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Revision as of 14:07, 10 June 2012
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The recent changes to plot
I wanted to get people's opinions on the recent changes to the plot by a few IP addresses, mostly 87.127.153.231. Do people think Glenda's death is an important plot point? I would tend to think not, nothing really hinges on it except to show the brutality and callousness of the men's actions, but as she is mentioned several times in the plot maybe it would be best to say how she dies for the sake of continuity. I suppose she is one of the people Jack takes revenge on because she's implicated, but it seems her death is unintentional. It's not clear whether Jack intended to do something else with her later or if he was using her as evidence or a bargaining chip.
Secondly, do people here think that mentions of what car Glenda drives is relevant material for the plot section? See these additions:
"He is rescued by Glenda driving a 1968 Sunbeam Alpine Roadster sports car," then; "Jack put Glenda in the car boot (trunk) of her Sunbeam car and drives off to find Albert." Then later on; "Before they escape, the London gangsters push the Sunbeam into the river, with Glenda still in the car boot (trunk)." I tend again to think it's not, if we start on that we have to list every car driven by every character in the film. Surely the London gangsters' Jaguar is as iconic as Glenda's sunbeam? And 3 mentions of the same car seems excessive. I would like to remove this info from the plot. I was thinking about having a section on the cars used in the film, I've idenitified them all now, but not sure how it would sit in the article. It's outside the MOS guidlines for film.
I'm asking other people's thoughts because I don't want to get proprietorial here, but I don't think these edits add much to the article. I'll agree to including a note on Glenda's death but apart from that I'd like to remove them. So what do others think? Kaleeyed (talk) 12:38, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
- I think the points you're making are valid and since you've contributed so much to this article, I think you reserve the right to make sure that the plot summary is up to scratch; I tend to find plot sections are rather magnetic to over-elaborate detail. I know some of the articles I wrote when I was new here had rather long plot summaries, but now, I almost try and make them the shortest section. Bob talk 18:43, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
- I agree too - Glenda's death is not an important plot point, even though it illustrates the kind of casual callousness for which the film is famous. I don't think the men knew she was in the boot of the car, and Carter wasn't in the least bit bothered about her death. He was probably planning on it somehow anyway. A brief mention of her death will do just fine, I think. I also don't think the cars are important enough to mention in the plot section - a separate section would be interesting, but not essential. Bretonbanquet (talk) 22:43, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
- OK, I'm going to cut it back down to size then! :-) I deliberately tried last time to get it down to the basic outline, but then people come along and add things they think are important, I mean nothing wrong with that, but then it gets- bloated. Obviously some major fan of the Sunbeam out there.
- I did actually start looking at the cars ages ago and wondering what they were all are. I think they're interesting, and each one says something about the occupants. Most fascinating is the mysterious Land Rover with an Alsatian (police dog?) in it, that appears to observe Carter at the start, then appears at the end when the police arrive to arrest Kinnear in it. Some people see this as a blooper, I think it's not, Hodges is making a very important but unspoken point here about the close relationship between the criminals and the police. He said he didn't want to play this up too much in the film because he had a lot of assistance from the Newcastle police in making the film and he didn't want to annoy them. But this is a subtle dig. Also, although the cars we tend to remember are the Jaguar, the Sunbeam and the Rolls, the only car Carter drives is a Ford Cortina, a mass market car, unshowy, practical and anonymous, an everyman's car, perfect for an assassin. Anyway, I don't think a section on the cars would really fit into the article, but I find it amazing how much significance everything in the film has, Hodges really thought of everything. Kaleeyed (talk) 23:44, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
GA Review
- This review is transcluded from Talk:Get Carter/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: SilkTork (talk · contribs) 23:04, 4 May 2012 (UTC) I'll start reading over the next few days and then begin to make comments. I am a slow reviewer, so if there is a desire to have the review done soon, then let me know and I'll withdraw now. I tend to directly do copy-editing and minor improvements rather than make long lists, though sometimes I will make a general comment, especially if there is a lot of work needed. I see the reviewer's role as collaborative and collegiate, so I welcome discussion regarding interpretation of the criteria. SilkTork ✔Tea time 23:04, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
Tick box
GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria
- Is it reasonably well written?
- Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
- A. References to sources:
- B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:
- C. No original research:
- A. References to sources:
- Is it broad in its coverage?
- A. Major aspects:
- B. Focused:
- A. Major aspects:
- Is it neutral?
- Fair representation without bias:
- Fair representation without bias:
- Is it stable?
- No edit wars, etc:
- No edit wars, etc:
- Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
- A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:
- B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:
- A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:
- Overall:
- Pass or Fail:
- Pass or Fail:
Comments
- Pass
- Stable. No edit wars. SilkTork ✔Tea time 16:20, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
- There's an appropriate reference section. SilkTork ✔Tea time 16:20, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
- Prose is clear, readable and informative. SilkTork ✔Tea time 19:56, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
- Major aspects. Article has plenty of information and meets GA criteria for broad coverage. SilkTork ✔Tea time 21:40, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- NPOV. SilkTork ✔Tea time 21:44, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- Query
- Images. There are five location images. Are all five needed? The stairwell image is questionable as we already have one of the car park. SilkTork ✔Tea time 16:20, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
- In Plot - "He is attacked by the and Eric.." there is a word missing. SilkTork ✔Tea time 16:38, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
- Also in Plot, why are some people referred to by surname, and others by first name? Is it possible to be consistent? SilkTork ✔Tea time 16:38, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
- In the lead: "For this reason, although the film is perceived as inherently British by fans and critics, it is perhaps more accurately described as an Anglo-American production." This is a speculative viewpoint which is unsourced, and details are not found in the main body. SilkTork ✔Tea time 19:46, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
- The Reception section mixes material on the contemporary responses with the film's legacy and current reputation. It would be useful to separate them into two clear sub-sections. Per WP:Lead, some indication of the film's current status should appear in the opening sentences rather than be only at the end of quite a lengthy lead. SilkTork ✔Tea time 19:53, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
- Focus. Article may be too detailed. The overall length is not an issue, it is the amount of information the reader needs to absorb in order to get at the important details - for example, is all this needed: Locations had been scouted by Hodges and Klinger in the spring of 1970, working up the east coast of England through East Riding of Yorkshire and County Durham to Tyne and Wear. Hodges said "It was important that Jack Carter came from a hard, deprived background, a place he never wanted to go back to."[40] He initially had the idea of using Hull as the setting, as he had memories of the derelict fishing ports he had visited during his National Service in the Royal Navy's Fishery Protection Fleet. However when he returned the sites he had in mind had been redeveloped and were unsuitable as the grimy, dilapidated backdrop he was seeking.[35] Moving up the East coast, the only place that had not been redeveloped was Newcastle. Hodges remembered his first sighting of Newcastle: "The visual drama [of Newcastle] took my breath away. Seeing the great bridges crossing The Tyne, the waterfront, the terraced houses stepped up each side of the deep valley. We'd got there in time. But only just." in order to tell the reader that "Locations had been scouted by Hodges and Klinger in the spring of 1970, along the east coast of England, to find a landscape that suggested a "hard, deprived background",[40] and Newcastle was selected after Hodge's first choice of Hull proved to be unsuitable.[35][40]"? SilkTork ✔Tea time 21:37, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- Fail
- A number of the images have captions which are too long, per WP:Captions. SilkTork ✔Tea time
- Lead. To meet GA criteria 1(b), which relates to specific manual of style guidelines, the article needs to comply with the advice in WP:LEAD. That is, in addition to being an introduction, the lead needs to be an adequate overview of the whole of the article. As a rough guide, each major section in the article should be represented with an appropriate summary in the lead. Also, the article should provide further details on all the things mentioned in the lead. And, the first few sentences should mention the most notable features of the article's subject - the essential facts that every reader should know. SilkTork ✔Tea time
- Sources and OR. There are a range of good quality sources, and material in the article is supported by the sources. If there is uncertainty (as regards the budget), this is stated. SilkTork ✔Tea time 20:58, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
- I like the Cast section as it very informative. Though it appears to be well sourced, looking again there are some statements which could have closer inline cites, and I have marked them. The section is very detailed, and this seems to be true of much of the article. I am wondering if there is too much information. The article does seem quite bloated, and that makes it difficult to get a quick, easy grip on the film. There is always a judgement call to be made on how much detail to include, and I am inclining to the view that this article may have a bit too much. SilkTork ✔Tea time 21:26, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- General comments
- I haven't looked closely as this is outside the GA criteria, but do all the external links meet WP:EL? SilkTork ✔Tea time 16:20, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks for starting the review SilkTork. You make a lot of interesting points as well as confronting some issues I'd been unsure of myself. I'll clean up some of these soon. Not sure about the location photos, they are all there to be used on wiki commons and it seemed a shame not to. I agree it makes the whole thing look slightly top heavy. Would it be possible to have a gallery of all these photos at the bottom instead?
Regarding *In the lead: "For this reason, although the film is perceived as inherently British by fans and critics, it is perhaps more accurately described as an Anglo-American production." This is a speculative viewpoint which is unsourced, and details are not found in the main body.
I can see it is maybe at present unsuitable in its tone for the lead. However this is not I believe purely speculative content, given the fact that it is stated in the article that the production was a collaboration between EMI and MGM, the film was US financed, but it is never referred to as an American film, and is ranked in lists of best British films. I can see I need to clarify this, maybe in the Production section. But I'll remove it from the lead for now.
Out of interest, which sections do you think are not represented in the lead, or could do with more mention?
When you say "some indication of the film's current status", do you mean its critical status? How it is viewed by audiences? I would say it's viewed as a seminal British gangster film, and a document of 70s Northern life. I intended to add a section on critical reappraisal in the 90s which I think is important as regards this film.
Please carry on as I'm interested to see what your final verdict will be.Kaleeyed (talk) 13:29, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
- Sorry, this dropped off my radar for a bit as neither this nor the article have been popping up on my watchlist. I didn't even remembered that I hadn't finished the review! I have a bit of time today so I hope to get this finished. SilkTork ✔Tea time 11:08, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
On hold
This is a very detailed, informative and interesting article on a key British film that has gathered increasing critical attention over the years, and is now largely regarded as one of the greatest British films ever made. A rich and complex film, the article does manage to convey much of that richness, though at times the temptation to include interesting information has lead to a loss of focus, and as such detail is lost in the mass of information. In such a rich and complex film there will always be more information to include - the sniper sitting opposite Carter on the train journey up, Carter never firing the shotgun, etc, and some editorial judgement needs to be made as to what to exclude as much as what to include. The main areas to work on, are to tidy up the lead, to trim back some of the detail, and to deal with the images and long captions. There are also some statements which need inline cites.
The standard hold is seven days, though as long as progress is being made I tend to extend that within reason. SilkTork ✔Tea time 21:53, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- I just started doing some clean up work, but I think there is more work than I can do in a reasonable time, so I will close this in two days if there is no further work done. SilkTork ✔Tea time 14:46, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
Close as not listed
No work has been done, and there's too much for me to do by myself, so I'm closing this as not listed. Once the issues above have been addressed the article can be nominated again. SilkTork ✔Tea time 14:03, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
Possible plot additions?
I'm no expert on this film (just a fan!). On watching the film a few times there appears to be some (minor) plot themes not covered in the article:
That Doreen is Jacks daughter, or Jacks thinks she could be his daughter. I can't 100% remember why I think this is inferred but may explain his rage at Doreen being in the film.
Jack _is_ concerned at Glenda's death - not because he cares about her, but because his plan was to kill her in Kinnear's garden with drugs to frame him. He then has to use Margaret for the same purpose.
Perhaps these areas are covered in the book - however I think there is enough left open in the film to make the above the triggers for Jacks actions in the bigger plot.
Also is there a scene which explains why Doreen takes part in the pornographic film? The current text just says 'forced', but is this force physical, emotional, financial or is she tricked into it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2ghoti (talk • contribs) 10:20, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- Hi 2ghoti. Thanks for your interest. Here's my thoughts. Firstly Doreen's parentage, whilst an interesting point, is not I think a suitable addition to the plot. This is because whether she is or isn't Carter's daughter really has no bearing on the outcome of the film. I think his rage is explained by his words to Glenda; "You didn't know her name? Well it's Carter! That's my name! And her father was my brother, and he was murdered last Sunday." This is about family. Doreen is family, the same way Frank was. Carter's family name has been disrespected, knowingly, by Eric and Kinnear. I think he would have behaved the same whether or not Doreen is his child. But his real motivation is speculation that's up for discussion, and therefore does not belong in the plot. The plot should just say very plainly what happens and how the action moves along, not go into detail about character's inner motivations. And we are focussing on the film plot, not the book here. Anything additional that's discussed in the book could either go in the Production section or belongs in the article on Jack's Return Home.
- Jack never says what his plans for Glenda are, are you talking about what happens in the novel? Again, we can only focus on what is in the plot of the film here, and Jack's plans for Glenda are never discussed, so they can't be included in the plot.
- In terms of Doreen's involvement in the porn film, there is no explanation of why she takes part, I have already added to the plot everything that is evident from the film, Albert only says Doreen was 'pulled' by Eric, it is difficult to say what this entailed, but it sounds like what would today be called grooming. In the film she looks extremely uncomfortable throughout and tries to force Albert away from her when he comes up to her on the bed. We don't know the circumstances so it's difficult to go into more detail than that.
- Thanks for your reply, agree probably not suitable for plot section, but where else? Section titled 'screen play' or 'adaption'? There is also the clever way that later scenes and dialogue make clear earlier ones to keep the viewer both in suspense and attentive. This method of telling the story isn't in the article at the moment.
- Agree that Jacks plans are never made clear in the dialogue, I haven't read the book so don't know what it says there. In the film he deliberately keeps Glenda locked in the boot for a future use (or keep her out of the way) while he sorts out other people and finds out information. The future use he planned could be planting her dead body to frame Kinnear - she has strong links to Kinnear so her presence would look 'normal' to the police - given she has been kidnapped it would seem logical he would use her for that (in the whole film he uses people for his own ends without any remorse). When the car gets pushed into the water with Glenda in the boot the camera lingers on Jack looking thoughtful, I think he isn't concerned at her dying but peeved that his hasty plan has been partly spoilt. He then uses Margaret. I accept the above can be seen as 'original research' so completely ineligible for wikipedia :-)
- This is what I love about the film - there is a lot more going on in it, some things partly explained, other things left to the viewer to think about.