Danteferno (talk | contribs) →Revised Version: For the heck of it, but not specifically for Leyasu to answer, just to cover what has not been covered |
Idont Havaname (talk | contribs) List of gothic metal bands - which bands to include |
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::::: Sorry, my browser deleted all my cookies without be being aware. So i had naturally assumed i was logged in. My apologies. Im unsure what to do with the Nu-Goth issue. Its definatly worth a mention as a budding movement. But im not sure wether to mention it here or add it into the Nu Metal page, or create its own. In essence its a crossover of Nu Metal and Gothic/Symphonic metal. Im just not sure what to do with it, or where to mention it to best effect. ~~[[Leyasu|Leyasu]] |
::::: Sorry, my browser deleted all my cookies without be being aware. So i had naturally assumed i was logged in. My apologies. Im unsure what to do with the Nu-Goth issue. Its definatly worth a mention as a budding movement. But im not sure wether to mention it here or add it into the Nu Metal page, or create its own. In essence its a crossover of Nu Metal and Gothic/Symphonic metal. Im just not sure what to do with it, or where to mention it to best effect. ~~[[Leyasu|Leyasu]] |
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== List of gothic metal bands - which bands to include == |
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A point was raised in the "Current Revision" section that several of the bands mentioned in that revision have redlinked articles, though check to make sure that the band's names are spelled properly (since that would be a main reason for red links). I'd say only include those that do have Wikipedia articles. As for Leaves Eyes, how long they've been around is not the issue. They've released two albums that fit the style, so they should be on the list. I don't have ''Lovelorn'', so I can't verify that entirely, but reviews tell me that it's relatively similar to ''Vinland Saga''. I do have ''Vinland Saga'', and it does seem like it's gothic metal according to the parts of the definition that we've agreed upon. --[[User:Idont havaname|Idont Havaname]] 05:02, 15 November 2005 (UTC) |
Revision as of 05:02, 15 November 2005
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For previous discussion, please see:
This Debate Is Going Nowhere, Fast
- Repeatedly, I have asked Leyasu for published quotes, reviews, interviews, or biographies that both justify his edits and "discredits" the sources provided in the original edit. Between November 1st and now (November 6th) nothing of that sort has been provided. Any more participation (on my part) in this matter will be like squeezing blood from a turnip. It's really going nowhere, fast. Perhaps an Admin would like to contribute a couple cents...Danteferno 14:52, 06 November 2005 (UTC)
- Quotes i am finding, but i cant just magic a libary into my hands. Interviews you have dismissed, then reamissed, and are again mostly found in music magazines, both reliable and unreliable. And biographies from where? If you want the bands themselfs, go to the bands websites. Instead of using ones fans and people with no connection with the scene write. ~~Leyasu
...I'd further like to add that it's counter-productive to try to fit a band under a blanket classification. Few here will argue that Therion's early albums are vastly different than their more recent works - so different, as to be completely different in terms of style and genre. I think a large part of the disagreement arises from this. --wr 19:41, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
- I agree with wr here. Trying to be ridiculously super-accurate about a band's classification is counterproductive, and it results in our having to create a zillion other articles for classifying the bands that wouldn't fit in classifications like this one which should be more broad. For example, we had an article on Tolkien metal a while ago, about a kind of metal whose lyrics were only about Tolkien. Finding only a few bands that played it, the article was deleted in AfD. It would be in our better interests, then, to have our articles encompass more bands than that. In particular, I don't see anything wrong with calling a band that uses a male melodic vocalist and a male death/black metal vocalist gothic metal. And also it's hard to deal with a band whose work spans several different styles in this way. (To take an example from an article I expanded yesterday: Klank's first album was industrial metal. Their next album was hardly that!) --Idont Havaname 21:35, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
- I third that. It is common a band will change their sound and genre from album to album. Most notably with bands like Macbeth who have moved into Symphonic Metal and the bands that have moved into the Nu-Goth scene (which is small, not everything is recognised by the internet in its first years of birth). Often one album from a band will differ from another, and this is why most bands are evulated on an album by album basis. When i make reference to a band, i make reference to the band at current state. Also below i enclosed, a couple of paragraphs on what a genre is in brief. ~~Leyasu
- I think we do need to have some historical information too, i.e. not just bands that have moved into the genre as you said, but also bands that started out as gothic metal and are now playing music of some other genre. In addition, I remember that from your version of the page, you mentioned Evanescence, Within Temptation, et al as being the Nu-Goth bands, while when I look for Nu-Goth on Google I also see bands like Cradle of Filth being classified that way. (A discussion on Nu-Goth is probably better-suited for the main article on gothic music, rather than this one. That way it will be apparent to the reader that it applies to bands that take some elements of regular goth music, gothic rock, gothic metal, and so on. I've generally heard the press call Evanescence "goth(ic) rock", for example, rather than gothic metal.) If we're going to discuss Nu-Goth in any article, we need sources for it from the press (if we can link to online versions of articles in well-known music magazines, even better), and figure out exactly what the term refers to. --Idont Havaname 15:52, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
- I remember that Kerrang and Metal Hammer both did features on it when it was first announced and i have quite a list of bands that are in this budding scene. I only know it from many Gothic Metal, Symphonic Metal and other metal bands claiming to be moving into furthering this new form of music. That is all, and as it is often confused with Gothic Metal i thought it worth mentioning. I also thought it worth mentioning due to the incidents between the two fans that happened such as at Rock City, Download Festival and after Bloodstock. I however do not know the issue numbers for the magazines, only that it was in them. If someone wants to crawl through past issues to look for it, thats cool. I also know of the following bands to be in the Nu-Goth scene: Cradle of Filth, Nightwish, Within Temptation, Macbeth, Evanescene, Tristania, Lacuna Coil, Him, My Chemical Romance. Ive heard there is more, but i have only heard word of mouth on that. ~~Leyasu
What Defines A Genre
Within many forms of music, the melodys, tunes, lyrics, vocal style and the way the instruments are played have as much importance as the mere sound itself. In some genres, this is unimportant, in others it is. Something to remember is that a genre is the sum of its parts, equal to its construction. Many genres have features that overlap, for instance, some Metal is heavily guitar driven, where as in others, the guitars play only a minor role. Others are focused on high speed and upbeat notes, others are centered around being slow and downbeat. A genres key element is the composition of the music and the way in which it is played. Music from two different genres, when compared, will often have been written quite differently, with different ideas, goals, and features. Sometimes genres have the same ideals for composition and are played the same, and are only seperated by the way the music is played, but this is most common in subgenres. Genres are also defined by the way the composed music is played, and the instruments often used by the performers. Sound is generally not a defining point in genres, and is only usually definative when it comes to two ways of playing or using an instrument.
I hope people can understand that, as i understand my wording of all things great and small is not exactly the best. ~~leyasu
Revised Version
Belows is the revised version of what i had. I have posted it below so people can see it and post underneath what they thing is wrong, where it is wrong, and make suggestion on how it could be better. Also putting any information that is missed would be helpfull so we can have a nice and complete, accurate, informant, and easy to understand article using everyones strengths when it comes to writing it. ~~Leyasu
Gothic metal (Sometimes called Goth Metal) is a genre of music that originates from doom metal. It developed in the early 1980s in Europe as a subgenre of Doom Metal, the genre later forming from that subgenre. Gothic metal is a pretty linear genre but due to much debate amongst non Gothic Metal fans, its actual definition is not commonly known. The fans and musicians have a firm concept of the genre having been around through its growth and nurturing, but newer fans reject such categorisation as limiting or useless.
- If there's a debate regarding the definition of the genre, then it makes no point to define it. Why would there even be a debate amongst "non Gothic Metal fans" in the first place? A very awkward and unclear beginning.
Sounds, Constructs and Lyrics (Header)
Gothic Metal is a genre of Metal that first appeared in the early 90's. It grew from the Doom Metal scene in parallel with the subgenre of Doom Metal; Gothic Doom. Its first origins was with bands such as The Gathering, Moonspell and Theatre of Tragedy. These bands created the first symbiotes of Gothic Doom, which later went on to further Gothic Metal.
- INCORRECT.The Gathering, Moonspell, and Theatre
of Tragedy did not have "defining" albums released until 1995 (average). Before that, TG was death metal, and Moonspell/ToT were black metal. Long, long, before then, Christian Death were really the first to fuse thrashy riffs with gothic songwriting (including female vocals). And while Paradise Lost, Anathema or My Dying Bride may be called "Gothic Doom", "Goth/Gothic Metal" is really more elaborate considering they discontinued Doomish songwriting early into their career. The Gathering, Moonspell, and Theatre of Tragedy are clearly 2nd-3rd generation in the genre.
Gothic Metal is a relatively loose genre in the way it sounds because the genre is built and weighed upon its composition of songs and their parts.
- Like most other music genres.
The overall sound in Gothic Metal plays a minor role to suffice only to depict between itself and other genres. Gothic Metal tends to lend itself musically to both Doom Metal and Black Metal, taking influence for the melody ideas from these genres.
- Considering Black Metal is also a touchy genre, and no examples are cited, this reads like opinion.
Thus, added in with Gothic Metals unique use of Duel Vocalists, Keyboarding and Acoustic guitar help distinguish the genre from others. Keyboards in Gothic Metal often play a major role in the music, sufficing to replace the second guitarist in bands, taking on the role of either lead or rhythm. Acoustic guitars are sometimes present in Gothic Metal, and if a second guitarist is used, often is playing a form of acoustic guitar. Bass in Gothic Metal pays akin to the deep lowness of Doom Metal, and the brash harshness of Black Metal.
- "brash harshness" - I don't think anyone is going to have a good idea what this means. POV city.
Lyrically Gothic Metal is centered around Romanticide and Fantacide. The time setting for lyrics is often in the New Age or Dark Ages, but can also be in Victorian, Edwardian, Romanian, or even modern day. The Romanticide and Fantacide lyrics often used in Gothic Metal cover many broad subjects and are intended as being back themes and guides to the lyricist, rather than a complete prequisite of the genre. Gothic Metal bands typically don't write their albums in the form of seperate songs, they write in the form of books.
- "in the form of books" - no examples/sources provided.
This is so that each song acts as a part, or, chapter, inspiring people to listen to the whole album in order to hear the story, instead of just certain songs.
- The purpose of reading a dictionary definition is not to be "inspired" but rather "informed". POV-double city.
Penumbra's 'Seclusion' and Slientium's 'Sufferion - Hamartia of Prudence' are two albums most notable for this style of lyrics.
Vocalists in Gothic Metal normally have two vocalists. One Vocalist is a Male, who will use vocals akin to Black or Death metal. The other vocalist is usually female, often using Soprano based vocals, or harmonic singing. It has never been heard of that females do Black or Death type vocals in Gothic Metal, as duel vocalists in the manner prescribed are the signature of Gothic Metal. Sometimes bands will use male singing included with the two prior vocalists, but this tends to only be for backing vocals.
The atmosphere is tailored to fit the song; warm and energetic, empty and enclosing. The atmosphere doesn't share the morbidity of Doom Metal unlike its origin, Gothic Doom.
- POV
Pre Gothic Metal History (1983 -1990) (header)
- "Pre-" does not belong, considering the following section represents a history of Gothic Metal. Also, it makes more sense to include this section first, as it was (and as it is).
The earliest stage of gothic metal could be traced to bands in the 1980s who utilized goth rock aesthetics with metallic songwriting akin to doom metal to later influence the subgenre, Gothic Doom. Although Glenn Danzig's Samhain made some attribution of this, Christian Death are regarded as the most influential to the founding of the subgenre. The deep vocal baritones of Rozz Williams and Valor Kand, the downtuned bass guitars and eerie synths made a strong impression on many bands that would form later, including those who experimented with other metal influences. Celtic Frost - although considered by many as an early black metal band - also played an semi important role for their "gothic-sounding" atmospherics.
History (1990-present) (header)
In the 1990s, a group of young bands in Northern England borrowed from the early gothic rock sound of the 1980s and incorporated it with the slow, down tuned guitar dirges of Black Sabbath in the same fashion as bands before them had done. Gothic Doom, as it is known, was the first stage of the genre. Bands most notable for this style included Paradise Lost, My Dying Bride, and Anathema.
- Also called Doom/Death, removed (again) for no reason.
Gothic Metal originated from this with bands such as The Gathering taking the Gothic Doom sound that had arisen and making romanticide themed bands that borrowed from Black Metal's guitaring and vocal styles.
- None of the Gathering's albums (with exceptions to the Bart Smits era - which didn't really define their "Gothic metal" days) utilized "Black metal guitaring". Looking at the black metal page itself, the guitar riffs are defined as fast tremolo picking,
whereas the The Gathering's songs (from Mandylion on) did not utilize such. I suggest anyone concerned listen to The Gathering's Mandylion-up and then to Nocturno Culto's (Darkthrone) or Abbath's (Immortal) riffs on any of their band's albums. Yet another example of No Original Research.
Although the Scandinavian region was known more for its death metal and black metal fertility, many bands who started in either genre had progressed and conformed more to gothic doom styles - Moonspell, and Theatre of Tragedy, being two examples.
- Moonspell are not from the Scandinavian area, they're from Portugal. Far West Europe. And why Tiamat and Lake of Tears (both from Sweden) were removed from this list we'll probably never know.
Although early gothic doom bands Paradise Lost and Anathema used some female vocals in their music, Norway's Theatre of Tragedy was the first gothic doom band with a leading female singer, Liv Kristine Espenaes Krull (later replaced by another female singer, named Nell). This impacted on Gothic Metal by adding the first ideas of using two vocalists in the bands, which later became a signature of Gothic Metal as it was quickly mimiced by bands including Tristania and The Gathering.
- The article just contradicted itself here, big time: We're lead to "believe" that the The Gathering were the first Gothic Metal bands, but they really copied another Gothic Metal band. Much like the "Evanescence legal claim", no source to back this claim up.
A softer genre known as Symphonic Metal had evolved in the mid-late 1990s with strong similarities to Gothic Metal. (Insert link to article here). During this time the divide between Gothic Metal and Symphonic Metal became apparant, Gothic Metal becoming more aggressive, and incorporating elements of Death Metal directly into the music. Taking on a more technical approach and adding more complex melodys and rhythms into the music.
- What elements of death metal? Vague, no source/examples.
The Gothic metal scene is currently very developed in Europe after its problematic past
- Problematic past? Huh?
most notably in England and France, and is growing rapidly in Germany. Several groups of smaller bands are also emerging in east Europe and South America, struggling to gain a foothold where the scene is small.
Common Misconceptions (header)
Although the style has seen much more controversy than other metal genres - and remarkably, the most instances of debate - some arguments have gone on in regards to bands that have sported a gothic "image" in the eyes of the media versus those with direct genetics to the gothic metal genre. This has included bands that have shown imagery akin to morbidity, religious themes, gothic fashion, vampirism, and satansim.
- Which is why it seems funny to include Moonspell as gothic metal - despite unquestionably being a gothic metal band, they have used all 5 characteristics in their image, appeal, and album themes.
Bands are also often mistaken for being Gcthic Metal as people within the Gothic fashion scheme will attend the performance of a band, and the media takes to assuming the band is part of the fashion scheme of the people attending.
A List Of Gothic Metal Bands (Being Updated) (header)
- Assuming that these are supposed to be only the most notable/influential bands (and why the other list was scrapped), it seems odd that many of the bands don't have their own Wikipage. "Leaves Eyes" formed only 2 years ago and I think their genre (as would lateer TOT's) would be a subject of dispute. A Wikipedia article is not a place to list your favorite bands.
As said before, please post under here what people think can be improved, why, and how. And what has been missed or overlocked. As i understand people believe the way i type is very POV and i would like people to read this and point out indiviudally in each part how it reads that way and how it can be better worded to not be like that. ~~Leyasu
- This looks almost identical to what you'd posted before, but I'll offer my remarks/suggestions...
- "much to the bereavement of its fans" is inherently POV
- Drop the mention of Sweet Nightmare. If somebody made an article on them, it would likely be deleted. (Amazon doesn't have any of their albums.) Just wondering, Leyasu - are they your band? (I know you mentioned before that you're in a band.) If so, please do not use Wikipedia for self-promotion.
- ::: Not my own band. I play with the bands themselfs as a stand alone artist, and at the minute my own band is not even in action due to being broken up on a temoporary scale (life issues).
- "the genre is built and weighed upon its composition of songs and their parts" - So is any other genre.
- True, but some people were missing this point and weighing it on sound and appearance. I thought best to include this so people couldnt misunderstand. Are you suggesting to remove it?
- Again, there can be male sung vocals, right? Some bands that have elements of gothic metal in their sound, such as Therion in some of their works (I'm thinking of the Therion CDs that I have - Lemuria andSirius B), use both male and female vocals with the death growls.
- Duel vocalists of the Male Guttural/Female Harmonic type are a signature of Gothic Metal. I know of bands using male singing in songs and albums where they already have the 2 vocalists. Added it in with vocalists to make sure.
- Given the popularity of Evanescence, you'll obviously need to provide a credible source for information about their alleged song piracies. Such an accusation really throws mud at the band if it isn't true, and it could get them very mad at us if somebody on one of their forums brings up this page. In addition, it would be best to not refer to Evanescence as being in any genre since that's very disputed (I know that most of the press definitely does not call them nu-metal). The only song on Fallen (which I have; I knew about Evanescence before popular music had heard of them through sites like Flaming Fish) that I knew they took from another band was "Tourniquet". That song had been performed (much better :-) ) under the title "My Tourniquet" by Rocky's previous band Soul Embraced before he joined Evanescence. I don't have the Fallen CD with me right now, but I don't *think* they mentioned it was a Soul Embraced song, just that Rocky had written it.
- It wasnt covered much by media, little of least by MTV and Kerrang (it hurt their profits) but there was some English newspapers that did storys on it. I dont know of any web based sites stating it, but i do remember them being dropped from their label with the announcement and a large court case running for a while back. Ill see what i can find on the subject, and also see if i can find the original bands testimonials as i think they are on the internet somewhere.
- Again, I don't see any band that actually labels themselves as Nu-Goth. I'm not sure that that should be mentioned at all, and if so it should be in the gothic music article, or maybe the mallgoth article.
- I only mentioned it because it made sense to include it when its effiecently a spin off of Gothic Metal. But if you think you should delete it then thats fine. Ive also gained confirmation that Within Temptation was advertising the genre (again) at Bloodstock 2005 before their set. How im supposed to cite a gig though i dont know. Asking around to see if anyone has anyone with a very large Kerrang/Metal Hammer collection.
- The "spoken treaty" would also need to be sourced.
- I think there is history on the few band pages that exist. It wasnt anything to major, it was just a spoken agreement amongst smaller bands due to the unease of what had happened. I thought it worth mentioning due to the way the scene went still for a time, but can remove it if you wish (making the history somewhat incomplete on things that happened in it =x)
- "strong hatred for the Nu-Goth site Goth-Metal.net" is also POV, and the remarks about verbal abuse and violence need to be cited.
- Newspapers covered the incidents. And i know there was incidents with atacks on Evanescence at the Download Festival they played after their set. Attacks were also made on Nightwish and the fans at Bloodstock 2003. Lacuna Coil faired a similar fate when playing with Chimera a while back and Cradle of Filth have been attacked several times after playing at Rock City. Its probally mostly just trouble causes actually causing the trouble, but the general opinion of the Nu-Goth scene in the eyes of the GothicMetal one is very low to my understanding. The bands openly expressed their distaste for the site, and i will look through bands webpages to see if they still hold old announcements and such as and when i have the time (Having a daughter is such effort at times).
- While lyrics are somewhat important, putting a requirement on a band that the lyrics be about certain themes is somewhat POV; this is a genre of music, not a style of poetry. You should probably say that the lyrics are usually centered on romanticide and fantacide, rather than saying that they always are.
- This is one of those things that links the different lyrical types together. Im not saying their is a specific way of going about Romanticide or Fantacide. Its just the signature style of the genre as paganistic lyrics are akin to Black Metal and depression/morbidity are akin to Doom Metal. It is true that bands sometimes dont write these forms of lyrics, but usually have them as a backtheme.
- Shouldn't gothic doom bands also be on the list of bands, since this genre grew out of that one? (I'm thinking of bands like Virgin Black in this case. Another one, that doesn't have an article here, that might be gothic doom metal might be Whispering Gallery.) To me, "gothic metal" is a more general genre, and "gothic doom metal" is a subset of that. It's similar to saying that Oi! is a genre of punk, for example, or that progressive trance is a type of trance music. This article is, like punk rock or trance music, a more general article, and there are several different branches of gothic metal. Our list shouldn't necessarily be the "Scene Purist's List of Gothic Metal Bands"; maybe we should use the press,
the All Music Guide,and similar sources for judging who to include in the list. Of course Evanescence is out, but Therion and other artists that are sort of "on the fence", so to speak, should probably be included. It might be good to include a remark before the list that it is a list of bands that have been gothic metal at some point in their careers. (To clarify further, I wouldn't put one of my favorite darkwave bands, ThouShaltNot, on a list of swing bands just because they did a swing version of "Headhunter" by Front 242. However, if they did a whole swing album, then I would include them there.) If we're not sure if a band is gothic metal or not, we can just take that band here and talk about them!
- --Idont Havaname 01:40, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
- Gothic doom is a subset of Doom Metal however, and is more to do with Doom Metal than Gothic Metal. Its only real true connneciton to Gothic Metal is that it helped create Gothic Metal. Nu-Goth im unsure were to place them, as wether they are a sub-type of Nu or a sub-type of Gothic. Symphonic Metal is a genre in its own right now and is rapidly growing with bands like Eternal Oblivion and Offertorium. It is suggested that for bands previously in the Gothic Metal scene, to be included in the band list with the tag (previously) as i attached to Macbeth. Perhaps also linking this page to Gothic Doom and Symphonic Metal articles (which im suprised havent been written) as so people can easily find reference to things mentioned here. After all, Symphonic Metal is very much a twin genre to Gothic Metal. It relativly plays the same form of music with distinct changes, (Female led, Fantasy based, atmosphere akin to Power Metal, orchestral and operatic themes). Suggested articles be created and linked to this to form a ring to better explain things, as all three scenes are rather large, but seem to lack in media attention, and the little they get tends to often be inaccurate. After all, the media has called Evanescence everything from Pop Rock, to Alternative Grunge, to Gothic Metal, to Punk Metal. Another suggestion, maybe creating a secondary list of Gothic Doom and Symphonic bands on the page, with the suggestion of people looking into them would be a valuable idea.
- All previous comments in response made by Leyasu. ~~Leyasu
Ive corrected things up from the things u have mentioned, edited, deleted, reworded. Try now. (The point wasnt to delete everything, but make the reading right). ~~Leyasu
- Definitely agree with the points made by Idont Havaname,particularly pointing out alleged "violence and verbal abuse" within the "scene". History has seen itself manifested by such during the U.S. civil rights movement, Irish hunger strikes or Apartheid, but "isolated" news (if any published source could be provided) for a music genre.
- Overall, the "newer rendition" of the article is too analytical and reads too much like a personal point-of-view report. The purpose of a definition is to inform, not to influence opinion. I would like to point out, Leyasu, that another person cited Allmusic.com as a reputable source of information. Recalling our dicussion a couple days ago, perhaps you could tell us both - not just I - how Allmusic.com is POV, misleading, and long discredited, if you have found such "damaging" information.
- In addition, I would like you to tell me which version of this definition would be more suitable, and then explain why (and vice versa):
- 1. SUV (or "sports utility vehicle") is a 4-wheel-drive vehicle with multiple passenger capacity, similar to that of a minivan. It is used as a primary source of transportion for many suburban families across the world.
- 2. SUV (or "sports utility vehicle") is a 4-wheel-drive vehicle with multiple passenger capacity but a high rate of casualities during accidents. It is similar to that of a minivan, but one should realize that it more resembles an F-150. It is used as a primary source of transportion for suburban families across the world, however many families prefer smaller cars nowadays in light of price gouging.Many people now call SUV's Gas Yuckers.This resulted in a protest of people in front of the Ford assembly line building demanding a more fuel efficient but spacious vehicle.Danteferno 19:07, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
- I've now struck out the reference to Allmusic to tone down the controversy. I'd included it because often at Articles for deletion when a band's notability is called into question, a typical vote might be "Delete - Google hasn't heard of them, they're not in the All Music Guide, and nothing's available for them on Amazon". You are right about them being POV; I don't need some person who's not really familiar with a band to tell me what their best album is, although it is common practice in Wikipedia's album articles to include their AMG rating, if applicable, in the infobox. (That, and the All Music Guide is a very exhaustive printed publication with multiple editions; I've seen it in bookstores, and the All-Music Guide for just one genre could be thicker than a large dictionary, for example.) And as for your definitions (hopefully this will not take the discussion off topic), the first one is much better because all it does is state the facts objectively. The second one makes more comparisons than it should (some to things that are not really related) and is unsourced. --Idont Havaname 02:33, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
- Actually, the SUV question was directed to Leyasu to contrast the original version of the article, then the one he made, kind of as an "experiment". It doesn't appear as though he responded (or understood criticisms made towards his "Nu-Goth infiltration" paragraph), as he seems to be asking for more feedback, below. I'm not quite sure how many more people will have to tell him. Also note that he hasn't just claimed "Allmusic.com" was discredited,but many other Metal sites on the internet for reasons that have since since been provided with no back-up or source. Danteferno 07:30, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
- I've now struck out the reference to Allmusic to tone down the controversy. I'd included it because often at Articles for deletion when a band's notability is called into question, a typical vote might be "Delete - Google hasn't heard of them, they're not in the All Music Guide, and nothing's available for them on Amazon". You are right about them being POV; I don't need some person who's not really familiar with a band to tell me what their best album is, although it is common practice in Wikipedia's album articles to include their AMG rating, if applicable, in the infobox. (That, and the All Music Guide is a very exhaustive printed publication with multiple editions; I've seen it in bookstores, and the All-Music Guide for just one genre could be thicker than a large dictionary, for example.) And as for your definitions (hopefully this will not take the discussion off topic), the first one is much better because all it does is state the facts objectively. The second one makes more comparisons than it should (some to things that are not really related) and is unsourced. --Idont Havaname 02:33, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
- 2. SUV (or "sports utility vehicle") is a 4-wheel-drive vehicle with multiple passenger capacity but a high rate of casualities during accidents. It is similar to that of a minivan, but one should realize that it more resembles an F-150. It is used as a primary source of transportion for suburban families across the world, however many families prefer smaller cars nowadays in light of price gouging.Many people now call SUV's Gas Yuckers.This resulted in a protest of people in front of the Ford assembly line building demanding a more fuel efficient but spacious vehicle.Danteferno 19:07, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
- You already pointed out you have a problem with anyone editing anything you write because you claim your the only person who is right. Both of them are good for different things. First one is good if you want a few simple obvious things, but then leaves it open for misinterpretation of what an SUV actually is. Second one is better at actually defining what one is, but makes for a longer read unless worded well. Also, i have pointed out these which i have openly said im working on sourcing, and your argument of, 'just because its not on the internet', doesnt mean its not true, as IDont also pointed out. Also as i pointed out your sites all openly admit speculation and i dont have to source the site saying it when they admit to it as part of the site, if you took the time to explore it. Ive stopped listening to most of your critiscism sheerly for the fact its not constructive and you openly admitted, without saying it, that you dont like people editing what you put. Thus the feedback was asked of others who can be constructive. ~~Leyasu
- RE: "You already pointed out you have a problem with anyone editing anything you write because you claim your the only person who is right." - I Never Wrote This Or Anything Like This At All. This is the 4th time you accused me of something that I never wrote, which is going to do nothing in the longrun but tarnish your personal credibility. In light of this and other inflammatory statements that you have made, I have washed my hands of attempting debate with you - It's really impossible to take you seriously. Danteferno 00:45, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
- You already pointed out you have a problem with anyone editing anything you write because you claim your the only person who is right. Both of them are good for different things. First one is good if you want a few simple obvious things, but then leaves it open for misinterpretation of what an SUV actually is. Second one is better at actually defining what one is, but makes for a longer read unless worded well. Also, i have pointed out these which i have openly said im working on sourcing, and your argument of, 'just because its not on the internet', doesnt mean its not true, as IDont also pointed out. Also as i pointed out your sites all openly admit speculation and i dont have to source the site saying it when they admit to it as part of the site, if you took the time to explore it. Ive stopped listening to most of your critiscism sheerly for the fact its not constructive and you openly admitted, without saying it, that you dont like people editing what you put. Thus the feedback was asked of others who can be constructive. ~~Leyasu
- The archives, if read, show you many times, in various ways, showing the attitude, and having you saying, that your artcile is right because you are right, and others are not. I asked for your feedback only because different people interpret things in different ways when read. Your wording was giving a highly misleading impression and was filled with inaccuracys. I have TRIED to keep as much of your article intact as possible, even adding in the Pre-Gothic Metal history which you had written. If you wish to end debate, that is fine. I will await feedback from Idont and other users who have more constructive things to say. Also ive asked for mre feedback, in the hopes of getting the best article between everyone possible. ~~Leyasu
Ok so more short and concise, done. Ive shortened things and taken out anything i could see that leaves it at a bare minimum (as far as i can see).
- A softer genre known as Symphonic Metal had evolved in the mid-late 1990s. These bands focused on emphasing female vocals, although not necessarily operatic ones, with few traces of Doom Metal elements and little use of male death vocals. These bands include, Within Temptation (Netherlands), Epica (Netherlands) and Lacrimosa (Germany), focusing more on Opera and Classical music themes than those akin to Gothic Metal. Some of these bands also combined electronic sounds and mainstream rock music with the traditional Symphonic metal sound to create a lighter and more accessible form of the genre. During this time the divide between Gothic Metal and Symphonic Metal became apparant, Gothic Metal becoming more aggressive, and incorporating elements of Death Metal into the music. Taking on a more technical approach and adding highly complex melodys and rhythms into the music whilst Symphonic Metal centered more on operatic and classical themes.
Or
- A softer genre known as Symphonic Metal had evolved in the mid-late 1990s with strong similarities to Gothic Metal.(Insert link to article here). During this time the divide between Gothic Metal and Symphonic Metal became apparant, Gothic Metal becoming more aggressive, and incorporating elements of Death Metal directly into the music. Taking on a more technical approach and adding highly complex melodys and rhythms into the music. (Better?)
And also i did another one that im not sure about, but tell me what you think anyways.
- In 2004, Nu Metal bands Lacuna Coil and Evanescence, alongside Gothic Metal band Tristania, Power Metal band Nightwish and Symphonic Metal band Within Temptation agreed to start a new form of music called Nu-Goth. The idea of this was to add Symphonic Metal and Gothic Metal elements to Nu Metal to create a more easily accessible, and marketable form of the two genres. This sent the fans of the Gothic Metal and Symphonic Metal scenes, and many of the bands involved in them, into an angered period, creating a spoken treaty amongst the worldwide scenes that as long as Nu-Goth was in existence, bands would refuse to play at any festival or be on any music channel, that featured a Nu-Goth band. The Gothic Metal scenes fans and bands also grew a strong hatred for Nu-Goth site Goth-Metal.net, that laid claim to the title of Gothic Metal. This inspired many savage attacks from the Gothic Metal scenes fans in England, most travelling to places where Nu-Goth bands were playing and attacking them and the fans with verbal abuse, and sometimes violance..
Or
- In 2004, Nu Metal bands Lacuna Coil and Evanescence, alongside Gothic Metal band Tristania, Power Metal band Nightwish and Symphonic Metal band Within Temptation agreed to start a new form of music called Nu-Goth. (Insert article link here). This sent the fans of the Gothic Metal and Symphonic Metal scenes, and many of the bands involved in them, into an angered period. This inspired many attacks from the Gothic Metal scenes fans in England on these bands, most travelling to places where the bands were playing and attacking them and the fans with verbal abuse, and sometimes violance..
Ok i wasnt sure what to do with those two - so i thought id run them by you as examples to see if got what you was telling me to do right. All the others ones ive just edited and left to be read again. It may be going bit by bit by bit. But hey, lest we are all coming up with an article we can all agree on, thats functional, practical, and accurate. So what do you huys think of the latest revisions? ~~Leyasu
- Gothic metal (Sometimes called Goth Metal) is a genre of music that is often mistaken for a crossover between heavy metal music and gothic music itself. - How can that be reworded so that it states what it is basically in the opening line, without sounding patronising? ~~Leyasu
Consider The "Source"
Quoted allegations by user Leyasu:
"You already pointed out you have a problem with anyone editing anything you write because you claim your the only person who is right."
"Previously you claimed interviews where(sic) not reliable to discredit my point"
If you look back in the discussion history, no claim of either took place from yours truly. I have done nothing but encourage the inclusion of material (with published, verifiable sources, including interviews.) I certainly don't know how straw man arguments such as this will help Leyasu's position.
While we're on the subject, let's see what others have to say about the importance of using published sources on the internet:
User wr (24.255.166.222) wrote on 01:36 in Gothic Metal:Talk, 7 November 2005: "Well, if they're not on the internet and there are no sources to demonstrate that they ever even existed, then it is rather impossible to determine when they did come around."
User Idont Havaname wrote on 06:45, 5 November 2005 (UTC) in Leyasu's discussion page, "You seem like you do know a lot about the subject, it's best to go by this advice and make sure you cite everything."
That makes 3 people, including myself. So, I am bit confused how there is any right that one could justifiably refurnish an article without citing a source.
In addition, 2, so far, think Lacuna Coil are gothic metal (Myself and user wr (24.255.166.222) on Gothic Metal:Talk "What is gothic metal") One user (Leyasu) thinks they're nu-metal. Yet there's no other implication on the internet besides here that they are, or have been implied with this label. It seems to have started here.
2 so far (myself and Idont Havaname) apparently do not think "Nu-Goth" belongs in the Gothic Metal article. The limited reference seems to be applied to some bands that have no affiliation with heavy metal music or gothic metal at all (i.e. My Chemical Romance). Likewise, who is and isn't Nu-Goth is speculative and POV. (I must add that I am not the only person who called Leyasu's edits POV - See Idont Havaname)'s responses to his revision, above).
Just a little review of the discussion, which I think is quite telling.Danteferno 10:08, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
- I equally fail to see how this any reason to justify an article that is POV and Speculation citing sources that are POV and Specualtion. Also, the internet doesnt define everything. I can find an equal amount of websites that say Cradle of Filth is Black Metal, and an Equal amount saying they are everything but. And even then they are all nearly fan pages and speculation from people with no knowledge of the musical composition, or, have a very sided POV. Nu-Goth is a sketchy thing, and as i put in the revised version, it should be linked, as Symphonic Metal should, so people can look it up as and when they please. Thus it gets only a brief mention for purposes of comparison because its history of and related to Gothic Metal. I also have told you, that im citing sources and compiling them. I am peculiar, and do not want to cite sources until i have found a way of compiling all the information into one place. Also, the argument of, 'I couldnt find X on Google', isnt really a great argument to make on what Lacuna Coil is. Also, Nu Metal and Gothic Metal are composed quite differently and Lacuna Coils composition is Nu Metal. I can play a pop album using instruments akin to Gothic Metal. That doesnt make the album Gothic Metal, nor does it make the band such. Also their is numerous points in the Archives, and i could trawl through them all to quote you if i really wished to. In reference to WR making the comment about Sweet Nightmare, i removed them, as it was a 3 vs 1 one case and i saw no purpose in arguing it. Sorry if i cannot just magic everything at my finger tips, but if you must know, i have been finding articles about the Nu-Goth scene in Kerrang Magazine and Metal Hammer Magazine. I also have written to Wacken's manager about it to ask what he knows. Nu-Goth is a movement that is reletavily new and nobody bar the bands seem to know that much about it. As for Gothic Metal, again, to say Lacuna Coil is Gothic Metal is to equally say that Evanescene is Gothic Metal, as they share the same composition and ideologies within the music. Sound doesnt define genres. Also, i would like you to explain, how you have come to the conclusion Lacuna Coil is Gothic Metal. And on a final note, IDont said the article READ POV, not that it was. Thats why i asked for him to explain to me why it does, and how it can be better worded so it doesnt. ~~Leyasu
- Well quit arguing, compile your sources and when you got everything taken care of, add to the article. What is this Sweet Nightmare band you keep menctioning too? Do you have any proof at all they exist? They failed the Google check unless you are talking about the relativly new Canadian band. --Arm 15:46, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
- If already removed them due to points of Idont, im also revising again to remove certain things he has said sounds like slander,and also editing some small things he says sound biased or pov, that i dont see because its generally the way i talk. Also im still not excepting the age old argument of, 'I couldnt find X on Google so you are wrong'. If everything was on Google, id be able to find the cure to Aids, The Meaning of Life, and Truth Behind All Religion. Not 101 different speculations on it by 101 different people. ~~Leyasu
- Excuses, excuses. If this Sweet Nightmare band exists is there any proof you have to prove it's existence. If no web sites exist, well then I guess they were a pretty forgettable band if nobody rememberes them. Otherwise I just think your making this band up. --Arm 17:52, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
Questions from anon ("Metal Mayhem Rulz")
Hey wheres my past comments on Leyasu stop removing my postings Metal Mayhem Rulz
- I deleted them because they were personal attacks. If you have a question to ask a particular user, ask them on their talk page rather than here. --Idont Havaname 23:33, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Gothic Metal is pretty crappy i recommend you stop listening to the above mentioned bands get a few facial pearcings lose the black outfit grow your hair put on some corpse paint and bang your head to some Slipknot a real metal band [[Metal Mayhem Rulz}}
- To each their own, but we're here to make an article on metal that is historically thought of as gothic metal, and the article is currently protected to deal with disputes over its content. However, Slipknot is generally not referred to as gothic metal, and I think that Danteferno and Leyasu would both agree with that. In fact, the Slipknot disambiguation page calls them nu metal, and the Slipknot article calls them alternative metal. See Slipknot (band)#Debate on categorization for more information about that. --Idont Havaname 23:33, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
- I fail to see how this is constructive. And wonder why this is even on the talk page. ~~Leyasu
- Basically as an answer to an FAQ; I've heard the "Slipknot is goth/gothic metal" argument quite a bit and just wanted to make it clear that they're not gothic metal in case anyone else comes by and asks about it, or demands that they are. Also, I wanted to maintain that future personal attacks will be deleted. Due to the nature of dynamic IPs (many ISPs use them; AOL is one, and as an AOL user I'm occasionally blocked because I'm using an IP that somebody else used to vandalize pages, for example), an editor may come back under a different IP and never get messages that I leave on their talk page. (Also - Leyasu, I know you have an account; please make sure to stay logged in so that it's easier to find your messages in the page history.) --Idont Havaname 20:55, 13 November 2005 (UTC)-->
- I fail to see how this is constructive. And wonder why this is even on the talk page. ~~Leyasu
- Sorry, my browser deleted all my cookies without be being aware. So i had naturally assumed i was logged in. My apologies. Im unsure what to do with the Nu-Goth issue. Its definatly worth a mention as a budding movement. But im not sure wether to mention it here or add it into the Nu Metal page, or create its own. In essence its a crossover of Nu Metal and Gothic/Symphonic metal. Im just not sure what to do with it, or where to mention it to best effect. ~~Leyasu
List of gothic metal bands - which bands to include
A point was raised in the "Current Revision" section that several of the bands mentioned in that revision have redlinked articles, though check to make sure that the band's names are spelled properly (since that would be a main reason for red links). I'd say only include those that do have Wikipedia articles. As for Leaves Eyes, how long they've been around is not the issue. They've released two albums that fit the style, so they should be on the list. I don't have Lovelorn, so I can't verify that entirely, but reviews tell me that it's relatively similar to Vinland Saga. I do have Vinland Saga, and it does seem like it's gothic metal according to the parts of the definition that we've agreed upon. --Idont Havaname 05:02, 15 November 2005 (UTC)