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== Formatting and linking == |
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== Section on prosecution of genocides copied where it may not be appropriate. == |
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== Massacres == |
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Hello, |
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This article indeed has many examples of people murdering other people, but massacres of dissidents or rebels is not genocide, nor is people dying it introduced diseases unless such massacres or introduction of disease were intentional acts to exterminate a people. Are we deliberately watering down the definition of genocide for some nefarious means? [[Special:Contributions/120.22.17.10|120.22.17.10]] ([[User talk:120.22.17.10|talk]]) 23:16, 3 July 2020 (UTC) |
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I'd just like to point out that the section on prosecutions of genocide perpetrators seems to have been copied in [[Genocides in history (1946 to 1999]]. Should we remove or modify the section on that sub-article? Or should we let it be? [[Special:Contributions/204.13.204.194|204.13.204.194]] ([[User talk:204.13.204.194|talk]]) 22:00, 8 December 2022 (UTC) |
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It is a loaded and political question. High above us, humble Wikipedians to decide. If we find a couple of RSes which say smth is a genocide, we construct an argument here, taking POV amd DUE etc. into account. |
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Pls correct me if I am wrong. |
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[[User:Zezen|Zezen]] ([[User talk:Zezen|talk]]) 03:19, 25 August 2020 (UTC) |
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== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 December 2023 == |
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== You mentioned: Determining what historical events constitute a genocide and which are merely criminal or inhuman behavior is not a clear-cut matter. == |
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{{edit extended-protected|Genocides in history|answered=yes}} |
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Two American colloquialisms for that are semigenocide, semiholocaust due to: |
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I would suggest adding the Nanking massacre, and the the first nuclear bombs dropped on Japan as genocide. These were major historic events. [[Special:Contributions/2001:569:FB65:EB00:461:D235:7867:19B4|2001:569:FB65:EB00:461:D235:7867:19B4]] ([[User talk:2001:569:FB65:EB00:461:D235:7867:19B4|talk]]) 22:04, 8 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:[[File:Red question icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done:''' it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a [[WP:EDITXY|"change X to Y" format]] and provide a [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|reliable source]] if appropriate.<!-- Template:EEp --> [[User:EggRoll97|EggRoll97]] <sup>([[User_talk:EggRoll97|talk]]) </sup> 00:19, 9 December 2023 (UTC) |
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This page lacks an unavoidable reference to the acts of genocides committed by Timur during 35 years, including systematic ethnic cleansing and execution of entire populations, such as in Delhi and Middle East. According to Timur's contemporary chronicles and modern Historians, most victims were killed because of their religion beliefs, including Hindi, Buddhist, Armenian, Georgian, Greek Orthodox, etc. Estimates vary between 17 and 20 Million victims: |
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# not enough data |
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17 Million vicitms according to "The History of the Mongol Conquests" of |
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# not enough deaths |
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John Joseph Saunders (1971) and the "Armies of the Ottoman Turks, 1300–1774." of David Nicolle (1983). |
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# not a single criminal side |
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20 Million victims according to "Tamerlane: Sword of Islam, Conqueror of the World" of Justin Marozzi (2004). <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:As97wiki|As97wiki]] ([[User talk:As97wiki#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/As97wiki|contribs]]) 21:42, 25 December 2023 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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# not enough international acceptance of the facts |
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== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 15 January 2024 == |
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or some of the above. {{subst|xsign:18:40, 9 July 2020 2a02:587:410e:ca26:206c:5769:e396:a34f}} |
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{{edit extended-protected|Genocides in history|answered=yes}} |
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:They may be colloquialisms to you, but I've never heard them before, and neither has Google. [https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=semigenocide], [https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&sxsrf=ALeKk01jye1ef8eyXtQxwB81139Qq_CeGw%3A1594336549452&ei=JaUHX7j7Gu-m_QauuJS4CA&q=%22semiholocaust%22&oq=%22semiholocaust%22&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQA1AAWABgt7sBaAFwAHgAgAEAiAEAkgEAmAEAqgEHZ3dzLXdpergBAQ&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwj4obq9psHqAhVvU98KHS4cBYcQ4dUDCAs&uact=5], so I don;t think they'd be of much use to us. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 23:17, 9 July 2020 (UTC) |
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Add a subsection on the current South Africa vs Israel issue at the International Court of Justice. There is already a wikipedia page on this. I have a possible paragraph to add at section https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history#International_Court_of_Justice |
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## Israel |
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== "Euthanasia" problem use in article == |
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Use of the term 'euthanasia' [[Genocides in history#Non-Jewish victims|here]] is not appropriate. {{collapsetop}}It is defined as: |
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:[[Euthanasia|Euthanasia is the practice of intentionally ending a life ''to relieve pain and suffering''.]] (My emphasis) |
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Nowhere in that Wikipedia [[Euthanasia|article]] can you find a sense of the word where it could be used appropriately to describe Nazi or similar crimes. Indeed, the Nazi program is discussed there specifically, and categorically stated as euphemistic. |
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{{collapsebottom}} |
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:[[Euthanasia#Nazi_Euthanasia_Program | In modern terms, the use of "euthanasia" in the context of Action T4 is seen to be a euphemism to disguise a program of genocide, in which people were killed on the grounds of "disabilities, religious beliefs, and discordant individual values".]] |
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On December 29, 2023, [[South Africa]] filed an [[South_Africa_v._Israel_(Genocide_Convention)|Application instituting proceedings]] against Israel with the ICJ alleging that [[Israel]] had violated its obligations under the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (the "Genocide Convention") during its [[2023 Israel–Hamas war|2023 offensive in the Gaza Strip]].<ref>{{cite web |title=Application instituting proceedings and request for the indication of provisional measures. Document Number 192-20231228-APP-01-00-EN |url=https://www.icj-cij.org/node/203394}}</ref> South Africa's standing is based on the *erga omnes partes* nature of the Genocide Convention, which allows and obligates States Parties to the convention to take measures to prevent and punish the crime of genocide. South Africa requested indication of provisional measures by the ICJ, including that Israel end its military operations, to "protect against further, severe and irreperable harm to the rights of the Palestinian people under the Genocide Convention", triggering an urgent preliminary hearing. Public hearings on the provisional measures question were held on January 11 (oral arguments by South Africa) and January 12 (oral arguments by Israel), respectively.<ref>{{cite web |title=Application of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide in the Gaza Strip (South Africa v. Israel) |url=https://www.icj-cij.org/case/192}}</ref> [[User:Hovsepig|Hovsepig]] ([[User talk:Hovsepig|talk]]) 06:30, 15 January 2024 (UTC) |
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Mentions of it appear in the above-linked ''Aktion T4'' article in inverted commas, e.g. "euthanasia campaign". |
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: {{Done}} [[User:Pppery|* Pppery *]] [[User talk:Pppery|<sub style="color:#800000">it has begun...</sub>]] 21:45, 15 February 2024 (UTC) |
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{{collapsetop}} |
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By including it in [[Genocides in history#Non-Jewish victims|this article]], within a single sentence that lists |
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:"'''mistreatment''' of Soviet POWs" |
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:"'''crimes''' against ethnic Poles" |
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:"'''persecution''' of Jehovah's Witnesses" |
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:"'''the killing''' of Romani" |
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:"and '''other crimes''' committed against ethnic, sexual, and political minorities" |
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''and yet'' |
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:"'''euthanasia''' of mentally and physically disabled Germans" |
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you create confusion. The contrast of terms is discordant, grotesquely so. And, most importantly, reduces clarity. |
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{{reflist-talk}} |
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Perhaps I did not select the most apposite replacement term, but I fail to see why my well-intentioned, and I believe, thoughtful, edit should be so summarily reverted by {{Reply to|The Banner}} with no explanation whatsoever. Talk about a warm welcome! |
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If someone has a better term, I'd be grateful if you put it into the sentence instead, but please, please, don't leave it as euthanasia, unmarked![[Special:Contributions/122.105.187.37|122.105.187.37]] ([[User talk:122.105.187.37|talk]]) 09:49, 17 September 2020 (UTC) |
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:::'''Response to reversion rationale''' As you point out, it was the “official”(!) term used by Nazis, and often still used in discussing it. It is therefore completely in order to mention the word in WP articles that deal with Nazi atrocities.(I would point out, as an aside, that the Nazis likely had “official” labels, also, for the other atrocities in this same list, but there they are, shown simply and straightforwardly as I noted: ”killing”, “crimes”, etc. The mere fact of them having an official term, does not preclude the plainer, direct term from being neutral!) Perhaps because I referred to the well-understood modern definition, you imagined I was saying it must never be used in connection with Nazi actions. That is not it at all. |
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:::My edit (and talk page discussion) was nothing to do with the fact that the Germans misused the term "euthanasia". (Indeed, as criminal as these acts were, in one sense they did not misuse the term for that time: Prior to the 1940s, "euthanasia" was more generally understood to refer only to painless killing, which I understand Nazis purported to do in these cases.) |
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:::I accept that I may be wrong. I believe in the consensus approach. Perhaps others will chime in with their view. However, I believe you did not really address any of the actual points I raised, (only what you imagined I was saying. I apologise if my statements were not clear.) [[Special:Contributions/122.105.187.37|122.105.187.37]] ([[User talk:122.105.187.37|talk]]) 08:54, 18 September 2020 (UTC) |
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:::Finally, I took the instruction in the editorial advice, “The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless” to heart. I thought it was rather uncontroversial, but, hey, you live and learn! You’re never safe from being surprised when you can find someone who argues that using the “official" term of the Nazis, despite there being a more factual label available, is the only way to be neutral. |
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::All the best to you, anyway, {{Reply to|The Banner}}. |
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{{collapsebottom}} |
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While informally we may discuss the Nazi "euthanasia" program, with full understanding that we are speaking of an atrocity, it is unencyclopedic to use it here in this way. A person seeking understanding of Nazi genocide should not need to parse that, read between the lines, or contextualise. |
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:'''Reversion rationale''' - I have reverted your non-neutral edit. It is true that the Germans misused the term euthanasia, but it is the official term in many cases. See for example [[Aktion T4]]. <span style="border:1px solid green; padding:0 2px">[[User:The Banner|<span style="color:green">The Banner</span>]] [[User talk:The Banner|<i style="color:maroon">talk</i>]]</span> 15:06, 17 September 2020 (UTC) |
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::'''Non-neutral to remove "euthanasia"?''' |
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::Your reply suggests the Nazi term is the only way to be non-POV (!), while saying nothing about how it may be confusing to the reader, as I contend. |
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::People commonly use and understand ''euthanasia'' as in the definition above. |
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::When people are all on the same page, or there is a fuller discussion around the issue, and Nazi use of the term ''euthanasia'' is contextualised, then referring to this mass murder program as “euthanasia" is not problematic. |
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::When it appears in a [[Genocides in history#Non-Jewish victims|list]] of contemporaneous, associated crimes that contrast starkly with the blunt labels assigned them, as here, then that has the potential to obscure clarity. |
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::I was surprised to be directed to the [[Aktion T4]] page, as it was evidence from that article that I used to support my change. The opening reads: "Aktion T4 was a postwar name for '''''mass murder'' by involuntary euthanasia''' in Nazi Germany". Note here, as I mentioned in my earlier discussion, “euthanasia" appears in that article, but is perfectly clearly contextualised as mass murder, even if involuntary "euthanasia". As mentioned above, several WP articles use the word, but signal its dubious use by putting "-" around it, or other markers of non-standard usage. A similar understanding of the relevance and connotation of the terms is not present in, (and would not really be suitable for) the brief overview in [[Genocides in history]] article. |
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::In any case, I strongly reject that it is a non-neutral edit. My edit (and talk page discussion) was nothing to do with the fact that the Germans misused the term "euthanasia". I would welcome others' views and comments. [[Special:Contributions/122.105.187.37|122.105.187.37]] ([[User talk:122.105.187.37|talk]]) 08:54, 18 September 2020 (UTC) |
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:{{outdent|2}}I too find it utterly jarring to see the use of "euthanasia" as it is employed here, exactly as described above – divorced from context, it reads as indicated: like its vernacular definition; a reference to humane death, applied to those for whom it is a mercy, which in ''this context couldn't be more non-neutral''. It reads like something a nazi apologist might write. Don't get me wrong – I don't for a moment believe that is what's going on here in any way, shape or form – but that's ''the result'', given the nature of the subject, and we should not minimize how bad it really does sound. That is why that context absolutely needs to be either provided, if the word is to remain in use, or a term or phrase needs to be used that doesn't read like this, but can stand on its own without context. Yet, providing that context very well may be beyond the scope of an article that provides only summary entries. If any form of "euthenasia" is to remain, then, it needs some device to impart that context, such as scare quotes and linking to involuntary euthenasia at the least, but I think "mass murder" suits fine, because it needs no context to pull it back from an unintended, naturally imparted meaning by its common, vernacular use.--[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] ([[User talk:Fuhghettaboutit|talk]]) 05:45, 19 November 2020 (UTC) |
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:P.S. the capping of the above as "extended content" feels inappropriate – as if the capped sections are not normal discussion, important to the point being made, and have likely tendentious, [[TL;DR|tl;dr]] content. They do not.--[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] ([[User talk:Fuhghettaboutit|talk]]) 06:00, 19 November 2020 (UTC) |
Latest revision as of 16:42, 22 March 2024
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Formatting and linking
I have cleaned up this article again because it seems that a bunch of my edits were incorrectly reverted. Here are my edits:
- Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style, for quotations, use only quotation marks (for short quotations) or block quoting (for long ones), not italics.
- remove date links
- remove repeated links (e.g., "genocide") and links to plain English words per WP:REPEATLINK (e.g., nation, disease)
- remove boldface per WP:BOLDFACE
- spell out acronyms (like PKK) on first use per WP:MOS
- use a person's first and last name the first time he/she is mentioned (Tito, Obote, Mao)
Ground Zero (talk) 29 November 2010
Can I edit andcontribute to this this source
Can I edit this source? I really want to contribute to this wikipage.
Edit "Argentina"
At the moment it is stated that the "CPPCG does not include the elimination of political groups (because that group was removed at the behest of Stalin) ". While this maybe should just show the opinion of Judge Carlos Rozanski, it does not represent the more diverse historical facts. Actually, several states opposed the deletion of "political groups" from the convention and the finally successful attempt was led by Iran, Uruguay, and Egypt.[1] Therefore, I think, that the Stalin part should be removed and the discussion of whose fault it is that "political groups" are not part of the Convention should be transferred to the Convention-article.
References
- ^ LeBlanc, Lawrence J. (1988). "The United Nations Genocide Convention and Political Groups: Should the United States Propose an Amendment?". Yale Journal of International Law. 13 (2): 277.
Section on prosecution of genocides copied where it may not be appropriate.
Hello,
I'd just like to point out that the section on prosecutions of genocide perpetrators seems to have been copied in Genocides in history (1946 to 1999. Should we remove or modify the section on that sub-article? Or should we let it be? 204.13.204.194 (talk) 22:00, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 December 2023
I would suggest adding the Nanking massacre, and the the first nuclear bombs dropped on Japan as genocide. These were major historic events. 2001:569:FB65:EB00:461:D235:7867:19B4 (talk) 22:04, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
- Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. EggRoll97 (talk) 00:19, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
This page lacks an unavoidable reference to the acts of genocides committed by Timur during 35 years, including systematic ethnic cleansing and execution of entire populations, such as in Delhi and Middle East. According to Timur's contemporary chronicles and modern Historians, most victims were killed because of their religion beliefs, including Hindi, Buddhist, Armenian, Georgian, Greek Orthodox, etc. Estimates vary between 17 and 20 Million victims: 17 Million vicitms according to "The History of the Mongol Conquests" of John Joseph Saunders (1971) and the "Armies of the Ottoman Turks, 1300–1774." of David Nicolle (1983). 20 Million victims according to "Tamerlane: Sword of Islam, Conqueror of the World" of Justin Marozzi (2004). — Preceding unsigned comment added by As97wiki (talk • contribs) 21:42, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 15 January 2024
Add a subsection on the current South Africa vs Israel issue at the International Court of Justice. There is already a wikipedia page on this. I have a possible paragraph to add at section https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history#International_Court_of_Justice
- Israel
On December 29, 2023, South Africa filed an Application instituting proceedings against Israel with the ICJ alleging that Israel had violated its obligations under the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (the "Genocide Convention") during its 2023 offensive in the Gaza Strip.[1] South Africa's standing is based on the *erga omnes partes* nature of the Genocide Convention, which allows and obligates States Parties to the convention to take measures to prevent and punish the crime of genocide. South Africa requested indication of provisional measures by the ICJ, including that Israel end its military operations, to "protect against further, severe and irreperable harm to the rights of the Palestinian people under the Genocide Convention", triggering an urgent preliminary hearing. Public hearings on the provisional measures question were held on January 11 (oral arguments by South Africa) and January 12 (oral arguments by Israel), respectively.[2] Hovsepig (talk) 06:30, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
- Done * Pppery * it has begun... 21:45, 15 February 2024 (UTC)