Ashot Arzumanyan (talk | contribs) →Misconduct edits of Verman1: Says who? |
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:Preceding post mostly has nothing to do with the article. Main purpose of Mr.Bagramyan is to denigrate users who don't share his views (thus following Mr.Ashot's way). Tsitsernavank monastery has nothing to do with this temple. My questions still stay unanswered. Also, Robert Hewsen noted that Albanian catholicate was "branch" of Armenian Church, which is completely wrong. Caucasian Albanian Church was not branch of any church until 19th century, when it was forcibly annexed to the Armenian Church. Regards, --[[User:Verman1|Verman1]] ([[User talk:Verman1|talk]]) 06:47, 5 April 2011 (UTC) |
:Preceding post mostly has nothing to do with the article. Main purpose of Mr.Bagramyan is to denigrate users who don't share his views (thus following Mr.Ashot's way). Tsitsernavank monastery has nothing to do with this temple. My questions still stay unanswered. Also, Robert Hewsen noted that Albanian catholicate was "branch" of Armenian Church, which is completely wrong. Caucasian Albanian Church was not branch of any church until 19th century, when it was forcibly annexed to the Armenian Church. Regards, --[[User:Verman1|Verman1]] ([[User talk:Verman1|talk]]) 06:47, 5 April 2011 (UTC) |
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::Says who? Any reference except yourself? --[[User:Ashot Arzumanyan|<span style="background:#913100;color:#EDEDED" vlink="color:#EDEDED">''' '''Ashot''' </span>]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Ashot Arzumanyan|<span style="color:#913100">talk</span>]])</sup> 07:19, 5 April 2011 (UTC) |
::Says who? Any reference except yourself? --[[User:Ashot Arzumanyan|<span style="background:#913100;color:#EDEDED" vlink="color:#EDEDED">''' '''Ashot''' </span>]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Ashot Arzumanyan|<span style="color:#913100">talk</span>]])</sup> 07:19, 5 April 2011 (UTC) |
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:::I don't think opposite side is willing to reach any consensus with above-mentioned posts. This is discussion page, regarded page's issue must be disscussed here. I don't think it is right place to denigrate other users. Regards, --[[User:Verman1|Verman1]] ([[User talk:Verman1|talk]]) 07:28, 5 April 2011 (UTC) |
Revision as of 07:28, 5 April 2011
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Archbishop
I am fairly certain the Archbishop resides in Shushi. I would feel more comfortable with the statement to the contrary being removed unless it is referenced. --RaffiKojian 17:44, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
This monastery hav several properties that classifies it as udi or alban monastery rather than armenian monastery.Reynhold 02:06, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Edited the text. Also, Gandzasar is the official Seat of the Archbishop of Artsakh. However, the Archbishopric's main administrative offices are located in Shushi. The Archbishop lives in Shushi. Capasitor (talk) 00:23, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
Crescent and star
Tagging Islamic symbols on Christian churches is insulting to Christian religion. I would welcome the Azeri-stub if the image changes. Note that I'm leaving the wp:AZ tag in the talkpage as it is not highly visible. VartanM (talk) 21:58, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Albanian Monastery
"Eight years after the beginning of Armenian migration, in 1836, the czarist government dissolved the Albanian Church district and brought it under the complete control of the Armenian national church." ref here --144.122.135.88 (talk) 18:31, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
"After the Arab domination ended, the Caucasian Albanian Church became a diocese of the Armenian Church and the name Aghvan survived only in the name of this diocese associated with the church and monastery complex at Gandzasar, which was the See of the Catholicate of the Caucasian Albanian Church" ref here Please, stop giving misinformation! --144.122.135.88 (talk) 18:35, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
- Well, stop misinterpreting. Sardur (talk) 22:26, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
- Please, see the references here Kardashians (talk) 11:30, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
NPOV
According to NPOV we should write both names and both states that pretend to possess the territory where the object is located. --Quantum666 (talk) 06:36, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
- The Azerbaijani spelling clearly does not belong here (both for Dadivank and Gandzasar). The issue here is not a matter of presenting a neutral point of view. According to Wiki's rules, the foreign spelling must have some relevance to the article in question. This was a Christian Armenian monastery built by Armenians during a time when no Azerbaijani nationality existed. Just because it is in a land which as you believe temporarily is de jure part of Azerbaijan does not mean we add Azerbaijani to it as well. Thus, there is no meaning in adding this script. Also, remembering the fact that Azerbaijani historians have and continue to distort and erase the history of Armenian churches in not only Nagorno-Karabakh and Armenia, it seems dangerous to include the Azerbaijani spelling, causing readers to be mislead or to inadvertently misinterpret the facts. Andranikpasha (talk) 13:36, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
- Answered here.--Quantum666 (talk) 06:06, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
The Monastery situated in Azerbaijan
There was false information regarding region of this temple. The monastery is located inside internationally accepted borders of Azerbaijan Republic. It was built as Caucasian Albanian church (as written in the facade of the temple). I hope this information will be taken into consideration. Regards, --Verman1 (talk) 05:38, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
- The Monastery is situated in Nagorno-Karabakh Republic de-facto and in Azerbaijan de-jure. Both pieces of information are equally correct, so if you make any change, please be constructive to reflect both instead of destructing one in favor of the other. Please make sure you follow WP:NPOV while doing so.
- As per Caucasian Albania and related issues, you are welcome to launch a new discussion section with that title and put your arguments with respective references there. -- Ashot (talk) 15:16, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
- This form of article cannot be acceptable as it holds too many false and one-sided information. There were many neutral sources ([De Waal, Thomas (2003). Black garden: Armenia and Azerbaijan through peace and war. New York: New York University Press. p. 154. ISBN 0-8147-1944-9. Retrieved July 19, 2010.
{{cite book}}
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(help)], Late History of Albanian Church) showing this temple being built as Caucasian Albanian Church. I am trying to do my best in order to follow neutrality, but this article shows Kalbajar region of Azerbaijan as a part of another country (which is unacceptable by any means). WP:NPOV rule is completely ignored in Mr. Ashot's reverts. I am afraid we are going to ask again for mediator in here too, for the reason that Mr. Ashot will not let any neutral source to be introduced in the article. Regards, --Verman1 (talk) 17:24, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
- This form of article cannot be acceptable as it holds too many false and one-sided information. There were many neutral sources ([De Waal, Thomas (2003). Black garden: Armenia and Azerbaijan through peace and war. New York: New York University Press. p. 154. ISBN 0-8147-1944-9. Retrieved July 19, 2010.
Misconduct edits of Verman1
Verman1, who has recently made edits here, was very well aware of Wikipedia guidelines (at least via another discussion at Talk:Tsitsernavank Monastery). Regardless of this, he initiated changes here without preliminary discussion. Hence, his edits are reverted. -- Ashot (talk) 13:42, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
- I am going to show good will and will wait for Mr. Ashot to follow neutrality. If not, I will have no option but to put neutrally sourced information by myself. Regards, --Verman1 (talk) 17:33, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
- Put it here first, get a consensus, and then you are free to put it in the article. This is what the talk pages are for! -- Ashot (talk) 17:37, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
- Related sources have already been posted in here. These are very clear editions. It is impossible to put all content of these books in here. As of specific evidence, we have these facts (but not only).
- 1) The monastery situated in the Kalbajar Rayon of Azerbaijan (it is unacceptable not to publish this information)
- 2) Gandzasar was the residence of the catholicos of the Albanian Catholicate from about 1400 until 1816, (until Caucasian Albanian Church was annexed to Armenian Church by Russian authorities)
- 3) There is inscription in the facade of the temple. Inscription contains these writings "I Hasan Jalal, build this temple for my people of Aghvank". Aghvank is ancient name of Caucasian Albania. Therefore it is ridiculous to call Hasan-Jalal an Armenian prince.
- These information in the 2nd and 3rd parts are published by third-party and by neutral sources. Current form of this article is obviously one-sided and contains falsified information, which can mislead any reader. Regards, --Verman1 (talk) 04:55, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
- Probably you should read more about citing in Wikipedia guidelines. One should mention exact pages in references so that others can crosscheck how this or that author support the idea. Additionally you are welcome to post full sections of proposed article text here and ask for comments and concerns. Once you get a consensus, you are free to publish the text. I thought I was clear about that in my previous notes. -- Ashot (talk) 05:46, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
- I didn't get any answer from Mr. Ashot regarding above-mentioned facts. I have to ask again for Mr.Ashot's views about these facts, we have to get consensus regarding them. Please don't get away from the issue. My editions was fully well-referenced, had citations from neutral sources, thus it will be regarded as vandalism to revert them. Regards, --Verman1 (talk) 06:02, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
- Probably you should read more about citing in Wikipedia guidelines. One should mention exact pages in references so that others can crosscheck how this or that author support the idea. Additionally you are welcome to post full sections of proposed article text here and ask for comments and concerns. Once you get a consensus, you are free to publish the text. I thought I was clear about that in my previous notes. -- Ashot (talk) 05:46, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
- Put it here first, get a consensus, and then you are free to put it in the article. This is what the talk pages are for! -- Ashot (talk) 17:37, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
This just looks like a repeat of what transpired on the Tsitsernvank article. You delete third-party references and insert POV information which is backed up by partisan websites that do not even come close being neutral, let alone accurate. You're even being selective on what to quote from your more reliable sources. In De Waal's book, the author quotes historian Robert Hewsen who plain says that the people who built Gandzasar considered themselves as nothing else but Armenians, even if they were ruling over an antiquated realm known by the name of "Aghuvank", which itself was the Armenian designation for Caucasian Albania. The full quote is the following: "Finally we came to the Karabakhi prince, Hasan-Jalal. Professor Hewsen concluded that "I have found not a shred of evidence that [the meliks] ever thought of themselves as anything but Armenians, albeit members of the Albanian branch of the Armenian Church." This is hardly an innocent case of a content dispute because numerous editors have in the past couple of years tried to rechristen these Armenian churches as Caucasian Albanian, an opinion which holds no water among academia today. Furthermore, Verman's own attitude towards the editing process is getting tedious. He clearly shows that he doesn't like what has been written here and that not only is his version of this article written by him the "correct" one, but that everything else is "vandalism" and thus "unacceptable". That sort of attitude and behavior is not welcomed here with open arms. --Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 06:17, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
- Preceding post mostly has nothing to do with the article. Main purpose of Mr.Bagramyan is to denigrate users who don't share his views (thus following Mr.Ashot's way). Tsitsernavank monastery has nothing to do with this temple. My questions still stay unanswered. Also, Robert Hewsen noted that Albanian catholicate was "branch" of Armenian Church, which is completely wrong. Caucasian Albanian Church was not branch of any church until 19th century, when it was forcibly annexed to the Armenian Church. Regards, --Verman1 (talk) 06:47, 5 April 2011 (UTC)