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* '''One article''', but '''rewrite the lead'''{{snd}}At this point, the [[#Survey of tertiary literature]] below has a dozen sources, of which more do not mention ethnicity (nine) than do (three). Numbers 3, 4 and 7 do mention ethnicity; 1, 2, 3, mention linguistic grouping, #6 mentions history & culture, #10 mentions citizenship. Several have no entry for Germans (5, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12) although most of those do have entries for other ethnic groups (like [[Finns]], or [[Basques]]), which makes me think that those sources do have articles on ethinc groups, and consider "Germans" not to be one of those. I was surprised at this result, but it leads me to believe the '''lead should be rewritten''', with a non-ethnic definition appearing first, per majority view as described at [[WP:DUEWEIGHT]], and a secondary definition, perhaps in a second paragraph, which mentions ethnic definitions. [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 07:13, 5 December 2020 (UTC) |
* '''One article''', but '''rewrite the lead'''{{snd}}At this point, the [[#Survey of tertiary literature]] below has a dozen sources, of which more do not mention ethnicity (nine) than do (three). Numbers 3, 4 and 7 do mention ethnicity; 1, 2, 3, mention linguistic grouping, #6 mentions history & culture, #10 mentions citizenship. Several have no entry for Germans (5, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12) although most of those do have entries for other ethnic groups (like [[Finns]], or [[Basques]]), which makes me think that those sources do have articles on ethinc groups, and consider "Germans" not to be one of those. I was surprised at this result, but it leads me to believe the '''lead should be rewritten''', with a non-ethnic definition appearing first, per majority view as described at [[WP:DUEWEIGHT]], and a secondary definition, perhaps in a second paragraph, which mentions ethnic definitions. [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 07:13, 5 December 2020 (UTC) |
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* '''Leave as is''', '''One article''', the lead has been '''already rewritten''' which is already an improvement to the previous phase, and reflecting appropriately the triple ethnic, citizen and ancestry affiliations, the wisest and sane order. Just because there are some editors who try to reinterpret some terminologies because some inhabitants or subject may feel hurt by a desingation/interpretation is very unprofessional, btw. the discussions may be read as well in the above section, or the WikiPorject discussion the nominator linked.([[User:KIENGIR|KIENGIR]] ([[User talk:KIENGIR|talk]]) 10:24, 5 December 2020 (UTC)) |
* '''Leave as is''', '''One article''', the lead has been '''already rewritten''' which is already an improvement to the previous phase, and reflecting appropriately the triple ethnic, citizen and ancestry affiliations, the wisest and sane order. Just because there are some editors who try to reinterpret some terminologies because some inhabitants or subject may feel hurt by a desingation/interpretation is very unprofessional, btw. the discussions may be read as well in the above section, or the WikiPorject discussion the nominator linked.([[User:KIENGIR|KIENGIR]] ([[User talk:KIENGIR|talk]]) 10:24, 5 December 2020 (UTC)) |
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* '''One article''', but '''rewrite the lead'''. To the arguments given by Mathglot above, I'd like to add the dictionary definitions by Merriam-Webster<ref name="Merriam-Webster">{{cite web|url=https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/German|title=Definition of German by Merriam-Webster|access-date=2020-11-25}}</ref> and OED ("a native or inhabitant of Germany, or a person of German descent"). {{Ping|KIENGIR}} Why do you think that the current order is the "wisest and sane" order ? --[[User:Rsk6400|Rsk6400]] ([[User talk:Rsk6400|talk]]) 10:34, 5 December 2020 (UTC) |
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=== Discussion === |
=== Discussion === |
Revision as of 10:34, 5 December 2020
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Incoherent usage of the term 'Germans' and anecdotal statements with questionable sources of the last segment "Reunification till present"
Hello everyone,
As a German I'm truy irritated by the seemingly interchangeable usage of "Germans" and "Ethnical Germans". My fellow citizen with migrational background are as much Germans as I am. They have been raised here and take as much part in German culture as I do - which is not much to speak of, we eat Italian food, watch American movies, use french idioms. Jokes aside, this article insinuates something else. Under the law everyone with a German citizenship is German and luckily that seems to have arrived in a lot of minds already. Specifically the minds of those who don't advocate for racist euphemisms such as 'Ethnopluralism'.
The last part "Reunification till present" caught my eye. There are some statements with lacking and/or questionable sources.
1. "Germans become more patriotic"
I obviously can't speak for all Germans but this link:
is laughable. The author writes something along the lines of 'A genocide might very well happen again' and 'A war between muslims and europeans (?)'. Anyone with the slighest grasp of history will know the first statement is straight up making it sound like there has not been much Erinnerungskultur (Culture of remembering) while also downplaying the singularity of the Shoah. Which is wrong.The second statement is alarmistic aswell. Even if the author was better at analyzing - without having a representative study that shows it I doubt patriotism has increased. Reactionary, nationalist forces obviously have (AfD) but ressentiments of those people have always been there. Aside from that throughout liberal and conservatives, urban and rural parts of society in Germany still rules a certain modesty and reservation when it comes to patriotism. Atleast there is much indifference when it comes to nationality.
2. "Study shows x% pupils would choose Germany as their country of living and x% feel patriotism"
Since I'm on my phone I can't citate properly but here is the study that would make the whole patriotism statement less anecdotal. However the problem is: German Citizen have been asked. Not necessarily ethnical Germans. So I ask myself what does this have to do with ethnical Germans?
3."The newer generation sees WW2 as a distant memory"
I would be part of that. I'm 23 and from Hamburg. I know a lot of young people. Nobody of us sees WW2 as a memory. How would we? We weren't alive. But luckily school has taught us one fucking thing - excuse my language - we must not forget. Now I really might not represent all young Germans but with the way how important teaching about the NS-Time is in this country I would argue 1) No one logically can see WW2 as a distant memory who hasn't lived back then and 2) We do remember why fascism and especially antisemitism has to be opposed.
A study that underlines my previous statement related to German identity can be found here aswell as in the German Wiki:
According to that study a significantly large amount of Germans think being able to speak German fluently qualifies one to be German. Which makes sense. We've had much immmigration for over 50 years now and ancestry is rather irrelevant.
In Jan Böhmermanns words: we are proud of not being proud.
...thanks for coming to my TED Talk. You might wanna check up on the mixing of the terms 'Germans' as 'German Citizen' (who can be of vietnamese, turkish, polish etc. ancestry) and 'Germans' as 'Ethnical Germans' (apparently not only defined by culture but also by ancestry) aswell as that highly questionable link that is used as source.
- I fully agree with the bit about broadening the scope of the article, especially the lead and the introduction, to additionally (but obviously not exclusively) cover "people living in Germany" or at least "German citizens." But this is, as I see it, a larger problem of all articles referring to European ethnic groups (e.g. French people, Dutch people). --Tserton (talk) 05:05, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
- There is no problem, never mind a "larger problem" because the article deals specifically with Germans as an ethnic group, just like every other article for every other ethnic group. In the case of "Germans" being used in a wider context of meaning people of different ethnic backgrounds who have German citizenship, see the Germans#Society section and more specifically the Demographics of Germany article.--LeftiePete (talk) 10:48, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
- There is. This article is called "Germans", not "Germans (ethnic group)". The equation of Germans with the ethnic group may have been acceptable some 40 years ago, today it is no longer acceptable in Germany. In Germany today, the normal use in the media is that "a German" is a synonym of "a German citizen", unless it is clear from the context that they are talking about a member of the ethnic group. Oxford Dictionary of English has "a native or inhabitant of Germany, or a person of German descent". The corresponding article in the German WP, de:Deutsche, wisely starts with the sentence, "The ethnonym German is used in a variety of ways." Then follow the definitions by ethnicity and by citizenship. --Rsk6400 (talk) 20:17, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
- I don't think it is justified to equate the English term Germans with the German Deutsche. Note that the formerly frequent term for ethnic Germans, Volksdeutsche, has almost completely fallen out of use, and that many European ethnic Germans have a hard time accepting that the 40+ million Americans who identify as ethnic Germans but don't speak German are Deutsche in any sense. The terms obviously don't match. Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 20:58, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
- Well, the definition of Deutsche by the German WP and the definition of German(s) by ODE match. Both define the term as a nationality and as an ethnicity. --Rsk6400 (talk) 07:17, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
- @Rsk6400: Why-on-earth would there need to be "(ethnic group)" as part of the title when the term "Germans" is self-explanatory? Huh? I have no idea why you think anything has changed in forty years when the consensus still asks the citizens of Germany to list their ethnicity and "German" is one of those ethnic groups. See Demographics_of_Germany#Ethnic_minorities_and_migrant_background_(Migrationshintergrund). Do you propose for Wikipedia to add "ethnic group" to the Zhuang people, Hui people, Manchu people, Uyghurs, etc?
- The German Wikipedia's "German" disambiguation states:
- "Deutsche (Begriffsklärung)
- Zur Navigation springenZur Suche springen
- Deutsche steht für:
- Personen mit deutscher Staatsangehörigkeit (Deutsche im Sinne des Grundgesetzes), siehe deutsche Staatsangehörigkeit
- Deutsche, Personen mit deutscher Herkunft im ethnischen, sprachlichen oder kulturellen Sinn"
- The only real differences between the English article and the German article is that the latter article has a section about the assimilation hypothesis about whether or not recent migrants can be assimilated into the German nation and be considered Germans compared to those who are by birth (descent). Do you wish for the lede to state that the term "German" can mean different things or are you wanting some sort of exclusive definitions "ethnic group" and "citizens"?--LeftiePete (talk) 14:49, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
- @LiliCharlie: The reason "Volksdeutsche" has fallen out of use is because that is a Nazi term. The term Deutsche historically referred to people of German descent and then after the German Empire was founded there were terms such as Reichsdeutsche ("Germans of the Reich), but Germans such as the Austrians who were not German citizens were still considered to be and thought of themselves as Germans. Of course the definition of words can change over time so for example the vast majority of Austrians even though they are ethnic Germans do not consider themselves to be Germans and that separate national identity took quite a few decades to become fully established. But, whether a recent migrant considers himself/herself to be German does not change the fact that there is a very clear difference between a German citizen and Germans as an ethnic group. There are many cases of ethnic groups living in countries and never assimilating and still identifying as their ethnic group e.g. many Jews and Gypsies have lived in many European countries for a very long time and still consider themselves to be Jews and Gypsies. Self-identification goes a long way when it comes to the existence and definition of an ethnic group.--LeftiePete (talk) 14:49, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
- Well, the definition of Deutsche by the German WP and the definition of German(s) by ODE match. Both define the term as a nationality and as an ethnicity. --Rsk6400 (talk) 07:17, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
- I don't think it is justified to equate the English term Germans with the German Deutsche. Note that the formerly frequent term for ethnic Germans, Volksdeutsche, has almost completely fallen out of use, and that many European ethnic Germans have a hard time accepting that the 40+ million Americans who identify as ethnic Germans but don't speak German are Deutsche in any sense. The terms obviously don't match. Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 20:58, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
- There is. This article is called "Germans", not "Germans (ethnic group)". The equation of Germans with the ethnic group may have been acceptable some 40 years ago, today it is no longer acceptable in Germany. In Germany today, the normal use in the media is that "a German" is a synonym of "a German citizen", unless it is clear from the context that they are talking about a member of the ethnic group. Oxford Dictionary of English has "a native or inhabitant of Germany, or a person of German descent". The corresponding article in the German WP, de:Deutsche, wisely starts with the sentence, "The ethnonym German is used in a variety of ways." Then follow the definitions by ethnicity and by citizenship. --Rsk6400 (talk) 20:17, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
- There is no problem, never mind a "larger problem" because the article deals specifically with Germans as an ethnic group, just like every other article for every other ethnic group. In the case of "Germans" being used in a wider context of meaning people of different ethnic backgrounds who have German citizenship, see the Germans#Society section and more specifically the Demographics of Germany article.--LeftiePete (talk) 10:48, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
- I don't disagree, but all that requires reliable sources. Do you know Georg Hansen Die Ethnisierung des deutschen Staatsbürgerrechts und seine Tauglichkeit in der EU who cites many, mostly historical, laws that define and/or refer to ethnic Germanhood? Unlike the US and many other parts of the English-speaking world, Germany has a legal tradition of not allowing self-identification to be the main or even the only criterion for "ethnic membership." Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 15:45, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
- Anyone interested in the debate about whether an 'ethnic group' is fixed or arbitary should read Benedict Anderson's Imagined Communities: Reflections on the Origin and Spread of Nationalism. Even Max Weber recognised that ethnic groups were social constructs and who belonged to a specific 'community' was subjective. Nevertheless, people still do and will continue to believe in such arbitrary constructs and ideas. Even the most racist and die-hard Nazis could not define "German" in a racial sense.--LeftiePete (talk) 15:00, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
- @LeftiePete: I did not propose that "(ethnic group)" should be added to the title of "Germans". It is not true that the
consensus still asks the citizens of Germany to list their ethnicity and "German" is one of those ethnic groups
, neither does the census. The article you refered to is correct, but your understanding of it is not. I think the German disambiguation page is pretty irrelevant here, especially its navigational elements like "Zur Navigation springen" (Click here for the navigation bar). --Rsk6400 (talk) 18:05, 14 November 2020 (UTC) - This issue is overreacted. Of course it may refer primarily the ethnic group, but also as a nationality/citizens. Could not be otherwise, since just like that German ethnics and citizens may be summarized around the world.(KIENGIR (talk) 19:33, 14 November 2020 (UTC))
- @LeftiePete: I did not propose that "(ethnic group)" should be added to the title of "Germans". It is not true that the
- "German ethnics and citizens may be summarized around the world" is simply not true. In Chinese 德国人 Déguórén can only refer to citizens (国 means country), and 德意志裔人 Déyìzhìyìrén only to ethnics (裔 means descendent). There is no word 德人 or 德意志人 that covers them both, and Chinese isn't exactly a minor language. Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 19:49, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
- @Rsk6400: Can you provide some sources that prove that the consensus in Germany does not ask people to list their ethnicity? If my understanding of that graph is not correct, how did the consensus manage to work out the people of an ethnic German background and people of different ethnic backgrounds? Hmmm... Again, why-on-earth should "(ethnic group)" be added as part of the title when Wikipedia has hundreds of different articles about the ethnic groups of different countries?--LeftiePete (talk) 19:57, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
- @KIENGIR: Exactly! Perhaps there could be one or two sentences mentioning that "Germans" can mean different things in the lede of the article, but anything else is just absurd.--LeftiePete (talk) 20:00, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
- @Rsk6400: Can you provide some sources that prove that the consensus in Germany does not ask people to list their ethnicity? If my understanding of that graph is not correct, how did the consensus manage to work out the people of an ethnic German background and people of different ethnic backgrounds? Hmmm... Again, why-on-earth should "(ethnic group)" be added as part of the title when Wikipedia has hundreds of different articles about the ethnic groups of different countries?--LeftiePete (talk) 19:57, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
- "German ethnics and citizens may be summarized around the world" is simply not true. In Chinese 德国人 Déguórén can only refer to citizens (国 means country), and 德意志裔人 Déyìzhìyìrén only to ethnics (裔 means descendent). There is no word 德人 or 德意志人 that covers them both, and Chinese isn't exactly a minor language. Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 19:49, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
Problems of this article discussed at WikiProject Ethnic Groups
At Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ethnic groups#"Germans", "French people" etc - ethnicity vs nationality some problems of this article and other similar articles are being discussed. --Rsk6400 (talk) 19:54, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
Definition in the lede
I just made a bold edit adding German citizens to the definition in the lede. Following the discussions here and at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ethnic groups#"Germans", "French people" etc - ethnicity vs nationality I hope that this may be acceptable to all sides, although I'm sure that it is not perfect. --Rsk6400 (talk) 14:28, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
- Well done - it's inclusive, balanced and accurate. Pursuant to your edit I'm going to update the number of Germans in Germany in the infobox from 62 million to 82 million. --Tserton (talk) 05:58, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
- Update: 72.7 million as per https://www.destatis.de/EN/Themes/Society-Environment/Population/Current-Population/Tables/liste-current-population.html. --Tserton (talk) 06:07, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
- Well, the addition have been corroborated appropriately, denoting as well an ethnic group cannot be ignored.(KIENGIR (talk) 02:35, 21 November 2020 (UTC))
- I think the idea of an ethnic group is already contained in the words "ethnic Germans", since a plural noun normally indicates a group. Your sentence has at least two problems: "Germans ... denote" is a very strange combination of subject and verb. Also, the ethnic definition is contained twice. If you need the group to be mentioned, we can discuss something like
Germans (German: Deutsche) are the people who are identified with Germany. The term may be used as a synonym for the citizens of Germany or may denote an ethnic group native to Central Europe, sharing a common ...
--Rsk6400 (talk) 07:44, 21 November 2020 (UTC) - Your short description was
People of German ethnicity, ancestry and citizenship
: Do I have to have all three qualities to be called a German ? --Rsk6400 (talk) 07:49, 21 November 2020 (UTC)- It is nominally an ethnic group, but also extended to German citizens and descendants, which your solution conceals. We may change the word denote, on the other hand people who are identified with Germany sound very strange, it's quite an unprecendented expression. I'll try to formulate it more then. No the shortdesc is in evident or relation.(KIENGIR (talk) 08:51, 21 November 2020 (UTC))
- I think the idea of an ethnic group is already contained in the words "ethnic Germans", since a plural noun normally indicates a group. Your sentence has at least two problems: "Germans ... denote" is a very strange combination of subject and verb. Also, the ethnic definition is contained twice. If you need the group to be mentioned, we can discuss something like
- Well, the addition have been corroborated appropriately, denoting as well an ethnic group cannot be ignored.(KIENGIR (talk) 02:35, 21 November 2020 (UTC))
Rfc for due weight regarding the ethnic vs. nationality meaning of "Germans"
How should the ethnicity and nationality dimensions of the term Germans be weighted on Wikipedia?
- Create two separate pages for Germans and Ethnic Germans, perhaps with a disambiguation page linking to both
- Rewrite the article as a broad concept article
- Tweak the lead of Germans to mention the overlapping but distinct usages (e.g. as in this edit)
- Leave the article as is
--Tserton (talk) 00:26, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
Note: The bulk of the discussion on this topic occurred on WikiProject Ethnic groups, but I'm posting the Rfc on Talk:Germans as it directly concerns that article. --Tserton (talk) 00:27, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
Survey
- Leave as is I think "German" certainly is an ethnic group, Germans have existed much longer than Germany. It does also mention that it can also be used to describe anyone with a german citizenship. That is certainly important to mention. Perfectly fine as is in my book. Jort93 (talk) 01:33, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
- One article leave article broad in nature. Ethnic, national, dispora, historical.--Moxy 🍁 02:38, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
- One article, but rewrite the lead – At this point, the #Survey of tertiary literature below has a dozen sources, of which more do not mention ethnicity (nine) than do (three). Numbers 3, 4 and 7 do mention ethnicity; 1, 2, 3, mention linguistic grouping, #6 mentions history & culture, #10 mentions citizenship. Several have no entry for Germans (5, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12) although most of those do have entries for other ethnic groups (like Finns, or Basques), which makes me think that those sources do have articles on ethinc groups, and consider "Germans" not to be one of those. I was surprised at this result, but it leads me to believe the lead should be rewritten, with a non-ethnic definition appearing first, per majority view as described at WP:DUEWEIGHT, and a secondary definition, perhaps in a second paragraph, which mentions ethnic definitions. Mathglot (talk) 07:13, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
- Leave as is, One article, the lead has been already rewritten which is already an improvement to the previous phase, and reflecting appropriately the triple ethnic, citizen and ancestry affiliations, the wisest and sane order. Just because there are some editors who try to reinterpret some terminologies because some inhabitants or subject may feel hurt by a desingation/interpretation is very unprofessional, btw. the discussions may be read as well in the above section, or the WikiPorject discussion the nominator linked.(KIENGIR (talk) 10:24, 5 December 2020 (UTC))
- One article, but rewrite the lead. To the arguments given by Mathglot above, I'd like to add the dictionary definitions by Merriam-Webster[1] and OED ("a native or inhabitant of Germany, or a person of German descent"). @KIENGIR: Why do you think that the current order is the "wisest and sane" order ? --Rsk6400 (talk) 10:34, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
References
- ^ "Definition of German by Merriam-Webster". Retrieved 2020-11-25.
Discussion
Survey of tertiary literature
Reliable tertiary sources, such as published encyclopedias, are a good proxy for what the majority of reliable, independent, secondary sources say, and and may be helpful in evaluating due weight. We can survey tertiary sources, which are more limited in number, to estimate what secondary sources are saying. Such a survey can give us some hard data which will increase our confidence that we are reading the secondary sources correctly, and in the right proportion, which can help resolve the Rfc question.
Here is a summary of what some tertiary sources say about this issue, discovered during the related discussion at WT:ETHNIC:
- Encyclopedia Britannica: no entry for "Germans." Edit (02:43, 30 November 2020 (UTC)): Encyclopedia Britannica does discuss Germans under the entry "Germany" and describes the term extremely broadly: "The German-speaking peoples—which include the inhabitants of Germany as well as those of Austria, Liechtenstein, and the major parts of Switzerland and Luxembourg; small portions of France, Belgium, the Netherlands, and Italy; and the remnants of German communities in eastern Europe—are extremely heterogeneous in their ethnic origins, dialectal divisions, and political and cultural heritage....The Germans, in their various changes of territory, inevitably intermingled with other peoples." [1]
- Native Peoples of the World: An Encyclopedia of Groups, Cultures and Contemporary Issues (2015): Doesn't explicitly define Germans, but uses the word to denote both ethnic Germans and German citizens. Emphasizes linguistic ties for identity. "Germans are a Germanic (or Teutonic) people that are indigenous to Central Europe. Of the 100 million German speakers worldwide, about three-quarters (76 million) live in Germany....after centuries of political fragmentation, a sense of national unity as Germans began to evolve in the eighteenth century, and the German language became a key marker of national identity."[2] Thanks to Krakkos for finding.
- Ethnic Groups of Europe: An Encyclopedia (2011): Doesn't explicitly define Germans, but uses the word to denote both ethnic Germans and German citizens. Emphasizes linguistic ties for identity. "The Germans live in Central Europe, mostly in Germany (82.2 million inhabitants, of whom 75 million speak German), and in many countries around the world, both as German expatriates and as citizens of other countries who identify culturally as German and speak the language....German identity developed through a long historical process that led to the definition of the German nation as both a community of descent (Volksgemeinschaft) and shared culture and experience. Today, the German language is the primary though not exclusive criterion of German identity." [3] Thanks to Krakkos for finding.
- One Europe, Many Nations: A Historical Dictionary of European National Groups (2000): Describes Germans mostly as an ethnic group, but also evidently includes recent immigrants in the population figure: "The Germans are an ancient ethnic group, the basic stock in the composition of the peoples of Germany, Scandinavia....approximately 83,885,000 Germans [live] in Europe, the majority in Germany, but with substantial German populations in Belgium, Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland, Slovenia and Romania." [4] Thanks to Krakkos for finding. --Tserton (talk) 01:55, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
- Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Encyclopedia: no entry for "Germans." (would be on p.648 if there were one) [5] Mathglot (talk) 05:34, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
- Encyclopedia of European Peoples: has an entry for Germans, but makes no mention of ethnicity, instead focusing on history and culture.[6] --Tserton (talk) 02:43, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
- Columbia Encyclopedia – Describes Germans as a "large ethnic complex of ancient Europe" and listing the modern countries of Sweden, Germany, Austria, Switzerland, the Low Countries, and England, and putting it in historical context back to pre-Christian Rome. (One-volume 'pedia, 950pp; Germans article is about two column-inches.)[7] Mathglot (talk) 05:34, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
- Encyclopédie Larousse – Nothing for Allemands (Germans), peuple allemand (German people), and so on; though it has entries for Hongrois (Hungarians), Finnois (Finns), and Basques.[8] Mathglot (talk) 07:35, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
- Gran enciclopèdia catalana – Nothing for alemanys (Germans) [search link; no article], poble alemany (German people), and so on; though it has entries for magiar (Hungarians), finès (Finns), and basc (Basques).[9] Mathglot (talk) 07:58, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
- Europa-Lexikon: Länder, Politik, Institutionen: Does not describe Germans as a people, but does list the German population of Germany as the number of people with German citizenship. [10]--Tserton (talk) 11:21, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
- Oxford World Encyclopedia: No entry for Germans; entry for "Germany" does not describe people of Germany.[11]--Tserton (talk) 00:06, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
- Europe: A Concise Encyclopedia: No entry for Germans; entry for "Germany" does not describe people of Germany.[12]--Tserton (talk) 00:22, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
Click [show] to view references for tertiary sources
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