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{{Ping|KIENGIR}} Since the human eye is attracted by colours, the viewer might understand that the coloured portions of the map show the extent of the German Confederation. That's why I added the second sentence. Prussia and Austria were the only member states having territory outside the Confederation. On the other hand, your expression "territories and crownlands" is confusing, since the normal meaning of "[[crown land]]" in English is different from the special meaning it had in the Austrian Empire. Also, your expression includes all territories outside the G.C., and the readers will ask themselves why it is worth noting that Tunisia was outside. --[[User:Rsk6400|Rsk6400]] ([[User talk:Rsk6400|talk]]) 07:40, 29 December 2020 (UTC) |
{{Ping|KIENGIR}} Since the human eye is attracted by colours, the viewer might understand that the coloured portions of the map show the extent of the German Confederation. That's why I added the second sentence. Prussia and Austria were the only member states having territory outside the Confederation. On the other hand, your expression "territories and crownlands" is confusing, since the normal meaning of "[[crown land]]" in English is different from the special meaning it had in the Austrian Empire. Also, your expression includes all territories outside the G.C., and the readers will ask themselves why it is worth noting that Tunisia was outside. --[[User:Rsk6400|Rsk6400]] ([[User talk:Rsk6400|talk]]) 07:40, 29 December 2020 (UTC) |
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:No consensus for your additional wordage, since it is erroneus, and I uphold what I stated in the edit log. Even the original text was sufficient (however that has as well some inaccuracy, but even the whole map may be removed because it's a quite recent edit). No, Austrian territories outside the confederation were the lower part of Istria, the territories westwards and the Kingdom of Galicia and Lodomeria, etc. Btw., my expression is perfectly correct, since the word crownland is used widepread on the related articles as a standard (literal translation of the original German), there is not any confusion about this (my expression never referred Tunisia, it's evident by the red boundary and colors what did it mean.([[User:KIENGIR|KIENGIR]] ([[User talk:KIENGIR|talk]]) 07:49, 29 December 2020 (UTC)) |
:No consensus for your additional wordage, since it is erroneus, and I uphold what I stated in the edit log. Even the original text was sufficient (however that has as well some inaccuracy, but even the whole map may be removed because it's a quite recent edit). No, Austrian territories outside the confederation were the lower part of Istria, the territories westwards and the Kingdom of Galicia and Lodomeria, etc. Btw., my expression is perfectly correct, since the word crownland is used widepread on the related articles as a standard (literal translation of the original German), there is not any confusion about this (my expression never referred Tunisia, it's evident by the red boundary and colors what did it mean.([[User:KIENGIR|KIENGIR]] ([[User talk:KIENGIR|talk]]) 07:49, 29 December 2020 (UTC)) |
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::I didn't say that "crownlands" was wrong. It is just confusing for a reader who might not be well acquainted with Austrian history. My concern was to help a casual reader not wanting to spend a lot of time understanding the map when just looking for information on Germans. I guess with "erroneus" you mean that I didn't mention Hungary ? As far as I know, the official name of the state before 1867 was "Austrian Empire", so I think the expression is correct. --[[User:Rsk6400|Rsk6400]] ([[User talk:Rsk6400|talk]]) 08:53, 29 December 2020 (UTC) |
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Rfc for due weight regarding the ethnic vs. nationality meaning of "Germans"
How should the ethnicity and nationality dimensions of the term Germans be weighted on Wikipedia?
- Create two separate pages for Germans and Ethnic Germans, perhaps with a disambiguation page linking to both
- Rewrite the article as a broad concept article
- Tweak the lead of Germans to mention the overlapping but distinct usages (e.g. as in this edit)
- Leave the article as is
--Tserton (talk) 00:26, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
Note: The bulk of the discussion on this topic occurred on WikiProject Ethnic groups, but I'm posting the Rfc on Talk:Germans as it directly concerns that article. --Tserton (talk) 00:27, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
Survey
- Leave as is I think "German" certainly is an ethnic group, Germans have existed much longer than Germany. It does also mention that it can also be used to describe anyone with a german citizenship. That is certainly important to mention. Perfectly fine as is in my book. Jort93 (talk) 01:33, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
- One article leave article broad in nature. Ethnic, national, dispora, historical.--Moxy 🍁 02:38, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
One article, but rewrite the lead– At this point, the #Survey of tertiary literature below has a dozen sources, of which more do not mention ethnicity (nine) than do (three). Numbers 3, 4 and 7 do mention ethnicity; 1, 2, 3, mention linguistic grouping, #6 mentions history & culture, #10 mentions citizenship. Several have no entry for Germans (5, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12) although most of those do have entries for other ethnic groups (like Finns, or Basques), which makes me think that those sources do have articles on ethinc groups, and consider "Germans" not to be one of those. I was surprised at this result, but it leads me to believe the lead should be rewritten, with a non-ethnic definition appearing first, per majority view as described at WP:DUEWEIGHT, and a secondary definition, perhaps in a second paragraph, which mentions ethnic definitions. Mathglot (talk) 07:13, 5 December 2020 (UTC)- Thomas.W.'s solution below is better; changing my vote to One article plus a subsection in another. Mathglot (talk) 17:33, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
- Leave as is, One article, the lead has been already rewritten which is already an improvement to the previous phase, and reflecting appropriately the triple ethnic, citizen and ancestry affiliations, the wisest and sane order. Just because there are some editors who try to reinterpret some terminologies because some inhabitants or subject may feel hurt by a desingation/interpretation is very unprofessional, btw. the discussions may be read as well in the above section, or the WikiPorject discussion the nominator linked.(KIENGIR (talk) 10:24, 5 December 2020 (UTC))
- One article, but rewrite the lead. To the arguments given by Mathglot above, I'd like to add the dictionary definitions by Merriam-Webster[1] and OED ("a native or inhabitant of Germany, or a person of German descent"). @KIENGIR: Why do you think that the current order is the "wisest and sane" order ? --Rsk6400 (talk) 10:34, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
- I explained everything in the talk page sections I referred.(KIENGIR (talk) 10:40, 5 December 2020 (UTC))
- Leave as is/One article with the ethnic definition appearing first. Wikipedia is not a dictionary, but an encyclopedia. It primarily covers encyclopedic topics rather than terms. This means that this article should be about a topic on Germans rather than the term Germans. Of the tertiary sources so far provided in this discussion, only five are actual encyclopedic entries on Germans which addresses them directly and in detail:
- Haarmann, Harald (2015). "Germans". In Danver, Steven (ed.). Native Peoples of the World: An Encyclopedia of Groups, Cultures and Contemporary Issues. Routledge. pp. 313–316. ISBN 1317464001.
- Moser, Johannes (2011). "Germans". In Cole, Jeffrey (ed.). Ethnic Groups of Europe: An Encyclopedia. ABC-CLIO. pp. 171–177. ISBN 1598843028.
- Minahan, James (2000). "Germans". One Europe, Many Nations: A Historical Dictionary of European National Groups. Greenwood Publishing Group. pp. 287–294. ISBN 0313309841.
- "Germans". Columbia Electronic Encyclopedia. Columbia University Press. 2013. Retrieved December 5, 2020.
- Waldman, Carl; Mason, Catherine (2005). "Germans". Encyclopedia of European Peoples. Infobase Publishing. pp. 330–335. ISBN 1438129181.
- Source (1), (2), (3), cover the Germans as an ethnic group, source (4) covers Germanic peoples, while source (5) covers the Germans as a nationality. Source (1) and (2) are recent sources written by German university professors (Harald Haarmann and Johannes Moser), while source (5) is a relatively old source written by non-scholars. The German ethnic group has therefore received more notable and reliable coverage than the German nationality, and the German ethnic group is therefore the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for this article.
- German nationality is already covered at German nationality law, while inhabitants of Germany are covered at Demographics of Germany. I don't think it would be helpful to duplicate the scope of those articles here, and thereby virtually delete our article on the ethnic group Germans. The German ethnic group is one of the most numerous in the world (100-150 million according to Moser), and should certainly serve as the primary topic of a Wikipedia article.
- The German ethnic group has existed for around 1000 years, while the German nationality did not come into existence until the unification of Germany in the 19th century. After the unification of Germany, there were still millions of Germans (Baltic Germans, Volga Germans etc.) who were not of German nationality. In terms of time and space, the ethnic concept is the broadest understanding of the term Germans, and therefore the WP:BROADCONCEPT for Germans.
- For these reasons, i believe the ethnic definition should appear first, but that we can add a notice for the fact that the term "Germans" may mean other things, as has already been done. I believe this is consistent with our source material, our policies, and related articles such as Greeks, Armenians, Albanians, Russians etc. Krakkos (talk) 11:20, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
- I'm not sure if people are supposed to talk here, but the section is named "survey", so I'm assuming it is. I strongly support this position, it is pretty amusing how the Germans being an ethnicity is being questioned. Super Ψ Dro 12:07, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
- So, you're drawing a conclusion that "the ethnic definition should appear first", based on the five out of twelve sources which have an article with a definition that supports your claim, rather than on the seven which do not? Mathglot (talk) 10:45, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Krakkos: In addition to what Mathglot said: Your sources 1,2,3, and 5 are irrelevant for the question. All of them focus on ethnology and so they are naturally bound to prefer the ethnic definition. I bet that it would be quite easy to find dozens of legal or sociological works ignoring the ethnic definition. That's why I think only general encyclopedias or dictionaries can support one or the other of the two conflicting views here. Your source 4 is based on books from 1960 and 1971. @Super Dromaeosaurus: Nobody is questioning that Germans are an ethnicity. The question is whether the ethnic definition is the main definition. --Rsk6400 (talk) 12:03, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Mathglot: As far as i can see, out of the twelve tertiary sources listed in the section below, only five (listed by me in the comment above) address the topic of Germans directly and in detail. I believe we should draw our conclusions on the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC of this article from such sources. Three of those sources, including the two most reliable, address Germans as an ethnic topic. This suggests that the ethnic topic is the primary topic of this article. Krakkos (talk) 13:38, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Krakkos: I responded to you in the discussion below. Mathglot (talk) 20:32, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Rsk6400: The question is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for Germans. The primary topic for an article is the topic which has received the largest amount of notable coverage. Notable coverage is coverage which addresses the topic directly and in detail. Five of the twelve tertiary sources listed in the section below address Germans directly and in detail. Those five sources (listed by me in the comment above) are therefore of great relevance to this question. Three of those sources (excluding source 4), including the two most reliable, address Germans as an ethnic topic. The ethnic topic thus appears to be the primary topic for Germans. The legal topic of Germans is already addressed at German nationality law. Duplicating that legal topic here would not be an improvement. Krakkos (talk) 13:38, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Mathglot: As far as i can see, out of the twelve tertiary sources listed in the section below, only five (listed by me in the comment above) address the topic of Germans directly and in detail. I believe we should draw our conclusions on the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC of this article from such sources. Three of those sources, including the two most reliable, address Germans as an ethnic topic. This suggests that the ethnic topic is the primary topic of this article. Krakkos (talk) 13:38, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Krakkos: In addition to what Mathglot said: Your sources 1,2,3, and 5 are irrelevant for the question. All of them focus on ethnology and so they are naturally bound to prefer the ethnic definition. I bet that it would be quite easy to find dozens of legal or sociological works ignoring the ethnic definition. That's why I think only general encyclopedias or dictionaries can support one or the other of the two conflicting views here. Your source 4 is based on books from 1960 and 1971. @Super Dromaeosaurus: Nobody is questioning that Germans are an ethnicity. The question is whether the ethnic definition is the main definition. --Rsk6400 (talk) 12:03, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
- One article plus a subsection in another The IMHO only logical way to handle the dual meaning of "Germans" is to move this article to Germans (ethnic group), removing everything that deals with the nationality from that article, and leaving Germans as a redirect to the article about the ethnic group, with a pointer to the demographics section of Germany (or a new subsection about nationality and citizenship) at the top of Germans (ethnic group). Because German nationality has everything to do with the Federal Republic of Germany (where there are members of many ethnicities) but very little to do with the ethnic group (since there are ethnic German minorities in several countries in Europe, in addition to the ethnic Germans in the federal republic...). - Tom | Thomas.W talk 14:07, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
- This is a viable, probably even the best (if not the only) solution. It's a pity this option wasn't offered in the list of choices in the Rfc statement, because I
would have votedam voting for it. Mathglot (talk) 19:07, 6 December 2020 (UTC) updated by Mathglot (talk) 17:33, 7 December 2020 (UTC)- I'm not sure that the only logical way to handle the dual meaning is to move this article to a page title that says "(ethnic group)". I think it equally logical to leave this here and to move all the legal stuff to a page whose title says something like "(nationality)" or "(residents)" or "(citizens)" or "(legal status)". But leaving aside that quibble, I do think that having two articles would address the small amount of legitimate confusion, and perhaps renaming this article to "(ethnic group)" would solve the problem of a few people feeling excluded and hurt because the article titled "Germans" doesn't include people with non-German ancestors. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:47, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
- This is a viable, probably even the best (if not the only) solution. It's a pity this option wasn't offered in the list of choices in the Rfc statement, because I
- It would be a much worse solution. For legal stuff we already have German nationality law, and again, in this article German citizens are not excluded, read the lead so the remark in your last sentence does not hold (anyway we don't write articles based on who would be hurt (???).(KIENGIR (talk) 12:37, 7 December 2020 (UTC))
- The main subject of this article is, and has been for at least a decade, (only) an ethnic group, regardless of where those people live or what their legal situation is. Some ethnically German people are German citizens; others are not. Some German citizens are ethnically Germans people; others are not. The main subject of this article is people whose families came from the the large number of central European places that approximately correspond to the current legal borders of the modern state of Germany.
- The central problem is not the content of the articles. IMO the central problem is that a few editors are unhappy that the page title of "Germans" points to an ethnically exclusive group, and does not include any German citizens with non-German ancestry. They might feel like this title implies that the grandchildren of Turkish immigrants to Germany, who have only ever lived in the state of Germany and who speak only the German language, are "not really Germans".
- We can solve this problem without pretending that a person who can trace their ancestry back through five generations of Prussians is in the same ethnic group as a person who can trace their ancestry back through seven generations of Turks. For example, "Germans" could become a disambiguation page that essentially asks the readers to decide whether they want to read about ethnic groups or citizenship. We could also do that by emphasizing the scope of the article more clearly – essentially hanging out a "You're probably in the wrong article!" sign at the top of the page. But IMO we should not muddle ethnicity and legal status by making the article be about anyone and everyone who has any claim at all to calling themselves "German". WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:19, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
- It would be a much worse solution. For legal stuff we already have German nationality law, and again, in this article German citizens are not excluded, read the lead so the remark in your last sentence does not hold (anyway we don't write articles based on who would be hurt (???).(KIENGIR (talk) 12:37, 7 December 2020 (UTC))
- That's an interesting and creative idea, and I too wish I'd thought of it when I created the Rfc. (To play devil's advocate, though: if there are articles on other peoples that aren't today identified primarily by their ethnicity, like Americans and Canadians, there's no reason not to have an article on Germans.) I was wondering what the way forward for this debate would be, given the fact that it doesn't look as though a clear consensus is emerging from this Rfc. Even though it wasn't a given option, maybe
Mathglot'sThomas.W's suggestion would be one most editors can get behind? --Tserton (talk) 13:02, 7 December 2020 (UTC)- Thomas.W's idea has its problems.
removing everything that deals with the nationality from that article
would mean to remove e.g. sports (there are several players in the German national teams who are not ethnic Germans), literature (Heinrich Heine was a Jew, i.e. he is excluded by the condition "common ancestry and history", Navid Kermani is not an ethnic German), remove Helmut Kohl and Angela Merkel (they were not elected by the ethnic group) and so on. --Rsk6400 (talk) 20:09, 7 December 2020 (UTC)- But maybe that's a good idea? WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:20, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
- Specifically, it would be inappropriate to remove notable ethnic Germans from an article about ethnic Germans, but it would be appropriate to remove people who are not usually considered (by reliable sources) to be ethnic Germans from this article. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:23, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Thomas.W: @Mathglot: @WhatamIdoing: The more I think about this, the more I think it's a box of worms, for two reasons: (1) the truncated article "Germans (ethnicity)" would be either extremely short or extremely arbitrary and (2) there is at least one section that really belongs in a more general article on Germans.
- I've had a look through Germans to see what would be left in a hypothetical "Germans (ethnicity)" article. In its current state, Germans is essentially a shortened version of Germany - a bit of a hodgepodge of German history, the German language, German culture, and Demographics of Germany, all of which have their own articles. But presupposing such a collection of information is worth reproducing in this form (which I assume is a decision Wikipedia made long ago), the only things that are really relevant to ethnicity are history, language, and Geographic distribution. The article would be about one-third of its current length. That isn't a problem in itself, but it represents a major bit of surgery. Even if we decided to keep the list of famous Germans (currently under "culture") but excise everyone who doesn't meet the ethnic cutoff (which would be deeply arbitrary - do Nowitzki, Beethoven, Liszt and Mendelssohn make the cut? Do we include Austrians, who have their own article?) the existence of such a list would also imply the encyclopedic relevance of a corresponding list of famous Germans independent of ethnicity. Which I assume would go into an article called simply "Germans" or "German people."
- Then there's still the question of what to do with the only section of the article that isn't currently duplicated somewhere else: German identity, which is (today) independent of ethnicity and wouldn't belong in a "Germans (ethnicity)" article. --Tserton (talk) 06:10, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
- WhatamIdoing, you still did not read the lead? You pointed "that the page title of "Germans" points to an ethnically exclusive group, and does not include any German citizens with non-German ancestry." -> so you think the pages Estonians, Finns, Hungarians, Slovaks, Romanians would be as well incorrect? Just because some supposed feelings, which are irrelevant and unprofessional, Germans may be unleashed and it's main meaning? Also we will not use the term "blonde", because it may hurt the people who are not blond or paint their hair? Or Black, Red, Brunette or Purple? So go and please read the lead -> Any person counting with German citizenship may also be regarded as a German, this including the immigrant population of Germany. Point. Any suggestions you are contemplating here trying to reinwent the wheel, just causes more deep problems, and all these fuss is made by some who think they are very correct with some individuals who may feel possibly hurt (!). This cannot be taken serious anymore, since hundreds of years it is obvious that from the nation it's citizens are not excluded, shall the subject have any origin, etc. Anyway none of you should reiterate long discussions that have been already discussed, this place is not meant for that primarily, given the fact the page and lead is not anymore in that form when the already referred preliminary discussions started.(KIENGIR (talk) 11:53, 8 December 2020 (UTC))
- But maybe that's a good idea? WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:20, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
- Thomas.W's idea has its problems.
- One article with a rewritten lead, mentioning nationality first. Many editors on both sides of this issue seem to be surprised by the people more familiar with either the ethnic or non-ethnic usage of the word Germans. (I personally concede that I only hear the ethnic sense used in occasional, very specific situations.) All of us have different backgrounds and probably come from different countries, so it's perhaps not surprising that there are sharp differences in how we understand a term with such a rich and complicated history. But Wikipedia is an evidence-based project, and based on the evidence: while both meanings of the word are in common use, the non-ethnic usage is today the more widespread. I'd like to underscore this is not about political correctness or trying to stop "a few people from feeling bad" (although I'm not sure if 25% of the German citizenry qualifies as "a few people.") Rather, it's a matter of accuracy.--Tserton (talk) 13:22, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
- From the above discussion and reading the various sources I too support one broad concept article. "Feeling bad" is not the issue, the issue is modern documented conceptualizations. I do not express a particular order, but the unsourced second clause of the present first sentence of this article seems very unclear, if not imaginary. Who are these people "who share a common German ancestry, culture, and history" (emphasis added)? That unsourced cumulative commonalities list seems like it could only be a tiny, tiny group somewhere, if it exists at all: is there common German ancestry, given the history of western, central and northern Europe (a German Adam and Eve that have passed down a specific DNA perhaps?); common culture(?), the cultures in various parts of Germany today differ, don't they, otherwise why would anyone talk about Bavarians, etc.? -- and on top of that, what about peoples outside of modern Germany that this article wants to discuss, they have no cultures of there own?; common history? isn't so much of the history fragmented in Europe alone, and then there is the rest of world and time periods this article wants to cover. (Just one small illustration, there are probably people descended today from those who migrated to the U.S. from Bayreuth, Breslau, Bern or Budapest, etc, who may call themselves German Americans, what's common?). Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:45, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
- One article. I would oppose having a separate article. The debate appears to touch on issues that aren’t particular to Germans - the distinction in usage between “Germans” meaning German citizen or meaning of German ethnicity (as self-identified based on mother tongue, religion, culture etc.) could be applied to any European country (and wider), and the words in the example edit could apply to the article of any nationality. As far as contemporary usage is concerned, I agree with Tserton that reading “German” you’d think of nationality first, and only ethnicity if the context so implied. The WP article on ethnicities of Europe treats Austrians as a separate ethnicity, and that is just one of the issues you’d be straight into in writing an article about German language speakers across Europe. Historically, however, things aren’t so clear. Before the 19th century, Germany did not exist as nation, yet many histories refer to “Germans” in earlier centuries, based on language in a similar way that you find with other language groups that haven’t always had a discrete political unit on the map, such as Hungarians or Poles. So any reference to “Germans” before the 19th century means ethnicity. The more I think about this, the more I think this is a wider issue about the agreed definitions and scope for all WP articles based on ethnicities/nationalities (the ones I reviewed do seem to lead off with ethnicity in a historical context) with rather less specific to “Germans” than might at first appear. As such this discussion needs to go wider, and elsewhere. MapReader (talk) 16:53, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks for your input! I wish there had been more participation in this Rfc. The Rfc is an offshoot of a wider discussion at WikiProject Ethnic groups about how ethnicities and nationalities are treated on Wikipedia. The discussion kept using Germans as a case study / example and became more and more specific to that page, so eventually it made sense to bring it here. I fully agree with you that the arguments put forth on this talk page would also apply to other nations (highly multiethnic societies like French people, Dutch people, etc. are especially striking). I think a broader discussion would make sense and would be open to starting/participating in one - but far-reaching changes like that would require pretty broad participation, and we've had difficulty hammering out a concrete consensus even on this more focused topic. --Tserton (talk) 23:31, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
References
- ^ "Definition of German by Merriam-Webster". Retrieved 2020-11-25.
Discussion
Survey of tertiary literature
Reliable tertiary sources, such as published encyclopedias, are a good proxy for what the majority of reliable, independent, secondary sources say, and and may be helpful in evaluating due weight. We can survey tertiary sources, which are more limited in number, to estimate what secondary sources are saying. Such a survey can give us some hard data which will increase our confidence that we are reading the secondary sources correctly, and in the right proportion, which can help resolve the Rfc question.
Here is a summary of what some tertiary sources say about this issue, discovered during the related discussion at WT:ETHNIC:
- Encyclopedia Britannica: no entry for "Germans." Edit (02:43, 30 November 2020 (UTC)): Encyclopedia Britannica does discuss Germans under the entry "Germany" and describes the term extremely broadly: "The German-speaking peoples—which include the inhabitants of Germany as well as those of Austria, Liechtenstein, and the major parts of Switzerland and Luxembourg; small portions of France, Belgium, the Netherlands, and Italy; and the remnants of German communities in eastern Europe—are extremely heterogeneous in their ethnic origins, dialectal divisions, and political and cultural heritage....The Germans, in their various changes of territory, inevitably intermingled with other peoples." [1]
- Native Peoples of the World: An Encyclopedia of Groups, Cultures and Contemporary Issues (2015): Doesn't explicitly define Germans, but uses the word to denote both ethnic Germans and German citizens. Emphasizes linguistic ties for identity. "Germans are a Germanic (or Teutonic) people that are indigenous to Central Europe. Of the 100 million German speakers worldwide, about three-quarters (76 million) live in Germany....after centuries of political fragmentation, a sense of national unity as Germans began to evolve in the eighteenth century, and the German language became a key marker of national identity."[2] Thanks to Krakkos for finding.
- Ethnic Groups of Europe: An Encyclopedia (2011): Doesn't explicitly define Germans, but uses the word to denote both ethnic Germans and German citizens. Emphasizes linguistic ties for identity. "The Germans live in Central Europe, mostly in Germany (82.2 million inhabitants, of whom 75 million speak German), and in many countries around the world, both as German expatriates and as citizens of other countries who identify culturally as German and speak the language....German identity developed through a long historical process that led to the definition of the German nation as both a community of descent (Volksgemeinschaft) and shared culture and experience. Today, the German language is the primary though not exclusive criterion of German identity." [3] Thanks to Krakkos for finding.
- One Europe, Many Nations: A Historical Dictionary of European National Groups (2000): Describes Germans mostly as an ethnic group, but also evidently includes recent immigrants in the population figure: "The Germans are an ancient ethnic group, the basic stock in the composition of the peoples of Germany, Scandinavia....approximately 83,885,000 Germans [live] in Europe, the majority in Germany, but with substantial German populations in Belgium, Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland, Slovenia and Romania." [4] Thanks to Krakkos for finding. --Tserton (talk) 01:55, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
- Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Encyclopedia: no entry for "Germans." (would be on p.648 if there were one) [5] Mathglot (talk) 05:34, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
- Encyclopedia of European Peoples: has an entry for Germans, but makes no mention of ethnicity, instead focusing on history and culture.[6] --Tserton (talk) 02:43, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
- Columbia Encyclopedia – Describes Germans as a "large ethnic complex of ancient Europe" and listing the modern countries of Sweden, Germany, Austria, Switzerland, the Low Countries, and England, and putting it in historical context back to pre-Christian Rome. (One-volume 'pedia, 950pp; Germans article is about two column-inches.)[7] Mathglot (talk) 05:34, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
- Encyclopédie Larousse – Nothing for Allemands (Germans), peuple allemand (German people), and so on; though it has entries for Hongrois (Hungarians), Finnois (Finns), and Basques.[8] Mathglot (talk) 07:35, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
- Gran enciclopèdia catalana – Nothing for alemanys (Germans) [search link; no article], poble alemany (German people), and so on; though it has entries for magiar (Hungarians), finès (Finns), and basc (Basques).[9] Mathglot (talk) 07:58, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
- Europa-Lexikon: Länder, Politik, Institutionen: Does not describe Germans as a people, but does list the German population of Germany as the number of people with German citizenship. [10]--Tserton (talk) 11:21, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
- Oxford World Encyclopedia: No entry for Germans; entry for "Germany" does not describe people of Germany.[11]--Tserton (talk) 00:06, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
- Europe: A Concise Encyclopedia: No entry for Germans; entry for "Germany" does not describe people of Germany.[12]--Tserton (talk) 00:22, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
Click [show] to view references for tertiary sources
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References
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Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 05:43, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
- I believe German linguist de:Ulrich Ammon who cites many others says it best for our situation Ulrich Ammon (2019). The Position of the German Language in the World. Taylor & Francis. p. 107. ISBN 978-1-351-65489-0.
... the more broadly formulated concept of "German ethnicity (membership of people/nationality)" seems more appropriate for many purposes, as does the definition based on a person's declaration of such membership....
.--Moxy 🍁 15:03, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
Fallacy of incomplete evidence
I wanted to respond to Krakkos' argument above about the ethnic definition of Germans in the Survey section. Krakkos, you !voted for "One article with the ethnic definition appearing first", and in support of this choice, you pointed out correctly, that of the twelve tertiary sources, only five mention the ethnic aspect, so you chose to examine those five sources exclusively and base your conclusion upon what you found there. But this is an example of the fallacy of incomplete evidence, and does not prove your point, it merely confirms what you already believed, without viewing the full picture.
To illustrate what I mean, consider the following hypothetical thought experiment: some Wikipedia editors are looking at the Origin of life article, and wondering about astrobiogenesis[a]—the theory that life was seeded on Earth by intelligent aliens who spawned the human race. As a way to determine majority and minority views on the topic of origin of life, editors examine two dozen encyclopedias or other tertiary sources, mostly general ones, as well as some specializing in astronomy, exobiology, and ufology. The result is, that only six of them mention astrobiogenesis at all: four ufology encyclopedias or almanacs, one exobiology encyclopedia, and one astronomy encyclopedia in passing. From this, Wikipedia editors from "WikiProject UFOlogy" conclude the following:
"The primary topic for an article is the topic which has received the largest amount of notable coverage. Five of the 24 tertiary sources listed in the section below address astrobiogensisis directly and in detail. Those five sources are therefore of great relevance to this question. Four of those sources (excluding the exobiology encyclopedia) address astrobiogenesis as a viable life origin theory. Based on four out of five, the astrobiogenesis topic thus appears to be the primary topic for "origin of life on Earth".
Do you see the fallacy in their thinking? They regard the fact that numerous tertiary sources fail to mention astrobiogenesis, as meaning they play no part in the examination to determine the primary topic per WP:DUE WEIGHT. But this is false: the lack of an "astrobiogenesis" article in 18 general encyclopedias is in fact conclusive, and relegates the the five that do cover it to a minority point of view. By selecting only those five to examine, the Ufology Project editors fell into the fallacy of incomplete evidence, and their conclusion is erroneous.
In my view, picking only the five encyclopedias that say something about ethnic Germans, and ignoring the rest that do not, amounts to the same thing and is not a valid way of evaluating what the primary topic is here. In addition, of the five sources you chose, four of them are ethnology sources, as Rsk6400 already pointed out, and as the Law of the instrument says, "To a man with a hammer, every problem looks like a nail." Mathglot (talk) 20:32, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
Notes
- ^ Astrobiogenesis – this is a fake word; I made it up.
Another attempt at a compromise
What about That would mean replacing "ethnic group" with "people" and dropping the unsourced clause "who share a common German ancestry, culture, and history." Whether "Germanic" should be included or not is open to further discussion. "People" (Volk) may be understood as a synonym for "ethnic group", but it may also be understood as the group of German citizens. Although some Germans today think the word might be used to promote nationalist ideas, it is used in official language (e.g. in the oath a member of the German government has to take and in central parts of the German constitution - E.g. Article 20: "(2) All state authority is derived from the people."), where it is understood in the latter sense. --Rsk6400 (talk) 08:47, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
The Germans (German: Deutsche) are a people native to Central Europe.
?
- May I ask how you define Nativeness and how you differenciate between People and Nation, in this specific case? --−Sargoth 08:33, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
- I wouldn’t support a proposal that by its vagueness or ambiguity let everyone read into it whether it did or didn’t include ethnicity; that’s not a compromise it’s just a cop-out which doesn’t solve anything. What about a high school student who came here with no preconceptions at all and just wanted to learn; being wishy-washy about the definition doesn’t really inform it just confuses. If sources disagree or if it means two different things, then just say that. Mathglot (talk) 10:28, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks for pointing to the problems of my attempt. Next try:
The Germans (German: Deutsche) are a people whose history is linked to the inhabitants of Central Europe in antiquity. While the constitution of Germany defines "the German people" as the group of German citizens, persons of German descent or native speakers of German living outside Germany may also identify as ethnic Germans.
--Rsk6400 (talk) 16:01, 9 December 2020 (UTC)- Better, especially the second sentence, but the first sentence pushes off the vagueness or uncertainty onto the expression a people.[a] Don't be discouraged; at least you're putting out concrete proposals, which is what we need. Plus, I'm only one person; I wish others would chime in as well. But as long as you're working within the confnes of a single article named "Germans", I'm not sure how this can be dealt with other than listing multiple definitions or doing a BCA. Mathglot (talk) 22:22, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Mathglot: I already wrote two new versions of the first sentence(s):
The term Germans (German: Deutsche) has several interrelated meanings: It can denote natives or inhabitants of Germany, or persons of German descent, or native speakers of the German language.
andGermans (German: Deutsche) are the people who are identified with Germany. The term may be used as a synonym for the citizens of Germany or ethnic Germans who are native to Central Europe, and who share a common German ancestry, culture, and history.
Both were reverted by KIENGIR, sadly without giving any substantiated reasons. I still don't see a possible way of defining two groups for two different articles. Every aspect of social life in Germany today includes Germans who are not "ethnic Germans". E.g. you can't talk about German literature today without mentioning Navid Kermani, born in Germany to Iranian parents. But you cannot talk about it either without mentioning Herta Müller, an ethnic German from Romania who already was an author before she relocated to Germany. Even associations for preserving traditional regional culture in Germany have members whose parents immigrated from Spain, Turkey or Nigeria. --Rsk6400 (talk) 09:32, 10 December 2020 (UTC)- I have to warn you again to avoid that misleading statement like without giving any substantiated reasons. I did, more places, more times, as well others did. Disliking it does not mean they did not happen.(KIENGIR (talk) 17:45, 10 December 2020 (UTC))
- While I agree that the term "people" is a little woolly, that woolliness simply reflects the complexity of the issue and I would be okay with Rsk6400's suggestion. As for explicitly noting the ambiguitiy, a previous iteration of the lead that clearly called out the ambiguity was reverted (as Rsk6400 noted), but at this point I would argue that the reverting user was and is engaging in status-quo stonewalling and is unlikely to agree to anything more than token changes. It's worth noting that the votes are currently 6:2 in favor of some kind of major revision of the article, and rewriting the lead might be the "lowest common denominator" of those options. Of course, consensus is not the result of a vote, and it would still be preferable to have a consensus hammered out by the participation of a wide range of users. But nor is consensus unanimity, and we shouldn't discard options just because they were rejected by a single user uninterested in compromise and consensus. So with that in mind, how about:
"Germans (German: Deutsche) are people who identify with Germany by citizenship, culture, ethnicity or heritage. The term once referred primarily to ethnic Germans, an ethnic group that emerged in antiquity from central Europe, but today is also widely used to describe German citizens independent of ethnicity."
I think this sort of "teaches the controversy" and can be backed up by the literature. Alternatively, we could go for simplicity and call out the ambiguity right in the first line:Germans (German: Deutsche) can refer both to citizens of Germany and to ethnic Germans or their descendants. While the constitution of Germany defines "the German people" as the group of German citizens, persons of German descent or native speakers of German living outside Germany may also identify as ethnic Germans.
--Tserton (talk) 03:46, 14 December 2020 (UTC)- Another proposal, more sweeping and hopefully hitting the right notes:
The term Germans has historically had several overlapping and interrelated meanings, reflective of the changing borders of central Europe and of immigration into and within this region. Since the Middle Ages, it has referred to ethnic Germans throughout central and eastern Europe. Members of the German diaspora also sometimes identify as Germans culturally, ethnically or by heritage. While these meanings continue to be used in many contexts, Germans today widely refers to citizens of the modern-day country of Germany, irrespective of ethnicity or descent.
A chronological approach lists the ethnic meaning first without giving it undue weight. Thoughts? --Tserton (talk) 04:22, 14 December 2020 (UTC)- I'm OK with all three proposals, but have a slight preference for the second one ("... can refer both to ..."), because the constitution plays an important role in modern discussions on Germanness, see e.g. Constitutional patriotism. --Rsk6400 (talk) 06:34, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- Tserton, telling different the story as it happened is never useful in our community, since it may be verified (it could not be status quo stonewalling, since I subsequently modified/updated the text, etc.), so I have also warn you to stop misleading representation of the events. On the other hand, the current lead is not anymore the lead as it was - and the latest modifications were not even carried out by me - and should satisfy everybody because they reflect even more that you wanted. On the other hand your proposals contaning to much verbiage and dubious explanations, however like refer both to ethnic Germans, citizens of Germany or their descendants would seem the most fine, if I would combinate from the recent proprosals.(KIENGIR (talk) 16:50, 14 December 2020 (UTC))
- To the the editors in favor of keeping the ethnic definition first, @Jort93, Krakkos, and WhatamIdoing: does the most recent compromise proposal, or a variation thereof (please do make suggestions), sound acceptable to you? ("
The term Germans has historically had several overlapping and interrelated meanings, reflective of the changing borders of central Europe and of immigration into and within this region. Since the Middle Ages, it has referred to ethnic Germans throughout central and eastern Europe. Members of the German diaspora also sometimes identify as Germans culturally, ethnically or by heritage. While these meanings continue to be used in many contexts, Germans today widely refers to citizens of the modern-day country of Germany, irrespective of ethnicity or descent.
") I genuinely think most of us agree more than we disagree on this issue and can find a solution everyone's broadly okay with.--Tserton (talk) 12:16, 21 December 2020 (UTC)- @Tserton: I believe a solution like that would be acceptable. Jort93 (talk) 13:21, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
- The lead of the article has already been substantially rewritten, and thus already represents a compromise. The proposal above is not an improvement in my opinion. The proposal treats Germans as a term rather than a concept, which is a violation of WP:NAD. The proposal does not appear to be based on any source material, and contradicts the key tertiary sources previously mentioned in this discussion. There appears to be universal agreement on Wikipedia that German ethnicity and German citizenship is not the same thing. German citizenship is already covered at German nationality law. Several editors, including WhatamIdoing, Super Dromaeosaurus, KIENGIR, Thomas.W, LeftiePete, Staberinde and myself, have supported maintaining an article on German ethnicity. Germany is and has always been a multi-ethnic country, and i believe Wikipedia should have an article about the most numerous ethnicity in that country, namely the Germans, just like we have articles about Greeks, Armenians and Albanians and other ethnic groups with nation states. Krakkos (talk) 14:09, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
- I am opposed to every single proposal that excludes the definition of Germans primarily as an ethnic group. I think the current version is the most adequate. I don't understand what is the need to include German immigrants and put them on the same level as ethnic Germans whose ancestors have lived on Germany for centuries. I have seen an editor declare "you can't talk about German literature today without mentioning Navid Kermani, born in Germany to Iranian parents". Sorry, but try as you might, Kermani is an ethnic Iranian. This does not mean that he cannot contribute to German literature and society, that would be something stupid and primitive to think. But ethnicity is not something that can be molded, it is not something that can be changed. Personally, I am an ethnic Romanian in Spain. No matter what I do, whether I become the most famous writer, the richest businessman in the country or the president of the government, I am not going to magically become an ethnic Spaniard. And the same would apply for a German living in Iran, don't think I am discriminating immigrants from Germany for being Muslim, Asian or something like that. Super Ψ Dro 14:55, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
- Concur with Krakkos and Super, the new proposal has an extensive verbiage and we don't have to give a history lesson in the lead, which anyway would stand similarly for any other nation. I reiterate, the current lead is just perfect all this issue already reached it's goal.(KIENGIR (talk) 15:09, 21 December 2020 (UTC))
- @Tserton: While I think it’s important to mention that “Germans” may refer to either ethnic Germans or the citizens of Germany, your claim that the term “Germans” in modern contexts is “widely used to describe German citizens independent of ethnicity” is your own opinion and is not supported by any of the sources used in the article. Do you have any sources to support your claim?--LeftiePete (talk) 15:19, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
- Ever since Germany became a nation-state in 1871, it has been a multi-ethnic country. There have been Jews, Poles, Gypsies, Danes, etc, living in Germany for decades and decades. In parts of Eastern Germany, there were historically large settlements of Slavs and 20% of Germans in Eastern Germany have paternal Slavic ancestry and 20% of Germans have Slavic surnames. Also, even when the term “Germans” in the late 19th century and early 20th century was generally associated with the völkisch movement, the German people or, as they were known as then, the German Volk, were still viewed by anthropologists as a racially mixed group like any other group. Heck, as much we shouldn’t care what the Nazis thought, even they used the term “German or related blood” in the Nuremberg Laws which dealt with citizenship.
- Also, we need to remember that in the last 100 years the term “Germans” has changed even with regards to it being used from an ethnic point of view. For example, the Austrians up until 1945 considered themselves to be Germans and it took up until about 30 years ago before the vast majority of them considered themselves to be a separate group from the Germans and most Austrians today would find it offensive to be called German.--LeftiePete (talk) 16:02, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Super Dromaeosaurus and Krakkos: I think we're kind of talking past each other. No one wants to erase Kermani's Iranian ethnicity, or remove mentions of ethnic Germans from the article. All of us clearly agree that Germans has multiple distinct context-dependant meanings. This is about covering these multiple uses and giving them due weight in the lead, nothing more. I can understand that you're nonplussed by editors for whom "German" doesn't refer primarily to the ethnic group, just like I (and many others here) are surprised by the reverse. In situations like that, we should rely especially carefully on evidence. And there's considerable evidence of both of these meanings.--Tserton (talk) 13:50, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
- @LeftiePete: I admit that the "widely" in "Germans today widely refers to citizens..." might be too emphatic for a topic this divisive. How about "also"? (
...While these meanings continue to be used in many contexts, Germans today also refers to citizens of the modern-day country of Germany, irrespective of ethnicity or descent.
) If you'd prefer, we could also remove the "irrespective of ethnicity and descent," since that's already implied. As for sources: I was definitely planning on sourcing the changes we make. Most of the sources currently used in the article are used for highly specific citations, but some of the more general ones do cover the non-ethnic use of the word (although many were removed by Krakkos earlier today in an unrelated edit), and some also address its evolution over time. For example:- Ethnic Groups of Europe: An Encyclopedia" by Jeffrey Cole, 2011: The Germans live in Central Europe, mostly in Germany (82.2 million inhabitants, of whom 75 million speak German), and in many countries around the world, both as German expatriates and as citizens of other countries who identify culturally as German and speak the language....German identity developed through a long historical process that led to the definition of the German nation as both a community of descent (Volksgemeinschaft) and shared culture and experience. Today, the German language is the primary though not exclusive criterion of German identity.
- Most of the tertiary sources (see Mathglot's post, above) also at least acknowledge the ambiguity, but I know Wikipedia prefers secondary sources. But there are plenty of those, e.g.:
- The new Germans: a country facing its future by H. Munkler, M. Munkler, 2016 (I only have access to the German original, but I believe there's a translation out.) Describes a recently emerged civic identity for "who is German".
- https://www.economist.com/special-report/2018/04/12/how-germany-and-the-germans-have-changed
- Then there are thousands of mundane news articles referring to non-ethnic Germans as simply "German."
- https://medium.com/cv-vc/philipp-r%C3%B6sler-becomes-president-of-the-new-advisory-board-of-cv-vc-93234f3786c5
- https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/29/merkel-heckled-by-german-mps-as-she-defends-second-soft-covid-lockdown ("Citing an interview with the German science writer Mai Thi Nguyen-Kim..."
- https://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/07/sports/tennis/07petkovic.html
- https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-05-05/coronavirus-research-moves-faster-than-medical-journals (quotes Ijad Madisch, "a German virologist")--Tserton (talk) 13:54, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
- Adding "also" wouldn't have a change too different from the current version of the lead. Perhaps we could add the part of "regardless of ethnicity or descent" into the sentence "Any person who has German citizenship may also be regarded as a German, including the immigrant population of Germany." Super Ψ Dro 14:08, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
- I definitely also want to change the lead to start with some variation of "Germans has multiple meanings" though. The survey of tertiary literature was clear on the dual meanings (and, in fact, suggested a non-ethnic usage to be the primary one), and the results of the Rfc, while differing in the specific preferred proposals, also largely favored treating both concepts at least equally. To quote my suggestion above (which everyone is invited to make suggestions to) again in its entirety: "
The term Germans has historically had several overlapping and interrelated meanings, reflective of the changing borders of central Europe and of immigration into and within this region. Since the Middle Ages, it has referred to ethnic Germans throughout central and eastern Europe. Members of the German diaspora also sometimes identify as Germans culturally, ethnically or by heritage. While these meanings continue to be used in many contexts, Germans today also refers to citizens of the modern-day country of Germany, irrespective of ethnicity or descent.
" --Tserton (talk) 14:28, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
- I definitely also want to change the lead to start with some variation of "Germans has multiple meanings" though. The survey of tertiary literature was clear on the dual meanings (and, in fact, suggested a non-ethnic usage to be the primary one), and the results of the Rfc, while differing in the specific preferred proposals, also largely favored treating both concepts at least equally. To quote my suggestion above (which everyone is invited to make suggestions to) again in its entirety: "
- I'd like to add two more sources to Tserton's list above:
- https://www.destatis.de/EN/Themes/Society-Environment/Population/Current-Population/Tables/liste-current-population.html (From the official site of the Federal Statistical Office of Germany, which knows only "Germans" and "Foreigners")
- https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/08/world/europe/germany-identity.html (2019 article of NYT about German identity]
- The NYT article states that "Two decades after the country stopped defining citizenship exclusively by ancestral bloodline, the far right and others have started distinguishing between “passport Germans” and “bio-Germans.”" - Meaning the current lede follows an outdated definition of Germanness which today is upheld by the far right. --Rsk6400 (talk) 19:42, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
- Stop these misleading statements, neither recent version was like that which today is upheld by the far right. Enough, really.(KIENGIR (talk) 23:25, 22 December 2020 (UTC))
- Adding "also" wouldn't have a change too different from the current version of the lead. Perhaps we could add the part of "regardless of ethnicity or descent" into the sentence "Any person who has German citizenship may also be regarded as a German, including the immigrant population of Germany." Super Ψ Dro 14:08, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Tserton: While I think it’s important to mention that “Germans” may refer to either ethnic Germans or the citizens of Germany, your claim that the term “Germans” in modern contexts is “widely used to describe German citizens independent of ethnicity” is your own opinion and is not supported by any of the sources used in the article. Do you have any sources to support your claim?--LeftiePete (talk) 15:19, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
- Concur with Krakkos and Super, the new proposal has an extensive verbiage and we don't have to give a history lesson in the lead, which anyway would stand similarly for any other nation. I reiterate, the current lead is just perfect all this issue already reached it's goal.(KIENGIR (talk) 15:09, 21 December 2020 (UTC))
- I am opposed to every single proposal that excludes the definition of Germans primarily as an ethnic group. I think the current version is the most adequate. I don't understand what is the need to include German immigrants and put them on the same level as ethnic Germans whose ancestors have lived on Germany for centuries. I have seen an editor declare "you can't talk about German literature today without mentioning Navid Kermani, born in Germany to Iranian parents". Sorry, but try as you might, Kermani is an ethnic Iranian. This does not mean that he cannot contribute to German literature and society, that would be something stupid and primitive to think. But ethnicity is not something that can be molded, it is not something that can be changed. Personally, I am an ethnic Romanian in Spain. No matter what I do, whether I become the most famous writer, the richest businessman in the country or the president of the government, I am not going to magically become an ethnic Spaniard. And the same would apply for a German living in Iran, don't think I am discriminating immigrants from Germany for being Muslim, Asian or something like that. Super Ψ Dro 14:55, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
- I'm OK with all three proposals, but have a slight preference for the second one ("... can refer both to ..."), because the constitution plays an important role in modern discussions on Germanness, see e.g. Constitutional patriotism. --Rsk6400 (talk) 06:34, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- Another proposal, more sweeping and hopefully hitting the right notes:
- @Mathglot: I already wrote two new versions of the first sentence(s):
- Better, especially the second sentence, but the first sentence pushes off the vagueness or uncertainty onto the expression a people.[a] Don't be discouraged; at least you're putting out concrete proposals, which is what we need. Plus, I'm only one person; I wish others would chime in as well. But as long as you're working within the confnes of a single article named "Germans", I'm not sure how this can be dealt with other than listing multiple definitions or doing a BCA. Mathglot (talk) 22:22, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks for pointing to the problems of my attempt. Next try:
Notes
- ^ A people – It's interesting that the term "a people" redirects to People, which has a hatnote which reads, "This article is about the collective usage "the people". For the collective usage "a people", see Ethnic group."
No such thing
As a German, I reject the very idea of such a thing as "German ethnicity", except maybe as a short-lived historical invention.
There is citizenship, and there are language skills. Both can be acquired by birth / as a first language or later in life, and there isn't too much ambiguity. What's left if you remove these from the concept of German "ethnicity"? People above have noticed that very little that would remain of the article in question when these concepts are excluded, and that's a testament to its accuracy.
If a baby is born to "ethnic Germans" but raised by French-speaking Canadians in Mexico, will that baby still be an "ethnic German"? If you believe so, the concept you have in mind is one of race. And we aren't going to go there for obvious reasons, but also because it would be scientifically wrong: there is likely more genetic difference between north and south Germans than, say, people from the Saar region and French, or some eastern German regions and Poland.
If the baby isn't "ethnic German", then the concept is merely about language skills, citizenship, and maybe cultural familiarity, in which case it's far easier to just state those attributes, since they tend to have universally-agreed definitions.
As the sources above show, there may be something not entirely unlike a historical concept of "Germanic tribes". But look at any map older than 200 years and you'll find (as the plural hints at), it's more of a catch-all for what's left in Europe once French/Polish/Italian are accounted for. At that time, these tribes were united mostly by the need to agree upon a limited, universally-understood set of insults to enable most of the communication deemed necessary.
If one were to insist on defining any German "identity" distinct from citizenship today, it would be one that emerged after 1945, and one of it's core tenets would be the rejection of a concept of ethnicity. Yes, this is about "feeling bad". But that "feeling bad" happens to be a concept that is more "real" than "ethnicity". Consider the Grundgesetz (basic law / constitution). It begins:
Conscious of their responsibility before God and man,
Inspired by the determination to promote world peace as an equal partner in a united Europe,
the German people, in the exercise of their constituent power, have adopted this Basic Law
People above referred to the mention of people (Volk) here as an invocation of something akin to ethnicity. But it should be noted that there are three references to "feeling bad" before "people": "conscious of responsibility" / "inspired to promote world peace" / "equal partner in a united Europe".
One long list of individual states (ethnicities?) later, it continues:
This Basic Law thus applies to the entire German people.
...which is helpful here to disambiguate the reference to "people". Nobody would argue that the German constitution does not apply to naturalised German citizens, or that it applies to Leonardo di Caprio because his Great-Grandma had an Ü in her name. The only valid interpretation is, therefore, at least every person with German citizenship, and, at least partially, everyone subject to German jurisdiction.
--Matthias Winkelmann (talk) 14:19, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Matthias Winkelmann: Thanks for pointing to those passages of the Basic Law. Let me emphasize the phrase
the German people ... have adopted this Basic Law
. This means that the definition of "being a German" given by the Basic Law is in fact how the German people wants to see itself, i.e. as a group including every citizen, regardless of ancestry. The current lede shows disrespect for the self-definition of the Germans as well as disregard for the sources. - On the other hand: While I totally agree with you that there is no possibility of defining a German "ethnic group" inside Germany, descendants of Germans living outside Germany may well self-identify (or be identified) as "ethnic Germans", e.g. Herta Müller (before she left her native Romania for Germany in 1987). --Rsk6400 (talk) 15:50, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
- Mathias Winkelmann,
- short-lived historical invention? Are you kidding? It has nothing to with babies born an raised in an other place, that would mean German ancestry. Ethnic meaning means what it means outside Germany or Germans, all around the world, as ethnic Hungarians, Romanians, Poles etc. may live outside their present-countries due to many reasons, they cannot be exluded. The lead appropriately reflects the triple interpretation inclusive now.(KIENGIR (talk) 23:32, 9 December 2020 (UTC))
- Denying the existance of the German ethnicity is a laughable joke and I can't believe it's still being pushed this hard. As a matter of fact, yes, an ethnic German baby raised by French-speaking Canadians in Mexico is still an ethnic German. What will be next, the German language isn't real either? Super Ψ Dro 14:35, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
- Some people reject the idea of ethnicity altogether. If you believe that a group of "people who identify with each other on the basis of shared attributes that distinguish them from other groups such as a common set of traditions, ancestry, language, history, society, culture, nation, religion, or social treatment within their residing area" is "not real" (e.g., because it's subjective; because it's changeable; because you think that culture is unimportant), then of course you would believe that there's no such thing as German ethnicity. You would also not "believe in" Mexican ethnicity, or Irish ethnicity, or Romani ethnicity, or French-Canadian ethnicity, or any identification with any other ethnic group.
- Technically, I believe that this hypothetical baby's ethnic group is whatever group of people the child grows up to identify with, and to be identified with by others. If that baby is raised to participate in French-Canadian culture and to believe that s/he is a French-Canadian person who just happens to live in Mexico, and if the local Mexican people treat this child as being "from away" rather than one of their own, then that baby will grow up to be an ethnic French-Canadian person, rather than ethnically either German or Mexican. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:53, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
- @WhatamIdoing: Both races and ethnic groups are social constructs. I mean, even today, some people associate certain physical characteristics with Jewish people, Chinese people, Indian people, Irish people, etc, which are what have been determined by different societies over time. Although scientific racism is still advocated by some people (typically those who hold far-right political views), it has been debunked for a long time. In fact, science tells us that 94% of physical variation happens between people of the same ‘race’.--LeftiePete (talk) 19:10, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
- ...ethnic groups are social constructs? For real? To be of an ethnic group, it is not enough to think that you are part of it. You can raise a baby as you want, teaching them the language, culture and national identity that you want. However, if the parents are for example Russian and the baby (let's say adopted) is Ukrainian, the baby will not be of Russian ethnicity. What if once this baby grows up, they meet their Ukrainian biological parents and decide to start carrying a Ukrainian identity? Has that person changed of ethnicity again? Ethnicity is not like, for example, gender. Gender is psychological and subjective. But ethnicity is carried in the genes and blood of an individual. You don't just change it. If you do not like your ethnicity, if you want to change it or if you want to include your foreign friend in the same as yours, you have to live with it, becuase you can't change it.
- By the way, the concept of ethnicity in the Americas is not the same as in Europe. America was colonized and therefore the people there are a mix of settlers, natives, etc., with lots of different backgrounds and ancestries. But Europe was never colonized and the people is generally homogeneously divided into nations. For this reason, the article of Canadians for example cannot be used as a comparison with this article. Super Ψ Dro 20:36, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
- Super Dromaeosaurus, I think you need to read the article on Ethnic group. I think you're confusing it with ancestry. Ethnicity is carried in culture, not DNA. If ethnicity were just a matter of DNA, then the world could have neither Canadians nor Americans: we would have only indigenous Americans (2% of the US, 5% of Canada), and the descendants of immigrants (98% of the US, 95% of Canada).
- It is not helpful in these discussions if editors use words to mean significantly different concepts. If you are talking about ancestry, then please use the word ancestry so that other editors know what you're talking about. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:56, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
- Ancestry plays the biggest role in ethnicity. One can't be as German as a native from Germany without having any German ancestry and thus should not be granted the same importance as the native Germans whose ancestors have lived in the same place for centuries. Super Ψ Dro 14:01, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Super Dromaeosaurus: Your first reply to me is full of strawman arguments. If I wanted to use the word “ancestry” then I would have done so, but no, we are discussing ethnicity. Ancestry and ethnicity are not synonymous. Do you have some reliable sources which prove that ancestry plays the “biggest role” in defining ethnicity? The rest of the statements in your latest reply are your own opinions and are not facts.--LeftiePete (talk) 18:33, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
- "Ancestry plays the biggest role in ethnicity" is an opinion. It is not an opinion shared by everyone. It is not unusual for a child whose parents come from different countries to be accepted as belonging to one of those countries ethnically. It might be true that very few people with exclusively East Asian or African ancestry would be accepted as members of that social group, but that doesn't mean that French families from Strassbourg, or Austrian families from Vienna, or Polish families from Szczecin could never become accepted as being ethnic Germans despite technically having non-German ancestry.
- Some years ago, I met a man whose grandparents are from four different countries (two in Europe, two in Asia), who was born and raised in a fifth country (in Africa), and who now lives in a sixth country (in the Americas). Despite all of this, his ethnicity is: just Indian. His ancestry is three-quarters non-Indian, but ancestry is not actually the biggest factor. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:32, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Super Dromaeosaurus: Your first reply to me is full of strawman arguments. If I wanted to use the word “ancestry” then I would have done so, but no, we are discussing ethnicity. Ancestry and ethnicity are not synonymous. Do you have some reliable sources which prove that ancestry plays the “biggest role” in defining ethnicity? The rest of the statements in your latest reply are your own opinions and are not facts.--LeftiePete (talk) 18:33, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
- Ancestry plays the biggest role in ethnicity. One can't be as German as a native from Germany without having any German ancestry and thus should not be granted the same importance as the native Germans whose ancestors have lived in the same place for centuries. Super Ψ Dro 14:01, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
- @WhatamIdoing: Both races and ethnic groups are social constructs. I mean, even today, some people associate certain physical characteristics with Jewish people, Chinese people, Indian people, Irish people, etc, which are what have been determined by different societies over time. Although scientific racism is still advocated by some people (typically those who hold far-right political views), it has been debunked for a long time. In fact, science tells us that 94% of physical variation happens between people of the same ‘race’.--LeftiePete (talk) 19:10, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
- Denying the existance of the German ethnicity is a laughable joke and I can't believe it's still being pushed this hard. As a matter of fact, yes, an ethnic German baby raised by French-speaking Canadians in Mexico is still an ethnic German. What will be next, the German language isn't real either? Super Ψ Dro 14:35, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
Germanness and Jews according to secondary sources
I took a short look at some texts I found at JSTOR searching for "Defining Germanness". Among others, I found Lene Rock (2019). "CONSTITUTIVE OUTSIDERS". As German as Kafka: Identity and Singularity in German Literature around 1900 and 2000. Leuven (Belgium): Leuven University Press. pp. 31–66. JSTOR j.ctvss3xg0.5.. That text looks at the debates in Germany during the last century about who can be called a German and who not. Different ideas like "Volksnation" (the nation seen as a people) or "Kulturnation" (the nation seen as bound together by a common culture) have been discussed in Germany. This whole discussion should be included in the section "Identity", but it is strangely absent from there.
In the early 20th century, there was a special focus on whether Jews can be included in the concept of Germanness. I hope that I am mistaken, but I fear that the current lede with its stress on "common German ancestry, culture, and history" corresponds more or less to the "völkisch" (literally "people-ish", i.e. national, ethnic) definition used to exclude Jews which led to the Nuremberg Laws and the Holocaust. Since Jews are normally endogamous, in many cases they don't share a common ancestry with non-Jewish Germans, and to say that the murderers at Auschwitz share a common history with their victims seems to be cynical. If my interpretation of that formula is correct (I hope it isn't), it is anti-semitic and follows the worst traditions of Germany. The fact that the Holocaust is not mentioned in the article (except in the time specification "after the H.") adds to this picture of an antisemitic tendency in the article. Antisemitism and all other forms of racism are inherently incompatible with
WP, see WP:NONAZIS. --Rsk6400 (talk) 19:08, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- The question to ask is do sources define Germans just as an ethnic group or as nation of peopleS.--Moxy 🍁 03:44, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
- The only secondary sources I know of which define Germans are sources dealing with the legal definition, i.e. citizenship. The historical, sociological, and ethnological sources only report debates (normally among Germans) about defining Germanness. While historically, Germans were seen as belonging to different tribes (Stämme) like Bavarians, Swabians or Saxons, the words people (Volk) or nation (Nation) have not been used in plural to describe Germans since the Middle Ages. Tribal identities still exist, although today they are called "cultural identities". E.g. politician Cem Özdemir, of Turkish ancestry, famously self-identified as an "Anatolian Swabian". --Rsk6400 (talk) 07:54, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
- It's aswesome what you invent so far for your cause really (now creating/inventing a Jewish question...amazing...) The lead is clear about the inclusion of German citizens, in which Jews are included, as anybody else regardless of origin, religion or any other criteria.(KIENGIR (talk) 21:10, 16 December 2020 (UTC))
- By the time the völkisch movement had come to have any significance in Austria and Germany in the late 19th century and early 20th century, most of the Jews who lived in Austria and Germany were largely assimilated and considered themselves to be Germans.--LeftiePete (talk) 16:17, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
- Over the course of today I have significantly improved the Identity section with regards to how a German identity was viewed by Jews and non-Jews in Austria and Germany during the late 19th century and early 20th century.--LeftiePete (talk) 02:32, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
- These are clear improvements. Thanks and good work. --Tserton (talk) 14:02, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
- Over the course of today I have significantly improved the Identity section with regards to how a German identity was viewed by Jews and non-Jews in Austria and Germany during the late 19th century and early 20th century.--LeftiePete (talk) 02:32, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
- By the time the völkisch movement had come to have any significance in Austria and Germany in the late 19th century and early 20th century, most of the Jews who lived in Austria and Germany were largely assimilated and considered themselves to be Germans.--LeftiePete (talk) 16:17, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
- It's aswesome what you invent so far for your cause really (now creating/inventing a Jewish question...amazing...) The lead is clear about the inclusion of German citizens, in which Jews are included, as anybody else regardless of origin, religion or any other criteria.(KIENGIR (talk) 21:10, 16 December 2020 (UTC))
- The only secondary sources I know of which define Germans are sources dealing with the legal definition, i.e. citizenship. The historical, sociological, and ethnological sources only report debates (normally among Germans) about defining Germanness. While historically, Germans were seen as belonging to different tribes (Stämme) like Bavarians, Swabians or Saxons, the words people (Volk) or nation (Nation) have not been used in plural to describe Germans since the Middle Ages. Tribal identities still exist, although today they are called "cultural identities". E.g. politician Cem Özdemir, of Turkish ancestry, famously self-identified as an "Anatolian Swabian". --Rsk6400 (talk) 07:54, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
Misrepresentation of sources in line with far-right discourse
@Krakkos: I compared some of your edits which seemed strange to me with the source you quoted:
- Your edit (diff) says
The greatest challenges facing modern German society include globalization and immigration, which has eroded the German social fabric and labor market.
, sourced to Moser 2011, p.175. Moser says that "globalization and the attendant neoliberal shift in economic policies ... have eroded the social fabric and labor market arrangements established in the postwar period". Meaning, you left out the "neoliberal shift", presented immigration (which Moser mentions only afterwards) as the sole cause of the erosion and made the erosion look a little worse by changing the object from "arrangements" to "labor market". This is a typical far-right argumentation, not based on sources, but on feeling: "The immigrants are stealing our jobs". - Another quote from the same edit:
a large number of monuments being constructed in order to demonstrate German guilt.
The closest to this which can be found in the source (Moser p.174), isGermans have grappled publicly with war guilt
. The combination "German guilt" is found nowhere in the source. The wording is important because after WW II there was a heated discussion about a "German collective guilt". The connection "in order to" which you made is mentioned nowhere in the source, but is a favourite subject of the German far right, see e.g. the reference to Björn Höcke I recently came upon in "The Atlantic". BTW: That article also states that the "Neue Rechte" (German "New Right") focuses on "identity and culture", contrary to what you told me recently about far-right people focusing on a "German race".
There is much more which is dubious in your edits, such as the removal of the Jews from the history of the Middle Ages, your mentioning of the Holocaust as a result of the war (which may be an error, but it is also a connection which Hitler made), your forgetting of Heinrich Heine (a Jew until he was nearly 30 years old) when you first copied the list of German writers from Moser (you corrected it after I complained). You alleged that I am on a "campaign". Could you please comment on why you represented the sources the way I described above ? --Rsk6400 (talk) 08:06, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
Full paragraph about the The Republic of German-Austria - is it needed?
The article in the sub-section 1918-1933 currently includes the full text of the provision of The Republic of German-Austria. Is it really needed to be included in the article? This article is about Germans and the section it’s included in is about the “Identity” of Germans. The attempt in 1918 for the rump state of Austria after World War I was not because of some sort of overwhelming pan-German feeling there - it was mainly down to economics and there was even one plebiscite which advocated the annexation to Switzerland. I don’t really think it’s worth keeping all that text when that section of the article is specifically about the identity of Germans during the early 20th century. And, it seems odd to have that much information about that failed attempt for a short-lived rump state to be annexed to the Weimar Republic and only a brief mention of the actual annexation of Austria in 1938 by the Nazis and even then there is still speculation amongst historians about how popular it really was amongst the Austrian population and for what reasons. I think the identity section should be about how by 1933 the general consensus was that “Germans” was a racial concept which had been accepted because eugenics and racist concepts had been a part of German society far greater than just within the far-right fringes.--LeftiePete (talk) 09:07, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
- I’ve removed material that was already covered in the history section of the article. There was no need for the history of Germany in the mid 1800s (the unification) and after World War I (the attempt made by the rump state of Austria to join Germany) twice.--LeftiePete (talk) 10:18, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
Content forking from Culture of Germany
The culture section of this article reads more like a section on the culture of Germany rather than the culture of Germans. Indeed, large parts of the culture section is entirely forked from the Culture of Germany article. There is also plenty of unsourced material and obvious original research in the section. We should update the section with content that is actually based on sources that discuss the culture of Germans. Krakkos (talk) 13:18, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Krakkos: While you may have had good reasons to delete the old version, the new version is based on your notion that "Germans" primarily means "ethnic Germans". The smaller problem is that according to your list of writers and musicians, ethnic Germans seem to have died out about 1900. Worse still, the exclusion of Jews, Muslims and other non-Christian believers is well in line with the definitions of Germanness upheld by some far right groups (see my earlier comment citing NYT). Please remember WP:NPOV. --Rsk6400 (talk) 09:27, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Rsk6400: The new version was carefully based on what is written in reliable tertiary sources on the culture of the Germans. I'm obviously aware that Germans practice a variety of religions, but the sources only discussed the prevalence of Christianity and irreligion among Germans. Moser mentions that more than 4% of the population of Germany practice Islam, but he does not discuss how many of them that are Germans. The list of German artists and scientists is also taken from Moser. Wikipedia content must be based on reliable and relevant sources, rather than our own personal knowledge and opinions. This blanking of the Culture section is not an improvement. Krakkos (talk) 10:04, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Krakkos: Regarding "sources": Apart from the second sentence, which contains little meaningful content, I see only one source that you used. Regarding Muslims: It seems a bit strange to claim that you "carefully based" your text on the source if you ignore the Muslims mentioned there just because you don't know how many of them are Germans. Regarding Jews: You didn't explain why you didn't mention them. Regarding literature and science: You cannot justify the exclusion of all (sic !) German Nobel laureates from the list with a text written by an ethnologist who is not focused on those subjects and therefore not a prime source for them, cf. WP:RSCONTEXT. --Rsk6400 (talk) 07:39, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Rsk6400: The new version was carefully based on what is written in reliable tertiary sources on the culture of the Germans. I'm obviously aware that Germans practice a variety of religions, but the sources only discussed the prevalence of Christianity and irreligion among Germans. Moser mentions that more than 4% of the population of Germany practice Islam, but he does not discuss how many of them that are Germans. The list of German artists and scientists is also taken from Moser. Wikipedia content must be based on reliable and relevant sources, rather than our own personal knowledge and opinions. This blanking of the Culture section is not an improvement. Krakkos (talk) 10:04, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
The new lede
@Krakkos: Did you get a consensus before drastically changing the lede of the article? The lede reads in such an awkward way and quite a few people on this talk page (see above) are not too happy with the article at present. Also, the claim that “German” can mean “any of the Germanic peoples” is neither true nor what the sources state - the English people, the Swedish people, etc, have never been referred to as “Germans”.--LeftiePete (talk) 00:32, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
- I have reverted the lede of the article to what reached a consensus (see above):
The Germans (German: Deutsche) are a Germanic ethnic group native to Central Europe who share a common German ancestry, culture, and history. German is the shared mother tongue of a substantial majority of the ethnic Germans. Any person who has German citizenship may also be regarded as a German, including the immigrant population of Germany.
- I don’t believe that anyone should be making any drastic edits to the lede of the article without reaching a consensus on this talk page. Especially when adding erroneous claims like “Germans” refers to “any of the Germanic peoples” which is just plain wrong and even historically was not the case. It’s true that historically some other German-speaking peoples e.g. considered themselves to be Germans, but the English people, the Swedish people, and other Germanic peoples were never referred to as “Germans”. There is a difference between “German” and “Germanic”.--LeftiePete (talk) 00:38, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
- There’s also no need for any of us to get our knickers in a twist over the validity of ethnicity because even though modern scholarship regards races and ethnic groups to be social constructs, an ethnic group still ‘exists’ in the sense of how a people in a specific society collectively view each other. The lede of the article that recently reached a general consensus (see above) includes the Germans being a Germanic ethnic group and that German citizens of different backgrounds are also considered to be Germans.
- Also, for the last time, none of should be wasting our time reading too much into what some extreme German nationalists in the late 19th century and early 20th century thought constituted being a German meant; their views were irrelevant then and now. As I pointed out before, the most vile racists who ruled Germany between 1933-1945 and liked to preach a great deal about the alleged racial differences between “Germans” and “Jews” had to rely solely on the religious background of an individual to determine whether he/she was a “German” or a “Jew”! As soon as one advocates ethnic nationalism to determine whether someone belongs to an ethnic group or not then he/she starts to muddy the waters and it’s a slippery slope from there.--LeftiePete (talk) 00:56, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
- I have made one slight change to the lede and changed “immigration population of Germany” to “citizens of immigrant backgrounds”. My reason is that the former treated German citizens with immigrant backgrounds as a separate population to other German citizens and the latter reads like German citizens whether of a German background or an immigrant background are Germans and belong to the same population.--LeftiePete (talk) 01:08, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
- I consider the amount of pages that are suggested before the lead starts excessive. Is there a way to make that part shorter so it occupies one or two lines instead of three? By the way, as I did before, I have replaced "substantial majority of the ethnic Germans" by "vast majority of the ethnic Germans". Super Ψ Dro 01:09, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
- LeftiePete, "citizens of immigrant backgrounds" exclude people such as illegal immigrants or people from other countries who have not renounced to their native country's citizenship, which I think it's against the aim of several of the people debating the lead. I think "immigration population of Germany", perhaps we could add some note like "regardless of their ethnic background" as it was suggested earlier. Super Ψ Dro 01:13, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
- I consider the amount of pages that are suggested before the lead starts excessive. Is there a way to make that part shorter so it occupies one or two lines instead of three? By the way, as I did before, I have replaced "substantial majority of the ethnic Germans" by "vast majority of the ethnic Germans". Super Ψ Dro 01:09, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
- I have made one slight change to the lede and changed “immigration population of Germany” to “citizens of immigrant backgrounds”. My reason is that the former treated German citizens with immigrant backgrounds as a separate population to other German citizens and the latter reads like German citizens whether of a German background or an immigrant background are Germans and belong to the same population.--LeftiePete (talk) 01:08, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
- @LeftiePete: I basically agree with your interpretation of the consensus as Germans "being a Germanic ethnic group and that German citizens of different backgrounds are also considered to be Germans." But I would say that the consensus (such as it is) was to give the ethnic and non-ethnic usage at least equal weight in the lead - to me, this would involve the first sentence stating that the concept is complex, or that it is used in multiple overlapping ways. And again: I don't think anyone is trying to pretend ethnic groups don't "exist." --Tserton (talk) 04:45, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
- These changes strike me as awkward attempts to mollify one side of the debate without actually addressing it head-on. I can't speak for others, but I do not think any of these changes do enough to give due weight to the German nationality and German ethnicity. I'm starting to think we should look at other venues of conflict resolution.--Tserton (talk) 04:36, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
- There is universal agreement among participants in this discussion that German ethnicity and German citizenship are distinct topics. However, the tertiary sources on Germans presented so far, particularly the most detailed, recent and reliable ones, clearly suggest that the primary topic for the term "Germans" is the ethnic group. With the possible exception of Waldman & Mason (2005), none of the tertiary sources cover "Germans" in the sense of citizenship. If the topic of this article is to be switched into being about German citizenship, it would be tantamount to an erasure of Wikipedia's coverage on German ethnicity. That would do more harm than good. This debate about the conflation of ethnicity and citizenship is not confined to the Germans, but is also relevant for other ethnic groups with nation states throughout the world, such as Hungarians, Romanians, Turkish people, Armenians, Albanians, Greeks and Vietnamese people. If this issue is to be taken to conflict resolution, it should be discussed in a broad sense involving our articles on all such ethnic groups, rather than just our article on Germans. Krakkos (talk) 12:56, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
- Krakkos, I agree with you, and I as well agree Super put back the regions with significant populations and also well eventually the geographic distribution section was restored. I wanted to say, did not want to intervene until the being under construction tag was active. I think the aforementioned is useful, informative and as well present in other akin pages.(KIENGIR (talk) 20:17, 23 December 2020 (UTC))
- Krakkos, I don't understand how you can talk of a
universal agreement among participants in this discussion that German ethnicity and German citizenship are distinct topics
. The words "interrelated" or "overlapping" were used in this discussion. We also discussed the ideas of a "broad concept" and the like. I already pointed out that distinguishing between "passport Germans" and "bio-Germans" is confined to the far right end of the societal and political debate in Germany. - Mathglot (in his humorous comment introducing "astrobiogenesis") and I already pointed out that the sources you use to support your claim that Germans primarily are an ethnic group are irrelevant for that question. I hope you noted that Moser's statement
Today, the German language is the primary though not exclusive criterion of German identity.
cannot be reconciled with that claim of yours. Since Germany has received many immigrants over the past 60 years (and profited by them), you cannot compare the situation of Germans to Hungarians or any of the other peoples you mentioned. --Rsk6400 (talk) 08:26, 24 December 2020 (UTC)- Also among the nations and their states listed received/faced over the last millenium many settlers, immigrants, foreigners, especially Hungarians, similarly the regions comprise Romania or the territory of present Turkey were the subject of such, even affected by large border rearrangements and changes over time (with milestones greater significance and outcomes then the 60 years you refer). Despite ethnical interpretation were not shaded, on the contrary.(KIENGIR (talk) 16:18, 25 December 2020 (UTC))
- @Rsk6400:, your campaign to cleanse Wikipedia of racism is very impressive. I fully understand the desirability of abolishing the concept of a German ethnic group. The current approach of this article is the opposite of the far-right agenda. The German far-right describes Germans as a race allegedly rooted in biology. This article describes Germans primarily as an ethnic group rooted mainly in language. However, the views of the far-right are quite irrelevant. It is the views expressed by experts in reliable sources that are relevant. Our task on Wikipedia is chiefly to build an encyclopedia. Abolishing German ethnicity may make Germany a more harmonious society, but erasing Wikipedia's coverage on the German ethnicity will certainly make Wikipedia less informative. The German ethnicity has, for better or for worse, played a significant role in European history. If Wikipedia is to cover European history appropriately, articles on Germans, Hungarians, Romanians and other ethnic groups of Europe are necessary. The fact that Germany has received more immigrants than Hungary during the last 60 years does not make German ethnicity less notable than Hungarian ethnicity. On Wikipedia, when a term has multiple meanings, our policies recommend that the article primarily covers the meaning which has the most notable coverage and the broadest meaning. An examination of encyclopedic entries on "Germans" clearly suggest that German ethnicity has greater encyclopedic notability for the term "Germans" than German citizenship has. In his article on the Germans, professor Johannes Moser estimates that there may be as many as 150 million people of German ethnicity today. The number of people with German citizenship today is less than half of that. German citizenship is therefore a narrower topic with less encyclopedic notability than the ethnic understanding of the term "Germans". In addition, German citizenship is already covered at German nationality law, while the people of Germany are covered at Demographics of Germany. Duplicating the scope of those article in this one, and thereby erase Wikipedia's coverage of German ethnicity, would not be an improvement. Krakkos (talk) 17:20, 25 December 2020 (UTC)
- There is universal agreement among participants in this discussion that German ethnicity and German citizenship are distinct topics. However, the tertiary sources on Germans presented so far, particularly the most detailed, recent and reliable ones, clearly suggest that the primary topic for the term "Germans" is the ethnic group. With the possible exception of Waldman & Mason (2005), none of the tertiary sources cover "Germans" in the sense of citizenship. If the topic of this article is to be switched into being about German citizenship, it would be tantamount to an erasure of Wikipedia's coverage on German ethnicity. That would do more harm than good. This debate about the conflation of ethnicity and citizenship is not confined to the Germans, but is also relevant for other ethnic groups with nation states throughout the world, such as Hungarians, Romanians, Turkish people, Armenians, Albanians, Greeks and Vietnamese people. If this issue is to be taken to conflict resolution, it should be discussed in a broad sense involving our articles on all such ethnic groups, rather than just our article on Germans. Krakkos (talk) 12:56, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
- Our task is to report on the factual world, not on an idealized one. If individuals obviously refer to ethnicity rather than citizenship by saying things like "I am ¼ German; my granny was from Hamburg" we simply cannot ignore them. What you call "the desirability of abolishing the concept of a German ethnic group" seems like an effort to abolish people's identity. Let's just present the facts and not suppress any of them. Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 18:15, 25 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Krakkos: I don't think that my personal editing record or my motivations should be discussed here. But since you started that discussion, be comforted: I'm not conducting a "campaign" for anything and I don't edit according to the "desirability" of anything. You have already been told that nobody wants to remove the ethnic definition, let alone "abolish" German ethnicity or identity. --Rsk6400 (talk) 08:08, 26 December 2020 (UTC)
User:LeftiePete
Please note that User:leftiePete has been blocked as a sock of long-time puppet master User:English Patriot Man, [1] who is de facto banned from English Wikipedia per WP:3X. As a sock, they are not allowed to edit here, or to participate in discussions. Their contributions to discussions above may be ignored or struck-through, and their article edits reverted on sight. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:17, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks for the heads up. Per WP:EVASION, i have trimmed the section on German identity, which was largely written by the sock. It went far of topic with its details about Lothrop Stoddard, the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and other stuff of trivial relevance to the Germans. Some of the more relevant material could perhaps be reinserted if reliably sourced. Krakkos (talk) 09:49, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
Map of the German Confederation
@KIENGIR: Since the human eye is attracted by colours, the viewer might understand that the coloured portions of the map show the extent of the German Confederation. That's why I added the second sentence. Prussia and Austria were the only member states having territory outside the Confederation. On the other hand, your expression "territories and crownlands" is confusing, since the normal meaning of "crown land" in English is different from the special meaning it had in the Austrian Empire. Also, your expression includes all territories outside the G.C., and the readers will ask themselves why it is worth noting that Tunisia was outside. --Rsk6400 (talk) 07:40, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
- No consensus for your additional wordage, since it is erroneus, and I uphold what I stated in the edit log. Even the original text was sufficient (however that has as well some inaccuracy, but even the whole map may be removed because it's a quite recent edit). No, Austrian territories outside the confederation were the lower part of Istria, the territories westwards and the Kingdom of Galicia and Lodomeria, etc. Btw., my expression is perfectly correct, since the word crownland is used widepread on the related articles as a standard (literal translation of the original German), there is not any confusion about this (my expression never referred Tunisia, it's evident by the red boundary and colors what did it mean.(KIENGIR (talk) 07:49, 29 December 2020 (UTC))
- I didn't say that "crownlands" was wrong. It is just confusing for a reader who might not be well acquainted with Austrian history. My concern was to help a casual reader not wanting to spend a lot of time understanding the map when just looking for information on Germans. I guess with "erroneus" you mean that I didn't mention Hungary ? As far as I know, the official name of the state before 1867 was "Austrian Empire", so I think the expression is correct. --Rsk6400 (talk) 08:53, 29 December 2020 (UTC)