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::That Wikipedia is still discussing this is astonishing, and deeply dismaying. |
::That Wikipedia is still discussing this is astonishing, and deeply dismaying. |
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::Our article is already far too sympathetic to misogynistic harassment. Masem urges us to take "the most conservative...view" and ''then'' "add claims from the off-center points" -- an approach that would be a right-wing extremist's fever dream. The encyclopedic approach, quite clearly, is to express the consensus of the best and most authoritatively reliable sources. They agree without exception that the purported ethics concerns are unfounded, miasmic, vague, mistaken, or illusory, while the threats of rape, murder, and personal injury are, everyone agrees, repellent. (Masem just this argument for a month-long expedition to WT:NPOV. After that huge discussion did not go his way, his promised dropping of that particular stick has apparently become inoperative.) |
::Our article is already far too sympathetic to misogynistic harassment. Masem urges us to take "the most conservative...view" and ''then'' "add claims from the off-center points" -- an approach that would be a right-wing extremist's fever dream. The encyclopedic approach, quite clearly, is to express the consensus of the best and most authoritatively reliable sources. They agree without exception that the purported ethics concerns are unfounded, miasmic, vague, mistaken, or illusory, while the threats of rape, murder, and personal injury are, everyone agrees, repellent. (Masem just took this argument for a month-long expedition to WT:NPOV. After that huge discussion did not go his way, his promised dropping of that particular stick has apparently become inoperative.) |
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::Wikipedia's continued indulgence of this disruptive and highly organized crusade to whitewash Gamergate's reputation is shameful, and its continuance long past the point when it's intent and malice has been made abundantly clear to all is a further shame -- and a very real threat to the project itself. [[User:MarkBernstein|MarkBernstein]] ([[User talk:MarkBernstein|talk]]) 15:06, 15 June 2015 (UTC) |
::Wikipedia's continued indulgence of this disruptive and highly organized crusade to whitewash Gamergate's reputation is shameful, and its continuance long past the point when it's intent and malice has been made abundantly clear to all is a further shame -- and a very real threat to the project itself. [[User:MarkBernstein|MarkBernstein]] ([[User talk:MarkBernstein|talk]]) 15:06, 15 June 2015 (UTC) |
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update on arstechnica.com/business/2015/05/gamergate-critic-posts-death-threat-voicemail-after-inaction-by-prosecutor/
One of our sources, http://arstechnica.com/business/2015/05/gamergate-critic-posts-death-threat-voicemail-after-inaction-by-prosecutor/, has been updated. We should edit or delete the sentence which cites this source in light of this update. Chrisrus (talk) 13:50, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
- Updated to remove the radio silence bit. Based on the update it looks like there was a miscommunication between Wu & the FBI. — Strongjam (talk) 14:00, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
- Now it says that she's expressed frustration, but the authorities have responded that her frustration is not founded and cited evidence, and she has apologetically backed off that assertion. Even if she still maintains face-saving wiggle room that she still thinks her cases have been mishandled by other authorities, she provides no evidence or reason for us to pass such allegations from her along to our readers. Just delete it as a non-event or mistake. Chrisrus (talk) 14:15, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
- Miscommunication over one case. Her complaint about lack of action on all of the many threats and harassment against her are still valid. — Strongjam (talk) 14:21, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
- They might or might not be valid, but in this citation the only any evidence provided is also contradicted and retracted. What remains is a vague allegation with nothing to back it up. Chrisrus (talk) 14:42, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
- The statement as it stands now is both true and verifiable. I don't think there is anything left to discuss. — Strongjam (talk) 14:52, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
- While that statement may be true and verifiable, it's not a fair summary of that source. A fair summary of that source would say in appropriate language that that certain allegations were made on a blog that did not check out and were retracted apart from a vague generalization backed up by no evidence. Chrisrus (talk) 16:31, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
- The statement as it stands now is both true and verifiable. I don't think there is anything left to discuss. — Strongjam (talk) 14:52, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
- They might or might not be valid, but in this citation the only any evidence provided is also contradicted and retracted. What remains is a vague allegation with nothing to back it up. Chrisrus (talk) 14:42, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
- Miscommunication over one case. Her complaint about lack of action on all of the many threats and harassment against her are still valid. — Strongjam (talk) 14:21, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
- Now it says that she's expressed frustration, but the authorities have responded that her frustration is not founded and cited evidence, and she has apologetically backed off that assertion. Even if she still maintains face-saving wiggle room that she still thinks her cases have been mishandled by other authorities, she provides no evidence or reason for us to pass such allegations from her along to our readers. Just delete it as a non-event or mistake. Chrisrus (talk) 14:15, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
Nope. No reliable source has said this, for the very good reason that saying this might arguably be libel. this discussion is quite possibly libelous as well, as one editor appears to be accusing the subject of committing a crime for which she has been neither charged nor indicted, based on that editor'so personal interpretation of something or other MarkBernstein (talk) 21:32, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
- Reporting that someone made a mistaken accusation and retracted it is not accusing anyone of a crime.
- Don't take it from me, read arstechnica.com/business/2015/05/gamergate-critic-posts-death-threat-voicemail-after-inaction-by-prosecutor/ yourself and you will agree that it reports that certain allegations were made at the Mary Sue that did not check out and were retracted as a misunderstanding or miscommunication or mistake, apart from a vague generalization backed up by nothing. If you don't think that's just what arstechnica.com/business/2015/05/gamergate-critic-posts-death-threat-voicemail-after-inaction-by-prosecutor/ says, what then does it say?
- This article merely repeats this unfounded accusation and omits the fact that the specific allegations turned out to be not true and were retracted and apologized for, which is the main idea of the source. If we're going to include this source, we should not just cherry pick a vague accusation and ignore its main idea. It seems better to delete the whole thing, because it's just about something that we thought was real but wasn't so oops nevermind. Chrisrus (talk) 15:21, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
- Can you be more specific? Please quote from the article what unfounded accusation is repeated. — Strongjam (talk) 15:27, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
- "Wu has expressed her frustration over how law enforcement agencies have responded to the threats that her and other women in the game industry have received.[arstechnica.com/business/2015/05/gamergate-critic-posts-death-threat-voicemail-after-inaction-by-prosecutor/]" This misses the main idea of the source and repeats her accusation that the law enforcement agencies have been remiss in responding, a claim not backed up by evidence in this citation. Chrisrus (talk) 16:12, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
- Can you be more specific? Please quote from the article what unfounded accusation is repeated. — Strongjam (talk) 15:27, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
The House Appropriations Committee has just formally supported the call for enforcement of laws against online harassment and Gamergate: [[1]] [[2]. Let's drop this unproductive discussion and move on. MarkBernstein (talk) 15:57, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
- We're not questioning the source so contacting them would not be helpful. This source says she said the response of the authorities has been lacking because of claims to fact that she now says "oops sorry nevermind" about. Chrisrus (talk) 17:04, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
- Let's not focus on one a single tree and miss the whole forest. Take it to WP:RSN if you think the source does not back up the statement. — Strongjam (talk) 17:09, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
- The updated source still says she is frustrated in general about law enforcement's response to the situation; the detailed issue around the Columbus call was a mistaken choice of which agency to contact, and she apologized for her mistake once she got to the right one. But there's still her general sentimentes from her op-ed that in general, the lack of law enforcement actions on any of these harassment (not just hers) is frustrating. So the statement is fine with the update. --MASEM (t) 17:11, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
- You say we shouldn't ignore the forest and miss the trees, but that would mean providing a holistic summary of what this source contains instead instead of just providing one cherry-picked detail. The fact that she finds the response lacking is just an insignificant opinion without something in the source to indicate that she's right about that. Chrisrus (talk) 01:40, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
- No, her opinion in this case is not insignificant- it's pretty significant, so we include it. PeterTheFourth has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 03:01, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
- This citation is about some allegations that didn't check out. If we use it, we should say that.
- This citation is not about the fact that she says she still believes it's lacking anyway.
- Her saying that, even though none of this evidence checked out, is in this citation. But there is no evidence here that it is lacking. We have nothing here but unsubstantiated allegations.
- If we retain this source we should tell them what's in it: that she made some allegations that didn't check out and she apologized and retracted it but still thinks the response has been lacking.
- Or we dump this citation on "Citation Contains Retraction" grounds. As we say, "retraction is strong evidence of inaccuracy." Chrisrus (talk) 05:01, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
- Read Masem's above comment re: still frustrated. PeterTheFourth has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 05:21, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
- He's right: it says she still believes it anyway. That doesn't address my point: that's not a fair summary of the citation and misses the main point of the citation and amounts to us repeating a baseless allegation. Chrisrus (talk) 06:22, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
- Then change it. You can edit wikipedia pages, can't you? PeterTheFourth has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 06:33, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
- There's no requirements that when we use a source that we can only use the source's whole content in its entirety. We're summarizing, so using a single fact that is buried in a larger article from a reliable source is not a problem. Yes, it is likely the Mary Sue rant and the subsequent articles regarding that call and her initial failed attempt to get enforcement help would not have happened if she had contacted the proper department first, and we wouldn't have that "frustrated" statement. But it did happen, yet even after the article was updated, that factor still persisted, so its fair game for us to use and ignore the rest of the situation. (Remember, this is coming after the situation at PAX.) --MASEM (t) 12:29, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
- You're right, there is no obligation to always summarize a source. However, there is no obligation not to, especially if omitting the main point of a source amounts to passing along a baseless allegation, that's a problem.
- To say "Smith was angry that Jones did something wrong" is to pass along Smith's accusation against Jones, something we shouldn't do without proof and important reason to do so. Chrisrus (talk) 05:04, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
- So let's summarize the source holistically. Just that she made those accusations, but they turned out to be wrong, so she restracted them, but still nevertheless maintains that the response is lacking. Chrisrus (talk) 05:31, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
- No, you have events flipped. Prior to that Columbus call (the one she recorded and had the caller's number for evidence) , she reports she had been trying to get other law enforcement agencies to act on other threats she's gotten, but from that was frustrated with the lack of significant response (eg the PAX situation). Then this call happened, one that she was able to record and get a number for, making it something possibly more actionable than previous threats in terms of enforcement, called the Columbus agency (unaward she was calling the wrong department for those types of matters), got even more frustrated with this specific lack of response, and wrote her opinion for the Mary Sue. And then she was told she did have the wrong department and thus got to the right person. Her frustrations with all other previous attempts still exist and didn't change, what the updated article still presents. --MASEM (t) 14:32, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
- Masem is correct -- words I have seldom written! All news reports (including the world's top newspapers) agree that the subject has been exposed to vile harassment and that legal authorities have so far been unable or unwilling to prosecute the offenders. There is absolutely no doubt that the harassment is real or that it has been reported to authorities that range from local police officers to the U. S. Congress. MarkBernstein (talk) 15:32, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
- No, you have events flipped. Prior to that Columbus call (the one she recorded and had the caller's number for evidence) , she reports she had been trying to get other law enforcement agencies to act on other threats she's gotten, but from that was frustrated with the lack of significant response (eg the PAX situation). Then this call happened, one that she was able to record and get a number for, making it something possibly more actionable than previous threats in terms of enforcement, called the Columbus agency (unaward she was calling the wrong department for those types of matters), got even more frustrated with this specific lack of response, and wrote her opinion for the Mary Sue. And then she was told she did have the wrong department and thus got to the right person. Her frustrations with all other previous attempts still exist and didn't change, what the updated article still presents. --MASEM (t) 14:32, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
- He's right: it says she still believes it anyway. That doesn't address my point: that's not a fair summary of the citation and misses the main point of the citation and amounts to us repeating a baseless allegation. Chrisrus (talk) 06:22, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
- Read Masem's above comment re: still frustrated. PeterTheFourth has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 05:21, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
- No, her opinion in this case is not insignificant- it's pretty significant, so we include it. PeterTheFourth has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 03:01, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
- We're not questioning the source so contacting them would not be helpful. This source says she said the response of the authorities has been lacking because of claims to fact that she now says "oops sorry nevermind" about. Chrisrus (talk) 17:04, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
- Masem:
- You seem to be saying that:
- 1. She was frustrated because had been trying to get other law enforcement agencies to act on "other", less "actionable" threats, "in terms of enforcement" that she had previously gotten, prior to "the Columbus call".
- 2. Later she got the "Columbus call" which she recorded and got caller's number, making them more "actionable" in that way.
- 3. She rightly presented the Columbus Call Evidence to the proper authorities.
- 4. It was then that she then became "frustrated with the lack of significant response."
- 5. Then "this call" happened. She also a number for "this call", making it something also possibly more actionable by authorities.
- 6. She then called "the Columbus agency" who did not respond because it was not their job to respond or pass it on to the proper authorities, because she had the wrong department for those types of matters.
- 7. She then got even more frustrated with this new specific lack of response, and wrote her opinion for the Mary Sue.
- 8. She was then learned for the first time that she had had the wrong department and got to the right person, so she's not frustrated by the response to this call anymore.
- In short, she isn't saying she is frustrated by the response to the first, number-and-recording-less calls. She is not saying she is frustrated by the lack of response to "this call". She was only saying she was frustrated by the lack of significant response to "the Columbus call".
- This is what I understood you to be saying. Is that correct? Chrisrus (talk) 15:32, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
- There's only one call, what you're calling "this call" and "Columbus call" are one and the same. If you eliminate your points 3, 4, and 5, then you have the order of events that I see it as described by how the original articles read and the updated stories. And your point is missing what you have as point #1 - that all the previous calls and threats she's gotten and reported (though perhaps without having caller number or recording) had left her frustrated with the general enforcement authorities' responses. --MASEM (t) 15:40, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
- Thank you. You now seem to be saying that:
- First she got less actionable telephone threats. This fact is not in this citation, so, {{citation needed}}, if you would, but according to this citation, she was and still is frustrated with the inadequate response to these previous threats.
- Later, she got the "Columbus call", which was more actionable, because this time the number was captured and the call recorded. She then mistakenly provided this evidence to an unnamed agency, the wrong department. Not hearing back and not knowing why, she then got even more frustrated and so wrote a piece for the Mary Sue complaining about it.
- She then learned for the first time that she had had the wrong department and apologized but said but she's still frustrated about the previous lack of response to the earlier, less actionable calls.
- Is that correct? Chrisrus (talk) 05:01, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
- The Ars Tech article says she's been frustrated before but if you read her Mary Sue op-ed "For this, I’ve had over 100 death threats sent to me by the hate group known as Gamergate in the last nine months.[...] And yet, terrifyingly, nothing has been done." which is unmistakably clear. Otherwise that's correct. --MASEM (t) 05:08, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
- Ok, we've been talking just about phone calls. She's saying she is frustrated with the lax response by the proper authorities to "messages" she had received, which we can rightly assume means tweets and/or emails and such. Is this citation the first to establish this fact about her feelings about these messages? Chrisrus (talk) 18:31, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
- It's the Mary Sue source which ArsTech refers to. But to eliminate that being an issue, I have added that MAry Sue as a source to that same statement. --MASEM (t) 18:47, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
- We could cite that fact about how she feels to citations other than this one. Is that correct? Chrisrus (talk) 19:17, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
- No, the Mary Sue essay she wrote is the direct, immediate source. Ars Tech summarizes it, but as it begs where the citation is actually coming from, using the Mary Sue source directly removes any question of this. (It should be noted her essay was also updated to reflect the corrected department contact, but it still keeps her prior frustration). --MASEM (t) 20:06, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
- Unless we're going to tell the readers about this incident, I don't see what use this citation is to the article. How she feels about the response is found in other sources and not backed up by anything in this. Chrisrus (talk) 14:51, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
- At the end of the day, in talking about how GG is being handled by law enforcement, Wu's opinion on her general frustration with lack of enforcement response is completely appropriate. --MASEM (t) 15:08, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
- Has the enforcement response been lacking or not? If we phrase it like "Smith is frustrated that Jones was negligent", we express Smith's feelings as his opinion, but "that Jones was negligent" is presented as fact. If you say "Smith asserted that Jones was negligent", or maybe "Smith was frustrated at perceived negligence on Jones' part", that'd be different. Chrisrus (talk) 15:41, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
- We have presented this in the article as Wu's opinion that enforcement is lacking, so we are fine with that. We do state factually that to the best of anyone's knowledge no one has been arrested/etc. due to GG, but without additional comment. --MASEM (t) 23:52, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
- I regret now not telling the readers what this source says. People should know not just that she thinks the response is lacking, but, but also that she made and withdrew those accusations. It might be important for them to know this. Chrisrus (talk) 20:32, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
- Given that the Mary Sue and the Ars Tech articles were updated after she withdrew her accusation at the enforcement office but left in her general frustration with the lack of activity from law enforcement in general in the overall GG situation, she clearly didn't withdraw that complaint. So summarizing just this is fine. --MASEM (t) 20:44, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
- I regret now not telling the readers what this source says. People should know not just that she thinks the response is lacking, but, but also that she made and withdrew those accusations. It might be important for them to know this. Chrisrus (talk) 20:32, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
- We have presented this in the article as Wu's opinion that enforcement is lacking, so we are fine with that. We do state factually that to the best of anyone's knowledge no one has been arrested/etc. due to GG, but without additional comment. --MASEM (t) 23:52, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
- Has the enforcement response been lacking or not? If we phrase it like "Smith is frustrated that Jones was negligent", we express Smith's feelings as his opinion, but "that Jones was negligent" is presented as fact. If you say "Smith asserted that Jones was negligent", or maybe "Smith was frustrated at perceived negligence on Jones' part", that'd be different. Chrisrus (talk) 15:41, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
- At the end of the day, in talking about how GG is being handled by law enforcement, Wu's opinion on her general frustration with lack of enforcement response is completely appropriate. --MASEM (t) 15:08, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
- Unless we're going to tell the readers about this incident, I don't see what use this citation is to the article. How she feels about the response is found in other sources and not backed up by anything in this. Chrisrus (talk) 14:51, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
- No, the Mary Sue essay she wrote is the direct, immediate source. Ars Tech summarizes it, but as it begs where the citation is actually coming from, using the Mary Sue source directly removes any question of this. (It should be noted her essay was also updated to reflect the corrected department contact, but it still keeps her prior frustration). --MASEM (t) 20:06, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
- We could cite that fact about how she feels to citations other than this one. Is that correct? Chrisrus (talk) 19:17, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
- It's the Mary Sue source which ArsTech refers to. But to eliminate that being an issue, I have added that MAry Sue as a source to that same statement. --MASEM (t) 18:47, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
- Ok, we've been talking just about phone calls. She's saying she is frustrated with the lax response by the proper authorities to "messages" she had received, which we can rightly assume means tweets and/or emails and such. Is this citation the first to establish this fact about her feelings about these messages? Chrisrus (talk) 18:31, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
- The Ars Tech article says she's been frustrated before but if you read her Mary Sue op-ed "For this, I’ve had over 100 death threats sent to me by the hate group known as Gamergate in the last nine months.[...] And yet, terrifyingly, nothing has been done." which is unmistakably clear. Otherwise that's correct. --MASEM (t) 05:08, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
- There's only one call, what you're calling "this call" and "Columbus call" are one and the same. If you eliminate your points 3, 4, and 5, then you have the order of events that I see it as described by how the original articles read and the updated stories. And your point is missing what you have as point #1 - that all the previous calls and threats she's gotten and reported (though perhaps without having caller number or recording) had left her frustrated with the general enforcement authorities' responses. --MASEM (t) 15:40, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
By what standard? Objectively, none of these threats have been found to be credible and even the ones that have identified the threat maker have been passed off as not credible (i.e. the PAX "going for the kill" threat and the comedian that claimed to crash his Prius were both identified by police). Police prioritize cases and part of that is determining whether a threat is physically likely. Local domestic violence threats where they are likely to become real violence will have priority over anonymous threats on the internet. Threats by anonymous people are very rarely carried out and that is juxtaposed against threats by familiar people and prioritized accordingly. We also don't know how many threats Wu has reported or what the disposition was/is. Why didn't she know that she should be calling her local police department until the Columbus prosecutor told her? There is simply nothing to write about the police response except what has already been covered and nothing indicates that the response by law enforcement has been inadequate. Wu may be frustrated but it's the same level of frustration expressed by all victims of lower priority crimes (i.e. a $100 break-in theft from a car may feel very violating and personal. The police will take a report. Don't expect the CSI van to show up looking for DNA evidence, though.) --DHeyward (talk) 23:49, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
- The Boston Globe, Boston Magazine, and Rep. Katherine Clark are all unambiguous in reporting that Wu did report threats to her local police department. Kindly redact that mistake promptly. In addition, where crimes were apparently committed in other jurisdictions, as was the case in Ohio, Wu contacted authorities in that jurisdiction. End of story. None of these questions should be mentioned in the article; aside from another failed Gamergate PR initiative, there's no news here. MarkBernstein (talk) 03:28, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
- This isn't "prove the negative day." There is no objective view or source that enforcement is lacking. Masem is correct that we should be reporting it as Wu's opinion and one that has evolved especially since the Mary Sue article got the attention of the Columbus prosecutor. Also, its a novel view that the threat she received at her home or business wasn't a local crime. I have no doubt she reported threats including the one to the wrong people in Ohio. As far as I have read she has not made a complaint about local police. Is there a source for that? --DHeyward (talk) 04:02, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
- To wit, the namesake of this section updated the original story when it turned out there were errors made.
Before Wednesday's op-ed was published, Wu claims her outside legal counsel had e-mailed one FBI agent she had contacted in the past, along with Boston police, but she was unable to reproduce those e-mails for Ars Technica before the holiday weekend.
--DHeyward (talk) 06:12, 8 June 2015 (UTC)- That doesn't mean that those emails don't exist - just that she didn't get back to ArcTech in a timely manner. --MASEM (t) 14:13, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
- Correct and I didn't mean to imply that they don't exist. The (paraphrased) "my lawyer sent one email to an FBI agent she had contact with in the past" doesn't exactly inspire confidence or support "Radio Silence from the FBI." ARStechnica tone changed, too, in the update as instead of "raising new questions", they use terms like "claims" but that's a bit cyrstalballish. In the MarySue article, after learning that "her staff" didn't actually contact Ron O'Brien (the person she calls out by name multiple times), Wu tweets her supporters to stop harassing O'Brien
Everyone I’ve talked to there has been professional and very helpful. You don’t help my case if you attack them. These things happen.
What things? O'Brien did nothing wrong and it was an error on Wu's staff or attorney (she blamed both). She later said to the Mary Sue"It’s worth clarifying, my frustration is with law enforcement overall, not with the Ohio prosecutor’s office."
yet the Ohio prosecutor is the only one she bothered to call out by name. Maybe if she named her FBI contact or Boston PD contact or federal prosecutor, we could get to the heart of the frustration there as well, just as naming the Ohio prosecutor quickly identified the problem. It's somewhat disingenuous for us to write about her frustration without the Ohio backstory of where the frustration originated - it's why both the Mary sue and ARSTechnica added updates after all - I haven't seen anything since the last update where they were waiting for emails.. --DHeyward (talk) 17:13, 8 June 2015 (UTC)- I think it's clear that while the Ohio situation caused Wu to put her feelings to paper and without it we wouldn't have her "frustrated" opinion. But that said, this source from WaPost [3] just added by Strongjam to support Rep. Clark's bill reiterates the frustration about lack of any followup by any agency, without even mentioning the Ohio situation. And it's hard to ignore that we know Wu contacted Pax and local police and got nothing there. --MASEM (t) 19:09, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
- Correct and I didn't mean to imply that they don't exist. The (paraphrased) "my lawyer sent one email to an FBI agent she had contact with in the past" doesn't exactly inspire confidence or support "Radio Silence from the FBI." ARStechnica tone changed, too, in the update as instead of "raising new questions", they use terms like "claims" but that's a bit cyrstalballish. In the MarySue article, after learning that "her staff" didn't actually contact Ron O'Brien (the person she calls out by name multiple times), Wu tweets her supporters to stop harassing O'Brien
- That doesn't mean that those emails don't exist - just that she didn't get back to ArcTech in a timely manner. --MASEM (t) 14:13, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
Veering off-course/not a forum
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There is no question that crimes have been committed, and any passages above that insinuate otherwise are either mistaken (and should be corrected) or libelous (and should be rev-del'd). Issuing threats of harm to an individual, their family, or their property in order to persuade them to leave software development is clearly a criminal act; that the perpetrators remain, at present, either unknown or unidentified does not change the fact of the crime. That the crimes have been reported to appropriate police agencies is also amply reported. The question of the credibility of threats -- repeated endlessly above and in the archives by a few Gamergate accounts -- is relevant only for short-term police response and does not affect the underlying crime or mitigate its severity unless you wish to argue that no reasonable person could possibly find the threats to be frightening or disturbing. Since any number of excellent sources did find the threats disturbing, we can dismiss that line without further discussion. MarkBernstein (talk) 19:17, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
Lead is missing something very fundamental
The lead[6] is missing the hashtag #GamerGate and it's origin. I propose organizing the lead into three main parts:
- Sexism in videogame culture before the hashtag and August 2014 when the harassment wasn't connected.
- The hashtag created by Baldwin who alleged wrongdoing by journalists.
- The hashtag became a banner for anonymous harassment using doxxing, rape and death threats mainly involving Quinn, Sarkeesian and Wu - and gave a single name to all harassment in gaming
The hashtag creation is what galvanized the harassment into a single thing. Before that, harassment of Sarkeesian was seperate from Wu, Quinn, et al. The hashtag creation is the seminal event and the namesake of the controversy. I don't think we can leave it out of the lead despite "but journalism." --DHeyward (talk) 10:05, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
- No, we cannot (and will not) argue that Gamergate is not responsible for its threats against targeted women because some other people threatened women before Gamergate. No source consensus supports this innovative and highly original theory. MarkBernstein (talk) 10:25, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
- I do not support this proposed change to the lede, as I don't believe it's reflected in the article or the reliable sources we use. PeterTheFourth has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 11:43, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
- (slightly off-topic) I'd suggest that editors be especially careful of the article's tendency to ascribe actions to "the hashtag." A hashtag can’t rape, assault, or murder anyone. A hashtag can’t threaten anyone with dire consequences if they don’t quit their job or if they don’t give up their writing. Ascribing these actions to a hashtag is thus a convenient fig leaf for those people -- whoever they are -- who did so. (While we do not know who issued the threats, it is a truth universally acknowledged that the threats were made.) It’s also bad writing practice. MarkBernstein (talk) 14:33, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
- You have RS to support this kind of change? ForbiddenRocky (talk) 14:43, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
- Yes. Since it's a proposal at temporal ordering of events of "before," "creation", "after" , a calendar will suffice. --DHeyward (talk) 20:30, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
- Your second point is already wrong. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 09:12, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
- Yes. Since it's a proposal at temporal ordering of events of "before," "creation", "after" , a calendar will suffice. --DHeyward (talk) 20:30, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
- the above proposal fails WP:LEAD as an appropriate summary of the contents of the article/appropriate summary of what and how the reliable sources have covered the topic. Baldwin's coining of the term might merit mention in the lead on purely historical basis, but other than passing mentions "the term was first used by Baldwin..." the sources really do not pay any significant coverage or analysis on that specific incident. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:33, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)Very important to note- the second point is wrong. The hashtag was created by Baldwin when he was referring to one of Internet Atheist's Quinnspiracy videos. So, not really about 'ethics in journalism' after all. PeterTheFourth has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 15:43, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
Baldwin critiqued the media for trying to "enforce arbitrary 'social justice' rules upon gamers & the culture" and described the events that followed as "a skirmish in the long culture war".
straight from our article. The important point and moment was that it became the tag/cause associated with harassment and threats. Prior to that, there was no connections. After that, "gamergate" was used for virtually all threats. It gave a name to theats against women in gaming when before it was topical. Prior, Sarkeesian fighting tropes in gaming and Quinn fighting radical feminism in game jam were not similar. After, they are all galvanized under the name "gamergate." --DHeyward (talk) 19:44, 6 June 2015 (UTC)- Yeah, that's not even close to "
alleged wrongdoing by journalists
" — Strongjam (talk) 20:13, 6 June 2015 (UTC)- Yes, it is. Journalists consider it an accusation of unethical behavior. But it's the structure that I'm proposing. Word choice is not particularly germane. --DHeyward (talk) 20:35, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
- No reputable organization has taken that position. We'd need a source to summarize as such, otherwise we risk putting words in Baldwin's mouth and run afoul of BLP policy. The actually naming of the controversy is hardly covered at all in our sources, and mostly it seems like this would give it undue weight. — Strongjam (talk) 00:04, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
- The wording at its genesys is not particularly important. We don't have hardly any sources that refer to it as "GamerGate controversy" yet it's an apt, descriptive summary. It's notability is derived from various sources alleging various things that it represents. One thing that is overarching, though, is that it galvanized a number of disparate elements into one point of interaction. It's still the rallying point for so-called "gamergate" and "anti-gamergate" elements that, previous to the phrase, were not identifiable as two opposing factions and didn't clash on a clean boundary. That's apparent in how gaming culture is now portrayed in all of our sources. The term framed the debate. --DHeyward (talk) 00:45, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
- I'd argue that we're not talking about its wording at its genesis, but its description in reliable sources full stop. None of them seem to take this peculiar position you do. PeterTheFourth has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 02:03, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
- I dont see any sources talking about "galvanizing" - in fact the sources cover it the opposite way: after the harassment became noticed there was a mad scramble to the four corners of the earth to try to find some some cover to hide behind "we are ethics in journalism" "we are against social justice warriors" "we are revolting consumers" "we are objective reviews" "we are people of color who dont care that video games are all [elite Caucasians]" . That's not galvanization. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 02:53, 7 June 2015 (UTC) (previous comment edited per request) -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 11:05, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
- They do in the sense that what was once a multi-faceted issue involving sexism in gaming culture that had various components: female tropes, sexism in game development, sexism in game play, LGBT discrimination, etc, etc - after "gamergate" it all became "gamergate/anti-gamergate." That's in all of our sources. Nobody "scattered" or it wouldn't be 10 months old. PtF's point about the overall description is accurate but the elements of gamergate existed prior to gamergate terms without cohesion. The sexism issues facing Wu, Quinn and Sarkeesian were not necessarily treated as a single issue. After genesys, all the recipients of threats became a single entity - bonded by their shared experience of threats under a single banner. It didn't matter that before gamergate, they were treated as different issues - gamergate unified them. We certainly have sources that discuss Wu's company addressing tropes and Sarkeesian addressing other sexism/feminist/discrimination issues besides tropes after "gamergate" galvanized them. Even the evolution of "quinnspiracy" to "gamergate" illustrates how these groups aligned and galvanized into very simple sides. --DHeyward (talk) 04:50, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
- wait wait - i thought it was all ethics? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 11:02, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
- Ah yes, it's all about sides. The side that makes death threats to women because they want to be able to speak, and the side that thinks that's not okay. I mean, it's all just politics right? PeterTheFourth has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 05:07, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what you're babbling about but it's not about anything I wrote. Would you like to comment on the differences in video game culture pre- and post- GamerGate genesys in August 2014? --DHeyward (talk) 09:07, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
- Dude, seriously, it's spelt genesis. PeterTheFourth has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 09:12, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what you're babbling about but it's not about anything I wrote. Would you like to comment on the differences in video game culture pre- and post- GamerGate genesys in August 2014? --DHeyward (talk) 09:07, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
- They do in the sense that what was once a multi-faceted issue involving sexism in gaming culture that had various components: female tropes, sexism in game development, sexism in game play, LGBT discrimination, etc, etc - after "gamergate" it all became "gamergate/anti-gamergate." That's in all of our sources. Nobody "scattered" or it wouldn't be 10 months old. PtF's point about the overall description is accurate but the elements of gamergate existed prior to gamergate terms without cohesion. The sexism issues facing Wu, Quinn and Sarkeesian were not necessarily treated as a single issue. After genesys, all the recipients of threats became a single entity - bonded by their shared experience of threats under a single banner. It didn't matter that before gamergate, they were treated as different issues - gamergate unified them. We certainly have sources that discuss Wu's company addressing tropes and Sarkeesian addressing other sexism/feminist/discrimination issues besides tropes after "gamergate" galvanized them. Even the evolution of "quinnspiracy" to "gamergate" illustrates how these groups aligned and galvanized into very simple sides. --DHeyward (talk) 04:50, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
- I dont see any sources talking about "galvanizing" - in fact the sources cover it the opposite way: after the harassment became noticed there was a mad scramble to the four corners of the earth to try to find some some cover to hide behind "we are ethics in journalism" "we are against social justice warriors" "we are revolting consumers" "we are objective reviews" "we are people of color who dont care that video games are all [elite Caucasians]" . That's not galvanization. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 02:53, 7 June 2015 (UTC) (previous comment edited per request) -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 11:05, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
- Let's remember that Adam Baldwin is an expert in (a particular province of) character acting. He's not an authority on contemporary journalistic practice, and as it happens we do have authorities -- CJR -- on contemporary journalistic practice. This proposal has scant merit and scant support. MarkBernstein (talk) 03:34, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
- We aren't debating whether he was right or wrong or taking sides. Just the timing and genesys of what is now a 10 month old controversy that is known by the name Baldwin gave it and alignments that take labels like "pro-gamergate" and "anti-gamergate". --DHeyward (talk) 04:50, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
- However, there seems to be some injection of SYNTH meaning attempted here, and that is being opposed. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 09:14, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
- You think I synthed a number into the calendar? --DHeyward (talk) 11:28, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
- I synthed a date into the calendar?
- A date? That's unlikely. More likely significance upon that date. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 15:22, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
- Charles Darwin and Abraham Lincoln were born on the same date. That fact alone is not synthesis; attempting to link Darwin and Lincoln via that fact to anything else, is and persistence in the face of that led to consequences. --Calton | Talk 15:48, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
- A date? That's unlikely. More likely significance upon that date. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 15:22, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
- However, there seems to be some injection of SYNTH meaning attempted here, and that is being opposed. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 09:14, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
- We aren't debating whether he was right or wrong or taking sides. Just the timing and genesys of what is now a 10 month old controversy that is known by the name Baldwin gave it and alignments that take labels like "pro-gamergate" and "anti-gamergate". --DHeyward (talk) 04:50, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
- I'd argue that we're not talking about its wording at its genesis, but its description in reliable sources full stop. None of them seem to take this peculiar position you do. PeterTheFourth has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 02:03, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
- The wording at its genesys is not particularly important. We don't have hardly any sources that refer to it as "GamerGate controversy" yet it's an apt, descriptive summary. It's notability is derived from various sources alleging various things that it represents. One thing that is overarching, though, is that it galvanized a number of disparate elements into one point of interaction. It's still the rallying point for so-called "gamergate" and "anti-gamergate" elements that, previous to the phrase, were not identifiable as two opposing factions and didn't clash on a clean boundary. That's apparent in how gaming culture is now portrayed in all of our sources. The term framed the debate. --DHeyward (talk) 00:45, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
- No reputable organization has taken that position. We'd need a source to summarize as such, otherwise we risk putting words in Baldwin's mouth and run afoul of BLP policy. The actually naming of the controversy is hardly covered at all in our sources, and mostly it seems like this would give it undue weight. — Strongjam (talk) 00:04, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, it is. Journalists consider it an accusation of unethical behavior. But it's the structure that I'm proposing. Word choice is not particularly germane. --DHeyward (talk) 20:35, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
- Yeah, that's not even close to "
Unproductive WP:NOTAFORUM/soapboxing closed per general agreement |
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I cannot support any changes to the lead. I think it is perfect as-is. Besides, if you read the archives we've probably discussed this before, and we are not allowed to discuss things more than once per the five pillar policy WP:DEADHORSE. I don't believe we should attempt to define the "Gamergate" group or describe its origin or stated goals in the lead. In fact, we shouldn't discuss the group at all, other than to vaguely assert that they are comprised primarily of men who are in favor of harassment, doxing, and misogyny. It's our job to focus on the word "controversy," not the word "Gamergate," because readers do not come to the Gamergate controversy article to try to understand the history and context of the Gamergate controversy. They come here to be outraged at the horrible sexism and harassment perpetrated by Gamergate. I would recommend an involved non-admin editor immediately close this section because nothing has ever been achieved through discussion, and talk pages should have a maximum of 37 pages. At the very least this comment should be hatted because of WP:FORUM or WP:POINT, or, I don't know, I'm sure you can find something in WP:BLP. ColorOfSuffering (talk) 20:01, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
I thought we'd promised to stop this after WT:NPOV. So much for that. Wikipedia does not, in its majesty, treat fringe science and real science as if they were equivalent. Similarly, we do not approach a group of anonymous misogynist harassers and their targets with even-handed detachment. "Teaching the controversy," is, of course, far from an academic attitude -- and "watching for data that has not been observed but that we hope will appear" is hardly a scientific approach! As for the motivation of the people sending rape and death threats, we can hardly know that until they confess -- and even then, we may have reason to doubt their word. What else could possibly inform Wikipedia? But yes, Masem, if you discover such a confession published in reliable sources, with a credible motivation attributed to a specific Gamergate agent, then I expect we'll all be delighted to find space for it in the article. MarkBernstein (talk) 21:44, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
Enough nonsense: Is there a specific item in the article that someone thinks should be changed? or can this be closed as yet another rant attempting the futile task of trying to convince experienced editors that we shouldnt follow the sources as printed? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 00:46, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
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<title redacted> (essentially a call for collaboration on removing inappropriate comments and content)
thread veered off into yet more unproductive sniping. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:52, 9 June 2015 (UTC) |
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Some frequent editors of this page have asserted that they are privy to the inner thoughts and motivations of Gamergate and have perspective on what Gamergate really wants. If this is true, it would be greatly appreciated if those editors would kindly pass the word that the constant incursions of brigaded newbie editors is tiresome and unproductive. Just today, we've had a baby edit war here with an editor who doesn't pass the 30/500 qualification, and another attempt by a new editor to use Wikipedia to talk about Brianna Wu’s sex life on her page (by now, I trust, revdel'd). Even if you're a great Gamergate fan, this is simply annoying and tiring your colleagues without prospect of any benefit to the encyclopedia, or any legitimate benefit to Gamergate. It's been going on constantly for months on end. If you were going to achieve a favorable consensus, you would have done so, and if your critics were going to grow too tired to detect and remove the BLP violations, that too would have happened by now. Nothing is being achieved beyond the waste of time and effort that could more profitably be applied to other things. What last year might have been a content dispute is now mere spite. Some of your fellow editors have important commitments and meaningful work to do. These efforts are not doing Gamergate any good, they do not benefit the encyclopedia, and they waste our time. If you really do have the connections of which you boast, would you kindly use them to stop this? MarkBernstein (talk) 19:48, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
Masem, do you think the biweekly incursion of the "I am neutral and this article is not covering the subject neutrally." post is beneficial to the project? If so how? If not, Based Masem making a clear statement that "Guys, all you are doing is making yourselves into disruptive idiots" would go a long way to, if not stopping the biweekly incursion of sea lions, establishing your good faith as someone who is not actively enabling the pointless disruption. Although I do understand that making such a statement would turn you from a GG favorite into someone they consider a legitimate target for their next "operation" and understand why you might consider such an act something that you would not want to do. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:41, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
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Natalie Zed
http://www.vocativ.com/tech/internet/gamergate-newest-nemesis-phd-student-natalie-zed/ ForbiddenRocky (talk) 06:25, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
These Women Are Using Industry Discrimination To Change Tech
What's the RS status of thinkprogress.org? ForbiddenRocky (talk) 08:31, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
- Thanks. I did a quick check on thinkprogress in the GGC references and didn't see anything. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 16:05, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
My awful life inspired Law & Order, Gamergate dev says
http://www.cultofmac.com/325789/brianna-wu-gamergate-inspires-law-order/ Another one I'm not sure about RS. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 05:05, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
GamerGate's latest target is the most uplifting gaming documentary yet
http://www.pcauthority.com.au/Feature/405118,gamergates-latest-target-is-the-most-uplifting-gaming-documentary-yet.aspx ForbiddenRocky (talk) 05:07, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
Coke vs Pepsi
another repetitive thread without any realistic prospect of a consensus for change. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:46, 11 June 2015 (UTC) |
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I'd like to use an analogy to demonstrate this point. Please bare with me for a moment. Say there is a controversy about whether Coke is better than Pepsi. And we created an article about it. The lede was two paragraphs. The first explaining why people feel Coke is better. The second explaining why people feel Pepsi is better. The only difference being that at the end of the paragraph explaining why Pepsi is better, a long sentence is added explaining how 9 different reputable publications feel that the claims that Pepsi is better are inaccurate. There is no sentence like this in the Coke paragraph. It is my opinion such a lede would not be neutral -- and it would be biased for Coke. This is exactly how this lede is worded. As such, it is my opinion that the last sentence of the second paragraph of the lede should be removed. Handpolk (talk) 06:00, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
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Quick revert comment
On this revert I did [9] , I will note that the validity of these sources have been discussed on this talk page before, even if they aren't the highest RSes. Also, the removal of them was stated because they were duplicative, but duplicate sources are not a bad thing; in one case, the original Mary Sue article written by Wu was removed in favor of the Ars Tech article that summarized her comments, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with including both. --MASEM (t) 21:49, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
- Has the reliablity of APGNation been discussed before? PeterTheFourth has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 21:56, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
- The archive search shows it coming up several times, primarily because it is an interview with TFYC, and less trying to be a "factual" aspect. --MASEM (t) 22:09, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
- To add, I'm not saying we can't rediscuss the reliability of these sources, but before they are removed from the article, that should be rechecked for each of the sources in question. --MASEM (t) 22:11, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
- If I remember correctly APGN is not considered an RS yet due to the lack of journalistic experience within the editorial team. But the article in question (an interview with Matthew Rappard of TFYC) can be used to source TFYC's opinions on stuff and whatnot.Bosstopher (talk) 21:46, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
Phil Fish
I couldn't find any discussion about this in the archives. The article currently reads: "Among those singled out was fellow video game developer Phil Fish, who was hacked and doxed after he defended Quinn and referred to those attacking and harassing her as 'ball-less manboobs' and 'essentially rapists'; Paste magazine said that these 'were fairly common statements from the combative [Fish].'" Here are the references used: [10][11][12][13][14][15]. The references generally agree that Phil Fish was hacked after defending Zoe Quinn, but none of the contemporary articles ascribe the attack to Gamergate, probably because the name Gamergate was not attached to the movement until several days after Fish left the industry. Can we retroactively assign blame to a group that didn't even exist at that point? There were no "Gamergate supporters" when Fish was hacked. The Phil Fish incident might be more appropriate for the Phil Fish, Zoe Quinn, or 4chan articles, but unless there is a reliable source that clearly links the Gamergate movement to the hacking incident (the current articles do not) then I don't see a justification as to why it should be included. Either that, or we should rewrite the paragraph to clarify that the hacks occurred before Gamergate had a name, perhaps as part of the "background" to the creation of Gamergate. 4chan ≠ Gamergate, and Gamergate was not the sole perpetrator of harassment targeted at Zoe Quinn. ColorOfSuffering (talk) 00:15, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
- Paragraph should probably be split up. The bit about Fish moved up a paragraph or two, and the bit explaining the use of "white knight" and "SJW" somewhere else. — Strongjam (talk) 00:51, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
- Agreed. It's fairly obvious the harassment/hacking is related, but the timeline is a bit off. I'm done editing for the day, but if someone else wants to take a shot at it then be my guest. ColorOfSuffering (talk) 01:02, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
- I am pretty confident that there is zero OR to take, for example, "Fez developer Polytron hacked in ongoing game developer harassment effort" from Kotaku on Aug 22 to consider Fish's harassment part of GG even though the term hadn't been developed. In the hacked info from Polytron, the hackers used a term associated with Quinn specifically coming from Gjoni's post (no need to repeat here). And while Fish might have existed before GG started, his connection to trying to defend Quinn after Gjoni's post is still a sign of what the harassment became. --MASEM (t) 01:33, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
"virulent and often misogynistic harassment campaign"
This thread has become nothing but people namecalling and flinging insults at eachother under the thin pretense of improving an encyclopedia article. So I'm going to be bold hat this section, and create a new one below where the same topic can be discussed (lest I be accused of censorship). Comment on content, not on the contributor. If you have issues with the perceived behavior of another editor/group of editors, please bring it to WP:AE instead.Bosstopher (talk) 22:06, 12 June 2015 (UTC) |
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From the history section "After the blog post, Quinn and her family were subjected to a virulent and often misogynistic harassment campaign. Commentators both in and outside the video game industry condemned the unfounded attacks against Quinn" -- "virulent and often misogynistic harassment campaign" is not anywhere in the sources. The word virulent never appears and the word misogynistic does not appear in this context. With enough written about this in the sources, I think we can reasonably ask for editors to not be phrasing things in their own words and just stick to what is in the sources, no? Handpolk (talk) 09:23, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
This has been resolved to my satisfaction with the new sources. "misogynistic" is not directly stated in that way but it was used twice generally in a way that is close enough for me. Thank you Future_Perfect_at_Sunrise for not following through on your threat of hatting this discussion before we could improve the encyclopedia. And thank you TRPoD for finding sources to verify that sentence. Handpolk (talk) 12:52, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
We are asked (again and again) to discuss the word "virulent" by perfectly neutral people of good faith who just happen to ask about this at frequent intervals, and who are (of course) completely unaware of the boards urging precisely this sort of time-wasting and repetitious stonewalling, and who have not troubled to review the archives or even to read the references. It's so much easier to suggest that a former editor of the Columbia Journalism Review plagiarized a newspaper in the New York Review of Books. We've got the word "virulent" itself (so far) in The Washington Post, Wired [16], and The New York Review Of Books. You know this. So what can you mean when you write “if at the end of the day there was only one source that used the word virulent? ” In case we want to delve further, here is some more “virulence” in Gamergate: Journal Of Gender, Race, and Justice, Feministing, Slice, Geek Feminism, Vox, The Guardian Online, Daily Dot, Forbes. Is that enough for you? Would you like more? Come now. Assume Good Faith is not a suicide pact. Why are you all continuing to waste the valuable time of your colleagues and the patience of the project? MarkBernstein (talk) 17:17, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
Four times today MarkBernstein has accused me of being a gamergate supporter here to disrupt Wikipedia. When I warned him to stop, he called me a troll. This is unacceptable. Can somebody please tell me where do I report his behavior or whom do I report it to? Handpolk (talk) 17:34, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
We began with the (repetitive, vexatious, but completely neutral) complaint that "virulent" and "misogynistic" were insufficiently sourced. We immediate (re)located The New York Review of Books, The Washington Post, and Wired. The editor who always joins these discussions to argue the same points argues here -- with some novelty, I admit! -- that (a) if an adjective is used by use precisely as in the sources, it must be in a quotation" or (b) if the modified noun is not precisely identical, or the construction varies one jot, summarizing the clear sense of the text is improper and we cannot use the adjective at all. And of course, we could not use any other adjective, either! Three options are laid before us.
Frankly, I think our choice is obvious, though I doubt my esteemed and very neutral colleague will agree. MarkBernstein (talk) 19:02, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
The administrator who told you “that’s called writing, that’s what we do here” represents the overwhelming consensus of WIkipedia's best editors. Wikipedia is not Zagat’s or Bartlett’s; we summarize the sources accurately, dispassionately, and with due regard for the opinions of mankind, choosing our words and phrases to convey meaning concisely and accurately to our readers. But thanks for the fish! MarkBernstein (talk) 19:46, 12 June 2015 (UTC) |
"virulent and often misogynistic harassment campaign" Take 2
So do people think this is an accurate representation of the sources? I think its a fair enough summation.Bosstopher (talk) 22:06, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
- As long as we are including two or more sources immediately afterward that use that wording exactly to refer to the harassment (which we have, it is not that it doesn't exist, just not added as a ref to that sentence yet) then yes. --MASEM (t) 22:18, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
- So basically if those sources are added the problem is solved and everyone is in agreement about the actual content of the article, even if in disagreement about the theory behind it?Bosstopher (talk) 22:21, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
- The sources clearly characterize the harassment as virulent and misogynistic. Other adjectives could be added, but perhaps they can be reserved for use elsewhere in the article. "Toxic" seems well represented in the sources, for example. Since so many “new” and “completely neutral” editors repeatedly arrive to “question” this topic, it might be a service if we included a sampling of the threats -- perhaps in this case setting them off in a quote box because the whole point here is to call attention to them. The quotes from The New Yorker, Boston Magazine, and the Washington Post would be reasonable places to start. MarkBernstein (talk) 22:27, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
- That would be a violation of soapboxing. Yes, GG harassment has been seen as bad, over and over again, we have that sourced. There is no need to add more fuel to that fire just because you can source how its described 20 different ways. It is only that we should be making sure that in summarizing the condemnation that commonly used contentious words are given inline sources so that it does not appear that WP is creating that contention. --MASEM (t) 22:39, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
- There used to be a blockquote in the article but it was removed by User:Rhoark back in January with the argument "Block quotation should be used for readability, not emphasis". In my opinion plastering extreme threats of violence and rape over the article in block quotes would be innapropriate. While Wikipedia is WP:NOTCENSORED, I don't think we should make the article overly violent and explicit in tone and make it more distressing to read. It also feels to me slightly exploitative of the harassment that the people in question have suffered through. See for example Murder of Junko Furuta, where a conscious editorial choice has been made to keep the minimal amount of gory details in the article. I think it would be more tasteful to follow that style, while obviously not ignoring the real damage done by the harassment. Bosstopher (talk) 22:50, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
- To be precise, I replaced the block quote with a standard inline quote. I could not find any specific policy governing such a case, but I have never seen any precedent for highlighting a quote in such a massive font, and the MOS did not mention the use of quotation templates for such a purpose. It is my opinion that the quote does not belong in the article at all, but it was obviously prudent to approach the matter incrementally. Its inclusion is clearly for the purpose of editorializing, and it is not consistent with WP:AVOIDVICTIM. With regard to the question that started this thread, "virulent and often misogynistic harassment campaign" is an accurate paraphrase of what a lot of the sources say. It is, however, editorializing and peacock language not suitable for use in Wikipedia's voice. Rhoark (talk) 00:05, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
- Not WP:PEACOCK. It's merely descriptive of the type of harassment. — Strongjam (talk) 00:37, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
- It is a grandiose description of the type of harassment. A statement in encyclopedic tone would be along the lines of, "After the blog post, Quinn and her family received numerous threatening or slanderous messages by phone and social media. Commentators have called this a coordinated misogynist campaign." -> segue into discussion of all PoVs about 4chan logs. Rhoark (talk) 00:57, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
- Not WP:PEACOCK. It's merely descriptive of the type of harassment. — Strongjam (talk) 00:37, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
- To be precise, I replaced the block quote with a standard inline quote. I could not find any specific policy governing such a case, but I have never seen any precedent for highlighting a quote in such a massive font, and the MOS did not mention the use of quotation templates for such a purpose. It is my opinion that the quote does not belong in the article at all, but it was obviously prudent to approach the matter incrementally. Its inclusion is clearly for the purpose of editorializing, and it is not consistent with WP:AVOIDVICTIM. With regard to the question that started this thread, "virulent and often misogynistic harassment campaign" is an accurate paraphrase of what a lot of the sources say. It is, however, editorializing and peacock language not suitable for use in Wikipedia's voice. Rhoark (talk) 00:05, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
- There used to be a blockquote in the article but it was removed by User:Rhoark back in January with the argument "Block quotation should be used for readability, not emphasis". In my opinion plastering extreme threats of violence and rape over the article in block quotes would be innapropriate. While Wikipedia is WP:NOTCENSORED, I don't think we should make the article overly violent and explicit in tone and make it more distressing to read. It also feels to me slightly exploitative of the harassment that the people in question have suffered through. See for example Murder of Junko Furuta, where a conscious editorial choice has been made to keep the minimal amount of gory details in the article. I think it would be more tasteful to follow that style, while obviously not ignoring the real damage done by the harassment. Bosstopher (talk) 22:50, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
- Well, we want to be very careful to reflect the consensus of the best and most reliable sources; if the sources report vivid and violent detail of repellent harassment, it is not our place to hide that from our readers. We want to be sure to get it right -- that's why we keep discussing this over and over and over again. Are only “new” and “completely neutral” editors who have arrive here from Gamergate basements permitted to raise questions? If we're going to ask whether the article reflect the preponderance of the reliable sources, I think there's a very good chance that the current text does not -- that it errs in excusing or explaining Gamergate harassment tactics in ways that the best and most reliable sources carefully avoid. MarkBernstein (talk) 22:54, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
- We should be very careful to reflect every consensus of every reliable source, in appropriately proportional space. This is one of the five pillars, and not optional. It is not our place to hide any views from readers, nor anoint any as more correct than another, preponderant or not. Rhoark (talk) 00:29, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
- That would be a violation of soapboxing. Yes, GG harassment has been seen as bad, over and over again, we have that sourced. There is no need to add more fuel to that fire just because you can source how its described 20 different ways. It is only that we should be making sure that in summarizing the condemnation that commonly used contentious words are given inline sources so that it does not appear that WP is creating that contention. --MASEM (t) 22:39, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
- I do want to alert my fellow editors to a fairly new twist we saw today. First, editors arrive to "clean up" the article by "removing unneeded references" to avoid WP:COATRACK. Then, some time later, "completely neutral" and "new" editors challenge the text as unreferenced, and claim that the text is unsupported by the sources. This claim was
a lie, regrettably, untrue; TRPoD found one source in minutes, Masem (thanks!) found another, and while we were speculating about potential plagiarism on the part of a former senior editor at CJR, a dug up a half dozen more. Net result: a lot of people wasted a good deal of time rehashing a question that has been thoroughly settled, PLUS the clever idea: one editor removes the references, and then the other editor separately removes the text because now it has no references. MarkBernstein (talk) 22:54, 12 June 2015 (UTC)- I remind you of your duty to assume good faith. Where it relates to me, your accusations are completely without merit. At this stage, you are the one wasting everybody's time. We are very near resolution here. Let's finish up and move on. Handpolk (talk) 00:27, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
- We begin with an assumption of good faith that editors are here to improve the encyclopedia. We are not obligated to ignore evidence to the contrary. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom
- I remind you of your duty to assume good faith. Where it relates to me, your accusations are completely without merit. At this stage, you are the one wasting everybody's time. We are very near resolution here. Let's finish up and move on. Handpolk (talk) 00:27, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
- I do want to alert my fellow editors to a fairly new twist we saw today. First, editors arrive to "clean up" the article by "removing unneeded references" to avoid WP:COATRACK. Then, some time later, "completely neutral" and "new" editors challenge the text as unreferenced, and claim that the text is unsupported by the sources. This claim was
What reliable sources say
That's a phrase that gets bandied about a lot, but I think as the months run on the memories of what actually was said have dimmed, and people have begun to project their assumptions. A refresher is due. There are a lot of minor points with a broad spectrum of positions, so for now I'll just focus on two questions. First, what is GamerGate? Second (in service of the section directly above), what was the nature of the harassment Quinn received right after the zoepost?
- New York Times "Feminist Critics of Video Games Facing Threats in ‘GamerGate’ Campaign" [17]
- What is GamerGate? "a broader movement that has rallied around the Twitter hashtag #GamerGate, a term adopted by those who see ethical problems among game journalists and political correctness in their coverage. The more extreme threats [...] seem to be the work of a much smaller faction and aimed at women."
- Zoe Harassment "threats of violence"
- Polygon "On GamerGate: A letter from the editor" [18]
- What is GamerGate? "this wave of hatred but also its complementary "movement," focused ostensibly on ethics in game journalism"
- Zoe Harassment [not described in order to minimize harm]
- Polygon "GamerGate is an ugly mess, but this picture of it is beautiful" [19]
- What is GamerGate? "The GamerGate movement and Twitter hashtag is a social campaign defined by most supporters as a call to effect change in video game journalism and to defend the "gamer" identity. The movement is difficult to define because what it has come to represent has no central leadership or agreed-upon manifesto."
- Zoe Harassment "ongoing and well-established harassment"
- The Washington Post "The only guide to Gamergate you will ever need to read" [20]
- What is GamerGate? "Whatever Gamergate may have started as, it is now an Internet culture war. On one side are independent game-makers and critics, many of them women, who advocate for greater inclusion in gaming. On the other side of the equation are a motley alliance of vitriolic naysayers: misogynists, anti-feminists, trolls, people convinced they’re being manipulated by a left-leaning and/or corrupt press, and traditionalists who just don’t want their games to change."
- Zoe Harassment "death and rape threats so specific, so actionable, that she fled her house and called the cops"
- The Washington Post "Inside Gamergate’s (successful) attack on the media" [21]
- What is GamerGate? "GamerGate has come to represent a lot of different things to a lot of different people. But to a core group of astoundingly fervent supporters, the ongoing saga has never been about women, or harassment, or even video games. It’s about fighting what they see as a massive, progressive conspiracy among female game developers, feminists and sympathetic, left-leaning media outlets"
- Zoe Harassment [not in the scope of the article]
- Ars Technica "Chat logs show how 4chan users created #GamerGate controversy" [22]
- What is GamerGate? "a hashtag that became a breeding ground for all kinds of conspiracy theories surrounding the "corrupt" systems that allowed Quinn and Sarkeesian to figure in the industry as they do. As the hashtag spread, spectators got increasingly drawn into arguments about the ethics governing relationships between game developers and the gaming press."
- Zoe Harassment "Quinn soon had her accounts hacked and her personal information stolen (experiences she was accused of fabricating)"
- Nieman Reports "What GamerGate Can Teach Journalists About Handling Twitter Storms" [23]
- What is GamerGate? "an honest attempt to expose the cozy relationship between the video games industry and the reporters who cover it—or simply an excuse to harass women on the Internet? [...] It's details are complex and convoluted."
- Zoe Harassment "death threats against Quinn"
- Game Informer "GamerGate's Origins And What It Is Now" [24]
- What is GamerGate? "hate group"
- Zoe Harassment "waves of hatred were spewed at Zoe Quinn over social media, culminating in the posting of her personal information online"
- Slate "Letter to a Young Male Gamer" [25]
- What is GamerGate? [article predates the term]
- Zoe Harassment "trolling Quinn, harassing and threatening her, hacking her accounts, even calling her home and circulating nude pictures of her"
- CinemaBlend "GamerGate: Everyone Hates Each Other And I'm Really Tired" [26]
- What is GamerGate? "arguments about misogyny, professional responsibility, privacy, the direction of the gaming industry and copyright"
- Zoe Harassment "harassment by a small, vocal group"
- TechCrunch "The #Gamergate Question" [27]
- What is GamerGate? "a reactionary movement on Twitter largely in response to what gamers perceive as an attack on them and the corruption of their media"
- Zoe Harassment "a torrent of abuse and more abuse"
- TechCrunch "#GamerGate – An Issue With Two Sides" [28]
- What is GamerGate? "a warning of the perils of unaccountable and secretive moderation systems"
- Zoe Harassment [not mentioned]
- Spiked Online "#Gamergate: we must fight for the right to fantasise" [29]
- What is GamerGate? "[gamers] refusing to cave in to the Culture War being waged against them and their favourite pastime"
- Zoe Harassment [not mentioned]
- Al Jazeera America "GamerGate: How the video game industry's culture war began" [30]
- What is GamerGate? "Originally created by gamers concerned with what they saw as an overly cozy relationship between the game developers and the gaming media, #GamerGate became associated in the media with the worst of online harassment of women."
- Zoe Harassment [not mentioned]
- New York Magazine "Gamergate Should Stop Lying to Journalists — and Itself" [31]
- What is GamerGate? "anger at progressive people who care about feminism and transgender rights and mental health and whatever else is getting involved in gaming, and by what gamergaters see as overly solicitous coverage of said individuals and their games"
- Zoe Harassment "Quinn was receiving hate"
- NPR "#Gamergate Controversy Fuels Debate On Women And Video Games" [32]
- What is GamerGate? "#Gamergate is about two key things: ethics in video game journalism, and the role and treatment of women in the video game industry"
- Zoe Harassment "Quinn was soon flooded with death threats and rape threats. Her personal information, even photos, were hacked and posted online, forcing her to leave her home."
- CNN "Behind the furor over #Gamergate" [33]
- What is GamerGate? "a heated debate over journalistic integrity, the definition of video games and the identity of those who play them"
- Zoe Harassment "both Quinn and Sarkeesian found themselves subject to violent online threats"
- Columbia Journalism Review "How do we know what we know about #Gamergate?" [34]
- What is GamerGate? "At core, the movement is a classic culture war. Video games are becoming more sophisticated and appeal to a greater diversity of people. Naturally, debates about what is a legitimate game, who gets to be a gamer, and which critics get to define those terms arise"
- Zoe Harassment "had their addresses posted online along with death and rape threats"
- Crave Online "Gamergate and the Continued Backlash Against “Outrage Culture”" [35]
- What is GamerGate? "Gamergate now represents a growing mindset that progressiveness is stifling free speech, and while this isn’t true, it’s not difficult to see how this viewpoint could be adopted when many self-appointed progressives leap to outrage as soon as the opportunity is handed to them."
- Zoe Harassment "a vulgar wave of harassment"
- Pacific Standard "Online Harassment of Women Isn't Just a Gamer Problem" [36]
- What is GamerGate? "The effort to link gamer identity to deviance has also sponsored a backlash: Some have started using the hashtag #gamergate to criticize the video game press and push back against their current portrayal in the media."
- Zoe Harassment "harassment"
- boingboing "How imageboard culture shaped Gamergate" [37]
- What is GamerGate? "clash of anonymous imageboard culture with the parts of social media where people live and work"
- Zoe Harassment "GamerGaters were spreading personal information, nude photos, and defamatory accusations against game developer Zoe Quinn"
- Daily Caller "The #WaronNerds: How Far-Left Feminists And The Media Created #Gamergate" [38]
- What is GamerGate? "an online movement by video game enthusiasts focused primarily on ethics in video game journalism and the video game industry, with secondary concerns about the corrupting influence of extreme left-wing ideology on both"
- Zoe Harassment "death threats and harassment against Quinn"
- Forbes "GamerGate: A Closer Look At The Controversy Sweeping Video Games" [39]
- What is GamerGate? "In the end, it’s about gamers upset with the status quo and demanding something better. It’s about a group of consumers and enthusiasts not simply feeling that their identity is threatened, but believing that they’re being poorly represented by an industry and press that grow more and more cliquish and remote every year."
- Zoe Harassment "Both Quinn and YouTuber Anita Sarkeesian reported death threats forcing them to leave their homes."
- Real Clear Politics "The Gender Games: Sex, Lies, and Videogames" [40]
- What is GamerGate? "To liberals and progressives, it’s part of a reactionary white male backlash against the rise of diversity—in this case, “sexist thugs” out to silence and destroy women who seek equality in the gaming subculture. To conservatives and right-leaning libertarians, it’s a welcome pushback against left-wing cultural diktat"
- Zoe Harassment "Threads discussing this dust-up, some of them quite nasty"
- Adam Smith Institute "Why gamergate will lose" [41]
- What is GamerGate? "those who either think there is a conspiracy in games journalism; that they have been unfairly stigmatised and bullied; those who dislike Zoe Quinn; and/or those who oppose social justice activism being a major part of games journalism"
- Zoe Harassment "sexual and violent threats against Quinn"
- Metaleater "GAMERS LIVE! AN IN-DEPTH ANALYSIS OF GAMERGATE" [42]
- What is GamerGate? "The people at the core of GamerGate are the gamers, among which I count myself. GamerGate started because gamers felt attacked"
- Zoe Harassment "Quinn [...] got doxxed"
- Vox "Gamergate and the politicization of absolutely everything" [43]
- What is GamerGate? "Gamergate has become a political conflict. Video games, at this point, are an excuse for that conflict [...] Gamergate, as well as the reaction against it, isn't any one thing. It includes horrifying, probably criminal, harassment against pretty much any women who dare oppose it. It's partly an argument about what kinds of games the gaming press should cover — and, by extension, what kinds of games developers should make. It has members who want clearer disclosure policies in gaming journalism. It has a lot of people who joined because they hate feminism and internet "social justice" warriors. And it has many people, on both sides, who are far surer about who they're fighting than what they're fighting about."
- Zoe Harassment [not mentioned by name]
- The New Yorker "Gamergate: A Scandal Erupts in the Video-Game Community" [44]
- What is GamerGate? "Gamergate is an expression of a narrative that certain video-game fans have chosen to believe: that the types of games they enjoy may change or disappear in the face of progressive criticism and commentary, and that the writers and journalists who cover the industry coördinate their message and skew it to push an agenda."
- Zoe Harassment [not described]
- The New Yorker "Zoe Quinn’s Depression Quest" [45]
- What is GamerGate? "In the past few weeks, a debate about journalistic ethics in video-game coverage has spilled onto social media. Tens of thousands of tweets were written, most of them accompanied by the hashtag #gamergate. Many Twitter users involved in the discussion called for more clarity and disclosure by writers about the relationships they have with independent creators. They want critics to abide by John Updike’s sound rule to never “accept for review a book you are … committed by friendship to like.” In Quinn’s case, the fact that she was the subject of the attacks rather than the friend who wrote about her game reveals the true nature of much of the criticism: a pretense to make further harassment of women in the industry permissible."
- Zoe Harassment "After the developer was doxed, the prank calls, threatening e-mails, and abusive tweets intensified to such a degree that Quinn, fearing for her safety, chose to leave her home and sleep on friends’ sofas." [also the lurid quotation, noted elsewhere]
- Boston Magazine "Game of Fear" [46]
- What is GamerGate? "a savage online movement [...] a witch hunt against anyone involved in breaches of so-called ethics in video-game journalism"
- Zoe Harassment "What’s more, she told the judge, the results had been particularly severe: Since Gjoni’s initial blog post, “I have received numerous death and rape threats from an anonymous mob that [Gjoni] had given details to,” she wrote. “My personal info like my home address, phone number, emails, passwords, and those of my family has been widely distributed, alongside nude photos of me, and several of my professional accounts and those of my colleagues have been hacked.”"
- The Huffington Post "What is #GamerGate?" [47]
- What is GamerGate? "The conversation continues to divide gamers calling for journalistic integrity within the gaming industry and those who believe #Gamergate is merely a misogynistic movement aimed at alienating female gamers."
- Zoe Harassment [not described]
This is just what I had bookmarked, so please do post more. Rhoark (talk) 06:18, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
- A lot of those are blog posts and opinion pieces, looking over them. Remember, we can't cite blogs or opinion pieces for statements of fact, only to say eg. "so-and-so believes this" (and even then, we have to establish that their opinion is noteworthy; most of the people there don't look particularly noteworthy.) Others, like TechCrunch, metaleater, and CinemaBlend, have been brought up several times but don't really pass WP:RS, at least not for any controversial statements on a topic with this level of coverage, since they either lack a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy, are low-profile enough that it would be giving them WP:UNDUE weight to focus on any WP:FRINGE views they express when they contradict mainstream coverage, or both. The others vary wildly in quality, prominence, and relevance. Of the sources we can use, I'm not seeing anything in them that isn't already covered in the article, and nothing that particularly supports your assertion that people are losing sight of what the reliable sources say -- these are all sources we discussed in depth, and I assure you anyone who has been editing the article for any length of time is well-acquainted with all of them. --Aquillion (talk) 09:13, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
- Many sources in this list, replete with right-wing sites, are unusable, and many top sources (New Yorker, Boston Magazine) apparently absent. MarkBernstein (talk) 12:51, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
- Hi MarkBernstein, Many thanks for your comments. W.r.t the connection between a source being "right wing" and it being "unusable"; if this is suggested as a causal relationship, that they are unusable because they are right wing, then it is certainly a novel approach. Would you be able to provide policy or guideline supporting this? WP:NPOV#Bias_in_sources would seem to suggest that there is no prohibition on using "biased" sources, provided we write the article in a neutral manner. WP:NPOV#Attributing_and_specifying_biased_statements suggests that this can be achieved by attributing statements from biased sources. Thanks in advance for your additional thoughts on this. - Ryk72 'c.s.n.s.' 17:44, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
- Not all of these are considered reliable sources but thank you for putting together a list that can be considered, Rhoark. So many different lists of possible sources have been posted in the talk pages that there should be a running list somewhere so we can easily see which have already been considered and which ones are new sources. Liz Read! Talk! 14:00, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
- Hi Liz, Thanks for raising this important point. While we require a very strong standard for sources supporting statements of fact in Wikipedia's voice, opinion sources are inherently "reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author"; so this is not as big an issue as it would seem. As Aquillion suggests, the question of WP:DUE remains, but, given that this is an article on a controversy, it would not seem undue to document a range of views on the subjects. (It may be useful to think of this article as analogous to the "Flat Earth" article, not the "Earth" article). Hope this helps. - Ryk72 'c.s.n.s.' 19:23, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
- However, we have frequently been asked to skew the article to give preferential emphasis to WP:FRINGE or simply fantastical opinions that are poorly represented, or unrepresented in the sources. We won't do that, of course.MarkBernstein (talk) 01:13, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
Rhoark says of the New Yorker, "Zoe Harassment [not described]". This continues a disturbing trend on these pages of assertions that are incorrect, readily demonstrated to be incorrect, that their authors should have known to be incorrect, but were stated anyway. In this case, The New Yorker ran an entire profile on Zoe Quinn’s harassment: [48]. This reference could have been discovered by reading the article page -- as I recall there's a long and memorable quote, one that was mentioned right here yesterday. Or there’s the Zoe Quinn page, which refers to it. Or there’s always Google, not to mention The New Yorker’s capable full text search. The spectrum of positions, once we sort out the wing nuts, is not very large, and is adequately represented in the article (although, as I say above, most sources outside Wikipedia treat Gamergate as either a criminal or terrorist conspiracy, and so our present treatment is generous to the point of violating WP:FRINGE). MarkBernstein (talk) 16:53, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
- I've added that link now, too. This is why if anyone thinks a significant source has been omitted from the above list, it would be better they specify it precisely. I have not made any claim that every significant view is represented in the list so far. After some more time has passed for people to point out omissions, I'll respond to the matters of the sources' reliability and the overall implications of this list. Rhoark (talk) 17:59, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
- Since the press is not a legal authority, even if the entire press body considers GG as criminal, we cannot present that as fact if no legal case has been established. (The only legal aspect we have reported is the restraining order Quinn got towards Gjoni). "Terrorist" also is a term with legal connotations, same with "hate group" (as there are different sets of laws that can be engaged if these was legally labelled as such). We can explain with attribution this is how the press feels, but we can't state it as fact. --MASEM (t) 17:45, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
- One night some time ago, someone broke into my house and made off with, among other things, a television and a bottle of bourbon. The burglar was not apprehended; we cannot identify him. But my television was stolen, a crime was committed. We do not know, yet, who use Wikipedia to threaten to murder Zoe Quinn, but we know this happened, and we know it was a criminal act. MarkBernstein (talk) 01:13, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- No question that the crime here (harassment and threats) are illegal, barring any result of that SCOTUS decision (which involves motive). But we have no idea of the identity of the people that did it, outside of it being done under the name of GG. No specific person has been identified, arrested, or tried, as best we know, so to say that GG supporters are criminal or terrorists or a hate group is WP's voice but only based on the press's stance would not be proper. There has been a crime done by one or more people using the GG hashtag, but that is purely an unknown group at the present time, as opposed to the GG supporters who claim their motives are about ethics. These sources (particularly the higher ones on the list, the more reliable ones) do make this difference between hashtag users and GG supporters clear, even if they dismiss the ethics claims given by the GG supporters and suggest that their group encourages/enables the harassment. --MASEM (t) 02:04, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- And you are still wrong Masem. when the only thing that identifies a gamergater is the use of the hashtag, crimes done under the hashtag are crimes done by gamergate. "no true gamergater would commit illegal harassment" does not stand up in court. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 02:24, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- So Milo and Christina - who have now fully identified themselves with gamergate - should be charged with the crime of harassment? Obviously, no, it doesn't work like that. Yes, the crimes are attributable to some subset (which perhaps may be all, but as sources suggest, probably is more likely a small subset) of those using the hashtag, and if law enforcement can figure out that subset with proper evidence, I'm sure criminal justice would be served. But no source - and certainly not WP - assigns the criminal act to the whole of the GG movement, and the highest reliable sources in the list do suggest the criminal aspect is only a small portion of those using the hashtag. The sources do infer that the movement does not do enough to stem harassment and in fact its nature of anonymity and leaderlessness encourages that harassment to continue, but they do not call out those that state they are just trying to address ethics as criminals, just misaligned and sometimes conspiracy theorists. Until there is proper legal case made to treat all of GG as criminals, WP cannot take that stance, period. --MASEM (t) 07:12, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- Masem, this is an infeasible burden to place on a statement about any group endeavor on an encyclopedia. If we follow your suggestion, we would need a criminal conviction for each and every member of a group in order to make any colorable statement about the group itself. This from an insistence that we treat commonly understood and wikilinked terms as specific legal accusations simply because they have a negative connotation. Neither the unanimity this proposal demands nor the interpretation of terms used broadly across reliable sources can be supported. I should note that both of these elements to this proposal cut toward gamergate. Just as the months long discussion over how to consider sources beyond reliable sources in the totality of an article also circulated around a proposal whose core elements were more favorable to gamergate. Protonk (talk) 14:10, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
- No - you'd only need it for things that carry legal weight. There is no issue with the pressing calling GG out as a bunch of conspiracy theorists, because there's no laws against holding conspiracy theories (by itself). There's no issue calling the group misogynistic, or anti-feminism, or whatever (with appropriate sourcing). But as soon as you bring in terms that do have legal ramifications, that's where we have to be extremely careful when no case has been made, and absolutely make sure that it is a claim stated to sources and not a fact. This is what WP:LABEL states, so this is not anything new. --MASEM (t) 14:21, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
- Masem, this is an infeasible burden to place on a statement about any group endeavor on an encyclopedia. If we follow your suggestion, we would need a criminal conviction for each and every member of a group in order to make any colorable statement about the group itself. This from an insistence that we treat commonly understood and wikilinked terms as specific legal accusations simply because they have a negative connotation. Neither the unanimity this proposal demands nor the interpretation of terms used broadly across reliable sources can be supported. I should note that both of these elements to this proposal cut toward gamergate. Just as the months long discussion over how to consider sources beyond reliable sources in the totality of an article also circulated around a proposal whose core elements were more favorable to gamergate. Protonk (talk) 14:10, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
- So Milo and Christina - who have now fully identified themselves with gamergate - should be charged with the crime of harassment? Obviously, no, it doesn't work like that. Yes, the crimes are attributable to some subset (which perhaps may be all, but as sources suggest, probably is more likely a small subset) of those using the hashtag, and if law enforcement can figure out that subset with proper evidence, I'm sure criminal justice would be served. But no source - and certainly not WP - assigns the criminal act to the whole of the GG movement, and the highest reliable sources in the list do suggest the criminal aspect is only a small portion of those using the hashtag. The sources do infer that the movement does not do enough to stem harassment and in fact its nature of anonymity and leaderlessness encourages that harassment to continue, but they do not call out those that state they are just trying to address ethics as criminals, just misaligned and sometimes conspiracy theorists. Until there is proper legal case made to treat all of GG as criminals, WP cannot take that stance, period. --MASEM (t) 07:12, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- To the extent that they have encouraged people to identify them with Gamergate, Masem’s friends Milo and Christina, upon whom he is apparently on first-name terms (how nice for him!) might indeed be said, by the many who regard Gamergate as a criminal conspiracy, as writers who are identified with a criminal conspiracy. I am skeptical that these people are chiefly identified with Gamergate. But this is not immediately relevant: my point is that if new, zombie, IP, and brigaded account demand that we reexamine every adjective in the article, the result will be a great deal of additional work, and may well be an article that is still more critical of Gamergate than the article we have today. MarkBernstein (talk) 18:39, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- Please stop the personal attacks. And the issue is simply that when we are using words that fall within the scope of WP:W2W that, to avoid NPOV and NOR, we are making sure that either the wording selection is completely obvious from the bulk of sources (such as describing the harassment as misogynistic) or that we include inline sources that use that wording if it is sufficiently but not obviously common, or that we quote or attribute in prose to the speaker if the word is only used by a single source. The OP here had a fair point that we had an unsourced sentence that used contentious languages, but sources were found to show that is the exact wording used and those sources were added. Most of the other sentences in the article have their own inline source, so this should not be an major issue. --MASEM (t) 18:54, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- And you are still wrong Masem. when the only thing that identifies a gamergater is the use of the hashtag, crimes done under the hashtag are crimes done by gamergate. "no true gamergater would commit illegal harassment" does not stand up in court. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 02:24, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- No question that the crime here (harassment and threats) are illegal, barring any result of that SCOTUS decision (which involves motive). But we have no idea of the identity of the people that did it, outside of it being done under the name of GG. No specific person has been identified, arrested, or tried, as best we know, so to say that GG supporters are criminal or terrorists or a hate group is WP's voice but only based on the press's stance would not be proper. There has been a crime done by one or more people using the GG hashtag, but that is purely an unknown group at the present time, as opposed to the GG supporters who claim their motives are about ethics. These sources (particularly the higher ones on the list, the more reliable ones) do make this difference between hashtag users and GG supporters clear, even if they dismiss the ethics claims given by the GG supporters and suggest that their group encourages/enables the harassment. --MASEM (t) 02:04, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- One night some time ago, someone broke into my house and made off with, among other things, a television and a bottle of bourbon. The burglar was not apprehended; we cannot identify him. But my television was stolen, a crime was committed. We do not know, yet, who use Wikipedia to threaten to murder Zoe Quinn, but we know this happened, and we know it was a criminal act. MarkBernstein (talk) 01:13, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
The Implications
I posted this list not so much as a resource, but as a message: "Your recollection of the sources is faulty."
About half of the list is already cited in the article. 100% of the list is reliable enough to use on Wikipedia in some capacity. Reliability, as you well know, is always in a context. Some sources can be ruled out based on the publisher alone, but the reliability of even the flimsiest in the above list must take into account the nature of the claim. Then, there's the New York Times; let's start there.
"#GamerGate, a term adopted by those who see ethical problems among game journalists and political correctness in their coverage"
CNN? "a heated debate over journalistic integrity, the definition of video games and the identity of those who play them"
NPR? "#Gamergate is about two key things: ethics in video game journalism, and the role and treatment of women in the video game industry"
Tell me, is this the consensus of reliable mainstream sources that's being defended? Because when I look at this article, I see something different entirely. There's no question that mainstream reliable sources consider harassment the most important part of the story, but when it comes to how centrally harassment figures in the controversy, there's considerably less unity. Some describe a majority concerned with ethics and a minority that are misogynist. Others say it's the people concerned with ethics that are harassing due to their vociferousness. Some simply name ethics and harassment with equal weight. A lot say its impossible to tell. Even taking only the most reliable sources, or only taking left-leaning sources, you cannot escape nuance and ambiguity. From where, then, does this article draw the self-assuredness to open, "The Gamergate controversy concerns sexism in video game culture"?
WP:NPOV states, "All encyclopedic content on Wikipedia must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." (emphasis mine) The article as it stands does not even represent fairly, proportionately, or without bias the views contained in sources it already cites. At one place or another the article gives lip service to certain nuances, but this is inadequate. A revision is required, stem to stern, emphasizing impartiality, editorial distance, and the uncertain authorship of violent threats.
The specific ethical allegations, so far as reliable sources describe them, must be described in sufficiently complete terms for a reader to understand what these allegations are - not only that they are rejected by Gamergate's detractors. There is no justification to be found in WP:FRINGE to do otherwise. "Ideas should not be excluded from the encyclopedia simply because they are widely held to be wrong." These views are central to an understanding of the topic. Usual notions of proportionality, false balance, or necessary assumptions must be significantly modulated with respect to views that are the subject of the article.
No specific edit is proposed here, and this can all be done with impeccable adherence to BLP. Those already preparing their straw men can just stow them. I'll be following up with specific edits as time goes on, but wanted to open the conversation with an explanation of why these changes are coming and are necessary. As WP:NPOV warns, "This policy is non-negotiable, and the principles upon which it is based cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, nor by editor consensus."
Rhoark (talk) 04:50, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
- This is what I've been trying to argue for several months, and this post summarizes the issue very well. I've previously proposed a version (probably 3-4 months old) that simply was a re-arrangements of the existing sources primarily to group everything directly associated with "GG movement about ethics, and the criticism towards that" and then having a separate criticism of the harassment and larger culture war issues, and that was outright rejected for continued version that biased strongly against any objective coverage of GG even though it was possible with the RSes we had. As well as establishing the more conservative tone that is the middle point of all the possible claims of what GG is made up of from the various sources - that there's those involved in the call for ethics, that there's some that are using harassment as their tool, but the overlap of those two groups is not clear - it may be zero, it may be 100%, but most high RSes claim it's likely a minority of the first group that falls into the other. Again, no changes in sources, just adopting the objective, neutral, non-soapbox approach to this situation. --MASEM (t) 05:15, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
- I'm confused. Are you arguing that the article should state "Gamergate is about ethics, but most people don't think so" or "Most people think Gamergate is about harassment, but they claim ethics?" Is that an order change? Because I don't think that's true, nor that sources say that (ethics first over harassment). Most sources seem to say that it's about hating women first, hating people of color second, hating any other kind of social progressiveness third, and then trying to apply a veneer of sophistication (ethics!) overtop all of the previous in order to whitewash. What are you actually suggesting here?--Jorm (talk) 05:38, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
- The reason GG has any sort of notability is the continued harassment. There is no way that cannot be presented first and foremost, nor can we dismiss having a section that harshly criticizes the harassment tactics and why harassment is being seen as a tool for silencing the opposition. But that's all general facts that are hard to dismiss that have happened and commentary that exists far and wide. It is then how the controversy is presented after that point that becomes how an objective, neutral, impartial encyclopedia should "teach the controversy", in considering the breakdown of sources Rhoark provides. There is a side of GG - regardless of how much it has been considered secondary or conspiracy theories or a front for harassment - that claims to be about ethics in journalism, which while it cannot be documented to the letter that GGers would want to see it simply because we cannot violate NPOV/RS, it can be documented from the RSes listed above. Points about ethics issues have been presented in these RSes, but for the most part they have been determined inactionable (such as "objective reviews"); that doesn't mean we shouldn't cover them because as Rhoark said, this is not a FRINGE aspect, this is central to the controversy. All this is already in the article, but not organized in a manner that makes this clear. The organization, along with some wording choices, is aimed to sweep up any objective coverage of the GG claims that already exist in this RS list under the rug that comes from the weight of the charges involving harassment; this is through salting all the GG stance throughout the article so they are buried among negative statements towards this, which is a classic way of biasing any argument. Based on Rhoark's analysis and list above, I disagree that "most" sources - particularly when you narrow down to the most reliable sources - bury the ethics aspects. Some sources certainly do, but some talk about the ethics first and then the harassment. Or establish why this is a negative situation and then go into the ethics. WP should be taking the most conservative, median view here as a starting point, and then adding claims from the off-center points to expand how the controversy is seen in the press. --MASEM (t) 05:59, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
- I'm confused. Are you arguing that the article should state "Gamergate is about ethics, but most people don't think so" or "Most people think Gamergate is about harassment, but they claim ethics?" Is that an order change? Because I don't think that's true, nor that sources say that (ethics first over harassment). Most sources seem to say that it's about hating women first, hating people of color second, hating any other kind of social progressiveness third, and then trying to apply a veneer of sophistication (ethics!) overtop all of the previous in order to whitewash. What are you actually suggesting here?--Jorm (talk) 05:38, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
- Reliable source have found no ethical concerns that were well founded, grounded in reality, or anything other than a shield for threatening blameless software developers with injury, rape, and murder. Many, many reliable sources -- unimpeachable sources like the CJR and The New Yorker -- have found otherwise. This should not surprise us: groups seeking to reform newsroom practice do not often advance their cause by threatening to rape anyone -- especially not by threatening to rape people who aren't involved in journalism!
- That Wikipedia is still discussing this is astonishing, and deeply dismaying.
- Our article is already far too sympathetic to misogynistic harassment. Masem urges us to take "the most conservative...view" and then "add claims from the off-center points" -- an approach that would be a right-wing extremist's fever dream. The encyclopedic approach, quite clearly, is to express the consensus of the best and most authoritatively reliable sources. They agree without exception that the purported ethics concerns are unfounded, miasmic, vague, mistaken, or illusory, while the threats of rape, murder, and personal injury are, everyone agrees, repellent. (Masem just took this argument for a month-long expedition to WT:NPOV. After that huge discussion did not go his way, his promised dropping of that particular stick has apparently become inoperative.)
- Wikipedia's continued indulgence of this disruptive and highly organized crusade to whitewash Gamergate's reputation is shameful, and its continuance long past the point when it's intent and malice has been made abundantly clear to all is a further shame -- and a very real threat to the project itself. MarkBernstein (talk) 15:06, 15 June 2015 (UTC)