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*: Thanks. I see that the current name is more popular. Can I close the request myself or should it be an administrator? [[User:Elmor|Elmor]] ([[User talk:Elmor|talk]]) 15:31, 23 August 2010 (UTC) |
*: Thanks. I see that the current name is more popular. Can I close the request myself or should it be an administrator? [[User:Elmor|Elmor]] ([[User talk:Elmor|talk]]) 15:31, 23 August 2010 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''' for the reasons outlined by Caspian blue. The Google result presented are invalid results. ···[[User:Nihonjoe|<font color="darkgreen">日本穣</font>]]<sup>[[Help:Installing Japanese character sets|?]]</sup> · <small>[[Special:Contributions/Nihonjoe|<font color="blue">投稿</font>]] · [[User talk:Nihonjoe|Talk to Nihonjoe]] · [[WP:JA|<font color="maroon">Join WikiProject Japan</font>]]!</small> 17:31, 22 August 2010 (UTC) |
*'''Oppose''' for the reasons outlined by Caspian blue. The Google result presented are invalid results. ···[[User:Nihonjoe|<font color="darkgreen">日本穣</font>]]<sup>[[Help:Installing Japanese character sets|?]]</sup> · <small>[[Special:Contributions/Nihonjoe|<font color="blue">投稿</font>]] · [[User talk:Nihonjoe|Talk to Nihonjoe]] · [[WP:JA|<font color="maroon">Join WikiProject Japan</font>]]!</small> 17:31, 22 August 2010 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''': In the interests of ''a priori'' clarity, the text of [[Eulsa Treaty]] explains that "in the [[Korean calendar]], ''eulsa'' is the [[Sexagenary cycle#Sexagenary Cycle|Sexagenary Cycle]]'s 42nd year in which the treaty was signed." There is no citation support for this credible assertion, nor for the following: "In Japanese, the treaty is known under several names including {{nihongo|Second Japan-Korean Convention|第二次日韓協約|Dai-niji Nikkan Kyōyaku}}, {{nihongo||乙巳保護条約|Isshi Hogo Jōyaku}} and {{nihongo||韓国保護条約|Kankoku Hogo Jōyaku}}." |
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:The issue at hand is divorced from these two sentences. Rather, the issue is determining the best title for this article based on Wikipedia's [[WP:Five Pillars]]. |
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:The article name should be changed for three distinct reasons. |
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:'''A.''' The strategy of [[User:Elmor|Elmor]] is elegant in attempting to avoid the wiki-gamesmanship which attend this subject in our Wikipedia context. The effort was inartful, but it was not inappropriate or unhelpful. A search of Google books reveals a stark disparity in the usage of the use of "Eulsa treaty" and "Japan-Korea treaty" across the array of published reference sources which have been uploaded to the internet as of August 2010.<p>A closer examination of these books reveals no early evidence of the Korean term "''Eulsa''" in the international records which confirm this treaty's existence. The "''Eulsa'' treaty" is a modernism which has evolved in English-language texts primarily in the late-20th century and the 1st decade of the 21st century. Research informing this restatement follows: |
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:;Google search term — "Eulsa treaty" |
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::Google "hits", about 129 results |
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::Note that in this Korean-government published book, the term is set off with quotation marks to indicate it is an "also-known-as" title. |
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::* Taehakkyo, Sŏul and Haengjŏng Taehagwŏn. (1995). ''The Korean Journal of Policy Studies.'' Seoul: Graduate School of Public Administration, Seoul National University. [http://www.worldcat.org/title/korean-journal-of-policy-studies/oclc/19841320 OCLC 19841320]; excerpt, "Accordingly, the treaties such as the [[Eulsa Treaty|'Eulsa' treaty]], the [[Cengmi Treaty|'Cengmi' treaty]], the Korea-Japan annexation treaty are the ones that must be nullified, and it does not stand to reason at all that the Japanese Government still argues ...." |
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:;Google search term — "1905 Japan-Korea treaty" |
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::Google "hits", about 28,200 results |
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::Note that these books summarize the cumulative records of multiple, credible international sourcebooks. |
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::* Clare, Israel Smith; Hubert Howe Bancroft and George Edwin Rines. (1910). ''Library of universal history and popular science.'' New York: The Bancroft society. [http://www.worldcat.org/title/library-of-universal-history-and-popular-science-containing-a-record-of-the-human-race-from-the-earliest-historical-period-to-the-present-time-embracing-a-general-survey-of-the-progress-of-mankind-in-national-and-social-life-civil-government-religion-literature-science-and-art/oclc/20843036 OCLC 20843036] |
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:::<u>Inline citation format</u>. <:ref>Clare, Israel ''et al.'' (1910). {{Google books|02cmAQAAIAAJ|''Library of universal history and popular science,'' p. 4732.|page=4732}}</ref> |
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::* United States. Dept. of State. (1919). ''Catalogue of treaties: 1814-1918.'' Washington: Goverment Printing Office. [http://www.worldcat.org/title/catalogue-of-treaties-1814-1918/oclc/3830508 OCLC 3830508] |
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:::<u>Inline citation format</u>. <:ref>United States. Dept. of State. (1919). {{Google books|35QpAAAAYAAJ|''Catalogue of treaties: 1814-1918,''p. 273.|page=273}}</ref> |
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::* Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, Division of International Law. (1921). Pamphlet 43: ''Korea, Treaties and Agreements." The Endowment: Washington, D.C. [http://www.worldcat.org/title/pamphlet/oclc/1644278 OCLC 1644278] |
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:::<u>Inline citation format</u>. <:ref>Carnegie Endowment (1921). {{Google books|DtcBAAAAYAAJ|Pamphlet 43: ''Korea, Treaties and Agreements," p. vii.|page=vii}}</ref> |
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:'''B.''' The renaming of this treaty in English-language books and other publications has gained expanded usage on the internet (a) because of the title of this Wikipedia article; and (b) because of its use in other Wikipedia mirrors. This [[metastasis]] is demonstrable. It is illustrated by its effects in skewing the Google-"hits" argument which was presented in "A"-above. Wiki-hyperlilnks which inform this paragraph follow: |
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::; [[Korean calendar]] as treaty name |
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::* [http://ko.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%EC%A0%9C2%EC%B0%A8_%ED%95%9C%EC%9D%BC_%ED%98%91%EC%95%BD&dir=prev&action=history 23 2005 April], [[:ko:제2차 한일 협약]] |
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::* [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Eulsa_Treaty&oldid=380291557 29 July 2005] [[:en:Eulsa Treaty]] |
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::*[http://no.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Eulsatraktaten&diff=7538855&oldid=3413906 1 March 2008], [[:no:Eulsatraktaten]] |
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::*[http://nl.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Eulsaverdrag&diff=14993265&oldid=14987473 22 December 2008], [[:nl:Eulsaverdrag]] |
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::*[http://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Trait%C3%A9_d%27Eulsa&diff=42570828&oldid=42570774 20 June 2009], [[:fr:Traité d'Eulsa]] |
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::*[http://it.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Trattato_di_Eulsa&diff=24994591&oldid=24970159 27 June 2009], [[:it:Trattato di Eulsa]] |
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::* [http://zh.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%E4%B9%99%E5%B7%B3%E6%A2%9D%E7%B4%84&diff=13272616&oldid=13272531 29 May 2010], [[:zh:乙巳條約]] |
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:The use of [[Eulsa Treaty]] as the article title is inconsistent with [[WP:NPOV]] and [[WP:Use English]]; and for these reasons, it should be changed in the ways which are illustrated in the Russian and German Wikipedias. Wiki-hyperlilnks which inform this paragraph follow: |
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:;[[WP:Use English]] -- |
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:* [http://ru.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%D0%AF%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BE-%D0%BA%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B9%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BE%D1%80_%D0%BE_%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B5&diff=prev&oldid=8511523 24 April 2008], [[:ru:Японо-корейский договор о протекторате]] (Japan-Korea Protectorate Treaty; translated from English Wikipedia) |
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:* [http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Zweite_Japanisch-Koreanische_%C3%9Cbereinkunft&oldid=61174895 15 June 2009], [[:de:Zweite Japanisch-Koreanische Übereinkunft]] (Second Japanese-Korean agreement; translated from English Wikipedia) |
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:* [http://ja.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%E7%AC%AC%E4%BA%8C%E6%AC%A1%E6%97%A5%E9%9F%93%E5%8D%94%E7%B4%84&diff=33069062&oldid=1407834 5 January 2004], [[:ja:第二次日韓協約]] (Second Japan-Korea Agreement) |
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:'''C.''' This article was explicitly created in order to further the POV of one side in the on-going Dockdo controversy -- [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Eulsa_Treaty&diff=380291557&oldid=19822325 here]. |
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:This does not mean that the article should not exist nor that this subject is not noteworthy; but it does provide insight into the motivation and intentions of the originator of this article title. This becomes relevant in addressing the ''post hoc ad propter hoc'' reasoning which is put forward in opposition to this modest, but necessary name change. |
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:The names of other articles in [[:Category:Treaties of the Korean Empire]] make plain that this name is an anomaly, e.g., |
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:* [[Eulsa Treaty]]? |
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:* [[Japan–Korea Protocol of 1904]] |
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:* [[Japan-Korea Annexation Treaty of 1907]] |
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:* [[Japan-Korea Annexation Treaty]] |
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:This thoughtful reasearch informs my support for the change proposed by [[User:Elmor|Elmor]]. --[[User:Tenmei|Tenmei]] ([[User talk:Tenmei|talk]]) 21:46, 24 August 2010 (UTC) |
Revision as of 21:46, 24 August 2010
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Requested move
Eulsa Treaty → Japan-Korea Protectorate Treaty — The name "Japan-Korea Protectorate Treaty" is used more often ([1] vs [2]) and, IMHO, it is also much more understandable for non-Korean people. Elmor (talk) 07:59, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- support per above. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 12:59, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose- because the Google result is simply missing many things and Elmor inaccurately presents the actual statistics. As you look into the result closely, "Eulsa Treaty" or "Ulsa Treaty" is more prevalently used than the suggested name in the suggested links and references. Also, the suggested name is used as explain the meaning of Eulsa Treaty just like Taft–Katsura Agreement or Treaty of Shimonoseki (don't expect people in the English people all know Shimonoseki means what). People outside the world who must study and learn the pertinent subject (such as Americans, Japanese and Chiese of course) don't know what Taft-Katsura or Shimonoseki mean, but learn the meaning by reading the explanation following the title as well as the other example. To accurately test with the Google, just simply add "" to the name that Elmor favors, and then you will see the magical number is all gone but its appears with much belower numbers (more than 1/2) than the current trick.--Caspian blue 07:33, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose for the reasons outlined by Caspian blue. The Google result presented are invalid results. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 17:31, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
- Support: In the interests of a priori clarity, the text of Eulsa Treaty explains that "in the Korean calendar, eulsa is the Sexagenary Cycle's 42nd year in which the treaty was signed." There is no citation support for this credible assertion, nor for the following: "In Japanese, the treaty is known under several names including Second Japan-Korean Convention (第二次日韓協約, Dai-niji Nikkan Kyōyaku), Isshi Hogo Jōyaku (乙巳保護条約) and Kankoku Hogo Jōyaku (韓国保護条約)."
- The issue at hand is divorced from these two sentences. Rather, the issue is determining the best title for this article based on Wikipedia's WP:Five Pillars.
- The article name should be changed for three distinct reasons.
- A. The strategy of Elmor is elegant in attempting to avoid the wiki-gamesmanship which attend this subject in our Wikipedia context. The effort was inartful, but it was not inappropriate or unhelpful. A search of Google books reveals a stark disparity in the usage of the use of "Eulsa treaty" and "Japan-Korea treaty" across the array of published reference sources which have been uploaded to the internet as of August 2010.
A closer examination of these books reveals no early evidence of the Korean term "Eulsa" in the international records which confirm this treaty's existence. The "Eulsa treaty" is a modernism which has evolved in English-language texts primarily in the late-20th century and the 1st decade of the 21st century. Research informing this restatement follows:
- Google search term — "Eulsa treaty"
- Google "hits", about 129 results
- Note that in this Korean-government published book, the term is set off with quotation marks to indicate it is an "also-known-as" title.
- Taehakkyo, Sŏul and Haengjŏng Taehagwŏn. (1995). The Korean Journal of Policy Studies. Seoul: Graduate School of Public Administration, Seoul National University. OCLC 19841320; excerpt, "Accordingly, the treaties such as the 'Eulsa' treaty, the 'Cengmi' treaty, the Korea-Japan annexation treaty are the ones that must be nullified, and it does not stand to reason at all that the Japanese Government still argues ...."
- Google search term — "1905 Japan-Korea treaty"
- Google "hits", about 28,200 results
- Note that these books summarize the cumulative records of multiple, credible international sourcebooks.
- Clare, Israel Smith; Hubert Howe Bancroft and George Edwin Rines. (1910). Library of universal history and popular science. New York: The Bancroft society. OCLC 20843036
- Inline citation format. <:ref>Clare, Israel et al. (1910). Library of universal history and popular science, p. 4732., p. 4732, at Google Books</ref>
- United States. Dept. of State. (1919). Catalogue of treaties: 1814-1918. Washington: Goverment Printing Office. OCLC 3830508
- Inline citation format. <:ref>United States. Dept. of State. (1919). Catalogue of treaties: 1814-1918,p. 273., p. 273, at Google Books</ref>
- Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, Division of International Law. (1921). Pamphlet 43: Korea, Treaties and Agreements." The Endowment: Washington, D.C. OCLC 1644278
- Inline citation format. <:ref>Carnegie Endowment (1921). Pamphlet 43: Korea, Treaties and Agreements," p. vii., p. vii, at Google Books</ref>
- B. The renaming of this treaty in English-language books and other publications has gained expanded usage on the internet (a) because of the title of this Wikipedia article; and (b) because of its use in other Wikipedia mirrors. This metastasis is demonstrable. It is illustrated by its effects in skewing the Google-"hits" argument which was presented in "A"-above. Wiki-hyperlilnks which inform this paragraph follow:
- The use of Eulsa Treaty as the article title is inconsistent with WP:NPOV and WP:Use English; and for these reasons, it should be changed in the ways which are illustrated in the Russian and German Wikipedias. Wiki-hyperlilnks which inform this paragraph follow:
-
- 24 April 2008, ru:Японо-корейский договор о протекторате (Japan-Korea Protectorate Treaty; translated from English Wikipedia)
- 15 June 2009, de:Zweite Japanisch-Koreanische Übereinkunft (Second Japanese-Korean agreement; translated from English Wikipedia)
- 5 January 2004, ja:第二次日韓協約 (Second Japan-Korea Agreement)
- C. This article was explicitly created in order to further the POV of one side in the on-going Dockdo controversy -- here.
- This does not mean that the article should not exist nor that this subject is not noteworthy; but it does provide insight into the motivation and intentions of the originator of this article title. This becomes relevant in addressing the post hoc ad propter hoc reasoning which is put forward in opposition to this modest, but necessary name change.
- The names of other articles in Category:Treaties of the Korean Empire make plain that this name is an anomaly, e.g.,