Internet culture B‑class High‑importance | |||||||||||||||||
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It's just the law of large numbers
As tongue-in-cheek as the "law" is, it doesn't hurt to point out that it is strictly true for every possible event during a Usenet discussion. It's just the law of large numbers. So, it is equally true that as a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving flying pigs approaches one. It does for any event whose probability is not 0. Kronocide (talk) 17:22, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
- It doesn't hurt to point that out on the talk page (as has been done before, more than once), but it would not be a useful addition to the article, since the subject is an instance of net.humor with a social/cultural point to make, and is not meant to be mathematically analyzed into the ground (as has also been discussed in detail here before; see archives). — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(Õلō)ˀ Contribs. 07:14, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
- Agreed, and in any case it's more about the 'mean time to Hitler', rather than solely the probability that the topic itself would arise. The whole reason this 'law' was introduced was to combat the almost universal knee-jerk reaction of people to use Hitler/Nazis as a synonym for evil. It is for this reason much more likely to arise earlier in conversation than flying pigs, as any debate that becomes heated often involves one side considering the other bad/wrong/evil etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by HappyGod (talk • contribs) 23:40, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
Godwin's law as a means of inflicting censorship
Godwin's law started as a joke that is nowadays used extensively to inflict censorship on the internet by intimidation. I ignore Godwin's law and I propose to do the same because if you are anti-censorship, then you'd be also in allowing people to bring up the nazi party. The phenomenon while it may sound trivial at first, took saddening proportions the last few years since it's almost impossible to discuss the middle east wars and the nazis at the same time. Censorship by popular culture intimidation should not be tolerated. Arguments, do you have them? Godwin's law is not one. I support the use of more sources that support the notion. --Leladax (talk) 11:29, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
- Agreeing with the above statement. I have experienced two discussions where the person failed to respond to my nuanced argument. Once that person saw the word "nazi" he simply quoted "Godwin's "law" really "Godwin's Probability Statement" and acted as if he had "won" the argument--simply by writing that magic phrase. Remember--the general public sees "Godwin's Law" as a discussion stopper--despite your disclaimers. This is because many people are not taught how to think rationally. Thus, Godwin's so called Law...is misused to stop serious discussions.Lindisfarnelibrary (talk) 12:31, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
- Godwin's law is in no way a form of censorship; it is simply a way to point out a logical fallacy. If, for example, you state that the number of elephants in Africa has doubled in the last six months, and I cite a factual source that contradicts your assertion, I am not censoring you. I am proving you wrong. You are, of course, welcome to keep arguing your opinion all you want, just like Stephen Colbert, who believes facts are elitist. Lovelac7 19:50, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
- I'm talking by definition of the times there's no logical fallacy. How can you answer like that when I didn't even use an example. There's no need of an example, I talked specifically of the times someone brings up the Nazi Party (e.g. now, as I did) and then someone else instead of answering with arguments, throws a "HAHAHA! Godwin's LAW!!111", and dismisses the whole discussion. --Leladax (talk) 22:58, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
the idea, I beleive, is that if someone has compared anyone or anything to hitler, the discussion has gotten well out of the realms of real argument. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Playwrite (talk • contribs) 14:47, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
That's ... the entire problem. Hitler may be a vile man, but this does not mean that (a) he was the vilest man that ever lived, (b) that people who are less vile can no longer be compared with him in aspects or degree, provided this is clarified.
Godwin's law is relevant because comparisons with Hitler are often badly thought out and thrown in a discussion merely to cast a bad light on someone. Godwin's law is not relevant when the comparison to Hitler is actually appropriate. The appropriateness of the situation, ofcourse, remains to be judged by the participants of the discussion. DDSaeger (talk) 01:21, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
- Godwins Law cannot be used to inflict censorship as it makes no statement on how to handle a Nazi analogy. It just says that the probability is increasing when the discussions grows longer. --JogyB (talk) 22:15, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
- I was talking practically: People will simply laugh at those that "dared" to mention Nazi Germany in a discussion. In other discussions, all kinds of horrible stuff from history may come up - but nothing from Nazi Germany - and nothing happens. "Censorship by intimidation", I was specific.--Leladax (talk) 18:57, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
Godwins law is not used as a form of censorship. It is designed to highlight simply that the longer a discussion goes on, the higher the chances are of it "jumping the shark" and becoming completely unrelated towhat the discussion is about. I think somebody claiming it is a form of censorship is a pretty good example within itself. Ironholds (talk) 23:08, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
- But that's clearly not how it's perceived by the majority of those that "invoke" it. You have a good point but I'm talking practically here: It is not taken as a general concept as you describe. Topics are being hijacked on the internet all the time on the mere idea that someone did the "crime" to mention Nazi Germany. This doesn't happen with other subjects. A discussion may be heated to the point of explosion, mentioning all kinds of horrible stuff from history, but nothing happening. In another discussion, someone mentions something from German Nazis; then "HAHA! Godwin's Law! HAHA! BUSTED!" commences. I called it "Censorship by intimidation" on purpose.--Leladax (talk) 18:52, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
- That's still not censorship; it's one Internet yahoo with poor debate skills being confused enough (by another Internet yahoo with poor debate skills) to shut up. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 20:41, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
It is censorship and I've used the internet for forums, blogs, bulletin boards since 1989 and never heard of this till today. And the only reference was used is Wikipedia. Wikipedia does not make culture so by them using it as sole source invalidates the whole entry. So this is just one man trying to impose himself on popular culture. If they use it in yahoo fine but I can show you a thousands of forums where its not used. 63.168.30.81 (talk) 14:30, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
- Since this law seems to only exist on wikipedia and isn't insightful enough to be credited as a law anyway, let's just remove the page within a few days unless anyone has any decent explanation as to how this isn't just a rewording of common sense and that this law has actually been widely spread before being mentioned on wikipedia. I'm guessing this Godwin bloke just tried to popularize it, maybe he even wrote it in some computer book of his, but it didn't take off because this 'law' is so basic and irrelevant. He's probably also the one to make this pageOwen214 (talk) 01:06, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
maybe the problem is that giving it a page makes it a 'thing', but what sort of 'thing'? The article itself calls it an 'adage', and then a 'law'. I suggest it is not really a 'law' (as Owen214) and so at best can be shorthanded as 'the Law' which clearly indicates we are referring to the thing entitled 'Godwins Law' and not a real LAW which really exists. As an adage it is somewhat clever, I suppose, but when it gets taken too seriously it is being attributed with a seriousness that it does not deserve. It can't be invoked, because it is not really the sort of thing that is properly invoked. I suggest that whereever the word 'law' occurs it be replaced with 'adage' or '"Godwin's Law"'--Richardson mcphillips (talk) 21:46, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
Leladax is absolutely right and so is Richardson mcphillips: It is ridiculous to call it a "law", since it is nothing else than a social phenomenon and you can break down a discussion with Gowdin´s law and use it as a censorship. The fact that Nazi comparisons are used, does that anyhow mean that the discussion is finished and a "winner" (who did not use Hitler) is automatically found? Of course not. You can break down as a discussion by censorship with Godwin´s law as much as you can do it with an excrescent Nazi comparison. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.236.91.12 (talk) 18:31, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
why don't we all make our own laws that particular topics will be mentioned as the number of comments increases? :S Owen214 (talk) 12:54, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
Please note that this page is for discussing the article and how to improve it, not to vent about how one feels about Godwin's Law or its application. If the article seems to take the subject too seriously, that can be corrected by editing the article and discussing your reason for doing so on this page. Whinging about how "people" interpret Godwin's Law is just that, whinging. — ℜob C. alias ᴀʟᴀʀoʙ 18:27, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
- I was discussing the article and how to improve it. I tried to edit the article first and some wikipedia control freak said I had to discuss my change here first. So I am doing that.
- A lot off people have a problem with the current article. People are reading the wikipedia article and citing it as a source improperly because it is a poorly written article.
To Quote Leladax:
- But that's clearly not how it's perceived by the majority of those that "invoke" it. You have a good point but I'm talking practically here: It is not taken as a general concept as you describe. Topics are being hijacked on the internet all the time on the mere idea that someone did the "crime" to mention Nazi Germany.
- Additional information is needed in this article to protect the integrity of wikipedia.
I will add the following next week to the article unless someone else can come up with something better under the following paragraph:
- Godwin's Law is often cited in online discussions as a deterrent against the use of arguments in the reductio ad Hitlerum form.
- Godwin's Law is also frequently use by people that favor dictatorships, fascist regimes and totalatarian forms of government, when they can't defend a position in an online discussion with reason or logic.
- If you have a better idea on how to describe this that is more "fair," then please let me hear your idea(s) (and don't delete my post... this is an open discusion any reply that deletes everything I have to say will be met with the undo buttion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.181.44.226 (talk) 07:46, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
- Hi- I didn't delete your discussion at all- I just moved it to the end of the page since it's really a new discussion and I didn't want it to get lost up here. tedder (talk) 12:46, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
"Wealthy trial lawyer" in "In popular culture"
The final two lines of "In popular culture", about a wealthy trial lawyer, seems pretty irrelevant. The link doesn't mention Godwin's law; it's just an instance of a comparison being drawn to the Nazis. Ctourneur (talk) 23:14, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
- Sounds like a good candidate for the axe if it is still in there. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 20:39, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Variants
One version I came across added "or Stalin" with similar intent. Jackiespeel (talk) 16:09, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
- Meh. There are many, many re-castings of GL, some broader than others, but they are not within the scope of this article, any more than rephrasals of Shakespeare are on-topic in his article. None of these reworkings appear to be notable. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 20:38, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Merely a point that "such variants exist." Jackiespeel (talk) 16:36, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Agree with SMcCandlish. I see someone added a Scottish variant. While amusing, this is not notable (in the sense that it is widely used in Scotland). Also the article on which it is sourced is a primary source (by the inventer of the variant, not documenting its use). I propose this should be deleted.Flashleg8 (talk) 15:59, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
In "Windows for Dummies"
In this book, there is a chapter on using Compuserve and other Internet things, and the author gives a list of rules for engaging in a discussion, and one of them is that any discussion ends once someone calls someone else Hitler or a Nazi or a Fascist. Since Godwin's Law was formulated in 1990, that book was circa 1993, and I don't think Windows 3.1 users bothered much with Usenet, it would quite notably indicate just how quickly the meme spread. 24.85.244.108 (talk) 19:53, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
slate
The article Leave Hitler Out of It - The craze for injecting the Nazis into political debate must end on slate.com by Anne Applebaum points out that the Nazi comparisons are ubiquitous (and usually not to the point), not only on usenet. I wonder if this is a good link for the article... Probably not, as Godwin is not explicitly mentioned. --Aleph4 (talk) 10:17, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
- That's someone else making the same basic point as Godwin; but it doesn't tie directly into the subject of the article. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 19:19, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- this should definitely be written in the article then, it shows that Godwin has been taking credit for pointing out a phenomenon which people had already noticed and was already blatantly obvious anyway. These Godwin sympathisers should not keep moving the truth out of the way for a novelty story.Owen214 (talk) 15:39, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
Neville Chamberlain
Does comparisons to Neville Chamberlain count towards Godwin's law? Bulbous (talk) 13:13, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- Does Godwin's law mention Chamberlain? — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 19:19, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- Don't be flippant. No, it does not. Lately, however, Chamberlain is most frequently brought up in reference to his Munich treaty with Hitler. Does this not satisfy the "comparison involving Nazis or Hitler"? In such cases, although the Nazis may not be directly mentioned, they certainly are indirectly so. Say we're having a discussion, and you are suggesting negotiations, and I am suggesting force. If I call you Neville Chamberlain, am I not implying that I am Hitler? Bulbous (talk) 19:34, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- I was trying to impress that it's a pointless discussion to have here; this is not a webboard; article talk pages are for discussions of article improvement, and there isn't anything one way or the other that is WP-relevant that can be said in this article with regard to GL and Chamberlain, because GL doesn't mention Chamberlain, or an extended class of Hitler/Nazi-connectees, and we don't have multiple, reliable sources making that leap in Godwin's stead. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 20:36, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- Don't be flippant. No, it does not. Lately, however, Chamberlain is most frequently brought up in reference to his Munich treaty with Hitler. Does this not satisfy the "comparison involving Nazis or Hitler"? In such cases, although the Nazis may not be directly mentioned, they certainly are indirectly so. Say we're having a discussion, and you are suggesting negotiations, and I am suggesting force. If I call you Neville Chamberlain, am I not implying that I am Hitler? Bulbous (talk) 19:34, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia does not make Culture
There are a lot of entries on Wikipedia that are listed as culture but the only reference I've seen use is Wikipedia. Wikipedia is there to record culture not make it. It's not culture unless the majority of the people use said entry on a regular basis. As it stands right now Godwins Law is entry is being used to spread the use via Wikipedia thats not culture thats propaganda. Everuntested (talk) 14:51, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
- What you just said is a good simple summary of our notability guidelines. It should not be possible to say "nobody knew me/us/it/them from Adam until the Wikipedia article". However, in the case of "Godwin's Law", this doesn't apply as it was well known on Usenet before there was a "web" for it to be sourced on and it's mentioned in several "dead tree" books written before this article was created in 2001.
- PS It's been nominated for deletion twice (1, 2) and speedy kept twice. --Ron Ritzman (talk) 13:04, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
- I think you are confusing a FAD with culture. I've been using the USENET, Forums, Bulletin Boards, etc.. each as they come into use and this is the first I've seen of this. So, I guess everything ever posted on the internet is CULTURE. Culture to me is mainstream use by the masses. Not a few idiots here and there always quoting Wikipedia. This is an example of why I belittle every person that quotes from Wikipedia, it's popularity contest by the admins of the site not a desire to record facts. You can't have good information then ignore the poor stuff like this and expect to be taken seriously. ::76.212.78.82 (talk) 16:46, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
- See WP:IDONTKNOWIT. The fact that you were unaware of the topic of this article before reading it says something about you, but not about this article or its topic. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 22:25, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
- I think you are confusing a FAD with culture. I've been using the USENET, Forums, Bulletin Boards, etc.. each as they come into use and this is the first I've seen of this. So, I guess everything ever posted on the internet is CULTURE. Culture to me is mainstream use by the masses. Not a few idiots here and there always quoting Wikipedia. This is an example of why I belittle every person that quotes from Wikipedia, it's popularity contest by the admins of the site not a desire to record facts. You can't have good information then ignore the poor stuff like this and expect to be taken seriously. ::76.212.78.82 (talk) 16:46, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
Ah yes, Culture is based on what you never heard. You people are such idiots here it's laughable. The IDONTKNOWIT post is used just like this Godwin's Law. It's on Wiki so it must be true... /rollseyes. ... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.208.64.208 (talk) 19:38, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
- Yeah, well only a Nazi thinks that. Godwin's Law is like the Holocaust; it doesn't exist.
- The Nazi sympathizer has been sacked. Hail Wikipedia!198.137.26.43 (talk) 20:31, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
Local variations of Godwin's law
The article says:
In some countries such as Poland due to Nazi crimes against ethnic Poles which caused the death of over 2 million Polish citizens actual comparison of someone to Hitler or Nazi is very rare during an online discussion.
It then goes on to say that in such cases, the comparison is often made instead to Stalin and the Soviet Union. There's a note there that a citation is needed--and I'd really like to see one. It seems to me that in Poland, people would well understand that Stalin's Soviet Union was just as guilty as Hitler's Nazi regime. There are plenty of memorials there to Soviet atrocities against the Poles. 140.147.236.194 (talk) 15:17, 20 November 2008 (UTC)Stephen Kosciesza
- not true - citation needed 149.156.124.3 (talk) 11:40, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
Such "local variations" have already been discussed above; it was agreed that they are beyond the scope of this article. Ceausescu, Milosevic, Vlad the Impaler, Andrew Jackson; examples could be continued ad nauseam. I support the consensus for leaving them out. — ℜob C. alias ᴀʟᴀʀoʙ 18:31, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
Honestly, I don't think the article applies to many places besides the US itself (I may be wrong). Every region most likely has its own variation that has nothing to do with Hittler (by that I mean its own overused inappropiate comparison historic figure/event); nevertheless, it would not be as generalized as the Hittler argument. The "Local Variations" piece should, then, include more varied examples, since the concept applies, or not be there at all. If the purpose of the law would be to reduce the number of inappropiate comparisons, Hittler or Nazism would not define the law but would be examples used to implement it since they are clearly overused when drawing inapropiate comparisons in this specific region. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.186.241.209 (talk) 23:53, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
New paragraph addition
There a lot of people that agree that Godwin's 'law' is used often used improperly as a means of avoiding logic and reasoning in an online discussion. Additional information is needed in this article to protect the integrity of wikipedia.
I will add the following next week to the article unless someone else can come up with something better under the following paragraph:
Godwin's Law is often cited in online discussions as a deterrent against the use of arguments in the reductio ad Hitlerum form.
Godwin's Law is also frequently use by people that favor dictatorships, fascist regimes and totalatarian forms of government, when they can't defend a position in an online discussion with reason or logic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.181.44.226 (talk) 05:20, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
- My problem is that there's no real correlation between fact A and fact B. In other words, it's like saying "the sky is blue, so you must favor a dictatorship." The connection isn't being made. Maybe it's just how I'm reading it, but please gain consensus and provide sources back up the statement before it is posted. tedder (talk) 06:44, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
- There is a giant section titled "Godwin's law as a means of inflicting censorship" on this page that has numerous people reporting that this poorly written article.
- If this article is to be used to describe how Godwin's law is used and it currently does. Then all the ways people often use Godwin's law should be cited. Peoples use of Godwin's Law has grown and changed since the early days of usenet and this article should reflect those changes. I think the adding the paragraph adds to how Godwin's law is used by people on the internet and should be included in the article.
- This above paragraphs use is mentioned as "4. How can I use Godwin's Law to my advantage?" at http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/legends/godwin/
- A lot of people don't use Godwin's law to describe "that there's no real correlation between fact A and fact B." for example (I am over simplifying this)
- Person A
- "This government program or bill X has a lot of supporters; Therefore it is good."
- Person B
- "Just because a government program or bill has a lot of supporters does not make it good, Nazi's had a lot of supporters for their program of putting Jews in concentration camps"
- Person A
- "Godwin's Law you lose!"
- A lot of people are using Godwin's law as an ad hominem attack and not just as reference to Reductio ad Hitlerum as this one sided wikipedia article states in it's current form.
--71.181.44.226 (talk) 04:53, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
The popular web comic xkcd (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xkcd) has covered the use of Godwin's law as an ad hominem attack: http://xkcd.com/261/ --71.181.44.226 (talk) 05:05, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
Liberal or Socialist Maddow quote
I have changed it back to Liberal. She talks about Liberals and Democrats, nor Socialists. The quote was accurate as before. She is American, and the editor was right in pointing out the difference, but it was a quote from an American on an American show. Sirrontail (talk) 17:45, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
Backwards logic
Saying that Godwin's law doesn't apply to discussions of Hitler-related subjects is absurd, because it is true that the probability of Hitler being invoked does approach 1. The law holds. Either that, or it's a POV assertion that it shouldn't be applied for some reason. The point that the text I fixed seemed to be trying to make was that the corollaries (e.g. about an invocation of Hitler meaning you "lose" the arguments) don't apply because the subject is appropriate, and that makes sense. - Jason A. Quest (talk) 01:32, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
- The point is about invocation of the rule in the first place. This isn't a "law" in a strict scientific sense, and was never meant to be so. JJL (talk) 03:00, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
- Concur with JJL. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 22:21, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
Proposed mass revert
I propose reverting this article to one of its more stable states ca. 2007. It was a much better article then. All kinds of absolute tripe has crept in, much of it in direct violation of WP:NFT, WP:NOR, WP:NPOV, and WP:NOT, and in several cases it has interrupted the flow of source citations such that certain clauses appear to be sourced by a named source, but really are not, and in other cases clauses that were sourced now appear to be unsourced. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 02:10, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
- This article attracts tripe (and its Talk page attracts poor attempts at humour, such as the one you redacted) more than most. If it isn't closely watched, the variations/probabilistic arguments/analyses will return. Certainly the Nazometer can go. Can you be more specific about what you considered a better version? JJL (talk) 02:58, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
The pictures
Why on earth does this article need pictures of Mike Godwin and Adolf Hitler? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.82.140.122 (talk) 08:32, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
It doesn't exactly "need" them, but they are clearly relevant; the overwhelming majority of pictures in Wikipedia are not strictly "needed". JamesBWatson (talk) 11:25, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
- It's a nice photo of Adolf, ain't it? What a charming guy. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 12:10, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
- I do like the way Mike Godwin is facing the camera, but with his right shoulder forward, and lit from his left, just like Hitler! AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 10:00, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
- Maybe they had the same photographer. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 12:28, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
- I do like the way Mike Godwin is facing the camera, but with his right shoulder forward, and lit from his left, just like Hitler! AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 10:00, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
Semantic issue....
I know it's a bit picky, but it doesn't make sense to say Goodwin "created" the law as it does in the caption of his image. Likewise, it makes no sense to say Newton "created" the law of gravity; a "law" is an elucidation or model of the way something really is. Saying someone "created" a law is akin to saying they "invented" it. However, in terms of prose, I'm not sure which would be the most pleasing term to replace it with. Maybe "elucidated" or "codified," but both sound quite stilted (and slightly ridiculous). Any other ideas?
- Peace and Passion ☮ ("I'm listening....") 02:41, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
- Well, first off I'd be rather reluctant to group a pseudo-law like Godwin's with an actual scientific Law like the laws of motion. Second, gravity is not a scientific law, it's a natural force. Lastly, oddly enough in science Laws are the lesser of two positions. The other being a theory. Theories state that a situation occurs as well as hypotheses about why a situation occurs. Laws simply ascribe that a situation does occur under the same conditions. The one criteria this pseudo-law does not adhere to is that the law must be confirmed and broadly agreed upon through the process of inductive reasoning. Since this is impossible given the nature of this pseudo-law, it can never truely be considered a "law". It is, as the article accurately states, an adage. Padillah (talk) 12:03, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
- It's using "Law" in kind of a broad or humorous way. To be technical, "Godwin's Law" is what his profession is. In the case of this article, "Godwin's Law" indicates he observed this phenomenon and wrote about it. So it is "his" Law in that sense, just as Newton observed and wrote about gravity, thus he gets the credit for discovering it or quantifying it. Diseases such as Parkinson's and Alzheimer's weren't invented by those guys either. So maybe the article should say Godwin "discovered" Godwin's Law. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 12:15, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
- I also finally thought of the right word, which is that calling it a "Law" is kind of "facetious". It's an observation on human behavior, not exactly a scientific "Law", as you said. Maybe "Principle" would have been a better term, but it is what it is. A true scientific "Law" is something that never changes, at least not within the parameters of its usage. Newton's Laws are technically not quite right, but they are sufficient for normal use. It's only when you get into the realm of speeds approaching light and quantum mechanics and stuff like that where Newton's Laws don't quite work. Another example is the Laws of Euclidean Geometry. Those are "givens" for that geometry. Or as an old math teacher put it, they are rules, about which "there is no discussion". Not that there isn't discussion, really - but that they form the basis for that particular geometry. If you change them, you have a different geometry. OK, I'll stop before I sink any further. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 12:27, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
- You're wrong to say that gravity is a force rather than a law. There is a force of gravity, and there is also a scientific "law" describing it. You're also wrong to claim that it is unchangeable. The whole point of science is that it changes it's "laws" based on observation. Really though, it is the "theory" of gravity. Laws are things made by governments. If you want to be semantically correct, then you can change "created" to "hypothesised" or "proposed" or in this case probably "coined". ~Fishy~
- Haha, wow. Deep conversation. Notice that when I framed my above comment I tried to strongly note that it was a "semantic issue" restricted to the use of "created" in the "caption" ;) ... I knew a whole ridiculous can of worms beyond the scope of this talk page would be opened up if I mentioned the "Law" part, so I intentionally tried to frame the conversation away from it! I know all about the issues surrounding laws and theories (I've taken a couple whole courses in philosophy of scientific reasoning), but I was trying to shy away from those depths! Well, no harm done. The third comment (the one by Baseballbugs) gets kind of at what I'm saying.
- Peace and Passion ☮ ("I'm listening....") 19:32, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
- Haha, wow. Deep conversation. Notice that when I framed my above comment I tried to strongly note that it was a "semantic issue" restricted to the use of "created" in the "caption" ;) ... I knew a whole ridiculous can of worms beyond the scope of this talk page would be opened up if I mentioned the "Law" part, so I intentionally tried to frame the conversation away from it! I know all about the issues surrounding laws and theories (I've taken a couple whole courses in philosophy of scientific reasoning), but I was trying to shy away from those depths! Well, no harm done. The third comment (the one by Baseballbugs) gets kind of at what I'm saying.
Infinite Monkey Theorem?
The link to Infinite Monkey Theorem was added anonymously with the explanation "Adding Infinite Monkey Theorem (similar lines of reasoning, however contrasts regarding point - Goodwin's law doesn't have anything to do with infinity, but rather human nature)". http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Godwin%27s_law&oldid=268204589
Following the link doesn't really add anything. Did an Everything2 bot get lost in here?
- Godwin's Law is when a discussion nears an infinite length, its probability of mentioning Hitler approaches one.
- The Infinite Monkey Theorem is when anything randomly produced nears an infinite length, its probability of mentioning everything approaches one.
- Pretty analogous logically, I'd say.
- Infinite Monkey theorem actually sheds a lot of light on the concept in a mathematical / logical way, whereas this article does so with respect to "human nature." Peace and Passion ☮ ("I'm listening....") 05:35, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
- This sounds pretty much like infinity to me (think of it as calculus):
- "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."
- ...Move towards infinity, limit approaches 1. I don't understand how this almost perfect analogue is so contentious. You say that this is about human behaviour. Note that that is exactly what I said right above, though I used "nature" for "behaviour." You say "rather than mathematical probability." Note that that's what I said right above. This is the total point of a see also link: the Infinite Monkey article covers an extremely similar concept in a mathematical / logical sense, while this article does so in a human nature sense. I will reiterate, maybe someone will read:
- Godwin's Law is when a discussion nears an infinite length, its probability of mentioning Hitler approaches one.
- The Infinite Monkey Theorem is when anything randomly produced nears an infinite length, its probability of mentioning everything approaches one.
- Pretty analogous logically, I'd say.
- Infinite Monkey theorem actually sheds a lot of light on the concept in a mathematical / logical way, whereas this article does so with respect to "human nature."
- Peace and Passion ☮ ("I'm listening....") 22:01, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
Limbaugh's Corollary?
What the heck? This sounds like something someone randomly made up. The "sources" do not make any reference to Godwin's law. It is completely irrelevant to the article, and has absolutely -nothing- to do with Godwin's law. 70.126.70.134 (talk) 20:41, 15 October 2009 (UTC)Malkara
I'm a little late to this conversation, but hate-mongers like Rush Limbaugh LOVE to compare Democratic politicians to Hitler. --99.101.160.159 (talk) 03:22, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
Use in other media
There is a clear synonymy with the hyperbole described by Godwin's Law in the Simpsons epsiode Homer_vs._Patty_and_Selma, where Homer grabs and pretends to smoke cigarettes from his sisters-in-law. Their supervisor accuses him of being 'worse than Hitler' for smoking inside. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.128.31.45 (talk) 09:38, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
Nescio's Corollary
This seems to be a violation of WP:NFT. The cited source is a blog post by "Nescio" where the idea is proposed. Furthermore, the idea is not actually a corollary of Godwin's Law. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Daedalus39 (talk • contribs) 19:59, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
Pope invokes Nazi comparison
The BBC News website reported this evening (16 Sept 2010): "A speech in which the Pope appeared to associate atheism with the Nazis has prompted criticism from humanist organisations." 80.229.253.140 (talk) 21:19, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
A new article on Godwin's Law
Talks about some other Wikipedia stuff, but is mostly about Godwin's Law.[1] Kaldari (talk) 21:51, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
Summary is (partially) wrong
"In other words, Godwin put forth the sarcastic observation that, given enough time, all discussions—regardless of topic or scope—inevitably end up being about Hitler and the Nazis."
Now, that is nonsense. "inevitably end up making Hitler and Nazi comparisons/analogies/remarks" would be thing, but "end being _about_" them is just bogus misinterpretation of the very law.
Orwellian Improvement to Godwin Law
Even though Godwin created his "law" as a part of an experiment and it was expressed as an humoristic remark it doesn't mean that it does not hold some true, among many informal or "uninformed" political or historical discussions it's usual that in some point someone will try to counter another parts argument by comparing it to the Nazi regime, this makes a lot of sense from a moral point of view because no Nazi-end could be justified by their means, therefore any action that could be comparable to any of those performed by any Nazi can not be justified by no mean either.
From many points of view this discussion may seem innocuous, but I think that a similar instrument may come in handy from a philosophical perspective. It may not seem obvious but, historically speaking, the Third Reich is recent history, and even though there are MANY books, papers and research on the subject it was not until recently that a more accurate vision of the Third Reich Germany was possible and it'll take a little more to completely understand its political and historical transcendence, even Shirer (a visual witness) works are in many ways see as naive or inaccurate, it's my personal opinion that only Evans books are giving the closest thing to the whole picture so far. So, if we are not sure if we can describe the political origins and consequences of the Third Reich how we can use it as a reference? There's little doubt that it was an evil regime, but how evil is it? Can we benchmark evil against it? My answer is not, yet. There are so many passions involved, (almost) no one is trying to defend the Nazis, but there is an struggle between people who's trying to discredit with Godwin-Law-Alike-Arguments and those who expect better arguments or want to avoid them because they know the law may apply to them, therefore it's impossible to create a framework to apply moral values on the political performance of any person or government based on Hitler without falling in deep subjectivity, BUT it may be an answer to this problem in George Orwell.
It have come to my attention that when the level of the participants in an argument is higher* the Godwin Law won't come to reduction ad hitlerum but to reductio ad orwellium, this is because Animal Farm and 1984 seems to describe the most common misdeeds of any government, or at least those who are more conspicuous, usually related with freedom of speech, private property, approval from a part of the population and war policies among many others. Since Orwell works are seminal and they have a high degree of validity over time they leave the realm of subjectivity and goes into the science field: Orwell could describe the basic features of any dictatorial regime not because he was a clairvoyant but because he made the right observations and sustained his work on objective political and historic knowledge. Based on this it seems that any time a government or political leader fits into any of the profiles described in any Orwell literary work that government or individual can be leveled at the same moral degree.
- with "higher" I mean that they actually know what are they talking about. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bpolania (talk • contribs) 17:53, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
- TL;DR This isn't a Forum for discussing the article's topic--Guerillero | My Talk 04:55, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
Post 9/11 version of Godwins law
Godwins law in the post 9/11 enviorment; All Western media and internet conversations will eventually discuss Muslims and their practices predominately in the derogatory. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Brosse (talk • contribs) 20:32, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
- Source about this? Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie Say Shalom! 01:47, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
Presumably he's just being a smartass and made it up. However I think if he changed it from "muslims" to "terrorism" it'd actually be true and not inflammatory. Propensity of authors or commenters to invoke terrorism and freedom, whether relevant or not.Lenrodman (talk) 14:11, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
Memetics reference
Oh god, did this guy actually invent the meme as we know it? Urghsgjklgjd14:11, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
- Muhnuh muhnuh. (Translation: No.) 99.62.36.101 (talk) 01:50, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
"Use by American conservatives"
it should be mentioned how wanting to provide all Americans with healthcare and taxing the rich has caused the Tea Party movement to call President Obama worse than Hitler. To further their point, they can't even get their ideologies straight when accusing him.--99.101.160.159 (talk) 03:26, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
No.
Merge_discussion
Oppose the merger proposal. "Godwin's law" was a tongue and cheek observation that has been taken as gospel. It is a phenomenon of it's own, that references the 'Reductio ad Hitlerum, however it is a subject of it's own.--UnQuébécois (talk) 17:13, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
Oppose 207.30.26.32 (talk) 20:21, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
Oppose. Godwin's Law is different enough to Reductio ad Hitlerum that a merged article would be awkward. 121.72.172.4 (talk) 04:05, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
Oppose. 24.145.157.81 (talk) 16:59, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
Oppose Unwarranted. Belchfire (talk) 17:02, 16 July 2012 (UTC) Oppose, is not needed - has enough "meat" to stand on it's own.--MrBoire (talk) 18:25, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
Oppose. They are two different concepts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.183.37.176 (talk) 09:49, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
Oppose. While related, they are irreconcilably separate. Merging would muddle the concepts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.67.89.65 (talk) 11:09, 2 August 2012 (UTC)