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:::::::::::I've removed the disputed claims re: Republicans and Russia from the lede. If they are re-added without consensus, the offending editor will be reported for disruptive editing.--[[User:Namiba]] 18:12, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::::Can you explain why this reporting from the New York Times and NBC News is disputed? I'm not seeing any sources disputing the NYTimes or NBC News reporting in the main body of the article. [[User:Superb Owl|Superb Owl]] ([[User talk:Superb Owl|talk]]) 01:56, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::::::[[WP:NPOV]], basically. You are giving far too much [[WP:weight]] to a couple of pieces, which themselves are from well-known Democratic Party supporting news sources.--[[User:Namiba]] 02:58, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
== Repeated NPOV Concerns @Namiba @Mt.FijiBoiz ==
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Wiki Education assignment: Introduction to Policy Analysis
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 28 March 2022 and 30 May 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Mcampo-06 (article contribs).
"Playing spoiler"
This section needs to be written clearly in order to avoid POV. There has been edit-warring and I am starting this discussion to avoid further conflict. The 'spoiler' issue has been discussed for decades, with partisans on both sides making arguments. As such, it should be made clear that this is an accusation, not a statement of fact. Moreover, the partisan nature of this criticism needs to be noted. Please comment here before making further edits.--User:Namiba 19:20, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
- Pinging User:Superb Owl.--User:Namiba 19:22, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
- Hi @Namiba, I felt the edits were productive back-and-forth and am happy to discuss them further here. Hopefully I was able to show with my most recent quotes and citations that it's not just Democrats viewing the Green Party as a spoiler, but Republicans and Moscow have been witnessed promoting the Green Party as well. Superb Owl (talk) 21:08, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
Proposed lede
(Updated) The Green Party of the United States (GPUS) is a left-wing[1] federation of Green state political parties in the United States.[2] Of the nearly 600,000 elected officials across the U.S.,[3] 143 politicians[4] (<0.00025%) are members of the Green Party. The Party has, as of 2023, never achieved or come close to achieving representation in any federal or statewide offices[5] and had a 2022 membership of 234,120[6] (or roughly 0.07% of 333,287,557[7] Americans).
The party's best known for vote splitting through their third-party tickets in US presidential elections, including the 2000 presidential election, when Ralph Nader won 97,488 votes in Florida where George W. Bush (R) beat the greener Al Gore (D) by only 537 votes.[8] More recently, evidence arose that Moscow had promoted the party, whose ticket may have tilted the 2016 election in favor of Donald Trump.[9] ~ Superb Owl (talk) 19:48, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
- References
- ^ "Green Party of the United States – National Committee Voting – Proposal Details". Green Party US. Retrieved August 14, 2019.
- ^ "Green Party". ballotpedia.org. Retrieved August 14, 2019.
- ^ "How many politicians are there in the USA? (Infographic)". PoliEngine. Retrieved 2023-05-23.
- ^ "Elections". www.gp.org. Retrieved 2023-05-23.
- ^ "Featured Elected Officials". www.gp.org. Retrieved 2023-05-23.
- ^ Winger, Richard. "December 2022 Ballot Access News Print Edition". Ballot Access News. Retrieved March 19, 2023.
- ^ Bureau, US Census. "2022 National and State Population Estimates Press Kit". Census.gov. Retrieved 2023-05-23.
- ^ "The Nader Effect". www.cbsnews.com. 2004-02-23. Retrieved 2023-05-23.
- ^ "Russians launched pro-Jill Stein social media blitz to help Trump, reports say". NBC News. Retrieved 2023-05-11.
- No, just no. This new lede includes extremely biased language and gives undue weight to numerous topics, while also removing much relevant content. The Green Party being considered a spoiler is already mentioned in lede; though, I think a mention of the party's ties to Russia should likely be included in the lede. Mt.FijiBoiz (talk) 19:55, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
- I see why it's not a finished product, but I'm wondering why the lede spends so little on explaining how notable the party is and what it's known for - basically, if someone who knows nothing about the US greens stumbles upon this page, they probably want to know how significant the party is and what it's known for (which it feels like the current lede does not accomplish) Superb Owl (talk) 21:48, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
- I strongly oppose this introduction. As stated above, it contains extremely biased language and emphasizes the party's perceived shortcomings.--User:Namiba 22:17, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
- Can someone articulate then what makes the party notable beyond the above-mentioned credible allegations of spoiling elections? Superb Owl (talk) 22:34, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
- It really sounds like you have an axe to grind against the Green Party. You also sound unfamiliar with Wikipedia's policies on notability.--User:Namiba 23:44, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
- Notability guidelines mention "significant coverage" - the party generates its most significant coverage due to its third party presidential tickets, where the controversies around spoiling and the support from Russia have likely received the most attention. Absent any other evidence of significant coverage in the same realm as these topics, it seems that they should be front and center in the lede Superb Owl (talk) 00:29, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
- Superb Owl, it is highly improper to edit as you are, i.e. putting controversial claims into the article while a discussion is ongoing. I urge you to stop edit-warring and to build consensus, which thus far you clearly do not have.--User:Namiba 01:07, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
- @Namiba, I am getting the sense that your political view conflicts with that of the information in these reputable sources. If you have substantive issues with the edits, I've been hoping to hear what those are to improve the article, otherwise please leave this space for more constructive discussions beyond "I don't like these edits." Superb Owl (talk) 01:15, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
- @Superb Owl. you cannot just write statements that you have no proof of and place [citation needed] after it and think that isn't a violation of Wikipedia policy. You have written multiple statements in the article that violate NPOV, such as "Nader and his supporters like to deflect blame elsewhere" and then allege other editors violate NPOV. You have a history of adding false statements to other Wikipedia articles, usually related to Russia or other European topics, and have been warned about doing so in the future. Yet you continue to do so on this article. Why? Mt.FijiBoiz (talk) 06:00, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
- I'm happy to take this controversial section off the main page and to the talk page since that seems like the safer course. I'm hoping to have a more constructive dialogue here than has been had over the past few days. Superb Owl (talk) 06:07, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
- I've removed the disputed claims re: Republicans and Russia from the lede. If they are re-added without consensus, the offending editor will be reported for disruptive editing.--User:Namiba 18:12, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
- Can you explain why this reporting from the New York Times and NBC News is disputed? I'm not seeing any sources disputing the NYTimes or NBC News reporting in the main body of the article. Superb Owl (talk) 01:56, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
- WP:NPOV, basically. You are giving far too much WP:weight to a couple of pieces, which themselves are from well-known Democratic Party supporting news sources.--User:Namiba 02:58, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
- Can you explain why this reporting from the New York Times and NBC News is disputed? I'm not seeing any sources disputing the NYTimes or NBC News reporting in the main body of the article. Superb Owl (talk) 01:56, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
- I've removed the disputed claims re: Republicans and Russia from the lede. If they are re-added without consensus, the offending editor will be reported for disruptive editing.--User:Namiba 18:12, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
- I'm happy to take this controversial section off the main page and to the talk page since that seems like the safer course. I'm hoping to have a more constructive dialogue here than has been had over the past few days. Superb Owl (talk) 06:07, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
- @Superb Owl. you cannot just write statements that you have no proof of and place [citation needed] after it and think that isn't a violation of Wikipedia policy. You have written multiple statements in the article that violate NPOV, such as "Nader and his supporters like to deflect blame elsewhere" and then allege other editors violate NPOV. You have a history of adding false statements to other Wikipedia articles, usually related to Russia or other European topics, and have been warned about doing so in the future. Yet you continue to do so on this article. Why? Mt.FijiBoiz (talk) 06:00, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
- @Namiba, I am getting the sense that your political view conflicts with that of the information in these reputable sources. If you have substantive issues with the edits, I've been hoping to hear what those are to improve the article, otherwise please leave this space for more constructive discussions beyond "I don't like these edits." Superb Owl (talk) 01:15, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
- Superb Owl, it is highly improper to edit as you are, i.e. putting controversial claims into the article while a discussion is ongoing. I urge you to stop edit-warring and to build consensus, which thus far you clearly do not have.--User:Namiba 01:07, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
- Notability guidelines mention "significant coverage" - the party generates its most significant coverage due to its third party presidential tickets, where the controversies around spoiling and the support from Russia have likely received the most attention. Absent any other evidence of significant coverage in the same realm as these topics, it seems that they should be front and center in the lede Superb Owl (talk) 00:29, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
- It really sounds like you have an axe to grind against the Green Party. You also sound unfamiliar with Wikipedia's policies on notability.--User:Namiba 23:44, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
- Can someone articulate then what makes the party notable beyond the above-mentioned credible allegations of spoiling elections? Superb Owl (talk) 22:34, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
- I strongly oppose this introduction. As stated above, it contains extremely biased language and emphasizes the party's perceived shortcomings.--User:Namiba 22:17, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
- I see why it's not a finished product, but I'm wondering why the lede spends so little on explaining how notable the party is and what it's known for - basically, if someone who knows nothing about the US greens stumbles upon this page, they probably want to know how significant the party is and what it's known for (which it feels like the current lede does not accomplish) Superb Owl (talk) 21:48, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
Repeated NPOV Concerns @Namiba @Mt.FijiBoiz
@Namiba and @Mt.FijiBoiz have made repeated reversions and deletions of well-sourced and cited material on this page. The page, as of a few days ago, read like an advertisement for the party with little balance or neutrality to the most notable topics surrounding the party. This is not unusual, but am asking to see if there are any other editors following this page who can help to resolve these edit wars and disputes and who also wish to see both sides of the debate fully brought to light. Superb Owl (talk) 05:55, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
- It isn't well-sourced material. It is blatant NPOV violations that you place [citation needed] after. You have been warned about doing this on the Black, Manafort, Stone and Kelly and E-democracy pages, but now you are doing it on the Green Party article. Mt.FijiBoiz (talk) 06:00, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
- If you have a source that can say whether or not aid was solicited, that would be helpful. It seems likely that you are a party member given your most recent edits but if a citation is in your opinion lacking, I will continue asking for specific reasons why so that I can better understand your reasoning, which to this point is unclear. I really just want this page to show the full story. Superb Owl (talk) 06:05, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
- I am a Republican. Stop accusing people of being things they are not. Mt.FijiBoiz (talk) 06:28, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
- I stand corrected Superb Owl (talk) 06:41, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
- If you're going to make accusations against the subject of the article, you need strong reliable sources before you insert it into the article, and even then it has to be WP:DUE. If you're going to make accusations against another editor, consider not doing that. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 18:13, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
- User:Superb Owl, please revert yourself here. Your edit summary and your overall approach to editing this article clearly reflects that you are not interested in building consensus for changes. Your edits and sandbox indicate that you are attempting to minimize the Green Party through misleading statistics and unproven claims. If this editing continues, I will bring your edit-warring and overall POV approach to ANI.--User:Namiba 23:23, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
- Hi @Namiba, maybe you can provide evidence or an explanation as to why these statistics are misleading? Can you show what % of elected officials, for example, have no party affiliation? Superb Owl (talk) 23:37, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
- I am a Republican. Stop accusing people of being things they are not. Mt.FijiBoiz (talk) 06:28, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
- If you have a source that can say whether or not aid was solicited, that would be helpful. It seems likely that you are a party member given your most recent edits but if a citation is in your opinion lacking, I will continue asking for specific reasons why so that I can better understand your reasoning, which to this point is unclear. I really just want this page to show the full story. Superb Owl (talk) 06:05, 24 May 2023 (UTC)