Historians work on all sorts of things they find interesting without "believing" in them. This whole point about believing/no-believing strikes me as a simple but obvious mistake, to think that people with PhDs who teach in universities are necessarily interested in the same things that non-scholars are interested. Sometimes they are, but often they are not. As long as you have Christian missionaries and parroquial schools, you will have adult men and women who still argue over whether God exists or whether Jesus was God. That does not mean that these arguments are what drive professors of religion, or professors of the Bible.
Here is how historians think: a text exists. Someone wrote it, and someone read it. The further back we go in time, the less certain we can be about who the author or audience was. Alas, the further back in time one goes, the more ambiguous the archeological record and the fewer texts one usually has. And yet these artifacts say something about the times in which they were made and used. How one figures this out - well, this is one question academics find interesting and important and debate. Let's say you find a settlement in which there are several small separate structures, each of which have evidence of a hearth (preserved charchoal) and a small number of jars and drinking vessels, and there is one much bigger structure with many jars and drinking vessels. Was the big structure the ome of a wealthy man? Or a communal space?
Historians take the same approach to documents. We actually have very few texts from first century Roman occupied and controlled Palestine. The Mishnah is a Jewish text that was edited at the end of the second century. It was edited with a fairly strong hand, and most of it consists of laws and statements attributed to men who were supposed to have lived in the second century. But it also refers to the "houses" of scholars from the first century CE and the from earlier centuries. Do they literally mean houses, or do they mean "house" in the sense of school? This is realy important, because a law attributed to the House of hillel could come from the first century BCE if we mean house literally, and from the first century CE if we mean house metaphorically. This is a book of laws, but these laws were formulated by the Pharisees, and we know that the Pharisees did not always have political power in the Hasmonean Kingdom, and were one of several well-known sects after the Hasmoneans - so, did anyone actually obey these laws? Whether they were obeyed or not, what can we infer from them about life in the 1st century? Do you really think you need to "believe" that God revelaed all these laws at Mt. Sinai, to want to try to use them to reconstruct the world of 1st century Jews in Palestine?
And we have Josephus, who wrote very detailed work but who sided with the Romans after a bitter war - was he trying to make the Jews look more understandable and civilized to Romans, or trying to ingratiate himself personally with the Romans by telling them what they wanted to hear?
So we have all of these sources that claim to be talking about 1st century Roman-occupied or controlled Palestine. Given the problems with the mishnah and Josephus, you better believe historians are very interested in Matthew and Luke and Mark. We have the synoptic Gospels. There are other Gospels, but most of them are believed to have been written later. There are papyri with fragments of the Gospels that date to the second century. Does this mean that Matthew was written in the second century? That there is a book called "Matthew" means that at some point in time someone produced a book called Matthew. Maybe this happened later than the second century. But was the Book of Matthew actually written by one person, or did one person edit together things written by different people? If parts were written by different people, might they have been written at different times? Based on what we do know of the very radical changes in the organization of political and religious life in Palestine from Pompey's occupation until the destruction of the Temple, from then until the Bar Kozeba rebellion, the disappearance of the Essenes and the Saducees and the rise of the Pharisees and Christians to form new religions, can we take different elemnts of the Gospels and attribute them to authors living at different times? Can we look at a verse or passage and tell from either style or content that it was more likely composed in the second century, or in the first? If we can rearrange passages basedon when we think they were written, do they provide us with a different view of Christianity? A different view of Jesus? These are the kinds of questions historians ask and they way they go about looking for answers.
You do not have to "believe" anything. All you have to do is be interested in the history of 1st century Palestine. if you are you have a very limited number of texts that claim to be from or about that period and place. Then you examine the documents clearly and try to sort out as best possible which segments were likely to have been composed at a particular time. And then, what doe they tell us about the time when they were composed? Slrubenstein | Talk 15:09, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
- ""Obviously the bulk of sources will be Christian academics, because most people who have no belief will not waste their time working on something that is of little interest to them, and ultimately limited in terms of verification or falsification." I am sorry, but this is a ridiculous comment. Obviously people who are not interested in something will not likely work on it. But the idea that only people who "believe" in the text will be interested in the text is just ... bizarre. I know scholars who spend years writing articles or a book on Mme Bovary. Do you think such people "believe" in Mme Bovary?"
- Great - so where is your evidence? Wheel out all these scholars of the historical Jesus who do not believe in him, if that is the case. Rather than spouting tedious paragraphs and rhetorical and offensive commentary on what other people say, you could avoid all this discussion by simply putting your money where your mouth is. But you won't, because you can't, and as usual avoid the issue and deflect discussion to something else. Sure people do not have to believe in Jesus to be scholars about the history - but it appears that the vast majority do. Or have I misunderstood something? - MishMich - Talk - 15:58, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
- Boy do you miss my point. My point is that real historians are not interested in "verification or falisfication." And my point is that people have plenty of other reasons for studying these texts than the fact that they are Christian. But okay, you are not capable of understanding how people in universities work. Okay, I will answer your question.
- Believe that Jesus in the Christian sense? Okay. Shaye JD Cohen. Geza Vermes. Paula Fredrickson. The problem is, most good historians will say that it is likely Jesus existed. The big problem here is that most non-historians understand historians as well as most non-scientists understand science. Most scientists will never say something is "proven." in the sense that most people mean by proof - and creationists jump all over this to say that this means Darwin was wrong. Most historians will say that the further you go back in time the harder it is to say with absolute certainty that anyone existed. But virtually all historians who focus on 1st century Jewish history think it is likely that Jesus existed. Now, do you think Pilate existed? Do you think Gamaliel existed? Caiphus? Slrubenstein | Talk 17:10, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
- What comes forst the beleife or the research? you have to demonstrate that such a confliuct exsists, not mearly assert it. you might be right, or it might be that the evidance just works to re-enforce a scholers beleife. We do not know.Slatersteven (talk) 16:08, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
- Just curious, Mish. When you say "believe in Jesus", do you mean "are of the Christian faith" or are you referring to the possibility of say the JM crowd's argument? "believe in Jesus as savior deity" or "believe in a historical figure named Jesus"... -Andrew c [talk] 16:12, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
- If something is a fact, it is widely believe by non-Christians. It is trivial to find matter-of-fact references to the existence of Julius Caesar in peer-reviewed, secular academia. Why isn't it the same for the existence of Jesus? And why do we try to conceal that difference from the reader? Noloop (talk) 16:28, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
- Bull. I read peer-reviewed, secular academic journals every day and have yet to find a reference to Julius Caeser. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:15, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
- Noloop can you name a single reference work published by a reliable press and dealing with the history of Christianity that does not include "matter-of-fact references to the existence of Jesus"? That would include anything from an encyclopedia to an introductory religion or history text. Also, can you name a single non-religious historian who has published anything in a peer reviewed journal that includes a "matter-of-fact reference to the existence of Julius Caesar?" I think you have absolutely no clue about what your asking. When you produce some of this evidence we can discuss your nonsensical demands.Griswaldo (talk) 17:19, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
- Noloop, what you appear to be asking us to do is to review the historical Jesus literature, and instead of checking to see if the scholars are notable, if the presses are scholarly, if the work has been accepted into the academic debate, you are asking me to do a statistical analysis of their personal religious backgrounds. How is that not a religious litmus test? I'm tired of these games. Weeks ago, people held up Ehrman (the agnostic), Grant (the atheist), Vermes (the Jew), among others, as examples of top scholars in their field who are not Christian, and who accept a historical Jesus, yet you continue, on and on, not moving one step forward, not acknowledging any of this (except to say that Ehrman is not a good enough agnostic for you). Yet, you don't provide any counter examples of non-Christians believing anything else. If something is a fact, it is widely believe by non-Christians.' What then? In light of ALL our sources coming from many different types of scholars (including non-Christians, not that I acknowledge that that should even matter) who ALL claim the majority of biblical scholars and historians accept the existence of Jesus, please tell us what then is the widely held belief? -Andrew c [talk] 20:00, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
- Muslims bleive in Jesus, they are non-christian so its a fact.Slatersteven (talk) 16:31, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
Given that we are going nowhere thru the same spot in time and space repeatedly perhaps the only way to have (what seems a needed) a calling of period is an enforced break on all edds on this page. Perhaps extending the protection th the talk page.Slatersteven (talk) 17:59, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
I'm not involved in this article, though I've been involved in a similar dispute at Christ myth theory about the quality of sourcing. In order to resolve the issue of which sources to use, I'd like to suggest that editors who want to see more non-religious sources (whether Christian or otherwise) produce those sources; and that the other editors not try to exclude them if they're compliant with this section of the sourcing policy, Wikipedia:Verifiability. Sources do not have to be academic specialists to be deemed reliable within the terms of the sourcing policy, so if that's one of the issues that's causing the problem, it's easily resolved by sticking to the policy. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 04:07, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
- "Sources do not have to be academic specialists to be deemed reliable within the terms of the sourcing policy" -- would you care to expound upon what you mean by this? Perhaps an example or two would also help narrow down the variety of ways I can imagine reading that statement.Griswaldo (talk) 05:31, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
- I mean that the policy allows a wide range of sources, and if one of the issues here is that the range is too narrow, it might be resolved by adhering to the policy and opening things up a little, within reason. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 06:48, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
- For me, Bertrand Russell is the litmus test. This is where I got involved on the Historical Jesus article. He would be a relevant and notable non-specialist, in my book. The haughty appeals to superiority in this discussion go against the grain of the encyclopedia. I am an expert in LGBT studies - but we do not prevent people who are completely ignorant on these issues commenting on that project articles; we have lots of Christians, for example, quite eager to insert their lack of understanding of human sexuality and gender into articles covered by that project. This is the way of this encyclopedia, we do not restrict contributions to experts only; although we value the access to experts for comment and contributions. So, dismissing what people say in an off-hand way, as un-knowledgeable, and so on - this is all very poor behaviour. If we were all such experts, most would not be wasting time here, but getting papers published. - MishMich - Talk - 07:31, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
- For me, Bertrand Russell fails the litmus test. As far as I know he did not speak Aramaic and had no expertise in 1st century Jewish history. He was a philosopher, not a historian. I think we need to distinguish between two issues here. There is a theological question about the status of Christianity and claims about miracles and claims about the dividnity of Jesus. As a philosophe, I have no problem using Russell as an important source. But there is another issue, the historical question of the value of the New testament as a historical source, which is tied to debates about the authorship and time of composition of the New testament and segments of the NT. I think we need to treat these theological and historical issues separately. Someone can be significant regarding one issue, but not another. Slrubenstein | Talk 12:05, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
- @Slimvirgin. Slrubenstein is correct to frame this in terms of "significance". WP:RS is simply a minimum standard for the types of sources that may be used across the encyclopedia and all of its contexts, and as such it does not actually guide what sources or what content are appropriate for specific entries. This is why I asked for (but did not receive) more specificity from you. We have other policies, like this section of our policy on WP:NPOV, for instance, to help us figure out what content to include and what sources to use. I fail to see how your statement, as it stands, is helpful to the discussion. There are many opinions given by a large number of notable people, but we do not include them in our entries unless they are significant and relevant views.Griswaldo (talk) 12:23, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
- @MishMich. You have invoked two types of expertise here -- the expertise of sources and the expertise of editors. It is not always clear in your comment which you are referring to at what times. You write that we have lots of Christians, for example, quite eager to insert their lack of understanding of human sexuality and gender into articles covered by that project. There are POV pushers out there pushing a POV without expertise, and so what? Glancing quickly at Homosexuality, for instance, makes it is clear that such non-expert POVs are not accepted in that area of the encyclopedia either. I don't see the opinions of notable non-experts who are critical of homosexuality because of their religious POV, for instance, used as sources in the entry. That fact is of course something positive. Yet this is what including Bertrand Russel in the current entry would be, almost to a T. A notable philosopher, who was an atheist, and who expressed opinions about the historicity of Jesus specifically without the expertise to do so. What policy suggests that this content should be included, or that this source should be included? None. Non-expert editors are not being bullied here. Non-expert sources simply do not belong unless they are relevant, and no such relevance has ever been shown to exist.Griswaldo (talk) 12:23, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
- I think the articles' main problem is with NPOV. Will be posting a fuller response covering Fastily's concerns later.(please excuse for the delay.)--Civilizededucationtalk 13:19, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
- The articel refelcts the sources.Slatersteven (talk) 14:49, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
- I think the articles' main problem is with NPOV. Will be posting a fuller response covering Fastily's concerns later.(please excuse for the delay.)--Civilizededucationtalk 13:19, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
- @SlimVirgin. The article implies that secular academic support for the historicity of Jesus is widespread. The problem is that such claims are sourced primarily to the Christian community (including scholars) and authors of popular books. So, the article either needs to present a different picture, or editors need to find secular, peer-reviewed and widespread support. I've looked for evidence that the secular, peer-reviewed community believes that Jesus existed, to the same degree it believes the Holocaust and moon-landings existed, and not found it. I don't think such sourcing exists. So, the designation of skeptics as fringe theorists strikes me as absurd. Richard Dawkins and Bertrand Russell don't advocate fringe theories. Noloop (talk) 16:06, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
- Bertrand Russell doesn't advocate anything. He died in 1970. If Richard Dawkins advocates the Christ Myth Theory then by definition he advocates a fringe theory. When we judge the reliability of sources, and when we determine what weight something should be given we do not take into account religious affiliation. We take into account the reliability of publishers and journals. If there are popular works of non-fiction in the entry then they should be replaced with scholarship, but when you refer to the "secular, peer-reviewed community" you are referring to a phantom of your own creation, because you are unwilling to accept the lack of religious affiliation of a publisher, which is what actually makes a source secular, as opposed to the religious affiliation of the scholar. FYI, 99% of Christ myth theorizing does not come from "peer-reviewed" journals of any kind ... secular or otherwise ... so I have a very hard time understanding what you are getting at there. The secular academic community treats Jesus as historical, and this is clearly reflected in tertiary sources. You have conveniently ignored all of my comments about this and have yet to produce a single tertiary reference source that does not treat Jesus as historical. This is why people want you topic banned ... because you never produce any sources of your own when you are asked for them, instead spinning your broken record over and over again in whatever venue you can.Griswaldo (talk) 16:22, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
- Slrubenstein has talked on this page and elsewhere about people not understanding how universities work, and I'd argue further that to exclude Russell as a source is to fail to understand how a British man of his time and class was educated. It is certainly significant, in terms of social history, that he felt it probable Jesus didn't exist and was willing to come right out and say it, though to the best of my knowledge that was all he said about it, so it doesn't make much sense to try to exclude such a brief reference. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 05:28, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
- This is a fair point. My basic issue all along has been how we should not judge someone's POV simply based on their degree or position. I often find that more context can solve problems, and in this and related articles I thin this will often be the case. I am willing to grant that in some cases it may be appropriate to identify someone as a Christian - but in every case i have seen, it is clear to me that just to say this is misleading, because many people think that all Christians are fundamentalists, and this is not true. In some cases we need to add more context and explain what kind of Christian a person is. In some cases, we need to explain why a Doctorate in Theology does not mean that the person is a theologian (just as a Doctorate in Philosophy does not make one a philosopher - you can sum up all of my arguments about bigotry with this analogy: you cannot identify someone as a philosopher just because they have a PhD) ... in these cases, more context helps.
- My objection to using Russell is really to lumping him together with historians, as if he were a historian engaged in a debate about history. This is not the correct context for Russell, and it degrades the quality of the encyclopedia.
- But if there is another context in which Russell's views belong and matter, well, fine.
- Slim Virgin has argued that the pressing issue is, who are the reliable sources? My point is that terms that WP policies routinely use - reliable, significant - are in practice often relative to a particular context, and this means that in order to identify the reliable sources one has to identify the different contexts. Sometimes there is just one context - one big world in which many voices are engaged in one big ranging conversation. But sometimes if you look at the sources it is evident that they divide into different groups of people talking among themselves but not really to people in the other groups. The groups may differ based on the questions or concerns driving them, or their social position, or something else. I do not think one can say who is a reliable ssource or what is a significant view without knowing these different contexts. And I think explicating these different contexts in the article helps make it much clearer and more informative.
- Anyway, if we have a section identifying the context in which Russell's voice was significant, and bring into that section the other voices that belong there, well, then I am all for including Russell. I spoke too broadly earlier. Russell certainly does not pass the litmus test for historian (and gentlemen scholars of Russell's agem, or earlier ages, for the most part still do not belong in the same circle as professional academic historians today. It is called "progress.") but if we put him in his proper place, well, that is another matter. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:44, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
- (deindenting)Please excuse for the delay in posting a response to the protection of this article after my edits. I was preoccupied with some real life situation which prevented me from focusing on this issue properly. Anyway, my view on the article is that its main problem is with NPOV. NPOV uncompromisingly demands that all articles be written from a neutral point of view. This article is sourced predominantly from Christian sources which make it biased. It has further been edited with a pro Christian bias so much so that it has become a highly biased article on “AFFIRMING JESUS HISTORICITY”. Even the material from the sources is selectively used in a way which helps in “AFFIRMING JESUS HISTORICITY”, and material (even from these sources) which goes against “AFFIRMING JESUS HISTORICITY” is glossed over or misrepresented. This will become clear further down this post. Moreover, the language of this article conveys that it is presenting an all round view, when in fact, it doesn’t. This makes the article deceptive, dishonest and misleading. My objective is to help correct this bias, sophistry and make this article neutral per NPOV. My edits were a step in this direction.
- I had made four major edits [5], [6], [7], [8] + the bracket thing [9], and some commas, etc.
- Andrew c has reverted all my, Noloop’s and also Cyclopia’s edit [10]. He has mischaracterized my and Noloop’s edits as “disruptive”, “POV pushing” and “favorable to myth camp”. It is uncivil to misrepresent good faith edits in this way. Andrew c should apologize for mischaracterizing good faith edits as “disruptive”, etc. otherwise I may take to characterizing his edits as “Jesus True” camp (whenever such a description is actually justified). A proper description for my edits would be “NPOV camp” because my concern is with NPOV.
- I had reverted because, except for mischaracterizing them, he and Griswaldo did not show any meaningful or specific objection with my edits. Only now, in his 2) to 5),[11] Andrew c has shown some meaningful, substantial objections to my edits. I think he should have done it on the talk page at the time of his revert. That way, I would have had a chance to evaluate my edits, and his objections before I decided on a revert. Anyway, it is a good thing that I now have some specific, meaningful objections so that we can discuss them and try to continue to improve the article
- about the brackets issue, I can now see their meaning and agree that square brackets are needed, but I still think that there is too much space there. Anyway, I think it is rather too childish to require the efforts of an admin to mediate over this.
- regarding Andrew c’s 2) if you read Ehrman from the last line of page 82, it reads
It is clear that he accepts the possibility that gospel writers may have made up stories themselves and goes on to explain that the premise that the gospels are based on earlier sources (Q), is based on the assumption that the gospel writers did not cook up stories themselves, which is also certainly possible, but unlikely.It is generally assumed that the Gospel writers didn’t make up these stories whole-cloth (they certainly may have; but given the use of other sources for their accounts, it seems somewhat unlikely.) If not, then they must have gotten them from someplace—either written documents that no longer survive or oral traditions that they had heard.
- This is why I inserted "probably" and made the sentence read
.The four canonical gospels were probably based on earlier, no longer extant sources. .
- Thinking over it again, I too now think that Ehrman does not say “probably”. I think we should write the sentence something like this
Based on the assumption that the gospel writers did not invent stories, (which is certainly possible, but somewhat unlikely), the four canonical Gospels are based on earlier, no longer extant sources. .
- Please see for yourself what Ehrman says, (last line of page 82, and the next line.) [12]
- Regarding 3) on Josephus references, the article itself says, Concerns have been raised about the authenticity of the passage, and it is widely held by scholars that at least part of the passage has been altered by a later scribe. The Testimonium's authenticity has attracted much scholarly discussion and controversy of interpolation. Louis H. Feldman counts 87 articles published during the period of 1937–1980, "the overwhelming majority of which question its authenticity in whole or in part.
- Regarding 5) “few” appears to trivialize the scholars who doubt Jesus historicity. This is why I replaced it with “some”. “Few” was being used in a weasel worded way. It appears to insinuate that the persons and their views which doubt Jesus historicity are unimportant and best neglected.
- Regarding Andrew c's "no consensus" and "BRD", I don't believe I must stop editing because on "no consensus". Looks like it is going to take forever to achieve. BRD is a suggestion, not something that could apply and I don't think I have done anything wrong, even if it could.--Civilizededucationtalk 05:31, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
- 4) regarding brackets, glad we can agree on something! 2) Based on the assumption that the gospel writers did not invent stories, (which is certainly possible, but somewhat unlikely), may only work for the M and L material (which is what Ehrman was discussing) the evidence for Q is the verbatim word concurance between Mt. and Lk. Evidence for a Signs Gospel include the odd numbering (and skipping numbers) in Jn. of the miracle stories, among other evidence. Saying the only evidence for these sources is an assumption is very, very wrong. Again, the quote you take from Ehrman only relates to the special M and L material, not Q, not any of the John sources, etc. 3) I'm not disputing that people question the authenticity of the TF, and that most scholars agree that there has been some Christian meddling. My point is, our manuscripts of Josephus have two separate possible references to Jesus that scholars analyze. Adding a parenthetical comment (argueably) sic is problematic, not only because of the spelling, but because parenthetical comments aren't really encyclopedic in tone or format, +WP:OPED, and simply because Jesus is mentioned twice (even if the material isn't arguably original). 5) Goes down to the crux of the main debate taking up the majority of this talk page. It was why I said the edits were "favorable to myth camp". I could be wrong, but you could be wrong. I restored the article to what it said. I'd be glad to NOT edit anything related to the JM stuff, if you and Noloop agree likewise, so we can continue working on other, less controversial aspects of the article, and agree not to edit the JM stuff until we reach a talk page consensus regarding how to phrase the material. Some people, citing tons of sources, believe the JM view is either a very small minority, or even a "fringe" position, and that we must present that weight, following our sources. Others argue our sources are poor, or that the JM is more prevalent, without really citing anything (and of course I am giving a biased summary of the debate, which I've been trying to lay low on anyway due to becoming jaded on the matter). While there is talk page discussion concerning this stuff, I dont' think there was consensus to change "few" to "some", I feel it skews the weight in favor of the JM, and that I don't find any of the connotations you see in "few". I don't think it says it is unimportant and best neglected, even if Wells himself has basically said those words, "dismiss with amused contempt the suggestion that Jesus never existed" and "the view that there was no historical Jesus... is today almost totally rejected." (among many other cited sources all saying similar conclusions....) But again, I understand that this has been under dispute, and I would urge you guys to stop trying to "fix" the POV before there is talk page agreement, and then perhaps other users would stop reverting, and you guys wouldn't have to revert back, and then get the page protected over and over. Or at least, let's discuss specifically what in this article is POV, and see if we can't reach a neutral phrasing compromise to start from. Again, I vow to not edit in any way regarding the JM stuff in this article, if it is unprotected, unless I have prior talk page consensus. If we can get all parties to likewise at least agree to that, then we can move forward with page unprotection, and continue discussing our issues (and I'd prefer if they started to focus on our actual content and phrasings, not generalities about what scholars are Christian, and what journals they publish in, and so on). PS I just realizes, because your spacing is weird, I missed the first half of your comment, but because I've already typed so much already, I hope you can excuse my silence on those aspects for now.-Andrew c [talk] 15:07, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
- I said I'd not type more, but I apologize for this. Reading This article is sourced predominantly from Christian sources which make it biased. struck a chord with me. I mean, we've been over this before. First, there is no agreement or proof that if a scholar happens to be Christian, that we must characterize their works as "Christian". Do Christian surgeons perform Christian surgery, where an atheist has different techniques? A Christian engineer? This is discussed recently below in regards to whether another encyclopedia is a secular or Christian source. We need to get past the idea that Christians are unable to be professional and scholarly on the sole basis of their religious backgrounds. A Ken Ham saying the Genesis creation story is entirely historical in a very literal interpretation is a different bird from a Marcus Borg saying Jesus wasn't really born of a virgin and didn't really re-animate after his resurrection, etc. We can't lump them all in together. I simply don't get Christian=Biased. I understand some editors are concerned with this, and for statements regarding specifically how dominant the JM view is, I've conceded we should seek a wide array of sources (which we already found to support our text weeks ago... i.e. Grant/Wells). But I don't believe that every single bit of information we cite must also be sourced to an atheist, as that is detrimental to NPOV. Meier is a top scholar in his field. Why should we not be able to cite Meier in regards to what are the mainstream positions on the TF, or what scholars think of the Talmud? There is no evidence of bias on that material, and he isn't publishing from a Christian POV when making comments on those topics. Because of the diversity of Christian views, and because Christian can be top scholars in secular fields, I don't think it is fair, or appropriate (or dare I say ethical) to look briefly at our cited sources, then google their religious backgrounds, and conclude they are Christian ergo they are biased. It is unfair, and off base. But I guess we've been arguing about this for weeks now, with little progress. How does this affect article protection? What edits would the other side propose be made to correct this? Or could we agree to forgo any editing in this regard until there is consensus, as I have suggested above for the JM stuff. -Andrew c [talk] 15:27, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
- In view of your criticism of my spacing, I have tried rearranging it. Do you think it looks better now? Actually I like to chunk my writing because I think it is somewhat more digestible and looks less unattractive than a big block of prose. Just my preference though, and need not apply to anyone else's preference or style. Will be posting a meaningful reply to your response later. I am mulling over it for now.--Civilizededucationtalk 16:16, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
- Take your time in replying. And I didn't mean to harshly criticize your spacing or anything. It looks OK now. Just saying, I personally missed the top part because there was a couple line breaks between a paragraph in one area, but not others. This could be more my fault than yours, and I meant no offense, but thanks for reformatting anyway! -Andrew c [talk] 16:38, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
- In view of your criticism of my spacing, I have tried rearranging it. Do you think it looks better now? Actually I like to chunk my writing because I think it is somewhat more digestible and looks less unattractive than a big block of prose. Just my preference though, and need not apply to anyone else's preference or style. Will be posting a meaningful reply to your response later. I am mulling over it for now.--Civilizededucationtalk 16:16, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
- I said I'd not type more, but I apologize for this. Reading This article is sourced predominantly from Christian sources which make it biased. struck a chord with me. I mean, we've been over this before. First, there is no agreement or proof that if a scholar happens to be Christian, that we must characterize their works as "Christian". Do Christian surgeons perform Christian surgery, where an atheist has different techniques? A Christian engineer? This is discussed recently below in regards to whether another encyclopedia is a secular or Christian source. We need to get past the idea that Christians are unable to be professional and scholarly on the sole basis of their religious backgrounds. A Ken Ham saying the Genesis creation story is entirely historical in a very literal interpretation is a different bird from a Marcus Borg saying Jesus wasn't really born of a virgin and didn't really re-animate after his resurrection, etc. We can't lump them all in together. I simply don't get Christian=Biased. I understand some editors are concerned with this, and for statements regarding specifically how dominant the JM view is, I've conceded we should seek a wide array of sources (which we already found to support our text weeks ago... i.e. Grant/Wells). But I don't believe that every single bit of information we cite must also be sourced to an atheist, as that is detrimental to NPOV. Meier is a top scholar in his field. Why should we not be able to cite Meier in regards to what are the mainstream positions on the TF, or what scholars think of the Talmud? There is no evidence of bias on that material, and he isn't publishing from a Christian POV when making comments on those topics. Because of the diversity of Christian views, and because Christian can be top scholars in secular fields, I don't think it is fair, or appropriate (or dare I say ethical) to look briefly at our cited sources, then google their religious backgrounds, and conclude they are Christian ergo they are biased. It is unfair, and off base. But I guess we've been arguing about this for weeks now, with little progress. How does this affect article protection? What edits would the other side propose be made to correct this? Or could we agree to forgo any editing in this regard until there is consensus, as I have suggested above for the JM stuff. -Andrew c [talk] 15:27, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
- (outdenting)
- Hi Andrew c. Regarding 2) (The Ehrman stuff) I have read it again and still think that he is basically speaking about the whole of the Gospels. But he is also talking about M, L etc. nearby and it is a bit confusing, so, I will not press on it for now. I am trying to find some other RS which would say the same thing clearly. But if we look a little below on page 83 of Ehrman, the section titled “Sources within the Canon”, you find that he says[13].
If we look at the words “At the same time, I should stress…..” We find he stresses this point, at the same time as saying.At the same time, I should stress that the sources of the Gospels are riddled with just the same problems that we found in the Gospels themselves: they, too, represent traditions that were passed down by word of mouth, year after year, among Christians who sometimes changed the stories—indeed, sometimes invented the stories—as they retold them.
These Gospels were based on earlier sources—such as Q…..
The Gospels are based on earlier sources like Q, but they too are mired with the same problems as the Gospels. Christians sometimes changed some of the stories as they retold them year after year, and some of the stories are certainly cooked up stories.
- Regarding 3) ‘’Who is arguing that Jesus isn't mentioned twice in Josephus?’’ It is already clear that there are 87+ sources who do argue. So, there is no chance to justify a definitive statement that we presently have. We must qualify it, with some word. OK putting (arguably), with the brackets to top it off, wasn’t the right way to do it. It does stand out like a sore thumb and all, in an otherwise fine flow of prose. (I have come around to thinking that my writing suffers from an overuse of brackets. I am trying to get over it. But old habits die hard.) And the spelling too was wrong OK. But these things can be fixed. Let’s say, we put it something like this
Since it is highly disputed (87+), I think the present sentence is totally untenable. There is a really huge dispute about it containing them. Your argument that it contains two of them, is part of the great debate. In my view, if some document is thought be having two forgeries, it would be much less trustworthy than a document which is thought to be having one forgery. Anyway, since our opinions on the matter do not count for much, I think there is no point discussing them. Speaking about the great debate, I think we could elucidate in the article about some points on both sides of the argument. But let us save this for later.His works contain two highly disputed references to Jesus.
- Regarding 5) the “some” vs “few” thing, I really don’t understand why you would say that it is the crux of the issue. The whole of the article looks equally controversial to me and I have no particular love/hate relationship with this section. Maybe you guys had a good round on it sometime before I entered the scene, and I missed the drama. The whole article looks equally littered with problematic, controversial things to me. I think we should take it as usual and go about it without getting hyper. Since SV is expected to take a stab at this section, I think it we may drop this issue and have her do her thing first as a welcome gesture.
- Since you have asked what I think is POV in this article, I think I have already explained it that it is a Christian POV article because it is sourced primarily from Christian sources. NPOV demands that it be neutral POV. At present, it is speaking from Christian POV, not neutral POV. Moreover, it makes it appear that it is speaking from a neutral POV, thus deceiving, and misleading the reader into believing that he is reading a neutral POV article while he is not. This is what I want to correct by attribution. I am something of a fan of NPOV. Since I can see only (IMO) no-good arguments trying to stop me from doing it, it is inspiration enough for me to get going at it with all enthusiasm. I will keep arguing for attribution for as long as it takes. I love attribution.
- I would also like to clear your Christian=biased misconception. I am saying any Christian / Atheist / Muslim / X$ speaking on Christianity/Atheism/Islam/ X$=biased. Attribute it. It is going to to take much more discussion. Let’s leave it at this now.
- In the meantime, while I am arguing for attribution, I will pursue other ways of making this article NPOV by finding some new materials, and correcting misrepresentation, or cherry picking of old materials. It will be more time consuming, but it will be educative for me, and I have a growing interest in this subject. I intend to check out the whole of the article. Maybe with growing knowledge in this area, I would also be able to contribute to other articles with similar subject matter. Correcting misrepresentation, half representation, cherry picking, etc. of present sources is also an effective way of achieving NPOV. When I first took a look at this article, I was a bit slow to see my role in it. But now, I see my role, and am playing it.
- About no consensus, I think the argument is equally forceful both ways. There is no consensus for new edits, but there is no consensus for the old version too. So, it is worthless to discuss "no consensus".
- I also notice that, so far, you have not made any comments about one of my edits which you reverted. So, I take it that you have nothing to say on it and I can go ahead with reinstating it without much fanfare. If you have any comments/ objections / criticisms / suggestions about it, please provide it so that I can elucidate / retract/ expand / modify my views on it.
- Bye for now.--Civilizededucationtalk 15:13, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
- Sorry, I don't have much time for the computer today. Just to be clear, what is the one edit that I have not commented on, which you intend to reinstate without fanfare?-Andrew c [talk] 15:28, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
- [15] This one.-Civilizededucationtalk 16:16, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
- The idea that the special M and L material are physical documents instead of just oral traditions or personal knowledge or what have you is a hypothesis. Scholars also have hypothetical reconstructions of Q, but the idea that the gospels were based on earlier sources, isn't hypothetical. It is their reconstruction, and apparent use to scholars today. The author of Luke, in the introduction, says as much. I don't believe the addition of "hypothetical" in the sentence is needed, and in fact may cause confusion. As for Ehrman, I don't think we need to qualify that the gospels were based on earlier sources, some written. But I do think some of the material you quote would work well in a second paragraph in that sources behind the sources section. I think we need a paragraph explaining how scholars use the material, how reliable it is, etc. First paragraph just describes it, but we need analysis. As for Josephus, perhaps we can work out a compromise. "two highly disputed references" isn't correct, because "Only the second of these passages comes from him with any certainty" (Theissan p.64). My sources describe it as "he does mention him twice in the Jewish Antiquities", "he does make two tantalizingly brief appearances in the Antiquities, "the two references to Jesus in The Jewish Antiquities. etc. I think we should make it clear that a) there are two references/mentions of Jesus in Josephus. Scholars discuss them. One is basically accepted, the other is disputed, and clearly contains Christian interpolation. But we can't get anywhere without first saying there are two passages which scholars discuss consider. This isn't a "maybe" this is a "yes, they are there... now how did they get there". Perhaps the sentence needs another qualifying clause following it, but I don't believe your edit was a move in the right direction for these reasons. I disagree with your conclusions concerning bias, and the state of this article. I'd be curious to find other specific things you have problems with, instead of discussing our general differences concerning bias. -Andrew c [talk] 20:28, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
- [15] This one.-Civilizededucationtalk 16:16, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
- Sorry, I don't have much time for the computer today. Just to be clear, what is the one edit that I have not commented on, which you intend to reinstate without fanfare?-Andrew c [talk] 15:28, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
- The idea that the special M and L material are physical documents instead of just oral traditions or personal knowledge or what have you is a hypothesis. Please explain what it means. I am not clear about its meaning.-Civilizededucationtalk 08:37, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
- I think it means that -- the special M and L material are not hypothetical sources.-Civilizededucationtalk 18:22, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
Hi, its great to see that you sorted out the Ehrman issue. So, that leaves us with just the hypothetical thing and the TF issue. On the TF issue, I would like to see what clause you want to add, which could solve the issue.
On the "hypothetical" thing, you appear to be saying that they are not hypothetical, I do not agree. Let's leave it. Actually, if you look at the sentence in the article, you might reflect that it is a long sentence, and the reader is likely to get confused as to what "source documents" are being referred to. This is why I had added the word "hypothetical" there. I think, the reader is likely to assume that the "source documents" are something which he does not know about, and will not correlate it with the Q stuff. In such a situation, just because of the long list of heavyweight names in the sentence, the reader is likely to think that the "source documents" are some important documents on which the Gospels are based. We have already seen that Ehrman warns us against giving much value to the Q sources. Perhaps we should add another short sentence after this sentence to make the correlation clear. If you think that there is a better way to avoid this confusion, I would like to get a suggestion from you here too. The material is referenced, and even has the gbooks link, but does not give any page no. I tried finding it, but could not do it without the page no. Although I don't have anything against the material here, except for the confusion which I mentioned, I would still have liked to see what the book says. Anyway. Cheers.-Civilizededucationtalk 17:52, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
- First, sorry it took a while for me to reply. Didn't realize discussion way up here was still active. Next, I'm a bit confused about what book is missing a page number in the citation. That said, the sentence is a bit long and confusing, so I tried to simplify it. What do you think?-Andrew c [talk] 21:41, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
Hi. Of course it is better now. But there is more confusion!!!! It is clear now that the citation does have a page no. Let me explain from the beginning. This is the citation I am talking about.
“Crossan, John Dominic (1999). The birth of Christianity: discovering what happened in the years immediately after the execution of Jesus. Continuum International Publishing Group. p. 10. ISBN 9780567086686” You see, when I clicked at the link, it led to page X [16]of the book, which is part of the preface of the book. I could not relate the material there with the stuff we had. Here’s what we had.
”Consequently, scholars like Sanders, Geza Vermes, John P. Meier, David Flusser, James H. Charlesworth, Raymond E. Brown, Paula Fredriksen and John Dominic Crossan argue that, although many readers are accustomed to thinking of Jesus solely as a theological figure whose existence is a matter only of religious debate, the four canonical Gospel accounts are based on source documents written within decades after Jesus' lifetime, and therefore provide a basis for the study of the "historical" Jesus. These historians also draw on other historical sources and archaeological evidence to reconstruct the life of Jesus in his historical and cultural context.”
Then I went to page 10 of the book, and still could not make any connection with the stuff we had in the article. Then I thought that the “p10” in the citation is “something else” and that the citation does not have a page no. This is why I said that the material is referenced, but does not have a page no. But after you asked what citation is missing a page no., it became clear that “p10” is the page no. and the “page X” of the preface is intended.
After that, I tried to check what the book says on page X. But still couldn’t relate the contents of page X with the stuff we had. You know what I find. No list of heavyweight names, no--“although many readers are accustomed to thinking of Jesus solely as a theological figure whose existence is a matter only of religious debate, the four canonical Gospel accounts are based on source documents written within decades after Jesus' lifetime, and therefore provide a basis for the study of the historical Jesus.”
But I did find something similar to the last line of our stuff. The last line of our material is--"These historians also draw on other historical sources and archaeological evidence to reconstruct the life of Jesus in his historical and cultural context.”
Then only I realized that the citation was for the last line only, not for the whole paragraph. You see, except for the last line, the rest of our material appears to be all OR. And the last line of our stuff is also somewhat different from the material in the book. So, we have to take it down. It’s all OR. It is a totally twisted misrepresentation of what the book says. At most the last line of the para can be recovered. But I don’t think it would be meaningful to do so. Sad to say, the effort at simplifying it have been wasted. Not my fault, the one who put in this OR is to be blamed. But we can take heart; at least we located the OR through our efforts.
Just think, our readers were leaving the article with the impression that the Gospels are based on some “source documents” which these big names use and know about. And we had even made it appear that it was all sourced.
Do you think my impression of the issue is correct?
Now, coming on to the TF issue, you had said that we could work out a compromise on this. I had asked you to spell out what was on your mind, but you have ignored it.
Let’s look back, I make the edit, then you revert it, and say; “3) Who is arguing that Jesus isn't mentioned twice in Josephus?” Then, I was able to counter your objection by presenting material from within the article itself. And you then offer to make a compromise.
You know what; it shows that the article is inconsistent with itself. You made a claim based on one part of the article, and I could counter it with another part of the article. The same thing could happen to a reader if he got into a debate with someone. If this happens, the reader is likely to blame us for writing a misleading and inconsistent article. To make the article consistent, we must somehow qualify the factual-type statement that we have now. The factual type statement is inconsistent with other parts of the article. We must make it clear that it is a disputed thing. One way is to insert “highly disputed” in it. What do you say?
I had recounted our conflict only to highlight that the article is inconsistent with itself. I fully realize that I too could be in the same place as you if I had relied on the sentence in question. The fault is in the wording of the sentence.
If you do not want to discuss this issue, I will not press you again; I will have no choice but to move ahead unilaterally.
p.s. I am in no hurry to get this thread archived. The issues connected with it are very much alive.-Civilizededucationtalk 07:38, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
- I have removed the para ”Consequently, scholars like Sanders, Geza Vermes, John P. Meier, David Flusser, James H. Charlesworth, Raymond E. Brown, Paula Fredriksen and John Dominic..." because of reasons described above.
- There is no consensus for this change. You have to read the entire books; theis description is the description of entire books and it is the books as wholes that makes these points. It does not have to be a single quotation. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:10, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- We are left with 3) Who is arguing that Jesus isn't mentioned twice in Josephus?TF issue. I want to think out some more before deciding what to do. After that, maybe I would spell out other specific things that I have problem with. I can't ignore Andrew c's curiosity about them.-Civilizededucationtalk 02:24, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Hi Slrubenstein. Do you think it is OK to just gather something from a book as a whole and present it in a few lines? We have an encyclopedia to write. This sort of thing is going to lead to huge problems. Anyone can interpret a book to say whatever he wants. It dosen't mean we start keeping material like that. The citation even gives a page no. The material is simply not there. It's a clear case of OR. No consensus is not a reason for keeping OR. WP:NOR clearly say that the source must directly support the material as it is presented. Our source is far from being "spot on" with the material we have. If you think that our source supports the material we have, please show me the material in the source which supports our material. It is not enough to say that the book supports it as a whole.-Civilizededucationtalk 14:28, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- "Information in an article must be verifiable in the references cited. Article statements generally should not rely on unclear or inconsistent passages nor on passing comments. Passages open to multiple interpretations should be precisely cited or avoided." (WP:OR) In many cases the material is so badly worded that we need another source to tell us just what the first source actually says. For example, Take this quote from Michael Grant (Attitudes to the Evidence cross referenced to (Grant, Michael. Jesus: An Historian's Review of the Gospels. Scribner, 1995; first published 1977, p. 199)):
- Hi Slrubenstein. Do you think it is OK to just gather something from a book as a whole and present it in a few lines? We have an encyclopedia to write. This sort of thing is going to lead to huge problems. Anyone can interpret a book to say whatever he wants. It dosen't mean we start keeping material like that. The citation even gives a page no. The material is simply not there. It's a clear case of OR. No consensus is not a reason for keeping OR. WP:NOR clearly say that the source must directly support the material as it is presented. Our source is far from being "spot on" with the material we have. If you think that our source supports the material we have, please show me the material in the source which supports our material. It is not enough to say that the book supports it as a whole.-Civilizededucationtalk 14:28, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- "This skeptical way of thinking reached its culmination in the argument that Jesus as a human being never existed at all and is a myth. In ancient times, this extreme view was named the heresy of docetism (seeming) because it maintained that Jesus never came into the world "in the flesh", but only seemed to; (I John 4:2) and it was given some encouragement by Paul's lack of interest in his fleshly existence. Subsequently, from the eighteenth century onwards, there have been attempts to insist that Jesus did not even "seem" to exist, and that all tales of his appearance upon the earth were pure fiction. In particular, his story was compared to the pagan mythologies inventing fictitious dying and rising gods. (paragraph break) Some of the lines of thinking employed to disprove the Christ-myth theory have been somewhat injudicious."
- As was talked about in Talk:Jesus_myth_theory/Archive_39#Grant even when put back into a larger context it is unclear just what point Michael Grant is making here. It looks like he is saying the Christ Myth theory is a modern form of docetism but the passage is so awkwardly worded that unless we find another source telling us that claiming that the passage does this is WP:OR.--BruceGrubb (talk) 04:28, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
- This isn't awkwardly worded at all. It may help to re-read the sentence beginning "Subsequently, from the eighteenth century onwards, there have been attempts to insist that Jesus did not even "seem" to exist,..." Docetism is the idea that Jesus only seemed to exist in the flesh (but was actually pure spirit), which comes from the 1st-2nd centuries CE; Grant differentiates this from 18th century and later theories that Jesus didn't even seem to exist—he was completely fictional. There's no claim that the CMT is a modern form of docetism at all. --Akhilleus (talk) 04:48, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
The material I am talking about is light years away from being unclear. It's very clear that it isn't there. Should I wait more?-Civilizededucationtalk 08:24, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
- I agree that this paragraph is poorly worded. Certainly the authors quoted have made statements in the general direction indicated in the paragraph, but the way it is summarised here is selective to the point of misleading laypersons. To start off, I am very concerned about the sentence that reads "the four canonical Gospel, 'when examined critically' ...". This is factually correct in technical language, but I think it would help the layperson a lot if this sentence was reworded to read: "Authors X, Y and Z have all stated that the gospels cannot be taken literally, but that some reliable information on some issues can be extracted from the gospels if they are analysed with appropriate caution." The blue-links can then help the reader who wants specific information, and we can add individual references where we have them, to expand on this point. Wdford (talk) 09:04, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
- That would be eight sources for eight names. We would have to see what all of them say about the reliability of the Gospels. Generally they attest to the reliability of the Gospels with some caveats (even for some issues). It would still be a synthesis. I don't see why this OR/synthesis is needed at all.-Civilizededucationtalk 10:09, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
- Its actually a summary of what those authors have stated. It is valid material, in that the "history" (if any) of Jesus is heavily dependent on the content of the gospels, and the content of the gospels is only partially reliable, and we don't really know which "facts" are reliable and which not, therefore we can know very little about Jesus with any certainty. If you are not happy with this paragraph, then what do you propose to replace this with? Wdford (talk) 13:11, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
- I don't see the need for a long list of names to say this. Let's see how you want to rephrase the paragraph. Maybe we could do it without citing it. But we do need proper sourcing if we need names. AFAIKS, the section reads fine even without this material, and I am not really keen on keeping it. I agree that it may be relevant to say that we have to depend on the Gospels if we are to say anything on the Historicity of Jesus. Let's see how you want to do it.-Civilizededucationtalk 02:41, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
- How about that? Its a summary, without quotes. I have no objection to using a phrase like "several leading scholars" in place of specific names, as long as its clear that these are not fringe people. I also would like to use plain English instead of technical phrases such as "when viewed critically" and so forth. Wdford (talk) 14:16, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
- Sonofagun! It's great as it is.-Civilizededucationtalk 14:52, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
Merger--Christ Myth Theory and Historicity of Jesus
During the discussions on merger, some things are becoming clear to me.
I have become convinced that the hatnote on the Historical Jesus article accurately identifies the present Historicity of Jesus article.
This article is about Jesus, using historical methods to reconstruct a biography of his life and times. For disputes about the existence of Jesus and reliability of ancient texts relating to him, see Historicity of Jesus.
The second sentence of this hatnote accurately identifies this article. Actually, I was searching for an article on “Existence of Jesus”, and after passing through several hoops, it was this hatnote which led me to this article.
So, it appears to me that the present title of the article is somewhat off the mark.
Secondly, most scholars appear to engage in dissecting the life and times of Jesus, his sayings, actions, etc. but do not engage in debating the question of “Existence of Jesus”. Most of them appear to be avoiding a discussion on this issue by giving scathing, contemptuous reasons as exemplified below----
the Bishop Of Durham, N.T. Wright, compared it to a professional astronomer having to debate whether the moon is made of cheese.
. We all know about this and other similar statements.
Since the majority of scholars avoid a discussion on this debate, it may be that this whole article is fringe, and that the Christ Myth Theory and Historicity of Jesus are merely two parts of the same fringe debate.
As such, I want to propose a merger of these two articles.
The new, consolidated article would have all the material of these two articles, and we can continue to develop it from there. It would be a completely fringe place where fringe interested persons would come to get a view on this debate. We would take up the question of “Existence of Jesus”, and leave it as a question till the end.
Opinions / suggestions / criticisms? - —Preceding unsigned comment added by Civilizededucation (talk • contribs) 16:54, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
- I can agree to this - its as good a start point as any. I would suggest that the current CMT article is excessively long, and maybe we don't need a separate paragraph on every individual who ever commented on the subject. Many of these sources already have articles of their own, and the rest should be mentioned in summary only with references for the reader who wants to know the details on an author by author basis. Wdford (talk) 22:21, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
- I think I agree to this, though I'm not sure in which direction the merge is being proposed. I wouldn't mind seeing an article called Existence of Jesus, rather than "historicity," and deal with all the doubts and claims there. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 22:32, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
- I support the idea of a merger, in general, but I urge that the Quest for the historical Jesus be considered at the same time. I think that material from CMT, Historicity of Jesus, and Quest for the historical Jesus could all be merged and reorganized into two articles - a revamped Historical Jesus article that restricts itself for the most part to actual academic historians, addresses methodological/historiographic issues and then provides different versions of the reconstructed historical Jesus (I would put stuff on the Jesus Seminar and maybe even Price here), and an Existence of Jesus article that would include debates over the status of certain theological or specifically and explicitly Christian claims, or that are furthering claims that are explicitly presented as "atheist" or "secular humanist" views. I suspect that there may be some material left over from this process. Anything that is simply presenting a Christian view should go into Christology or Monarchism. I would like it if we could keep it an open question, as to whether or not it makes sense to have one article on debates during and in the wake of the Enlightenment versus 20th century debates - I am not urging this approach, just raising it as a possibility I ask people to keep in their minds while doing any merger. Slrubenstein | Talk 22:57, 1 September 2010 (UTC).
- I couldn't support a split that amounted to a POV fork by saying certain kinds of sources are allowed in one, but not the other. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 23:02, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
- I do not view this as the kind of POV fork that ought to be forbidden. POV forks are bad because they provide ways for people to present views in one article that had been rejected by people working on another article as silly. And by putting one set of views in one article, and another set of views in another, people can read either article (mis) believing that the views in that article are the only ones.
- That POV fork is bad and I oppose it. But this is not what I meant to suggest. I meant to suggest (1) content forks, because I am proposing different articles (two of which you already agreed to) on different topics. (2) each article I propose includes multiple and opposing views - you cannot call this a POV fork.
- Slim, you already agreed to two articles, one on the historical Jesus and one on the existence of Jesus and I am just agreeing with you. The only thing new I added to the mix is, that you have to consider the article on the Quest for the Historical Jesus in this merge/resplit process. Why would you object to that? That is m,y only real proposal.
- The fact is, when devout Christians and atheists debate the existence of God, they are substantively engaged in a different conversation than when historians discuss what rules to apply to the study of historical sources on Jesus. Theological debate is not the same thing as a historical debate. Putting them in diferent articles is not a POV fork. Tell me, is the fact that we have an Evolution article and a Creationism article a POV fork? Are you opposed to it? These are two popular and important articles; I have never heard you object to them. Slrubenstein | Talk 00:20, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
- I would just have one article, not two, that covers the debate about his existence. I'm not sure how debates about God fit in, but I would have one article on whether Jesus existed, arguments for and against. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 01:16, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
I agree with Civilizededucation that historicity of Jesus has a misleading title and should either be renamed, or the content should be moved elsewhere. (Another thing to consider: if this article simply disappeared, would there be a big problem? The body of the article is concerned with ancient sources that discuss Jesus, and each one of them is discussed in its own article and in others.)
I don't think I agree with the suggestion of creating an existence of Jesus article. Aside from simply being a title equivalent to historicity of Jesus, the only reason there's a "debate" about Jesus' existence (not properly characterized as a "debate" IMO) is because of people espousing the Christ myth theory. The best title for an article about that subject is Christ myth theory or Jesus myth theory (actually, I thought the article was going to be moved to the latter title, but for some reason that hasn't happened...) --Akhilleus (talk) 02:08, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
- I would agree that we should merge all three of historicity, CMT and quest. I also think we should postpone debates about forking until after we have done the merger and deleted the overlap. Once we have specific content on the table, the debate on the need or otherwise for daughter articles will be easier and less abstract. This is merely the first step of many, so we don't need to finalise the argument about future proliferation before we begin to correct the current proliferation. All material relating to religion should be placed in the various existing articles that deal with those religions, and can be dealt with here in one line with a blue-link to the article in question. As a title for the article, I would suggest we use "Historicity of Jesus" until things shake out a bit further - I'm sure a better title will suggest itself as the article actually takes shape. Other material will also be merged in over time, and rather have the final material drive the final title than agree a title now and then have that title exclude material that it would actually be appropriate to include. Wdford (talk) 06:36, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
- I agree with Wdford mainly because a search for "historicity of Jesus" (with the quotes) produces articles covering the full range that Ian Howard Marshall, Boyd-Eddy, Remsburg, and Barker talk about:
- "A criticism of the contention that Jesus never lives, a statement for the evidence for his existence, an estimate of his relation to Christianity" (The historicity of Jesus by Shirley Jackson Case of Department of New Testament Literature and Interpretation University of Chicago (1912))
- The historicity of Jesus: a survey of the evidence for the historical Jesus and the mythical nature of Christ Ronald Charles Tanguay (1988)
- (Chapter 23) "The Debate about the Historicity of Jesus" The quest of the historical Jesus' By Albert Schweitzer Bowden translation Page 391-393
- "Along with the vigorous attacks on the historicity of Jesus came the religious attempts of Kalthoff and Jatho to set forth a Christianity without historical credentials." (The American journal of theology: Volume 18 University of Chicago. Divinity School (1914) Page 201)
- Like it or not there term "Historicity of Jesus" covers the entire range of ideas from Jesus is total myth to the one that the Gospels are historical documents detailing the events exactly as they happened. That means it covers what is now Historical Jesus, Christ myth theory, Historicity of the Gospels, and Quest for the historical Jesus with some of Cultural and historical background of Jesus thrown in. As I said before, the mainstream view regarding the Historicity of Jesus is that the Gospels are a mixture of myth and history that give us some reliable information regarding a first century teacher named Jesus. Everything that departs significantly from that position is fringe:
- The Gospels being totally accurate records is fringe (assumes Jesus is historical)
- The minimalist position that the Gospels tell us next to nothing about the "real historical Jesus" to the point where he is little more than a Tabula rasa where he can be made to say and do anything is fringe. (assumes Jesus is historical)
- The idea that the Gospel Jesus is some sort of composite character made up of several teachers from different times is fringe. (a historical Jesus may be one of the components)
- The idea that the Gospel Jesus is a mythologizing of a flesh and blood teacher who lived much earlier than the Gospel account claims is fringe (assumes Jesus was a historical flesh and blood man)
- The idea that there was some Christ Myth floating around that a first century teacher who just happened to have the same name (Jesus) was plugged into is fringe. (while admiting Jesus is historical this has Jesus being originally a myth--Christ Myth theory per Walsh's definition)
- The idea that Jesus is a pure myth formed either intentionally or through natural process is fringe. (the pure myth Christ Myth position)
- Note of all these fringe "Historicity of Jesus" positions only the last one says Jesus didn't exist (ie never lived) Marshall Gauvin points out in "Did Jesus Christ Really Live? (ca. 1922)" "The Jesus Christ of the Gospels could not possibly have been a real person. He is a combination of impossible elements. There may have lived in Palestine, nineteen centuries ago, a man whose name was Jesus, who went about doing good, who was followed by admiring associates, and who in the end met a violent death. But of this possible person, not a line was written when he lived, and of his life and character the world of to-day knows absolutely nothing." So there is a kind of disconnect between saying the Jesus of the Gospels didn't exist and that there wasn't a flesh and blood Jesus in the first century (Pure myth Christ Myth). The first allows for a first century teacher whose connection is so partial that they might as well be two different people (Jesus Agnostic to extreme minimalist position).
- Far too much time is wasted in saying Christ Myth theory is fringe where there are so many other fringe parts of the "Historicity of Jesus" spectrum that are NOT the Christ Myth theory. Ie while Christ Myth theory (however you define the thing) is fringe, fringe is not always Christ Myth theory.--BruceGrubb (talk) 07:35, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
- I am opposed to an article named Christ myth theory or Jesus myth theory. These name views, and we should not have articles on views - that is the definition of a POV fork - we should have articles about what a view is about, and then have all views concerning that topic or question. We can call it Existence of Jesus or Historicity of Jesus but at least such a topic would allow for the gamut of views rather than be a POV fork.
- Bruce laid out a number of references, but did not give us any contextual information. Bruce, are all of these people engaged in the same debate i.e. debating one another? A book on plate tectonics can have an introductory chapter stating that in the 17th century most people thought the earth thought that the planet was only 6,000 years, but it would be a mistake to suggest to our readers that the author of this book is engaged in a debate asgainst that view, or really even is speaking to that view.
- I have read many of these books and I see many of them dividing into two groups (there may be a third I haven't noticed). Some books argue for Jesus' existence. They are not based on any scholarly research on 1st century history, they generally rely on secondary sources (i.e. books by 1st century historians and Bible scholars) and therefore they make mention of the work by historians on the historical Jesus, but it is not their own research, and they are not contributing to that research, and not engaged in any debate with those historians. They are debating against people who claim Jesus never existed, and most of these people are not historians either but refer to works by historians. Other books are by historians of the 1st century. They often have a paragraph or a chapter on the history of modern debate about Jesus and may well refer to people who debate Jesus' existence, but this is usually in order to explain how and why this book or article is different, how and why historians make different assumptions and ask different questions. Most of these books say that the authors think it is highly likely that Jesus existed, but do not try to "prove" that he existed; they are instead asking, if Jesus existed what did he likely teach, and what did he likely do, and why was he exectuted - they raise these questions because they take it for granted that the Gospels are not reliable history. These are books that often present relatively detailed resconstructions of Jesus, but a life of Jesus that diverges in some important ways from the gospel accounts. The accounts are part of an argument that the author is making against other historians who have presented other reconstructions of the historical Jesus.
- So, two debates: one providing a set of views on the question, did Jesus exist, largely based on secondary sources; the other providing a set of views on if Jesus existed, what was he most likely doing and why was he most likely killed, largely based on original research on primary sources. Now, there is a clear overlap between these two sets of books if you are using software to do a content analysis. Both each set of books refers to at least some books from the other set. My point is that they are nevertheless two debates among two different groups of people addressing two different kinds of questions.
- I am concerned that people are proposing ways of grouping books and articles based on descriptions at Amazon.com or snippets from Google scholar, rather than from having actually read the books and articles in their entirety. As a result, some editors have distorted views of the writings on these related but distinct topics. But if this is how we go about writing articles, we will end up with articles that really distort academic research and fail to represent it accurately to our readers. That is not right.
- Historian Jim Clifford wrote a fascinating article about a court trial on whether or not the Mashpee Indians of Masasachussets were indeed Indians and therefore deserving of Federal recognition and rights. He describes how of all the witnesses called to the stands it was the anthropologists who squirmed most. Passages that they wrote about the complex ways in which ethnic identity can be created (socially constructed) by the state, how markers of indigeneity are recent inventions, were all used to suggest that the Mashpee were not "real" Indians. The problem was, the argument among Federal lawmakers and jurists over who is and is not an Indian is a completely separate debate from the one anthropologists have over the social construction of ethnicity. The rules of evidence and the fact that witnesses had to provide direct answers to direct questions meant that these anthropologists could not even speak the way they were trained to - through long lectures exploring the complexities of an issue, or through academic debate in which one question could reasonably be replied with another question. Academic discourse has rules scholars are socialized into during graduate school and through their career - in the trial, they had to play be entirely different rules. The anthropologists he interviewed expressed real frustration that they were being misunderstood.
- Noam Chomsky made a similar point about why he is seldom asked to be on news shows, and seldom says yes. I saw a film in which he explained that the real questions are often never asked and if he ever tries to give an answer that explains why things are more complicated than people think, and speaks for more than 60 seconds, he is either told that he has to shut up to make time for the other guest or what he says is edited out.
- My point is not that TV news is bad and academia is good. By point is that in this world there can be multiple conversations about the same or similar things. To distinguish between these conversations - say, the trial about the Mashpee versus anthropological research on the Mashpee - is not a POV fork. Each conversation has multiple points of view. It is a content fork, because the questions and criteria or methods for answering those questions are different, and mixing them up just leads to misunderstanding. An anthropologist can even analyze the legislative or judicial debates about the Mashpee and offer her own analysis of the relationship betwen the Mashpee and the state. But such work is seldom or never considered by Congress, or taken seriously by a judge. The rules by which judges make decisions and by which anthropologists make decisions are very different, and serve different purposes.
- Based on the books I have read, the same thing is going on here. The conversation over whether Jesus existed is not for the most part a conversation among historians - historians often mention it but only as a prelude to doing what they really mean to do in their books - it si a conversation among other people who as Civilized said many people (not historians) are interested in. And the conversation among historians is not primarily over whether Jesus existed. Every major historian I have read has written that historians seldom can answer such questions, that all they can do is look at the sources available, and reconstruct what historians consider a plausible or reasonable account of what was going on at a certain time. These are two different conversations and to mix them up is like learning anthropology just from listening to the anthropologist testify in court. Sure, it is an anthropologist talking, but he is answering someone else's questions and following the rules of the court. The knowledge he produces in that arena is not at all representative of the scholarship he produces in academic journals and academic books that respond to and are written for other anthropologists. To learn anthropology just from what Sturtevant said in a Massachussetts courthouse is not really to learn about what anthropologists think. If we mix these two conversations up, a whole set of views (not one view - I mean multiple, opposing views, but views of a certain kind) will be distorted or lost. I think it s a terribly unscholarly-way to write an encyclopedia article. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:30, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
- SLR makes an excellent point - which rules do we play by here? To make use of SLR’s example of the Mashpee Native Americans – the Mashpee were trying to demonstrate that they are an Indian Tribe, and they used the Indian Rules of Tribalism to prove this. Their opponents used the White Rules of Tribalism. The outcome of the case was essentially determined by which definition the jury chose to use. So – what Rules do we use? “Scholarliness” has its strengths. However, do we write articles using scholarly language, scholarly interpretation and layered obfuscation that only other scholars could understand and appreciate, or do we write in plain English so that ordinary people can understand it, and be informed by it? See for example WP:Manual_of_Style#Clarity. Some might argue that we should have one article that is a "Scholarly discussion of scholarship for scholars", and a second article that explains the facts (or lack of facts, as the case may be), for the other 99.9999% of the readership. I vote we start with the second article, and perhaps deal with the first article later, if at all. Wdford (talk) 14:16, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks - but I do not think this is a style thing; all articles should be well-written, and there are very few scholarly ideas that cannot be explained clearly to a lay audience, none relating to this topic. Also, it is not an "either/or" decision. We should NOT choose "the Mashpee rules" or "US Federal law" or "anthropology rules." My point is that in any converation where people are debating a topic or a set of related topic, people who are talking to one another have implicit rules for how to communicate and be understood - these rules can influence what is considered a stupid tangeent versus a new but highly salient topic, or influence what questions researchers (or judges, or Indians) think are worth asking. My point is that if you mix these up, several views end up getting misrepresented. So each "conversation" should have its own article. NPOV is NOT violated, since for each conversation we continue to include all significant views. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:08, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
- SLR makes an excellent point - which rules do we play by here? To make use of SLR’s example of the Mashpee Native Americans – the Mashpee were trying to demonstrate that they are an Indian Tribe, and they used the Indian Rules of Tribalism to prove this. Their opponents used the White Rules of Tribalism. The outcome of the case was essentially determined by which definition the jury chose to use. So – what Rules do we use? “Scholarliness” has its strengths. However, do we write articles using scholarly language, scholarly interpretation and layered obfuscation that only other scholars could understand and appreciate, or do we write in plain English so that ordinary people can understand it, and be informed by it? See for example WP:Manual_of_Style#Clarity. Some might argue that we should have one article that is a "Scholarly discussion of scholarship for scholars", and a second article that explains the facts (or lack of facts, as the case may be), for the other 99.9999% of the readership. I vote we start with the second article, and perhaps deal with the first article later, if at all. Wdford (talk) 14:16, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
- While I understand the point both Wdford and Slrubenstein are making I must remind them that we have to have something that meets Wikipedia:Verifiability to back it up and to date we haven't seen anything that even hints at the split they are seeing. The only thing we at this point do have are four sources (two notable-Remsburg and Barker; two reliable-Ian Howard Marshall and Boyd-Eddy) that say that the Historicity of Jesus covers a spectrum of ideas. Marshall defines the full range; Remsburg, Barker, and Boyd-Eddy break that spectrum into four categories and while Boyd-Eddy points out his categories are "overly simplistic", "ideal-typical", and "a useful heuristic" this is only implied by Remsburg and Barker.
- Interestingly it is the two notables not the other reliable that best mesh with Marshall:
- "Orthodox Christians believe that Christ is a historical character, supernatural and divine; and that the New Testament narratives, which purport to give a record of his life and teachings, contain nothing but infallible truth." to "Other Freethinkers believe that Jesus Christ is a pure myth -- that he never had an existence, except as a Messianic idea, or an imaginary solar deity." (Remsburg)
- "The New Testament is basically true in all of its accounts except that there are natural explanations for the miracle stories." to "Jesus never existed at all and that the myth came into being through a literary process." (Barker)
- The fact that the categories of Remsburg, Barker, and Boyd-Eddy don't full match just shows that these categorizes are not clearly defined and very from author to author.
- IMHO Historicity_of_Jesus should be like the "The Quest for the Historical Jesus" chapter in The Historical Jesus: Five Views or In search of Jesus: insider and outsider images By Clinton Bennett where you get the major contributors in a more or lest chronological order and what effect they had.--BruceGrubb (talk) 18:13, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
- Paula Fredricksen and Geza Vermes and to a lesser extent Dominic Crossan are widely assigned in University courses relating to Jesus; their principle works mention the question of whether Jesus existed only in passing - they say that while historians are confronted with several logical possibilities (definitely did not exist, definitely did exist) most take a position somewhere in the middle ... but they do not spend most of or even a significant amount of ttime arguing why, and to characterize their books as arguing that Jesus existed, or engaging the arguments over whether he existed, is inaccurate. Sanders spends a few pages justifying his position that Jesus probably existed but he does so explicitly as an historian (i.e. discussing the criteria historians use for looking at other people from antiquity) and not as a Christian. So here are four books at least that really do not belong in an article on the Existence of Jesus. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:22, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
- SLR, I'm still not clear about what you're suggesting if not POV forks. We can't have a scholarly article on animal rights and a popular one. The scholarly article, which would rely on academics who specialize in AR, would be almost 100 percent pro AR. The popular one would be full of hate. They would be POV forks. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 19:09, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
- I think I get what he is discussing. It is something similar to the Race of ancient Egyptians article as well. Basically, he is saying that the idea of Jesus being basically a myth is a non-starter to most academics, who as often as not just mention the general rejection of the idea by academics. However, that does not mean that, in non-academic or not-quite-fringe/alternative views academia, the idea does not get a great deal of attention. So, like some other not-quite-fringe ideas, it gets overlooked and dismissed out of hand by most academics but discussed at length by a few others. Because most of the "mainstream academics" (for lack of a better word) basically say, essentially, "wrong", while the others discuss it at length, keeping them in the same article would lead to a bit of an imbalance in that article, because the short dismissals do not regularly deal with the details of the not-quite-fringe proposals. I am close to right here, SLR? If I am, then I think that there is a basis for separating the two. Maybe we should contact WP:WikiProject Alternative Views regarding their input. John Carter (talk) 19:40, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
- The current structure of articles already allows for extensive coverage of the idea that Jesus was a myth, so I don't think this is a problem that needs to be solved. The idea that he wasn't historical is in Jesus myth theory; there's also Jesus Christ in comparative mythology, which covers ideas that there was a historical Jesus, but this figure has been overlaid with material drawn from mystery religions and other Graeco-Roman or Near Eastern mythologies. --Akhilleus (talk) 20:26, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
- Again, Akhilleus ignores the fact that some of the people called Christ Myth Theorists do hold that there was a historical Jesus but the Gospel account is almost if not total fiction. Some of these so called "Christ Myth Theorists" say this related by name only Jesus lived in the first century while other put this Jesus lived c100 BCE which would still be a historical person turned into a myth and before anyone goes into the "Jesus of Nazareth didn't exist" song and dance I should point out that a story about a composite character is strictly speaking is a history of no one.
- Wells' current potion is that a possibly mythical Paul Jesus was combined with a Q Jesus who was not crucified to form the Gospel Jesus and says Jesus of Nazareth is a composite character and therefore by definition could not have existed. Any yet Wells says this is not a Christ Myth Theory position (at least as Boyd-Eddy defines it).--BruceGrubb (talk) 07:05, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
- To John: That's a description of a POV fork. Here are the sensible people who believe X. And here are the silly people who believe not-X. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 21:50, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not so sure it is necessarily a POV fork, as per the quote from WP:CFORK "A point of view (POV) fork is a content fork deliberately created to avoid neutral point of view guidelines, often to avoid or highlight negative or positive viewpoints or facts." It might more accurately, maybe, be characterized as a "history of a realtively well-defined, if not necessarily agreed-upon, range of minority opinion." Now, this isn't saying that I myself really like seeing such articles, having been involved in that one, but I can see if the subject is one which has been discussed frequently, from a variety of different angles, it might make sense to have it, and, like I said earlier, I think those sorts of articles, including a lot of conspiracy theories, some of which I myself give substantial credit to (I won't say which), have been found to be acceptable. John Carter (talk) 23:39, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
- To John: That's a description of a POV fork. Here are the sensible people who believe X. And here are the silly people who believe not-X. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 21:50, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
- It's a classic example of a POV fork, John, and it would be perennially in violation of policy because anyone trying to add the "wrong" kind of source would be directed to some other article. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 00:26, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
- And that sort of removal has happened at Race of ancient Egyptians, including at least once by me. But that article continues to stand without regular overwhelmingly serious problems, as have many of the conspiracy theory articles and other similar ones. I guess the problem with that article, as well as others, is clearly and explicitly defining the content of the article in the lead to make it easier for editors to see the topic. That can be difficult, admittedly, and has been in the past. But maybe using a title something like History of the Jesus myth theory might help reduce those problems. John Carter (talk) 00:35, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
- It's a classic example of a POV fork, John, and it would be perennially in violation of policy because anyone trying to add the "wrong" kind of source would be directed to some other article. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 00:26, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
- Again the Jesus myth theory covers a lot of ground including the idea that there was a flesh and blood Jesus...only that he lived c100 BCE. As Price states in The Historical Jesus: Five Views pg 80-81 he views the date incompatibilities of Irenaeus, Talmud, and Gospel Jesus as "residue of various attempts to anchor an originally mythic or legendary Jesus in more or less recent history."
- A legendary Jesus made more relevant by making him seem recent (perhaps even using the vague stories of some recent teacher of the same name) is totally different from saying he is totally mythical and yet BOTH are part and parcel of the Jesus myth theory as in the very same book Price calls Ellegard along with the early Wells as a mythicist.
- Trying to say it really means Jesus of Nazareth did exist doesn't work as Wells current position (which he says is minimalist) is that Jesus is a composite character (by definition non historical) formed form the merger of a mythical-legendary Paul Jesus plus a historical Q Jesus who was not crucified.
- About the only thing certain about Jesus myth theory is the Gospel account has so much myth nothing including when or even if the Jesus described really lived.--BruceGrubb (talk) 21:46, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
- What does that have to do with merging? SlimVirgin talk|contribs 21:47, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
- I think I "get" Akhellius when he says that it is not a debate. It can't be a real debate with one side preferring to remain totally aloof and regarding the dabate as a moot thing. I think it is a not-debate/discussion/description of the various factors around the question of "Existance of Jesus". I think a merger of the two articles would result in an intelligent description of the various angles and factors around this fringe question and give the interested reader what he wants. I think we have a consensus to move ahead with the merger; Existence of Jesus being the tentative title of the merged content. We can add other articles,as suggested, into it as we move along.--Civilizededucationtalk 02:36, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
- What does that have to do with merging? SlimVirgin talk|contribs 21:47, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
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I'm still opposed to this. I don't see any benefit to merging, and I think it's quite likely that the article will turn into an incoherent series of points pro and contra Jesus' historicity rather than an article that covers the history of an idea.
BTW, this proposal hasn't been mentioned at Talk:Christ myth theory, and it's not entirely certain that all the editors at that article watch this one. I'll post a notice there. --Akhilleus (talk) 02:54, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
I don't think it's a manageable idea. The CMT is about 35% larger than this article so merging will mean that a lot of important details will be lost or overshadowed. Therefore, I think that the amount of text (a paragraph worth) devoted in this article to the CMT is just fine and mirrors the amount of space given to the the Moon landing hoax in the Moon landing article. Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 03:20, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
- To answer SlimVirgin's earlier response of "what does that have to do with merging?" to my demonstration of how complex the Christ Myth theory was, a merger would get rid of the what is and what is not the Christ Myth Theory problem that has plagued the article for years. You simply present the position people of Drews, Strauss, Bauer, Schweitzer, Wells Price, etc and the reaction of the mainstream and move on.
- As for loosing anything a good hunk of the current article can be either be spun off into a Documentation of Jesus article or merged into their parent articles. That leaves only two short paragraphs more than enough room. If the article still becomes too long we can use Quest for the historical Jesus to spin things off based on chronology (first, second or third quest). Not hard at all.--BruceGrubb (talk) 05:37, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
(edit conflict)
- As for comparing Moon landing hoax and CMT that has much the same Provenance and technological then vs now problems Holocaust denial has with some practical social political added in for good measure. That the pro historical Jesus side trots out such blatant Strawmen and expect to be still be taken seriously show bad judgment on their part.
- Bulfinch in the "Origin of Mythology" chapter points out six different ways myths were thought to come about: Scriptural, Historical, Allegorical, Astronomical, Physical, and explanation for natural phenomena. He also said "All the theories which have been mentioned are true to a certain extent."
- The claim that if Jesus hadn't exist the point would have been raised ignores evidence from Eusebius (Preparation of the Gospel} that Euhemerism (Bulfinch's Historical category) may have been a common view back then.
- This is why statements on Christ Myth theory like Bromiley's "This view states that the story of Jesus is a piece of mythology, possessing no more substantial claims to historical fact than the old Greek or Norse stories of gods and heroes,..." are more confusing then helpful especially when he follows up a sentance about Lucian's criticism regarding the Jesus story being being a pale imitation of Apollonius of Tyana with a sentence on the death and resurrection story said to resembling dying and rising god cults like that of Attis, Adonis, Osiris, and Mithras. "Osiris, Attis, Adonis were men. They died as men; they rose as gods." (Encyclopædia of religion and ethics, Volume 10 (1919) edited by James Hastings, John Alexander Selbie, Louis Herbert Gray) "In recent years the historical reality of Osiris as a king who one lived and reigned in Egypt has been maintained by more than one learned scholar" (J. G. Frazer The Golden Bough). Was Bromiley actively trying for the most confusing examples imaginable?!--BruceGrubb (talk) 08:08, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
- I think a new name is suggesting itself. Did Jesus Exist ?. This could be a more accurate name for the merged content. We would take it up as a question, and leave it as a question. It would be fully in need of all the content of these two articles. It looks more appropriate because we are treating a fringe question rather than a fringe debate. The length of the merged content should not be a problem because the merged content is likely to be shorter than expected. Some things are common in both articles and we would be needing just one lead. Secondly, as described above, we would also be saved from describing what CMT is, and what it is not.-Civilizededucationtalk 07:14, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
- Did Jesus Exist ? is IMHO a horrible title as it implies a yes or no answer and would just open the doors to the repeatedly slam head into wall hit yourself in head with hammer fun that has been the Christ Myth theory article for the last three years.--BruceGrubb (talk) 08:26, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
The articles should be merged. That fact is extremely obvious when you take a step back, look at the talkpage, and take in a scenic view of the pointless nonsense that has been going on for years because they were not merged. --dab (𒁳) 08:03, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
- It's just a proposal Bruce, not a stout marker of my position. We can always improve upon it if something better comes up.-Civilizededucationtalk 09:07, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
- SlimVirgin's analogy that you cannot have an article on a popular debate on animal rights and a scholarly depate on animal rights sounds like deliberate obfuscation. I have already explained that there are two debates focusing on two different questions. There is one debate on whether or not Jesus existed. There is another debate that brackets that question as unanswerable in any definite sense and puts in its place an assumption that he probably existed, in order to ask different questions. Right now we have several articles - Historical Jesus, Christ Myth Theory, and Quest for the historical Jesus - where there is considerable overlap. We need to consolidate them, but if we just merged them we would have (1) an article that is too long and (2) an article that does not make sense. It is time to rethink the different topics that fall under the larger topic of "Jesus." In the section above I proposed a plan for redividing articles. Now we are discussing another one. I do not understand Bruce Grubb's rejection of an article on "the existence of Jesus." He seems not to like it because it can be answered by a yes or a no. Of course he is flat out wrong, because any question like this admits to at least four answers: yes, kno, I do not know, or maybe. Be that as it may, is this not what our NPOV policy demands, that we include different views? To say there should be two different articles is not a POV fork. Now I have already asked the following question to Slim Virgin and she avoided answering it. I will ask again, and I would appreciate an answer: we have an article on Creationism and an article on Evolution. Is this not a POV fork? Are you going to propose that these two articles be mreged? A second question: why have you been working on Christ myth theory which is explicitly a POV fork (the Christ Myth Theory is obviously a point of view about Jesus, that he was a myth. That people may have different views about what exactly the "myth" is does not change the fact that the article is about the view that Christ is a myth. You cannot get more POV-forky than that. I do not understand why Slim Virgin is defending a POV fork. My proposal gets us away from that. I do not see why anyone would object, unless they are intent on pushing the view that Christ is a myth and think that this view would somehow disappear. Anyone who has read my proposal knows that this view would not disappear. But an article that is clearly a POV-fork, Christ Myth Theory, has to go. An article called "Christ Myth Theory" declares a bias for one of these views, and trying to make it NPOV by then having a section on people who oppose the theory is not in my view faithful to the spirit of NPOV; it is subordinating one view to another. The view that Christ is a myth belongs in an article the encompasses all views, that Christ was a myth, that he was not, that he might be. These views are all responses to the same question: did Jesus Christ exist. So I think Civilized Education's proposal, that the article be titled, Existence of Jesus, is a great suggestion. It names the question at the heart of this debate quite clearly. Any significant view that is a response to this question belongs in the article. This is not a POV fork. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:39, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
- Could you explain why the animal rights (AR) analogy is obfuscation, deliberate or otherwise? I think the analogy is a good one. The specialists you want to highlight are religious scholars, Christian and non-Christian, who argue that Jesus existed. You want to devote an article to their views alone. Similarly, I could create an article focusing only on the views of scholars who specialize in AR and assume it's a good thing, and who want to ask different questions about it, more sophisticated ones, rather than rolling around in the mud with the haters. So we could create a second article about AR for the non-scholarly, hateful views of newspapers and others who know nothing about it. I wouldn't mind that, because I like AR, but Wikipedia would call it a POV fork. Why is what you are proposing any different? SlimVirgin talk|contribs 01:39, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- Your analogy is false - I think - because as far as I know philosophers are debating the same questions people in the streets are. But the question of whether Jesus existed, and the question of what a historical Jesus would have been like, are two separate questions. You say that the specialists I highlighted are religious scholars. You meant to write "scholars of religion" - the phrases do not mean the same thing. They are not arguing that jesus existed. They assume he existed and then ask how the sources about him have to be interpreted. Surely you can tell the difference between an assumption and a conclusion. You keep saying that they are arguing that Jesus existed but this suggests to me that either have not read them, or are interpreting them in terms of your own interests. Slrubenstein | Talk 09:41, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- I meant to write what I wrote: "religious scholars." And they are discussing what Jesus was like because they believe that he was like something; they believe he existed. Academics don't write articles about what Dionysus would have been like had he existed: who his parents might have been, where he might have been born.
- Well, then you and I are talking about two different groups of scholars, because i am not referring to religious scholars, I am talking about historians of religion. You are right that historians do not write about what Dionysus would have been like, but this is a bad analogy. They do write about what Socrates or if you prefer Pythagoras was like, and the people I am talking about are historians. You are making a deductive argument about an empirical question: you think you have some kind of authoratative expertise on what historians do, and based on your beliefs, you deduce that since x and y do not do what you want them to do, they cannot be historians. This is simply a way for you to perpetuate your own biased point of view. This is really an empirical question: look at historians based on some criteria other than what I happen to believe in, and then see how they work, what they do. Slrubenstein | Talk 09:44, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- Please explain to me how the AR analogy is a false one. It seems very precise to me. AR scholars write about the ways in which AR arguments mirror rights arguments in other areas; the debates are complex and require some background in philosophy to understand properly. In the meantime newspapers and others write about what nonsense AR is. AR scholars rarely if every respond to the "it's evil nonsense" arguments, because there's nothing of substance to reply to. Therefore we do essentially have two debates: the scholarly and the less-informed. Your suggestion seems to be that we could therefore create two articles about AR: one that assumes the rightness of AR then discusses the details, and one that questions the rightness of it. That would be a POV fork, and it's what you are suggesting here. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 21:46, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- Answering your creationsim/evolution question separately. The reason we have two articles, and in fact a good deal more than two, is that there's an enormous amount of material about what are two very different world views, world views that are only rarely discussed seriously by the same people. In the case of Jesus, we have almost no information about him—and none at all in the view of some scholars—so there's simply no need to spread a discussion about his existence over multiple articles from multiple perspectives. The analogy therefore doesn't hold. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 01:45, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- Wait - are you saying that if we have lots of material the way to handle it is a POV fork? Here you say that each article represents two different "world views." I thought NPOV demands that we include multiple especially differing views in an article. Are you actually saying that NPOV requires us to include different "views," but not different "world views?" Where does it say that in NPOV policy? Why do you think once something is a world view a POV fork is allowed? You are really confusing me, are you opposed to POV forks or in favor of them? before you seemed to be arguing against them, and now you are arguing for them? Slrubenstein | Talk 09:41, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- No, I'm saying that when we have overwhelming amounts of material about "how the universe and life began," we prefer not to create one 10-million-word-long article about it, so we split it into different articles. Where there is a significant split in world views, that suggests a natural fork. But there is very little historical material, if any, that tells us Jesus existed, so we are not faced with those decisions here. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 21:53, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- "There is very little historical material, if any, that tells us Jesus existed." So suddenly you are a historian? Have you published in a peer-reviewed journal? It seems like NOR no longer applies, when your own personal views are at stake. It is not for us to dictate how historians work, or how they interpret historical documents. What matters is that there are historians who have written on Jesus.
- In the meantime, we do not actually have overwhelming evidence about how the universe was created (microwave radiation and the doppler effect, basically), and even less for how life began, but that doesn't matter. I am perfectly willing to grant that we need more than one article on the creation of species. The question is, do we handle this through content forks or through POV-forks? POV forks are not the only kind of forks, and there are other ways of handling the "lots of information on the creation of species" matter, surely we can come up with content forks rather than a POV fork. All I see is your double-standard - in some cases a POV fork is fine, but in other cases it is wrong. You have yet to describe a consistent principle. Do you have one? Slrubenstein | Talk 09:44, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- I have been a fan of Slim in the past, but here I think her position is weak. Recently, I read all three articles (Historical Jesus, Christ Myth Theory, and Quest for the historical Jesus) and what struck me was that they were very, very unreadable. Slrubenstein's suggestions are basically common sense. - Ret.Prof (talk) 12:04, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
- They're unreadable because poorly written, poorly researched, and long-winded. That's not relevant to the question of whether they ought to become one or two articles. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 01:39, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- Slrubenstein, you just demonstrated another problem the Christ Myth theory article has--the really flaky nature regarding some of the definitions.
- A Jesus that existed c100 BCE regardless of him being in the Talmud or Dead Sea scrolls would still be a Jesus who existed but that has been labeled as Christ Myth Theory as well.
- Wells current position of mythic-legendary Paul Jesus + historical Q who wasn't crucified = Gospel Jesus basically has the Gospel Jesus as a composite character and to make a very bad pun 'the story of a composite of two people is the history of no one both figuratively and literally' but Wells insists this is not a Christ Myth theory postilion even though Carrier and Doherty call it an example of ahistoricity and "modern Jesus mythicists" respectively.
- As for Historical Jesus, Christ Myth Theory, and Quest for the historical Jesus being unreadable I disagree but then I can read Binford who gives most non anthropological scholars migraines (IMHO that man needs to go and relearn the wonders of the introductory paragraph). Quest for the historical Jesus is in essence a list article--here are the people of the The First Quest, here are the people of the second (New) quest, and here are the people of the current third quest--not hard to read but also not very informative.
- Historical Jesus and Christ Myth Theory have different problems which could IMHO fixed with a merger.--BruceGrubb (talk) 12:20, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
- The Quest for historical Jesus article is very informative about one important thing: the different contexts for historically distinct discussions about Jesus. This is valuable in understanidng different views in their context. If you think it is just a list of other articles, then let's delete it and create a disambiguation page or a page that is simply a list of NT historians and/or theologians, i.e. a pure list article. I do not object to taking the names of people in CMT at QHJ and creating such a page that is a pure list of links to articles on different historians (or theologians or philosophers etc.) But if we do this, there is one thing from QHJ page that needs to be incorporated into any other article or articles that are created through the proposed reorganization, and that is the fact that different views are organized into distinct debates each in a different historical matrix. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:00, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
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- I would happily support the merger of all three articles (Historicity, Quest and CMY) into an article called Existence of Jesus as proposed. Its just a first step, and we will certainly improve on this as we proceed, so let's take the first step and see what happens. If a spin-off article is required, the need will become obvious and it won't be difficult to get consensus on it when the time comes. Wdford (talk) 15:11, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
- But wait a minute. Quest for the historical Jesus isn't about the existence of Jesus, it's about scholarship on the historical Jesus. The rationale of this merger is that those are distinct conversations. If Quest for the historical Jesus needs to be merged (the more satisfactory solution would be to develop it so it's not a list, but an actual history), it should go in historical Jesus, not the proposed existence of Jesus. --Akhilleus (talk) 15:20, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
- My proposal anticipates Aknilleus: merge three articles (QHJ, CMT, HJ) into two (existence of Jesus AND the Historical Jesus). My view, like Akhilleus, is that it looks like QHJ would mostly go into an article on the historical Jesus (perhaps the three stages could provide a basis for reorganizing the article, and providing more historical context for each debate/effort). But I have not read all of the people mentioned in the QHJ article. If it turns out that some of them are trying to prove the existence of Jesus, then those people would go into the Existence article. Akhilleus, if you have read all of their works and know that none of them were engaged in that debate, fine. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:32, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
agree with Dbachmann above. Once you get out of the echochamber in here the fact that the articles need to be merged becomes self evident. -- ۩ Mask 16:27, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
- Agree. This whole issue springs from POV pushing. Jesus myth theory, historicity of Jesus, quest for the historical Jesus (which doesn't really say anything) and and probably historical Jesus too, could easily be tightened and merged into a new Existence of Jesus. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 01:52, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- It seems to me that we have articles addressing two different basic questions. Historicity of Jesus and Jesus myth theory address the question "Did Jesus exist?"; historical Jesus and quest for the historical Jesus address the question "What sort of chap was this Jesus fellow?". Even if one subscribes to one of the various "myth" views that BruceGrubb has elucidated, the second question is valid, in the sense that the question "What sort of chap was Santa Claus?" could be considered a valid question. If any merging occurs I think there would be value in keeping these rhetorical questions separate, i.e. merging Historicity of Jesus and Jesus myth theory into Existence of Jesus and subsuming quest for the historical Jesus into historical Jesus. PeaceLoveHarmony (talk) 03:30, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- Actually the two questions are related. The quest for the historical Jesus basically asks "how much of the New Testament story is reliable and matches with historical data as it currently stands and known social political views of the time (Ethnohistory)?" with answers ranging from totally "unreliable to the point you can't even show Jesus existed" (pure myth Christ Myth Theory) through "unreliable to the point they tell you nothing about the actual man" (100 BCE Christ Myth Theory to extreme minimalist position) to the "New Testament is total historical with ever detail exactly as it happened"--BruceGrubb (talk) 04:20, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- What is your source for that, Bruce? My recollection is quite different. The hisotians I have read (e.g. Vermes and Fredricksen) are not quite asking "how much of the NT is reliable" - a quantitative question. They say that the authors of the Gospels did not distinguish between theological and historical truth, as we do, and then they say that the Gospels like any other text is of historical value and the question is, what kind of historical value? How does one go about interpreting it? I think the historians' questions are more like, it is 100% historically valuable, but much of it tells us something about the beliefs of its authors rather than about Jesus and can we use any of it to tell us about Jesus? You can rephrase this as a quantitiative question about accuracy if you want but the point is that they are still not engaged in a debte about Jesus' existence. Of course the two questions are related in that there is no point in speculating about his life if you think he never existed. But I do not know any historians who ask:
- how much of the New Testament story is reliable and matches with historical data as it currently stands and known social political views of the time (Ethnohistory)?" with answers ranging from totally "unreliable to the point you can't even show Jesus existed"
- as you put it. Rather, they start with the assumption that Jesus existed, and reinterpret parts of the Gospel in light of what we know about the social and political views of the time. It is not simply a mater of matching, it is a matter of saying "everyont thinks passage x means one thing, but in fact it means something else. They are saying that popular interpretations of passages do not match what we know of 1st century Jewish life. And they will reinterpre3t a passage - this is more like "making the passage match." So it is not always so simple as you are presenting it.
- What is your source for that, Bruce? My recollection is quite different. The hisotians I have read (e.g. Vermes and Fredricksen) are not quite asking "how much of the NT is reliable" - a quantitative question. They say that the authors of the Gospels did not distinguish between theological and historical truth, as we do, and then they say that the Gospels like any other text is of historical value and the question is, what kind of historical value? How does one go about interpreting it? I think the historians' questions are more like, it is 100% historically valuable, but much of it tells us something about the beliefs of its authors rather than about Jesus and can we use any of it to tell us about Jesus? You can rephrase this as a quantitiative question about accuracy if you want but the point is that they are still not engaged in a debte about Jesus' existence. Of course the two questions are related in that there is no point in speculating about his life if you think he never existed. But I do not know any historians who ask:
- Actually the two questions are related. The quest for the historical Jesus basically asks "how much of the New Testament story is reliable and matches with historical data as it currently stands and known social political views of the time (Ethnohistory)?" with answers ranging from totally "unreliable to the point you can't even show Jesus existed" (pure myth Christ Myth Theory) through "unreliable to the point they tell you nothing about the actual man" (100 BCE Christ Myth Theory to extreme minimalist position) to the "New Testament is total historical with ever detail exactly as it happened"--BruceGrubb (talk) 04:20, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- It seems to me that we have articles addressing two different basic questions. Historicity of Jesus and Jesus myth theory address the question "Did Jesus exist?"; historical Jesus and quest for the historical Jesus address the question "What sort of chap was this Jesus fellow?". Even if one subscribes to one of the various "myth" views that BruceGrubb has elucidated, the second question is valid, in the sense that the question "What sort of chap was Santa Claus?" could be considered a valid question. If any merging occurs I think there would be value in keeping these rhetorical questions separate, i.e. merging Historicity of Jesus and Jesus myth theory into Existence of Jesus and subsuming quest for the historical Jesus into historical Jesus. PeaceLoveHarmony (talk) 03:30, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- For example, the idea that Jesus was resurrected (the apostles touch his flesh so he does not reappear as a spirit, he is resurrected) perfectly matches the views of the Pharisees. Now the fact that it matches does not mean it is historically accurate - you do not believe that Jesus was resurrected just because this belief in the NT matches Jewish belief of the time? What this shows is that Jesus being resurrected means that the source for the story thought like a Pharisee, that is all. Then there is Jesus casting out demons. Again, this matches with 1st century beliefs. It does not mean Jesus really cast out demons, just like many anthropologists do not believe that witchcraft is real and shamans can cure people of it. Yet this does not mean that Jesus didn't exist. To use your emic/etic distinction, etically he did not cast out demons, but emically he did. So here is a passage with a supernatural elment and historians can reject the supernatural element but consider it historically reliable. Then there is his being called the son of God. Again, this is entirely consistnt with Jewish belief at the time ... but what Jews mean by "on of God" is not what people (atheists as well as Christians) think it means.
- The historians who are involved in this line of investigation may think most of the NT needs to be reinterpreted, but they still assume Jesus existed. Your continuum of total disbelief to total belief is a theological continuum, it doesn't represent how historians argue among themselves. Peaceloveharmony is right. Slrubenstein | Talk 09:31, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- Another excellent point, where SLR once again highlights the need for clarification on "The Rules". To the average reader, the term "historically reliable" is normally interpreted along the lines of "it records something that did actually take place as described". SLR once again highlights the fact that "historians" do not necessarily use the same definition, but are inclined to accept something as historic if it merely reflects the kind of thing that people would have been prepared to believe at the time. It seems to me that this would make the Greek gods "historic figures" based on the fact that the ancient Greeks believed those gods really existed. If that is valid - and it seems to me that this is the implication - then perhaps Jesus is every bit as historic as Dionysus, and vice versa. Or am I misunderstanding?
- Once again I ask - which Rules should we follow here? If we are going to use "scholarly" definitions and terminology, then I think we should emphasise this in the lead section, by stating specifically in each of the articles that "the authors of the Gospels did not distinguish between theological and historical truth, as we do" and that "much of it tells us something about the beliefs of its authors rather than about Jesus". Wdford (talk) 11:23, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- As I said the one thing the whole Historicity of Jesus needs desperate is a thorough historical anthropological (ethohistorical) look at the time and no evidence of anything even remotely like that had been done. You have a few claims that "the Jews wouldn't have created a story like this" but as pointed out by Richard Carrier in his tongue in cheek "Did Jesus Even exist?" there are problems with that view when you apply it to the Romans because Acts has a lot of things that from a Roman standpoint make no sense.--BruceGrubb (talk) 14:15, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- "the whole Historicity of Jesus needs desperate is a thorough historical anthropological (ethohistorical) look at the time and no evidence of anything even remotely like that had been done." Can you clarify - do you mean done by Wikipedians, or done by historians? Based on the rest of your comment I infer you mean done by historians, and the rest of this comment is based on that reading. If I am misinterpreting you my apologies. You are engaging in OR, Bruce. When you publish a book or article in a peer-reviewed journal, we can put your views in the article. In the meantime, we have a professor at Boston University and a professor at Duke university and someone who before he died was a professor at Oxford University. We have a number of fine sources for a good Historical Jesus article. Right now, drawing on what has been written, it won't be much but let's face it, a lot of our history articles especially classical history and I'd say virtually all Jewish history articles are pretty bad, because we do not have many (or any) editors who have expertise in the historical research. But it is out there, and some of it is in here, and that should be an article, regardless of your personal beliefs. As for wikipedians providing a historical look at the time, yes, it has been done, in Cultural and historical background of Jesus. That article was written before we had a clear citation policy so it is not well-referenced. But the bibliography includes a good number of reliable sources. Slrubenstein | Talk 09:56, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- As I said the one thing the whole Historicity of Jesus needs desperate is a thorough historical anthropological (ethohistorical) look at the time and no evidence of anything even remotely like that had been done. You have a few claims that "the Jews wouldn't have created a story like this" but as pointed out by Richard Carrier in his tongue in cheek "Did Jesus Even exist?" there are problems with that view when you apply it to the Romans because Acts has a lot of things that from a Roman standpoint make no sense.--BruceGrubb (talk) 14:15, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- Actually my comment is based on the situation I found in 1992 when I did research for a paper called "Historical Archaeology at the Point of Contact: The Disease Issue" in one of my master level courses at New Mexico State University. In my research I found that Ethnohistory had been effectively out to lunch regarding handling of historical documents regarding Native American peoples. Simply little details like the nature of diseases changing over time or total inexperience with the effects of such diseases on "virgin" populations was being missed again and again despite the point being raised by Schuyler in a 1977 paper. In fact of all the sources I had at that time only Schlesier took that the data was telling him and plugged the documents back into the world view he was seeing both archeologically and historically.
- Sclesier, Karl H. (1976) "Epidemics and Indian Middlemen: Rethinking the Wars of the Iroquois, 1609-1653" Ethnohistory 23(2) pg 129-145
- Schuyler, Robert L. (1977) "The Spoken Word, the Written Word, Observed and Preserved Behavior, the Contexts Available to the Archaeologist" in Historical Archaeology: A Guide to Substantive and Theoretical Contributions Vol 10, No. 2 pg 347-360
- Other than Carrier there doesn't seem to be much effort to reevaluate the New Testament story on what we know about the culture of that time. Sources that from an Ethnohistoral standpoint would seem to be useless regarding Jesus being a flesh and blood person such Thallus, Suetonius, and Pliny the Younger are trotted out so often one is reminded of the joke line in Casablanca: "round up the usual suspects". It is nearly a bad joke at this point and you don't need to have a degree to see these three sources have obvious problems.--BruceGrubb (talk) 15:29, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- Then you obviously have not read the latest work by historians, or the works I have repeatedly cited.
- We are not talking about Native Americans. I fail to see how your MA thesis on Native Americans has anything to do with 1st century Jewish history. Or are you trying to convince me that ye, you do wish to violate NOR?
- I never mentioned Suetonius or Pliny the Younger and the historians I have cited do not rely on them either. I mentioned three sources by affiliation, and named two of them, and you are saying my sources are a joke??? Are you joking, or are you really trying to insult m? Do you want me to just say "screw you", if you refuse to assume good faith on my part? If you refuse to respond to what I wrote, how can we have a good faith conversation? Do you want me to just start ignoring you? Slrubenstein | Talk 17:01, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
I agree with Slrubenstein. A little good faith would be helpful! - Ret.Prof (talk) 17:25, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
First merge
I've merged the Quest for the historical Jesus in here. It's full of OR and very wordy, so it will have to be tightened considerably, but at least that's one fewer for now. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 06:59, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
- I don't know yet, Wd. We'll have to read it through in the context of this article, remove any repetition, and check the sources to remove any OR. It's a fair bit of work. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 08:06, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
- As an old saying says a journey of a 1,000 miles begins with a single step.--BruceGrubb (talk) 18:34, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
- I know I've been avoiding this page, and not that active on Wikipedia lately, but... seems to me Quest for the historical Jesus is an attempt to discuss the various movements and trends in history during the past 150 years in regards to historical Jesus research. It's basically "a history of scholarly trends in historical Jesus research". Therefore, it seems to me, if it was to be merged, it would work better in the historical Jesus article as a "background" or "history" section. I can't think of one reason why it would work better in this article... but I'm probably not wearing my thinking cap ;) So what's the dealy? -Andrew c [talk] 00:51, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
- Browsing the above, it appears Akhilleus and PeaceLove both suggested the quest article go to HJ, not here... -Andrew c [talk] 00:53, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, that's where the quest material belongs. The primary concern of the quest is not historicity as this article describes it (i.e. as the mere historical existence of Jesus), so placing this material here gives the reader an inaccurate idea of what these writers were doing, whereas locating this material in historical Jesus presents no problem. --Akhilleus (talk) 01:13, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
- And historical Jesus is already at 103K, otherwise I would have just moved the quest material from this article there. I really don't see why we shouldn't maintain Quest for the historical Jesus as a separate article, there's no shortage of material on which to base a good article on the history of scholarship in this field. --Akhilleus (talk) 01:21, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
- Browsing the above, it appears Akhilleus and PeaceLove both suggested the quest article go to HJ, not here... -Andrew c [talk] 00:53, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
- I don't think I quite understand your last comment. There is no shortage of stuff written on the historical Jesus, and there is no shortage of material written about scholarship on the historical Jesus. If you think they're different topics, then that would suggest that Quest for the historical Jesus should be maintained as a separate article... --Akhilleus (talk) 01:33, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
- During the merger discussions, it was clear that some material from "Quest...." would be relevant here, and some in the "Historical Jesus" article. I think things would become clearer as we get to work on the material from "Quest..."-Civilizededucationtalk 02:11, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
- What part of the Quest material do you think is relevant here? --Akhilleus (talk) 02:22, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
- Folks, let's complete the merge and clean up the overlap and repetition first. Once that is done properly, we can carefully consider the need for a spin-off article, and possibly recreate the Quest article - but this time in a more focused and non-overlapping manner. Much of the Historical Jesus article probably does belong here also, and the Historical Jesus article should probably just be a summary of the Jesus-related gospel material, with caveats about the historicity of the source material and a reference to this article for that detail. Wdford (talk) 08:42, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
- I agree; let's not allow the perfect to be the enemy of the good. What we need first of all is a structure, then we can start to focus on which parts of the structure the content is best directed towards. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 08:54, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
- I don't agree with this at all. If the purpose of these initial merges is to create a working structure, it's important to create a strong and accurate structure, and this merge hasn't done it. You've taken an article that is about reconstructing what the historical Jesus was like and shoved it into an article that ostensibly covers whether he existed at all. As many comments on this page have indicated, these are two different conversations. This is creating a muddle, not clarifying things. --Akhilleus (talk) 17:41, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
- Much of the Historical Jesus article probably does belong here also, and the Historical Jesus article should probably just be a summary of the Jesus-related gospel material
- I think we are getting ahead of ourselves. I don't agree to that at all, and it isn't clear to me that there is consensus for such a bold change. Why start all this merging junk, when we aren't even on the same page yet. Maybe this is something someone should work up in a sandbox, instead of merging entire unrelated articles into other articles, with the intention of trimming all the unrelated content (and maybe salvaging all the trimmed stuff elsewhere? that isn't even clear at this point). Seems quite destructive. If you are trying to figure out what best fits here, work it out in a sandbox, or just move the relevant content. It seems absurd to move an entire article with the knowledge that most of it isn't going to end up here in the end.-Andrew c [talk] 15:33, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
Andrew c, why fret so much? We have it all in the article history. It's not gone anywhere. There can be many other ways of merging too. Let's see what happens before we decide if it's good or not. The proposal for bringing stuff from the Historical Jesus article looks good. I too think some of it belongs here. Why do you jump to conclusions even before you have seen the details of the proposal?-Civilizededucationtalk 17:04, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
- Andrew, look at the Historical Jesus article and see how long are some of the discussions, about content that has its own daughter article already. Do a wikisearch for "Jesus", and you get 41600 hits. Some of them are for towns and films and universities, but see how many articles there already are that cover this very same material over and over again. Repeating the same material endlessly does not make for quality articles, it actually forces readers to wade through the same old stuff over and over and obscures the content that they might be looking for. A clean-up is long overdue. We need an agreement on the reason for existence of this article, and the reason for existence of the Historical Jesus article, and then we need to split the huge mass of content between them. If some stuff belongs elsewhere then it must move over there to where it belongs. We already have articles that deal with the "religious" aspects of Jesus - we don't need to repeat that material either. The blue-link system is massively powerful - let's not waste that opportunity to create user-friendly articles. Wdford (talk) 17:21, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
- A clean-up that makes things more confusing is no clean up at all. --Akhilleus (talk) 17:41, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
- I don't see how things can be more confusing then they are already. The Jesus article bloat has become akin Old McDonald's Farm: article on Jesus here, article on Jesus there, everywhere an article on Jesus. This had gotten totally out of hand and some cleaning up to straighten up the mess is needed.--BruceGrubb (talk) 19:47, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
Gospels Section
This section currently provides very little information about our topic. It is mostly about the background of the Gospels; the material is almost certainly present in other articles, in greater depth. Like most parts of most Jesus articles, it also states as fact what should be opinion, and conceals potential bias. For example: "The reason for composition of the gospels is given in the scriptural material itself, as being due to the death of a number of eyewitnesses to the events described, and the need to combat alternative versions of the events which were emerging." This factual statement is sourced to: Paul Barnett (2002). Jesus & the Rise of Early Christianity: A History of New Testament Times. InterVarsity Press. Paul Barnett (bishop): "Paul Barnett is an ancient historian, New Testament scholar and was the Anglican Bishop of North Sydney from 1990 to 2001." InterVarsity Press mission statement: "As an extension of InterVarsity Christian Fellowship/USA, InterVarsity Press serves those in the university, the church and the world by publishing resources that equip and encourage people to follow Jesus as Savior and Lord in all of Life."[17] Again, if you can't source the article primarily to mainstream scholars, then don't tell the reader there is a consensus among mainstream scholars.
The first step should be to remove most of the material that really only belongs in an article on the Gospels, and replace it with discussion directly related to the Gospels' value in studying Jesus. As we do that, we should keep an eye on the balance and neutrality of the sourcing. Noloop (talk) 16:02, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
- I have taken a look at the Gospels section and agree that much of it is unrelated to this article. This article only needs to discuss the reliability, necessity of the Gospel material for obtaining a Historical Jesus.-Civilizededucationtalk 10:23, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
Second Merge
It seems to me that the section Jesus#Historical views in the main Jesus article heavily overlaps with this article. Should we not move most of that material here also, thereby much simplifying that long article and eliminating even more unnecessary duplication and overlap? Wdford (talk) 11:46, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
- I think the main Jesus article needs more historical information, not less. ha. We should avoid overlap to an extent, but should also be mindful of summary style. I guess we should focus on making sure the parent summary article doesn't contain more detail and content than the spin out articles. And we should make sure they are on the same page, so that if they read the main parent article they get the same impression as when they read the more detailed spinouts. I guess I'm more concerned with having good content, and then consistency across the board, then trying to reduce and simplify. I'm concerned in the main Jesus article, if we don't have a sizeable section, with good content concerning the scholarly/historical view, then the article will be overwhelmed with religious views and the summary text of the gospel stories (another type of religious view, in a sense). Sure Jesus is first and foremost a religious figure, and I'm not trying to separate that out, but I am concerned with what the main article would look like with less historical content. -Andrew c [talk] 15:29, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
- I'm with you on most of this Andrew, but I think the solution is to strip out the detail of the historicity content (leaving just a few lines in summary) into the Historicity of Jesus article, and move the "religious" material (leaving just a few lines in summary) into the various appropriate daughter articles, bearing in mind that every aspect of Jesus' life has its own article already, and every Bible verse just about has its own article too. It seems ridiculous to me that the Jesus#Historical views in the main Jesus article is currently 3689 words long on its own - a 100 word summary would surely be more appropriate, with a link to this article for the detail. Don't you think? Wdford (talk) 17:10, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
- There is lots of other valuable material in the 131k Jesus article that would stay there. But in the many aspects where hugely detailed daughter articles already exist, is it not ridiculous to duplicate the material over and over again "just because"? Surely in such cases the best practice is to present just a few lines of summary, and a blue-link to the Main Article/s on that topic? Wdford (talk) 17:42, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
- If the subject is complex, a few lines will not accurately summarize the daughter article. The summary at Jesus#Historical views can probably be condensed somewhat, but it will still need to be lengthy since historical Jesus covers a lot of territory. --Akhilleus (talk) 17:50, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
- Historical Jesus covers a lot more territory than is really necessary - much of it is already duplicated elsewhere. If Historical Jesus was cleaned up, then the summary of Historical Jesus in the Jesus article would also be much slimmer. The benefits of this exercise are endless !! Wdford (talk) 18:32, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
- I'm interested to hear what material you think is unnecessary in historical Jesus, because I'm not seeing a lot that is obvious (although the "History of Historical Jesus research" and "Quest for the historical Jesus" sections should be combined). It's a complicated subject, and since there is so much diversity in people's reconstructions of Jesus', the article needs to cover many different points of view. --Akhilleus (talk) 18:41, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
Re the article Historical Jesus, in my opinion:
- “Quest for the historical Jesus” already exists in detail elsewhere, and this section should be summarized further;
- “Summary of reconstructions of the life of Jesus” is OK, but this is duplicated lower down;
- “Jesus and John the Baptist” is a bit long, considering the topic has its own detailed article;
- “Ministry and teachings” is way too long, considering the topic has its own detailed article;
- “Disciples” is ridiculously long, considering the topic has its own detailed article;
- The article then repeats (yet again) a lot of detail on the entry to Jerusalem, the crucifixion etc etc etc – this material already stands in the Jesus article, and in innumerable daughter articles and elsewhere.
I feel that these sections can be trimmed down a lot by eliminating unnecessary duplication, and by summarising necessary duplication a lot more tightly, without removing anything of value that is not readily available at the click of a blue-link. Wdford (talk) 19:02, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
- I agree that elimination of duplication is needed. Perhaps once that is done the amounts left will be able to tell if the articles need to be merged.--BruceGrubb (talk) 19:42, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
Source abuse
Ignoring we had a RfC on this exact topic, PeaceLove's changes (which I just reverted) simply distort what our sources are saying. We quote our source specifically. Stanton says "Today nearly all historians, whether Christians or not..." I don't know how it could be any more clearer. How could anyone read that statement and conclude "only Christians fall under this category". As for the second change, is it necessary? My concern there isn't the religious background of sources 14 and 15, but instead, how those sources relate to the sentence at all. The grammar is a bit weird, "much reliable historical information" is vague and weaselly. I think that sentence does need work or better sourcing for sure. But I really don't get the "devout Christian" addition. I mean, how can you even tell something like that? -Andrew c [talk] 01:17, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
- The statement about consensus is problematic in many ways. It is putting words into the mouths of other scholars who have said nothing. How can we allow this? Is the source the president of "all scholar" union? Did he conduct a survey of "all scholars"? Did he even notify "all scholars" that he is making a statement on their behalf? And who is meant by "all scholars"? There may even be scholars who have nothing to do with Jesus and Christianity and do not even know that someone is making statements on their behalf. I have described my opposition to keeping such statements in the article in another thread. Such statements are of trivial value.-Civilizededucationtalk 02:04, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
- Andrew c, why can't you discuss things before you jump to conclusions and just revert?-Civilizededucationtalk 02:14, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
- Andrew has objected to two passages, restored by Civilizededucation in this edit. First, "While scholars draw a distinction between the Jesus of history and the figure of religious faith, the vast majority of scholars who specialize in the historicity of Jesus are Christians who believe his existence as a historical figure can be established using documentary and other evidence..." The references cited for this material is Graham Stanton, who does not say that the "vast majority", or even "most scholars", who study the historical Jesus are Christians. He says "Today nearly all historians, whether Christians or not, accept that Jesus existed and that the gospels contain plenty of valuable evidence which has to be weighed and assessed critically." The article needs to reflect what Stanton actually says, instead of citing him for something he doesn't say.
- The second passage Andrew objected to is in the "Gospels" section: "Devout Christian scholars may assert that mainstream historians consider the synoptic gospels to contain much reliable historical information about Jesus as a Galilean teacher..." The sources cited are Robert Van Voorst and William Weaver. These sources don't say that "devout Christian scholars may assert" anything. Both make statements about what scholars say. Neither, as far as I'm aware, characterize other scholars as "devout Christians", nor do they characterize themselves as "devout Christians". So it's unclear to me why any editor would think this material is an accurate representation of what the sources say. I will, therefore, revert.
- If someone wants to argue that the text accurately represents Stanton, Van Voorst, and Weaver, please do so. But do so on the basis of what those sources actually say. --Akhilleus (talk) 03:35, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
- The point is that all three of the sources are devout Christians who are asserting their opinion regarding the mainstream view. It does not take much of a Google search on these individuals to figure out that they are devout Christians, and we are doing a disservice to the reader not to alert them to this fact. If this was a Mormon asserting that the Book of Mormon was historical, then we would also want to make the reader aware of this information. Given the quality of the sources, this is the most accurate statement that can be made in compliance with WP:NPOV. The sources are making statements of opinion, not fact, and we are telling the reader information about the sources that helps the reader evaluate their opinions. -PeaceLoveHarmony (talk) 03:44, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
- How do you know that they're "devout Christians"? What does this phrase even mean? When you use an evaluative word like "devout", I can only think we're getting an opinion, not a fact—and in this case, the opinion comes from a Wikipedia editor, not a reliable source. And, you know, our sourcing policies tell us that we give considerable deference to opinions contained in reliable sources. Scholars like Stanton, Van Voorst, and Weaver are in good positions to make authoritative statements about not only their (well-informed) opinions about their subject matter, but the balance of opinion in their academic fields...and if they're off-base, it should be no problem to find other reliable sources that disagree with what they say. --Akhilleus (talk) 03:53, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
- I find going around in circles on the talk page fairly dull, so I've posted this at WP:NPOVN to get outside input. --Akhilleus (talk) 04:30, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
- We should identify the religion of a source when the religion of the source is an issue. Akhilleus is right, what we have here is the same disruptive edits we had a month or two ago. We need to represent accurtately what sources say. It is simply unacceptable for a Wikipedian to put words in the mouth of a source - it is a clear violation of WP:V and WP:NOR; edits that violate these core content policies should be reverted on sight.
- CivilizedEducation, PeaceLoveHarmony, and Noloop are implying that the views represented are specifically Christian views. We need reliable evidence of this. Do the authors say that they are expressing or writing about the Christian viewpoint? They usually do so, you know. Or do we have reliable secondary sources that identify these particular books as expressing a Christian point of view? PeaceLoveHarmoney seems to consider googling "research." It is not. Please find reliable secondary sources - for example, other historians writing about 1st century Judea or the Galilee - who identify these works as expressing a specifically Christian view. That would be a verifiable source we could use. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:57, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
Noloop: the RfC concerned identifying sources as ordained ministers or similar, not as "devout Christians." And that's only one of the issues here: the more obvious problem is that the version that PeaceLoveHarmony, Civilizededucation, and you support uses Stanton, Van Voorst, and Weaver as sources for something that they don't say. As SLR says, it's unacceptable for editors to put words in the sources' mouths. --Akhilleus (talk) 18:18, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
- What are you talking about? I reverted to your version. I criticized the word "devout". The wording of tyhe RFC was "the source is an ordained minister or similar." Stanton is similar. Are you going to edit war over the meaning of "similar" now? Hardyplants has now decided to turn it into an edit war, by shoving the text into the article without consensus with the dishonest rationale that what matters isn't consensus but just whether it's referenced. Noloop (talk) 18:33, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
- Noloop, I see you didn't revert me, so I've just struck part of my comment above. But I don't think that Stanton's being a Christian, whether devout or not, makes him similar to an ordained minister, so you're going to have to help me out on that one. --Akhilleus (talk) 18:56, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
- Hmm, this problem is much more widespread than I had realised. I encountered another example at Book of Joshua today. Should we try to solve this problem on one page first and then try to spread it to others or should we escalate the whole issue? Martijn Meijering (talk) 18:40, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
- Problems with the Book of Joshua should be addressed at that article. If you're trying to address a project-wide concern about statements of academic consensus, that should be addressed on a policy page. --Akhilleus (talk) 18:56, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
- Yeah, I meant a project-wide concern. What do you think, should we continue to meet like this or should we start a fundamental discussion? What policy page would be appropriate if we chose to do the latter? Martijn Meijering (talk) 18:59, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
- Problems with the Book of Joshua should be addressed at that article. If you're trying to address a project-wide concern about statements of academic consensus, that should be addressed on a policy page. --Akhilleus (talk) 18:56, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
- I agree that use of the word "devout" could be problematic. I do see it used in other Wikipedia articles (try searching for "devout Christian" for examples) but unless individuals characterized themselves in that way, it becomes a subjective judgment. I would argue that Graham Stanton was a devout Christian, based on the fact that he delivered sermons expressing his beliefs, as can be seen from this selection of quotes:"This scholarly interest relates to his own Christian faith - Graham believed that 'in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus, God disclosed his purposes for his creation' (Gospel Truth?, 192); he believed (echoing 2 Cor 5) 'that in (or through) Christ crucified, God was reconciling the world to himself, no longer holding people's misdeeds against them. God has taken an initiative in love, forgiven our sins, reconciled us to himself, and thus transformed our lives. ' (500th anniversary sermon - notable for the appeal to P46 at 2 Cor 5.19!)"[18]
- By the way, this is not a discussion about whether the sources are reliable, per se, but rather a discussion about whether the sources' statements should be treated as statements of opinion or statements of fact, and whether or not we should let the reader know the sources are Christians. All three quotes are examples of Christians who are making statements about the mainstream scholarly consensus. (Please see Civilizededucation's response above for an excellent summary of why these statements are problematic.) These are statements of opinion, and should be presented as such, and they are representative of the kinds of statements that are made by the majority of Christian scholars, as has been well-documented by the FAQ quote list that Bill the Cat has popularized on the Jesus Myth Theory talk page. If Bill the Cat's FAQ quote list is a fair representation, then the statement "the vast majority of scholars who specialize in the historicity of Jesus are Christians who believe his existence as a historical figure can be established using documentary and other evidence" is accurate, since over 90% of those sources are Christian and/or were educated at Christian institutions.
- Similarly the statement, "Christian scholars may assert that mainstream historians consider the synoptic gospels to contain much reliable historical information about Jesus as a Galilean teacher", is supported by the sources that have been provided, as they are two examples of this opinion being asserted by Christians. -PeaceLoveHarmony (talk) 19:20, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
- So you have done an informal survey of sources that a Wikipedia editor has compiled, and concluded that roughly 90% are Christians, so therefore we can add that "fact" to a sentence based on your original research? Is that what you just said above, or am I missing something? (not to mention that your change made it seems like it was Stanton making the claim, not the Wikipedia editor PeaceLoveHarmony, ignoring the fact that we can't use your informal survey of another Wikipedia's sources as a citation in the first place). You claim that "Christian scholars may assert" such and such, but from what I gather from our quotations in the footnotes, these scholars are not even making that assertion. As I stated in the OP, this sentence is problematic because it isn't clear how it is even derived from the sources, or what "much reliable historical information" means. I think we should get our phrasing an sources together first, before accusing the sources of bias for something they never claimed in the first place! -Andrew c [talk] 19:34, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
- Actually, the statements about academic consensus from this field should not be used at all. They are worthless.-Civilizededucationtalk 00:47, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
The latest edit war
I have some concerns regarding this material:
"Historians subject the gospels to critical analysis, attempting to differentiate authentic, reliable information from what they judge to be inventions, exaggerations, and alterations.
Which historians? Who? What? Where? When?
"Many prominent mainstream historians consider the synoptic gospels to contain much reliable historical information about the historical Jesus as a Galilean teacher [1][2]
This is misleading, as many historians also consider the Gospels to lack reliable historical information of the historical Jesus (as is noted later). Also, "many" and "prominent" are weasel and POV words. Both the sources are overtly Christian, as Bruce pointed out above. The main conclusion I can draw about sources for this topic is that most "prominent mainstream historians" don't consider the question at all.
"The baptism of Jesus, his preaching, and the crucifixion of Jesus, are generally deemed to be historically authentic, while the two accounts of the nativity of Jesus, as well as certain details about the crucifixion and the resurrection, are generally deemed to be non-authentic.
Again, "generally deemed" is a bit weasely, and there is a ton of overtly religious sourcing in the references. Noloop (talk) 04:01, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
- I don't see it as an edit war. It's on the talk page now. I don't see sourcing problems in exactly the same way that you do. Will be back later with a more substantive response.-Civilizededucationtalk 06:03, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
Paul B (talk) 08:57, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
- Actually I do see sourcing problems the way that you do. Only difference is that I see more problems. I think that cherry picking and misrepresentation are also massive problems and they have made this article totally Christian POV. I intend to pursue the cherry picking and misrepresentation problems first. Most issues are being discussed in a vague,one sided way. There are other/more complete views on them. If we can find other/clearer views and correct the misrepresentations, that should help a great deal in making the article neutral. The current edits are a step in that direction. That is why I support them.-Civilizededucationtalk 05:41, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
Misrepresenting what sources say
The sentence:
Because we do not have any surviving sources written by Jesus himself or by anyone who knew him personally,
is unsupported by the sources. The quote provided says no such thing.
White, L. Michael. From Jesus to Christianity. HarperCollins, 2004, pp. 3–4: "This is one of the problems with the story. We have no writings from the days of Jesus himself. Jesus never wrote anything, nor do we have any contemporary accounts of his life or death. There are no court records, official diaries, or newspaper accounts that might provide firsthand information. Nor are there any eyewitnesses whose reports were preserved unvarnished. Even though they may contain earlier sources or oral traditions, all the Gospels come from later times. Discerning which material is early and which is late becomes an important task. In fact, the earliest writings that survive are the genuine letters of Paul. They were written some twenty to thirty years after the death of Jesus. Yet Paul was not a follower of Jesus during his lifetime; nor does he ever claim to have seen Jesus during his ministry." Flash 14:46, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
- You've been told before, by editors on both sides, that no contemporaneous sources means that no one knew who knew him or had any kind of contact with him wrote about him. There is no dispute about that, so please stop trying to make an issue out of it. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 16:20, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
- Well whoever told him that before was wrong. It's simply false to say that "no contemporaneous sources means that no one knew who knew him or had any kind of contact with him wrote about him." There are many sources which take the view that some of the content of gospels and epistles does indeed derive from people who knew him, and even may have been written, at least in part, by witnesses. We simply do not know. The source quoted says "Nor are there any eyewitnesses whose reports were preserved unvarnished". It does not say there are no eyewitness reports. It says that are no "unvarnished" ones. It's like saying there are no surviving paintings by an artist which have not been retouched. That is not at all the same as saying there are no paintings by the artist. Paul B (talk) 16:40, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
- The source is L. Michael White, From Jesus to Christianity. HarperCollins, 2004, pp. 3–4
This is one of the problems with the story. We have no writings from the days of Jesus himself. Jesus never wrote anything, nor do we have any contemporary accounts of his life or death. There are no court records, official diaries, or newspaper accounts that might provide firsthand information. Nor are there any eyewitnesses whose reports were preserved unvarnished. Even though they may contain earlier sources or oral traditions, all the Gospels come from later times. Discerning which material is early and which is late becomes an important task. In fact, the earliest writings that survive are the genuine letters of Paul. They were written some twenty to thirty years after the death of Jesus. Yet Paul was not a follower of Jesus during his lifetime; nor does he ever claim to have seen Jesus during his ministry.
- Please quote a senior, mainstream academic source here who contradicts what he says, who specifically and clearly, in non-religious language, talks about the existence of a firsthand eyewitness account, unvarnished or otherwise. No editors' opinions, please, just one clear quote from a good source. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 16:51, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
- Did you even read what I said? I have already quoted his exact words, so there is no point in repeating them to me. I was quoting them to demonstrate that you had inaccurately glossed them with your own statement: "no contemporaneous sources means that no one knew who knew him or had any kind of contact with him wrote about him." Please reply to what is actually being argued. The very words you quote say that the surviving Gospels may "may contain earlier sources" - that is actual text from witnesses. That entirely consistent with what I said above, viz that many sources believe that "some of the content of gospels and epistles does indeed derive from people who knew him, and even may have been written, at least in part, by witnesses" Also, White refers to the gospels. For example, there is a widespread (admittedly far from universal) view that 1 Peter was actually written by Peter. Paul B (talk) 16:54, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
- 'May contain earlier sources' does not mean they had writings from the time of jesus. It means they had writings from some unspecified source previous. You dont know when its from or who wrote it because, well, its only a hypothesis. When you have text, let us know. -- ۩ Mask 20:46, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
- He does say that. He says it very clearly. But rather than focusing on White, could you please do as I asked and produce one good source who says there are extant contemporaneous sources? Please, no more personal opinions about what words mean, and about how later sources might have used earlier ones. Please just produce one senior mainstream academic source that backs you up. Discussing our own opinions makes article development impossible. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 21:14, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
- He does not say that at all. I have explained why very clearly. If you are asking for a letter or document proven to have been written in his lifetime you are creating a straw man. You know perfectly well that no scholar claims that any such document exists, so the question is sheer evasion. It's not even a question of what scholars believe. Even rabid fundamentalists don't claim that. It's utterly beside the point. The "true believers" always held that gospels and epistles were written after his death, but they claimed that they were written by his disciples or their own immediate followers. White does not even deny that. He says "Nor are there any eyewitnesses whose reports were preserved unvarnished". In other words there may be eyewitness reports, but ones that have been "varnished" over time (hence my painting analogy). Paul B (talk) 21:24, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
- The current version isn't good: "never wrote anything, and because we have no writings from the days of Jesus himself," We have many writings from the days of Jesus. We have no accounts of Jesus from the days of Jesus. In other words, no contemporaneous accounts. Noloop (talk) 18:16, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
- Paul, every historical source contains a trace of some previous source. The point here is that, if anyone knew Jesus, they did not write anything down in any form that survived. That is what it means to say there are no extant contemporaneous sources. What is known about Jesus is hearsay about hearsay, and there is no dispute about that point that I know of.
- This talk page should only be used to discuss the merits of what named sources say, with a view to deciding whether to include them. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 18:47, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
- "Paul, every historical source contains a trace of some previous source." That is yet another wholly false statement. Historical sources can be primary, in which case they do not contain traces of other sources. Or they can be invented, in which case threy also dont. What historians try to do is to sort out the reliable from the unreliable and from the fantastical. It's not easy, and always provisional, but that's exactly the process White - and all non-fundamentalist writers on the NT - is taking about. White does not and never asserts that "no one knew who knew him or had any kind of contact with him wrote about him." There are many writers who believe that gospels and epistles contain material originally written down (directly or through scribes) by people who knew Jesus. Paul B (talk) 21:18, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
- Your proposed wording isn't even in the source. The sources say no contemporaneous sources. You're taking the wording in the source and turning it into something completely different. Stick to what the sources say. Flash 19:05, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
- You are writing as though you don't know what "no contemporaneous sources" means. And my lead used those precise words, so I don't know who your comment is directed at. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 19:10, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
- Are you not proposing to include the clause "Jesus did not write anything, nor did anyone with any personal knowledge of him"?. That is not in the source. Flash 19:12, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
- It is. The source says no contemporaneous sources. That, by definition, means not him, and no one who was there. You're being tendentious.-- ۩ Mask 20:43, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
- It is not what he says at all. It means there are no actual surviving documents from his day. That does not mean no-one wrote about him. There are many lost sources that are quoted in surviving sources from the ancient world. We don't conclude that Manetho never wrote anything because we only have references to his writings. Paul B (talk) 21:27, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
- It is. The source says no contemporaneous sources. That, by definition, means not him, and no one who was there. You're being tendentious.-- ۩ Mask 20:43, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
- Are you not proposing to include the clause "Jesus did not write anything, nor did anyone with any personal knowledge of him"?. That is not in the source. Flash 19:12, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
Actually, the source (White) says: "We have no writings from the days of Jesus himself. Jesus never wrote anything." Why was this wording reverted, in favour of the word "contemporaneous", which does not appear in the source at all. Why this obsession with avoiding the use of plain English? Wdford (talk) 19:31, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
- The source says, quoting now, "Jesus never wrote anything, nor do we have any contemporary accounts of his life or death". We changed tense on contemporary, but thats cosmetic. It is very much in the source. -- ۩ Mask 20:50, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
- "Contemporaneous" is the correct word; using the correct word is using plain English (the source uses an incorrect but oft-confused term). "Contemporary" means "modern" or "present day" (there are thousands of contemporary accounts of the life of Jesus); "contemporaneous" means "co-existing with". I've added two more sources, and it easy to find many more on this point. Noloop (talk) 20:53, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
- Actually the two words are synonyms. The usage of "contemporary" you cite above is definition #4 in the OED, after all the definitions that are synonymous with the various definitions of "contemporaneous". Usually when a word or phrase is used by scholars in peer reviewed publications or books published by respected publishing houses in a manner your gut (or your brain) tells you is incorrect the reality is that your gut is in the wrong. It is helpful in these situations to use a dictionary before blundering into argument. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 01:12, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
It would be good to avoid using the word "contemporaneous". Editors, and presumably readers, disagree about its denotation and connotation. "No surviving documents from his lifetime" is good phrasing. --Akhilleus (talk) 05:29, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
- Who disagrees with its denotation and connotation? SlimVirgin talk|contribs 15:26, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
- The correct term here is contemporaneous, and as we're not writing for children I agree that there's no reason not to use it. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 15:26, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
- Slim, I don't mean to quibble here but "contemporary" is also correct. If you don't believe me consult the OED. Since the terms are synonyms in this usage and contemporary has other modern usages as well "contemporaneous" may be better, but it is no more correct. The source, quite correctly uses "contemporary". Can we stop saying it's wrong. Thanks and cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 15:33, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
- Contemporary isn't correct in this context, G. No contemporary sources = no sources today write about Jesus. No contemporaneous sources = no sources during Jesus's day wrote about him (or if they did none exist).
- It's true that some people get the two mixed up, but Wikipedia shouldn't join the ranks of those who use words imprecisely. :) SlimVirgin talk|contribs 15:47, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
- You are not listening. I said please consult the Oxford English Dictionary for a reason. Here is what you would have found for "contemporary":
- 1. a. Belonging to the same time, age, or period; living, existing, or occurring together in time.
- 2. Having existed or lived from the same date, equal in age, coeval.
- 3. Occurring at the same moment of time, or during the same period; occupying the same definite period; contemporaneous, simultaneous.
- 4. a. Modern; of or characteristic of the present period; esp. up-to-date, ultra-modern; spec. designating art of a markedly avant-garde quality, or furniture, building, decoration, etc., having modern characteristics (opp. PERIOD n. 15).
- The fourth definition is itself modern, with the first three being much older. As I said, I agree that "contemporaneous", which does not have this fourth definition, is clearer because of it. However, for the last time, please stop incorrectly correcting people about this. You will find plenty of writers still using the traditional meaning of the adjective "contemporary" and they are absolutely not getting "the two mixed up". Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 16:05, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
- You are not listening. I said please consult the Oxford English Dictionary for a reason. Here is what you would have found for "contemporary":
We CANNOT say that we know for a fact that no one who knew Jesus never wrote anything. It's trying to prove a negative. On top of that, the cited source says just the opposite, or at least implies that there WERE eyewitness accounts, but they were varnished over the years. It is entirely possible that someone who knew Jesus wrote something. The fact of the matter is, we don't have any surviving documents that fit the bill, but that doesn't mean that they didn't exist at one point in time. And let's not ignore the POV that some conservative scholars hold: that the gospels WERE written by eyewitnesses or friends of eyewitnesses. I'm sure if you look not that hard, you will find a scholar defending the idea that the apostle Matthew and the apostle John wrote the gospels that bear their name. I don't see why some editors are comfortable ignoring some minority POVs, such as this, but then go on and on about how we have to include other minority POVs (JM). Can't have it both ways, IMO. Say that most scholars don't think any surviving accounts were written directly by eyewitnesses. Don't say that eyewitnesses never wrote anything ever (as that is entirely impossible to prove, AND more importantly, NOT what the source is saying at all). -Andrew c [talk] 17:19, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
- There are no extent contemporaneous sources. That means no one from his lifetime wrote anything about him that survived. We are trying to re-invent language here by pretending not to know what ordinary words mean. Now I have to read the OED to find out how to write in English? Come on, please, let's start focusing on sources and how to improve this article, and stop fiddling with the lead.
- Andrew, please, produce sources. Don't tell us they exist. Produce them. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 17:43, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
- Slim maybe you missed this, but the source itself uses the adjective "contemporary" and it uses it in its original meaning ... the one that is synonymous with "contemporaneous". I agree, once again that the latter term is clearer because it lacks the other, now common usage of "contemporary". However, if the context is presented correctly there is absolutely nothing wrong with using "contemporary" to mean what, ah hem, it actually means (see above). Both terms require a clear point of reference, btw. Unless we know what something is contemporary, or contemporaneous with neither term correctly identifies the era in question. To go around saying that "contemporary" is the wrong word, or that it doesn't mean what the OED clearly says it does seems foolish to me. I'm all for improving clarity, but please don't make false claims about the English language on the talk page. That's all I'm asking.Griswaldo (talk) 18:52, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
- I agree completely with the first two sentences above. "Extent" and "that survived" are the key words there. What we have in the article now is "Jesus did not write anything, nor did anyone with personal knowledge of him". This IS saying "No one with personal knowledge of him wrote anything". To me there is a BIG difference between the two. Saying none survived vs. none ever existed in the first place. One is fairly knowable, where one is unknowable. I'm not arguing semantics here. The way it is phrased currently, we are telling our readers that No one with personal knowledge of Jesus wrote anything, and attributing it to a source which is not saying that. A simple rephrasing can probably fix this (I'd propose simply deleting the clause between the em dashes). I'm totally fine ignoring minority views in the lead, so I won't pursue the view that the apostles wrote the gospels further (other editors may). But this also applies to past efforts to add those who question Q into the lead, and so on. Just sayin' ;) -Andrew c [talk] 18:02, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
- I don't see the point of adding personal opinions here, Andrew. There's no chance of fixing this article up unless we stick to discussing what named sources say. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 19:49, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
- Jeez.That's exactly what Andrew is saying, and what I've been saying, and what ReaverFlash was saying in the very first post in this thread, which is called Misrepresenting what sources say. The source does not say what that article claims. Your response is WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT, yet again. Paul B (talk) 22:10, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
- I'm taken aback, and a bit offended by that reply, SV. Are you focusing only on the second to last sentence I wrote, and ignoring everything else? Or are you saying it is only my "personal opinion" that the article is specifically saying something that is not found in the source? *confused*-Andrew c [talk] 22:26, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
- I don't see the point of adding personal opinions here, Andrew. There's no chance of fixing this article up unless we stick to discussing what named sources say. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 19:49, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, I'm losing track of what any of these discussions are about. There are hundreds of thousands of words on this page and its archives of editors exchanging views, and the few sentences that really are direct issues about named sources tend to get lost in it all. I'm sorry if anyone is offended by that. Andrew, could you say in one short sentence what your issue is with the source or the words we use to describe what the source said? SlimVirgin talk|contribs 22:30, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, there is a lot of discussion. I wasn't exactly replying to any of the above when I started this thread (which is why I didn't indent), but I didn't want to create a new topic when there was already discussion on this general topic (I personally don't want to get into any of that OED mess, which you seemed to be venting on me in your first post). That said, your last edit fixed my concern, so I'm totally fine not taking up any more talk page discussion (though adding "surviving" to the second clause may (or may not) help). -Andrew c [talk] 23:01, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, I'm losing track of what any of these discussions are about. There are hundreds of thousands of words on this page and its archives of editors exchanging views, and the few sentences that really are direct issues about named sources tend to get lost in it all. I'm sorry if anyone is offended by that. Andrew, could you say in one short sentence what your issue is with the source or the words we use to describe what the source said? SlimVirgin talk|contribs 22:30, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
It already says "no extant contemporaneous sources"!! How many times? No extant sources. No existing sources. No surviving sources. We have no sources. We have no accounts. Good lord!SlimVirgin talk|contribs 23:08, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, I must apologize for my last post. Frustration got the better of me there, I'm afraid. I hope the issue is sorted out now. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 23:11, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
- This discussion seems like a failure to "pick your battles." It seems to me "contemporaneous" is preferred simply because it lacks the sense of "modern," and is therefore less ambiguous. As long as the writing is clear, there are obviously much bigger things for the editors to work out. for example...
- Why are Pagels and Christianity Today being removed as references? They are both excellent, relevant, and they can be read in their entirety on the Web. The Chrsitiantiy Today article covers the entire issue from an insider's view, and I consider it must-reading for anyone interested in the topic (The Jesus We'll Never Know). Elaine Pagles is, in my view, the highest quality source we will find on the matter, and her comment is directly relevant to the paragraph in question: "The problem I have with all these versions of the so called "historical Jesus" is that they each choose certain early sources as their central evidence, and each presents a part of the picture. My own problem with this, as a historian, is that none of the historical evidence actually goes back as far as Jesus—so these various speculations are that, and nothing more." THE POLITICS OF CHRISTIANITY: A TALK WITH ELAINE PAGELS. Pagels is a professor of religion at Princeton University, author of many books on Christianity. The Gnostic Gospels won the the National Book Critics award and she is also a MacArthur Fellowship recipient. These sources are being silently deleted, even though they are rich enough to be useful in several aspects of the article. Why? Noloop (talk) 20:05, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
What was the objection for removing the source? Please show the diff. There might be something in the edit summary.-Civilizededucationtalk 04:36, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
This discussion seems like a failure to "pick your battles." Are you trying to say that folks are picking on these issues because they are unable to find any meaningful things to do?-Civilizededucationtalk 10:54, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
Stanton in the lede
Stanton is not a historian and therefore isn't a reliable source on a consensus among historians. Even if he were, the lede is still misleading because it talks about scholars in general not about historians and therefore isn't an accurate representation of the source. I do believe the general statement is true, but it needs better sourcing, possibly even from Stanton but not this specific quote.Martijn Meijering (talk) 00:29, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
- It's also a problem because the lead is specific about how the existence of Jesus is (allegedly) established, whereas the supporting quote isn't actually about that. Noloop (talk) 00:39, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
- I disagree. Stanton may not be a historian per se, but he is a good and balanced source on the subject. The distinction between historians and biblical scholars is an imprecise one here. What difference is there between saying that the existence of Jesus is accepted by historians who consider the gospels to contain useful evidence, and saying that they consider his existence can be established using documentary evidence? I see no objection to this quote, although it could be attributed to him directly in the text if you prefer.--Rbreen (talk) 00:46, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
- Stanton is a historian, and is a reliable source on multiple counts. (wow, that is easy to do, making bold assertions!) Anyway, the sentence in the lead is qualified "majority of scholars who specialize in the historicity of Jesus of Nazareth". Who specializes in the historicity of Jesus? Is that some new tract of study? I'm not sure what you folks have been doing to the lead, but it has issues. But I guess that is another point. It seems like we had an OK, sourced lead, but things have been cut and changed to fit the desires of a couple editors, while keeping the same sources from before (but without taking into consideration that one editor's desire may not be supported by the pre-existing sources). Maybe editors who are rewriting the lead should stick to the sources better. I'm going to have a hard time defending the current phrasing based on this, even when I find generally that our sources are good, and reliable. -Andrew c [talk] 14:59, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
- Anyway, the sentence in the lead is qualified "majority of scholars who specialize in the historicity of Jesus of Nazareth". I think you have a point there. How do we know that the source is saying majority of scholars who specialize in the historicity of Jesus of Nazareth? Let's stick to what the source is saying even if it is totally unclear what he is saying. I mean, let's not put our words into the mouth of the source. Even if we are unsatisfied with his wording, we should not take it upon ourselves to clarify it according to our own inclinations. We should let it remain unclear and misleading because the source statement is unclear and misleading.-Civilizededucationtalk 04:21, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
- I mean, it is obvious that the statement has problems. But instead of putting words in the mouth of the source, we should find other ways of solving the problem.-Civilizededucationtalk 04:43, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
- I think the quote should not be in the lede. If we are going to quote Stanton, then we should quote him accurately. But if we do, he is no longer a reliable source on the opinion of historians, not being one himself. We could still quote him if we think it is notable, but his opinion should be presented as an opinion, not a fact. In any event the current quote should not be in the lede. Martijn Meijering (talk) 14:59, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
Huh, where did the Stanton quote go? Did I start this discussion on the wrong talk page? I see the quote is still there on the Jesus myth page. Martijn Meijering (talk) 15:07, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
- You are on the correct page. The quote is in the first line of the article now. I think the quote should not even be in the article. It should not even be on Wikipedia because it is totally unclear what it is saying. We don't use unclear statements on Wikipedia.-Civilizededucationtalk 16:40, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
Sources of information of the historicity
Let's establish some guidelines for how we'll treat the historic evidence for historicy. Right now, some of these sections have little connection to the actual topic. For example, here's the section of Paul:
Paul of Tarsus, a first century Hellenistic Jew who experienced a conversion to faith in Jesus, dictated letters to various churches and individuals from c. 48–68.[6] Fourteen letters are traditionally attributed to Paul, thirteen of which claim to be written by the man (the Epistle to the Hebrews is anonymous). Current scholarship generally believes that at least seven of these letters are authentic Pauline compositions, with views varying concerning the remaining works.
The historical Jesus is fundamental to the teachings of Paul, who rejected the separation of the Jesus of faith from the Jesus of history.[7] While not personally an eye-witness of Jesus' ministry, Paul states that he was acquainted with people who had known Jesus: the apostle Peter (also known as Cephas), the apostle John, and James, the brother of Jesus.[8] Additionally, in his letters, Paul often refers to both teachings of Jesus and events in Jesus' life. For example, Paul talks about Jesus' teaching regarding divorce, the second coming, and the remuneration of religious leaders.[9] Likewise, Paul alludes to Jesus' humanity,the Last Supper, his crucifixion, and reports of his resurrection.[10]
This says very little about how the writings of Paul relate the subject of this particular article--the historical evidence for Jesus. The section should consist of modern, reliable, and neutral sources discussing the relevance of the the Pauline epistles to establishing the actual existence of Jesus. Noloop (talk) 03:17, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
- I can see the problem that you are trying to make out. Actually I have been meaning to take it up myself. I think that there are other views on Paul's understanding of Jesus. Some sources say that Paul only discusses Jesus in a metaphysical way and says that Jesus only "seems" to exist and does not discuss Jesus as a flesh and blood being. This point should also be mentioned.-Civilizededucationtalk 05:54, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
- I mean, some sources say that Paul did not know of any historical Jesus and that he only talks of a metaphysical Jesus who "seems" to exist. That was his idea of Jesus.-Civilizededucationtalk 06:15, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
- That's definitely worth mentioning. I suspect the main gist of the section should be about how Paul's mention of Jesus is supposed to evidence for the historical existence of Jesus. We don't think there was a historical Dionysus just because people mention him. Why is Jesus different? What's the reasoning among reliable sources? Obviously, it would be good if we didn't have to rely on priests for this secular, historical view. Noloop (talk) 14:03, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
- Letter-writing wasn't exactly common in that age. There were oracles and movements. Dionysus was a beloved god of the people with a mass following (who was resurrected, born of a mortal woman and Zeus, and had wine as his sacrament--hence the theory that Jesus is derived from him). Noloop (talk) 14:29, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not saying the section is perfect or couldn't use expanding, but I think it is decent and does relate to the topic of this article. The first paragraph gives a brief summary of background information on the section "Pauline epistles", which I feel is necessary, though I'm not attached to our present wording by any means; it is adequate. The second paragraph explains what possibly can be gleaned from the epistles about the historical Jesus. I think a concluding sentence like the one found in Meier would help synthesize a bit more "these [references to the historical Jesus in Paul's letters] at best simply confirm what the Gospels tell us anyway". or rather, the reason why scholars believe Paul contains material associated with the actual historical Jesus is because parallels are found in the synoptic 'teachings/sayings' material.
As to Civilizededucation's suggestion, I found a brief reference to that argument in Theissen/Merz for the sake of rebutting it, but they do not attribute it to anyone in particular. The argument goes "The earliest Christian writings, the letters of Paul, depict Jesus as an almost mythical being, whose earthly existence seems to be only the intermediate stage between pre-existence and exaltation... As the Synoptics are later than the letters of Paul, given the fact that Paul cites hardly any traditions about Jesus, the suspicion arises that a good deal of the Jesus tradition did not yet exist in the time of Paul." The latter part isn't a critique of Paul as much as a critique of the synoptic tradition. They find it notable enough to briefly mention and present 4 counterarguments, but it really is a shame they don't attribute that argument to anyone. Does anyone here know any citations that forward such arguments? I just looked in Price, and he briefly attacks those who would find the words of the historical Jesus in Paul, just because there are synoptic teachings paralells, in the cases where Paul does not cite his source as Jesus (you'd think, if it was so important, and that the material came from the Lord, Paul would have made some indication of that), but that argument isn't an attack on all Pauline material, and is a bit different from introducing the mythical thesis. Maybe Price wrote more about this topic elsehwere? Ehrman and Meier don't mention this view either, so they aren't much help (Meier has extensive footnoting on scholarly debates about how much of Paul's 'teachings of Jesus' material). With all that said, if you have "modern, reliable, and neutral sources discussing the relevance", I'd totally encourage such additions. Do you have any proposed new sources that fit the bill Noloop? -Andrew c [talk] 14:05, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
- I agree the reasoning is likely that Paul confirms other sources, and that confirmation is evidence. I can't say I find the reasoning very convincing. Paul never knew Jesus, so his knowledge probably came from the very sources he supposedly confirms. In other words, why couldn't Paul's letters have been based on the oral tradition that became the gospels? Something like the"Q"? Since this seems like a likely criticism that needs to be addressed, I assume some discussion of it is out there somewhere. Noloop (talk) 14:23, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
- What Price seemed to be saying isn't that Paul and the synoptics could have gotten the information from the same source (which happens to not be an actual historical Jesus tradition), but instead is implying that ideas that were unique to Paul were later given more credence by the gospel writers by attributing them to Jesus (when actuality Paul is their author, not Jesus). And again, that only applies to some of the Pauline material with synoptic parallels, not all, since there are a few places where Paul is attributing text to Jesus. Well, as for sources, that is an interesting way to approach this. :) If we have sources fine. It seems a little odd to think up criticism, and then suppose that somewhere there has to be sources that make the same arguments you just thought up. I encourage you to keep looking for sources, if you want to include such material, but in general, I think we should follow sources first, as opposed to coming up with ideas, then trying to find sources that fit our 'original' ideas. -Andrew c [talk] 14:45, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
- The problem with that is that he is saying he has met actual people who knew him. This, of course, is at a time when there would be many people around who had known him, seen him preaching etc. We are not talking about an "oral tradition" of something hundreds of years earlier, but something that was just a few years earlier. In any case, what you or I personally find convincing is neither here nor there, as you know. Paul B (talk) 14:47, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
- I agree the reasoning is likely that Paul confirms other sources, and that confirmation is evidence. I can't say I find the reasoning very convincing. Paul never knew Jesus, so his knowledge probably came from the very sources he supposedly confirms. In other words, why couldn't Paul's letters have been based on the oral tradition that became the gospels? Something like the"Q"? Since this seems like a likely criticism that needs to be addressed, I assume some discussion of it is out there somewhere. Noloop (talk) 14:23, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
- My point was that it's not valid to assume the first written account of something is the origin of it. There was undoubtedly an oral tradition, on which both Paul and the gospels drew. So, it's not clear a similarity between Paul and the gospels constitutes independent confirmation of anything. This is all OR, of course; I'm not proposing we insert it in the article because of my reasoning. The problem with section right now is that it doesn't actually feature reliable (or neutral) sources talking about Paul in the context of J's historicity. Noloop (talk) 16:28, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
Andrew c 3 reverts (oral or written, ordained Baptist, Jesus Project)
I reverted 3 edits of Civilizededucation, and I'd briefly like to explain to allow for further discussion. My first revert removed the new sentence It is not clear whether they were written or oral sources which was attached to the Ehrman p. 83 citation. The only place Ehrman says "either written documents that no longer survive or oral traditions that they had heard" is in relation to the special M and L material. Not all the sources behind the Gospels. Ehrman argues clearly that Q was a written source, so we cannot say that scholars don't know if the sources were written or oral in all cases. Similarly, the semeia source is argued to be written as well. We clearly repeat later in the paragraph that the M and L special material could have been written or oral, so I think Ehrman's point is presented, in the proper context, already. CE's change made it seem like there was doubt across the board for all sources whether they were written or oral, when at least two are always argued to be written.
My second revert restored "The non gospel books of the New Testament do not contribute much to our picture of Jesus" This is an important phrase to include. Without it, it makes it seem like McKnight is referring to Paul, the Gospels, and Acts, when he is actually referring to the non-gospel books. I also feel like the sentence is important to qualify the NT, as the bulk of the NT material IS unrelated to the HJ. Finally, it introduced "ordained Baptist" and removed "New Testament scholar". What evidence is there that the view presented by McKnight stems from his religious ordination? I'd be glad to include such a qualify, if it can be substantiated. Otherwise, his background in NT scholarship seems much more relevant. I believe the RfC has general agreement to include such religious qualifies when presenting clearly religious ideas. I don't feel that this is a case, but I'm open to arguments on the contrary.
Finally, I removed reference to the "Jesus Project" from the sentence that started "it continues today among scholars such as". The Jesus Project does not continue today. Such an addition is inaccurate. I'm not opposed to adding a mention of the JP at all, so I'd encourage someone to find another way to incorporate the link if they feel it is still needed. Just don't imply they are still active. -Andrew c [talk] 14:17, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
- Ha! The subject line makes it seem like a 3RR violation.-Andrew c [talk] 14:46, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
- Do you even review edits before reverting them. The Mcknight attribution is not my doing.-Civilizededucationtalk 15:12, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
- The RfC is not limited to "clearly religious ideas." That's absurd. This is an article on a secular matter, and we are presumably not presenting any religious ideas at all. The question of the RfC: When we use in-text attribution regarding a point about the historicity of Jesus, and the source is an ordained minister or similar, should we include that information in the attribution? For example, should we write: "New Testament scholar N.T. Wright, the Bishop of Durham, argues that ..."? [19]. The McKnight comment is "a point about the historicity of Jesus," and the source is an ordained minister. (I might add that if you look at the actual source, you see some pretty specious reasoning. McKnight very much seems to be skimping on analysis in an area where he has religious belief.) Noloop (talk) 16:37, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
- It is very clear from the RFC that this attribution is needed. I don't see the point in reverting it now.-Civilizededucationtalk 16:44, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
- It is here apparently. I was gone when this took place and reviewing it now makes it clear that the outside opinions were split, and those in favor of attribution pretty much all added caveats to their vote that are not being represented accurately or fairly in the above comments. For instance I don't see any outside commentators supporting the attribution of someone's religious affiliation, and see many supporting all kinds of attribution (which would mean mentioning that someone is a bishop as well as mentioning their academic credentials. Those in favor of attribution here don't want that however, because their only aim is to make the readers think certain scholars are biased. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 17:51, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
This is a lie: "those in favor of attribution pretty much all added caveats to their vote that are not being represented accurately or fairly in the above comments. For instance I don't see any outside commentators supporting the attribution of someone's religious affiliation..."
- Support Relevant information about the source of a scholarly opinion is always relevant and virtually never something that can be construed to be biased. Mentioning someone's position as a minister should hardly even be a matter of debate, former bishops included. Mentioning someone's religion seems less clear-cut, though. It would very much depend on how the belief has been expressed. If anything, compare it with politics: mentioning that a political writer is a (former) politician of a certain party is obvious, but not necessarily what party s/he voted for. Peter Isotalo 19:32, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
- Support If this were a controversial comment related to the biography of Barack Obama, as a reader I'd like to know who made the comment, and what his political background is, to understand the context. I see no difference here. History and its interpretation are highly politicized, esp. when they relate to modern issues. So when it comes to the history of religious figures revered by some modern day historians, our readers have the right to know where those historians are coming from, to get the full picture. Crum375 (talk) 21:30, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
- Support If someone is an ordained minster, that is an important fact in the attribution. At the same time, the fact that they are ordained should be verifiable. Elmmapleoakpine (talk) 02:15, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
- Support. When the source has a clear conflict of interest (namely studying something they believe to be their personal savior and gateway to eternal life) the reader should be informed. -- ۩ Mask 16:46, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
- Support in some instances. Some illumination on the background of the person giving the commentary, if it is relevant, is something that I would advertise. The occupation revealed should, in my opinion, be in a short, preface-like manner that isn't too long or distracting. If it breaks one of those principles or is unimportant, then it shouldn't be there for the particular cases. Backtable
There are more. Noloop (talk) 18:25, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
- First of all, there are no more outside views supporting attribution, and one of the views you've quoted above is very questionably uninvolved. The rest of the supporting views come from clearly involved editors with a distinct POV. I'll grant that my above comment wasn't 100% accurate, but my point is exactly that some of the support votes had caveats like ...
- "... Mentioning someone's position as a minister should hardly even be a matter of debate ... Mentioning someone's religion seems less clear-cut, though."
- "Support in some instances ... If it breaks one of those principles or unimportant, then it shouldn't be there for the particular cases."
- There seemed to be support for attribution of someone's profession generally, and specifically for attribution of ministerial affiliation, but not mere religious preferences. That's my point.Griswaldo (talk) 18:37, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
- First of all, there are no more outside views supporting attribution, and one of the views you've quoted above is very questionably uninvolved. The rest of the supporting views come from clearly involved editors with a distinct POV. I'll grant that my above comment wasn't 100% accurate, but my point is exactly that some of the support votes had caveats like ...
- It is also notable that one outside party pointed out during the RFC that all of this is covered by policy, and this policy is explicitly against the push for attributions unless what is being attributed is an opinion, as opposed to an uncontested fact. Please read WP:ASF. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 18:51, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
- Yeah, OK, you "accidentally" missed five counter-examples. Coincidentally, the accident advances a position you've been trying to advance for the last two months.
- The so-called "outside party" advancing WP:ASF is Jrtayloriv. There is a section on that same page called" Jrtayloriv's lead changes". He was real uninvolved.[20]
- We aren't discussing mentioning "mere religious preferences." Stop misrepresenting the situation and making strawman arguments. Two months of that from you gets old.
- WP:ASF applies to matters of uncontested fact. There was a long discussion of this on the Talk page with Jrtayloriv [21]. We are having these disputes because the facts are contested.
- The matter at hand is whether non-Gospel New Testament texts confirm the fact of the historical Jesus. Please document that it's an uncontested fact that the non-Gospel texts of the New Testament confirms the existence of Jesus. Noloop (talk) 19:11, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
- And what facts exactly are "in serious dispute among reliable sources"? That is the language of WP:ASF. Only in such situations do statements need attribution. You're simply using attribution to insinuate bias.Griswaldo (talk) 19:40, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
- (EC)Seriously, why edit war to get this in to the article? You know it is contentious, and you know that it is under discussion on the talk page? So why the heck would you edit war to restore this newly added, contentious material (well, maybe not "newly added", as it has been discussed multiple times in the past)? Seriously, WTH? You have been making borderline personal attacks on other editors, your tone is very condescending, and perhaps you are upset or frustrated. But now I see you are edit warring over this as well. It is hard to react to that, and try to work in good faith with someone in such a state. I'm hoping that you can self revert, calm down a bit, and we can all scale back and discuss this civilly. -Andrew c [talk] 19:59, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
- Gee, I was told it's OK to make negative comments about edits, just not editors. Why is it OK to say comments are bigoted, but not lies? Noloop (talk) 23:16, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
- Hello last month. If you recall, I apologized for using the B-word, and have NOT used it since. Water under bridge? Ahem. Anyway, I wrote a whole paragraph explaining why I felt your edit was problematic, could you please at least try to address my concerns. Why did you delete the first half of the sentence? I explain above in the OP why I feel it is important, and why without it, you are misrepresenting what McKnight says.-Andrew c [talk] 00:48, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
- Gee, I was told it's OK to make negative comments about edits, just not editors. Why is it OK to say comments are bigoted, but not lies? Noloop (talk) 23:16, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
Hello last month. If you recall, I apologized for using the B-word, and have NOT used it since. Water under bridge? Please don't speak as if it was nothing. You don't know what it feels like to be in a situation like that. You don't know how it changes people. It cannot be forgotten because it is not something that can be forgotten.-Civilizededucationtalk 03:28, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
- I was referring to Griswaldo, and the crowd from the Slrubenstein RfC. Noloop (talk) 05:19, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
- @Andrew c. Your latest "surviving" edit does not appear to make any sense. What does it mean. Please review it. Do we have any proof to show that there were any accounts to start with. Your edit is implying that.(besides not making good sense)-Civilizededucationtalk 08:56, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
- TO quote SV "There are no extent contemporaneous sources. That means no one from his lifetime wrote anything about him that survived." Key words are "extent" and/or "that survived". The prior phrasing said that there were no sources. We shouldn't say one way or the other that there were or there weren't sources, only that most scholars think the sources, in the current form, were composed decades after Jesus' death. I feel like we should also point out that most scholars think that some of these sources, the gospels in particular, contain material that does come from the time of Jesus... regardless, I don't think it was appropriate to make a bold claim that no sources ever existed (but we shouldn't definitely say that there were sources either). IMO, the wording from a couple days ago was superior. Also, why no talk on the McKnight stuff at all? -Andrew c [talk] 13:27, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
- I have tried to address your concern of misrepresentation. After the RFC, I don't see much need for further discussion on the issue. The RFC is very clear that the attribution is needed.-Civilizededucationtalk 14:23, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
- There is surviving no evidence for the existence of Jesus that comes from the time of Jesus—no writings or artifacts of his, no accounts of him written in his lifetime. This is the present sentence. I was trying to say that the addition of "surviving" has made the sentence ungrammatical and implies that there were some sources which have been lost. Since we agree that we should not say whether there were/weren't sources, the removal of "surviving" should solve the issue. It would make no claim in either direction.-Civilizededucationtalk 14:55, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
- There's nothing wrong with reporting various opinions. According to church tradition the gospels of Matthew and John were written by eyewitnesses and Mark was written by the interpreter of an eyewitness. I think that the majority of biblical scholars no longer accept these claims and we can report both opinions. In any event it is true that no surviving source is generally accepted as an eyewitness account, nor do we know of eyewitness accounts that have not survived. Martijn Meijering (talk) 15:24, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
- "Surviving" is a red herring. The present tense takes care of any doubts. There is no evidence for X from the time of X. This doesn't imply X never existed. If I say there are no dinosaurs, I'm saying there are no surviving dinosaurs; the word "surviving" is unnecessary. Leaving it out doesn't imply there have never been dinosaurs. Noloop (talk) 15:47, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
- Additional point: the modifier "from his time" implies that there is evidence for the existence of Jesus (just from a different time). So the current wording implies the existence of evidence, yet it is still being lawyered over. The word-gaming in this topic is just insane. Noloop (talk) 15:50, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
- Please explain what is wrong with the previous wording: "There is no evidence for the existence of Jesus that comes from the time of Jesus". What the source, Elaine Pagels, said: "none of the historical evidence actually goes back as far as Jesus" Noloop (talk) 16:24, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
RfC outcome
- The RFC is very clear that the attribution is needed.
I just re-read the RfC, made counts, annotations, and tried to get a feel of it, again. On sheer number counting, we have 13 supports, 8 oppose, and 2 others. 57% vs. 35%. I don't see how that is consensus, vs. vote counting. On closer analysis of the comments, and the discussion following the votes, I found commentors or both sides presenting grey areas where "in some cases" or "in some instances" such attributions IS needed. There are only about 5 people that clearly suggest something along the line of "Christians aren't neutral on the existence of Jesus", and that this general bias should be presented on that fact alone. On the other hand, there were only maybe 2 or 3 editors with 'oppose' votes that thought scholars should blanket be "given benefit of doubt", and even then it isn't clear if they would oppose "some cases" of religious affiliation attribution. There were three commentors who really didn't discuss the topic at hand, but after their vote went on about something off topic. That leaves about 12 people, on both sides, that support attribution "in some cases" or "in some instances". It was my view now (and before the current thread) that the only consensus that could read from the RfC is that there was broad support for attribution in some cases, where the attribution is "relevant", "important to our understanding of what they have to say", "[i]If the balance of other reliable secondary sources discussing the author's work make the attribution, then we should too", "[i]f it's an opinion, or a statement of fact that is contradicted by other reliable sources, it needs to be attributed." The funny thing, Noloop said clearly "Christians aren't neutral on the existence of Jesus" and Civilizededucation "I see all sources on matters like religion, as having some bias", but I don't think anywhere close to a majority support the idea of Christian talking about Jesus=bias, and thus needs attribution. The majority of commentors had a higher standard. Do reliable sources discuss the religious background? Is the material disputed? Is the religious background relevant to each example on a case by case basis? In terms of McKnight, I want to know specifically why it is important to add the "Baptist" qualification. Is the claim disputed? Do other sources when discussing his scholarship on this topic make the qualification? How is "Baptist" relevant to his claim on historicity? As Griswaldo said above, I don't see how this particular case is anything but an effort to insinuate bias, which is unfounded in reliable sources. I'd welcome an uninvolved admin to review the RfC and determine "consensus". I think the important point is we all discussed our views, and we are able to find some commmon ground, you know, parts that we can all agree to.-Andrew c [talk] 15:55, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
Define Topic
I tend to agree with Andrew. Indeed it would be fair to say that we have all gone a little crazy and the article has suffered. I thought a good place to start would be to define the topic so that we are all talking about the same thing. After doing some reading, the sources are pretty much in agreement with the definition of Shirley Jackson Case: "The historicity of Jesus, is a narrow area of Biblical scholarship that attempts to answer the question: Is Jesus of Nazareth a historical individual, or is he purely a creation of fancy?" Cheers - Ret.Prof (talk) 22:57, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
- Don't like "purely a creation of fancy," Elegard's Jesus is neither definitely historical nor pure fancy. There are many gray areas. There could have been a historical figure who bore some relation to Jesus Christ, and the difference is the layering of legend on top of that distant figure. The current characterization is a false dichotomy. Noloop (talk) 23:19, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
- I agree. The evidence shows that there was a "Jesus" but what did this historical Jesus look like. Yet there are some scholars who deny his historicity saying there never was a man named Jesus. No gray area at all! They are in the minority and that is what this article is about. - Ret.Prof (talk) 02:17, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
- I don't see how the article is about the non-existence of a gray area. Ellegard is frequently dumped into the "creation of fancy" crowd, even though he doesn't think that. The labels are too crude: we can do better. Even the mythists don't actually call Jesus a creation of fancy. Noloop (talk) 05:22, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
- I think the grey area is covered by the definition. It is not outside the preview of this definition.-Civilizededucationtalk 09:10, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
- Never mind we have two reliable and two notable sources that say the ideas of the Historicity of Jesus runs the full spectrum of "total fictitious creation" to "Gospels are reasonably accurate historical documents with possibly every detail recorded exactly as it happened". Ellegard who has been put into the mythist category does NOT say "there never was a man named Jesus" but rather and I quote "Accordingly, though the Gospels are entirely fictional in their portrayal of Jesus as an itinerant preacher and wonderworker, accompanied by twelve disciples, Paul's Jesus was indeed a historical figure, namely, the Essene Teacher of Righteousness." ("Theologians as historians" by Allvar Ellegard Lunds Universitet). Wells Jesus Legend (1996) on theory of "possibly mythic Paul Jesus + historical but not crucified Q Jesus = Gospel Jesus" has been called part of the Christ Myth theory by Stanton, Price, Doherty, Richard Carrier, and Boyd-Eddy. These and many more exampled show that no one can even agree on what the Christ Myth theory even is or who is one.--BruceGrubb (talk) 09:23, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
- I think the grey area is covered by the definition. It is not outside the preview of this definition.-Civilizededucationtalk 09:10, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
- I don't see how the article is about the non-existence of a gray area. Ellegard is frequently dumped into the "creation of fancy" crowd, even though he doesn't think that. The labels are too crude: we can do better. Even the mythists don't actually call Jesus a creation of fancy. Noloop (talk) 05:22, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
- I agree. The evidence shows that there was a "Jesus" but what did this historical Jesus look like. Yet there are some scholars who deny his historicity saying there never was a man named Jesus. No gray area at all! They are in the minority and that is what this article is about. - Ret.Prof (talk) 02:17, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
- ^ "The nonhistoricity thesis has always been controversial, and it has consistently failed to convince scholars of many disciplines and religious creeds. ... Biblical scholars and classical historians now regard it as effectively refuted."—Van Voorst, Robert E. Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 2000), p. 16.
- ^ "The denial of Jesus' historicity has never convinced any large number of people, in or out of technical circles, nor did it in the first part of the century." Walter P. Weaver, The Historical Jesus in the Twentieth Century, 1900-1950, (Continuum International, 1999), page 71.