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:Just a minor point the King said ''From Canada, which we have just left and whither we shall return, I bring you to-day the warm greeting of a neighbour and a trusted friend. From my other Dominions, from the United Kingdom and from all my empire I carry to you expressions of the utmost cordiality and good will. ...''' [[User:MilborneOne|MilborneOne]] ([[User talk:MilborneOne|talk]]) 16:28, 8 October 2010 (UTC) |
:Just a minor point the King said ''From Canada, which we have just left and whither we shall return, I bring you to-day the warm greeting of a neighbour and a trusted friend. From my other Dominions, from the United Kingdom and from all my empire I carry to you expressions of the utmost cordiality and good will. ...''' [[User:MilborneOne|MilborneOne]] ([[User talk:MilborneOne|talk]]) 16:28, 8 October 2010 (UTC) |
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Yet again, DrKiernan makes an edit to the article instead of participating in discussion: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Elizabeth_Bowes-Lyon&diff=389680894&oldid=389561131 this edit], we're left to assume, means he thinks the tour was on behalf of the United Kingdom. The sources provided above do mention that the British embassy was included in the US tour, but they claim otherwise on which country the king was representing. --<span style="border-top:1px solid black;font-size:80%">[[User talk:Miesianiacal|<span style="background-color:black;color:white">'''Ħ'''</span>]] [[User:Miesianiacal|<span style="color:black">MIESIANIACAL</span>]]</span> 11:59, 9 October 2010 (UTC) |
Revision as of 11:59, 9 October 2010
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Article name: the definitive title for this article
The title of this article should be "Queen Elizabeth, consort of George VI, King of Great Britain". Support please? With references from: "Queen Elizabeth, the Queen Mother"; and "Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon" (talk) 17:59, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
- I would oppose and I am sure the others will disagree with you too. First of all, that title is invented. It would also be againt conventions and against consistency in the Category:British royal consorts. It would be unnecessarily long as well. I don't think there is any need to explain more. Surtsicna (talk) 18:54, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
- We've been here before (quite a few times) and the consensus was that this is the most appropriate title. Deb (talk) 12:33, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
- If that is the case, the article on "Diana, Princess of Wales" should be renamed.
Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon was never a name she bore, unless you insist on using her birth name where the Honourable is dropped. At marriage she was The Lady Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon. There doesn't seem to be any consistency on Wikipedia. Just the lowest possible style used for any particular person, even if it is 100% incorrect. Marxists. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.243.255.184 (talk) 11:25, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
Precedence after marriage
I've read a few times recently that after her marriage, the Duchess of York was the fourth lady of the land after the Queen (Mary), Queen Alexandra and Princess Mary. While this fits the general principle of precedence - that only the wife of the eldest son ranks above the daughters - it does not seem to be how it is done today. Every table of precendence I have seen recently ranks the Countess of Wessex above the Princess Royal. Any thoughts? Was this practised changed at any time or is it simply a personal decision of the monarch. GBS thewiki (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 13:09, 19 January 2010 (UTC).
- In my 1970s Kelly's Handbook, the order of precedence for ladies puts Princess Anne before the wives of Sovereign's younger sons. So, if today they rank above her, then that is a recent change. DrKiernan (talk) 13:59, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
British Dominions
User:DrKiernan inisists on keeping the term "British Dominions" in the lead. This is incorrect, as, by the time of George VI's reign, the word "British" had been dropped and "Dominion" was used by itself. Even before George VI came to the trhone, the 1927 Balfour Declaration uses the word "Dominion" about three dozen times and only once places "British" before it, in the King's title. Similarly, the 1931 Statute of Westminster uses only "Dominion". For historical accuracy, "British Dominions" should be kept out of the sentence in question, too. If "Dominions" alone doesn't suffice, "Dominions of the Commonwealth", or something like that will do. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 13:11, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
- I'll assume that, instead of explaining himself here, DrKiernan's addition of two links into the article was his way of communicating that the inclusion of the term "British Dominions" in George VI's title is proof enough that the term can be accurately applied to the countries of the Commonwealth, other than the United Kingdom, in the time of George VI's reign. That seems like WP:OR, given that the title didn't actually reflect the geo-political reality; Ireland was still in the sovereign's title long after Ireland ceased to be a monarchy. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 18:40, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
Royal tours
User:DrKiernan seems adamant that the state visit to France by King George VI and Queen Elizabeth was not on behalf of the United Kingdom, nor was their State Visit to the United States on behalf of Canada. If there's some question as to which country they visited France for, I'd be intrigued to see which it was other than the United Kingdom. And, as for Canada, the sources affirm that it was as King and Queen of Canada that the royal couple visited the US:
- "Secondly, they would arrive as sovereigns of Canada."[p. 603] "[S]ignificantly, the Canadian factor was highlighted, it being emphasized they were 'here not as the King and Queen of England but as the King and Queen of Canada'."[p. 611][1]
- "It was the King of Canada who was crossing the border, not just the British king..."[p. 60] "The King of Canada and the British Empire was visiting a neighbour..."[p. 65] "...[T]o assert Canadian autonomy by making clear that it was the King of Canada who was visiting the American President."[p. 66][2]
- "Lascelles kept remarking that they had tried to get the people in England to see that this was a visit from Canada to the U.S..."p. 247 "It is a complete victory of what I have fought for - in the way of recognition of Canada's status, on the basis of equality in external as well as internal affairs to that of the United Kingdom itself. It is not without significance that His Majesty says: 'I have decided not to invite a minister from the United Kingdom to attend me on this occasion.'"p. 414
Obviously, British officials tried to piggy-back their own diplomatic affairs onto the US visit by the King and Queen, but the royal couple were still there specifically as the sovereigns of Canada. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 14:23, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
You're wrong, which anyone looking at your own sources can verify:
- "The vist of King George VI...was the first by a British monarch...Extending a state visit to Canada" (p.599) " "the visit enabled Britain to strengthen Anglo-American solidarity...the Foreign Office as it contemplated launching the visit...the visit might significantly improve the prospect of American support for Britain...represented a liability as much as opportunity for war-threatened Britain" (p.600), etc. etc.
- "The King of Canada and the British Empire was visiting a neighbour [my emphasis]...A British Commonwealth king was in the United States for the first time...For the British Government it was a chance to cultivate solidarity with transatlantic cousins" (p.65) "A garden party at the British embassy...the President welcomed the King and Queen of Great Britain, of our neighbour Canada, and of all the far-flung British Commonwealth...In response the King said From my other Dominions, from the United Kingdom and from all my empire I carry to you expressions of the utmost cordiality" etc. etc.
- Instead of selectively misquoting the source, why not complete it?: "... but they would not look at it that way. They were looking at it as a visit direct from England." (p 247)
You have no sources stating that the King's visit to the United States was "on behalf of Canada". DrKiernan (talk) 15:47, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
- I'm wrong about what (though, you've at least elevated me from liar to wrong)? The part where I said the British officials used the visit of the King of Canada to promote British affairs? And, yes, some in Britain were aghast at Canada asserting it's sovereignty, and through the King, no less. But so what? The visit was still of the King of Canada to the US, to foster Canadian-US relations, the Canadian prime minister, not the British one, or any other British minister, being the monarch's minister in attendance, second in protocol after the sovereign and his consort. That much is also affirmed by reliable sources. You're trying to turn things backwards, as though the state visit was on behalf of the British government and Canada was the secondary player tacked on just to appease the little colonials. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 16:50, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
- You're wrong that the visit was "on behalf of Canada". DrKiernan (talk) 17:17, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
- Oh? In light of the above evidence, which country was it on behalf of, then? --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 17:49, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
- You're wrong that the visit was "on behalf of Canada". DrKiernan (talk) 17:17, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
- Just a minor point the King said From Canada, which we have just left and whither we shall return, I bring you to-day the warm greeting of a neighbour and a trusted friend. From my other Dominions, from the United Kingdom and from all my empire I carry to you expressions of the utmost cordiality and good will. ...' MilborneOne (talk) 16:28, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
Yet again, DrKiernan makes an edit to the article instead of participating in discussion: this edit, we're left to assume, means he thinks the tour was on behalf of the United Kingdom. The sources provided above do mention that the British embassy was included in the US tour, but they claim otherwise on which country the king was representing. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 11:59, 9 October 2010 (UTC)