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::::::::Yes, the [[Fitzgeralds]], otherwise known as ''Geraldine''. Among the many contributions of her dynasty to Irish history was [[Saint Patrick's Flag|this symbol]], chosen to represent the British order of chivalry associated with Ireland, and Ireland in the Union Flag. Was your point that historians of Irish stock cannot be trusted? --[[User:Sony-youth|<span style="font-family:Zapfino, sans-serif">sony-youth</span>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Sony-youth|pléigh]]</sup> 13:50, 24 June 2007 (UTC) |
::::::::Yes, the [[Fitzgeralds]], otherwise known as ''Geraldine''. Among the many contributions of her dynasty to Irish history was [[Saint Patrick's Flag|this symbol]], chosen to represent the British order of chivalry associated with Ireland, and Ireland in the Union Flag. Was your point that historians of Irish stock cannot be trusted? --[[User:Sony-youth|<span style="font-family:Zapfino, sans-serif">sony-youth</span>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Sony-youth|pléigh]]</sup> 13:50, 24 June 2007 (UTC) |
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:::::::If that had been my point, why would I have said "not that it matters" above? Please stop maligning my motives Sony. I only want an NPOV Wikipedia. Part of that is challenging the over-use or over-representation in articles of sources that are themselves POV. Standard WP stuff really. [[User:MarkThomas|MarkThomas]] 13:55, 24 June 2007 (UTC) |
Revision as of 13:55, 24 June 2007
An event mentioned in this article is a June 27 selected anniversary
Past entries in this famous discussion are archived in:
.1 , .2 , .3 , .4 , .5 , .6 , .7 , .8 , .9 (empty) , .10 (empty)...
Malthusian Argument
How come this article doesn't explicity mention population demographic. It is just buried in landholding arrangment/argument (which has implication that it was a fault of "British" system). I know Amartya Sen pointed out that many famine happen even when food are plenty and often the economic/political system is at fault. But he did examine population/food aspect first before making his case. Nothing of this kind is done in this article. As with any controvercial topic, narrative should start from "fact" (whatever that mean). Generally, narrative order or article should be in order of historical event (such as potatoe blight), followed by demographic fact (including population and deathtoll and immigration), followed by economic, plolitical and social argument. Why Genocide topic, which many, in the context of Irish famine, consider it as ideological topic or identity politics (i.e. silly ass argument on both side debate) is put at the begining? FWBOarticle
- For a number of reasons, but here's the best one: One of the essential elements of Malthus' model is the belief that "Population level is severely limited by subsistence" (quote: Malthus,1798 Essay). Malthus believed that a society's agricultural/industrial development would ultimately lead to: a) unsustainable population growth; b) overconsumption of native resources; and, c) inevitable economic collapse. Thus, if you were going to search for a Malthusian explanation to the Irish Potato Famine the only possible arguement is this: the British successfully avoided points a), b) and c) through the colonization of other regions throughout the world. This point may be entirely valid, but, at the same time, there is no question that the economic gain from the colonization of Ireland was irrelevant compared to the wealth that came from other regions colonized far later in history (India, the African colonies, North America). Furthermore, I've never seen a history which contends that the British really depended on resources which came from the Irish colony (that is, I've never seen a history which argued that, without this colony, the Empire would have been at a great risk of economic collapse). The same can not be said for the Indian and African possessions (without them, the British would have faced massive cuts, especially within the military). Finally, there is no debate among historians that the Irish, who existed at the lowest level of subsistence during the British colonial period, had a far more wholesome and diverse diet before the British invaded, destroyed the native polity and reduced the native population to a status little higher than Serfdom. Malthusian theory can be interesting, but I think you would be hard pressed to find someone who believes that it can be honestly applied to the plight of the Irish. --(Mingus ah um 21:21, 24 April 2006 (UTC))
I took out these two paragraphs because they are, well just terrible. "In 1851, about a quarter of Liverpool's population was Irish-born. The Famine is often seen as an initiator in the steep depopulation of Ireland in the 19th century; however, it is likely that real population began to fall in 1841 with the Famine accelerating any population changes already occurring. Some may argue the Famine was necessary to restore population equilibrium to Ireland given that population increased by 13–14% in the first three decades of the 19th century (using Thomas Malthus's idea of population expanding geometrically, resources increasing arithmetically), nonetheless there is a tendency among Irish historians to dispute this. Statistics show that between 1831 and 1841 population grew by only 5% so this gives more value to those who argue that population was already falling by 1844.
The mass exodus in the years following the famine must be seen in the context of overpopulation , industrial stagnation, land shortages, religious discrimination , declining agricultural employment and inadequate diet. These factors were already combining to choke off population growth by the 1830s. It would be wrong, therefore, to attribute all the population loss during the famine to the potato blight alone." Words and phrases like, likely, some may argue, often seen, a tendency, the use of Malthus and figures without any citations simply muddle the article. The second paragraph speaks for itself. The contextualization of the famine is so long as to make it pointless. If it is not explained properly in the main article than it is the main article that is doing something wrong. Most of the contexts are wrong. Ireland was not suffering from overpopulation, nor industrial stagnation (there was no industry to speak of), nor inadequate diet (contemporary European and English commentators often mention the health of the Irish population thanks to it milk and potato diet).
Exports to England
The authors fail to mention that a major contributing factor to the Potato famine was that a great portion of Ireland's other food crops, corn, wheat, etc. were being exported to England to feed the population there, leaving essentially ONLY Potatoes to feed Ireland.
- Well, these are commercial crops. Obviously, for these food to be allocated to famine relief, the government must purchase it then give it away for free. Of course, the failiure for Russell government to do so is attributed as the main reason crop failiure was transformed to famine.. Idea that there are direct link to total quantity of food and famine has been debunked. Yes, the fact that food being shiped out from famine stricken area seems perverse in subsistent economy. It is not so in more commercialised society. Feel free to present this POV anyway. I hear it's a popular POV in ireland. Vapour
"The fact that food is being shiped (sic)out from a famine stricken area seems perverse in subsitent economy. It is not so in more (sic) commercialized society." ??! Are you kidding with that statment? In a "commercialized society" with no moral compass at all maybe, a society of sociopaths with no ability to see beyond their wallet maybe. I come from as commercialized a society as can be found and it not only seems perverse to me but clear evidence of genocide. While my feelings regarding genocide are certainly my POV there is no question, based on the records kept by the British themselves, that Ireland, throughout the famine was a net exporter of food to England. There was no problem with the Irish production of wheat, rye, beef, poultry, pork or fish. The Irish catholic population was a subsistance population and worked almost exclusively on barter, the Irish rarely had or used currency, so "selling" them food would work only to the extent that they had some small amount of coins or currency. Once whatever supply of money was gone they were intentionally left to die. In reading the article I was looking to see if it contained just the point requested by the initial question.. is there a mention that Ireland during the potato famine was a food rich country? The reason I was looking for this reference was that for many many years while I was aware that there had been a potato famine and that the English government had done little to nothing to alleviate the plight of the Irish, I had always thought that Ireland had little to no food at all. Just saying potato famine, while technically accurate, does not truly bring out the horror of the situation. My only current edit of the article was to add Mr. Gallagher's book, Paddy's Lament to the additional reading list. This is an excellent work on the subject, and extremely well documented from British records. As soon as I can find my copy again, I will be able to add additional detail to the article.
I have reviewed the entire discussion portion of this article and have noticed that the fact that food was consistantly exported from Ireland has come up on numerous occasions, as this fact is IMO extremely important in a basic understanding of the life of the Irish during this time, and is an undisputed historic fact, I feel that the main body of the article should contain this, possibly with some figures. I intend therefore to add a reference to this fact barring someone talking me out of it here in the discussion. This may take a little while as I have to hunt up the numbers and the relevant references.--Casement 05:39, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
- Such exports are often cited as evidence of deliberate genocide or a moral injustice. The fact is that in a free market economy, the farmers and traders had their own markets which they continued to supply within and outside Ireland. The starving Irish were a world away to them and as such the exporters were no more immoral than the multi-national companies and countries of today continuing to do business as normal when parts of the world are starving. In an ideal world, both situations should not happen, but neither are consious evils of the purpetrators. Ultimately the cultural nature and indifference of the British Government institutions and even, let's not forget, many wealthier Irish was the reason such a tradegy could occur. Dainamo 14:30, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
- England raped & stole from Ireland (murdered too) as it did to other counties it took over. They didn't CARE about the Irish only about their Greed. If the Irish did 10% to the British what they did to us you would never hear the end of it. Culnacréann
09:58, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
- England raped & stole from Ireland (murdered too) as it did to other counties it took over. They didn't CARE about the Irish only about their Greed. If the Irish did 10% to the British what they did to us you would never hear the end of it. Culnacréann
"many wealthier Irish was the reason such a tradegy could occur" This has been comprehensively dispelled by Cormac Ó Gradá, Peter M. Solar and Peter Grey. I suggest you do some historical research before pawning your economic beliefs as the touchstone of nineteenth-century history.
I wish I had the time to clean up this article. Hopefully some scholar will take pity on this site and reorganise it.
Source of blight
It says here that "Plant pathologist Jean Beagle Ristanio speculates that the pathogen (not a fungus but an oomycete) arrived in Europe on a shipment of potatoes from South America in the 1830s."
But in school I remember being told that the blight caame over with a guano shipment. 87.33.53.61 13:08, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Name of Article
Why is this article called the "Irish potato famine" rather than just The Great Famine? Never heard the famine referred to as the "Potato Famine". The potatoes didn't starve; the people did. (Sarah777 08:22, 9 June 2007 (UTC)) Wow! A lot of unreferenced pov masquerading as "discussion" here; I've removed some of it. (Sarah777 08:54, 9 June 2007 (UTC))
- Sarah777 Your right in all of that you say. I have a real problem with the use of the term Famine in itself, as there was not a lack of food in the country. Another concern I have is the amount of edits and minor edits which do not include any references or sources. I see a lot of edits to grammar, punctuation and the like with no attempt to cite sources. That is why I placed the tag on the page, all to no effect. This article will never get of the ground unless some editor makes a bold move to remove all unreferenced material, even if this means reducing it to a stub. I would much prefare quality to quantity any day. Regards --Domer48 09:42, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
- An editor, without any knowledge of Irish history, about 5 years ago created this page. It's the first time that I have heard it called The potato famine, WP is guilty of an Neologism on this one. The name can be changed on request here Wikipedia:Requested moves. 20:22, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
- Given the number of links a move/redirect would be the most practical solution; Wikipedia:Requested moves is probably unnecessary in this case. The problem is the new name - in Ireland the episode is known universally and simply as The Famine or The Great Famine. Other famines, in Ireland or abroad are qualified to distinguish them from the famine. Doubtless we'll get objections that to a wider audience in the English-speaking world it isn't so clear which famine "the" refers to! The Great Famine (Ireland) seems the only non-neologistic name. Any thoughts before I make the move? (Sarah777 20:49, 10 June 2007 (UTC))
- Probably the better ones would be
The Great Famine (Ireland) or
Great Irish Famine
Yup, agreed there have been great famines in Africa of course, China. But the Great Irish Famine was more about the degradation of a people too, the current name is just too narrow. About 750 links, I'd help change some of them. Is there a BOT available that can do these changes? 21:21, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
- Probably the better ones would be
- Redirect means the link changes are not urgent; they can de done over a long period - or not at all! (Sarah777 22:27, 10 June 2007 (UTC))
Sarah777, I would go along with the Great Irish Famine, though I lack the experiance on redirects more than willing to help though? --Domer48 12:26, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
- I would prefer Great Irish Famine, with a dab to the 1740s famine. Therefore, if that was the case, then Wikipedia:Requested moves would have to be called in to help with the change. Maybe proposed change should be put on the Irish Notice Board, and left for a few days. 14:27, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
- Support a move. There's already a Great Irish Famine (1740-1741) - so how about Great Irish Famine (1845-1849). Alternatively, as people are highly unlikely to search under that name, [Great Famine (Ireland)]. Suggest also including a dab link to Great Famine. BastunBaStun not BaTsun 14:58, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
- Support Great Irish Famine Usually referred to as The Great Famine, but probably in the long term this name won't last on WP. That's why Great Irish Famine rings best, IMHO. Adding the years makes it longish. Difficult call! 15:07, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
- Support a move to the Great Irish Famine Brendandh 15:34, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
- Comment - Great Irish Famine is a wee bit neolog, but we must put in "Irish" somewhere or no doubt we'll get flak from folk writing about greater famines (if that's the right phrase). And as there were at least two great famines in Ireland maybe we redirect to Great Irish Famine and have a disamb at the top pointing out the reader may mean 1740 if 1845 isn't what he's looking for. Great Irish Famine already does this with a separate disambig page; but (1845-1849) redirects to the starving spuds! (Sarah777 20:12, 11 June 2007 (UTC))
- Support per Bastun's rationale - Alison ☺ 20:14, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
- Support - I'll go with Bastun's idea.(Sarah777 20:59, 11 June 2007 (UTC))
- Support, either that or The Irish Holocaust.--Vintagekits 21:25, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
- Oppose - "Irish potato famine" is a (the most?) common name (see [scholar.google.com] or [books.google.com]) and most accurately disambiguates between this any other "great famine" in Ireland and/or elsewhere. It also puts it in the context of the wider European Potato Famine, of which it was a part (in terms of the blight). Calling it the potato famine avoids confusing it with a "great famine" in the classical sense (of a country without food), when in fact far "greater" famines had occurred before without the same lasting consequence. The potato, and its significance in the cause of the famine, is central understanding it and should not be removed from the name. --sony-youthpléigh 22:22, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
- Fair point, but this sounds more like an argument for Bastun's proposal. Great + Ireland + disambiguation ... - Alison ☺ 22:30, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
- OK. In keeping with the almost universal consensus with reference to WP:SNOW there is no serious opposition to the move, Done. (Sarah777 22:46, 11 June 2007 (UTC))
- Comment: "WP:SNOW" and "universal"? Where did I hear those words before? And why are you replying to my post to announce it? Oh ... !
- There's obviously enough dissent at this moment to hold off the moving, IMO. Apart from the fact that a copy/paste move without preserving the edit history is a very Bad Thing (hint, hint) - Alison ☺ 23:05, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
- OK. In keeping with the almost universal consensus with reference to WP:SNOW there is no serious opposition to the move, Done. (Sarah777 22:46, 11 June 2007 (UTC))
- Fair point, but this sounds more like an argument for Bastun's proposal. Great + Ireland + disambiguation ... - Alison ☺ 22:30, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
(ec) I see Sarah's gone ahead and changed it now. Fair 'nuff. I'm fixing double-redirects now. However ....
What are we going to do with Irish potato famine (legacy)? - Alison ☺ 22:47, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
- (meeps) - I think we're going to need a 'bot for this - Alison ☺ 22:50, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
- Oops! - never mind. VintageKits reverted ... - Alison ☺ 22:50, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
- *sigh* And Sarah re-reverted, which I re-re-reverted, but now I'm somehow at Great Irish Famine instead of Irish Potato Famine... Sarah - the discussion is not over - its barely started - and WP:SNOW does not apply. A couple of things - 1. there are several possible homes for the article, still being discussed. Let that debate continue, please. 2. When consensus is reached, it can be moved (not redirected), thus preserving the edit history (though too late now...) 3. I spotted the proposed move only sometime this morning when it was flagged on the Irish noticeboard. Many other editors will not yet have seen the notice there. Give them a chance to have some input. BastunBaStun not BaTsun 23:12, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
- "23:02, 11 June 2007 Sarah777 (Talk | contribs) (46,306 bytes) (restore; many weren't aware of the deletion of "British Isles and Ireland" - discussion lasted MUCH shorter time)" Ah - things become clear. 'BI & Ireland' was a POV fork, plain and simple.
- Annnyway... before we were so rudely interrupted... the options available are-
- 1. [Irish Potato Famine] - where it was.
- 2. [Great Irish Famine] - where it is.
- 3. [Great Irish Famine (1845-1849)] - to differentiate from Great Irish Famine (1740-1741).
- 4. [Great Famine (Ireland)].
- Any others? BastunBaStun not BaTsun 23:26, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
- Yeah OK guys; I'm heading into 3RR country here; so I'll pack it up for now. To think I could have written perhaps three Irish geo-stubs if it weren't for my addiction to the TRUTH and the ELIMINATION of POV! Anyway, for what it's worth, I think [Great Irish Famine] is the obvious one; it's the nearest to what the actual victims called it. An Gorta Mór; the Great Genocide. (Sarah777 23:45, 11 June 2007 (UTC))
- Let's be clear about the nomenclature. It was always called The Great Famine. That doesn't mean that there weren't other great famines elsewhere in the world, Africa, Ethiopia, Sudan, China and more. But in the English speaking world, and in En/Wikipedia especially, we must adhere to the academic name for this particular episode in Ireland's history. Therefore I reiterate that the name should be The Great Famine. Also we must avoid original research here, and also avoid a brand new neologism. And I take Allie's point, excellent! -00:35, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
- Agree. Only went for Great Irish Famine as a compromise, reaching out to the others. But of course you are right; The Great Famine was always the common name for the Great Genocide. (Sarah777 01:07, 12 June 2007 (UTC))
- No, the common name for the Great Genocide is The Holocaust. BastunBaStun not BaTsun 09:21, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
- Oppose and reiterate the reasons cited by sony-youth. Let's please give this a little more time before renaming or making major changes. Geeman 05:55, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
- Oppose- it is known as the Irish Potato Famine in the United Kingdom and the British Empire. Astrotrain 07:50, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
- Comment - If I make a comment like that I would be accused of trolling.(Sarah777 08:33, 12 June 2007 (UTC))
Sarah777, I would not even rise to a comment like that, and since they have never edited on this article I would consider stalking is what drives them. --Domer48 08:59, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
- Perhaps I should expand- it was reported as the "Irish Potato Famine" in the press in the UK and BE (given the event occured during the time of the BE). That name is still used in the UK. Not having edited the article does not deprive one of the right to comment. Astrotrain 09:23, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
- Astro, I certainly don't say you've no right to comment and the remark wasn't directed at you - as I guess you are aware. But the person I was addressing has taking on the thankless task of policing and editing my talkpage remarks. So you miss the odd bit!(Sarah777 10:00, 12 June 2007 (UTC))
- Sarah, your opinions about me are well known, as is your love of crusading against editors you disagree with. Wikipedia is not a war. Consensus was to remove the article you created as a POV fork. Live with it, and stop harrassing me. --sony-youthpléigh 10:29, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
- Astro, I certainly don't say you've no right to comment and the remark wasn't directed at you - as I guess you are aware. But the person I was addressing has taking on the thankless task of policing and editing my talkpage remarks. So you miss the odd bit!(Sarah777 10:00, 12 June 2007 (UTC))
- Perhaps I should expand- it was reported as the "Irish Potato Famine" in the press in the UK and BE (given the event occured during the time of the BE). That name is still used in the UK. Not having edited the article does not deprive one of the right to comment. Astrotrain 09:23, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
- Support [Great Irish Famine] is the obvious one;--Domer48 08:00, 12 June 2007 (UTC) P.S Good move
Note: Just a quick bit of google-fu.
"Irish Potato Famine": about 160,000 results
"Great Famine" +Ireland: about 128,000 results
"Great Irish Famine": about 48,900 results
"Great Genocide" about 133 results (many of which, judging by the first page, are not actually about Ireland).
What does this prove? Well, nothing really, except that any of the first three would be valid names for the article. It does show that 'Great Irish Famine' isn't actually a neologism. Given that there are/were other famines, also called 'Great', then personally I think "Great Irish Famine" is probably the best place for the article on WP, given the need for disambiguation and that in Ireland (where, after all, it happened) its most commonly known as the Great Famine. BastunBaStun not BaTsun 15:24, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
- And what's your opinion about "Irish Potato Famine"? I see it came out tops of the 'google-fu', but you just didn't like the look of it?--sony-youthpléigh 15:42, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
- No, not especially, because all my life I've heard I've heard it referred to as either "the Great Famine" or just "the Famine", and therefore its what I'm used to. The same, I'd guess, as an English person assuming a reference to "The Civil War" means one thing while an American might assume something else. BastunBaStun not BaTsun 16:01, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
- Aahhh ... WP:IDONTLIKEIT with a splash of WP:IDONTKNOWIT into the mix - sweet! So, despite "Great Irish Famine" being the lowest of the common name returns from Google, you're happy with it? My issue here is not what name the article goes under - Great Irish Famine, isn't such a bad name as to keep me awake at night (although, it is quiet a weak neologism, Great Famine (Ireland, 1845—51) would be more accurate, and less made-up). It really makes no odds; "Irish Potato Famine" will redirect here anyway. The problem I have is with the uninformed bandwagon-like discussion. The original proposal was to change "another pov-ridden name" - pure rubbish! This is a standard and useful name - see Britannica for example - as your 'Google-fu' (love the word!) showed maybe even the most common one. That simple fact can be seen by looking through books.google.com and scholar.google.com too. What ensued was rampant "oh-my-god"-ism and "I don't like it"-itus. The only other contributer to give a reasons cited that the article was made by "an editor, without any knowledge of Irish history ... It's the first time that I have heard it called The potato famine, WP is guilty of an Neologism on this one." Ummmm, no, not even a slight neologism - in fact, one of the oldest names for the famine as Astrotrain pointed out - but then assumptions such as the original creator being "without any knowledge of Irish history" are easily made by someone who admits "it's the first time that I have heard it." Ignorance convinces the fool of his own genius. --sony-youthpléigh 19:47, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
- Sony, may I draw your attention to WP:CIVIL. There is no need for WP:SARCASM when making your point. (Sarah777 20:39, 12 June 2007 (UTC))
- You may, of course, Sarah - but as there was no sarcasm in my post above, and since I believe it was civil, it seems strange. --sony-youthpléigh 21:11, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
- Stop harassing me, now (see diff). I will not warn you again. --sony-youthpléigh 08:06, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
- (After edit conflict)What can I say, some editors are fond of the magical fruit ;-)
- As you can see from my initial response, Sony, I'd be happy with several options and made several suggestions. Discussion, compromise, consensus... rather than jumping the gun and slapping a redirect on. But to hopefully make clearer what I said earlier, the common name for the famine in Ireland is "The Great Famine". Some more google-fu - this time restricting the search to Irish pages:
- "Great Famine" +Ireland about 16,800
- "Irish potato famine" about 711.
- So the former term is nearly 24 times more commonly used than the latter - in Ireland. As the article is about something that happened in Ireland, the former name seems more appropriate.
- But as there are several such "Great Famines" around the world (even a previous one in Ireland), it needs something to disambig it - hence why I'd be okay with [Great Irish Famine]. You'll notice I did also suggest [Great Irish Famine (1845-1849)] and [Great Famine (Ireland)] and asked for other alternatives. BastunBaStun not BaTsun 23:55, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
- Don't really care much either way but you should compare like with like. "Potato famine" +Ireland [1]: 218,000. "Great famine" +ireland [2] 132,000. --Lo2u (T • C) 00:49, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
- Possibly, though I thought including +'Ireland' and 'Irish' would have been ok. Note, though, that the latter googling (done just before midnight) was done on google.ie, not .com, and restricted the search results to Irish pages - hence the smaller numbers. The larger numbers from earlier today were obtained by not restricting the search to Irish pages. BastunBaStun not BaTsun 00:57, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
- I see - was wondering about that. Thought it was the old Google IP problem mentioned on Talk:British Isles.
- Some editors aren't going to like this. I'm going to say it anyway. Paraphrasing what to the best of my knowledge is Wikipedia policy, common English speaking usage takes precedence - and Google can be used as a way of establishing what this might be. I'd suggest that to make a strong case from Google you might want to restrict your search to pages written in English but it's not really advisable to limit them to geographical regions - although self-identifying terminology might be used as further criteria.
- I'm willing to bet that 99.9% of pages mentioning "Ireland" and "potato famine" are talking about the very same "Great Famine" whereas "Great Famine" and "Ireland" might bring up a few false positives. The fact that "potato famine" yields fewer than 3,000 Google results in Ireland[3] is rather persuasive though. The score's 1-1 by these criteria, I think:
- 1. Most commonly used name in English
- 2. Current undisputed official name of entity
- 3. Current self-identifying name of entity
- --Lo2u (T • C) 01:22, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
- Possibly, though I thought including +'Ireland' and 'Irish' would have been ok. Note, though, that the latter googling (done just before midnight) was done on google.ie, not .com, and restricted the search results to Irish pages - hence the smaller numbers. The larger numbers from earlier today were obtained by not restricting the search to Irish pages. BastunBaStun not BaTsun 00:57, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
- Don't really care much either way but you should compare like with like. "Potato famine" +Ireland [1]: 218,000. "Great famine" +ireland [2] 132,000. --Lo2u (T • C) 00:49, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Surely Great Famine occured in Egypt in ancient times, so that doesn't seem a good name for this oage to me
Victorian era?
The article contains the following quote: The Famine occurred within the British imperial homeland at a time well into the modern prosperity of the Victorian and Industrial age during a time when Ireland was, even during the famine, a net exporter of food. This is patently wrong - the Victorian era didn't start until 1837, the Industrial Age didn't start until 1760 at the earliest (see Industrial Revolution) and at the time of the famine, Ireland was a self-governing country, not part of Great Britain. GrahamPadruig 01:06, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
- Hello GrahamPadruig, your points are quite valid, bar the point that Ireland was a self governing country. Ireland lost its parliament through the act of union in 1800. After this time Ireland was meant to become an integral part of the empire, the famine dispelled this myth with catastrophic consequences. You have also highlighted a continuing problem on this Article, that of unreferenced material. As an editor, you can challenge and remove any unreferenced material. Regards --Domer48 08:41, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
- Your dates are mixed up, I think. The famine was 1845-49, i.e. "well into the ... the Victorian [1837] and Industrial age [1760]." Ireland and Great Britain were unified in 1801 (i.e. Ireland lost self-goverance) and partition was in 1922 (i.e. the majority of Ireland re-gained self-goverance). Start-end dates for the Empire are hazy, but the 19th century is considered its hey-day. The famine occurred during this era i.e. "within the British imperial homeland." --sony-youthpléigh 09:06, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
- OK I was confused by the sub-heading "Great Irish Famine may also refer to Great Irish Famine (1740-1741)". I thought this article was referring to the Great Irish Famine. The fact that this confusion can occur is probably why in Britain we refer to the 1845 event as the "Irish POTATO Famine" (or just the Potato Famine for short) to differentiate it from the earlier famine, which was also called "Great". GrahamPadruig 22:44, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
- I doubt many people in Britain are even aware that there was a "Great" famine in Ireland in 1740-1741. (Sarah777 00:02, 20 June 2007 (UTC))
- I agree with you, Graham. See the discussion about the recent name change above. Sarah: evidently there are, and more informed than their Irish counterparts. So, 'Irish potato famine' was "another pov-ridden name" (diff) coined by and editor "without any knowledge of Irish history." (diff)? Let's see how many more confusions this creates. --sony-youthpléigh 06:53, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
- I also agree with Graham and I would also draw attention to the slightly misleading phrase "British Imperial Homeland" - this is obviously written in with the POV intention to highlight the evil Brits with all their wealth ignoring the suffering Irish, but the sad truth of those times was that the British "government" (not then officially an imperial one) was an equal-opportunity dismisser of humanitarian concerns both at home and abroad and treated the local working class with as much disdain as it could short of causing mass riots. One only has to consider the fact that more than 1/3 of children died in infancy at that time of diseases easily curable by a good basic diet to realise that there was precious little respect at "home" for the common person. The treatment of the Irish poor during the famine was despicable, but this really isn't primarily a nationalism issue, no matter how much some Irish people for understandable reasons would like to spin it that way and no matter how misleading the educational process in Ireland and the US has been on this issue. MarkThomas 07:48, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
- Sony, you appear to be implying that some British editors are more informed than their Irish counterparts. In this context, what exactly do you mean by Irish "counterpart"? I said I doubt that "many people in Britain" are even aware of the 1740 famine; I don't think I claimed that many people in Ireland are. The point I was making was that this point about "confusion" is a straw man. Also your comments appear to imply that I made a reference to "an editor without any knowledge of Irish history" having written the original article. (Please note that I am not disagreeing with the remark, but in a spirit of politeness and civility, pointing out that I'd hate to see it popping up as "evidence" in an RfC or something). Regards (Sarah777 08:01, 20 June 2007 (UTC))
- Sarah, how could I imply that you had said the second remark when I didn't attribute the first one to you? Also, did I not included diffs for each statement that explicity shows who said what?? Or are you trying bewilder discussion along your usual lines? My argument was as stated before. There are many famines known as the Great famine. "Let's see how many more confusions this creates." --sony-youthpléigh 09:02, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
- I find it very unlikely Sarah777 that you have never heard of the "potato famine" phrase if you are a serious student of this subject. Are you really saying that, or are you just saying it isn't the right phrase to use? If the latter, why claim you've never heard of it? MarkThomas 08:10, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
- Mark, we crossed over in an edit conflict. You appear to be suggesting that the Irish and Anerican educational systems teach biased versions of British Imperial History, unlike the British educational system. There is ample evidence in the historical record of deliberate and calculated physical and cultural genocide in Ireland by the London Imperial power from circa 1550 to 1850. Is that not on the school curriculum in the UK? I don't think the fact that the Crown was brutal at home as well as abroad is either here nor there. Regarding the "potato famine" what I was really saying was that I had never heard it used - in normal conversation; in history classes or in the local pub. At the bus stop. Atop the 46a. I may have been aware of the term from reading Anglocentric publications, such as Wiki. (Sarah777 08:11, 20 June 2007 (UTC))
- (Reply to Mark) Mark, you're missing the point. The blight was a natural phenonom, no one can be blamed for that. The economic sensibilities of the day were widely held and were enacted, at least, for the far greater part in good faith (the wider sensibilities towards the Irish are another concern.) But that a phenonomon that had cost comparable lost of life elsewhere in Europe should cause a 150-year population fall - essentially free-fall for the first 50 years, coming under control following independence, only rising in the country as a whole in the 1960's, and lasting in the worst affected areas of the country until 2006 - is daming (I cannot think of a stronger word) for any administration. That it happened in the homeland (and yes, it was an imperial homeland) of by far the most powerful and wealthy country of its age, is, to quoute CJH in an althogether different context, "grotesque, unprecedented, bizarre and unbelievable" (see GUBU).
- What was at fault was that Ireland had for 300 years previously had been run as a colony (politically, economically, socially and culturally): deliberately stagnated and designed in everyway to bolster and never compete with England and the English populous. Under English (yes, specifically England and English) rule, the polity put in place and maintained by English were were driven by a sectarianism, with the blessing and support of the English crown and parliament, to ensure the subjectation of the majority of the Irish population. This subjectation was complete: not only political and cultural, but engulfing that entireity of economy and society. That is at fault for the tragedy of the famine, that is why the blame is laid at England's doorstep. That is why the affects of the blight in Ireland reduce the blight elsewhere to oblivion and inconsequence. That the economic answers of the day caused suffering also in England, as the did everywhere, is irrevelent. The population drop alone evidiences its comparable inconsequence. The famine does not damn the economic answers of the day, far more mundane example can do that more effecively. What the famine damns in the 300 years of English colonial rule in Ireland that preceeded it, and all of the sectarianism that came with it. --sony-youthpléigh 09:04, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
- Sony, I am not trying to bewilder anything and I object to your claim that such attempts are "along my usual lines". I simply reacted to your post as it read to me; you appeared to combine my text with that of another editor and attribute it all to me. I didn't even read you links. (Sarah777 09:11, 20 June 2007 (UTC))
- "I simply reacted to your post ... I didn't even read your links." That, in fairness, and without wanting any more trouble, would be along your usual lines also. --sony-youthpléigh 09:19, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
- Hmmm. OK, I'll have to give you that one:) (Sarah777 09:32, 20 June 2007 (UTC))
- "how misleading the educational process in Ireland and the US has been on this issue". Well Mark, God loves a tryer! And Who has not been "misleading the educational process," let me guess??? Please Mark, if you want to be taken seriously, leave it out! Regards --Domer48 09:49, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Suggestions of genocide
I removed the unreferenced edits and replaced them with referenced ones. Some of the edits which were removed were not bad, and therefor should be sourced and replaced. Regards --Domer48 19:35, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
- Hmmmmm. In fact you found a bunch of sources that claim it was all the evil imperialist swinish British and added them. Not that I totally disagree with all those, but there is a case for a more balanced view. The "genocide" claim is so freely bandied about now that it is being devalued. I think the Irish Famine was a result of imperialist "laissez-faire" policies used as a cloak for aristocratic indifference and could and did happen in any part of the Empire and would have happened in mainland Britain "if there had been a need". The "genocide" argument is probably wrong because it wasn't a planned attempt to exterminate a race, or even indifferently exterminating a race as your first quote has it, it was merely indifference to the condition of a particular class of people within Ireland, just as the British "government" of the time were indifferent to the condition of many working people in England. True that they didn't actually bring about a mass-famine of the latter, but that was probably just "luck" on the part of the english poor, and many did starve at various times anyway. The sole concern of the British "government" of the day was the wealth of the aristocratic class. Whereas today it is the wealth of the private equity financiers. Plus ca change. MarkThomas 19:57, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
- Mark, if you wish to engage in a discussion of the subject, I’m only too happy too. But I must insist that you desist from any insinuation that I’m pushing any type of any anti-English sentiment. The contemporary sources I have used have all ruled out genocide bar one! The quotes from the period lend some balance to the argument, though the contemporary sources are all critical of the Governments response, as you are! If you wish to address any deficiencies in the article, by all means do so, just reference them. If I detect any hint of insinuation in future discussions, I will acknowledge it with the charity of my silence. You may detect with my tone, the exasperation I am feeling with the crap that is going on, I will as from now assume good faith, reciprocation would be welcome? Regards --Domer48 20:54, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
- Actually we do seem to be discussing it. But I've just re-read it and I agree you have put some effort into a balanced set of quotes, so if I've jumped to conclusions prematurely, my apologies. It's actually a pretty good survey of the subject. MarkThomas 21:36, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
Introduction
While there has been some disagreement with the conclusions reached by Woodham-Smith, the quality of her research has never been questioned. For example Conor Cruise O’Brien, a revisionist of a particularly orange hue commenting on The Great Hunger said of Woodham-Smith, “Her just and penetrating mind, her lucid and easy style and her assured command of the sources have produced one of the great works not only of Irish nineteenth-century history, but of nineteenth-century history in general,” a view evidently endorsed by the The Times, “Mrs Woodham-Smith has made an individual contribution to Irish history. Her thoroughness in research, compassionate fair-mindedness and gift of narrative are all again in evidence.” Regards --Domer48 20:37, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
- What was the issue on Woodham-Smith Domer? I tend to agree it's a good source - is that being disputed? Just that there are more "revised" or "modern" sources around? MarkThomas 21:37, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
- The point I'm making is that although "there are more "revised" or "modern" sources around,"the disagreement has been with the conclusions she reached and not the quality of her research. The information I used was based only on her research. Regards--Domer48 21:46, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
- OK, certainly Woodham-Smith is one of the more careful sources. I think this field is rather full of fevered viewpoints on both "sides", understandably. MarkThomas 21:49, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
- Since the 150th anniversary there has been a renewed interest in the subject. This has put the revisionists on the back foot somewhat, they will regroup and attempt a resurgence no doubt. What interested parties want now is verifiable and referenced sources, which is the revisionist weak point. It was and is a watershed in the histories of both countries, and let the facts speak for themselves. Regards --Domer48 22:43, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
- I don't recall this recent addition quote from my (long time ago) reading of Woodham-Smith, "According to Woodham-Smith, there had been no fewer than 114 Commissions and 61 Special Committees, and of them she says, “without exception their findings prophesied disaster.” and what exactly it relates to - is she talking about the enquiries into the condition of labourers - if so, they were across Britain and Ireland so the apparent large number is slightly confusing in this context. Does anyone have a copy to hand - it appears not to be searchable on Google Books. MarkThomas 08:09, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
- She was talking about the conditions within Ireland,it is clearly stated in the quote "to report on the state of Ireland," I have three editions of it, including a 1962 edition, the quote appears at the end of chapter 1. So what do you think she is talking about Mark? Are you again questioning my good faith again? Or if its the case that there were so many Commissions it would be hard to suggest the Government was caught by surprise! --Domer48 08:19, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
- Stop being provocative and trying to start a fight, or else misleading people about my intentions. Nobody is questioning anyone's good faith. I am just questioning the context and nature of these commissions. I don't think they were directly warning of famine and unless we can see the actual passages it does appear from your comment above that they were on "the state of ireland" - in which case the way you've phrased that in the article intro is not accurate. I am just pointing out that as I don't have a copy of the book, and it's not checkable on Google Books, we are relying on one interpretation. Whilst I am happy to accept your interpretation may be right as you see it, it's always useful for a number of people to both check a source and also the way it is interpreted. MarkThomas 08:54, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
- Mark, you are being provocative, with "Does anyone have a copy to hand," questioning my good faith! Why do you not go out and buy a copy of the book? And with comments like "it appears not to be searchable on Google Books," strickes me as someone who's limits to references are a sad reflection on you! Do not waste any more of my time on this page! The limit of your interest is no use to me --Domer48 09:11, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
- This appears to be very incivil of you - I am trying to get into a sensible discussion of the value and context of the Woodham-Smith quote, which I note that you don't want to engage in. I guess I will have to go back to correcting the material directly, note that I did try to enter into a sensible discussion about it. All I said was that I don't have a copy to hand and asked if others did, hardly justification for such a tirade from yourself. The Google Books mention was simply to advise other editors not to waste time looking for it there. I am not wasting your time, my comments were to see if other editors were interested. Your reasoned input would be welcome as you wrote that particular sentence in the article. If you don't wish to discuss it, that's fine, but it would be reasonable to discuss it if it's going to be altered. MarkThomas 09:23, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
- The refs are fine, but having those details in the intro is little crazy. As it is now, a reader doesn't even get a change to be introduced to the topic before being bombarded with times, dates and numbers of crops failures and the inevitable unreliability of dependancy on the potato. This should be kept for discussion further down in the article. Anyone unfamiliar with the subject would be bamboozled by all of these statistics unless we introduce them to what context to interpret them in. (And anyone familiar with the subject would simply wonder at te writing style.) --sony-youthpléigh 09:37, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
- Big improvement, thanks Sony. I am reviewing other sources on the causes of the famine at present, it appears that Woodham-Smith took rather a hard anti-British view of the causes when she wrote The Great Hunger in the early 60s that is countered by much scholarship since then and we need to cite some of those other views. Particularly the myth that food exports rose during the famine and that they exceeded domestic food consumption, both of which have been shown now to be false. MarkThomas 10:09, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
- Mark, a word of advice. Please, less of the calling sources you don't agree with "anti-British" or "Republican." It doesn't do anyone any favours. --sony-youthpléigh 10:22, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
- Well, OK, but it's hard not to define Woodham-Smith's viewpoint on the Famine as having been caused by the British Government - it's difficult to characterise that as partial without invoking a sense of "anti-Britishness", and I certainly do not intend that to mean that some sort of racism is involved now, particularly amongst editors here. There are many places on Wikipedia where an "anti-British" view is discussed and I don't see it as offensive to label views as being that if they are. It's not meant as a personal comment against anyone editing this article. 10:43, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
- And the arch anti-Brit of them all: "The famine was a defining event in the history of Ireland and of Britain. It has left deep scars. That one million people should have died in what was then part of the richest and most powerful nation in the world is something that still causes pain as we reflect on it today. Those who governed in London at the time failed their people through standing by while a crop failure turned into a massive human tragedy. We must not forget such a dreadful event. Britain in particular has benefited immeasurably from the skills and talents of Irish people, not only in areas such as music, the arts and the caring professions, but across the whole spectrum of our political, economic and social life."
- Don't confuse unconformable truths with slander. --sony-youthpléigh 11:21, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
- I hope that I'm not Sony, I do believe that the Irish Famine was caused by the general indifference to the welfare of the poorest prevalant at that time, coupled to anti-Irish racism in Britain and extremist laissez-fairism operating in the British government. And I commend Tony Blair for giving what appears to be an apology for the British role in that. But that doesn't detract from attempting to objectively analyse sources and contexts in Wikipedia articles. We need to give an NPOV analysis of what happened, not one based purely on a partisan view of history. MarkThomas 11:40, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
- Oh dear. It seems we are going right back to square here. Writing facts which of themselves shed a poor light on, in this case, the British Administration, cannot be regarded as "anti-British"; anymore that writing the truth about Auswitch can be called anti-German. (Sarah777 12:07, 24 June 2007 (UTC))
- @Mark: Then it would help if you could summaries your concerns succinctly rather than attacking published material as "anti-British" - not least because it sounds especially odd when the author of that work is an acclaimed historian who was awarded the title of Commander of the British Empire for his work. --sony-youthpléigh 12:08, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
- Oh come on. I actually don't think I need to defend describing a source as "anti-British", any more than I would expect you to have to defend describing a source as "anti-Irish". Wikipedia editors are not a thought-police. Also (Sony) Cecil Woodham-Smith was a woman, despite the apparently male name. And Sarah777, I don't disagree with your point actually, but you are not describing what I am saying. I am saying that a partisan view of Irish history can color and alter the perception of that history, in both directions. Or are you denying that it is possible to have a partisan view of Irish history? MarkThomas 12:12, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
- "... is possible to have a partisan view of Irish history?" Yes, Mark it is, and it is now clear in my mind that you hold a partisan view of Irish history, seeing it clearly in terms of "anti-British" and "anti-Irish". I presume that you belong to the latter category and perceive anyone not subscribing to that view as belonging to the former? --sony-youthpléigh 12:27, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
- I don't know how you get to that from my comments Sony. I don't see it in terms of "anti-British" and "anti-Irish". Unfortunately however, many do subscribe to one camp or another. I ask you, are you denying that highly partisan views of Irish history do exist and can prejudice how that history gets written up in articles on it in Wikipedia? This seems so self-evident and it is vital that WP not be prey to propagandists. Like you, I want Wikipedia to attempt to be NPOV on these issues, but sadly a determined group of editors do not apparently share this aim. Challenging POV is incidentally a key goal of any committed Wikipedian. MarkThomas 12:53, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, of late, I've only heard you make blanket accusations against "Republician-minded" and "anti-British" historians. On the Oliver Cromwell page, I'm still waiting for an explanation for the unstated "bits of Republican folklore" that "need drastic revision" in the introduction. If an article is biased or contains unmerited information or unsupported interpretation, fix it - but please, less of the random anti-British assertions. Whether Cecil Woodham-Smith be man, woman or rabid Fenian beast, dismissing the published work of a Commander of the British Empire as "anti-British" smacks of mania, and makes it difficult to take any genuine concerns that you have as serious. --sony-youthpléigh 13:23, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
- Well, we are all busy, but yes, I am still working on a revision of the Cromwell introduction and hope to get round to it soon! The "folklore" on Cromwell (last time I looked at the article) in my opinion lies in characterising him as a genocidalist in Ireland - I don't think that's a view that very many historians would hold, although a few do. Also, why do you think that a British person can't hold "anti-British" views? As for your accusation of "mania", well, I would say I have grounds for a complaint of gross incivility there, but as it's you Sony, I won't! MarkThomas 13:35, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
- Just to clarify one other small point Sony, Cecil Woodham-Smith was from an Irish family, not that it matters really. MarkThomas 13:38, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, the Fitzgeralds, otherwise known as Geraldine. Among the many contributions of her dynasty to Irish history was this symbol, chosen to represent the British order of chivalry associated with Ireland, and Ireland in the Union Flag. Was your point that historians of Irish stock cannot be trusted? --sony-youthpléigh 13:50, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
- If that had been my point, why would I have said "not that it matters" above? Please stop maligning my motives Sony. I only want an NPOV Wikipedia. Part of that is challenging the over-use or over-representation in articles of sources that are themselves POV. Standard WP stuff really. MarkThomas 13:55, 24 June 2007 (UTC)