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RFC Are these sources the same?
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
RFC: Are these sources the same?
There has been removal of a referenced claim from the article.[1] During a move the claim "and there is relatively low risk to others from the vapor." was removed. The edit comments says "remove duplication". There is a talk page section on the topic found here.[2].
The sources in question, both agencies are part of the UK department of health NHS Smokefree site from the British National Health Service and the PHE Report from Public Health England.
Policies that control WP:VER WP:RS and WP:MEDRS AlbinoFerret 06:36, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
- Sorry not seeing what is wrong with this dif [3]? The content was just moved? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:02, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
- A claim was removed, perhaps you missed that. But the specific question is are the sources the same. AlbinoFerret 23:25, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
- Sorry not seeing what is wrong with this dif [3]? The content was just moved? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:02, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
Please discuss below in the discussion section
Are the sources the same or different?
- Different sources They are clearly not the same source. They are from two different agencies with distinct url's. While they may say similar things the wording is not the same so one is not a copy of the other. AlbinoFerret 06:53, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
- Different sources,, clearly While the conclusions are the same, the wording is not, and it never hurts to have statements from multiple sources anyway, as long as they are high quality. And they certainly are in this case. LesVegas (talk) 17:12, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- The websites are related. The UK NHS website says "Smokefree is a public health campaign initiated and supported by Public Health England, an executive agency of the Department of Health"[4] The NHS website was created by PHE. QuackGuru (talk) 18:54, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- You should make up your mind whether it is related or not.--TMCk (talk) 19:11, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- Should we then remove all the duplicative findings from the US government agencies like the CDC and FDA? Should we remove similar statements from different parts of the WHO? AlbinoFerret 19:40, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- Thats unresponsive to the question, the question is are they the same, not are they similar. AlbinoFerret 22:59, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- You should make up your mind whether it is related or not.--TMCk (talk) 19:11, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- Does it matter? If it's the same claim supported by independent sources then we have two references at the end of the claim. Why waste time with an RfC if the only difference is either 1 or 2 references at the end of the same claim? CFCF 💌 📧 22:47, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- They look related to me You are welcome to make your case they are separate sources, as you have been all along Cloudjpk (talk) 22:54, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- Thats unresponsive to the question, the question is are they the same, not are they similar. AlbinoFerret 22:59, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- Different sources They base their views and opinions on the same background, and thus come to similar/same conclusion, just as many other such agencies and organizations do. Why should there be/is there a different standard between pro and contra organizations? --Kim D. Petersen 06:34, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
- Different sources It doesn't matter that they reference the same study. These sources use multiple fact-checking tools and are independently reliable sources of information. --Iamozy (talk) 19:27, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
Should we remove claims from the articles that cover the similar things regardless of who created the source?
This question is too broad. QuackGuru (talk) 18:54, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- No We need a simple across the board rule. Instead of allowing editors to pick and choose what claims they want to add that are similar but remove others they disagree with. AlbinoFerret 19:11, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
Of course the question is too broad. Editors apply judgment. Cloudjpk (talk) 22:54, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- Idealy we shouldn't single cite individual statements/papers, but instead strive to summarize the literature with a nod towards notable outliers, as per Wikipedia's pillars. But since this isn't done in this article, which instead consists mainly from individually cherry-picked sentences from papers - then the answer is No. --Kim D. Petersen 06:38, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
- No Doing anything else invites gaming. We need to be consistent and should never allow cherry picking to take place with regard to claims from articles that cover similar things like this. LesVegas (talk) 19:13, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
- Consolidate If two reliable sources agree on a statement, say that. But there's no need to state a single claim in two separate instances. --Iamozy (talk) 19:33, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
Should we remove claims from the articles if they are from the same group or author and discuss similar things?
It would be better to provide a specific example. QuackGuru (talk) 18:54, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- The pages are full of duplicative claims, read it. AlbinoFerret 19:12, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- Comment This should be applied the same across the articles, regardless of the conclusions. We should not pick out things we disagree with to remove. AlbinoFerret 19:36, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
Specifics needed here in my opinion. Cloudjpk (talk) 22:54, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- Again in an ideal world, we shouldn't have an eye for individual papers/authors, but instead focus on what the weight of the literature tells us. Instead there should be summarization of what the literature in general says about particular subgroupings of particulars about the topic. So yes: we should, but currently we can't. --Kim D. Petersen 06:41, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
- Comment MEDRS is already clear about this: editors should not reject high quality sources because of content or conclusions, but instead focus on the quality of the source. LesVegas (talk) 19:15, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
Should we remove sourced claims if they are based on findings from other sources?
It depends on the claim and the sourcing. This is another vague question. QuackGuru (talk) 18:54, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- No That allows gaming of the system and editors picking and choosing to remove things they disagree with. AlbinoFerret 19:13, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- Confused about this question. But again, see my two other answers: We should summarize the literature - not focus on individual papers/authors. --Kim D. Petersen 06:43, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
- Comment is there an example of this having occurred in the past? I too am confused about this question. LesVegas (talk) 19:17, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
- No, LesVegas so far we have lots of duplicate findings and I cant remember any others having been removed. AlbinoFerret 23:37, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
- Well, every article and talk page should have some reasonable consistency. It's unfortunate that parameters like these need to be put in place to keep editors from removing duplications when an editor just feels like it, but I entirely think it's reasonable. I will say it again: duplications should never be used for multiple government agencies and should only be removed in cases of much lower source-status, such as systematic reviews all the way down to primary studies. But as a general rule, duplications don't need to be removed and I think only should be considered in cases of lower level sources. This was clearly not such a case. LesVegas (talk) 00:34, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- No, LesVegas so far we have lots of duplicate findings and I cant remember any others having been removed. AlbinoFerret 23:37, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
Discussion
It seems that there is some confusion, British National Health Service is quite different from Public Health England. They are not the same agency. They are both agencies of the UK department of health. Just like in the US we have a Department of Health, and the FDA, CDC, ect. From the Public Health England wikipedia article
AlbinoFerret 23:13, 3 November 2015 (UTC)Public Health England (PHE) is an executive agency of the Department of Health in the United Kingdom that began operating on 1 April 2013. Its formation came as a result of reorganisation of the National Health Service (NHS) in England outlined in the Health and Social Care Act 2012. It took on the role of the Health Protection Agency, the National Treatment Agency for Substance Misuse and a number of other health bodies.[1]
- Yes, claims by the NIH are different from those by the FDA or CDC, for instance. Governmental bodies often have nuanced statements that differ slightly depending on context (and that's interesting and helpful) and even when they are exactly uniform, multiple such sources should still be used in tandem to illustrate consensus. LesVegas (talk) 19:21, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
- I have requested a close at WP:ANRFC listing this one and the related one below. AlbinoFerret 19:41, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
Questions added after the start of the RfC above
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Should we remove or keep the text? Is the text redundant or different? QuackGuru (talk) 23:39, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
Should we remove text sourced to the UK NHS website if it is repetitive?
- Remove duplication. In 2015 a report commissioned by Public Health England concluded that e-cigarettes "release negligible levels of nicotine into ambient air with no identified health risks to bystanders".[99] They found that their safety won't be fully known for many years, and there is relatively low risk to others from the vapor.[97][5] The part "release negligible levels of nicotine into ambient air with no identified health risks to bystanders" and "there is relatively low risk to others from the vapor" is repetitive. They virtually mean the same thing but in different words. QuackGuru (talk) 18:54, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- No We dont do this with any other source that is in the articles. When multiple sources come to the same conclusion or are based on other sources they remain. I will add they only appear to be duplication because they were moved together from their orignal location in Harm reduction. AlbinoFerret 19:08, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- Remove duplication Seems much the same source saying much the same thing. Of course it doesn't follow that all other sources are repetitive. When different sources come to the same conclusion, that's hardly the same as the same source saying the same thing twice. Cloudjpk (talk) 22:54, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- Loaded question - it implies that there is repetition. Rather invalidates the RfC. (defaults to No) --Kim D. Petersen 06:18, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
- No There are many reasons for duplication or partial duplication of citation or external opinion. Duplication may be justified for example to indicate the range of opinions or support (say from different times, places, or schools), or to include citations of sources that overlap but are not identical. Removal should require individual justification, such as for when someone strings together half a dozen assorted citations to lend support to a contentious point, not merely because one editor thinks that one citation is on principle adequate, and two must accordingly be excessive. JonRichfield (talk) 08:19, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
- No I have looked at the text and it might be nice to rewrite it completely to make a non-redundant, stable, cogent, watertight document, but by the nature of the topic and situation that will not happen. The material is not unduly repetitive because its degree of repetition conveys some of the climate of opinion in different bodies concerned in the matter. It would be simplistic assume that a single reference to a single position of a single source amounts to the same as invoking more than one source in a matter open to opinion and position rather than undebatably rigid fact. If it were a matter instead of tediously quoting a long roster of sources, that would be another matter. JonRichfield (talk) 04:53, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
- No Different bodies even coming to the same conclusion illustrates consensus. Where I would suggest duplications should be removed are in lower level claims, such as systematic reviews, which often go either way, and are often cherry-picked by editors with a strong bias. But, no, consensus statements or statements by national health bodies, even if the statements are exactly the same, only further illustrate consensus about a claim and these are our best sources and should, in fact, be used liberally. LesVegas (talk) 19:35, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
- Per Petersen: "Loaded question - it implies that there is repetition. Rather invalidates the RfC. (defaults to No)". Not enough information has been presented to determine whether even a single citation is redundant, much less whether a whole swath of them are. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 05:40, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
Should we remove repetitive text from the UK NHS website when there is another claim from the Public Health England website?
- Remove duplication. AlbinoFerret stated "By moving them together you created the problem you want to fix."[6] I came to the conclusion it is redundant text. "In 2015, the Public Health England released a report stating that e-cigarettes are estimated to be 95% less harmful than smoking,[84]" "The UK National Health Service stated in 2015 that e-cigarettes have approximately 5% of the risk of tobacco cigarettes.[86]" Wherever the text I highlighted in bold is placed it is still duplication. Both are from related UK organisations. The "Positions of medical organizations" section is meant to be a WP:SUMMARY. It is not a summary when the "approximately 5% of the risk of tobacco cigarettes" claim is not in the main article. It is WP:UNDUEWEIGHT to include both. QuackGuru (talk) 18:54, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- Let me get this straight. First you remove the part from the positions article and then you come here to say it doesn't belong here because it's not over there?--TMCk (talk) 19:20, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- I initially added it but I came to the conclusion it was repetitive. QuackGuru (talk) 19:28, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- Let me get this straight. First you remove the part from the positions article and then you come here to say it doesn't belong here because it's not over there?--TMCk (talk) 19:20, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- No We dont do this with any other source that is in the articles. When multiple sources come to the same conclusion or are based on other sources they remain. AlbinoFerret 19:09, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- But are the two sources in question really multiple sources? Seems like much the same source. Perhaps I'm missing something here. Cloudjpk (talk) 22:54, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- The British National Health Service (NHS) is quite different from Public Health England (PHE). They are both agencies in the UK department of health. AlbinoFerret 23:20, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- That's the case you're welcome to make. Do they have different missions, funding, purposes, clientele, activities, staff? Would it be possible for them to come to different conclusions? And so on. It's a question of these sources; not a broad question of editing policy.Cloudjpk (talk) 01:42, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
- The answer to these concerns is yes they are diffrent. Much like the FDA and CDC in the US. AlbinoFerret 01:51, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
- That's the case you're welcome to make. Do they have different missions, funding, purposes, clientele, activities, staff? Would it be possible for them to come to different conclusions? And so on. It's a question of these sources; not a broad question of editing policy.Cloudjpk (talk) 01:42, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
- The British National Health Service (NHS) is quite different from Public Health England (PHE). They are both agencies in the UK department of health. AlbinoFerret 23:20, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- Just as loaded a question. NHS != PHE according to (amongst others) QuackGuru, thus the two are not the same and statements similar but not same => No. --Kim D. Petersen 06:20, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
- Remove duplication. The sources are similar if not identical; the conclusions are identical. Cloudjpk (talk) 06:47, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
- No, for the same reasons as AlbinoFerret above, plus what I said in the immediately previous sub-question. In any case, removing duplication may sound fine, but not when the duplication is relevant and functional. The articles we write are not permitted to be essays (OR and similar religious war cries) and we accordingly are compelled to limit ourselves to citations that might entail redundancy. JonRichfield (talk) 04:53, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
- No Repetitive text and repetitive claims possibly shouldn't be used if we have two similar claims from lower level systematic reviews, of which there are now many for E-cigs and vapors, but should always be done when it's high level governmental health authorities making claims, even when the claims happen to be identical, because that illustrates consensus amongst public health authorities analyzing meta-data. LesVegas (talk) 19:37, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
- Why not simply say that the conclusion is endorsed by the two separate sources? If you read the sources, both the statement that e-cigs have 5% the risk of normal cigs and have 95% less risk than normal cigs are just two way to state the same conclusion. Stating it two separate times with the wording slightly different implies that the two agencies conducted independent risk studies and came to the same conclusion. In reality, they both fact-checked and endorsed the same study. --Iamozy (talk) 19:52, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
- No, they're difference sources, of the kind we need in order to establish the breadth with which the claim in question is made and supported. See WP:OVERCITE for a good rundown on when actual citation overkill is happening. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 05:40, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- Consolidate When there are two reliable sources that agree on the same thing, we only state it once and cite the two sources. We don't say it twice two different ways. --Iamozy (talk)
Discussion for text
I started these new questions because the questions for the other RfC were too vague IMO. According to User:AlbinoFerret the conclusions are the same. Correct me if I am wrong. QuackGuru (talk) 23:39, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- So its ok when you add duplicative conclusions [7] but not others? AlbinoFerret 17:52, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- I was in the process of improving the text. I removed the duplication and SYN. I did the same for this page. I recently removed a sentence that was redundant. Do you agree with removing the redundancy? User:AlbinoFerret, are you still claiming that adding redundant text improves the page? QuackGuru (talk) 19:27, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- The way you word that question "are you still claiming that adding redundant text improves the page?" is a linguistic trap that misrepresents all that I have said. That you have now removed some duplication is a good thing, remove a bunch more. I do not believe that the NHS is a duplication, and moving it caused any resemblance to duplication, The statement belongs in harm reduction and the deleted part restored. AlbinoFerret 00:35, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
- I was in the process of improving the text. I removed the duplication and SYN. I did the same for this page. I recently removed a sentence that was redundant. Do you agree with removing the redundancy? User:AlbinoFerret, are you still claiming that adding redundant text improves the page? QuackGuru (talk) 19:27, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
Merge Discussion - Sub articles Safety, Aerosol, and E-liquid
- The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
As per the discussion above I would like to start the moving/merging of these articles.
- 1. Move the Safety information from Aerosol to Safety (if it isnt already there).
- 2. Move the Aerosol section of Safety to Aerosol and replace it with a summery and link to Aersol.
- 3. Move the E-liquid information to Aerosol and create/rename Electronic cigarette aerosol and e-liquid. Changing E-liquid to a redirect to the renamed Aerosol page.
Thoughts? Of course I support this. AlbinoFerret 15:09, 7 December 2015 (UTC) Pinging SMcCandlish and Mystery Wolff as they took part in the discussion above. AlbinoFerret
- I'm broadly in favour.—S Marshall T/C 18:12, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose I think it's fine as it is. We've heard much discussion of articles getting too long; a merge will make them longer. Cloudjpk (talk) 19:47, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
- Support particularly with 1 and 2. I think 3 is a good idea now but I could see things coming out in research that lead to it being split again in the next 18 months. SPACKlick (talk) 20:39, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
- Since the e-liquid page will become a redirect, reversing that and making it a page is pretty easy. All the info will still be in history. AlbinoFerret 21:03, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, move and merge. There is no need to keep it as is for a reason that might or might not happen at some point in the future. Also, as discussed earlier, it makes sense to have liquid and aerosol combined and "safety" in the already existing "safety of" article.--TMCk (talk) 21:06, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
- I agree, and as it sits now Aerosol is a coatrack, nothing was moved over to Aerosol from Safety when the page was created, just copied. Nothing will be lost and we will end up with two nice sized articles and a redirect for e-liquid to move into if necessary in the future. I will be doing all the work in sandboxes and moving it all in two edits once everything is done so as not to disrupt the pages in case readers are reading it. AlbinoFerret 21:23, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
- Support. This would improve the logic of the articles for our readers, and reduce the number of avenues of strife. Support #3, not just 1 & 2; while the proposed name is not the shortest possible name such an article could have it's the most WP:PRECISE, and is in keeping with WP:DESCRIPTDIS. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 21:29, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
- Support. Although i agree with SPACKlick that e-liquid and aerosol will end up getting split again. But it should happen organically, so that once there is enough content to split, then it happens. --Kim D. Petersen 22:50, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
- Same view as stated above, which seems inline: PROPOSAL Merge e-liquid and electronic cigarette aerosol into one Called: E-Liquid and E-Liquid Aerosol (Vape)
- I can see removing (Vape) but it does add clarification with a unique word, that is not Vapor. E-liquid is not vaporized by the dictionary definitions. However Vape is a new word.
- Removal of Electronic Cigarette is good, because its more associate with one variety of "Vaping" equipment. E-Liquid is used in all forms of EC and later generations of Electronic cigarettes and MODs. E-Liquid is devices agnostic, while "Electronic Cigarette Aerosol" is not.
- The aerosolization of E-Liquid makes the vapor constituents not changed very much. Radically different that combustion artifacts. They are close enough to group to one.Mystery Wolff (talk) 07:11, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- Same view as stated above, which seems inline: PROPOSAL Merge e-liquid and electronic cigarette aerosol into one Called: E-Liquid and E-Liquid Aerosol (Vape)
- Oppose There is
simply nounclear benefit in merging the articles, as it will only cause two related topics to be inaccurately contained within one article. There is sufficient content for two separate articles, even in its current form. We do not merge articles in order to later split them when both clearly fulfill WP:NOTE. The current article titles are very clear as to what they refer to, a new title would not be. CFCF 💌 📧 19:42, 8 December 2015 (UTC)Edit:CFCF 💌 📧 17:56, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
- To clarify, my concern is that readers will not find the proposed article, or will be unsure as to what it covers. I'm also missing a proposed new article name. CFCF 💌 📧 19:47, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- There is no "new" article, simply a merging of two that already exist. E-liquid will become a redirect so anyone looking for e-liquid will be able to find it. If e-liquid grows, something that really hasnt happened, and at best those thinking it will are looking into the crystal ball, the redirect can be easily undone. Also e-liquid and the aerosol of e-cigs are pretty much made of the same things and so have at least that in common. Its a really bad fit elsewhere. AlbinoFerret 20:05, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- I just don't think the new title is clear enough, as creating it would require pretty much two separate parts: first the aerosol section, then the e-liquid section. I might support it in case the title were in any way more clear – I do see the benefit of tying the topics together, but I'd be more supportive of moving everything to E-liquid and having aerosol as a section (and of course keeping a safety section with a {{main}}). See the policy for titles including WP:AND. CFCF 💌 📧 20:10, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- WP:AND allows related topics with the use of the word and. The problem with moving it to e-liquid is that the majority of the information is about the aerosol and not e-liquid. AlbinoFerret 20:16, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- But the aerosol is E-liquid, is it not? It just strikes me as a far more natural division and a much easier one to build an article upon. If the alternative is to include "and" I support merging it there instead.
- I think the reader stands to benefit, and it seems due to include information on the use/aerosolization in the main article on E-liquid CFCF 💌 📧 20:25, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- Not necessarily the same, though they share some chemicals in common. There are some changes that happen during the aerosol process and there is information dealing with particles, and second and third hand exposure. That information is at least double the e-liquid stuff if not more. Also when I do the work others are probably going to want to make changes and bring more things to one or the other, thats fine, more power to them. They will be in the same article. So far what I see is a problem with the articles name when merged. This can be dealt with after the work is done if need be. I really dont care about the name or for it at the present name, and if anyone has a good suggestion for the name of the combined article I am all for working it out so the best name is found. At present we have a coatrack article, my goal is to make the page a true daughter page. AlbinoFerret 20:36, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- I don't really understand what you mean by that. What is a coatrack aricle? Daughter pages should include summaries of main page topics and expand upon them, and any article on eliquid/aerosol must include information on the safety of their use. Your current draft User:AlbinoFerret/sandbox/ecig Aerosol has with the following removal of safety information [8], [9], [10] moved in the wrong direction. I cannot support a move/merge if the only reason for doing so is to remove safety information. CFCF 💌 📧 21:39, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- A WP:COATRACK is when an editor takes and copies things from one article to create another leaving the original article as it was to not focus on the topic but to create a page that is on another topic. Aerosol was not a daughter page with a movement of a section from Safety to aerosol and a summery put in its place. It simply duplicated what was on Safety, not fucused on Aerosol, but the Safety of Chemicals. So in effect we had two Safety articles with one having only information from the other. What I have done is move back the single claim from Aerosol that wasnt on Safety and the chart on chemicals to Safety, and broken out the Aerosol section to Aerosol. Nothing was removed from Wikipedia, but the claims that were Safety related should be on Safety. The claims that are on Aerosol should be on Aerosol. Granted some things will probably still need to be added. That I leave after the pages is done so others can add and edit. The sole point of this proposal is to create a true daughter page and not a coatrack. Are you in favor of keeping a coatrack? AlbinoFerret 21:53, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- I don't really understand what you mean by that. What is a coatrack aricle? Daughter pages should include summaries of main page topics and expand upon them, and any article on eliquid/aerosol must include information on the safety of their use. Your current draft User:AlbinoFerret/sandbox/ecig Aerosol has with the following removal of safety information [8], [9], [10] moved in the wrong direction. I cannot support a move/merge if the only reason for doing so is to remove safety information. CFCF 💌 📧 21:39, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- Not necessarily the same, though they share some chemicals in common. There are some changes that happen during the aerosol process and there is information dealing with particles, and second and third hand exposure. That information is at least double the e-liquid stuff if not more. Also when I do the work others are probably going to want to make changes and bring more things to one or the other, thats fine, more power to them. They will be in the same article. So far what I see is a problem with the articles name when merged. This can be dealt with after the work is done if need be. I really dont care about the name or for it at the present name, and if anyone has a good suggestion for the name of the combined article I am all for working it out so the best name is found. At present we have a coatrack article, my goal is to make the page a true daughter page. AlbinoFerret 20:36, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- WP:AND allows related topics with the use of the word and. The problem with moving it to e-liquid is that the majority of the information is about the aerosol and not e-liquid. AlbinoFerret 20:16, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- I just don't think the new title is clear enough, as creating it would require pretty much two separate parts: first the aerosol section, then the e-liquid section. I might support it in case the title were in any way more clear – I do see the benefit of tying the topics together, but I'd be more supportive of moving everything to E-liquid and having aerosol as a section (and of course keeping a safety section with a {{main}}). See the policy for titles including WP:AND. CFCF 💌 📧 20:10, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- There is no "new" article, simply a merging of two that already exist. E-liquid will become a redirect so anyone looking for e-liquid will be able to find it. If e-liquid grows, something that really hasnt happened, and at best those thinking it will are looking into the crystal ball, the redirect can be easily undone. Also e-liquid and the aerosol of e-cigs are pretty much made of the same things and so have at least that in common. Its a really bad fit elsewhere. AlbinoFerret 20:05, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- To clarify, my concern is that readers will not find the proposed article, or will be unsure as to what it covers. I'm also missing a proposed new article name. CFCF 💌 📧 19:47, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- Support There seems ample benefit in merging these articles, since they are closely related, and this should be done as long as organic transitions can be achieved (and I think they can). Multiple related topics should always be contained within one article, if it is possible to do so within a good amount of space (and you can here). There is, frankly, not enough content for separate articles. LesVegas (talk) 05:06, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
- Your entire argument falls on the fact that there is evidently enough content for separate articles, that is not the topic of the discussion. The discussion covers whether there is benefit in merging, not that there is insufficient coverage to justify two articles. CFCF 💌 📧 10:37, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
- Apparently you didn't read my argument all that well, especially the part where I said, "multiple related topics should always be contained within one article", "as long as organic transitions can be achieved" especially if we're combining near-stubs to form one extensive and cohesive article, which is how we should be doing things around here. The reader always stands to benefit from one article containing all the information on a related topic they might need, instead of never being aware of an article they're looking for even existing all because they're small separate articles floating around in cyber-Wikispace. LesVegas (talk) 14:22, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
- Have you looked at the articles? They are very far from stubs and are on markedly separate topics. Combining overlapping concepts or related topics in a single article at all times is an absurd statement – you can see policy for clarification: WP:PAGEDECIDE CFCF 💌 📧 19:22, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
- I said they were near-stubs. Aerosol is a near-stub. E-liquid is a near-stub. Yes I have looked at them. And many of the safety concerns are from aerosol and E-liquid anyway so combining these into safety is the most reasonable thing to do. LesVegas (talk) 23:51, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
- That is just plain wrong, Electronic cigarette aerosol is 18,185 bytes [11], while E-liquid is 15,173 bytes [12]. If you believe the articles are stubs or even near-stubs, I would advise you to read WP:STUB. CFCF 💌 📧 08:02, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
- Taking into account the pictures and other formatting those may be the sizes CFCF, but sizes are of prose usually. But the readable prose of Aerosol is 7.3kb and E-liquid is 4.6kb. Stubs. AlbinoFerret 09:56, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
- That is just plain wrong, Electronic cigarette aerosol is 18,185 bytes [11], while E-liquid is 15,173 bytes [12]. If you believe the articles are stubs or even near-stubs, I would advise you to read WP:STUB. CFCF 💌 📧 08:02, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
- I said they were near-stubs. Aerosol is a near-stub. E-liquid is a near-stub. Yes I have looked at them. And many of the safety concerns are from aerosol and E-liquid anyway so combining these into safety is the most reasonable thing to do. LesVegas (talk) 23:51, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
- Have you looked at the articles? They are very far from stubs and are on markedly separate topics. Combining overlapping concepts or related topics in a single article at all times is an absurd statement – you can see policy for clarification: WP:PAGEDECIDE CFCF 💌 📧 19:22, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
- Apparently you didn't read my argument all that well, especially the part where I said, "multiple related topics should always be contained within one article", "as long as organic transitions can be achieved" especially if we're combining near-stubs to form one extensive and cohesive article, which is how we should be doing things around here. The reader always stands to benefit from one article containing all the information on a related topic they might need, instead of never being aware of an article they're looking for even existing all because they're small separate articles floating around in cyber-Wikispace. LesVegas (talk) 14:22, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
- Your entire argument falls on the fact that there is evidently enough content for separate articles, that is not the topic of the discussion. The discussion covers whether there is benefit in merging, not that there is insufficient coverage to justify two articles. CFCF 💌 📧 10:37, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
Generally 1.5kb is the limit for a stub article. These are either 3 or 5 times as large. The other potential cut-off mentioned at WP:STUB is 250 words, and the articles are:
- E-liquid — 707 words
- Electronic cigarette aerosol — 1069 words
Hence, I repeat—that argument is simply wrong. CFCF 💌 📧 17:17, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
- In any event, they are small articles, nitpicking on calling it a stub or a small article isnt important. Combining them will put together two phases of basically the same thing together on one page making it easier for readers to easily find information on the different phases. AlbinoFerret 17:44, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
- Which I'm not arguing against, but if we combine them it must under a reasonable title, with a reasonable section on safety—and not under faulty premises. If the entire argument relies (As LesVegas's did) on a statement that just isn't true, then it should be disregarded. We can't just make stuff up/support crazy statements because it suits a particular point of view. CFCF 💌 📧 17:52, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
- Thats your opinion, I disagree. His opinion on putting together topics that are closely related is a good reason. That you disagree is evident. AlbinoFerret 18:07, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
- Which I'm not arguing against, but if we combine them it must under a reasonable title, with a reasonable section on safety—and not under faulty premises. If the entire argument relies (As LesVegas's did) on a statement that just isn't true, then it should be disregarded. We can't just make stuff up/support crazy statements because it suits a particular point of view. CFCF 💌 📧 17:52, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
Merger steps
The steps laid out in the above closed merger discussion are complete. AlbinoFerret 20:47, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
Economics section
We have: "In the US, big tobacco has a significant share of the e-cigarette market,[1] and they are the major producers.[2]"
- ^ Meera Senthilingam (23 March 2015). "E-cigarettes: Helping smokers quit, or fueling a new addiction?". CNN.
- ^ substitute direct PMC link
- I added the "in the US" as both sources are US-only, and for example the PHE report does not say this for the UK (which I think they would have done, if they knew it to be true). The first source is from CNN, the second from an open-access paper by an MD, who references it to "21. Legacy Tobacco Documents Library. Legacy Tobacco Documents Library. San Francisco, CA: University of California San Francisco Library", which is, let's say, a tad vague. We report elsewhere in the section that Nillson can't track sales of independent manufacturers selling to vape shops, so whereas big baccy's sales of (mostly) cigalikes via mainstream retail are apparently dropping in 2015 (WSJ etc), the situation of the independent sector is less clear. It's questionable whether information to support the second claim exists in the public sphere, though no doubt industry insiders have more info which they will treat as commercially confidential.
At the least we need better sources to support anything we say on this. Johnbod (talk) 16:05, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
- Im taking a look for sources. This one [14] is ok but there isnt a lot of information, the nice thing is its from 2015. AlbinoFerret 16:23, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, the economics section is another one that needs a lot of work. I suggest:- (1) Move and redirect the current content of Vape shop to Economics of electronic cigarettes; (2) Paste the text currently in Electronic cigarette#Economics into that article; and then (3) Rewrite this section of the proper e-cig article as a couple of concise and intelligible paragraphs.—S Marshall T/C 19:36, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
- Sounds like a great plan. AlbinoFerret 20:07, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
- Since the Afd proposal for Vape shop, which was pretty similar, has just been heavily defeated, you can't exactly do that. I don't know we have enough material for a proper sub-articles, & I think we need more than a couple of paras here. Johnbod (talk) 04:15, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
- Per WP:DP and the subsection Deletion of articles if the page is kept "the page is kept and is again subject to normal editing, merging, or redirecting as appropriate." AlbinoFerret 05:58, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
- Yes "as appropriate", which doesn't mean flouting a clear and recent community decision. Johnbod (talk) 18:07, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
- Never said or intended to flout a community discussion. I just quoted it was subject to further editing, merger, and redirect. The community consensus is not to delete, not that it must stay in its present form, and nothing is planed to be deleted. But at this point we are no longer discussing deletion but merger. I am sure more discussions will need to happen. AlbinoFerret 18:13, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
- Yes "as appropriate", which doesn't mean flouting a clear and recent community decision. Johnbod (talk) 18:07, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
- Per WP:DP and the subsection Deletion of articles if the page is kept "the page is kept and is again subject to normal editing, merging, or redirecting as appropriate." AlbinoFerret 05:58, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
- Since the Afd proposal for Vape shop, which was pretty similar, has just been heavily defeated, you can't exactly do that. I don't know we have enough material for a proper sub-articles, & I think we need more than a couple of paras here. Johnbod (talk) 04:15, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
- Sounds like a great plan. AlbinoFerret 20:07, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
- I'm disappointed to say this, but I think that the situation is that editors want to keep Quack's forks, stupid though I think that is. We can ask again in five months in the hope that consensus will have changed by then. In the meantime I do suggest we use the forks as containers for the most horribly-written parts of this article, and the obviously missing fork is Economics of electronic cigarettes. We're not proposing to delete the text of vape shop, nor to turn vape shop into a redlink.—S Marshall T/C 08:51, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
- They aren't actually WP:FORKs at all, but regular sub-articles, diffused to keep this one manageable, which I'm surprised you don't support. It doesn't help to use the term, which has a specific meaning here. The work was mostly done by Quack, but as I recall there were discussions here agreeing the changes beforehand. They seem appropriate to me. Most of the detail is already in the sub-articles, as it should be, but if not some can be added there. At the moment I don't see we have enough on Economics of electronic cigarettes for a sub-article. A lot of the most basic information seems to be unavailable. Johnbod (talk) 18:07, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
- Where in the articles can I find the summery and link to Vape shop showing where it was broken out? AlbinoFerret 18:14, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
- Well, Johnbod, my actual view is that a few well-chosen sub-articles would probably be a good idea but the easiest way to get there from here involves a little high explosive. I didn't say so during the deletion discussions because some of my fellow editors have an irritating way of saying "User thinks there should be an article with this title so just keep this one and adapt it" -- so I chose to present the case for completely deleting them.—S Marshall T/C 18:25, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
- Where in the articles can I find the summery and link to Vape shop showing where it was broken out? AlbinoFerret 18:14, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
- They aren't actually WP:FORKs at all, but regular sub-articles, diffused to keep this one manageable, which I'm surprised you don't support. It doesn't help to use the term, which has a specific meaning here. The work was mostly done by Quack, but as I recall there were discussions here agreeing the changes beforehand. They seem appropriate to me. Most of the detail is already in the sub-articles, as it should be, but if not some can be added there. At the moment I don't see we have enough on Economics of electronic cigarettes for a sub-article. A lot of the most basic information seems to be unavailable. Johnbod (talk) 18:07, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
- The sources in the Economics section are weak, and about half of the statements in it are outdated, dubious, or misleading. Some others aren’t very informative. If adequate sources don’t exist, material should be deleted. However, to do so aggravates a problem that already exists. The most reliable sources in this area (and Marketing too) are about the involvement of the tobacco industry because the efforts of some prohibitionists to emphasise it and the publicity campaigns of the companies are more likely to be reported in mainstream sources. Currently the role of the many small operations is downplayed in the article. Big tobacco sells mostly first generation devices, and there’s no mention of manufacturers of later generation devices. A reader could get the impression that tobacco companies dominate the market. It’s unclear, or perhaps doubtful, that this is the case. Unfortunately, I don’t have any suggestions for improvement. P Walford (talk) 15:04, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, the financial media are well set up to report on large quoted companies selling to mainstream retailers, but very poorly set up to report on a bunch of rather tiny private businesses selling through the internet, small one-off specialist retailers and corner shops (UK term). Until it was removed this week (see a couple of sections back) our article did indeed flat-out say that "tobacco companies dominate the market". As I say there, I suspect nobody really knows whether this is the case in the US, where big baccy has placed the front line of its attempt to take over the sector - I think it is clear enough that it is not in the UK and Europe. Cigalikes can be treated as a cigarette-like product in terms of marketing and distribution, and use big baccy's existing skills, but later generation devices, with a one-off sale of kit followed by regular sales of e-juice that can come from any manufacturer, are very different. Maybe the car companies should have a go? Johnbod (talk) 15:35, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
- The independents are an interesting phenomenon but likely, I think, to be short-lived given the spending power of the larger players who are setting up massive temples to vaping in the major retail malls. Guy (Help!) 22:47, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
- in the US, you mean. But even there, I rather doubt that. Most vapers quickly move on from cigalikes to tanks, which is a market big baccy has shown little ability to penetrate (see above). Many if not most vapers have a strong loathing for the tobacco companies, who have a huge negative brand load to carry. No doubt the more successful independent tank players will eventually sell out, but they can probably count on their eventual sale price continuing to rise sharply for some years. Johnbod (talk) 23:43, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
- Some of this dialogue could be useful to the Vape Shop ARTICLE. Vape shops could parallel many industries, which are not in the Big Tobacco paradigm, such as independent hamburger joints, vs MacDonald's.....or MicroBrewry vs Budweiser Mystery Wolff (talk) 00:31, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
- I don't live in the US. The nearest vape-temple is at The Oracle, Reading. Guy (Help!) 00:43, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
- If you're talking about the VIP store it's hardly a threat to the independents. The best e-cig VIP sell is a rebranded iStick 30. They're aiming squarely at beginners.--DaleCurrie (talk) 03:33, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
- While checking sources used in the Economics section, I didn’t see a mention of anything resembling a “vape-temple”. So I looked for information about the one at The Oracle. It was opened last April, the fourth “blending boutique” VIP opened. Apparently they have plans to open them across the UK. As of October 27, there were ten of them. Most VIP retail outlets (between 100 and 200 of them) are small kiosks, like the one in the picture recently added to the Marketing section. It looks like the company intends to upgrade many of them to proper shops. The shop at The Oracle doesn’t look like a temple in pictures, but maybe the effect is different if when seeing it in person? Both VIP and their US-based parent company, Electronic Cigarettes International Group, say they’re independent. I’ve seen no evidence that they’re a big tobacco brand.
- If you're talking about the VIP store it's hardly a threat to the independents. The best e-cig VIP sell is a rebranded iStick 30. They're aiming squarely at beginners.--DaleCurrie (talk) 03:33, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
- in the US, you mean. But even there, I rather doubt that. Most vapers quickly move on from cigalikes to tanks, which is a market big baccy has shown little ability to penetrate (see above). Many if not most vapers have a strong loathing for the tobacco companies, who have a huge negative brand load to carry. No doubt the more successful independent tank players will eventually sell out, but they can probably count on their eventual sale price continuing to rise sharply for some years. Johnbod (talk) 23:43, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
- The independents are an interesting phenomenon but likely, I think, to be short-lived given the spending power of the larger players who are setting up massive temples to vaping in the major retail malls. Guy (Help!) 22:47, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
- Re the Economics section: “and they are the major producers” should be removed. “A 2015 review said there are more than a hundred small e-cigarette businesses in the US, with about 70% of the market held by 10 businesses” should be removed. There’s enough evidence in reliable sources to show that these statements are inaccurate, and the sourcing standards used by Schraufnagel and Orellana-Barrios et al appear to be less rigorous than Wikipedia’s.
- There’s more economics content in the History section. The last two paragraphs and the table in History should be moved to Economics, and the first two sentences of the second paragraph of Economics, “Tobacco manufacturers dismissed e-cigarettes as a fad at first; but the purchase of the US brand blu eCigs by US tobacco manufacturer Lorillard for $135 million in April 2012 signaled their entry into the market. "Big tobacco" companies have bought some e-cigarette businesses and greatly increased their marketing efforts”, should be moved (consigned?) to History. P Walford (talk) 14:33, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
- The economics figures are quite frankly completely useless. The reason for this is that most of the market isn't monitored - and that goes for the US as well. The independent market is not only an interesting phenomenon, they are quite likely the majority of the market (and growing) - see this[15]. On top of that, figures for sales outside the US is almost impossible to get at, since no one is tracking them there.. --Kim D. Petersen 00:47, 20 December 2015 (UTC) [nb: not stating that the link is useful, i simply searched for Bonnie Herzog, who is (iirc) considered the go-to person for e-cigarette market analysis in the US - at least if you look at summaries of speeches from e-cig vendor conferences. But it does tell us something about the problems in analysing the market. --Kim D. Petersen 00:50, 20 December 2015 (UTC)]
- At ECigIntelligence we have research-based estimates for the size of most major markets outside the U.S. - if any editor would like a particular one for the article please let me know. Also a great deal of data backing up the trend mentioned above, for the shift away from tobacco-company products in mainstream retail to specialist companies' products in vape stores - however, as mentioned, since nobody with the heft and reach of Nielsen tracks both those channels, the data is strongly suggestive rather than utterly conclusive - nobody is quite comparing apples with apples. Barnabypage (talk) 08:24, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
- So, you have a dog in the fight. Funny how often that leads to supporting one extreme or another. Guy (Help!) 01:46, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
- Not quite sure what you mean by that, but to clarify, I have no interest at all in the figures showing one thing or another. I'm just interest*ed* in knowing *what* they show! In any case, I think the picture is quite complex: there may be a trend toward vape stores and later-generation models but I certainly wouldn't say the Big Tobacco cigalike is dead, far from it. Barnabypage (talk) 23:31, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
- Barnabypage, thank you. I presume you are saying that articles would be taken out from any paywalls, because linking to them as Cites I believe would require that. Much of the information about the industry economics is characterized by C-Store resources and Stock Analysts for the greater market share companies. However it leave a real gap because most items in Vape Shops do not have UPC codes, making them very hard to quantify. For items like Cigalikes many do have UPC codes, so while items like slowing growth is a consideration, I believe the numbers will show the overall size remains and is growing. Trying to quantify and characterize the refillable market here will likely be Original Research, either by declaration or by having two statistic put together to imply a correlation. If there were articles that aggregated public sourced information, I think it would be a great resource to improve this article. Thanks Mystery Wolff (talk) 13:25, 25 December 2015 (UTC)
- Mystery Wolff, if there is specific data any editor wants to take a look at in connection with the Wikipedia article, I can temporarily liberate it from the paywall or provide it in some other form. Barnabypage (talk) 16:24, 1 January 2016 (UTC)
- Just a small comment: There is no problem in citing paywalled content, as long as that content lives up to WP:RS (and of course WP:WEIGHT). --Kim D. Petersen 17:42, 25 December 2015 (UTC)--Kim D. Petersen 17:42, 25 December 2015 (UTC)
- If it's behind a paywall, how can other editors look at it and confirm that information is well cited? Mystery Wolff (talk) 11:27, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
- Its a problem, but its allowed WP:PAYWALL. That link is on WP:VER a core WP policy, it cant be overcome or ignored. AlbinoFerret 13:52, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
- What part is a problem, and what are you trying convey by "That link is on WP:VER"? Mystery Wolff (talk) 09:34, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
- Its a problem, but its allowed WP:PAYWALL. That link is on WP:VER a core WP policy, it cant be overcome or ignored. AlbinoFerret 13:52, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
- If it's behind a paywall, how can other editors look at it and confirm that information is well cited? Mystery Wolff (talk) 11:27, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
- So, you have a dog in the fight. Funny how often that leads to supporting one extreme or another. Guy (Help!) 01:46, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
- At ECigIntelligence we have research-based estimates for the size of most major markets outside the U.S. - if any editor would like a particular one for the article please let me know. Also a great deal of data backing up the trend mentioned above, for the shift away from tobacco-company products in mainstream retail to specialist companies' products in vape stores - however, as mentioned, since nobody with the heft and reach of Nielsen tracks both those channels, the data is strongly suggestive rather than utterly conclusive - nobody is quite comparing apples with apples. Barnabypage (talk) 08:24, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
@Mystery Wolff WP:PAYWALL is a link to a section inside of the page WP:VER. AlbinoFerret 16:48, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
- Kim I agree with your comment, I was confused when it was said it "was a problem". There are procedures including https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Resource_Exchange/Resource_Request, so the path of least resistance would be to have the articles in question to be moved out to a non-paywalled section of the site, by request, when possible. There is also the article on Vape Shops which could get more Economic information for the article.....but all of this is really shallow water because so little information is be pulled from a disorganized new industry, as it is just forming. Mystery Wolff (talk) 03:54, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
- Mystery Wolff—Doing that without permission would be illegal, and I find it highly unlikely that we could convince major publishers to release content that is behind a paywall. CFCF 💌 📧 12:26, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
- CFCF, I am sure you misread what I was saying. I was talking about this process described here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Resource_Exchange/Resource_Request And that sites commonly have sections which are both paywall and non-paywall, and that by request and agreement that could occur. My preference is always going to be to use resources and cites that anyone can open up. Many of the PubMed articles are only available in abstract form until the full paper is put out in the non-pay areas. Mystery Wolff (talk) 06:38, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
- No, but you misunderstand the world of academic publishing. Only a very small minority of journals operate in that manner, most never release their content without a subscription. Getting releases of individual papers is really not feasible, with authors themselves not being able to do that once a license is already enacted. We here at Wikipedia use the best possible sources, regardless of their copyright status, otherwise we may end up misinterpreting the field or only showing a limited picture. CFCF 💌 📧 15:27, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
- CFCF, I am sure you misread what I was saying. I was talking about this process described here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Resource_Exchange/Resource_Request And that sites commonly have sections which are both paywall and non-paywall, and that by request and agreement that could occur. My preference is always going to be to use resources and cites that anyone can open up. Many of the PubMed articles are only available in abstract form until the full paper is put out in the non-pay areas. Mystery Wolff (talk) 06:38, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
- Mystery Wolff—Doing that without permission would be illegal, and I find it highly unlikely that we could convince major publishers to release content that is behind a paywall. CFCF 💌 📧 12:26, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
The cigalike problem again
Again we have the cigalike problem. The economics section is almost completely about the sale of cigalikes and some of the claims make it sound like its about the market as a whole. I propose creating subsections dealing with the ciaglike market, and then one (or more if needed) on the rest of the market. Thoughts? AlbinoFerret 04:10, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
- Probably best, if decent info on 2nd+ gen stuff can be found. Johnbod (talk) 16:28, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
- There probably isnt much if any, but at least a cigalike section so readers know thats whats being discussed. AlbinoFerret 18:58, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
- I split them up, one for Cigalikes and the other for other devices. but we have a similar issue in the Marketing section. It appears to be all cigalike information. AlbinoFerret 16:44, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
- AlbinoFerret, I do think you should have read the feedback above, before splitting out a section. You don't have any data to support the Cigalike proposition you now split out. It is in fact Original Research at this point. As mentioned above, Vape Shops are not selling items with UPC codes, so their sales are harder to recognize. The refillable market includes Cigalikes, and it includes EGO refillables, which are also regarded as Cigalikes by some. You are trying to add a level of detail with which you don't have any supporting data. I am going to go ahead and remove the delineation of Cigalikes until are able to present some sort of sourced information. As it stands they way you have changed it, you are having a bunch of blended data that characterizes the entire market, being placed under "Cigalike" and that is not useful to the reader. Items VTM includes Cigalike as well. If the breakout is proper here, it would then stand to reason you would want an entire Article just on Cigalikes, and I don't believe you are proposing that? Mystery Wolff (talk) 03:17, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
- The breakout is appropriate and your whole comment is WP:OR. Provide a source that says ego's are cigalikes. I selected manufacturers of cigalikes for the cigalike section, looking at each of the claims. Its organization, do you think every claim in Safety uses the word Safety? Do all of them use economics in that section?. Yes, thats the whole point of the cigalike problem, the whole article is mostly a cigalike problem and should be changed. The correct thing to do, is if you think something doesnt belong in one section is to move it, not revert the whole thing. AlbinoFerret 14:23, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
- So thats 2 editors in favor on the talk page, SPACKlick edited and changed them back. Seems consensus is against you Mystery Wolff. AlbinoFerret 01:00, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
- The sockpuppet editor who wrote in support and reverted, has been banned. I read Johnbod remarks as, he'll consider the change, IF (and that was an IF) 2nd Generation data and citations would support the breakout. Which then AlbinoFerret said there would not be any cites for that. Johnbod can certainly speak for himself, its how I read it.
- All versions of Electronic Cigarettes are currently being sold and used, this article is covering all of them as currently being written. If AlbinoFerret is proposing to split the article, I will certainly want to read that. Regarding continuance of polling here, please see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:POLL and please see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Consensus Thank you. Mystery Wolff (talk) 06:30, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, all generations are being sold but not every source uses data from every generation and not every company sells devices of every generation. A lot of existing research was conducted only on cigalikes which from later research on 2nd gen devices show a different effectiveness and profile of use and user. It is right to split them out where the sources are clear on which were used. I haven't double checked all the sources in Albino's change but if you find one which is referring to e-cigs in general in the igalike section feel free to fix it. SPACKlick (talk) 09:47, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
- AlbinoFerret, I do think you should have read the feedback above, before splitting out a section. You don't have any data to support the Cigalike proposition you now split out. It is in fact Original Research at this point. As mentioned above, Vape Shops are not selling items with UPC codes, so their sales are harder to recognize. The refillable market includes Cigalikes, and it includes EGO refillables, which are also regarded as Cigalikes by some. You are trying to add a level of detail with which you don't have any supporting data. I am going to go ahead and remove the delineation of Cigalikes until are able to present some sort of sourced information. As it stands they way you have changed it, you are having a bunch of blended data that characterizes the entire market, being placed under "Cigalike" and that is not useful to the reader. Items VTM includes Cigalike as well. If the breakout is proper here, it would then stand to reason you would want an entire Article just on Cigalikes, and I don't believe you are proposing that? Mystery Wolff (talk) 03:17, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
- I split them up, one for Cigalikes and the other for other devices. but we have a similar issue in the Marketing section. It appears to be all cigalike information. AlbinoFerret 16:44, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
- There probably isnt much if any, but at least a cigalike section so readers know thats whats being discussed. AlbinoFerret 18:58, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
- Probably best, if decent info on 2nd+ gen stuff can be found. Johnbod (talk) 16:28, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
Eyes are needed on Electronic cigarette aerosol and e-liquid
Would editors please take a look at the article. AlbinoFerret 12:50, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
- Can you be more specific? Mystery Wolff (talk) 23:48, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
- No. This was a request that more editors look at the page. AlbinoFerret 23:49, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
- Perhaps start a formal request for comment RFC. Right now, I see you are multiple reverting of edits I put in days ago. Canvassing will not be as effective as asking using the various WP processes in place. What specifically do you want to be looked at? If you are unwilling to begin a RFC (or other method of DS), let me know because I believe it will be in order. I am not comfortable with those reverts, in favor of retaining POV with poorly sourced and outdated materials. That combined with removal of multiple edits. There was a reason why I did each edit individually. I explained each one, and they were removed in a block without explanations of weight. Mystery Wolff (talk) 01:03, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
- Asking for eyes on a sub article on the main articles page with a neutral post is not canvassing. All the editors on this page are already involved in the topic, and I did not selectively pick out editors who may share my views, but asked everyone. AlbinoFerret 02:05, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
- Perhaps start a formal request for comment RFC. Right now, I see you are multiple reverting of edits I put in days ago. Canvassing will not be as effective as asking using the various WP processes in place. What specifically do you want to be looked at? If you are unwilling to begin a RFC (or other method of DS), let me know because I believe it will be in order. I am not comfortable with those reverts, in favor of retaining POV with poorly sourced and outdated materials. That combined with removal of multiple edits. There was a reason why I did each edit individually. I explained each one, and they were removed in a block without explanations of weight. Mystery Wolff (talk) 01:03, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
- No. This was a request that more editors look at the page. AlbinoFerret 23:49, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
First paragraph of the lede
In the recent past the construction page had a cleanup and c/e. Since the first paragraph of the lede is based on construction I propose this version with a better function description for the first paragraph of the lede.
- An electronic cigarette[Notes 1] is a battery-powered vaporizer.[1] The primary parts that make up an e-cigarette are a mouthpiece, a cartridge (tank), a heating element/atomizer, a microprocessor, a battery, and possibly a LED light on the end.[2] An atomizer comprises a small heating element that vaporizes e-liquid and wicking material that draws liquid onto the coil.[3] When the user pushes a button.[4] or inhales a pressure sensor activates the heating element that atomizes the liquid solution;[5] The e-liquid reaches a temperature of roughly 100-250 °C within a chamber to create an aerosolized vapor.[6] The user inhales the aerosol, commonly called vapor, rather than cigarette smoke.[7] The aerosol provides a flavor and feel similar to tobacco smoking, but without tobacco.[1] Their use is commonly called "vaping".[4] The three main types of e-cigarettes are cigalikes, eGos, and MODs.[8] These devices are also categorized as first, second, third, and fourth generation devices.[9][10][11] Most are reusable but there are disposable versions of first generation devices also called cigalikes.[12] E-liquids usually contain propylene glycol, glycerin, nicotine, and flavorings.[13][14][15][16]
The wording, claims, and references are already in the article. The full version with references can be found in this sandbox.User:AlbinoFerret/sandbox/ecig AlbinoFerret 22:42, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
- This is not an improvement—not until sentence 7 does it actually explain the purpose—something that is in the current first sentence. CFCF 💌 📧 11:29, 2 January 2016 (UTC)
- What it does , is shows how it works. Which is drastically missing in the lede. AlbinoFerret 13:26, 2 January 2016 (UTC)