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::::::::: That article, as old as it may be, list Benefica at 235,000 and the new claim for Bayern is 251,315. So your source supports that Bayern is larger. What are you arguing about? [[User:Walter Görlitz|Walter Görlitz]] ([[User talk:Walter Görlitz|talk]]) 01:28, 30 November 2014 (UTC) |
::::::::: That article, as old as it may be, list Benefica at 235,000 and the new claim for Bayern is 251,315. So your source supports that Bayern is larger. What are you arguing about? [[User:Walter Görlitz|Walter Görlitz]] ([[User talk:Walter Görlitz|talk]]) 01:28, 30 November 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::::::: (It's Benfica) That article made by FIFA's magazine The Weekly, a reliable and neutral source, compared the numbers of the clubs at the time and showed that Benfica is the biggest club. Here on Wikipedia no one has provided a single reliable source with updated numbers, so it doesn't really matter what Bayern says (they could be lying). It's not a fact until FIFA or someone else independent from Bayern provides an updated comparison between the clubs. Is this so hard to understand? [[User:SLBedit|SLBedit]] ([[User talk:SLBedit|talk]]) 01:46, 30 November 2014 (UTC) |
:::::::::: (It's Benfica) That article made by FIFA's magazine The Weekly, a reliable and neutral source, compared the numbers of the clubs at the time and showed that Benfica is the biggest club. Here on Wikipedia no one has provided a single reliable source with updated numbers, so it doesn't really matter what Bayern says (they could be lying). It's not a fact until FIFA or someone else independent from Bayern provides an updated comparison between the clubs. Is this so hard to understand? [[User:SLBedit|SLBedit]] ([[User talk:SLBedit|talk]]) 01:46, 30 November 2014 (UTC) |
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::::::::::: The article lists a number that Bayern has now surpassed. |
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::::::::::: While I agree it's good, it's out-of-date. |
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::::::::::: Its age, coupled with new information from a reliable source means that your club no longer has a leg on which to stand. Is this so hard to understand? You don't understand simple logic or the rules of Wikipedia. |
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In other words, if you can't find a reliable source that states that your club has more than 251,000 members your old sources are no longer relevant and I'm done talking with you. Seriously. Don't bother posting another word here unless it's a RS that supports that claim. [[User:Walter Görlitz|Walter Görlitz]] ([[User talk:Walter Görlitz|talk]]) 03:11, 30 November 2014 (UTC) |
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{{outdent|:::::}} Again, it does not matter what Benfica state or claim or what any editor commenting here believes or states about being the biggest club. All that matters is that the claim is supported by a [[:WP:V|verifiable]] source. We have that. The fact that it's a [[:WP:RS|reliable source]] is even better. We make the statement and point to the source and let the reader decide. That's our job. We are not to interpret the information, but if want to explain that Benfica's account practices are shoddy and they may have more members, then we could do that, but again, only if supported by a V and RS. [[User:Walter Görlitz|Walter Görlitz]] ([[User talk:Walter Görlitz|talk]]) 16:15, 29 November 2014 (UTC) |
{{outdent|:::::}} Again, it does not matter what Benfica state or claim or what any editor commenting here believes or states about being the biggest club. All that matters is that the claim is supported by a [[:WP:V|verifiable]] source. We have that. The fact that it's a [[:WP:RS|reliable source]] is even better. We make the statement and point to the source and let the reader decide. That's our job. We are not to interpret the information, but if want to explain that Benfica's account practices are shoddy and they may have more members, then we could do that, but again, only if supported by a V and RS. [[User:Walter Görlitz|Walter Görlitz]] ([[User talk:Walter Görlitz|talk]]) 16:15, 29 November 2014 (UTC) |
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::::::It does matter. Most edits in this thread were made by Germans (Ich901, EriFr, 91.38.173.164). You called Guinness World Records and UEFA shoddy. All sources point to Bayern's claim when they should point to a neutral source like UEFA. [[User:SLBedit|SLBedit]] ([[User talk:SLBedit|talk]]) 19:54, 29 November 2014 (UTC) |
::::::It does matter. Most edits in this thread were made by Germans (Ich901, EriFr, 91.38.173.164). You called Guinness World Records and UEFA shoddy. All sources point to Bayern's claim when they should point to a neutral source like UEFA. [[User:SLBedit|SLBedit]] ([[User talk:SLBedit|talk]]) 19:54, 29 November 2014 (UTC) |
Revision as of 03:11, 30 November 2014
FC Bayern Munich has been listed as one of the Sports and recreation good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | ||||||||||||||||||||||
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Current squad?
I just reffed the latest change in "FIFA Nationality" for Julian Green. So his entry is accurate as of today. But the "Current as of" cite at the top claims the list is current as of yesterday, based on a retieval of a team website retrieved in October 12th. Given how often this subsection would need to be updated to keep it current (i.e. nearly every day.) I think the whole "Current as of" heading should be deleted. It can rarely be considered reliably accurate unless someone checks the team web page daily. What do others think? David in DC (talk) 18:50, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
- Changing the heading to "First team squad" and keep the as-of date seems reasonable. Mentoz86 (talk) 19:19, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
Somebody has posted in the notes to the main page that Julian Green's nationality should not be changed until he plays for the senior side. But as of today he is no longer eligible to play for Germany. If that is the rules "we" (who is this we?) use, then "we" should say so in the page rather than reference to FIFA eligibility rules. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.178.240.14 (talk) 23:10, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
- First of all he has said he wants to change teams but ut has not been done yet, an application will have to be sent in to FIFA first and that will be done the upcoming weeks. And by "we" it is WP:Footy that always uses the FIFA nationality which is defined as the team the player last played for, and Green most recently played for Germany. It was the exactly same ase for Diego Costa a few weeks ago when he made his debut for Spain. QED237 (talk) 23:22, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
It may have been exactly the same for Diego Costa, I don't know. But WP: Footy only provides the same advice - FIFA eligibility rules. FIFA does not define eligibility as "the team the player last played for." It defines eligibility as the team the player first plays an official match for, up until the player files for his one-time switch, in which eligibility is defined as the team the switch is declared for. And the application is already in. I am okay with waiting until FIFA's approval is official. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.178.240.14 (talk) 12:20, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
It was announced by the United States Soccer Federation. That implies the paperwork is already filed and simply awaiting approval. Last team he played for is a horrible rule in this case as Green is no longer eligible for the German National team. It's also a horrible precedent to set in the case of players like Gedion Zelalem who will actually lose his German Citizenship if he makes himself eligible for the USMNT. Last National team to play for is perfectly fine when nationality is ambiguous. It is no longer ambiguous here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adnan7631 (talk • contribs) 00:15, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
"Simply awaiting approval" means it isn't official yet. Kingjeff (talk) 02:33, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
- It isn't official. When he stops onto the field for the US Mens National Team, that's when we change his nationality, not when he purportedly applies to have his nationality changed. Walter Görlitz (talk) 02:39, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
What does purported mean, other than being condescending? Do you think the press releases by the USSF and statements made to the press by Green himself are likely to be made up? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.178.240.14 (talk) 12:21, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
- At the time I write this, I had only see one reference, at the subject's article, of a rumour supplied by ESPN that he had provided the change. No other support existed. WP:AGF. Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:58, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
Seriously? http://www.ussoccer.com/news/mens-national-team/2014/03/140318-julian-green-applies-for-association-switch.aspx "Bayern Munich forward Julian Green has chosen to represent the United States in international competition and has applied for a one-time change of association to FIFA. The process is expected to be completed in the coming weeks." That's from the USSF itself. And it was available on March 18. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.178.240.14 (talk) 22:40, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
- Yes seriously. If you're not familiar with the concept of time I could explain it to you. And further to the idea that he should now be considered an American, I can't remember when it was, but FIFA has turned down the request to transfer on a handful of occasions. I doubt that this will be one of those though. Regardless, we don't indicate citizenship until the player plays for the side. Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:49, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
- Fifa.com is using a US flag. Is that not official? Julian Green - fifa.com--24.253.243.188 (talk) 02:45, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
- No. They have used that since he was born there. Until he plays for a senior national men's team it will remain at the birth nation. Walter Görlitz (talk) 02:57, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
- Fifa.com is using a US flag. Is that not official? Julian Green - fifa.com--24.253.243.188 (talk) 02:45, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
This is getting into a silly flame war. As I noted above, I am okay with waiting until FIFA makes the change official. But you said "as I write this" and you said that on March 19th, a day AFTER the US Soccer press release. And, I think you are being a little more than cute when you say that FIFA has turned down requests in the past - these have been situations, like Nevin Subotic, in which the player was not technically in compliance with the requirements. In Subotic's case, for instance, he did not have German citizenship when playing in his first official match for the US. There's no issue here, it is a formality. Look, I think it is reasonable to wait until the transfer becomes official, although it is also reasonable not to, because readers of the page are interested in what team the player will be playing for, and do not care about the intricacies of FIFA paperwork. But once his transfer has become official-whether or not he EVER gets capped by the US-he is no longer eligible to play for Germany. Leaving a German flag on Green's profile at that point is deceptive. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.178.240.14 (talk) 13:49, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
So it's official. Gulati says it's done and he is available to play immediately. Can we change it now?--24.253.243.188 (talk) 16:13, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
- No. He hasn't played for them yet. When he actually gets minutes in a competitive match we may change it. Just to clarify there are several points in that sentence. He has to play during (minutes on the field, even as a substitute, it's not acceptable for him to be on the bench during a match) the USMNT, (although a junior US side would also qualify) in a FIFA-recognized competitive match (not a friendly, not a training match, not an inter-squad game). I believe that this was alluded to above if not outright stated. Essentially, if he shatters his legs tomorrow (not that I wish that on him, it's just a scenario) and it ends his playing career, he'll be recognized as a German since he did not meet the requirements for being recognized as a German. At least that's my understanding. Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:28, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
- So if he plays against Mexico on the 2nd that won't count either because it's a friendly? Is the World Cup the next matches that could qualify?--24.253.243.188 (talk) 16:39, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
Look, Walter. I am okay with leaving a German flag up. But if you do that, the note above the roster should say "nationality based on team last played for, or country of birth if none." But right now it says it is "based on FIFA eligibility requirements." And I don't know how to put this again so you can understand better - as of today, he is not eligible to play for the German National Team, and unless FIFA changes the eligibility requirement, he will never be eligible to play for the German National Team again. So the article, as currently written, is deceptive to readers. The point of Wikipedia entries is to be informative, not to appeal to those who love regulations and bureaucracy. So to the extent that a German flag is required based on regulations and bureaucracy, rather than based on how people will perceive him, you at least need to change the note above the roster.
And, as a practical point, the way Julian Green will be remembered if he shatters his leg tomorrow and never plays, will be as a promising Bayern Munich player who was a major loss to the US National Team. His German youth international career is insignificant; this has more to do with Germany's overall depth compared to the US than any regulation or rule. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.178.240.14 (talk) 16:37, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
I don't understand why this is such an issue. He's filed an irreversible switch to eligibility for the US. His application has been approved. He's not eligible to play for Germany, and never will be again, unless FIFA's rules change. He should be listed as USA, because, according to FIFA's eligibility rules, USA is the only nation for which he is eligible. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.150.80.193 (talk) 18:30, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
I would say the issue is some Bayern fans have with reality. By FIFA eligibility rules, Julian Green can only play for the United States. He can never represent any country but the US from here on out, but I guess some people want a German flag next to his name because it makes them sleep better or something? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.216.11.5 (talk) 21:09, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
Protected edit request on 24 March 2014
Julian Green's FIFA eligibility was changed to USA today. http://prosoccertalk.nbcsports.com/2014/03/24/fifa-approves-julian-greens-switch-to-united-states-immediately-eligible-to-play-for-usmnt/ Scp333 (talk) 18:17, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
- Not done: it's not clear what changes you want made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. — {{U|Technical 13}} (t • e • c) 18:37, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
- Not done because as stated above, he's still a German based on the team for which he last played and nationality should not change until he has played a competitive match for the USMNT. There is still the likelihood that he will never do that. Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:52, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
Given that he's been called up to the United States' team for their very next match, I don't think "likelihood" means what you think it means, Walter. If you mean "possibility," sure. But in any event, I'm unclear why the flag has to define whether the player "has played a competitive match for X." There are plenty of players who have not played a competitive match for any national team, and yet they have flags. And the note on the roster, again, says "FIFA eligibility rules," not "most recent competitive match." It seems like you have created an artificial rule, and are now defending it to the last drop, even though there's an insufficiently rational relationship between your rule and the meaning of the flag as listed in the article itself. After all, if his leg gets shattered TOMORROW, nobody's going to write an article about the early end to "German-national Julian Green's career." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.178.240.14 (talk) 20:24, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks for your opinion, as incorrect as it may be. Called-up means what exactly? Has he been asked to play or sit on the bench? It's the latter. He hasn't been offered a starting role. If you think it's an artificial rule, by all means, ask for intervention at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football. Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:30, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
You're being ridiculous. First of all, he probably won't start, but given the six sub rule, it's "more likely than not" that he'll play. Does coming in as a sub now not qualify you? Maybe only if he starts in the final of the World Cup championship game, so only a covet few players even have a nationality.
I'd ask to intervene, but I don't see the need. Why? Because as far as I can tell, I've reviewed project football front to back and it doesn't state the rule you say it requires. The only place any "rule" exists is in the template, which says exactly what the Bayern Munich page says - defined by FIFA eligibility rules, with a link to FIFA eligiblity rules on wikipedia. Which in turn, says "In June 2009, FIFA Congress passed a motion that removed the age limit for players who had already played for a country's national team at youth level to change national associations. This ruling features in Article 18 of the Regulations Governing the Application of the FIFA Statutes." Article 18, in turn, states:
1. If a Player has more than one nationality, or if a Player acquires a new nationality, or if a Player is eligible to play for several representative teams due to nationality, he may, only once, request to change the Association for which he is eligible to play international matches to the Association of another country of which he holds nationality, subject to the following conditions.... 3. Any Player who has the right to change Associations in accordance with par. 1 and 2 above shall submit a written, substantiated request to the FIFA general secretariat. The Players’ Status Committee shall decide on the request. The procedure will be in accordance with the Rules Governing the Procedures of the Players’ Status Committee and the Dispute Resolution Chamber. Once the Player has filed his request, he is not eligible to play for any representative team until his request has been processed.
In other words, he is eligible to play for the United States. He is not eligible to play for Germany. He has not been eligible to play for Germany since he filed his request last week. He is American according to "FIFA eligibility rules," which is what both the actual website and the project page state is the criteria. And you have several times now pointed me to the general WikiFooty project, which, unless I am missing something, says absolutely nothing to the contrary. (If I am missing the particular citation or discussion you are referring to, please kindly point it out to me.) The only intervention I can think of asking is for you to lose your credentials, and I don't care enough about wikipedia entries to bother having that fight. I guess we all can enjoy our little fiefdom of power, like a Condo Association President or Lord of the Flies. But stop acting like your intensity is evidence of your correctness. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.178.240.14 (talk) 21:52, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
PS - I looked at the Footy page because I was and continue to be generally interested in the logic behind waiting until he plays for his new team before changing the flag. I don't get the logic. But instead of being explained the logic, I get a lot of haughty statements about it being the rule along with a lot of meaningless hypotheticals about him never playing for the United States. Even if he is never capped for the United States, then so what? Doesn't the fact that he's never played a meaningful match for Germany, along with the fact that he's declared his allegiance to the United States, mean that a US flag would not be bizarre even under such an unlikely scenario? I mean, from today on forward, he'll be referred to in press articles as an American national, regardless of whether he is capped. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.178.240.14 (talk) 22:03, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks for looking. Now try asking on the talk page. There are a dozen unwritten rules so instead of continuing to be obnoxious, do yourself a favour and ask. Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:06, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
1) Wikipedia is not a secret handshake club...... 1a) There are no unwritten rules, even if you believe that's the way it should be done. 2) Even if there were unwritten rules, it would seem self-explanatory that the unwritten rule cannot directly contradict the written rule ("FIFA eligibility" controls) 3) You have been obnoxious from the start, and the responses in tone have simply been to reach your level of haughtiness and smug superiority. 4) I've started a conversation on the talk page, but it's silly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.178.240.14 (talk) 22:40, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is work of community and all I can see is an IP trying to say same thing over and over again without listening. And dont expect any answer were you posted. You should post it directly at WT:FOOTY. QED237 (talk) 22:44, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
But Wikipedia is not a work of a community, it's primary goal is to be open source to everyone, not just dedicated handles. It's therefore a work of everyone, not just Walter Gorlitz and QED237 and a handful of other people who make it their personal hobby. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.178.240.14 (talk) 23:10, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
- I consider everone editing on wikipedia a part of the community, both new and old editors, IP's and users. QED237 (talk) 23:16, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
- I consider it belonging to everyone so everyone, including anons editing from Washington DC, is free to discuss this over at the footy project page.
- And speaking of obnoxious from the start...
- As for unwritten rules, there are a lot of them, both on Wikipedia and in live. Get used to it. To that point, read WP:IGNORE.
- I'm done discussing this here. I'll watch for my name at the footy project page anon may find a sympathetic ear to pathetic whining. Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:30, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 27 March 2014
Julian Green's nationality should be changed from German to American. 70.162.49.233 (talk) 03:51, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
- Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. --Mdann52talk to me! 08:33, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
Fans recognized for stance against extreme right politics (racism, antisemitism) and discrimination against homosexuals
I think it should be mentioned that some fans of the club has been recognized in media for taking a stance against extreme right politics (racism, antisemitism) and discrimination against homosexuals. I know this is a controversial topic. Therefore I simply suggest an edit.
The latest news:
Additional sources:
http://www.sueddeutsche.de/muenchen/ultra-fans-des-fc-bayern-im-zweifel-rot-1.2107815
/EriFr (talk) 13:03, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
biggest sports club in the world
Bayern München has become the biggest sports club in the world with 251,315 members as it was announced today at 19:57
--Ich901 (talk) 19:08, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
here is another source:
--Ich901 (talk) 20:17, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- They don't even know how many members Benfica currently has, so how can they say Bayern Munich has more? Where is the comparison? Where is the official and neutral source? If Benfica president would say "we have 300,000 members" and the Portuguese media repeated it that wouldn't make it a fact, and that's what happening in German media... and it's spreading to international media. SLBedit (talk) 23:03, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
It's unofficial until UEFA says so.
- Your edits contradicting the reliable source make Wikipedia unreliable. If you have a problem with that, take it to WP:RSN. Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:03, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
http://www.record.xl.pt/Futebol/Nacional/1a_liga/Benfica/interior.aspx?content_id=915314 "The president of Bayern Munich, Karl Hopfner, has doubts about the number of Benfica paying members, the club [Benfica] that the magazine "The Weekly", of FIFA, confirmed in February as the world leader."
http://www.record.xl.pt/Futebol/Internacional/alemanha/interior.aspx?content_id=917326 "the bavarians assure to have now 251,315 paying members, more 16 thousand than the record that still belongs to Benfica because the new number lacks confirmation by UEFA." SLBedit (talk) 00:50, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- As SLBendit said it on the discussion page of Benfica: We do not know the current statistics for Benfica, so therefore we can not with certainty say that either FC Bayern or Benfica is the football club with the highest number of members in the world. We can say that Benfica was the football club with the highest number of members in the world at a certain date (or during a certain period), but we can not say Benfica is the football club with the highest number of members in the world at the moment. The same goes for FC Bayern. However. I do not see any problem with saying that there are sources who claim that FC Bayern is the football club with the highest number of members in the world at this date. EriFr (talk) 11:27, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- clearly states: "Zudem haben die Bayern innerhalb der vergangenen zwölf Monate ihre Mitgliederzahl deutlich gesteigert, von 233.427 auf 251.315. Die zuletzt veröffentlichten Statistiken als Maßstab genommen hat der Double-Gewinner damit den bislang mitgliederstärksten Klub Benfica Lissabon aus Portugal überholt und darf sich größter Verein der Welt nennen."
- translation: "In addition, the Bavarians have increased their membership significantly in the past twelve months, from 233,427 to 251,315 . The most recently published statistics taken as a measure, the double winners have overtaken the thus far largest club by membership Benfica Lisbon from Portugal and can name themselves the largest club in the world."
- It is clearly stated that Bayern is bigger than Benfica according the latest statistics. Welt.de is widely regarded as a reliable source. It is one of the biggest news services and news papers in Germany. It is used everywhere in Wikipedia as a source and I repeat there are no restrictions on the language used in the sources, it is irrelevant.
- UEFA is not entitled to decide which club is the biggest in the world on its own. --91.38.173.164 (talk) 11:38, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- I believe that FC Bayern is bigger than Benfica. FC Bayern has had an truly incredible increase in membership in recent years and I doubt that Benfica has been able to keep up with that. However, I was trying to compromise. I suggested edits on both pages and my suggestion was that we neither say that FC Bayern or Benfica is the football club with the highest number of members in the world at this moment, but that Benfica was the the football club with the highest number of members in the world at a certain date (or during the certain period) and that certain sources (as an example, Welt.de) claim that FC Bayern is the football club with the highest number of members in the world at this date. EriFr (talk) 13:09, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- What you "believe" or what Bayern Munich says doesn't matter. The club itself, Bayern Munich, claims to be the biggest but their claim is not officially supported by UEFA, so it's not a fact. If it worked that way, any club would say they are the biggest. SLBedit (talk) 19:46, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- So please show me who UEFA states are the biggest club. I'll add, that it doesn't matter what they say though. What matters is what a reliable source says. If UEFA contradicts that RS, we can add it as a contradicting opinion for balance. Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:00, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
- http://www.fifa.com/mm//Document/AF-Magazine/FIFAWeekly/02/27/86/02/LowRes_eng_Woche07_2014_Neutral.PDF page 29 SLBedit (talk) 01:21, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
- That article, as old as it may be, list Benefica at 235,000 and the new claim for Bayern is 251,315. So your source supports that Bayern is larger. What are you arguing about? Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:28, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
- (It's Benfica) That article made by FIFA's magazine The Weekly, a reliable and neutral source, compared the numbers of the clubs at the time and showed that Benfica is the biggest club. Here on Wikipedia no one has provided a single reliable source with updated numbers, so it doesn't really matter what Bayern says (they could be lying). It's not a fact until FIFA or someone else independent from Bayern provides an updated comparison between the clubs. Is this so hard to understand? SLBedit (talk) 01:46, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
- The article lists a number that Bayern has now surpassed.
- While I agree it's good, it's out-of-date.
- Its age, coupled with new information from a reliable source means that your club no longer has a leg on which to stand. Is this so hard to understand? You don't understand simple logic or the rules of Wikipedia.
- (It's Benfica) That article made by FIFA's magazine The Weekly, a reliable and neutral source, compared the numbers of the clubs at the time and showed that Benfica is the biggest club. Here on Wikipedia no one has provided a single reliable source with updated numbers, so it doesn't really matter what Bayern says (they could be lying). It's not a fact until FIFA or someone else independent from Bayern provides an updated comparison between the clubs. Is this so hard to understand? SLBedit (talk) 01:46, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
- That article, as old as it may be, list Benefica at 235,000 and the new claim for Bayern is 251,315. So your source supports that Bayern is larger. What are you arguing about? Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:28, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
- http://www.fifa.com/mm//Document/AF-Magazine/FIFAWeekly/02/27/86/02/LowRes_eng_Woche07_2014_Neutral.PDF page 29 SLBedit (talk) 01:21, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
- So please show me who UEFA states are the biggest club. I'll add, that it doesn't matter what they say though. What matters is what a reliable source says. If UEFA contradicts that RS, we can add it as a contradicting opinion for balance. Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:00, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
- What you "believe" or what Bayern Munich says doesn't matter. The club itself, Bayern Munich, claims to be the biggest but their claim is not officially supported by UEFA, so it's not a fact. If it worked that way, any club would say they are the biggest. SLBedit (talk) 19:46, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- I believe that FC Bayern is bigger than Benfica. FC Bayern has had an truly incredible increase in membership in recent years and I doubt that Benfica has been able to keep up with that. However, I was trying to compromise. I suggested edits on both pages and my suggestion was that we neither say that FC Bayern or Benfica is the football club with the highest number of members in the world at this moment, but that Benfica was the the football club with the highest number of members in the world at a certain date (or during the certain period) and that certain sources (as an example, Welt.de) claim that FC Bayern is the football club with the highest number of members in the world at this date. EriFr (talk) 13:09, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
In other words, if you can't find a reliable source that states that your club has more than 251,000 members your old sources are no longer relevant and I'm done talking with you. Seriously. Don't bother posting another word here unless it's a RS that supports that claim. Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:11, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
Again, it does not matter what Benfica state or claim or what any editor commenting here believes or states about being the biggest club. All that matters is that the claim is supported by a verifiable source. We have that. The fact that it's a reliable source is even better. We make the statement and point to the source and let the reader decide. That's our job. We are not to interpret the information, but if want to explain that Benfica's account practices are shoddy and they may have more members, then we could do that, but again, only if supported by a V and RS. Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:15, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- It does matter. Most edits in this thread were made by Germans (Ich901, EriFr, 91.38.173.164). You called Guinness World Records and UEFA shoddy. All sources point to Bayern's claim when they should point to a neutral source like UEFA. SLBedit (talk) 19:54, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- I never meant to say that what I think has bearing on Wikipedia, I just tried to calm down the anonymous user (91.38.173.164) while I again argued for my compromise. But I have decided to drop the compromise. I agree with you, Walter Görlitz, in this case, there is a verifiable and reliable source. EriFr (talk) 20:08, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- Guinness World Records Limited is a private company headquartered in London, which is not the only legitimate source for records. In addition to that their records aren't updated frequently. UEFA is just a EUROPEAN organisation and it is not their job to decide which is the biggest club. Welt is not connected with Bayern. They have rather an interest in being regarded as reliable source than taking a side in football topics. My nationality is irrelevant. You have no prove that either me or the Welt is biased on that matter. Ich901 (talk) 20:12, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- Guinness World Records and UEFA are more trustworthy and independent than any German media on this matter, since it envolves a German club. I have updated, in an unbiased way, Benfica and Bayern Munich articles. SLBedit (talk) 20:27, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- Can you provide a link to the Wikipedia rule, that states a German source is in general unreliable on this matter? Questioning the neutrality of this source is original research and not allowed at Wikipedia. Editors are only allowed to display knowledge from reliable sources. The number of 251,315 members of Bayern fans is also present in their latest report on their homepage. http://www.fcbayern.de/media/native/presse-free/Mitglieder_Fanclubs_KidsClub_13-14.pdf The growth of members is almost linear and not unlikely to be true. Ich901 (talk) 20:35, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- All I am saying is that those "reliable" sources are not reliable since all they do is reporting Bayern's claim. SLBedit (talk) 20:42, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- That is not true. They don't report Bayern's claim. Bayern itself has not claimed to be the biggest club. Ich901 (talk) 20:47, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, it is true. They report what Bayern claimed. Bayern did claim to be the biggest club, especially in Facebook. SLBedit (talk) 20:49, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- There is no post on Facebook where it is claimed that Bayern was the biggest club. Welt makes the claim in their article they are not repeating Bayerns claim. They report Bayerns member number. I am refering solely to their article. Benfica is also self-reporting their member numbers. Ich901 (talk) 20:56, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, it is true. They report what Bayern claimed. Bayern did claim to be the biggest club, especially in Facebook. SLBedit (talk) 20:49, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- That is not true. They don't report Bayern's claim. Bayern itself has not claimed to be the biggest club. Ich901 (talk) 20:47, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- All I am saying is that those "reliable" sources are not reliable since all they do is reporting Bayern's claim. SLBedit (talk) 20:42, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- Can you provide a link to the Wikipedia rule, that states a German source is in general unreliable on this matter? Questioning the neutrality of this source is original research and not allowed at Wikipedia. Editors are only allowed to display knowledge from reliable sources. The number of 251,315 members of Bayern fans is also present in their latest report on their homepage. http://www.fcbayern.de/media/native/presse-free/Mitglieder_Fanclubs_KidsClub_13-14.pdf The growth of members is almost linear and not unlikely to be true. Ich901 (talk) 20:35, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- For your information, SLBedit. I am Swedish. I would be very interested in knowing how you came to the conclusion that I must be German. EriFr (talk) 20:16, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- Sweden is close to Germany. :) SLBedit (talk) 20:44, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- Guinness World Records and UEFA are more trustworthy and independent than any German media on this matter, since it envolves a German club. I have updated, in an unbiased way, Benfica and Bayern Munich articles. SLBedit (talk) 20:27, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- Guinness World Records Limited is a private company headquartered in London, which is not the only legitimate source for records. In addition to that their records aren't updated frequently. UEFA is just a EUROPEAN organisation and it is not their job to decide which is the biggest club. Welt is not connected with Bayern. They have rather an interest in being regarded as reliable source than taking a side in football topics. My nationality is irrelevant. You have no prove that either me or the Welt is biased on that matter. Ich901 (talk) 20:12, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- I never meant to say that what I think has bearing on Wikipedia, I just tried to calm down the anonymous user (91.38.173.164) while I again argued for my compromise. But I have decided to drop the compromise. I agree with you, Walter Görlitz, in this case, there is a verifiable and reliable source. EriFr (talk) 20:08, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- It does matter. Most edits in this thread were made by Germans (Ich901, EriFr, 91.38.173.164). You called Guinness World Records and UEFA shoddy. All sources point to Bayern's claim when they should point to a neutral source like UEFA. SLBedit (talk) 19:54, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- I find this to be funny. Now that Bayern supposedly has more members, the news spread all over the international media, but when it was Benfica no one cared. Anyway, currently only Bayern claimed to have more members which is not a fact. SLBedit (talk) 20:39, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- I conclude with this (since the discussion leads nowhere): I don't care if Benfica or Bayern have more members. I care about facts. Bayern claims to have X members and arrogantly say they are the biggest, when they don't even know how many members Benfica has. SLBedit (talk) 20:54, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- No you don't care only about the facts, you also have an opinion in this case which can be for example seen in the usage of the word "arrogantly" above. After a look at your user page and your edits here I don't believe your claim that your edits are unbiased. Especially as are you implying that the edits of those arguing against you are biased. --Jaellee (talk) 21:32, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- Look Bayern Munich fan (see his userpage), don't twist my words. I used "arrogantly" in this discussion to describe Bayern's actions, I did not use it in any article. Now you are lying and attacking my contributions to Wikipedia (clearly you didn't check my overall contributions) because I don't hide the fact that I am a Benfica fan. Now this is Bayern/Germany lovers against me. This discussion got really biased. :) SLBedit (talk) 22:48, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, I'm a Bayern Munich fan, but contrary to you I did never claim that my edits were unbiased. I fact, I didn't make any edits in the article at all with regard to this topic. Of course, a Benfica supporter is unbiased while a Bayern Munich supporter (or a German) is necessarily biased, how could I miss that? I didn't check all your edits (why should I?), I only talk about this discussion and I don't care for your behavior, especially that you accuse me of lying. You described Bayern's actions as "arrogant" (in the discussion above, I never claimed that you used it in any article - see who is twisting words), that is an opinion (or is there a reliable source for this "fact"?). But your claim that you are unbiased and only care about the facts is getting more and more threadbare. --Jaellee (talk) 23:09, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- I try to be unbiased so I wrote my edits in articles are unbiased (but I'm human). That's your problem. I thought you were talking about edits in articles, I didn't read "edits here". Yes and that's my opinion (not a fact). Yes I care about facts when editing articles and you didn't provide any reliable sources about what's being discussed. You jumped in and started attacking me, like I have hurt your feelings or something. SLBedit (talk) 23:24, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, I'm a Bayern Munich fan, but contrary to you I did never claim that my edits were unbiased. I fact, I didn't make any edits in the article at all with regard to this topic. Of course, a Benfica supporter is unbiased while a Bayern Munich supporter (or a German) is necessarily biased, how could I miss that? I didn't check all your edits (why should I?), I only talk about this discussion and I don't care for your behavior, especially that you accuse me of lying. You described Bayern's actions as "arrogant" (in the discussion above, I never claimed that you used it in any article - see who is twisting words), that is an opinion (or is there a reliable source for this "fact"?). But your claim that you are unbiased and only care about the facts is getting more and more threadbare. --Jaellee (talk) 23:09, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- Look Bayern Munich fan (see his userpage), don't twist my words. I used "arrogantly" in this discussion to describe Bayern's actions, I did not use it in any article. Now you are lying and attacking my contributions to Wikipedia (clearly you didn't check my overall contributions) because I don't hide the fact that I am a Benfica fan. Now this is Bayern/Germany lovers against me. This discussion got really biased. :) SLBedit (talk) 22:48, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- No you don't care only about the facts, you also have an opinion in this case which can be for example seen in the usage of the word "arrogantly" above. After a look at your user page and your edits here I don't believe your claim that your edits are unbiased. Especially as are you implying that the edits of those arguing against you are biased. --Jaellee (talk) 21:32, 29 November 2014 (UTC)