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''Another common claim made by not only Turks, but also other peoples of the region, is that the actions of Bulgaria, Serbia, Montenegro and Greece during the First Balkan War (against Albanians and Turks, as well as other peoples of the region)and of the same list minus Bulgaria during the Second (against Bulgarians) constituted genocide, especially those by the Serbs against Albanians and Turks in Kosovo and Macedonia.'' --Glenny, Misha. "The Balkans", needs a page number as well. --[[User:Kansas Bear|Kansas Bear]] ([[User talk:Kansas Bear|talk]]) 02:15, 11 August 2010 (UTC) |
''Another common claim made by not only Turks, but also other peoples of the region, is that the actions of Bulgaria, Serbia, Montenegro and Greece during the First Balkan War (against Albanians and Turks, as well as other peoples of the region)and of the same list minus Bulgaria during the Second (against Bulgarians) constituted genocide, especially those by the Serbs against Albanians and Turks in Kosovo and Macedonia.'' --Glenny, Misha. "The Balkans", needs a page number as well. --[[User:Kansas Bear|Kansas Bear]] ([[User talk:Kansas Bear|talk]]) 02:15, 11 August 2010 (UTC) |
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:I've gotten them both now, and added more references. I would appreciate to not be yelled at, as I don't have any anti-Armenian feelings myself anyways, its just the truth that everyone ignores what happened to Ottomon Muslims in those three wars (First Balkan War, WWI, Turkish-Greek war).--[[User:Yalens|Yalens]] ([[User talk:Yalens|talk]]) 17:12, 11 August 2010 (UTC) |
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== Tibet == |
== Tibet == |
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Seriously?!
Wov! Is there any country, nation, religious group etc. left that is not on the list of genocide commiters on this article? It looks like either every country in the world commited genocide against each other, or accusing any nation or country you don't like with "genocide" is a very popular practice these days. I really think this concept is really overused. I'm looking at the article and any killing in history which involves more than three people is labeled as genocide. Come on guys! There are other words in language like massacre, mass murder, war etc. Genocide should only be used in rare situations with historically proven practices with a premeditated and planned intent and act of ethnical cleaning of an entire nation. I'm talking about concentration camps, gas chambers, officials discussing most effective ways of killing most people in minimum time etc., and (at least) couple of millions of dead bodies... But any revolt which was repressed with blood; any overly-violent battle with civilian causilties, any kind of massacre is counted as genocide here. It really cheapens the meaning.85.96.26.221 (talk) 06:27, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
Does the Christian wiping out of Pagans in the Later Roman Empire classify as a genocide? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.43.227.18 (talk) 06:12, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
Hmm. Someone else is also starting to see just how stupid/impossible/biased/difficult this article is. I propose RFD, but won't do it myself because there are just too many people who seem to think a list (WIKI has lots of them) with no definition is somehow informative.Aaaronsmith (talk) 17:51, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
- RfD isn't worth it. A better name might be "List of Genocide Claims". See the problem is that in order to have a neutral point of view, you need to include all of them, because it should be up to the reader to decide which ones are and which ones aren't, not to us editors. Now, if they have no sources, then they are vulnerable. Otherwise, not. What actually is genocide is a matter of contention, that's the issue. --Yalens (talk) 17:59, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
- I may add: additionally, there are ones that I could see as genocide, like what the Teutonic Knights did to the Prussians, wiping out on the basis of pagan religion and culture, that could be on there. They aren't on because people like myself don't take the time to find sources and put them on. Genocide is not genocide only if Jews are the victims. It is a pattern in history. --Yalens (talk) 18:00, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
- Interesting you should pick that example. Also a perfect example of the problems this turkey of an article creates. Since the Jews are still around in force, how can you claim genocide without a stricter definition than the one implied by the single word?Aaaronsmith (talk) 04:57, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
Americas
Main article: Population history of American indigenous peoples From the 1490s when Christopher Columbus set foot on the Americas to the 1890 massacre of Sioux at Wounded Knee by the United States militia
"militia" should be amended to "military" if this refers to Custer's 7th cavalry
Irish genocides
Why is their no mention of the elizabethan genocide in ireland when the english slaughtered over 1.5 million irish civilians —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.163.150.176 (talk) 23:49, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
- I was checking references #76 and #77. I cannot find anything like what they're supposed to say in the Google book search version of the books, and no text is provided in the article. I suspect the references are bogus. In the Richard English book, Google book search does not find any reference to Cromwell on the pages listed in the reference. The reference in the article claims that Cromwell's actions in Ireland not being described as a genocide should be in pages 17-38. The Google Book Search of the text finds nothing before page 57. Similarly, the reference in the article claims that the Paul Bew book mentions Cromwell on pages 5-61, yet the Google Book search of the page shows no mention before page 303, and certainly nothing visible about genocide. If I'm not missing something, then these references are incorrect. Howsoonhathtime (talk) 19:13, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
- Anyone? Otherwise I'll start to delete the references and the text. From what I can see at the moment these references are incorrect, or mis-described, or something. Howsoonhathtime (talk) 07:58, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
- Done. This is the diff in case anyone wants to provide some support to the references. As I say, they seem to me to be incorrect. Howsoonhathtime (talk) 16:00, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
I agree. There are dozens of potential genocides that should be cited from Britain, most strikingly the Irish Genocide. This very notable event in history is a gaping hole in the record of events. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dnalram (talk • contribs) 05:33, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
Belgian Congo
or the Belgian Congo: it is said, that small Belgiums monarchy in companionship of beneficiary Dunlop slaved and murdered beastly about 10 mio. Congolese people in 20 years (1890-1908). That would be the biggest systematic organized genocide exceeding even the holocaust. it should be implemented into the main article by someone who is able to provide serious sources. And Belgium should be forced to at least apologize to the Congolese!--93.233.100.219 (talk) 12:38, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
- I don't think these atrocities fit the definition of genocide ("Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group" (Genocides in history); "[...] a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves" (Lemkin); "[...] any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:(a) Killing members of the group;(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group" (Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Article II)). Genocide supposes a deliberate policy of destruction, which is absent according to Adam Hochschild (author of King Leopold's Ghost).
- By the way: the territory of Congo was called Congo Free State between 1890 and 1908, and was Leopold II's private property. Belgian Congo existed from 1908 onwards (until 1960) as a Belgian colony.--91.181.192.228 (talk) 18:49, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
Japanese imperial rule of Korean was Genocide?
I just stumbled upon this article and found it strange that Japan's colonial rule of Korea is listed as a genocide. Everything else on this list involves mass killings, use of violence, etc to destroy ethnic groups. Under Japanese colonial rule, there were policies aimed at integrating Korea into a colonial empire by having people learn Japanese and register their names in the Japanese style, but the claims that Japan was committing "cultural genocide" are pretty far out. Has this article been hijacked by a Korean nationalist?
Scholarly studies like "Colonial Modernity in Korea" (ISBN-10: 0674005945) have pretty much revealed the claims of "cultural genocide" to be bunk. The Japanese authorities actually promoted many forms of Korean cultural expression and funded a Korean-language radio network. Most non-nationalistic scholars tend to agree that Tokyo's aim was to create a Japanese "Asian" empire in which many cultures existed under Japanese leadership. Japan did not try to "erase" Korean culture. It tried to use it for its advantage. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.148.70.142 (talk • contribs) 09:17, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
Persecution of Christians in the Roman Empire
This seriously needs a reference from a published source. --Kansas Bear (talk) 04:49, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- I removed it (WP:PROVEIT) It needs reliable sources stating that it was a genocide, not just a series of nasty events. -- PBS (talk) 09:14, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
Russian Empire
"Although there is no legal continuity between the Russian Empire and the modern Russian Federation". I marked that as dubious, because I don't think this is correct. The USSR was the successor state to the Russian Empire, and the Russian Federation is the successor state to the USSR so it follows that there is a continuity between the Russian Empire and the modern Russian Federation. -- PBS (talk) 09:14, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- I deleted the line for that very reason. It has not been put back in (yet). --Yalens (talk) 18:09, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
China under Mao
I removed this section (among other changes, but I think this is what was controversial), but Jayjg reverted this as "POV blanking". In fact, Mao's persecution of "rightists" does not fulfill the mainstream definition of 'genocide', as the lead for this article says, because it is persecution of a political group; not a racial, religious, or ethnic group. The only source listed that uses the word 'genocide' with Mao's campaigns, laments the fact that it is not considered genocide, and the author says in his personal capacity that he prefers a more expansive view of genocide to cover China. Splittist (talk) 23:06, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- Personally, I don't view it as being genocide either (it is politicide). However, our personal views here are not particularly important, as it is a genocide claim that merits inclusion, even if that claim bends the definition. On that note, we also have the Vendees here. --Yalens (talk) 20:06, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not arguing Mao's removal based on personal views. It's simply a strange and original Wikipedian interpretation to group together such things as famine during the Great Leap Forward, persecution of rightists in the Cultural Revolution, and prison labor, as "genocide". The section doesn't even do that; the sources don't do that; it calls them mass killings, and that's why it's one sentence.
- I interpret the note in the lead about genocides always being deniable as meaning, that genocides such as the Armenian Genocide which are widely regarded as such will stay, despite having some Turkish denial. Not that any single person's claim of a genocide will warrant its inclusion. I commonly hear the "genocide" label slapped onto Israeli treatment of Palestinians in the occupied territories, yet this case is not present here, I assume because of standards and not for a lack of people who would like to claim this.
- Did you remove all instances of genocide on the page that did "not fulfill the mainstream definition of 'genocide', as the lead for this article says."? Jayjg (talk) 01:01, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
- No. My two edits have clear (albeit compressed, for the character limit) edit summaries in the history. The only section I removed was the Mao section, for the reasons stated above and in my subsequent reply (Mao fails a lower standard than being a fringe claim of genocide; there's not even a claim of genocide except by some Wikipedian).
- I made an unrelated edit to the Tibet section to remove a blockquote from a press release from the ICJ saying they would take the case, and if they found evidence of genocide they would act. There was already a blockquote from the final analysis of the ICJ, which I thought was more important and less presumptuous (and less confusing) than the threatening press release enumerating the potential consequences for an anticlimactic conclusion. It read like it was written before the decision came out, and when it did, it wasn't updated. Splittist (talk) 01:40, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
- I believe this section is talking about Mao. But nonetheless, the same logic can apply for Tibet if you insist. Whether it is clear is not the matter of debate. We know why you edited. However, that is not how it is done with regard to the page. As it says at the top of the page itself, it is a list of CLAIMED genocides. Not a single one of these claims (not even the Holocaust) is universally accepted. In the case of Tibet and China under Mao, both are not really genocides in my opinion- one is cultural genocide, the other is politicide. However, being a genocide claim is significant as well, for the effect on identity politics it has as well as the effect of the claim itself. Now, I don't exactly find the quote about Tibet all that confusing either. The ICJ called it genocide, period. Whether it was right is for the reader to decide. We may also put up, eventually, that it wasn't only the ICJ, but many other observers also called it such. Yes, perhaps it was incorrect (though, perhaps, brutal oppression would be?). However, your (or anyone's) personal views on this do not need to manifest themselves by deleting large amounts of sourced material on the page. Let the reader decide for themself. --Yalens (talk) 02:01, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
- This section is talking about Mao. I did not and am not addressing the question of whether or not Tibet is a genocide, and did not at all express my personal views on the matter (so don't assume). There are two quotes on the page. One quote was the ICJ saying they would take the case and take the appropriate action if genocide was found. Another quote was from the results of the case, in which the ICJ claimed cultural genocide. I removed the first, not the second—in my opinion, the first quote was only appropriate when we were waiting for the decision. It's unnecessary now since we have the results.
- Back to Mao. You haven't addressed the fact that no source, not even the Wikipedia text accuses Mao of genocide. Not a single claim. Splittist (talk) 02:40, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
- There's no lack of sources describing the millions killed at the behest of Mao as "genocide":
- R. J. Rummel wrote a whole book on the subject, China's Bloody Century: Genocide and Mass Murder Since 1900. No, the issue here isn't a lack of sources on the subject. Jayjg (talk) 03:18, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
- Back to Mao. You haven't addressed the fact that no source, not even the Wikipedia text accuses Mao of genocide. Not a single claim. Splittist (talk) 02:40, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
- The Encyclopedia of Genocide and the "whole book on the subject" (which is not of genocide specifically), prefer the term democide because it is expansive enough to cover cases not traditionally termed genocide (it seems the word 'genocide' was only used in the subtitle and chapter name, and the former is often at the discretion of the publisher). R. J. Rummel has an webpage discussing the difference between the various terms for mass killings, and the very specific definition of genocide.
- The Dictionary of Genocide only uses the word "genocide" in "ruthless genocidal destruction of those who opposed his regime", which this article's own lead points out does not conform to the Genocide Convention's definition. The Geography of Genocide page you linked to was, "China against Tibet". Actually, that book takes for granted every case it lists, because it tries to explain how genocides are a result of 'emasculation', and doesn't detail the killings themselves. Finally, the Oxford handbook contrasts the Great Leap Forward with "Ukraine's famine genocide" to point out that the deaths were not a result of a policy to destroy a specific group, but a blind faith in certain farming techniques.
- All of the sources you linked to are not what you say: direct referral to a specific event of Mao's as "genocide". The section on Wikipedia conflated too many things; the completely separate Great Leap Forward and the Anti-Rightist Campaign, for example, as part of one big original overreaching genocide interpretation. So there is a trouble of a lack of sources. If you think that there is "an issue here" besides that as you insinuated, you should be candid. Splittist (talk) 03:59, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
Questionable reference
" Turks claim that since no country recognizes this behavior as genocide (well over 1 million Turks were killed in such a way between 1870 and the end of World War II), it is absurd to call what happened to the Armenians in Anatolia (with similar proportions) genocide, and that the genocide claim is just being used against the losing side in the First World War." All purportedly being reference by The Ghost of Freedom: A History of the Caucasus by Charles King. This edit needs a page number for verifiability.
Another common claim made by not only Turks, but also other peoples of the region, is that the actions of Bulgaria, Serbia, Montenegro and Greece during the First Balkan War (against Albanians and Turks, as well as other peoples of the region)and of the same list minus Bulgaria during the Second (against Bulgarians) constituted genocide, especially those by the Serbs against Albanians and Turks in Kosovo and Macedonia. --Glenny, Misha. "The Balkans", needs a page number as well. --Kansas Bear (talk) 02:15, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
- I've gotten them both now, and added more references. I would appreciate to not be yelled at, as I don't have any anti-Armenian feelings myself anyways, its just the truth that everyone ignores what happened to Ottomon Muslims in those three wars (First Balkan War, WWI, Turkish-Greek war).--Yalens (talk) 17:12, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
Tibet
I made two edits on the Tibet section of this article, but they got caught in the rollback intended to restore the "China under Mao" section (see above) along with an also unrelated addition to Mexico. Since they were brought up as a sidenote in that section of the talkpage, and there was the misunderstanding that my edits to China and my edits to Tibet were for the same reasons (they are not), I will bring these edits to discussion here, before they are re-added.
The first edit was to remove a blockquote of the press release of the ICJ to signify that the ICJ received a report by Shri Purshottam Trikamdas which alleged genocide in Tibet. I copy the quote here:
“ | From the facts stated above the following conclusions may be drawn: ... (e) To examine all such evidence obtained by this Committee and from other sources and to take appropriate action thereon and in particular to determine whether the crime of Genocide—for which already there is strong presumption—is established and, in that case, to initiate such action as envisaged by the Genocide Convention of 1948 and by the Charter of the United Nations for suppression of these acts and appropriate redress;[1] | ” |
Basically, this quote just says that the ICJ is going to examine the evidence and initiate appropriate action according to the Genocide Convention if the crime of genocide is established.
But the next paragraph quoting the actual ICJ report states that the ICJ only found "acts of genocide... independent of any conventional obligation" and there was not "sufficient proof... that can be regarded as genocide in international law". Therefore, I thought that listing (as in the first quote) the procedure for what would happen if a breach of the Genocide Convention were found is confusing to readers (because it was ultimately not found, although that was not established at the time of the quoted press conference) and the long quote is clutter which is not that useful. Splittist (talk) 04:43, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
- If the ICJ said that the evidence was not sufficient, we should add that too. --Yalens (talk) 16:20, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
- That's already in the article. When I said "the next paragraph quoting the report", I meant the next Wikipedia paragraph. I maintain that the ominous quote about what could happen if a breach of the Convention was found is made obsolescent by the results of the report, and can be removed without damage to the main content. Splittist (talk) 17:11, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
The second edit which I made removed an original parenthesized note from a Wikipedian, which was appended onto a paragraph in which academics rebut claims of genocide in Tibet by, among other things, citing Tibet's positive population growth. The note in question was "(if the Chinese census and its claims about Tibet in the past are to be taken as true)". I removed this because it was a part-redundant, part-incorrect insinuation.
First of all, "If the Chinese census... is to be taken as true" implies that there are challenges to the Chinese census in this regard: but both Tibetan government-in-exile and the Chinese government camps agree on the numbers of Tibetans and on the modern census. The only disagreement is on how many Tibetans there were when the Dalai Lama ruled: but this is already covered in the paragraph by the note, "(according to these scholars, however, there was no real scientific data taken on demographics during the Lamaist era)". The editor is probably making reference to the occasional claims by the TGIE that the population of Tibet/Tibetans has decreased, and not increased. But this is a complex issue out of the scope of the article, because the TGIE has a more expansive definition of "Tibet" and "Tibetans" than does the Chinese government or ethnographers. But the note I think can be removed because the first claim, that the modern Chinese census is an incorrect count, is not in dispute. The second claim of the note, which is that the Lama's census data for "Tibet's past" is questionable, is already covered in a previous note.
Are there any comments about this? Splittist (talk) 04:43, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
- While there is scepticism about the modern Chinese census, that has nothing to do with the topic at hand (I believe you misunderstood the text, I will make it clearer). The scepticism is about the old census (the Lama's one). Tibet, as we know, especially during the early 1900s, was a very remote place, and the remotest parts of the country are difficult to reach. There is plenty of scepticism on the verifiability of the old census, by Tibetans, by Westerners and yes, by Chinese themselves.
- Now, how is this in the scope of the article? To defend itself ideologically against claims of its mistreatment of Tibet, the Chinese government, as we all know, has used a trope that is quite familiar- that they are helping improve Tibetans' lives (even though the latter have a rather different idea on this matter) by bringing modern technology to Tibet, which China paints as a backwards region in need of modernization (the less sugarcoated version of this, among the Chinese themselves, is that they are bringing civilization to the Tibetans, a claim I have heard countless times). This is one piece of a large part of modern Chinese communist ideology, that there are different levels of development among China's ethnic groups, and that those lower down are supposed to be helped (whether they want help or not) to develop. Of course, helping them develop actually translates to sending mass amounts of Han migrants to their lands and having those practically run the place )much more angering the minority in question- be they Yi, Tibetan, Uighur or whatever- than making them grateful), and still having the minorities doing the less desirable jobs. But that is not the topic of discussion. On this wikipedia page, two of China's claims about how it has improved Tibet have shown up- one that the population has doubled, and the other that the life expectancy has improved.
- For the second, I believe earlier there was a claim that the Tibetans' life expectancy had increased substantially as well- which should be looked at very cautiously, since we really have no clue what the life expectancy was previously (not to mention that it would be wrong to lump a whole land- Tibet- together and generalize it, as there are differences between relatively urban centers like Lhasa and the remote countryside, as well as regional differences). Any claim that the life expectancy has increased or decreased is completely unverifiable.
- For the first, this is more heavily debated. There are two main issues with it- the first is whether it is actually the case. Both the Chinese government and the Tibetan activists' claim are usually dismissed and the truth is said to be somewhere in between. But the article also neglected to mention numerous factors. An increase in population is not a phenomenon brought by China's civilizing influence, it is brought by modernization (which China claims credit for). But Bhutan, which is very similar to Tibet in many ways except that it is not now ruled by China, has also had a massive population increase (almost 0.9 million in 1961 up to somewhat below 2.3 million in 2005), and if we compare it by percent, it is much greater than Tibet's, even if we count China's claims (using the questionable older Tibetan census). Alas, this is not mentioned in the article, because, as you said yourself, it is venturing quite far off topic.
Bhutan's demographics 1961-2005
- Personally, I would be content if we just deleted both the discussion of the lifespan (I really don't know how we know the life expectancy was 34 in the Lamaist days... I don't see a citation for that either) and the population. For the population, if it needs to stay, we could also put in my note about Bhutan, and cite the Bhutanese censuses, I guess. But the lifespan... that's a stain on the page. --Yalens (talk) 16:20, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
- I don't like the idea of putting in Bhutan for comparison, because that is reinforcing the oversimplified premise that population increase = good, and population stagnation/decrease = genocide. Some demographers have suggested that Tibetan population growth has slowed compared to Bhutan because women are more empowered, and are exercising more autonomy and family planning. I am content with deleting the discussion of the lifespan and the population. Splittist (talk) 17:11, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
- ^ Tibet - Summary of a Report on Tibet: Submitted to the International Commission of Jurists by Shri Purshottam Trikamdas, Senior Advocate, Supreme Court of India