Lowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs) m Archiving 2 discussion(s) to Talk:Game of Thrones/Archive 2) (bot |
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There's an RS-related RfC on [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Oathkeeper#RfC:_Blog_source--usable_for_facts.3F Oathkeeper]. Participation and fresh voices would be welcome. The matter concerns a single-line reference to the chapters upon which the episode was based. [[User:Darkfrog24|Darkfrog24]] ([[User talk:Darkfrog24|talk]]) 01:55, 16 August 2014 (UTC) |
There's an RS-related RfC on [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Oathkeeper#RfC:_Blog_source--usable_for_facts.3F Oathkeeper]. Participation and fresh voices would be welcome. The matter concerns a single-line reference to the chapters upon which the episode was based. [[User:Darkfrog24|Darkfrog24]] ([[User talk:Darkfrog24|talk]]) 01:55, 16 August 2014 (UTC) |
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== RfC: Is Westeros.org an expert SPS? == |
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There is an RfC at [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Oathkeeper#RfC:_Is_Westeros.org_a_suitable_source_for_this_content.3F Oathkeeper] regarding whether the site Westeros.org meets the criteria for an expert self-published source (and is therefore suitable for use on Wikipedia). It is being cited as a source for the statement "This episode was based on [specific chapters of] [specific book]." [[User:Darkfrog24|Darkfrog24]] ([[User talk:Darkfrog24|talk]]) 23:28, 2 September 2014 (UTC) |
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American Show?
It seems to me that Wikipedia is an Encyclopedia, and that one of the principles is that facts be verifiable outside Wikipedia, and that facts be cited. Claims about the nationality of Game of Thrones need references. Lee.Sailer (talk) 01:46, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
Is this an American show? If so, it needs to be stated in the introduction just like other similar shows. Keep in mind that the nationality of a show is dependent on the national origin of the production company. --Brickcity55 (talk) 21:50, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
- Says who? Both in general and as applied to this series? How can a TV series even be said to have a "nationality"? It's a creative work, not a person. People have nationalities, but creative works such as books, songs or films don't. The lead says it was made for a U.S. channel, isn't that clear enough? Sandstein 22:08, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
- Brickcity, the polite thing to do is to wait until discussion is over, not restore the contested piece of information then start a discussion, and it apparently is contested. Nationality does not have to be in the lede at all and other articles doing it is not an excuse, especially when it is contested, also you give no evidence that nationality belongs to the production company, infobox television merely says the shows country of origin, which is completely useless as an instruction. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 22:15, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
No darkwarrior, the polite thing for you to do is to keep calm and not catch an attitude. I don't have the time for it and it is not proper behavior for this forum, so calm down. Wikipedia calls for consistency so that is why I recommended the changes. You will not find other popular shows without country of origin in the lead. However, if you want to be inconsistent that is on you. I couldn't care less.--Brickcity55 (talk) 03:28, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
Someone changed the introduction to read that GoT is a British/American show. This is both false and misleading so I changed it back. The show originated in America and is produced by the American company HBO. This isn't a nationalistic thing as I'm Canadian. I just can't stand inconsistencies. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Brickcity55 (talk • contribs) 21:20, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
Someone has once again changed the introduction to read British/American. It is safe to say the page is being vandalize. --Brickcity55 (talk) 15:24, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
Vandalism Notice
Someone keeps changing the intro to read British/American show as opposed to American show. There is no proof of this as of yet as HBO owns and produces the show. I will change it back. --Brickcity55 (talk) 15:32, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
- (sigh) People making changes you disagree with is not vandalism. It may, however, be edit-warring. I'm still of the opinion that it makes little sense to label this as an "American", "British" or "British/American" series. First, we have no sources calling it any of this, second, works don't have nationalities, and third, there are many people from many countries involved. I'll ask for a third opinion. Sandstein 15:35, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
Sand stein I don't have a problem not listing an origin of a show in the lead. I just thing the same should be applied to all movies and tv shows across the board. HBO is the company that owns the piece, produces the pieces, and makes decisions about the piece. I'm not sure what the confusion seems to be about. It seems as though people pick and choose what guidelines they follow --Brickcity55 (talk) 16:04, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
If we start going by who directs, does the writing, makeup, set production, acts ect. then pretty much all shows and movies should have origin removed from the article. Editors should just do a sweeping removal of any mention of country of origin in any and all articles. If a German guy does the set lighting, who is to say it is not a German show, and if an Australian is the production assistant-- is the show not equally Australian? --Brickcity55 (talk) 16:10, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
My point is that mods are in danger if opening Pandora's box wider than it has ever been opened before.--Brickcity55 (talk) 16:18, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
The Walking Dead currently has 3 British actors in main roles. If two season from now every main role was played by a British actor, would the show be British American? These are issues that Wikipedia has to handle if decisions are made on the whole of the production and not the owner of the production. --Brickcity55 (talk) 16:27, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
Interesting argument --Dookiebot (talk) 14:04, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
A Neutral Third Opinion: This seems pretty straightforward to me. The show comes from the United States that makes it an American show. However I don't think it's necessary to say so in the lead. The information is already in the infobox. The nationalities of the actors etc. do not matter, it's an American show. James Bond movies are full of British actors, but it's still an American franchise. It's simply an American franchise about British people. Try to keep things civil and not edit-war. --Sue Rangell[citation needed] 01:36, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
Sue, you should look for my opinion above. Wp calls for consistency and should stand for that above all. An action in one should be an action in all.--Brickcity55 (talk) 12:50, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks, Sue. Brickcity, no, Wikipedia does not require consistency above all, at least not if there is no manual of style recommendation. In the instant case, it's just redundant and poor writing to say: "... is an American series ... by the U.S. channel HBO". I've removed the nationality in accordance with Sue's recommendation. Sandstein 17:27, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
Sand stein, you seem confused once again. Her opinion is not law, only a recommendation and since this issue is still being discussed you have no right to change anything yet. Therefore I'm changing it back until more people can post opinions of the issue at hand and a vote takes place. Wp also calls for consistency so if this is removed here without proof, evidence and any substantial matter of any substance, the same must be applied elsewhere and I will encourage it on other pages.--Brickcity55 (talk) 18:28, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
- Brick, you need to get over your obsession with "consistency" across Wikipedia articles. Sue and Sand have both presented logical reasons based on guidelines. My "vote" is that you listen to them. 2001:558:6045:A0:391F:B005:179D:8DD9 (talk) 18:37, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
Your negative attitude 2001 is not appropriate on wp. Please use appropriate and courteous behavior when interacting with other users. Also no vote date has been set. People need time to state their opinions on the issue for both sides --Brickcity55 (talk) 18:46, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
- I personally don't see any reason to have "American" in the lede. Its not necessary and is confusing to the average visitor. Though the show is created by an American company, few cast members are American and no filming is in the states. Its not only not necessary, but its potentially confusing.Caidh (talk) 02:05, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
Comment from uninvolved editor - I looked at 30 random articles on TV shows, including shows from France, US, Germany, UK, and Australian and every single one of them includes the nation-of-origin in the first sentence. Since that pattern represents the consensus of a large number of WP editors of a long span of time, I think this article should follow suit. Arguing that this one article - out of 100s (?) of WP television articles - should exclude the nation seems a bit perverse. Granted the "... US channel" following soon thereafter is a bit redundant, but that is easily fixed by moving the "US channel" to a later paragraph. --Noleander (talk) 11:44, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
DRN case discussion - There is an open DRN case on this topic. It is best if the discussion happen at only one place. If the DRN case is inappropriate, it should be closed, and discussion continue here. But if the DRN case is properly opened, the discussion here should pause and move to the DRN case. I don't have an opinion which forum is better: but it is not good to have two discussions going at once. --Noleander (talk) 11:44, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
- Agreed. Procedurally, it might be significant to note that Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Brickcity55 has established that Brickcity55 has created multiple accounts and has used two of them to participate in this discussion. Sandstein 09:19, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
Caihdl, there is no confusion. The show is produced by hbo so the issue is black and white. Where a show or movie is filmed does not impact the country of origin of a show. Filming locations change so does the origin change with it? No. Casting changes. Does this change origin? No. If two seasons from now, the cast is majority Irish and the show is filmed in Australia, would the show the be Irish-Australian? No. The show is American created, American produced, and American controlled. In short, it is American. I don't understand this fearful attitude ( which apparently is only for this article and not the hundreds of others) when it comes to putting country of origin in the lead--Brickcity55 (talk) 16:27, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
The DRN is closed and discussion has moved back to the talk page for editors to add their opinions about the matter. Mine are stated above and I will continue to add mine as necessary. --Brickcity55 (talk) 14:42, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
- Hi, just passing through here and will offer you my views on this. If a show is clearly owned, produced, filmed in, acted by, and about a country, the nationality of that is clear. You could even add that the owning company should be owned by people of said nationality too! Otherwise its debatable. Here, its misleading to call it a USA show.
- I don't see there is a need to have the nation in there anyway, what purpose does that serve to anyone? It may be useful to say if it is written by USA or produced by a nationality - that would to some prejudicial extent suggest some of its take on the content. But ownership of the company commissioning it, what does that say to my potential prejudice? Leave it out, other pages where its not solidly one nations show should leave out the prejudicial nationalism too :) Cjwilky (talk) 00:37, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
It is clear that it is an american created show. There is no reason to remove that fact simply because you don't agree with it. If you have proof, share it. You can't just make up information as you go along. The show stays American until more information is given. --Brickcity55 (talk) 01:48, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
- I'm amazed by all the debate about this simple issue. People should start a movement trying to figure out what country owns the colour red. However, when a production company that is registered in the US buys the rights to a number of novels with the intent to produce them as television shows, the resulting television production is owned by them; especially since the development was paid for by an American Company, marketing was paid for by the same company, etc... All production houses, casting agencies, technical crews and yada yada are all contracted by that American Company, and they would all agree that it's an HBO production. Game of Thrones is therefore an American Production because it is produced by HBO exclusively. There is no question about this fact. BarbaraMervin (talk) 22:23, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
Reading all this comments, only one topic comes to my mind: What is meant by "an American Company"? Is it the legal entity of the owner? I didn't investigate, because it can change rather quick. But what do you plan to do, if the ownership changes to another country (e.g. Japan)? Change all articels about TV shows produced by HBO? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.82.7.192 (talk) 19:22, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
Ahh the classic country of origin discussion. Is always the case of multinational productions. First off, an editor mentioned that James Bond films were American may I polity tell you where to go. They are British as mentioned here. Secondly, considering a British company was also involved in the production of the series as mentioned here, it is hardly surprising that the there is questions raised as to its origins. I would say that would make it most definitely a joint production and not 100% American as some users claim. If not joint, then most certainly a multinational production headed up by HBO MisterShiney ✉ 21:15, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
Is it possible judging from the lack of consensus that this could be called an "anti-American" show? One source [waverider96744.hubpages.com/hub/Is-HBOs-Game-of-Thrones-series-Anti-American] seems to think so...
That was a joke, by the way (in case anyone takes it the wrong way). Personally I support it being called an American show, but personal is irrelevant here. Pardon my ignorance, but isn't the issue what the reliable sources are on this, rather than opinions? The question is, are the reliable sources split on this matter? If not, then it should be left as is. Dark Unicorn 21:31, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
- Asking the question is answering it. Whatever the reliable sources say, goes. Our opinions are irrelevant - we are but slaves to the factual matter.—♦♦ AMBER(ЯʘCK) 22:28, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
- Deep. Dark Unicorn 22:36, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
- Oh my goodness! Confusing reliable souces with factual accuracy! Wikipedia repeats information others have propounded, it does not assert that this makes it factually accurate, merely that it is a popular belief!Sandpiper (talk) 23:14, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
Why does it say that GoT is an American production? It seems to be a British/American co-production. HBO is the main producer, but one of the production companies (at least for S1) is British (Generator Entertainment). HBO has also received financial support from the Northern Ireland Screen Fund. Consider the TV-series Rome (which HBO also co-produced), for example: BBC provided financial support for S1 and the series is widely regarded as a British/American co-production. The business section on IMDb Pro also states that GoT is an US/UK-production. HaiDeaf (talk) 20:53, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
- IMDB is not considered a reliable source on Wikipedia. Can you provide sources/links that show HBO has received financial support from those other companies, I've had trouble finding some. The BBC mentions the Northern Ireland Screen Fund in relation to the upcoming fourth season. It also says:
- "Major parts of the first three series of the medieval fantasy drama were made in Northern Ireland with the assistance of £9.25m in grants."
- While it doesn't make it crystal clear, its inferred that those grants are provided by the NI Fund. However, I'm not sure if "assistance" qualifies as "ownership". Dark Unicorn 23:01, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
- I've just had a look at the Rome (TV series) article page and I see where you're coming from. However that show seems to have been a BBC/HBO co-production agreement from the beginning. Is the same true of GoT? Again if you could provide sources that would help. Dark Unicorn 23:16, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
- According to Wikipedia's own article about IMDB, it's considered to be reliable:
- "Nevertheless, although it is generally assumed to be reliable[N 1], ..."
- I'm aware that all the information on IMDb is not 100% accurate all the time, but we're not talking about the Trivia-section, "early rumours" or "under development"-info here. IMDb Pro is a quite reliable source for this kind of information, and the information has been available for a long while now, so if it had been inaccurate, it would've been corrected by now. Do you have any specific reason to believe that this US/UK co-production information is incorrect?
- You wrote: "However, I'm not sure if "assistance" qualifies as "ownership ... However that show seems to have been a BBC/HBO co-production agreement from the beginning. Is the same true of GoT?"
- It doesn't really matter, IMO: What matters is that they provide financial support, and they've been doing so since the pilot. NI Screen Fund is one of the reasons why HBO ultimately decided to commission the series in the first place. There are many articles about this, but one of the most reliable ones is NI Screen Fund's own financial strategy document from 2010 (1). GoT investments are also mentioned in the NI Screen Commission strategy document in 2009 (2).
This subject has already been debated heavily. There is no proof that any company other than HBO owns and produces the TV series of Game of Thrones. Contributions do NOT equate to ownership. Unless someone can dig up an agreement where the Northern Ireland Fund contributed a certain amount of money in exchange for co-ownership with HBO, then the NI Fund cannot be seen as a co-owner. Just because they gave money, doesn't make them an owner. Perhaps, as is well written, they gave money in exchange of shooting the tv series in NI. Just because a production company shoots a work in a certain place, that place does not necessarily own the piece---unless that is the agreement. In the case of Rome-- it was well documented that it was a co-owned agreement between BBC and HBO. However, that is not the case for Game of Thrones. There is no proof as of yet. You can't just make things up as you go along. It isn't proper editing. --Brickcity55 (talk) 17:06, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
Financial support does not equal ownership. Ownership equals ownership. --Brickcity55 (talk) 17:09, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
The Walking Dead currently has 3 British actors in main roles. If two season from now every main role was played by a British actor, would the show be British American? These are issues that Wikipedia has to handle if decisions are made on the whole of the production and not the owner of the production. --Brickcity55 (talk) 16:27, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
Interesting argument --Dookiebot (talk) 14:04, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
A Neutral Third Opinion: This seems pretty straightforward to me. The show comes from the United States that makes it an American show. However I don't think it's necessary to say so in the lead. The information is already in the infobox. The nationalities of the actors etc. do not matter, it's an American show. James Bond movies are full of British actors, but it's still an American franchise. It's simply an American franchise about British people. Try to keep things civil and not edit-war. --Sue Rangell[citation needed] 01:36, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
Sue, you should look for my opinion above. Wp calls for consistency and should stand for that above all. An action in one should be an action in all.--Brickcity55 (talk) 12:50, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks, Sue. Brickcity, no, Wikipedia does not require consistency above all, at least not if there is no manual of style recommendation. In the instant case, it's just redundant and poor writing to say: "... is an American series ... by the U.S. channel HBO". I've removed the nationality in accordance with Sue's recommendation. Sandstein 17:27, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
Sand stein, you seem confused once again. Her opinion is not law, only a recommendation and since this issue is still being discussed you have no right to change anything yet. Therefore I'm changing it back until more people can post opinions of the issue at hand and a vote takes place. Wp also calls for consistency so if this is removed here without proof, evidence and any substantial matter of any substance, the same must be applied elsewhere and I will encourage it on other pages.--Brickcity55 (talk) 18:28, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
- Brick, you need to get over your obsession with "consistency" across Wikipedia articles. Sue and Sand have both presented logical reasons based on guidelines. My "vote" is that you listen to them. 2001:558:6045:A0:391F:B005:179D:8DD9 (talk) 18:37, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
Your negative attitude 2001 is not appropriate on wp. Please use appropriate and courteous behavior when interacting with other users. Also no vote date has been set. People need time to state their opinions on the issue for both sides --Brickcity55 (talk) 18:46, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
In my honest opinion, ownership is irrelevent. If an englishman goes into the Guinness Storehouse in Dublin, and orders a pint, pays for it, and therefore takes ownership of aforementioned pint, it doesn't mean that that glass contains British Beer. Neither does the fact that Guinness is owned by Diageo, a British company. Other than HBO's ownership, I see very little justification to call this an American show, and Brickcity55's repeated chest beating doesn't change that. Also, Asda is a british chain, even though it's owned by an American company. To me Game of Thrones is clearly not American, and other than ownership has no ties to the United states; The majority of the cast is British, it's shot mainly in Northen Ireland ( according to the rest of the paragraph), and most of the parts that weren't shot in Northern Ireland, were shot elsewhere in Europe, and Morrocco, and American Patriotism doesn't change this. Wikipedia should not be about the vanity of any particular country, and certainly shoud not state as fact, something that is clearly given the level of debate on the subject, a matter of opinion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.35.144.222 (talk) 21:34, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
I don't think that this is about American Patriotism. There is more to a TV show's country of 'origin' than the nationality of many of the actors, or where the show is filmed. The show has had numerous American actors on it, including Jason Momoa as Drogo, and Peter Dinklage as Tyron. The Star Wars films are considered American, even though the franchise has had a lot of British actors involved along side American actors, because it has only ever been owned and produced by American comapnies i.e. 20th Century Fox, Lucas Film, and Disney. Also, they have been mostly written, directed, and designed by Americans. We don't call A New Hope a Tunesian film, even though that is where the Tatooine parts were filmed. Game of Thrones is owned solely by HBO, an American company, even though they contract out certain tasks to other companies in different countries. Also, the two creators of the Game of Thrones TV series, David Benioff and D.B. Weiss, are both American. The show is adapted from a series of novels by George R. R. Martin, an American writer. In short, Game of thrones is owned and produced by an American company. It is created and written by Americans, who are also the creative leads of the show and make all of the decisions about the story, characters, and the show's overall direction; And A Song of Ice and Fire, itself, is created by an American writer. It is an American television show and of American 'origin' because it was purchased, commissioned, financed, and written in the USA before any scenes were filmed elsewhere. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chrono85 (talk • contribs) 16:14, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
I am confused why people here are discussing 'ownership'. the info box names the country of origin, not who owns it. I am pefectly happy with the description that it is "an american fantasy drama television series", and would still be so if owned by a japanese company. If it turns out a significant portion of the creative input is from somewhere else, then it should be stated. Sandpiper (talk) 23:14, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
This debate has been discussed to the max. What is left to talk about? HBO owns it. HBO is an american company. People need to stop trying to target GOT as though this page is the only page to have a country of origin section. As I've said--- you can't make up rules of you go. There needs to be consistency across the pages. Country of origin should not be based on set designers, lighting guys, hair dressers, actors, directors, location shoots, animators or god knows what else. If you want to discuss creative contributions--- make a section for that. It has absolutely nothing to do with country of origin. Nothing. Games of Thrones is owned by HBO. They foot the bill. They make the decisions. They can place it here or move it there. In my book, that makes the network the owners of the show. Please prove otherwise or just leave it be. Brickcity55 (talk) 02:18, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
I will also add that people please read this section from beginning to end before jumping into the debate. This discussion has become so repetitive and no one has added anything new to it. As I state before, if a german man does the lighting, is the show now german? If all the actors on the walking dead are recast and the new actors are canadian--- is the show canadian? Surely we can see the problems with the "creative contribution origin" argument. Brickcity55 (talk) 02:50, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 8 June 2014
Rewrite the international broadcasting as per WP:TVINTL. English speaking countries only, prose form, and should be titled Broadcast. WP:NOTABILITY and MOS:FLAGS also apply. 66.87.81.75 (talk) 16:35, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
- Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. — {{U|Technical 13}} (e • t • c) 16:58, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
Viewer Numbers: Season Number of Sopranos missing!
In "Viewer Numbers" it says: "making the season the second-most viewed of any HBO series,[146] after The Sopranos.[147]".
I think it's weird that the sentence clearly tries to compare viewers-per-season averages, but instead compares a season to a series. It's like saying: "This episode was the third most expensive after The Sopranos and The Wire". When you compare cost-per-episode, compare episodes, not episodes with series.
Since the sentence compares the per-season audience, the sentence should explicitly mention two seasons. And the link clearly also states that's it's the fifth season of The Sopranos which had more viewers (" GoT will end its third season Sunday as the most popular series on HBO since the Adrianna-whacking fifth season of The Sopranos."), so I think it should say "making the season the second-most viewed of any HBO series,[146] after the fifth season of The Sopranos.[147]" --78.54.114.36 (talk) 18:15, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
P.S.: I just noticed [148] (http://www.hitfix.com/the-fien-print/game-of-thrones-has-become-more-popular-than-the-sopranos-sorta-kinda) and the wikipedia page for The Sopranos contradicts the statement in [147] that the fifth-season was the most viewed. [148] talks about the 2002 season, which was season 4, which is also listed as the most viewed in the wikipedia article on The Sopranos. --78.54.114.36 (talk) 18:22, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
- I removed both the season and the viewing figure for The Sopranos because of the confusion between the sources. The original wording in the article ("after the fifth season of The Sopranos, which obtained 14.4 million viewers in 2004") appears to be wrong. If anyone is certain about which season of The Sopranos they are referring to, then by all means modify it. I will adjust it for now to show that they are comparing season averages. Hzh (talk) 13:28, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 15 June 2014
Change the broadcast section from a list of every channel in a table to a list of English speaking channels in prose. The changes conform with WP:TVINTL. 66.87.80.38 (talk) 22:13, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
- Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. — {{U|Technical 13}} (e • t • c) 14:16, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 16 June 2014
Change X (table of international channels) to Y (English broadcasts in prose). This is encouraged by WP:TVINTL. 66.87.81.34 (talk) 19:03, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
- That guideline says "simply listing every channel the series appears on is discouraged". We're not that simple and already also have a paragraph on two notable channels. The thing to do is add prose to the section on any English (or other) broadcasters you think deserve "special mention". The list part is for those who don't.
- Off the top of my head, it spawned a Sky Atlantic webcast, cleverly called Thronecast. Apparently, it's the only "official" one. Seems like something that might be worth noting. InedibleHulk (talk) 05:55, June 17, 2014 (UTC)
- Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. This is not detailed enough. - Older and ... well older (talk) 18:47, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
Supposed rape and cultural differences.
I object to assuming that sex scene in episode "Breaker of chains" was universally considered rape by all audiences. This is a controversy not a fact.
Many people in USA believe that the scene depicted rape because apparently in their society, the rape is defined as "nonconsensual intercourse", with lack of consent expressed in the verbal form or even lack of verbal consent. This however is not true with European audiences. You can confirm this by comparing different legal systems for the definition of rape. Cultural differences go even further. Shocking as it may be to USA audiences, some European viewers would say that Cersei behavior was ambiguous and that she might expected and encouraged this kind of response from her brother. They would also point out that her verbal and non-verbal expressions are not consistent and in such case non-verbal take priority. Some would say that the event is so ambiguous that it should be judged by outcome, but lack of excessive violence (the definition of excessive is also subjective here) implies there was no rape. Some would say that since the objective of the intercourse was not to harm and humiliate (this again is subjective) there was no rape. Others would point out that in their countries women are bound to say "no" despite or even conversely to their actual feelings, so again there was no rape. And so on.
Westeros is not USA and it does not fallow its moral code. Assuming that 100% of audiences (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/05/04/why-we-should-pretend-the-game-of-thrones-rape-scene-never-happened.html) considered this rape scene is wrong. I think that this part of article should be rephrased. 89.71.106.7 (talk) 13:03, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- I understand the concern. It is an interpretation of the scene (but I think it is not helpful to say that it is an American interpretation, Sweden for example has a broader definition of rape), whether it was the intention of the show to depict rape or not is another matter. Hzh (talk) 17:17, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- I'd have removed the original post as trolling. Rape is universally defined as sexual intercourse without consent, including in Europe. At any rate, whatever our opinion, we follow reliable sources, which describe the scene as rape without qualifications. Sandstein 17:48, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Except that the director of the show didn't think it was meant to depict rape. So it is an interpretation of what's shown. Hzh (talk) 19:12, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- I should also add that per WP:ASSERT, we should be careful about what is a fact and what is an opinion. When something is unambiguously true, then we can state it as a fact, but given that the director himself didn't think he was depicting rape, it becomes a matter of opinion whether what he chose to show is rape or not. Hzh (talk) 19:51, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- He definitely intended to show a guy replying to "no" with "I don't care" and going right ahead in a church on a mourning mother. The word he used to desribe it in his planning head doesn't matter. It's one of those WP:SKYISBLUE things to assume any woman (let alone your sister) really means "no" in that situation. It's rape by common English standards, but it doesn't mean it was equal to the Elia Martell rape. InedibleHulk (talk) 04:56, June 21, 2014 (UTC)
- For comparison: scene from "Son's of Anarchy": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_nA11nGRpc Clearly 100% of US movie critics and even some wiki mods would put a bullet in guy's head instantly. Also compare with "The Walking Dead" series where people would call Shane a rapist (even though he didn't rape anyone and supposed attempt is questionable). Also compare with Cronenberg's "A History of Violence" for an allegedly rape scene, which in director's mind was a complex scene that was not rape but was perceived as such by some viewers and movie critics. Oddly enough there is no mention of the scene here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_History_of_Violence. 89.71.106.7 (talk) 22:43, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
- He definitely intended to show a guy replying to "no" with "I don't care" and going right ahead in a church on a mourning mother. The word he used to desribe it in his planning head doesn't matter. It's one of those WP:SKYISBLUE things to assume any woman (let alone your sister) really means "no" in that situation. It's rape by common English standards, but it doesn't mean it was equal to the Elia Martell rape. InedibleHulk (talk) 04:56, June 21, 2014 (UTC)
- I'd have removed the original post as trolling. Rape is universally defined as sexual intercourse without consent, including in Europe. At any rate, whatever our opinion, we follow reliable sources, which describe the scene as rape without qualifications. Sandstein 17:48, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Indeed, not everyone interpreted the Game of Thrones scene as rape (for example, Jaime's portrayer did not), and that is addressed in the section about the scene at the episode article, and is debated on that episode article's talk page. The director, however, as that section shows, did originally refer to the scene as rape.
Relevance of later, made-for-TV non-rape
At first it seemed irrelevant to mention that Jamie and Cersei had consensual sex in the finale, and extremely "random" to note that it didn't happen in the books. But this revert summary cleared things up a bit. User:Gevorg89 seems to think this change from the books was made apologetically, a rare instance of catering to the critics (if true).
Given that, I can see the relevance, but the point needs to be explained and sourced, rather than vaguely implied. I'm a fairly(?) big Ice and Fire geek, and it went over my head. The general Wikipedia audience probably wouldn't have caught it, either. If that can be fixed, I see no problem with it. InedibleHulk (talk) 04:56, June 21, 2014 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 18 June 2014
Change the table of international channels to English broadcasts as per WP:TVINTL. 208.54.90.206 (talk) 10:38, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- Not done: By me at least. If this issue is felt to be urgent, I suggest IP to WP:SIGNUP and WP:SOFIXIT. Sam Sailor Sing 11:03, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
Changing location of Doune Castle
Can someone change the 'in' to 'near', as it's cited in the ref 43. It's 8 miles from Stirling to Doune.--Malcheyne (talk) 15:30, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
- Not done: According to the Doune Castle article, the village of Doune is located inside the Stirling district of central Scotland. Mz7 (talk) 00:53, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 30 June 2014
Hey, I don't have the rights to edit this semi-protected page. Please look at the paragraph under the Piracy Subtitle. The second (and third?) sentences run together incorrectly: "The significant delays in availability outside of HBO or its affiliates contributed to this.[66] and the cost of subscriptions to these services." Maybe it could say: "The cost of an HBO subscription, and significant delays in availability of Game of Thrones outside of HBO, may be contributing to the popularity of pirating this show." Thanks, Pepper VanDam (talk) 21:19, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
Pepper VanDam (talk) 21:19, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
- Partly done: I've shifted the wording around to make it flow better, but I haven't implemented your proposed sentence because I feel it changes its tone. Thank you for your contribution to Wikipedia. Mz7 (talk) 00:50, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
If anyone can shed light on the "Games of Thrones" claim at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gary Wales (actor), please do. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 17:59, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
Thematic coverage
This article spends a lot of time covering the minutae of filming locations but doesn't seem to touch at all on the various themes incorporated by Martin and the producers, which set the show apart from similar genre works. I know I've read interviews and such that discussed the ideas of good and evil not being black and white etc. The lead mentions the issues explored but none of that plays out in the rest of the article. I'd start making adds myself but I have a feeling this is a highly-"policed" article, and I'd rather not spend too much time developing something that will be excised. — TAnthonyTalk 20:36, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
- I have no objection to exploring its themes, although others might argue that a section on themes is more relevant to its source material, i.e. the books, therefore should go into the article for A Song of Ice and Fire. That article already has a section on "Themes", although I think that section could and should be expanded. In this article you would need to write on something that is centered on the TV show, and I think it would be hard not to duplicate what is or should be in the article for A Song of Ice and Fire, so others might argue that a section here is redundant. I think it would be a tricky section to write (does the TV show bring anything new or different to the source material, is there any shift in emphasis, etc.) but you can always make a start on it, if others object, then point them to the talk page and continue the discussion. Hzh (talk) 02:55, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
- I don't think the content has to be necessarily "new and different" from the source material if it is discussed with commentary in context of the TV series itself. If I'm reading an article about a TV series and wondering why everyone says it's so great, I shouldn't have to go to another article about the book series to get the idea (and besides, the show can't and doesn't get into the entire scope the novels can, so it's not the same). I get what you're saying about redundancy, but the two articles don't necessarily have the same audience, and anyway I would argue that this one does not fully cover the topic. Obviously as with any article about a topic with passionate fans, you get a wide range of borderline trivial areas, and I think a good job has been done here keeping that in check and keeping sections brief. But it kind of irks me that there is such well-cultivated info about costumes, filming locations and languages but not really anything about the writing or thematic complexity beyond some general critical reviews. Anyway, if I get around to adding something at least the article watchers will be warned of my intent by this discussion ;) — TAnthonyTalk 03:44, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
- Those supposed borderline trivia directly relate to the TV show, and this is in the right place for them. If you want to add a themes section, the way to deal with it is to have a section with a short summary, but just under the section title, points it to the main article which explores that in greater depth, and that would be the "Themes" section in A Song of Ice and Fire. I would encourage you to expand on the section in A Song of Ice and Fire first, and if that section gets too big, then a separate page may be appropriate. Give a summary here, but also add further information here on anything that would relate more specifically to the TV show. The TV show is just an adaptation of the books, so any in-depth treatment the ideas and themes contained in the books is more appropriate there. Hzh (talk) 11:29, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
- Following up on the discussion on my talk page, I agree with Hzh that the themes that originate with the source material should receive in-depth coverage in the article about the novel series. But this doesn't preclude us from summarizing the main points in a section in this article as well, similar to what WP:SS describes. I have nothing against trying to write a concise section about this, perhaps also incorporating material from the "plot" section that might be a better fit in a "themes" section. Sandstein 11:50, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
RfC on Oathkeeper
There's an RS-related RfC on Oathkeeper. Participation and fresh voices would be welcome. The matter concerns a single-line reference to the chapters upon which the episode was based. Darkfrog24 (talk) 01:55, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
RfC: Is Westeros.org an expert SPS?
There is an RfC at Oathkeeper regarding whether the site Westeros.org meets the criteria for an expert self-published source (and is therefore suitable for use on Wikipedia). It is being cited as a source for the statement "This episode was based on [specific chapters of] [specific book]." Darkfrog24 (talk) 23:28, 2 September 2014 (UTC)