→Father's Rights button: probably not |
Michael H 34 (talk | contribs) |
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:::(Slp1 just stated that Glenn Sacks and Dianna Thompson are fathers rights activists and therefore their statement of a "fact" is "not valid.) |
:::(Slp1 just stated that Glenn Sacks and Dianna Thompson are fathers rights activists and therefore their statement of a "fact" is "not valid.) |
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::: The sentence from the article is clearly factually incorrect. "Primarily male, white, heterosexual, (tend to be) conservative." |
::: The sentence from the article is clearly factually incorrect. "Primarily male, white, heterosexual, (tend to be) conservative." When you multiply the percentages of male (not even a majority according to two notable leaders of the FRM) x white (majority but US-centric and clearly less than 100%) x heterosexual (majority but less than 100%) x (tend to be conservative) hardly a majority (and at odds with politically diverse), you do not get a result that can be called a majority, and the word primarily is factually incorrect. [[User:Michael H 34|Michael H 34]] ([[User talk:Michael H 34|talk]]) 14:02, 5 June 2009 (UTC) Michael H 34 |
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::: Furthermore the "primarily white male" edit, is based on a US |
::: Furthermore the "primarily white male" edit, is based on a US-study is US-centric and most importantly, the sentence is not relevant (especially the term white) because it does not distinguish the FRM from the US population in general. For this reason it is clearly given undue weight. [[User:Michael H 34|Michael H 34]] ([[User talk:Michael H 34|talk]]) 14:06, 5 June 2009 (UTC) Michael H 34 |
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== Father's Rights button == |
== Father's Rights button == |
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The oppose feminism phrase
"Can you find any reliable sources that contradict the notions/ideas you have been arguing against? (e.g. pro and anti-feminist sections of the FRM)?"
(1) Which feminism do you mean? Your most recent edit to this article placed the traditional family and the idea of differing abilities among men and women as something contrary to gender equality!!! Opposition to a rebuttable presumption for shared parenting is the "enemy" of something that is contrasted with gender equality!!! Do current feminists or members of the fathers' rights movement, who support a rebuttable presumption for shared parenting, support gender equality?
(2) "No significant percentage of the movement supports a return to patriarchy" (source: Teri Stoddard) was once included in the article.
Michael H 34 (talk) 04:20, 27 October 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
Notes: Members of the fathers' rights movement distinguish between different forms of feminism: [1]
"Please, remember that there are corrupt judges out there, and that gender feminists are scary…also remember that there are good and fair judges out there, and that equity feminists generally work for, ya know, equality."
(talk) 13:55, 27 October 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
Michael, I must warn you that continuing to delete well-sourced information could get you into serious trouble. I have already pointed out I have cited four highly reliable sources for the "oppose feminism" (not enemy) edit.[2][3][4][5] There also many others that could be used.[6][7][8]. The sources cited do not define the kind of feminism involved and therefore neither can we, per WP:OR. As I have said before, if you disagree, the correct response is to find reliable sources to support your point so that we can balance the statement with another view. If you think Teri Stoddard is a reliable source, find it and we can discuss it.--Slp1 (talk) 23:33, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Please don't make threats. I remind you that you have also deleted information from a reliable source.
Your "oppose feminism" is still very confusing for readers. It creates innuendo about about an artificial wing of the fathers' rights movement and about feminism. Michael H 34 (talk) 03:08, 28 October 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
If you want to add something about how an artificial wing of the fathers' rights movement opposes feminism, then I suggest that another sentence be added such as:
"Members of the fathers' rights movement contrast gender feminists, who they describe as scary and who they compare to corrupt judges, with equity feminists, who they say support equality and who they compare to good and fair judges." [9] Michael H 34 (talk) 03:55, 28 October 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
Alright, both of you.. cut it out. Slow edit-warring is still edit-warring. Continued edit-warring will lead to one or both of you being blocked, the page being protected, or all of the above. If you have a difference of opinion, either ask for a Third Opintion, or bring it up in various forms of Dispute Resolution such as a Request for Comment. SirFozzie (talk) 18:42, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
I would like to point out that although quite a few reversions have occurred in recent days, compromises have also been reached and progress has been made.
I do feel quite strongly that (1) the Ganong - "controversy" sentence is a good sentence that is appropriate for the article and it is not in violation with any Wikipedia policy, and (2) that the phrase "oppose feminism" (a) should be deleted because it is confusing for the reader or (b) can be included along with an additional clarifying sentence. Michael H 34 (talk) 19:53, 28 October 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
- Sigh. I have been trying to get outside opinions in a variety of places, but have posted a third opinion also as you suggest.
- Michael, as I have said above, I don't oppose an additional clarifying statement or alternative viewpoint if you can find a reliable source. Unfortunately two editors at the reliable sources noticeboard have already indicated that the blog source you provided above [10] is not appropriate for sourcing here on WP.[11] --Slp1 (talk) 01:17, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
The opinions on the Reliable sources board were based on incorrect information. Glenn Sacks is the author of the statement not Garret Luttrell.
"Glenn Sacks, a leader in the fathers' rights movement, contrasts gender feminists, who he describes as scary and who he compares to corrupt judges, with equity feminists, who he says support equality and who he compares to good and fair judges." [12] Michael H 34 (talk) 15:17, 29 October 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
- Really? The article quite clearly says "by Garrett Luttrell".--Slp1 (talk) 15:55, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
I take back my assertion. I think that you're right. Michael H 34 (talk) 19:42, 29 October 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
- Yes, I think I'm right too ;-). Might it be a good idea to strike out your assertion in the other places (below and on the WP:RSN where you've made it? It might be less confusing for other editors if you do.
--Slp1 (talk) 21:34, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
Third Opinion re oppose feminism
Is this deletion [13] of the words "oppose feminism and" appropriate? The deleted words can be sourced to the following reliable sources:
- "the conservative wing of the FRM basically favors a "return to patriarchy." It is much more virulent in attacking women, especially feminists." p. 97
- "Those subscribing to this anti-feminist ideology are often called the "conservative" branch of the FRM p. 81
- "In contrast, conservative fathers' rights activists explicitly approach "radical" feminism as the enemy, and promote patriarchal notions of gender difference in parenting" p. 290
- A handful of men's and fathers' rights groups do have more flexible visions of family and gender relations. But most share the common enemy of feminism" p. 264
Thank you --Slp1 (talk) 23:43, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
I would like to point out that including "oppose feminism" and ascribing it to one artificial wing of the FRM, is not in agreement with all of the range of opinions listed above. I would also like to point out that at least one of the sources above is from a critic of the fathers' rights movement. The critic, Michael Flood, failed to distinguish between radical feminism (this is the term used by one of the authors above) and equity feminism. Michael H 34 (talk) 15:24, 29 October 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
It is the need for the distinction between "radical feminism" (this is the author's term from above) and "feminism" that requires that the following sentence be included if the phrase "oppose feminism" is also included:
"Glenn Sacks, a leader in the fathers' rights movement, contrasts gender feminists, who he describes as scary and who he compares to corrupt judges, with equity feminists, who he says support equality and who he compares to good and fair judges." [14] Michael H 34 (talk) 15:17, 29 October 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34 I took back this assertion. Garrett Lutrell is the author of the sentence. I apologize that I did not strike it sooner. Michael H 34 (talk) 22:39, 6 November 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
If this distinction is not made, then innuendo has been created about feminism.
Members of the fathers' rights movement support a rebuttable presumption for shared parenting (a position consistent with gender equality), which is supported by equity feminists but opposed by the National Organization of Women (US). If the views above are not clearly and carefully expressed then readers can be mislead and confused. Michael H 34 (talk) 15:41, 29 October 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
- I hesitate to post here, because too much back and forth scares off other editors who might help by giving an opinion. But I should point out that the words "oppose feminism and" are attributed using the words "According to these scholars...". From the citations given, it is undeniable that multiple of "these scholars" do hold the view that those of the conservative wing of the movement oppose feminism. Omitting their view about this anti-feminism would be totally contrary to our requirement for neutral point of view. Other, contrasting views from reliable sources are welcome if they can be found.--Slp1 (talk) 21:48, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
- We can hope that others will be bold enough to add their comments. I hope that you can see the multiple problems I have with including the phrase "oppose feminism." It stems from the fact that the term feminism is broad (no pun intended).
- (1) The entire fathers' rights movement supports the enactment of a rebuttable presumption for shared parenting, which is opposed by feminist organizations such as NOW. A conflict is created and confusion results, if the article reports that only one "wing" of the fathers' rights movement views feminists as opponents. Considering that these are clearly only assumptions made by scholars, there is an issue of undue weight here.
- (2) Earlier versions of this paragraph created very clear innuendo about "feminism." I am still very concerned about this. Two separate and distinct wings of the fathers' rights movement are assumed by scholars - one that supports gender equality and the other that opposes feminism. Innuendo is created about the word feminism, but there are many forms of feminism and clearer terms are required. Christina Hoff Sommers coined the terms gender feminism and equity feminism. Even one of your sources above used the term "radical feminism." Mr. Flood, the critic of the fathers' rights movement, did not choose to make the distinction, but making the choice that Mr. Flood made is not neutral in this case. Michael H 34 (talk) 23:07, 29 October 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
- As Risker and Pfhorrest have both provided third opinions, I removed the listing from the project page. — Athaenara ✉ 02:28, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
- Several (up to 5-6 now) academic sources have talked about the wings and their views: they might be right or wrong, but this viewpoint is clearly notable and encyclopedic. It is the opinion of multiple scholars that the conservative wing of the movement opposes feminism, and it is appropriate that this attributed view be included whatever our personal opinion about the accuracy of their views. If you have evidence that the entire FRM opposes feminism (which your comment seems to imply) that's great and let's include it. I suspect it won't be difficult to find sources. I'll give it a go tomorrow. However, remember that this is an international article, so we can't put much emphasis on very US-centric topics, such as NOW. If you have evidence that the FRM differentiates between gender and equity feminism, let's have that information too and we can include it. --Slp1 (talk) 05:15, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Concerns about WP:NPOV
I've noticed some changes in this article over the last few days, as displayed here, that indicate that there has been a noticeable shift from a relatively neutral point of view in this article, to one that subtly shifts the balance. For example, the discussion of the Collier/Sheldon material is clumsy and oppositional. There is now a link to Backlash: The Undeclared War Against American Women, a book that does not appear in the list of references, purportedly discussing its point of view; as best I can tell, this is a WP:SYNTH extrapolation from the Guardian article. There is a significant difference between "denial of equal rights" and "violated their rights". Flood's paper does state that the practices of many (but not all) fathers' rights groups are harmful to the fathers; it goes far beyond saying they are "not helpful".
This is just a quick read of the recent changes in this article, and I see some other areas that require work to come back in line with the references. There's a problem when there are single sentences that have 5-7 separate references; either they are generalizing too much, or there is an element of synthesis.
Let's get this article back on track, folks. My specialty is in ensuring that WP:V and WP:NPOV are followed scrupulously, regardless of subject, and I don't play favourites between any particular perspective. I propose, to start, that all of the changes in the diff I've provided above be thoroughly and completely discussed; I see that some of that discussion is already taking place above. I've also asked a couple of other administrators and experienced editors to peek in at this article and provide some suggestions. Risker (talk) 06:13, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for your comments. I have made changes consistent with them. Michael H 34 (talk) 15:27, 29 October 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
- Yes, thank you Risker. Other voices and opinions are very welcome and helpful. And thank you Michael, for this [15] and this [16] edits, which in my view now accurately reflect the sources given. As suggested by Risker I will remove some of the citations, leaving the clearest source texts in place.
- I suggest that we work now work one section at a time. I too am concerned by the Collier/Sheldon section, and do not feel that merely removing the Faludi link solves the problem. Perhaps not surprisingly since the text was mainly written by me, I feel that the "before" text here [17] is of more NPOV, giving both views in sourced, balance and neutral way. The current version not so subtly dismisses one opinion by stating that Collier and Sheldon "do not agree" with it. And in fact, this " do not agree" is also not an appropriate reflection of the source, since C and S say that there "are limits to the ideas of backlash and 'gender wars'", and that "the image of backlash fails to capture the complex realities of contemporary family life", which is not the same as not agreeing with the view at all. Thoughts? --Slp1 (talk) 21:30, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
I made a suggested edit to address this concern. In my view, balance between the two views is not sourced and therefore balance between the two views contradicts undue weight. I agree though that "do not agree" was too strong a phrase, and so I made a change. Michael H 34 (talk) 23:24, 29 October 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
- It is not clear to me how you could know whether the balance between the two views is "not sourced" since, as far as I am aware, you don't have access to the Collier and Sheldon book, which was one of the citations given. Suffice to say, they do describe the view in considerable detail on p 7-8, while summarizing their own on p. 9. In addition, I have provided another citation from a commentator who clearly subscribes to this viewpoint:"These [FR] groups are among the most vocal and publicised spearheads in the backlash against feminism." I made an edit to address my concerns of balance and have added citations so that the edit can be verified by anybody who cares to do so. --Slp1 (talk) 23:15, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
- Michael H has made this edit, [18] changing the neutral "some commentators" to "critics of the fathers' rights movements" in introducing the "backlash/gender wars" set of views. His reasonings for this edit are described [19] and here [20]. This edit appears to me to be not only unverifiable, but an attempt to introduce POV by marginalizing one viewpoint, one of a series of edits to this section where there has been an attempt to do this.[21][22][23].
- Reliable sources say that this "backlash" and "gender/sex wars" view, is not proposed solely by 'critics of the fathers' rights movement', but in fact is "popular in some parts of the media"[24], is subscribed to by "A number of authors" (Collier and Sheldon p. 7) , and even used FR groups themselves: "The rhetoric of "sex wars" has become a common theme both in the rhetoric of such [anti-feminist FR] groups and in much of the media reporting the debates and issues concerning father's rights." (Collier and Sheldon p. 8). That only "critics of the father's rights movement" propose this view thus appears unverifiable original research, and should be deleted as such.--Slp1 (talk) 15:52, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
"Reliable sources say that this "backlash" and "gender/sex wars" view."
- (1) The [rise of the movement as a] backlash... and the [existence of] a gender/sex war are two different things. You are conflating these separate things into one "view."
- (2) Your claim that a "number of authors" and "members of the media" is different from critics of the fathers' rights movement has two problems: (a) backlash and gender war are two different things and (b) a "number of authors" and "members of the media" is not inconsistent with "critics of the fathers' rights movement."
- (3) Members of the fathers' rights movement do not view their movement as a "backlash" to gains made by women. Members of the fathers' rights movement view the term backlash as rhetoric used by gender feminists but not equity feminists.
- (4) One of the sources clearly show the term backlash as being connected with critics of the fathers' rights movement.
- (5) While you may be arguing on this page that members of the fathers' rights movement subscribe to the gender war view, I note that the article already includes a sentence stating that "members of the fathers' rights movement use rhetoric."
- (6) Pfhorrest suggested below that the backlash view is an "accusation" against the fathers' rights movement: "Some (gender feminists?) accuse the father's rights movement (the conservative branch especially?) of being a backlash against feminism." Michael H 34 (talk) 22:46, 6 November 2008 (UTC) Michel H 34
- Michael, I am not trying to claim or argue anything except that we need to faithfully reflect our sources. Collier and Sheldon mention the gender wars and backlash in the same breath, not me. Collier and Sheldon report that this view is held by the media/among a number of authors/the FRM, not me. What Collier and Sheldon don't say is that this view is held by "critics of the FRM". Nor does anybody else that I know of. Clearly some who hold this view seem to be 'critics of the FRM' but are all of them 'critics'? Are even most of them 'critics'? Or is it just an isolated few? I have no idea, but in any case, my and your and Pfhorrest's opinions/educated guesses on the matter are irrelevant. We have to stick closely to the sources that we have, which at the moment do not support the edit that this is a view held only by critics of the FRM movement. If there is a reliable source that attributes the backlash/gender war view(s) to opponents of movement let's have it, and of course the sentence can be modified to include the new information. --Slp1 (talk) 12:44, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
As an explanation of the rise of the FRM, the term backlash is an accusation based on the following idea: The government must protect us from those "dangerous" members of the fathers' rights movement, who will try to whip us cruelly. Michael H 34 (talk) 20:04, 7 November 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
- What is your source, for this edit, Michael?[25] I requested a reliable source stating that the backlash and/or gender view is the view of critics, and instead you have simply reinserted a modification of your (to my mind unsourced POV) edit stating that "critics of the the movement" hold these views. This time you have separated the attribution of the "backlash" view and the "gender wars" theory, using the same three references to cite both. Can you please provide the quotations from the texts cited that make clear that it is only critics that subscribe to the backlash view, while both critics and other commentators subscribe to the 'gender wars' view? Thank you. --Slp1 (talk) 03:50, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
You added all three sources. Ciara Doyle is clearly a critic of the fathers' rights movement. She states that she is unapologetically polemical. Are we supposed to ignore this statement? Collier and Sheldon are the authors of the other two sources, and they state that people hold this view. Critics of the fathers' rights movement are people and there is no conflict between the sources.
If people who are not critics of the FRM hold the view that the rise of the movement is the result of backlash, then it is you who should find the source. If you do find a reliable source, then I will agree to change the sentence. Michael H 34 (talk) 01:02, 9 November 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
- Actually, no, you have to justify your edits since you are the one who has changed the sentence. "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material" WP:V. And I have I given you the sources to justify this edit above[26] and of course in the article itself. But it seems you didn't check them. So to spell it out once again. "One explanation that has proved attractive to some parts of the media is the idea of "backlash""[27], "A number of authors have sought an explanation for this phenomenon in the compelling pictures of backlash" Collier and Sheldon p.7. Now please justify your edit that critics are the only one who hold the backlash view or revert your edit. And please avoid faulty logic such as "Critics of the fathers' rights movement are people and there is no conflict between the sources". Broccoli is a vegetable, but not all vegetables are broccoli. Critics of the fathers rights movement are certainly people, but not all people are critics of the FRM. Find some sources. --Slp1 (talk) 02:09, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
- Actually no, it is very clear that you have to justify your edit since you are the one who changed the sentences after I edited them based on justification that has not yet been challenged.
- Are you trying to suggest that Ciara Doyle is not a critic of the fathers' rights movement?
- Are you suggesting that other authors cannot be critics of the fathers' rights movement?
- In addition, why did Collier qualify his statement about the media with the word some? This is because some, but not all parts of the media are critics of the fathers' rights movement. The use of the word some to qualify his statement adds support to my version of these two sentences. Michael H 34 (talk) 15:08, 10 November 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
- You are the last editor to edit that sentence, Michael. You are the one who has to provide verification of your edit. But to answer your questions. Yes, Doyle would be classified as a critic. So it is certainly verifiable that critics form a portion of those who hold the backlash view. However, while it is certainly possible that the "a number of authors" and the "some media" referred to by C and S are all be critics of the movement, but it is equally possible that they are not. The C and S say nothing about it either way. Red Herring questions "Are you suggesting that other authors cannot be critics of the FRM?" are based on fallacies as I have indicated above. If you want to argue that only "critics" hold this view, then you need to provide some concrete evidence for this statement. --Slp1 (talk) 16:36, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
Your characterization of my opinion as being based on a red herring and fallacies is noted as another attempt to diminish the weight of my views, and an example of a red herring. However, as you point out, C&S were not specific about who subscribed to the belief that the rise of the movement is the result of backlash to increasing female power. We can either characterize Ciara Doyle as a critic of the FRM or we can ignore the characterization that she is a critic of the FRM. I believe that the former is more appropriate. If you can find another author who states that the rise of the FRM is a result of backlash to the rise of the power of women, and if that author can reasonably be considered not to be a critic of the fathers' rights movement, then I will agree to a change. Michael H 34 (talk) 21:40, 10 November 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
- In my view, I did justify the edit, and you agreed that Ciara Doyle was a critic of the fathers' rights movement. Michael H 34 (talk) 15:36, 11 November 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
An attempt at consensus
Hello everyone. I've been watching this page since I added the Rights template to it, and so I've been observing this dispute here. I am by no means an expert on this topic, but I thought I'd chime in with a neutral third party's point of view on what I believe would be a viable consensus between both parties. From the article and this discussion here, there seems to be rough agreement that:
- There are, at least in some views, two branches of the father's rights movement: a "conservative" branch and a "liberal" branch.
- The "conservative" branch:
- is concerned with the preservation of the "traditional family" (what some feminists might call "patriarchy")
- opposes feminism in general for its encroachment thereupon, making no distinction between different types of feminism.
- The "liberal" branch:
- is concerned with preventing and eliminating inequalities disfavoring fathers
- distinguishes between two branches of feminism:
- Gender feminism, which it opposes, and accuses of misandry and gynocentrism.
- Equity feminism, which it supports, sharing largely similar goals of equality.
- The "conservative" branch:
(Stated another, more concise and perhaps even more neutral way: conflict exists between the "conservative" branch of the FRM and all feminists, and between gender feminists and all of the FRM, but not between equity feminists and the "liberal" branch of the FRM).
Further:
- Some (gender feminists?) accuse the father's rights movement (the conservative branch especially?) of being a backlash against feminism.
- Others dispute that view.
If both sides of this dispute agree to all of the above, which I suspect they will, and you can supply me with reliable sources for all of these component points, I will gladly volunteer to go through the article and adjust things as necessary to achieve neutrality. -Pfhorrest (talk) 01:47, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
- Thank you very much for your comments here, Pfhorrest. It really is great to get some other voices involved. My personal preference is generally to start with the sources, and write material from them, so this is a different approach. However, I think the problem is that based on the sources I know about, only part of what you have written above is actually sourceable from reliable sources. For example, we have no reliable sources talking about the gender feminism/equity feminism aspects in relation to the FRM. I don't know if you're willing, but p. 97-8 of this book available on googlebooks [29] provides the most detailed explanation of the two wings if you wanted to read it. It might help to see what we are trying to summarize. --Slp1 (talk) 02:19, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
I take the Buddhist view here. There are no two wings of the Fathers' rights movement.
Here's an interesting article about Wikipedia and the meaning of "truth" from Technology Review: [30] Michael H 34 (talk) 03:22, 30 October 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
Ok, so it seems that Michael denies any distinction between two branches of the FRM, and Slp questions the reliability of sources regarding the FRM's distinguishing between two types of feminism.
In response to the former: Michael, you are of course entitled to your opinion, but Slp has provided a source[31] which shows that at least someone holds there to be two branches to the FRM. So unless you can show the unreliability of that source, that view should be included in the article (though of course qualified as someone's view, not necessarily The Truth; and if you have another source which disputes that view, we should include that as well).
In response to the latter: Slp, Michael has provided a source[32] which shows that at least someone in the FRM distinguishes between gender and equity types of feminism. Since you've already replied to him about that and have clearly read it, I reason you must question its reliability. I would like to ask on what criteria exactly you deny its notability, since it would be good, even if for nothing else than the sake of compromise, to include that position if there is no policy violation in doing so. -Pfhorrest (talk) 05:10, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks Phhorrest. Yes, I asked at the WP:RSN (as noted above) who determined that the blog post would not be an appropriate inclusion: Garrett Luttrell is a non-notable blogger and using his view would be giving WP:UNDUE weight to it.[33]. As I have said several times, I would be more than happy for reliably sourced contrasting views to be included, but to date none has been found. FYI, and for what its worth, there is more than one reliable source talking about the wings (and the anti-feminism of one branch, which has been a particular bone of contention.) I listed the main ones in this post [34] with some of the key supporting phrases (and in the article of course).--Slp1 (talk) 11:24, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
Ordering of "Main Issues" section
I have boldly moved the "Government" and "No-fault divorce" sections lower in the "Main issues" section of the article. I believe that having them as the first and second sections gave undue weight to them given that sources seem to talk about joint custody, visitation, child support, parental alienation, allegations of violence etc as the main issues of the movement [35][36][37]. While the no-fault divorce section is obviously about divorce, most sources seem to talk about NF Divorce mainly in the context of development of the movement [38] rather than as a more prominent area of campaigning than the child custody issues etc. I am very open to being corrected on this matter, of course. --Slp1 (talk) 18:31, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
There's nothing wrong with acting boldly! In my opinion, it is acceptable to demote no-fault divorce in relation to the other issues.
Please consider though that it is Fathers' rights and government (and not anything else) to which all of the main issues are connected. One could say that Fathers' rights and government is the only main issue, and all of the other issues are particular issues related to Fathers' rights and government. Michael H 34 (talk) 16:22, 3 November 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
Latest edits
- I'm guessing that this edit [39], citing Kaye and Tolmie to support a phrase about Baskerville is a typo. They don't mention Baskerville at all.
- Could you possibly give me the quote from Kaye and Tolmie to verify your addition here [40] that "the parent initiating the divorce" is viewed as the deserting parent?
- This edit,[41] deleting well-sourced information about the harassment/violence tactics of some members of the movement and replacing it with a positive spin indicating that some groups have condemned such things, is distinctly POV, and not representative of Flood nor of the available sources. I note that other reliably sourced evidence of violence and harassment by members of the movement has also been removed in the past year.--Slp1 (talk) 00:40, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
- Your assertions are a defense of original research. I changed the edit because it was clearly based on original research. The Black Shirts were connected to fathers' rights groups by editors here ("fathers group" and "militant mens group" is not the same as a fathers' rights groups) and not by Mr. Flood or by the online newspaper. The information that I replaced it with was clearly sourced by Mr. Flood (whether or not you prefer to call it "spin") and is not the result of original research. Please review the sources. Thank you, Michael H 34 (talk) 16:19, 4 November 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
- I did review the sources. Did you? Specifically, did you read the Herald Sun article entitled "Stalker: lesson learned" that I cited? I guess not, because if you had then you would have seen that it reads "Blackshirts leader John Abbott has vowed to mend his protesting ways after being spared jail for stalking. The outspoken fathers' rights campaigner, who was sentenced by a County Court judge to a suspended term of four months, said he had learned his lesson." It really is MOST inappropriate to accuse people of original research without reading the sources involved. If you don't have access to them, then request the information you require here on the talkpage before making accusations. And if you want further confirmation that the Blackshirts is viewed as a fathers' rights group see this [42], this [43] and even Flood's own website [44] --Slp1 (talk) 22:31, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
This is from Kaye and Tolmie:
A number of groups283 support the reintroduction of the concept of fault into divorce proceedings. The Family Law Reform Association NSW Inc seems to go further and favour the introduction of considerations of fault into the counselling process and/or child custody decisions when it submits that "counsellors shouldn't support the parent who has taken the child from the marriage".284 Lone Fathers also argues that the deserting parent should be given less consideration “before the Family Court", and that sole parenting should be awarded to the parent who "most responsible” during the separation, but does not indicate how responsibility is to be measured or whether it. Considered as it is manifested towards the children or towards the other spouse.285
Implicit in some of these submissions appears to be the feeling that women are at fault for leaving their marriages286 and that, when fault is not factored into property and custody proceedings, this behaviour is either encouraged, or men fail to get appropriate recognition of their innocence. For example, the Non-Custodial Parents Reform Group argues that many non-custodial parents are forced out of marriage by the custodial parent and that the current family law system makes a farce of marriage because the non-custodial parent then loses the marriage, the bulk of their property and life savings, and access to the children without any compensation.287 Michael H 34 (talk) 17:29, 4 November 2008 (UTC) Michel H 34
- There is nothing in this section about Fathers' rights groups thinking that the "parent initiating the divorce" should be given less consideration before the family court. There is no mention of initiating divorce at all. --Slp1 (talk) 22:31, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
- There are two types of deserting parents and including the words "the parent initiating the divorce" is merely clarifying for the reader. Some parents abandon the other parent to raise the children while other parents leave the marriage and use the government to take the children. I see your point though and I will make an edit. Michael H 34 (talk) 00:11, 5 November 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
- [45] Michael, it is still totally unverifiable, though thanks for trying. Initiating a divorce is not the same as being a deserting parent. A "deserting" parent is the parent who leaves the house. The parent who actually initiates divorce proceedings could be the person who leaves or the person who is left behind. K and T don't say a thing about what FRA think about the person who actually initiates divorce in this section.--Slp1 (talk) 00:22, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
- There are two types of deserting parents and including the words "the parent initiating the divorce" is merely clarifying for the reader. Some parents abandon the other parent to raise the children while other parents leave the marriage and use the government to take the children. I see your point though and I will make an edit. Michael H 34 (talk) 00:11, 5 November 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
- I recall that previously on this page you enlightened me about what Collier meant by the facts of power. Please trust me here. In this case, the Lone Fathers consider mothers who initiate divorce as deserting their marriage. If I am not correct about this, then the quote is completely out of place within the paragraph. Why then do the authors include this quote in this paragraph? Michael H 34 (talk) 00:29, 5 November 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
- Reference to "deserting" is right after "counsellors shouldn't support the parent who has taken the child from the marriage". Michael H 34 (talk) 00:31, 5 November 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
- Trust has nothing to do with it, Michael. You may well be right. But the point is that K and T do not say that "Lone Fathers consider mothers who initiate divorce as deserting their marriage". It says that the Lone Fathers argue "that the "deserting parent" should be given less consideration before the Family Court". Part of the problem here may be the ambiguity of 'deserting parent' phrase. You seem to be interpreting it as deserting the marriage, while I interpret it as deserting the home/children. Given my interpretation, a parent could certainly desert the home/children but not actually initiate the divorce per se. For example one parent could leave because they are having an affair, and the affronted spouse might initiate the divorce. Deserting and initiating divorce are not synonymous. K and T do not talk about initiating divorce at all. If it's not there, we can't add it. --Slp1 (talk) 00:59, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
- "For example one parent could leave because they are having an affair, and the affronted spouse might initiate the divorce." These fathers' rights activists would respond that the initiation of divorce in your hypothetical case could and would be justified based on the "fault" of the unfaithful spouse who would be seen as having "deserted" the marriage first.
- "Truth has nothing to do with it." My view is that truth does matter based on the Wikipedia policy of ignore all rules. In my view it is not acceptable, and a disservice to the reader, to use Wikipedia policy to justify being ambiguous and unclear.
- "Part of the problem here may be the ambiguity of 'deserting parent' phrase." Yes, and I have added clarification to include both meanings by adding the parenthetical phrase: (including the parent who initiates the divorce). I will make another edit to be even clearer. Michael H 34 (talk) 15:44, 5 November 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
(outdent) I actually said "trust has nothing to do with it" not "truth". As I have explained many times, Wikipedia seeks to summarize the best available sources out there about article topics. We are not here to improve on them. In the sources cited I see nothing at all about who is considered to be a deserting parent. I certainly trust and believe that you feel you are clearing up ambiguity, but the fact is that you are inserting your own original research about the matter, since you have produced no reliable source for the statement. You would like Wikipedia to "trust" that you have the truth about the opinions of FR activists, and that adding this view makes things clearer for readers. But we can't and it doesn't. --Slp1 (talk) 04:42, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
"But we can't and it doesn't." Slp1, in my view you are attempting to use Wikipedia policy to obfuscate and confuse readers. Why?
You have admitted to the ambiguity of the deserting parent phrase and you have provided no reason why a statement about deserting parents based on another interpretation would be included by Kaye and Tolmie in a section about no-fault divorce. My clarification of what is meant by deserting parent puts these Australian members of the FRM in agreement with the Libertarian cited by Steven Baskerville.
I am encouraged to improve the article. I have and I will. Michael H 34 (talk) 00:24, 9 November 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
- Please read more closely. I have repeatedly explained to you why you cannot "clarify" or "improve" the article with your original research/opinion. If Baskerville really talks about what the Australian members of the FRM movement mean by "deserting fathers" then provide the citation and I will be delighted to accept its inclusion. --Slp1 (talk) 02:16, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
It is only your claim that it is original research. It is very obvious to me what is meant by deserting in this case. Once again, you have not explained why the "deserting" sentence exists directly after the sentence that includes "counsellors shouldn't support the parent who has taken the child from the marriage". Once again I note your willingness to use Wikipedia policy to try prevent others from improving the article. Michael H 34 (talk) 14:55, 10 November 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
- There is nothing at all about deserting parents including those initiate "a divorce without justification" in your highlighted statement "counsellors shouldn't support the parent who has taken the child from the marriage".
- You said: "It is very obvious to me what is meant by deserting in this case". Precisely. It is obvious to you, but it is not contained in the source cited. This is exactly what original research is, which does not improve any article, as has already been pointed out to you by another editor onn this page [46]--Slp1 (talk) 17:21, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
- In your view, the clarification for the reader is original research. In my view, it is not original research, but rather, it is a clarification for the reader. As editors we have the benefit of context from the source, but the reader does not have this benefit. Again, you have failed to provide a context of the word "deserting" from the source which is contrary to the clarification that I provided for the reader. Michael H 34 (talk) 21:17, 10 November 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
Some changes
Obviously, for anyone watching the page, I've made some changes. A lot of it is pretty simple stuff - adjusting references/footnotes and WP:MOS stuff. I've yet to read through the debate because the issues I tried to correct seemed pretty simple and inarguable. My more recent edits would not be seen this way - I've adjusted the lead and made some changes to history. There's a bunch of basic wording, sourcing and placement issues that need to be addressed and for the most part I don't believe they'll be controversial. But anyway, I'll try to get to the talk page and not make any blatantly controversial edits; I see the changes I'm making as pretty basic (though no-one may agree with me) and am trying to adjust based on the sources that are proximal and don't require interpretation or background knowledge. We'll see how successful I am. Anyway, out of time, leaving. WLU (t) (c) (rules - simple rules) 21:22, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
- In my opinion, you did a very good job. Well done. Michael H 34 (talk) 15:29, 11 November 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
- Yes, thanks. As you work away on this, I have a couple thoughts to add to the mix:
- I support the emphasis on reliable, scholarly, secondary sources as much as possible. Although we made an editorial decision a while ago that primary sources such as the websites of advocacy groups (for and against) could be used, these should be replaced by secondary sources as much as possible, since these have proved to be available. For most of the article this shouldn't be too difficult and I will do my best to find these.
- A related issue is that statements of belief about various issues by "members of the fathers' rights movement" or "critics of the movement" are often cited to only one reference, and when looked at closely appear reflect the opinion of one person or group. I think it would be good to confirm that these really are representative beliefs of the movement or critics, and secondary sources should help with this too.
- Baskerville is extensively cited here. He has the advantage of being an academic (at the conservative Patrick Henry College) and published by a reliable source. However, it concerns me that the book has a strong US-focus [47]. In two cases, No fault divorce and Government involvement, whole sections are cited (mainly or entirely) to his book. I am worried about one country-specific source being cited as the attitudes of the FRM without much (or any) additional corroboration. Once again, looking for sourcing might help.--Slp1 (talk) 22:49, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, thanks. As you work away on this, I have a couple thoughts to add to the mix:
I would add that I disagree with the recreation of a "Criticism" section. These sections are deprecated per WP:STRUCTURE and WP:CRIT --Slp1 (talk) 23:15, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
[After quoting an article by Melanie Phillips, a journalist from England, Baskerville states the following: "All this is usually dismissed, when it is recognized as at all, as the product of 'prejudice' or 'gender bias'. Such jargon does not begin to explain what is taking place. What we confront here is a bureacratic machine of a kind that has never before been seen in the United States or the other English-speaking democracies." Taken Into Custody... pages 18-19 Michael H 34 (talk) 21:46, 15 November 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
The words "throughout the United States and other democracies" was included in the first paraphrased sentence of the section titled Government Involvement. I added them to the article. Michael H 34 (talk) 22:58, 15 November 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
- Yes, Baskerville mentions other countries, but that doesn't mean that the book isn't highly US centric. The front inside cover makes this clear: "Why is the American Family in crisis? Political scientist Stephen Baskerville argues that the most direct cause is the divorce industry itself: a corrupt government run system that abuses parents and children, runs rampant over civil liberties, steals the wealth of families and is accountable to noone. Nothing like this has ever happened before in America." One of 6 chapters is even entitled "Divorce and the Constitution". However, the US-centric nature of the book is only a minor part of my reservations about this material. We currently have two whole sections cited entirely (or almost entirely) to the views of one man. Unless we can find evidence that these views are more widely held, then I think this is a clear case of giving undue weight to a topic. --Slp1 (talk) 04:01, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
- The words "throughout the United States and other democracies" was used. I also disagree with your other view as well. Michael H 34 (talk) 01:25, 17 November 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
- The ACFC sponsored a public relations campaign for Taken Into Custody: The War Against Fathers' Marriage and the Family, Dr. Baskerville's book. [48] The first paraphrased sentence in the section titled Government Involvement (Taken Into Custody... - page 18) starts, "The argument of this book is that governments throughout the United States and other democracies...." Michael H 34 (talk) 02:29, 17 November 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
- On the one hand we have "ACFC is continuing to publicize and promote Taken Into Custody: The War Against Fathers, Marriage, and the Family, by ACFC president Stephen Baskerville." and on the other we have "The argument of this book is that governments throughout the United States and other democracies...." I submit that ACFC would not "publicize and promote" an "important breakthrough" book, if they did not agree with the stated argument of the book. Michael H 34 (talk) 02:38, 17 November 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
- I don't find it at all surprising that ACFC is supporting and is helping promote a book by their president. In fact would be very surprising if they weren't. But if we are going to have whole sections about 'government involvement' and 'no-fault divorce' we need to find more voices saying that this is an important concern for the FRM. After all, if it is an important viewpoint of the FRM then it should be easy to find other references saying similar things.(see WP:UNDUE). --Slp1 (talk) 13:27, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
I view the sections about Government Involvement and No-fault divorce as very important. To address your concern, I willingly accepted your move of these sections toward the bottom of the article, giving them less weight. I thank you for adding the information about No-fault divorce from Kaye and Tolmie. Michael H 34 (talk) 16:36, 17 November 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
[49] Michael H 34 (talk) 18:21, 17 November 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
[50] Michael H 34 (talk) 23:43, 17 November 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
- I apologize for the delay in responding. I have been very busy. I realize that you think that these sections are important, but our personal opinions as editors are not really the point here. When we are looking at undue weight issues, we have to see whether a view is considered significant by reliable sources, and by the prevalence of those opinions. WP:UNDUE is very clear about this. As currently written and sourced it is clear that in the no-fault divorce and government involvement sections, we are in danger of giving undue weight to the views of one man. It may well be there are other sources saying similar things about these subjects being discussed etc by members of the FRM (other than Baskerville). I will certainly search for confirming sources in the various material I have, just as I did when I found the Kaye and Tolmie material for part of the no-fault divorce section. I would encourage you to do the same. --Slp1 (talk) 03:20, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
- Hi Michael. Thank you for trying to find additional citations, but since the article has been critiqued by others for its sourcing and verifiability I have am going to express some concerns. Let's start with the first one.
- Do you have any evidence that Nathanson and Young are members of the fathers' rights movement as these edits suggest?[51][52] I myself can't find an affiliation of any kind. --Slp1 (talk) 02:46, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
I suggest that the book itself is clear evidence. Baskerville makes the same assertion about how the legal system fosters cynicism. Michael H 34 (talk) 20:31, 5 December 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
This may be evidence as well: [53] Michael H 34 (talk) 20:35, 5 December 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
Notes: [54] Michael H 34 (talk) 20:22, 5 December 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
- We can't say that a person is a member of the FR movement without clearer evidence than this. The book doesn't say that they are members, and their appearance at a men's conference [55] to talk about boy's coming of age in today's society doesn't show that they are either. --Slp1 (talk) 02:26, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
- The conference was filed by Glenn Sacks under several categories including fathers' rights. This and based on what they have written, I cannot honestly exclude Nathanson and Young as members of the fathers' rights movement. Michael H 34 (talk) 03:37, 7 December 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
- This is a question of inclusion, not exclusion. If the article is going to claim N and Y as members of the FRM then we need positive evidence that they are members of the movement. How Glenn Sacks chooses to file his posts and your personal opinion of their writings is not enough unfortunately. Is there a reliable source that says that N and Y belong to a FR group or support the movement in some other way? Do N and Y mention that they are involved in one of their books or on a website they write on? --Slp1 (talk) 13:31, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
- Although you labeled the conference as a men's conference, you left out the word equality. Glenn Sacks included fathers' rights as one of the categories for the conference, and Matt O'Connor, Glenn Sacks and Stephen Baskerville spoke at the Third National Men's Equality Conference. In my view, the presentation by Nathanson and Young at the Third National Men's Equality Conference and Legalizing Misandry.... both support the FRM. This is enough evidence in my view, but I'll try to find additional support. Michael H 34 (talk) 14:22, 7 December 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
- Please do find additional support. Speaking at a Men's Equality conference on "Boys and the Boy Crisis", with the specific talk title "Coming of Age as a Villain: What Young Men Need to Know in a Misandric World") shows nothing about their membership in the fathers' rights movement. In any case, the text currently reads as if N and Y agree with the statements about the government having a campaign against fathers, destroying families, undermining parents, threatening marriage, devastating the lives of children, etc etc, when on p. 143 [56] they say nothing of the sort. What they do say that the so-called criminalization of fathers under the auspices of pursuing "deadbeat dads" is a situation that "would endanger any free society", a much more specific argument. The sentence as written seems to be clear example of original synthesis and failed verifiability. --Slp1 (talk) 15:41, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
Is there a Wikipedia Policy that requires that an entire sentence be supported by a citation at the end of the sentence? Michael H 34 (talk) 15:08, 8 December 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
"In any case, the text currently reads as if N and Y agree...." I disagree with you. Nathanson and Young are not identified in the sentence. Please remove the tag. Michael H 34 (talk) 15:40, 8 December 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
- per WP:V "The source cited must clearly support the information as it is presented in the article". The disputed sentence [57] is introduced by the phrase, "Members of the fathers' rights movement state" (note the plural) and this is followed by statements about the government having a campaign against fathers, destroying families etc etc. The two citations given are those of Baskerville, and Nathanson and Young, and to passages in which they describe their own opinions, not those of the FRM per se. N and Y are identified here by virtue of the plural of "Members". The problems are that there is no evidence
- that N and Y are viewed by by independent sources as members of the fathers' rights movement, or that they view themselves as such; or
- that N and Y support the idea that the government is organizing a campaign against fathers, undermining parents, threatening marriage etc.
- The only part of the sentence that is verifiable from N and Y is, as I pointed out above, the "would endanger any free society" part, but this is referring to the specific issue of the criminalization of 'deadbeat dads', not to the larger issues that you have linked it to. This is WP:SYNTH, joining two verifiable sources to make a new point. This post,[58] about a previous edit you made, at the No original research noticeboard might help explain the issues I am having, and that I am not alone in these concerns. On the positive side, please note that I consider this edit [59] a helpful one that is verifiable and does not contain synthesis. And I do appreciate the work you are putting into trying to additional sources to support these sections.
- I will remove the tag but with it the material that appears to unverifiable synthesis. Since "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material" (WP:V), if you disagree, please get consensus before you restore it. You may well find other sources that will convince, (and I will look too) or you could ask for another opinion at the WP:NORN. I will happily abide by any consensus achieved here or elsewhere.--Slp1 (talk) 17:03, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
- per WP:V "The source cited must clearly support the information as it is presented in the article". The disputed sentence [57] is introduced by the phrase, "Members of the fathers' rights movement state" (note the plural) and this is followed by statements about the government having a campaign against fathers, destroying families etc etc. The two citations given are those of Baskerville, and Nathanson and Young, and to passages in which they describe their own opinions, not those of the FRM per se. N and Y are identified here by virtue of the plural of "Members". The problems are that there is no evidence
The sentence stated that the government is endangering a free society, and it is the government that criminalizes fathers. In my view, this was not synthesis. I will also reiterate that to me, Legalizing Misandry... by virtue of its criticism of the legal system and family law alone, is clear and convincing evidence that N & Y are members of the fathers' rights movement. Michael H 34 (talk) 18:07, 8 December 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
- Not really. The full sentence is "This [the monitoring of fathers who owe child support] is a situation that would endanger any free society", not as you have stated above. But even if the sentence did say what you claim, the previous version would still be unverifiable since N and Y say nothing about "a campaign against fathers and fatherhood" which they were previously being cited as saying. --Slp1 (talk) 18:50, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
- I disagree with you that a citation must support an entire sentence. In one view, we have N & Y asserting that [the government's monitoring of citizens] creates a situation that endangers a free society, and in another we have N & Y asserting that [the monitoring of citizens] endangers a free society. The term "Legalizing" in the title of the book provides some support for the former, but I'll agree with the consensus decision. I should point out that it is all citizens who are monitored. Michael H 34 (talk) 20:42, 8 December 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
- Well the problem, as I have indicated, what less to do with the issue of how you chose to interpret the "free society" phrase, and more to do with the fact that the N&Y book does not corroborate the "campaign against fathers and fatherhood" concept. If you disagree that "Sources should directly support the information as it is presented in an article" then you might want to try to change the policy at WP:V. N&Y didn't support the information in this case, and I thank you for accepting this. In the meantime, can you please provide the phrases from one or more of the citations cited that justify this edit[60] that some FRM support the end of the no-fault principle in child custody (as opposed to divorce) decisions? I removed the child custody part because I couldn't find anything to verify it in the sources cited, but maybe I have missed something. Thank you. --Slp1 (talk) 01:58, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
I agree that the "campaign on fathers and fatherhood" is a major component of the sentence.
The edit in the no-fault section included the following actions: (1) One sentence was separated into two sentences in order to avoid the inference that all members of the fathers' rights movement either support limitations on no-fault divorce when children are involved or support the elimination of the no-fault principle and (2) the edit added the words "child custody and" prior to divorce decisions.
In section 2.1, the Cheltenham Group defined "No-fault principles" as follows:
2.1 ‘No-fault divorce’ principle
A ‘no-fault divorce’ system has been introduced by the senior judges, against the principles laid down by Parliament in the written laws, and without public approval or knowledge, specifically :
with respect to custody of children (since 1948, Allen v Allen, CoA) that mothers are given custody of children after separation/divorce, no matter what their behaviour in the case.... Michael H 34 (talk) 15:28, 9 December 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34
Deletions of well-sourced material
In the last few days, there have once again been significant deletions of well-sourced material from this article, material sourced to multiple high quality academic sources; these deletions are, in my opinion, accompanied by misleading edit summaries:
- response: there were three citations given, not just one as the edit summary implies; Messner states "FR activists who are predominately white, middle or working class...."[61]; Parker and Brott say that they "tend to be politically conservative, but share no single set of political views"[62]; and Crowley devotes an entire chapter of her book on the sociodemographic analysis of the movement; it is not available online, but her detailed findings support the statement above; an interview with her confirming this in part at least can be found here [63] One sentence about the composition of the FR movement is a significant aspect of this article, can hardly be described as undue weight, has been well sourced from multiple highly reliable sources, and should not be deleted without consensus obtained here on the talkpage.
- response: if it is so unimportant and a dilution then why would this issue be mentioned by at least 4 reliable, mainstream academic sources in their discussions of the movement? Once again, get a consensus from other editors for the deletion of this well-sourced material, notable material. Note that I believe it should be included, as presumably does User:WLU who moulded it into its current form, as well as User:pfhorrest, who responded to a third opinion request about this issue.[64] --Slp1 (talk) 23:18, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
- Michael H has deleted the well-sourced material again, without responding to any of the concerns expressed here, and without an edit summary. I will give a certain period for him to explain or revert himself, and if there is no response will again request a third opinion on this matter, unless any other editor feels like giving their opinion in the interim.--Slp1 (talk) 02:49, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
Deletions of well-sourced material which may or may not be worthy for inclusion in the article
- Once again, material is defended simply because it is called well-sourced. At least these edits are not of the type: "men are encouraged to be fathers when they can't." However, there is no value in including these sentences, and this is the main reason why they were deleted. They were deleted to improve the article.
- (1) The "primarily white, middle-class, men..." was cherry-picked from a sentence written by Messner, who was making a different point, possibly to justify the way that fathers are treated. (In other words, it's okay for society to treat fathers the way it does because men are privileged.)
- (2) "Primarily white, middle-class, men..." is not necessarily true for fathers' rights groups in certain countries, and thus is overly general. The statement is not merely US-centric, but it is certainly centric to something and it is therefore exclusionary.
- (3) In regions where "primarily white, middle-class..." is true, it is also true for many, many, many other groups as well. In regions where the statement is true, these characteristics are not something that is specific to or distinguishes members of the fathers' rights movement from the population as a whole. The statement adds no value.
- (4) "Primarily white, middle-class, men..." conflicts with another source which states that half of the members of the fathers' rights movement are women. I note that Messner did not provide a source for his assertion "primarily white, middle-class, men...", whose main point was to assert that men are privileged, but the authors of the statement that half of the members of the fathers' rights movement are women had access to membership data for the largest shared parenting organization in the world. I understand that the person who founded this organization was a woman. "Primarily white, middle-class, men..." is given undue weight.
- (5) "differing viewpoints on how women and men compare" is something that is also true for the population as a whole and is therefore not something that is specific to or distinguishes members of the fathers' rights movement. It is given undue weight. Michael H 34 (talk) 15:55, 25 February 2009 (UTC) Michael H 34
I have, after a delay of 3 months, again restored the information deleted; the text is well-sourced to academic texts; the original research and advocacy motivation of the edit is very clear from reading the above from the above post. In addition, As MH34 knows, if you have reliable sources that contradict the information then feel free to add, not delete the information you disagree with, and that failure to listen to consensus. Specifically,
- there are multiple sources (not just Messner)[65][66] (to which I could add[67]) that make the point about the racial and class make up of this movement. The original research and opinion about whether this reflects "society" is just that; find a source to make this is point for you if you wish. You are right that we could specify that these sources are referring to Western countries, so that caveat could and should be included and I have done so.
- If you have a reliable source that half the movement are composed of women, then please provide a citation for this, and let's add it. I've looked and cannot find one.
- per your point 4, reliable sources do not need to source their information; the fact that they are academics, publishing in academic journals/books is all that we require.
- Regarding your deletion of the conservative/liberal wings of this movement, as I pointed out above a third opinion from an uninvolved editor, (as well as an unofficial one from WLU through a rewrite) agreed that the material should be included. Please stop these edits against consensus.
--Slp1 (talk) 02:24, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
(I objected to the edit that I will call the "primarily white men edit" based on the 4 reasons listed above. Once again, material is defended simply because it is called well-sourced.)
Your edit summary statement that no explanation was provided for removing the "well sourced information" is contradicted by your rationalizations for imputing motives to me.
The source for half of the members are women is directly after the statement that "many women, including the second wives, girlfriends or close relatives of these fathers, are also members of the fathers' rights movement." Michael H 34 (talk) 20:41, 4 June 2009 (UTC) Michael H 34
- Today, men's issues--principally fathers' issues--are where many of our nation's biggest gender inequities lie. And just as many men helped the women's movement, many women are stepping forward to help fathers, forming groups like Moms for Dads and the Second Wives Crusade. Today women make up half of the membership of the fathers' movement. Michael H 34 (talk) 20:43, 4 June 2009 (UTC) Michael H 34
- You need something more authoritative than an opinion column from a father's rights activist (which can only be used with caution and not for this sort of statement of fact[69]) to contradict several academics, including one empirical study. And yes, well-sourced from multiple high quality academic sources is a reason for inclusion, and almost a requirement for inclusion per NPOV, particularly when no valid contradictory sources have even been provided. --Slp1 (talk) 23:46, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
- (Slp1 just stated that Glenn Sacks and Dianna Thompson are fathers rights activists and therefore their statement of a "fact" is "not valid.)
- The sentence from the article is clearly factually incorrect. "Primarily male, white, heterosexual, (tend to be) conservative." When you multiply the percentages of male (not even a majority according to two notable leaders of the FRM) x white (majority but US-centric and clearly less than 100%) x heterosexual (majority but less than 100%) x (tend to be conservative) hardly a majority (and at odds with politically diverse), you do not get a result that can be called a majority, and the word primarily is factually incorrect. Michael H 34 (talk) 14:02, 5 June 2009 (UTC) Michael H 34
- Furthermore the "primarily white male" edit, is based on a US-study is US-centric and most importantly, the sentence is not relevant (especially the term white) because it does not distinguish the FRM from the US population in general. For this reason it is clearly given undue weight. Michael H 34 (talk) 14:06, 5 June 2009 (UTC) Michael H 34
Father's Rights button
Can we get a wiki Father's Rights button? Ks64q2 (talk) 16:08, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
- You mean an interwiki? Those are only to projects run by the Wikimedia Foundation. At best that would get a external link, but WP:ELNO says no wikis in the EL section. There would have to be an indication that the wiki was stable, reliable, and with high standards for sourcing. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:simple/complex 14:16, 5 June 2009 (UTC)