Line 143: | Line 143: | ||
:::When and if you come back with a valid, reputable source claiming that official Exec. branch policy was the individualist interpretation, then I'll discuss it with you. What the individual president's thought here is beside the point--what's at issue is the official stance taken by the executive branch as a whole. Even if Reagan disagreed with the policy, he never changed it, and thus the sentence is accurate as it stands in my version. [[User:Meelar|Meelar]] [[User talk:Meelar|(talk)]] 14:09, May 19, 2005 (UTC) |
:::When and if you come back with a valid, reputable source claiming that official Exec. branch policy was the individualist interpretation, then I'll discuss it with you. What the individual president's thought here is beside the point--what's at issue is the official stance taken by the executive branch as a whole. Even if Reagan disagreed with the policy, he never changed it, and thus the sentence is accurate as it stands in my version. [[User:Meelar|Meelar]] [[User talk:Meelar|(talk)]] 14:09, May 19, 2005 (UTC) |
||
::::This is rich. The presidents opinion isn't policy? [[User:Mlorrey|Mlorrey]] 01:59, 26 May 2005 (UTC) |
|||
==[[User:Mlorrey]]'s version== |
==[[User:Mlorrey]]'s version== |
Revision as of 01:59, 26 May 2005
Infringed
I would like to see an explanation on how the following is consistent with the pro-gun argument.
- up until the National Firearms Act of 1934, there was no Federal law against ordinary Americans' owning any weapons available anywhere, including anything the US military used, such as tanks, artillery, bombs and even high-explosives. No licenses and no registration were required.
- Most people on both sides agree that so-called "Weapons of Mass Destruction" (i.e., biological, chemical and nuclear weapons) cannot have any legitimate purpose in the hands of individuals and that even in non-hostile hands these weapons pose a serious threat due to the risk of even simple accidents during storage or transport. As such, most agree that even the broad protections of the Second Amendment for the right to keep and bear arms do not apply to "WMD's".
I would say it is because infringed means "destroyed" or "removed" and not "abridged" and not "encroached upon". Yet I hear repeatedly from those opposing gun control the Slippery slope argument that no restrictions should be allowed.
Note that the 1828 dictionary definition of "infringe" does not have any meaning synonymous with "encroach" -- only with "destroy"
--JimWae 01:13, 2004 Dec 8 (UTC)
By 1828, which was more than 40 years after the Constitution was ratified, the IBA was beginning its campaign to rewrite legal dictionaries that has continued to this day. BTW: What legal dictionary are you referring to?
"Infringe" is said 'to break or destroy', but that is an incomplete definition, because fringe is the fragile edge, ergo the more proper definition of 'infringe' is to break or destroy the fragile edge of something. We can see this in property law wrt trespass. Trespass, breaking and entering, vandalism are infringements of ones property rights, they are not outright confiscations or destructions of one's property rights. They are temporary, minor, transient violations, not permanent or total.
In legal use, "infringement" is defined as the unauthorised use of anothers right or property, not its confiscation (e.g. patent infringement). As firearms ownership is a right of property, it is clear that government, nor any other party, shall use our property right to keep and bear arms without our authorization. Note: Black's Law says: "Infraction - A traffic infraction is sometimes called a "traffic ticket." Black's Law Dictionary states that an infraction is "a breach, violation, or infringement; as of a law, a contract, a right or duty."" Law.com Dictionary says, "infringement n. 1) a trespassing or illegal entering. 2) in the law of patents (protected inventions) and copyrights (protected writings or graphics), the improper use of a patent, writing, graphic or trademark without permission, without notice, and especially without contracting for payment of a royalty. Even though the infringement may be accidental (an inventor thinks he is the first to develop the widget although someone else has a patent), the party infringing is responsible to pay the original patent or copyright owner substantial damages, which can be the normal royalty or as much as the infringers' accumulated gross profits. See also: copyright patent plagiarism royalty trademark". The WordNet legal dictionary says, "[n] 1. a crime less serious than a felony [n] 2. an act that disregards an agreement or a right; "he claimed a violation of his rights under the Fifth Amendment"." Webster's 1913 says, " \In*fringe"ment\, n. 1. The act of infringing; breach; violation; nonfulfillment; as, the infringement of a treaty, compact, law, or constitution. "The punishing of this infringement is proper to that jurisdiction against which the contempt is." --Clarendon. 2. An encroachment on a patent, copyright, or other special privilege; a trespass." - Mike Lorrey
- It is a common presumption that the word "infringed" derives from the English meaning of "fringe". It does not.
Infringe possibly had a different intensive meaning in 1789
- There is some disagreement over what the word infringe means. Relevant to this are definitions given in the 1828 Webster's Dictionary [1], all of which give a sense of the complete removal of a right, not to encroachment nor to abridgement that is now one meaning of the word. It remains an open question whether or not the 1828 dictionary definition was a complete account of usage of the word at that time. According to the Encarta dictionary [2] infringe entered the English language about 1550 from the French word frangere meaning "to break", and is the source of the word fracture. An early appearance is in Shakespeare's Measure for Measure. The Supreme Court of the United States has repeatedly permitted to stand many gun-control laws, all of which would seem to constitute abridgements on Second Amendment protections without completely removing them.
--JimWae 01:21, 2005 Jan 25 (UTC)
At the time, individual rights were so highly regarded that any encroachment was seen as tantamount to removal. The various laws passed and let stand have snuck in under an improper definition of the word "regulate", which at the time merely meant 'trained' in order of march and unit maneuvers. It did not mean to statutorily restrict rights. Mlorrey 03:03, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The important thing here, though, is that an infringement is a temporary, minor, transient violation of one's rights, just as one gets a speeding ticket for a temporary infringement of the speed limit. Such temporary violation is to be strenuously distinguished from total taking or confiscation. As I said above, a trespass upon one's property isn't a taking, but converting a lien upon a deed is a taking. Ergo, a minor violation of one's 2nd amendment right is an infringement. A total confiscation of it is a taking. Two entirely different things. Mlorrey 01:58, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Tell someone whose suffered copyright infringment that is minor. The important thing here is that the meaning of the word has changed & was somewhat ambiguous in the first place - and likely a committee word chosen because its meaning was flexible. Are you proposing that a right to bear arms is uniquely an absolute right that may never be touched or restricted even in minor ways? Are you not then proposing a right to possess WMDs?--JimWae 02:12, 2005 Mar 13 (UTC)
- Copyright infringment is when someone copies a book you've published, they haven't taken every royalty you've ever earned. That is the distinction between infringement and taking: infringement is partial, temporary, or transient violation, not outright and total theft. As copyright and trademarks are forms of MONOPOLY, I think it is clear that even one act of copying a book is an infringement that is punishable. Why not hold the same standard with the 2nd Amendment? I hold the monopoly on MY 2nd Amend. rights, which you cannot infringe (or the state cannot).
- As for WMDs: well-armed merchantmen and privateers were widely owned by private citizens, with a significant amount of cannon. A vessel with ten or more heavy cannon in that day and age was a WMD, yet they were owned by private citizens without regulation or licensing. Posession of a device capable of vast harm should not be a crime in and of itself. Doing so belies a view that the individual cannot be trusted with liberty and must always be the ward of the state. What IS of distinguishing value is whether such a device has a valid defensive or other use. It is clear that the 50 years of MAD policy through the cold war illustrate there is some defensive value to posession of WMD. Terrorism is a phenomenon that results when the state doesn't trust its citizens. Mlorrey 02:43, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- so you are Ok with letting people have nuclear weapons until they show they cannot be trusted with them? You've also focussed your points exclusively on ONE current meaning of the word & completely ignored the argument about the meaning having changed--JimWae 02:50, 2005 Mar 13 (UTC)
- that the meaning has changed is exactly IRRELEVANT. What is important is the framers intent. I also think the government-media complex has trained most people into lemmings so distrusting their fellow man that they are willing to believe your nextdoor neighbor, who you've known for 20 yesrs, is a heinous wretch if Good Morning America tells you so.Mlorrey 02:41, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- I see there's little point in discussing this with you - other than that we have only their words with which to discover their intent - unless you know how to channel with them... Infraction & fringe sound like infringe - and far too many "experts" think that is enough to ascertain its meaning. --JimWae 02:52, 2005 Mar 14 (UTC)
- I happen to read their writings and they had a lot to say about the right to keep and bear arms which really blows your POV out of the water in many ways. I'll bet you're the sort who thinks Mike Belisilles is a great scholar. You really need to kick back and do the research if you want to go around vandalizing the work others are doing. Your strictly POV search and destroy habits are really without credible support. Mlorrey 03:41, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- MAD only worked because everybody could tell who launched the attack. If Joe Shmoe can have nukes, I guess North Korea & Iran & Lebanon & Hezbellah & the IRA can too, eh?--JimWae 03:05, 2005 Mar 13 (UTC)
- Imagine exactly how many 9-11 terrorists would have succeeded in their plan if the American people had been allowed their natural and constitutional right to fly armed? None.Mlorrey 02:41, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Old Top
You link to Dredd Scott v. Sandford, but then the page linked to doesn't address the gun issue at all (which is really just an inference from the decision). It seems like instead of listing all of the cases as links, it would make more sense to discuss the parts of the case relating to gun control and then place the link to either the story or the Supreme Court's page for the case so that readers can read the case for themselves without having to infer all that info from the link.
The US v. Cruikshank case is similar in it's relation to the gun control issue, in that the decision has nothing to do with gun control, only some of the definitions and language do. Just a suggestion. This is my first 'post' on Wikipedia. I plan on submitting some articles in the coming weeks, but if I've said or done anything that might offend anybody or is out of the norm for Wiki users, please let me know.
Salami swami 05:57, Mar 4, 2004 (UTC)
This article, similar to the article on the Second Amendment until I changed it, pushed the "comma issue" right up front. I think this is totally bogus, and so I just removed it from this article. Some discussion remains in the article on the Second Amendment.
Here's the deal -- a handful of sources, including a mid-1800s printing of the Constitution commissioned by Congress, remove some of the more puzzling commas. It is hard to say what import this has. But in any event, I do not think that reputable scholars think much about this one way or the other. In any event, we should use the more common and contemporary version, and treat the comma issue as an aside.
The 'comma issue' is an interesting one, but the story of the comma issue is likely to be more about spurious analysis by armchair pseudo-scholars than about the law.
Now that my interest is piqued, I may write a whole page on it, gathering a ton of cites from here and there.
Katahon 14:50, 26 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Here's one source of a Bill or Rights WITHOUT so many commas in the gun clause
It is in the Bill Of Rights (BOR) copy described here:
http://www.williams.edu/resources/chapin/exhibits/founding.html
I graduated from Williams in 1977. On a subsequent visit, shortly after these documents went on display, I inspected the BOR sample on just this point and saw that it is indeed an instance of what, in the 21st century, we would call the "not clunky" comma usage. Those with an anti-gun preference on this issue NEVER mention that there were "not clunky" versions during the composition phase of the BOR; they want to keep it depicted as much as possible as an antique-sounding head-scratcher.
Doug Gross, Williams '77 __________________________
This article pimps the "gun rights"/"gun nut" point of view. Clearly it is not neutral.
- Well hop in there anon, and represent the other side if you want. Although this article does seem to represent the pro-gun side more, in no place does it make a statement of opinion. Just statements of what those advocates believe. Rhobite 15:46, Jul 21, 2004 (UTC)
WRT: "There are only a few hundred thousand lawfully owned fully automatic weapons. The bulk of these are owned and used in the motion picture industry." - This is untrue. The motion picture industry employs armorers who hold Class III dealer and manufacturer licenses from the BATFE, which allow them to purchase and/or manufacture non-transferrable automatic weapons. Many such weapons are specially made for a motion picture, then destroyed, or else kept in the armory of the production company or whichever of its contractors employs that armorer. Furthermore, the ban on civilian purchasing of post 1986 manufactured automatic weapons only applies to natural persons. Corporations and law enforcement agencies are not included in this restriction. Among these are included the body guard/PI firm employed by anti-gun actress/activist Rosie O'Donnell. - Mike Lorrey
Indeed, there may be a historical regularity in that totalitarian regimes pass gun control legislation as a first step of their reign of terror. The sequence is supposed to be gun registration, followed some time later by confiscation. Nazi legislation is the most famous example of this sequence, but it also occurred in Marxist regimes.
The nazis did not start gun control in germany. It was imposed by the treaty of versaies that ended WW1. They in fact lifted it near the end of WW2. The rest is true.
- A couple of corrections:
- 1) The Nazis did pass gun control. See the German National Weapons Law of 1934, or Reichsgeletsblatt . It was used to disarm many citizens, including of course Jews. In regards to the treaty of Versailles, you are quoting facts with the detail of a junior high history book. Yes, the Germans were disarmed, but I highly doubt they passed specific gun control measures for its individual citizens. Only restrictions on the German Army and Navy, not personal ownership. If you happen to have a copy of the treaty handy and would like to show me where personal firearm ownership was regulated, please send me the info.
- 2) Mike, normal run of the mill corporations CANNOT purchase post-86 automatic firearms. Otherwise anybody could incorporate himself and make the purchase. There is surely a very small sub-class of government approved security corporations that may qualify, but your general statement of "Corporations and law enforcement agencies are not included in this restriction" is not correct. Wodan 00:09, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)
My radical restructuring
This article was a POV mess. I trimmed the fat (e.g. the constitution was covered twice) and also removed all the POV material. What's left is thin in some areas, but far better than what was there before. This article exists to describe gun politics in the U.S., not to battle them out. Meelar (talk) 16:35, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)
My 2 removals
I removed 2 phrases:
- "although ironically the U.S. revolution..."--these are entirely different circumstances, and the use of "ironically" clearly insinuates that the side believing an armed citizenry could overthow the US govt is correct. See Wikipedia:Words to avoid (I think that's the right page).
- The problem with your Non-NPOV on this is that given that the US gov't came into being through an uprising of an armed citizenry, and given that they created that government, and it cannot hold any powers that the people themselves do not have, it is clear from a logical perspective that if the US government holds ANY legitimacy (as opposed, to, say, merely being a rebellious province of the British Empire that Queen Lizzie hasn't gotten around to reclaiming yet) that legitimacy arises purely from the inherent right of an armed populace to rise up and reform their government by armed insurrection.Mlorrey 07:32, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
- "gun rights advocates point to the inherent safety"--gun control advocates would argue that you're not inherently safer carrying a gun. Non-NPOV.
- Fine, have them point out valid, peer reviewed and reproduced studies proving their claims. They can't. Gun owners can and do, to which gun controllers stick their fingers in their ears and call out "neener neener, I'm not listening" or try to smear the authors with vile attacks which do not impugn the science in any way.Mlorrey 07:32, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
I hope these are acceptable. The rest of your edits were very useful, and covered important gaps I had left. Thanks. Best, Meelar (talk) 01:24, Apr 29, 2005 (UTC)
I've reworded those two paragraphs. I took the words "loaded gun" out as that seemed inappropriate and redundant for an "armed citizen." I've also reworded from my previous "inherent safety" to "gun right advocates argue..." to make it balanced as you suggested. Plus a small redoing on the revolution/constitution aspect of it. Let me know what you think. Wodan 02:38, Apr 29, 2005 (UTC)
- Seems good to me--thanks. I've also removed the cleanup tag--hope you don't mind. Again, best wishes, Meelar (talk) 19:15, Apr 29, 2005 (UTC)
- We'll see how long this lasts. :) Wodan 23:45, Apr 29, 2005 (UTC)
Executive Branch Positions
I dispute that the collective rights view was the view of the executive branch from 1934 through 2002. Ronald Reagan and George HW Bush were both lifetime NRA members and stated on numerous occasions that they believed it was an individual right, as has frmr AG Ed Meese. The claim that the collective view was the 'de facto' position is false revisionist history promoted by the Bradyistas.Mlorrey 07:37, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
- Regarding this issue--check out, e.g., an article in the NY Times from May 8, 2002 with the headline "U.S., in a Shift, Tells Justices Citizens Have a Right to Guns". To read the whole article, you'll need Lexis-Nexis or a similar database, or you can buy it off the Times' website for a couple dollars, but I've reproduced the lead below.
- Reversing decades of official government policy on the meaning of the Second Amendment, the Justice Department told the Supreme Court for the first time late Monday that the Constitution "broadly protects the rights of individuals" to own firearms
- No, it doesn't, however I will refrain from stating my opinion of anybody who looks to the New York Times as a paragon of fairness, truth, or accuracy in reporting. The fact is that Reagan and Bush I were both lifetime NRA members and believed gun ownership was an individual right.
- "We will never disarm any American who seeks to protect his or her family from fear and harm." -- President Ronald Reagan
- "I've always felt a special bond with members of your group," President Reagan told the NRA Legislative Session. "You live by Lincoln's words, 'Important principles may and must be inflexible.' Your philosophy puts its trust in people. So you insist individuals be held accountable for their actions. The NRA believes America's laws were made to be obeyed and that our constitutional liberties are just as important today as 200 years ago. And by the way, the Constitution does not say Government shall decree the right to keep and bear arms. The Constitution says 'the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.'"
- "As we crack down on criminals," the President told the crowd, "we are trying to move forward on another front: to reform the firearms laws which needlessly interfere with the rights of legitimate gun owners like yourselves. We are working closely with your leadership and congressional supporters such as Senator McClure and Congressman Volkmer. I look forward to signing a bill that truly protects the rights of law-abiding citizens, without diminishing the effectiveness of criminal law enforcement against the misuse of firearms."
- A comic routine in Las Vegas in 1980 featured a debate between presidential contenders Ronald Reagan and Jimmy Carter on the matter of gun control, Walter Cronkite presiding. "What about atom bombs, Governor Reagan? Do you believe the Constitution guarantees the right of individuals to have atom bombs?"
- "Well, Mr. Cronkite," the comedian answered pensively, "just small atom bombs."
- I think it is rather conclusive that Reagan overtly supported the individual right to keep and bear arms.
- Eight U.S. Presidents have been NRA members. They are Ulysses S. Grant, Theodore Roosevelt, William Howard Taft, Dwight D. Eisenhower, John F. Kennedy, Richard M. Nixon, Ronald Reagan and George Bush.
- "The one weapon every man, soldier, sailor, or airman should be able to use effectively is the rifle. It is always his weapon of personal safety in an emergency, and for many it is the primary weapon of offense and defense. Expertness in its use cannot be overemphasized." --General Dwight D. Eisenhower (Note: there is no military rank called "man".)
- When and if you come back with a valid, reputable source claiming that official Exec. branch policy was the individualist interpretation, then I'll discuss it with you. What the individual president's thought here is beside the point--what's at issue is the official stance taken by the executive branch as a whole. Even if Reagan disagreed with the policy, he never changed it, and thus the sentence is accurate as it stands in my version. Meelar (talk) 14:09, May 19, 2005 (UTC)
- This is rich. The presidents opinion isn't policy? Mlorrey 01:59, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
User:Mlorrey's version
Hi. I'd like to contest your version of the article--it contains several things that are non-neutral. Please remember, Wikipedia is written in an neutral manner--click the link to see our full neutrality policy. Also, Wikipedia is not a place to argue political disputes, so try to see both sides of the issue on talk, even if you think you're right and the other side is clearly wrong.
Now, as for your version:
- " ignoring the question of whether it is already tyrannical simply by being too large for the citizenry to bring under control if need be."--the correct size of government isn't really the point at issue here. This phrasing is irrelevant and is a loaded question (non-neutral) so I've removed it.
- I hope you would reconsider this in light of the May 10th passage of the REAL ID Act. I don't think it is possible for anyone to objectively and neutrally claim the US isn't slipping into fascist tyranny rather quickly. The fact is that the other side IS ignoring this question entirely.Mlorrey 22:33, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
- But that's your opinion. Please read our neutrality policy. The article cannot take sides in a dispute. Meelar (talk) 14:07, May 19, 2005 (UTC)
- Anything I say which you disagree with is "my opinion" apparently.Mlorrey 01:56, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
- But that's your opinion. Please read our neutrality policy. The article cannot take sides in a dispute. Meelar (talk) 14:07, May 19, 2005 (UTC)
- I hope you would reconsider this in light of the May 10th passage of the REAL ID Act. I don't think it is possible for anyone to objectively and neutrally claim the US isn't slipping into fascist tyranny rather quickly. The fact is that the other side IS ignoring this question entirely.Mlorrey 22:33, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
- "while these same advocates tend to believe that their votes were ignored in the 2000 and/or 2004 presidential elections."--again, non-neutral. Pointing out the alleged flaws in one side's argument, without attributing them to critics, is non-neutral.
- Pointing out the flaws in the anti-gun argument, when other writers are only pointing out flaws in the pro-gun argument is, in aggregate, neutral. It is the neutrality of the consensus that matters, not the individual contributions of individual contributors.Mlorrey 22:33, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
- If you feel the article is non-neutral, the answer is to make it neutral, not to insert your own non-neutal opinions. Again, Wikipedia is not a place for political debate. Meelar (talk) 14:07, May 19, 2005 (UTC)
- I have attempted this, and you will continue to insist that anything which diverges from YOUR OPINION is therefore non-neutral. You don't get to define your opinion as neutrality.Mlorrey 01:56, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
- If you feel the article is non-neutral, the answer is to make it neutral, not to insert your own non-neutal opinions. Again, Wikipedia is not a place for political debate. Meelar (talk) 14:07, May 19, 2005 (UTC)
- Pointing out the flaws in the anti-gun argument, when other writers are only pointing out flaws in the pro-gun argument is, in aggregate, neutral. It is the neutrality of the consensus that matters, not the individual contributions of individual contributors.Mlorrey 22:33, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
- "This view is supported by a quotation of WWII Japanese Admiral Yamomoto to Togo, in advising against an invasion of the US mainland, "there is a rifle behind every blade of grass," in referring to the popular and common ownership of firearms in the US"--a couple problems here. First, the evidence is cherry-picked; second, providing evidence for one side, while attacking the arguments and soundness of the other side (see above) is non-neutral--it looks like this article is supporting the pro-gun argument. Removed.
- It isn't cherry picked, it was the only event in two centuries of US history that the US was attacked on its own territory (the War of 1812 and 9/11 being the only other comparable events) and we have a direct quote from the engineer of that event. His opinions of the capabilities of the gun owners of the United States is entirely germaine to this argument, and leaving it out is non-neutral of you.Mlorrey 22:33, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
- "The phrasing 'this view is supported by' clearly implies that the article agrees with that view, which isn't kosher. Meelar (talk) 14:07, May 19, 2005 (UTC)
- I am open to a suggestion for what you view as a neutral way to phrase it, but that quote IS going to wind up in there no matter how much you try to revise history.Mlorrey 01:56, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
- "The phrasing 'this view is supported by' clearly implies that the article agrees with that view, which isn't kosher. Meelar (talk) 14:07, May 19, 2005 (UTC)
- It isn't cherry picked, it was the only event in two centuries of US history that the US was attacked on its own territory (the War of 1812 and 9/11 being the only other comparable events) and we have a direct quote from the engineer of that event. His opinions of the capabilities of the gun owners of the United States is entirely germaine to this argument, and leaving it out is non-neutral of you.Mlorrey 22:33, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
- "despite historical anecdotes such as the above as well as citations of other totalitarians who were deterred by armed populaces in Switzerland, Finland, etc."--see above. We're not here to make arguments for one side or the other.
- Then why is this article so biased against gun owners?Mlorrey 22:33, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
Meelar (talk) 08:25, May 15, 2005 (UTC)
- What, so you can change it back again?Mlorrey 01:56, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
Non-Neutral Statement
"The Clinton administration BATF study of illegal firearms in the black market estimated that as many as 4 million illegal fully automatic firearms had either been illegally smuggled into the USA or illegally constructed within the USA."
Given the ruling in US v. Stewart (9th Circuit), it is non-neutral to refer to home-made or home-altered machine guns which are not registered under the NFA as "illegal". The court clearly says that home-construction of machine guns is outside the commerce clause power of congress and the BATF and is therefore not 'illegal'. Please correct this non-NPOV.Mlorrey 22:39, 18 May 2005 (UTC)