JohnValeron (talk | contribs) →More edit warring over Snowden being stuck/stranded: petrarchan47 has zero credibility |
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:No, you don't get to just state that. I have left lists of RS saying exactly what we claim in the Lede - even Dr F has told you that you have no case as you are arguing against stacks of articles using the very language we do. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">[[User:Petrarchan47|<font color="#BABACF">petrarchan47</font>]][[User talk:Petrarchan47|<font color="deeppink">t</font>]][[Special:Contributions/Petrarchan47|<font color="orangered">c</font>]]</span>''' 20:32, 8 April 2014 (UTC) |
:No, you don't get to just state that. I have left lists of RS saying exactly what we claim in the Lede - even Dr F has told you that you have no case as you are arguing against stacks of articles using the very language we do. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">[[User:Petrarchan47|<font color="#BABACF">petrarchan47</font>]][[User talk:Petrarchan47|<font color="deeppink">t</font>]][[Special:Contributions/Petrarchan47|<font color="orangered">c</font>]]</span>''' 20:32, 8 April 2014 (UTC) |
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::Yes, I do get to point out everything you are ignoring in order to push your bogus narrative. You still have yet to respond.--[[User:Bdell555|Brian Dell]] ([[User talk:Bdell555|talk]]) 20:42, 8 April 2014 (UTC) |
::Yes, I do get to point out everything you are ignoring in order to push your bogus narrative. You still have yet to respond.--[[User:Bdell555|Brian Dell]] ([[User talk:Bdell555|talk]]) 20:42, 8 April 2014 (UTC) |
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petrarchan47, in your edit summary at 19:25, 8 April 2014, you contend: "RS does not doubt the story we tell in Lede." Yet my edit cited an AP article that does indeed cast doubt on your partisan account. Moreover, for you to proclaim that the Associated Press is not a reliable source is preposterous—on a par with your earlier Talk absurdity: "We go with RS EVEN if/when they have it wrong…" As far as I am concerned, you have zero credibility as a Wikipedia editor, and I shall henceforth independently confirm and where appropriate challenge whatever you contribute to this article. [[User:JohnValeron|JohnValeron]] ([[User talk:JohnValeron|talk]]) 22:02, 8 April 2014 (UTC) |
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Snowden quote re Glasgow rectorship
Statements made by Snowden after receiving the Glasgow rector position are being removed for reasons that have no basis in policy. petrarchan47tc 21:36, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
- My edit summary was: " rm non-notable, non-neutral self-serving statement by subject of article made in response to award of rectorship". I'm not sure how you get WP:IDONTLIKEIT out of that. Elaborating on my summary, the most relevant policies are WP:NPV and WP:SOAPBOX. Regarding neutrality, the specific portions the policy that I believe are implicated are WP:UNDUE, WP:BALASPS, and WP:IMPARTIAL. I also believe WP:QUOTEFARM is relevant. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 21:50, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
- Doc is entirely correct here. The removals are, in fact, well justified by WP:WEIGHT, WP:SOAP, other policies Doc cites, and more generally the fluffy, self-aggrandizing nature of the remarks removed. This is an encyclopaedia, not a soap box. Why isn't the New York Times or something analogous calling attention to the remarks if they are noteworthy?--Brian Dell (talk) 21:53, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
- Because it's only about 5 hours ago we got the result, let's see how the papers report it tomorrow. PatGallacher (talk) 22:04, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
- Doc is entirely correct here. The removals are, in fact, well justified by WP:WEIGHT, WP:SOAP, other policies Doc cites, and more generally the fluffy, self-aggrandizing nature of the remarks removed. This is an encyclopaedia, not a soap box. Why isn't the New York Times or something analogous calling attention to the remarks if they are noteworthy?--Brian Dell (talk) 21:53, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
Also it's highly US-centric to regard what papers like the New York Times have to say about an event in Britain as important. There has already been a significant amount of coverage of Snowden's election from media sources and other bodies in Britain. PatGallacher (talk) 01:41, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
- Although US-based, AP carries international stories, has noted the vote, and not found it appropriate to include the extended Snowden quote you would like included. By the way, Wikipedia is not a newspaper. This material is tendentious and unencyclopaedic. What additional notable information about Snowden does it provide to the reader?--Brian Dell (talk) 01:44, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
Comment: Perhaps it would be better to paraphrase and merge the quote to keep it brief and concise. Having said that, I don't think there's anything wrong with adding the subject's reaction to a notable appointment and I'm strongly against its removal. -A1candidate (talk) 01:59, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
- What is so notable about it that we need an acceptance speech? Has Snowden been elected Wikipedia's valedictorian such that we are all supposed to stand to attention here? The burden of proof is on the party wishing to add the material. Please reply to the question I asked above, namely, what additional notable information about Snowden does it provide to the reader? We are here to inform readers, not extend a platform for POV speeches.--Brian Dell (talk) 02:17, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
- I agree with Brian here. Our coverage of an award given to the article subject isn't a platform to quote the subject's political views ad nauseum. Compare to, say, James Clapper. He has received many awards, but you don't see us block quoting his acceptance speeches. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 02:51, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
Bdell555, A1candidate, and Petrarchan47: How about we stop reverting for now, stay civil, and follow PatGallacher's advice? This edit war is really unnecessary and only interferes with the consensus-building process. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 05:43, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
- I have stopped reverting. Has that solved the content problem? Allowing yourself to be bullied here Doc just encourages more bullying. The bullies must be resisted until they provide an argument on this Talk page justifying their behaviour ("I'm strongly against its removal" is an opinion, not an argument) and references to Wikipedia policy. Opinion is still close to evenly divided, which means the version of the article prior to this contentious new material being added should be retained as per WP:NOCONSENSUS (that policy adds that one should be especially inclined towards exclusion when the article is a BLP). Petrarchan47 has accused you of removing this material without any policy reason, but in fact the only editors who have cited any policy here is you and I. Pat said "let's see how the papers report it tomorrow," tomorrow came and went, and there was no more notable reporting on this, never mind extended quoting of Snowden's acceptance speech. Snowden has since given a new speech on another matter. Are we going to extensively quote that as well? I think all parties here have to admit that adding a paragraph from every speech Snowden gives would eventually be too much. A line must eventually be drawn, no? When the line is drawn, what would be the argument for drawing the line? Would it not look a lot like the argument advanced by Doc here? What is the point of an encyclopaedia? To provide facts to readers or to quote speeches? I have asked how including this informs readers and have yet to receive an answer. One could argue that it informs the reader that he or she should "...contest the violation of the fundamental right of free people to be left unmolested..." but the obvious problem here is that 1) Snowden's claims are not being fact checked here and 2) who seriously disagrees with the claim that people should not be "molested" and 3) how does this add to the reader's knowledge of Snowden? Is there even any proof that this speech was not written by someone else and simply delivered by Snowden?--Brian Dell (talk) 15:47, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
- You have to determine whether the media are accepting the material as valid, or presenting it to their readers as questionable. In this case, they are portraying the rectorship as valid: The Guardian, US News, BBC, Telegraph. If major media are interested in this aspect then so are the readers of Wikipedia. Binksternet (talk) 16:11, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
- Who is saying this rectorship is not "valid"? The issue here is the "unmolested" speechifying, a word that, just to take an example, appears only in the The Guardian, the World Socialist Web Site, and local Scottish papers as far as I can tell. On top of this is the fact that Wikipedia is fundamentally different from newspapers in that newspapers devote whole stories to the news of the day. If this appeared in a media article that had as its topic "Who is Edward Snowden?" the argument for inclusion would be far greater. Is the bar for including text from a speech by Obama in Barack Obama so low that all that is needed is a media source for the quote and whether the media considers Obama's Presidency "valid"? I think not. So why the inclusion here? If readers want to be preached to by the subject they can exercise their desire for that elsewhere. The presumption here is that readers instead are looking for information about the article subject. I'll add that the "Recognition" section of this bio already rivals Nelson Mandela's in length, someone's whose recognition is extensive enough to have warranted its own spin out article, and not once even in that spinout article dedicated to recognition of Mandela is Mandela's reaction given. This suggests that other members of the Wikipedia community do not consider the need to include a response obvious.--Brian Dell (talk) 16:52, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
- I'm just seeing a wordy version of "I don't like it" in the preceding argument. I hold that coverage by multiple media outlets will have more bearing on what we put in the biography than a single editor's distaste for the material. Binksternet (talk) 21:01, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
- I'm seeing a refusal to engage here on this Talk page. Doc referred to WP:NPV, WP:SOAPBOX, WP:UNDUE, WP:BALASPS, WP:IMPARTIAL, and WP:QUOTEFARM. Here, you pretend he doesn't exist. I have asked you to articulate a rationale for inclusion that does not lead to absurd results like including a paragraph from every speech by an article subject that gets the coverage of the level this "unmolested" language got, and you've refused to do so. I've noted that rest of the Wikipedia community has not seen fit to routinely add acceptance speeches to biographies, particularly tendentious speeches of this sort. One last time, how does including this provide new facts about Snowden? Or is informing readers about article subjects not what we are here for? Note, again, that it took just hours for this material to have been rendered obsolete as far as the papers are concerned as they are now reporting on a new Snowden speech.--Brian Dell (talk) 21:25, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
- I agree wholeheartedly with Brian in this case. This is an excellent example of WP:IDHT. We must be able to engage in our fellow editors' arguments if we are to edit productively on contentious subjects. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 21:32, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
- The speechifying by Snowden shows his thoughts. The thoughts are aimed at the 20,000 Glasgow students. The reader is thereby informed about Snowden's vision for them. We are not talking about the usual "I would like to thank God, my parents, etc." kind of throwaway acceptance speech. Binksternet (talk) 22:08, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
- There's nothing in the quoted passage about the Glasgow students. This is simply Snowden sharing some of his views on mass surveillance. That is perfectly acceptable except that it's highly redundant (and thus non-neutral) and belongs in a section on his views. The speech could be quoted a million times by the news media and it still wouldn't belong here; notability does not equal neutrality. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 22:12, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
- This speech extract as no connection to Glasgow.--Brian Dell (talk) 01:10, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
- The speechifying by Snowden shows his thoughts. The thoughts are aimed at the 20,000 Glasgow students. The reader is thereby informed about Snowden's vision for them. We are not talking about the usual "I would like to thank God, my parents, etc." kind of throwaway acceptance speech. Binksternet (talk) 22:08, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
- I agree wholeheartedly with Brian in this case. This is an excellent example of WP:IDHT. We must be able to engage in our fellow editors' arguments if we are to edit productively on contentious subjects. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 21:32, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
- I'm seeing a refusal to engage here on this Talk page. Doc referred to WP:NPV, WP:SOAPBOX, WP:UNDUE, WP:BALASPS, WP:IMPARTIAL, and WP:QUOTEFARM. Here, you pretend he doesn't exist. I have asked you to articulate a rationale for inclusion that does not lead to absurd results like including a paragraph from every speech by an article subject that gets the coverage of the level this "unmolested" language got, and you've refused to do so. I've noted that rest of the Wikipedia community has not seen fit to routinely add acceptance speeches to biographies, particularly tendentious speeches of this sort. One last time, how does including this provide new facts about Snowden? Or is informing readers about article subjects not what we are here for? Note, again, that it took just hours for this material to have been rendered obsolete as far as the papers are concerned as they are now reporting on a new Snowden speech.--Brian Dell (talk) 21:25, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
- I'm just seeing a wordy version of "I don't like it" in the preceding argument. I hold that coverage by multiple media outlets will have more bearing on what we put in the biography than a single editor's distaste for the material. Binksternet (talk) 21:01, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
- Who is saying this rectorship is not "valid"? The issue here is the "unmolested" speechifying, a word that, just to take an example, appears only in the The Guardian, the World Socialist Web Site, and local Scottish papers as far as I can tell. On top of this is the fact that Wikipedia is fundamentally different from newspapers in that newspapers devote whole stories to the news of the day. If this appeared in a media article that had as its topic "Who is Edward Snowden?" the argument for inclusion would be far greater. Is the bar for including text from a speech by Obama in Barack Obama so low that all that is needed is a media source for the quote and whether the media considers Obama's Presidency "valid"? I think not. So why the inclusion here? If readers want to be preached to by the subject they can exercise their desire for that elsewhere. The presumption here is that readers instead are looking for information about the article subject. I'll add that the "Recognition" section of this bio already rivals Nelson Mandela's in length, someone's whose recognition is extensive enough to have warranted its own spin out article, and not once even in that spinout article dedicated to recognition of Mandela is Mandela's reaction given. This suggests that other members of the Wikipedia community do not consider the need to include a response obvious.--Brian Dell (talk) 16:52, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
- You have to determine whether the media are accepting the material as valid, or presenting it to their readers as questionable. In this case, they are portraying the rectorship as valid: The Guardian, US News, BBC, Telegraph. If major media are interested in this aspect then so are the readers of Wikipedia. Binksternet (talk) 16:11, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
This article is about Edward Snowden. It is absolutely appropriate to mention and describe his views in detail, and we do not judge such content based on notability, but on its encyclopedic value. =A1candidate (talk) 01:00, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
- The only connection this material has to Edward Snowden is that he said them. If that's all it takes for inclusion why don't we try to include Snowden's views on boxers versus briefs as well? Because 1) Snowden's views here have nothing to do with the topic of this article, Edward Snowden and 2) what Doc just said above.--Brian Dell (talk) 01:10, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
- I have trouble seeing how you hope to involve yourself in this topic if you think Snowden's views have nothing to with his biography on Wikipedia. Binksternet (talk) 01:23, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
- I have trouble seeing how you missed the "here" following "Snowden's views" and how you missed point (2) which would have referred you to Doc's observations that Snowden's views can be appropriate for inclusion in other places and circumstances. What we have HERE is basically a Commencement speech.--Brian Dell (talk) 01:27, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
- I have trouble seeing how you hope to involve yourself in this topic if you think Snowden's views have nothing to with his biography on Wikipedia. Binksternet (talk) 01:23, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
- A1, of course Snowden's views are appropriate for his article. The question is, is it neutral to scatter them all throughout the article, over and over again, with block quotes, particularly when multiple quotes are in essence saying the same thing? We should have one consolidated section on Snowden's political views in which we choose the most notable views, punctuated by the sharpest quotes. Beyond that, quotes should be limited to those specifically about the subject matter (e.g. the Glasgow rectorship). Anything more than that is soapboxing, intended or not. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 04:46, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
- No comment in a week. Does anyone object to a consolidation of these types of political statements into the appropriate sections ("Political views" and/or "motivations")? --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 18:37, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
Last line of the introduction: 'snowden currently serves as rector'. Snowden is not currently Rector. He has not yet been installed. Installation is not until April. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.209.99.71 (talk) 13:53, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
Also in the section about his rectorship there is a quote: 'the position is largely symbolic'. This is not the case. The reference is from a US news website article and contains other errors. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.209.99.71 (talk) 13:59, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks for the input. Do you have any reliable sources (e.g. news reports) indicating that Snowden's appointment is other than largely symbolic? --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 19:07, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
- Please see the Article, where I have restored "symbolic" and added four citations to reliable sources documenting said description. JohnValeron (talk) 21:04, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
Citation for Live Q&A
The titel in the citation for the Live Q&A has an error but I can't edit the article. Can anyone fix it? I also archived the link. The new citation would be:
here
Retelling of the passport story
If after my complaining about this very thing brings about a major change to the Lede hours later, it's hard to argue that games are not being played here, whether it's about content control, perception of Snowden guilt/US government innocence, OR about keeping editors here scurrying around endlessly until they leave out of frustration. I've re-added the RS based passport story to the Lede. BDell's proposed changes need to be discussed here first. petrarchan47tc 17:55, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
- I saw a good summary of the Hong Kong passport controversy in Wired magazine: "The Leaker, the Passport & Pizza Dinner: How & Why Hong Kong Let Snowden Go", June 24, 2013. Dashiell Bennett says that China looked the other way and allowed Snowden to leave because they did not want the headache. I find the explanation very plausible. Binksternet (talk) 18:07, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
- As do I. But that would absolve the U.S. government of blame for "stranding" Snowden in Russia because it suggests that if the U.S. government wanted Snowden stranded anywhere, they wanted him stranded in Hong Kong, not Moscow. It also suggests that if a government wants to let Snowden move on, they can do so if they really want to regardless of the actions of the U.S. State Department. More than a month ago I linked to a WaPo story here on this Talk page and asked "Does anyone really disagree that the Chinese made a political decision to let, or tell, Snowden go?" Petrarchan's response to my paragraph was: "TL:DR". This was in the thread titled "Passport" that is now archived. Petrarchan opened that thread by presenting her research on what sources said about the passport. So this has already been gone over, or could have been had Petrarchan continued to participate.--Brian Dell (talk) 19:24, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
- We are in agreement that China quietly made a political decision to let Snowden fly out of Hong Kong, however, I don't see the sources saying the U.S. would like to have him stranded anywhere, let alone Hong Kong. Rather, the U.S. is portrayed as wanting very badly to get Snowden back into the U.S.
- Yes, the Wired story suggests that Snowden is able to continue his travels despite the U.S. State Department's strong wish otherwise. The Wired story says all Snowden needs is a passport from another country, or even just an entry visa, for instance to Ecuador where he said he was headed anyway. Of course this other country would have to bear the brunt of U.S. anger. Binksternet (talk) 19:41, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
- As do I. But that would absolve the U.S. government of blame for "stranding" Snowden in Russia because it suggests that if the U.S. government wanted Snowden stranded anywhere, they wanted him stranded in Hong Kong, not Moscow. It also suggests that if a government wants to let Snowden move on, they can do so if they really want to regardless of the actions of the U.S. State Department. More than a month ago I linked to a WaPo story here on this Talk page and asked "Does anyone really disagree that the Chinese made a political decision to let, or tell, Snowden go?" Petrarchan's response to my paragraph was: "TL:DR". This was in the thread titled "Passport" that is now archived. Petrarchan opened that thread by presenting her research on what sources said about the passport. So this has already been gone over, or could have been had Petrarchan continued to participate.--Brian Dell (talk) 19:24, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
This could continue forever. Here are links to past discussions where BDell555 has made his case with regard to Russia. I highly advise people review these (given the fact that NPOV is a requirement for editors here).
Let's decide on the talk page first if aspects of this story are to be changed again in the article - we have been edit-warring over this for literally months, Dell. I am not concerned with how the story is told as long as it's not OR/SYNTH written by a confessed whistleblower-hater, and is clearly written up in RS. Is this not common sense? petrarchan47tc 19:43, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
- @Binksternet apparently wishes to deny me a reply here but I am adding it back here: Let's discuss content (as opposed to an imaginary "whistleblower"-suppression agenda). This morning you reverted me to have the article declare "US officials revoked his passport upon his arrival in Russia..." That's simply not true according to the Wired story that Binksternet apparently considers a reliable source, since that story clearly accepts as fact that Snowden's passport was revoked on "Saturday" (June 22) and you've never disputed the fact Snowden did not leave Hong Kong until Sunday, June 23. Snowden's passport was not revoked "upon his arrival" in Russia, it was revoked earlier.--Brian Dell (talk) 20:49, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
- Sorry about deleting your earlier comment; I got no edit conflict message at this addition of mine which apparently removed your post.
- It does not really matter the exact time the passport was cancelled, since Hong Kong allowed him to leave. I'm sure we can all agree that Snowden found he could not move out of Moscow's airport after he discovered his passport was not valid. The question of whether it was thought to be valid at his departure from Hong Kong is still debated. Per Wired, I bet Snowden knew that the document was going to be invalidated very soon, which is why he left Hong Kong. Binksternet (talk) 20:56, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
- If you didn't have a history of elsewhere removing my comments, and Doc's as well, I would have just assumed some sort of accident.
It does matter when the passport was cancelled because, according to you, Snowden cannot travel if his passport is "not valid." If he left Hong Kong in spite of a revoked passport, it contradicts your assertion that he cannot leave Russia for this reason. Sheremetyevo also has sterile transit meaning there would have been no need for Snowden to go through passport control should he have desired to board that onward flight to Cuba. There were also journalists boarding that flight to Cuba who would have seen Snowden trying to board that flight had he wanted to board it. There was no obstacle to Snowden moving on to Cuba had Snowden desired it and the Kremlin allowed it. There WAS, however, a legal obstacle to remaining in the transit zone more than 24 hours and that's Russian law. As a WaPo contributor noted, Russian law says permission is required otherwise the stay is illegal. Since permission is required anyway, the Kremlin could have just as well granted permission to leave the country as opposed to permission to overstay in the transit zone. As for being "stranded" at the airport, the Associated Press cites this expert who says that "Moscow airport is as much a part of Russia as is the Kremlin."
If Snowden was just worried about his passport status why didn't he leave HK earlier? According to the BBC, Snowden had thought about leaving late on June 22, but he ultimately didn't, instead leaving close to noon on June 23. Why? Could it have been because Cathay Pacific couldn't be counted on to tell the media what the state-controlled Aeroflot would say? I bet Snowden left Hong Kong because the Chinese could no longer continue with the charade of not understanding what the U.S. wanted after the U.S. had not just advised the Chinese privately of the charges against Snowden but had made those charges public by unsealing them. In any case, the body of the article properly reports that "I was ticketed for onward travel via Havana — a planeload of reporters documented the seat I was supposed to be in — but the State Department decided they wanted me in Moscow, and cancelled my passport" because it has "According to Snowden" if front of it. If you want to claim he was "stranded" in a Moscow airport, that claim should be attributed instead of using Wikipedia's voice.--Brian Dell (talk) 22:17, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
- If you didn't have a history of elsewhere removing my comments, and Doc's as well, I would have just assumed some sort of accident.
"Stranded"
- The word "stranded" is used by dozens of sources to describe Snowden's predicament in Moscow. It is trivially easy to source it. We should, however, address your assertion that Snowden is purposely in Moscow, not "stranded".
- The first problem facing the question is the passport controversy. It's funny—Snowden was able to travel from the U.S. to Hong Kong on an invalid passport, according to The Washington Post: "Julian Assange: Edward Snowden is ‘marooned in Russia’" And our Wired author says Snowden was able to leave Hong Kong with the same invalid passport. He also says that a passport is not totally necessary for Snowden to leave Moscow, just an entry visa to another country. From his place of protection at the Ecuadorian Embassy in London, Julian Assange was able to get Snowden such an official document, issued by the Ecuadorian Embassy in London, saying Snowden should be given safe passage to Ecuador. This document was issued on June 22 so that Snowden could leave Hong Kong without a valid passport, and to help him keep traveling. However, after Snowden left Hong Kong the president of Ecuador played dumb about whether Snowden could leave Moscow, saying that Snowden's lack of a passport was stopping his progress, that the matter was now in Russian hands. (He said his country's embassy in London made a "serious error" in issuing the safe travel paper.) Another report from Reuters in Moscow ("Cuban U-turn stranded Snowden: report") quoting the major Russian newspaper Kommersant says that Cuban authorities told Moscow authorities to keep Snowden from boarding the airplane. It was previously reported in American papers that a half dozen American journalists trying to get on the Cuba-bound flight with Snowden were denied tickets because Cuban authorities did not want them to land in Cuba.
- Of course the Russian authorities could have allowed Snowden to board the airplane, much like the Hong Kong authorities allowed him to leave Hong Kong, so that they could be rid of the political hot potato. But something we don't precisely know about kept Snowden in Moscow. The main story that is published about the "something" is that Snowden's invalid passport is stopping him. I think it would be irresponsible of us to lead the reader to conclude that Snowden was purposely staying in Moscow, as that idea is only coming from a few voices at the fringe.
- Regarding the quote "Moscow airport is as much a part of Russia as is the Kremlin", the point is that quite a few cases exist demonstrating that the transit area of an airport is commonly regarded as some sort of neutral limbo area where those without a nation have been stranded, sometimes for years. The difference between theory and practice? In theory they are the same. Binksternet (talk) 23:46, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
- Bink, did you mean to say that "Snowden was able to travel from the U.S. to Hong Kong on an invalid passport"? He definately flew from HA to HK with a valid possport - no one had even known at that point what had happened.
- No, you're right, I misread the WashPo source. Binksternet (talk) 05:37, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
- Bink, did you mean to say that "Snowden was able to travel from the U.S. to Hong Kong on an invalid passport"? He definately flew from HA to HK with a valid possport - no one had even known at that point what had happened.
Assange was in charge of his travels at that time, and here is what he said: his group had arranged for Mr. Snowden to travel via a “special refugee travel document” issued by Ecuador last Monday — days before the United States announced the criminal charges against him and revoked his passport. Mr. Assange said he believed that Ecuador was still considering Mr. Snowden’s asylum application. “He left Hong Kong with that document,” Mr. Assange [said] he had raised Mr. Snowden’s case with Ecuador’s foreign minister in a meeting at the embassy last Monday. Mr. Assange said it was unclear whether Mr. Snowden’s passport was revoked before he left Hong Kong. But, he said, Mr. Snowden was informed of the revocation when he landed in Moscow. He said it was uncertain whether and where Mr. Snowden might be able to travel from Moscow using the Ecuadorean document, which he described as a “safe pass"...."Different airlines have different rules, so it’s a technical matter whether they will accept the document" NTY petrarchan47tc 00:21, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
- "issued by Ecuador last Monday [June 17]" is obviously contradicted by the fact that it has an issue date of "June 22" stamped on it.--Brian Dell (talk) 02:27, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
Let's be clear here: I am not "assert[ing] that Snowden is purposely in Moscow" and your reversion of me, Binksternet, makes that clear. My view is rather that while it is not clear just how much the "purpose" should be distributed between Snowden, the Kremlin, and Wikileaks, this isn't just an accident. Why was he in contact with Russian diplomats in Moscow before leaving Hong Kong if he hoped to just quietly transit without interference from Russian authorities (no visa is required if transiting with 24 hours)? But I am not calling for Wikipedia to give that view any heed in the lede. I am rather just disputing your conviction that Snowden was "stranded" by governments other than Russia not issuing him "travel papers" that would allow him to depart. In fact the State Department has repeatedly said they would issue Snowden whatever documents were necessary to return to the U.S. If you are going to add an explanation for his ongoing presence in Russia then that explanation ought to either be attributed or allow the text to acknowledge that the explanation has been disputed. As for what Assange had to say, it is entirely possible that Assange knew the Ecuadorean doc he arranged was iffy or even bogus from the get go. Assange's later comment, "While Venezuela and Ecuador could protect him in the short term, over the long term there could be a change in government. In Russia, he's safe, he's well-regarded, and that is not likely to change." certainly does not eliminate the possibility that Assange never really hoped to see Snowden safely on past Russia to somewhere else. But this means that Snowden ending up in Russia has more to do with Assange's connivance than with the nominal status of his documents. At issue here is not just your ruling out of any "purpose"fulness on the part of Snowden, but on the part of Wikileaks and the Kremlin as well. You want to explain it as due to anyone BUT these actors, preferring to instead point the finger at the U.S. (which revoked his passport) or other governments for failing to issue him "travel documents" he could use to travel onwards.
If you believe Snowden held an onward ticket to Cuba but was denied boarding (never mind he never showed up at the gate to even try) why was Snowden even issued a ticket if "half dozen American journalists trying to get on the Cuba-bound flight with Snowden were denied tickets"? Note that Fidel Castro says it is a "lie" and a "libel" that Cuba ever would have denied boarding for Snowden. Re those stories about people being stranded in transit zones for years, note that in those cases the countries in which the airports were located didn't want to have to deal with these people. They were not secured in some location access to which was restricted by the national authorities. If the Kremlin truly wanted to wash its hands of Snowden, why didn't authorities refuse to have anything to do with him, with the result that people could have located him and interviewed him like all those other cases of being stranded?--Brian Dell (talk) 01:20, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
- You‘re at the wrong talk page. This article is about Snowden, not Russia. -A1candidate (talk) 02:05, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
- In the above paragraph I gave the diff at issue. It doesn't get any more relevant than that. If you have nothing to say about that diff, or any other content matter, I dare say you are at the wrong Talk page. If you did take the time to consider that diff, you'd notice I am adding nothing at all about Russia, I am rather removing the finger pointing directed at OTHER governments with respect to why Snowden is in Russia, the issuer of Snowden's passport in particular.--Brian Dell (talk)
LA Times puts it pretty succinctly. Are editors OK with telling the story as it appears in RS? If no, the problem is not with the article, but with editors not adhering to the NPOV requirement. There is a lot of work that could have been done to add to and improve this article, but we have spent months here in discussions instead, all because one person wants to retell this simple story. This is highly disruptive to the Project and should NOT be allowed to continue. petrarchan47tc 00:14, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
- [Snowden] had been effectively trapped at Moscow's Sheremetyevo International Airport since June 23, when he arrived on a flight from Hong Kong. He was intending to change planes in Moscow, apparently for Latin America, but was caught in limbo when the United States canceled his passport.
- You are pretending that the implication in this quote that the passport was cancelled after arrival in Moscow was never been thrown into question by any other reporting. The LA Times is PRESUMPTIVELY a reliable source. That presumption can be rebutted with respect to specific fact claims. Our job here is to look at all of the reliable sources, not just one, since some element of a story found in one might be revealed to be inaccurate by its conflict with other accounts, other accounts that cannot be impeached. Assessing the reliability of sources is not "original research," it means doing our job to assess which account has the best support when there are competing accounts. Note that this does not preclude presenting both accounts and the support for them where space allows. If there isn't room for both accounts in the lede, then you should wait for the body of the article instead of just asserting one of them as if it is unchallenged fact.--Brian Dell (talk) 04:25, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
I'm sorry, I need to call a quick time-out. Petrarchan, please explain very succinctly what you don't like about Brian's proposed changes and why. I have a feeling I might actually agree with you on this one (believe it or not) but I can't commit when I don't quite understand what you're fighting over. (I have no problem with the lede saying that the revocation of his passport causing Snowden to be "stranded." I rather liked that language.) --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 06:22, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
- The revocation couldn't have caused him to be stranded in Russia because the passport was revoked while he was still in Hong Kong. He shouldn't have been able to leave Hong Kong if the revocation really mattered. Even Binksternet has conceded that the Chinese did not have their hands tied by technicalities like the status of his documents and that they made a political decision that saw Snowden leave. There's a variety of solutions to the dispute here. One would be to just note Snowden's presence in Russia in the lede and leave the explanations to the body of the article. Another would be to explain Snowden's presence in Russia as due to the U.S. government, as Petrarchan and A1 et al desire, but attribute that. For example, this diff, which Petrarchan reverted, attributes the view instead of using Wikipedia's voice. The only reason I can see for refusing to have this attribution is because Petrarchan doesn't want readers asking themselves whether the claim is true or not. If there's no attribution, naturally readers are going to assume that Wikipedia wouldn't lie to them. --Brian Dell (talk) 07:47, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
- I see. There may be other solutions. Do you object to the word "stranded," to the causal relationship between the passport revocation and the stranding, or both? --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 19:20, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
- If he isn't, and wasn't, "stranded" then the question of why he wasn't stranded doesn't even arise. Again, "stranded" is fine IF it is attributed to Snowden (or Greenwald or Kucherena etc).--Brian Dell (talk) 19:28, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
- "Stranded" is used by a wide variety of reliable sources, not just by Snowden and his people. Am I wrong? --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 19:59, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
- It originated with "Snowden and his people" and in any sort of "he said, she said" context only Snowden partisans have stepped up to defend the claim, to my knowledge. Have they had some success in mainstreaming the notion, even getting it to the point that it's the received wisdom for many? Yes, they have, but when it comes to assessing reliable sources, the key question is what claims are appearing because of the source's original investigative journalism and what claims are appearing because the source is printing something because it happens to be in circulation. One of the biggest differences between reliable and unreliable sources is how lazy they are, not how likely they are to generate fabrications. Has the source printing the claim independently fact-checked it? If we fact check this one it doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Why did the Associated Press turn to the legal expert who basically said that the "stranded" line is a contrivance? Because they turned to a fact checker, is why. If there's a source that is unconnected to Snowden that has asserted this AND has clearly tried to verify it that should certainly be important. But I don't think there is.--Brian Dell (talk) 23:06, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
- Baffled. Are you talking about this AP source? Doesn't it say that Snowden was "stranded" in Russia, just like many other sources? --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 23:13, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
- Note that it is sandwiched between "if Russia's government is to be believed" and the legal expert's take. AP also attributes the claim that he is in the transit zone to Putin. There's also the observation that "The U.N. agency says there are established procedures allowing countries to grant travel documents for the resettlement of refugees who do not have passports or other papers." Preface this with "if Russia's government is to be believed" like AP does and of course I have no problem with "stranded"--Brian Dell (talk)
- The source says: "The former National Security Agency contractor who leaked U.S. surveillance secrets is not the first person to be stranded in the legally ambiguous zone between the arrivals gate and the immigration desks of an international airport." This certainly seems to me like an unattributed statement that Snowden was "stranded" in the Moscow airport. Just like the other reliable sources. It seems we have unanimity among the sources that he was "stranded." The fact that you and some unreliable sources have questioned the reliable sources is really beside the point, from a verifiability point of view. If you don't like how the journalists have come out on this then by all means, write them. (I've done it before with some success.) --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 01:15, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
- I think it is misleading to ignore everything in the AP story but what you quote here. AP very clearly says that Snowden is "staying put" IF "Russia's government is to be believed." Having adding that condition to kick off the article, AP quite rightly believes it shouldn't be necessary to continue to repeat that condition throughout the story.
- Der Spiegel is careful to say that Snowden is "reportedly" in the transit terminal and "there isn't a trace of him -- except, of course, for the steady stream of quotations that the Russian news agency Interfax gets from a mysterious source supposedly 'close' to Snowden." When Spiegel says "The only thing that seems clear is that Snowden traveled to Russia" that isn't a reluctance to claim more than that as incontrovertible truth? Or is Der Spiegel in the category of "unreliable sources [that] have questioned..." such that we shouldn't consider adopting Spiegel's caution? Spiegel counts "Snowden is having problems with his invalidated passport" as amongst "possible scenarios." Sure, Spiegel allows that it is "likely," but likely does not equal as certain as the sun coming up tomorrow. The issue here, Doc, is that you evidently believe the "speculation" that Der Spiegel engages in here is totally illegitimate. Perhaps you'd like to write them to complain about their having the audacity to express doubts? All we have to do to resolve this is just attribute. There are all sorts of attribution options listed here.--Brian Dell (talk) 02:03, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
- Thank you for providing the Der Spiegel story. When I read it my first reaction was "this is a fine mess," but now I think there's a simple explanation: there was a lot of confusion and uncertainty when Snowden first landed in Moscow. Notice that the Der Spiegel story is dated June 26 and quotes the New York Times' effort to find Snowden in the airport. The quoted Times article is dated from the day before and doesn't say there's "no evidence to prove" that Snowden was in Moscow. It simply said the times couldn't find him and there were a lot of locked doors. Fast forward 2 weeks to July 5, and now we have the Times saying Snowden was "stranded in a Moscow airport seeking a safe haven" (no attribution). On October 31, the Times said he was left "unintentionally stranded" in the airport. Mind you that the Times is the top news gatherer in the U.S. and possibly the world, with top-class journalists and the best respected editorial staff anywhere. Evidently for whatever reason, their doubts about whether Snowden was "stranded" in Moscow were allayed sometime between June 26 and July 6. That's enough for me. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 06:45, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
- While it is possible that the "confusion and uncertainty" was cleared up as the New York Times, or somebody, was able to get independent verification of "the steady stream of quotations that the Russian news agency Interfax gets from a mysterious source supposedly 'close' to Snowden," the fact that there is no report that indicates that this verification was in fact found suggests to me that as time went by editors just decided to roll with it and drop "if Russia's government is to be believed" disclaimers for copyedit reasons. Look, Doc, if you want to be mechanical about this of course you can grab any given report and say that when I don't take its wording at face value I am just being stubborn. But see this PRI story from just a couple weeks ago: there's an interview with Luke Harding, who has written a book that seeks to cover the whole Snowden saga and who I believe has spent more man hours on this than anyone on the NYT staff, and at 2:55 in the audio Harding says that while there are still several unanswered questions, such as in regard to Snowden's time in Japan, "I think the thing that most puzzles everybody is how he ended up in Russia." The Snowdenistas say it is exceedingly simple how he ended up in Russia (he was just changing planes en route to refuge in Latin America when his passport was revoked by the U.S., leaving him stranded), but this guy who literally wrote the book on Snowden says it is in fact the #1 mystery! PRI writes this up as "the question most everyone wants to know: How did he end up in Moscow? Harding says it’s not entirely clear. He talked with Snowden’s lawyer who just said the reason is 'complicated.'" The problem I have here is that you are suggesting we render the "complicated" simple. What Petrarchan boldfaced earlier in this thread is certainly straightforward, but when you look at the totality of sourcing in an analytical way, a way that appreciates, for example, that the LA Times never had someone actually investigate like Harding tried to, I think it is not the case that "doubts" have in fact been "allayed." It is possible to deal with this very succinctly in the lead by using attribution. No violence at all is done to the NYT's reporting or anyone else's by taking this approach. But refuse to attribute and I think one is pretending that the Spiegel story, PRI story, and AP story (in full) do not exist.--Brian Dell (talk) 19:42, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
- All I can say is that my doubts have been allayed. I understand that the truth may be quite complicated here, but the verifiability is not. The Harding source doesn't contradict the Times article or the other sources; at most it questions them, and even that isn't clear. This is a difficult thing to accept, but "proper" editing at WP is really rather reductionist from a content perspective. The creative and challenging part of our job is in summarizing and synthesizing the rich tapestry of reliable sources in a neutral and informative manner, not in digging behind the tapestry (what you call "looking at the totality of sourcing in an analytical way"). See WP:TRUTH#Editors are not truth finders. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 19:47, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
- And another response that I think is appropriate in general: I'm against attribution of factual content in the lead. In any article. If something is truly unverifiable then it generally doesn't belong in the lead. If the information is absolutely critical then the lead should say something like "news reports disagree over..." However, we have to be able to say that truthfully, and in this case we can't. Attribution here would cast doubt when no doubt is due. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 19:58, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
- My "digging" up the rest of the AP story, the Spiegel story, and the PRI story is not "digging behind the tapestry." It is locating sources that show that just cherry-picking a line out of the AP story or cherry-picking some other source wrongly ignores the fact that, to take just the PRI report, the reporter who apparently spent more time than any other reporter trying to verify this says verification is in fact still missing. You have attempted to explain away Der Spiegel's observation that there is no verification by saying that the NYT subsequently found verification but the NYT never actually says so, you only get that by inference. I do not believe that the NYT's editors would agree with your using them to trump Harding's long investigation if all the NYT decided to do here was just take what was appearing on Russian wires at face value. If we use attribution here there would be no conflict with any source. We could alternatively just note Snowden's presence in Russia without claims about how free he was/is there or attempts to explain why he was/is there, leaving the matter for the body of the article where there is the space to properly present it. If a fact claim has been challenged as unverified, it should be dialed back to what is indisputably verified OR the status of the verification/nature of the challenge should be presented to the reader (which, on the stylistic front, I don't think there is room for in the lede).--Brian Dell (talk) 20:53, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
- Verifiability is verifiability. I think you're not getting the policy. I really don't have anything else to offer, except to suggest that you turn to DR, as consensus is against you on this one. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 21:01, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
- Verifiability is indeed verifiability and we don't have verification here. You can find it only by rejecting those sources that say there isn't verification and to date you've justified your rejection by only saying they don't fit into "news reports disagree", which is a false alternative. The choice here is not limited to just 1) using Wikipedia's voice or 2) saying "news reports disagree". If there's only one narrative out there and the sources do not agree on the status of its verification, it does not fit into either (1) or (2). If Luke Harding does not present a competing narrative, then of course (2) does not apply. But that does not preclude Harding and Der Spiegel from disagreeing, as they obviously do, with the contention the narrative that's out there (propagated by Snowden supporters) has been verified. As for dispute resolution, I am open to all sorts of alternatives here such that I think that's still a long ways from necessary. You could edit as you see fit, and perhaps I would just add something that suggests even if most editors believe the verification to be good enough, it's not as solid as the number of states in the Union, e.g. noting that Snowden's never been seen in public since leaving Hong Kong, some little tidbit like that. Maybe you'd be fine with that.--Brian Dell (talk) 21:58, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
- It is quite verifiable. When I speak of verifiability, I'm talking about WP:V, not some broader meaning such as a requirement that journalists explain the bases for their conclusions. WP:V requires that content be supported by reliable sources. These many sources satisfy the reliability criteria. They do not fit the description of "questionable" sources either. I can find nothing in WP:V or WP:RS that supports your approach. It is true there are very occasionally times when an otherwise reliable source is clearly wrong, but this is not one of them. Notice my inclusion of the word "clearly." --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 23:59, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
- I think you're still insisting on a black/white categorization I see as unnecessary. For example, here it is suggested "We don't use Wikipedia's voice to say it, instead we use inline attribution", not for "clearly wrong" material but for "potentially inaccurate material." Just because it's not black ("clearly wrong") doesn't mean it's white. I don't think it compromises our information mission to not use Wikipedia's voice in this instance, not least because attribution to Snowden or a Snowden supporter suggests to the reader that what's claimed here has potential significance for how the subject is perceived. You would not have Snowden's supporters insisting again and again that the status of Snowden's documents stranded him in Russia if nothing rode on that. Anyway, I think you may be more concerned about what you see as the principle of the thing than specific word choices that we would inevitably edit war over. Currently, "stranded" is being stated in Wikipedia's own voice and I don't have a problem with that because of the context, which includes an attributed explanation. In the interest of reducing Talk page length, I just drop out of threads when it's no longer clear that when we return to the field of editing there would inevitably be a conflict.--Brian Dell (talk) 03:05, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
- This argument assumes that "stranded" is potentially inaccurate. It isn't. Compare to the examples in that (shoddily written) essay. Apples and oranges. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 05:54, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- Baffled. Are you talking about this AP source? Doesn't it say that Snowden was "stranded" in Russia, just like many other sources? --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 23:13, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
- It originated with "Snowden and his people" and in any sort of "he said, she said" context only Snowden partisans have stepped up to defend the claim, to my knowledge. Have they had some success in mainstreaming the notion, even getting it to the point that it's the received wisdom for many? Yes, they have, but when it comes to assessing reliable sources, the key question is what claims are appearing because of the source's original investigative journalism and what claims are appearing because the source is printing something because it happens to be in circulation. One of the biggest differences between reliable and unreliable sources is how lazy they are, not how likely they are to generate fabrications. Has the source printing the claim independently fact-checked it? If we fact check this one it doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Why did the Associated Press turn to the legal expert who basically said that the "stranded" line is a contrivance? Because they turned to a fact checker, is why. If there's a source that is unconnected to Snowden that has asserted this AND has clearly tried to verify it that should certainly be important. But I don't think there is.--Brian Dell (talk) 23:06, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
- "Stranded" is used by a wide variety of reliable sources, not just by Snowden and his people. Am I wrong? --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 19:59, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
- If he isn't, and wasn't, "stranded" then the question of why he wasn't stranded doesn't even arise. Again, "stranded" is fine IF it is attributed to Snowden (or Greenwald or Kucherena etc).--Brian Dell (talk) 19:28, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
- I see. There may be other solutions. Do you object to the word "stranded," to the causal relationship between the passport revocation and the stranding, or both? --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 19:20, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
Capsule hotel
You know what else should be "quite verifiable" in your books, Doc? "Snowden... is hosted in a capsule hotel in the Sheremetyveo International Airport in Moscow" TeleSUR may be attributing Snowden being "on transit" to Putin, but with respect to his having rented a room at the capsule hotel, TeleSur is unequivocal. Have your doubts been allayed on this? The BBC even has a story headlined "Snowden hunt: Inside ‘fugitive’s hotel’ in Moscow"! The BBC would never pursue a baseless story, would it? Now you might observe here that at the end of the clip the BBC announcer says "We simply don't know Edward Snowden's whereabouts" but at that precise point you are quite certain the announcer is wrong because we DO know! He's "stranded in a Moscow airport"! The NYT says so without qualification! Now why shouldn't we consider the capsule hotel story verified as well? Anatoly Kucherena says "He was stuck there the entire time in this capsule hotel" and Kucherena is the only person on the planet talking to the media who actually does know where he is. Sure, The Guardian may feel attribution is necessary when Kucherena claims Snowden was stranded, the British paper saying, "...Moscow airport where he had been stranded for more than a month, according to his Russian lawyer" but you believe that on THAT fact claim Kucherena is giving you unimpeachable fact. You seemed to have it all sorted out here. When Kucherena told Der Spiegel "During our second meeting, I asked [Snowden] why he was staying at the airport for so long. "I don't know what I should do," he answered." that's not to be believed in your books, because Snowden could not have have left the airport, the New York Times says so! When Kucherena later appears to contradicts himself, as he's wont to do, and says Snowden has been stranded the whole time, well now Kucherena has got it right!
So what's your take on the capsule hotel story? Just using WP:V, include or exclude? An Agence France-Presse story dated July 15 seems to have found confirmation: "A source in Sheremetyevo airport said that Snowden still has a room reserved in the capsule hotel in the transit zone, but that he also has access to a 'special rest room for staff on duty,' Interfax reported. 'Snowden's safety is being guarded both in the hotel and in this room'..." Never mind that if what AFP says here is correct then Snowden has maintained a reservation in this capsule hotel for more than three weeks and never during that time did any of the journalists who went through this hotel ever see any sign of him. If I were to find it interesting that these maintained a reservation claims appeared on Russian wires (and then on Western wires like AFP) just after Kucherena had told Der Spiegel on July 12 "stuck there the entire time in this capsule hotel" and were to suggest that maybe these Russia media reports reckoned that Kucherena's claim was so dubious in its face some explanation need to be invented, well that would be just too much looking behind the curtain on my part, wouldn't it? Those AFP guys, they know BS when they see it, representing as they do the oldest news agency on the entire planet, and they would never repeat anything without getting their own independent confirmation, right? You've swallowed the "stranded" claim Doc, why not take the sinker and the line as well? The Washington Post quotes one Igor Pavelenko, "I'm not sure at all we are being told everything. For example, as far as I know, he is in Sheremetyevo now. Okay, but maybe this is just one version. Have they shown us video or pictures of him in Sheremetyevo? No!" This Igor guy is just being difficult, right? The New York Times says he's stranded in the airport!--Brian Dell (talk) 01:19, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
- TeleSUR source? Link please?
- BBC News - so the fact that two different news outlets concluded that he was "stranded" at the airport at different times means that the first one to conclude that was wrong? As if BBC and the Times have the exact same sources? Huh? (The BBC also eventually concluded that he was "stranded" at the airport.[1][2])
- Capsule hotel - really, who cares? How does this undercut the reliability of dozens of otherwise reliable sources in any way?
- Pavelenko - a "sales manager" is an authority on this subject? If the guy doesn't know where he is, then all of these sources are somehow rendered questionable?
- --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 06:13, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- Why should we care about so much about whether he was stranded or not such that it is not enough to have that dealt with with all the nuance necessary in the body of the article?
- I posited the TeleSUR story (available here) to illustrate that your interpretation of WP:V cannot be applied consistently without getting some highly dubious material included in Wikipedia. It follows that your interpretation may be in need of revisitation.--Brian Dell (talk) 01:03, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- Why should we care about so much about whether he was stranded or not such that it is not enough to have that dealt with with all the nuance necessary in the body of the article?
"Why Snowden did not board the onward flight is unclear"
I see you evidently won't tolerate including the observations of Der Spiegel and Harding. You refuse to have this watered down to the less than certain level it is, eh? "I can find nothing in WP:V or WP:RS that supports" this removal. Are you going to read back to me where in WP:V or WP:RS you find this support or are you prepared to concede that satisfying WP:V and WP:RS is merely a necessary and not sufficient condition?--Brian Dell (talk) 04:54, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
- I honestly don't know what you're talking about. If you're talking about re-opening the issue originally raised in this thread, then feel free to explain yourself here, but it's probably fruitless as consensus is against you. If you're talking about a different issue, it might be a good idea to start a new thread, as this one has gotten awfully long. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 05:19, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
- You "honestly don't know what [I'm] talking about" when I ask just what is it "in WP:V or WP:RS that supports" your removal of Der Spiegel's and Harding's observations that there isn't a confirmed explanation for Snowden's presence in Russia? It is a very straightforward question, Doc. I know you are an intelligent gentleman who can understand a question when he wants to. I understand that you want "stranded", i.e. against Snowden's will, unchallenged in any way. Yet in the body of the article, whenever the "stranded" narrative appears, it is attributed, to Snowden, and then to Harrison, and then to Greenwald, and then to Barton Gellman (with the question raising observations of "a U.S. official" and 'legal expert James C. Hathaway" immediately following up). If this is going to be in the lede, it ought to be attributed if for no other reason than failing to do so would fail to accurately reflect the body of the article. You say that "consensus" supports your view that having attribution in the lede is a no no. Please refer me to another editor who has agreed with that. And please refer me to the policy that says that as well. I am trying to find a solution that could potentially satisfy both of us by exploring different options. The Snowden/WikiLeaks/Greenwald "stranded" claim has notably failed to be accepted by notable parties. If you refuse to dial it back to having it attributed, the fact it has been not been accepted by all notable observers should be noted and not denied.--Brian Dell (talk) 06:31, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
- I'll also note that should you observe that it does not seem to read quite right to have Wikipedia acknowledging both Harding's statement and "stranded" side by side, I'd agree (compare "Why Snowden did not board the onward flight is unclear and he remained in..." with "Why Snowden did not board the onward flight is unclear and he remained stranded in"...). Which is why this is in my view a 2nd best compromise with you (attribution is better). But since you insisted, above, that "The Harding source doesn't contradict" there shouldn't be any problem with presenting both without further elaboration, no?
- By the same token, do you see the obvious problem with your apparently preferred version "He remained stranded in Moscow until August 1"? He was in Moscow before August 1 and was still in Moscow after August 1, was he not? Do you have a source indicating that on this August day he skipped off to Siberia? or Japan? It appears to me that you may share, to some degree, my reservations about using Wikipedia's voice to say with finality that he was stranded in the airport transit zone, but you think it's still possible to have that doubt and still use "stranded." Perhaps you can find another way to square this circle. Let "stranded" go and we could have "Why Snowden did not board an onward flight is unclear and he remained in Russia. On August 1 the Russian government granted him a one-year temporary asylum." Wouldn't that be all of simple, straightforward, and indisputable?--Brian Dell (talk) 07:59, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
- Too many arguments, sorry. And you didn't even answer my question, which seems to be part of an emerging pattern. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 08:36, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
- The lede now reads:
- "…he remained stranded in the airport transit zone."
- Brian proposes:
- "…he remained in Russia."
- I second Brian's motion. The word stranded is a widely accepted part of the Snowden narrative that, as Brian argues, can ultimately be traced back to pro-Snowden partisans. Yet even if His Holiness the Pope was first to apply this word to Snowden's layover, stranded is problematic because it self-servingly victimizes Snowden, painting him as helpless in the face of forces beyond his control.
- While that may have been true, a more complicated and nuanced scenario is suggested in the body of this Wikipedia entry: "A US official said that Snowden's passport was annulled before he left Hong Kong and along with other sources, such as legal expert James C. Hathaway, said not having a passport would not prevent Russia from allowing Snowden to board an onward flight as a matter of law."
- Surely this compromises any use of the partisan word stranded in the lede.
- We should adopt Brian's version. JohnValeron (talk) 16:32, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
- No, the word "stranded" can be traced back to a multitude of reputable sources. The fact that these reputable sources happen to agree in this respect with Snowden's prior version of the facts is completely irrelevant from a from a WP verifiability standpoint. And from a truth standpoint it shows that Snowden was probably right. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 20:20, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
- From a truth standpoint Snowden is necessarily wrong because reliable sources are quite clear that Snowden's document deficiency at the time he left Hong Kong was irrelevant in terms of his leaving (Binksternet has agreed that politics carried the day there) and his document deficiency in Russia was the same apart from any additional docs provided by Russia. But quite aside from that you've provided no WP:V justification (you have been asked for this more than once and continue to refuse to answer) for removing Harding's observation that it is unknown why Snowden did not continue on to a third country. You insist that it is known why he did not continue: because he was not allowed to, with the U.S. State Department suggested as the restricting party as it is the only government entity whose actions are raised in the paragraph. I have explained, above, in detail what's wrong with your view Doc and your response is, in effect, that so many problems having been pointed out with your position you are unable to address them!--Brian Dell (talk) 23:33, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
- Harding is not a reliable source. He is a person. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 00:51, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
- "Other details missing in the Snowden narrative include the question most everyone wants to know: How did he end up in Moscow?" You insist on filling some of those details in, and refuse to allow any attribution if there is any such filling out. Never mind that in all 4 or 5 times those details are given in the body of the article, attribution is always used. Public Radio International says the details are still missing, never mind your unshakeable conviction that they have been found. My quote here is of the PRI story. You now present your novel theory about why this PRI story is "not a reliable source": because it draws on what Luke Harding's investigations have found, or more precisely failed to find, and even provides Harding's own voice to boot in the audio, and you reject all this because... wait for it... Harding "is a person." And that just won't do. Because you've lasered in your focus on your particular, exacting, absolutely rigid definitions and no earthly force will jar you into breaking your fixation and looking at the matter in an unmechanical way. You've finally acceded to my request to apply your instruments to the PRI story and you say you cannot get a verifiability reading because they detect a "person". Ironically, it is the fact we've got a person who actually looked into this matter on the skeptical side is what makes it stronger in the conflict with those sources you say make it a done deal. The New York Times had a "person" trying to verify the "stranding" on the ground in Moscow and that person could not. The paper later on starts running snippets that could simply be boilerplate (lifted off largely unchanged from Russian sources) and you think the absence of evidence a "person" on the NYT payroll has actually turned their mind to verifying the material is a point in favour? And the fact PRI is quoting a "person" who actually dug into this is a point against?--Brian Dell (talk) 02:44, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
- Dr. Fleischman, please clarify what you mean by "Harding is not a reliable source." Mr. Harding's book The Snowden Files: The Inside Story of the World's Most Wanted Man (published by Vintage Books) appears at the top of the list in the "Further reading" section of the Wikipedia article Edward Snowden, and reference 60 in that same Wikipedia article cites Mr. Harding's report "How Edward Snowden went from loyal NSA contractor to whistleblower" (published by The Guardian). Are you advising us to now remove both of those items on the grounds that Harding is not a reliable source, and to avoid or revert any future reference to his published writings on the same grounds? JohnValeron (talk) 02:52, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
- I think you are talking past the good doctor, John. Dr F draws some sort of distinction between the "book" and the "person" because he's looking at the issue like a bureaucrat down at the DMV. As far as Doc is concerned, either Form 1095-B has been completed in all particulars or it hasn't. He wants you to stay focused on the Form and prove him wrong instead of trying to excuse what he sees as an effort to end run around the system.--Brian Dell (talk) 03:49, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
- That's a pretty fair statement! --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 04:00, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
- With the result that while we are interested in Project A, writing an article, Doc is interested in Project B, adding a particular element to that article, and the people engaged in Project A are trying to end-run around Project B in Doc's mind. If I were to point out that all the sources out there each have elements of the story, it is our job to put them together to form a continuous narrative, and this project means that the elements and their sourcing cannot be assessed solely in isolation, Doc presumably disagrees, since when I presented Doc with different text proposals that included the element as a part and pointed out the problems with the larger text when the element is included, Doc wasn't much interested in engaging with that line of critique. I point out that it doesn't square with Harding and Doc's response is basically that Harding is not the issue. Which is technically true, because some other element in isolation isn't the issue either. It's the article that is the issue.--Brian Dell (talk) 06:05, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
- That's a pretty fair statement! --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 04:00, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
- I think you are talking past the good doctor, John. Dr F draws some sort of distinction between the "book" and the "person" because he's looking at the issue like a bureaucrat down at the DMV. As far as Doc is concerned, either Form 1095-B has been completed in all particulars or it hasn't. He wants you to stay focused on the Form and prove him wrong instead of trying to excuse what he sees as an effort to end run around the system.--Brian Dell (talk) 03:49, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
- Dr. Fleischman, please clarify what you mean by "Harding is not a reliable source." Mr. Harding's book The Snowden Files: The Inside Story of the World's Most Wanted Man (published by Vintage Books) appears at the top of the list in the "Further reading" section of the Wikipedia article Edward Snowden, and reference 60 in that same Wikipedia article cites Mr. Harding's report "How Edward Snowden went from loyal NSA contractor to whistleblower" (published by The Guardian). Are you advising us to now remove both of those items on the grounds that Harding is not a reliable source, and to avoid or revert any future reference to his published writings on the same grounds? JohnValeron (talk) 02:52, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
- "Other details missing in the Snowden narrative include the question most everyone wants to know: How did he end up in Moscow?" You insist on filling some of those details in, and refuse to allow any attribution if there is any such filling out. Never mind that in all 4 or 5 times those details are given in the body of the article, attribution is always used. Public Radio International says the details are still missing, never mind your unshakeable conviction that they have been found. My quote here is of the PRI story. You now present your novel theory about why this PRI story is "not a reliable source": because it draws on what Luke Harding's investigations have found, or more precisely failed to find, and even provides Harding's own voice to boot in the audio, and you reject all this because... wait for it... Harding "is a person." And that just won't do. Because you've lasered in your focus on your particular, exacting, absolutely rigid definitions and no earthly force will jar you into breaking your fixation and looking at the matter in an unmechanical way. You've finally acceded to my request to apply your instruments to the PRI story and you say you cannot get a verifiability reading because they detect a "person". Ironically, it is the fact we've got a person who actually looked into this matter on the skeptical side is what makes it stronger in the conflict with those sources you say make it a done deal. The New York Times had a "person" trying to verify the "stranding" on the ground in Moscow and that person could not. The paper later on starts running snippets that could simply be boilerplate (lifted off largely unchanged from Russian sources) and you think the absence of evidence a "person" on the NYT payroll has actually turned their mind to verifying the material is a point in favour? And the fact PRI is quoting a "person" who actually dug into this is a point against?--Brian Dell (talk) 02:44, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
- No, the word "stranded" can be traced back to a multitude of reputable sources. The fact that these reputable sources happen to agree in this respect with Snowden's prior version of the facts is completely irrelevant from a from a WP verifiability standpoint. And from a truth standpoint it shows that Snowden was probably right. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 20:20, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
- Too many arguments, sorry. And you didn't even answer my question, which seems to be part of an emerging pattern. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 08:36, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
That's all well and good (except for the underhanded part about me being not here to write an article), but I request that you make policy/guideline-based arguments. Here my concern is that you've apparently conceded that "stranded" is reliably sourced, but you continue to push your theory that he wasn't actually stranded, and your new approach is to include insufficiently notable language that casts doubt on the "stranded" meme. The two sources you cite have separate problems:
- The Spiegel source is clearly out of date, as it said there was no evidence proving Snowden was in the Moscow airport, but plenty of reliable sources published since then (including from the Spiegel itself [3][4][5]) now say without reservation that Snowden was "stranded" at the airport.
- The problems with the PRI story are that it's not a reliable source, and it doesn't even support the sentence. This is a book review; it merely parrots Harding without any independent review of his statements. And Harding doesn't say it's not clear why Snowden didn't leave Moscow, he says it isn't clear how he "ended up" there.
On top of all of that, this information is simply too detailed for the lead, since the lead should have only the very, very most notable information, and this information is way, way less notable then lots of other content that didn't make the cut--such as, off the top of my head, that Snowden used a crawler to scrape classified files, or that he obtained passwords from his colleagues by subterfuge, or that he collected documents while working at Dell, or that a "Snowden phone" is coming out, etc. etc. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 07:48, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
- You've got it quite backwards in terms of on whom the burden of proof lies. I'm not pushing a theory of my own. I'm pushing back at your theory that it is impossible for the "stranded" meme to be inaccurate. If you allowed that it was possible, you'd be acknowledging "We don't use Wikipedia's voice to say it, instead we use inline attribution" for "potentially inaccurate material."
- Your excuse for dismissing the Spiegel story is a classic argument from ignorance. You've got no evidence that the confirmation Spiegel noted as being conspicuously absent has appeared, you instead find in the fact that the "this is unconfirmed / we're only getting this from Kremlin-controlled media" riders are being dropped in later stories evidence that confirmation was subsequently found. If you want to argue that the Spiegel story was in this way rendered stale, the PRI story renders the sources you've pointed to stale as well because the PRI program effectively adds the unconfirmed rider back (as PRI says, Harding has provided "the first accounting of what happened...," with his book providing "the account put together into a whole")
- Re "parrots Harding without any independent review of his statements" this is really the height of hypocrisy. The whole problem with what you say are confirmations of the "stranded" narrative is that these sources parrot what Kremlin-connected entities claimed without any independent review. The New Yorker simply "parroted" Snowden statements "without any independent review" and you thought that was not only just fine, The New Yorker's "parroting" in fact redeemed the statements from their being otherwise dubious! At least with the PRI story we can hear Harding's voice and know that PRI's source is actually Harding and not a Wikileaks or Kremlin-connected propagandist pretending to be Harding.
- As for notability, you beg the question here by taking the view that although you think the "stranded" meme is notable, what you want removed here as not notable because it casts no "doubt on the 'stranded' meme" and is accordingly not serving here as a caveat to the "stranded" claim. When PRI says it is "the question most everyone wants to know" I should think the observation is presumptively notable. Is there a similar source calling use of a crawler the answer to "the question most everyone wants to know"? You seriously doubt whether "why Snowden did not board the onward flight is unclear" is accurate? You're convinced it IS clear? Your efforts to undermine on WP:V grounds this statement that we don't know for sure are based on a good faith concern about the credibility of the sourcing, right?
- With respect to my comments about being here for Project B, adding a particular element to an article, as opposed to Project A, writing the article, let me provide you with an example. In its story, "Snowden, in Russia, Seeks Asylum in Ecuador", the New York Times says "Legal experts said the administration appeared to have flubbed Mr. Snowden’s case". Suppose our Project B advocate wants this quote introduced into the article. Why not include it? Because of what a Project A worker sees, that's why. Like Harding, we are supposed to be Project A workers trying to put the account together as a whole. And because of that, we are aware of what the authors of this New York Times piece were apparently unaware of. The NYT story says a legal expert was "puzzled by the decision to unseal the charges on Friday rather than waiting until the defendant was in custody" but the Washington Post says there's no mystery here: "The complaint... initially was sealed... After The Washington Post reported the charges, senior administration officials said late Friday that the Justice Department was barraged with calls from lawmakers and reporters and decided to unseal the criminal complaint." We also know that the next day the official U.S. State Department spokesman said "some media reporting that somehow the State Department had dropped the ball... I just want to outright reject that... I just want to reject some of that reporting... it has been frustrating to some of us to watch some news reporting implying something in that direction which is simply not true." You seem to have a hard time accepting the possibility of inaccurate reporting. The spokesman's statements are a clear denial of the "administration appeared to have flubbed" allegation in particular and the "it's the U.S. government's fault" meme in general notwithstanding the fact it appears in the New York Times. Does this mean that the NYT was "clearly wrong" to have printed this stuff? No, but that doesn't mean it it cannot be excluded from Wikipedia on grounds of unconfirmed/dubious. Something can be dubious because of what we know from other sources without having the absolute "he said, she said" word for word contradiction you apparently demand before you are willing to concede that attribution should be used, never mind exclusion.--Brian Dell (talk) 23:38, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
- Seriously, is your goal to convince me of something or keep arguing longer and longer, more and more vehemently until I cry uncle? Your comment doesn't appear intended to achieve the former. Your argument has gotten absurdly complex, to the point where my simple brain can no longer understand it, let alone respond to it. Please write, in four sentences or less, what you want and why. We can then take that to the appropriate noticeboard (DRN or RSN, I suspect). If you don't do this then I will. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 00:16, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
- If you don't have time to address the issue then my view is that you don't have time to revert. Let me ask about just one element of your theory that the "stranded" story cannot possibly be inaccurate: you say Der Spiegel had found the confirmation they had noted was missing by July 15. Yet on July 12 Der Spiegel apparently still wasn't buying it, because it made no sense to ask Kucherena on July 12 "So he hasn't left the airport's transit zone at all over the weeks?" if Der Spiegel already knows that the answer is yes. So it was between July 12 and July 15 that Der Spiegel found the missing proof. That's your theory, right? Or was it the July 12 interview with Kucherena itself that provided the proof? The guy whom TIME magazine has described as having "a knack for misleading the press" is the guy who finally allayed your doubts? That TIME has also said that most of what Kucherena says is "fiction" doesn't bother you?--Brian Dell (talk) 00:52, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
- How do you expect me to answer your "bite sized Q" without links? --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 01:15, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
- There's more text in the links than in the bullet points I gave above which you didn't have time to read. The Spiegel interview is here and "knack for misleading the press" is here.--Brian Dell (talk) 01:37, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
- Seriously? That's your evidence that dozens of reputable news outlets were all wrong? A question by a reporter to confirm? Look at the caption of the photo at the top of that July 12 story: "Snowden during a press conference at Moscow's international airport on July 12." If you're going to continue throwing out arguments like that then we're done here. Please let me know if you intend to fulfill this request. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 06:23, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- Those "dozens" are all sourced to the exact same guy and that guy is a known liar. Yes, I absolutely think that raises "serious" questions! You seem to actually believe "If you repeat a lie long enough, it becomes truth." since the only thing you seem to be interested in is how many times it is has been repeated and not whether the source at the bottom of the chain of repetitions is notoriously unreliable. Note that Kucherena says "I asked him why he was staying at the airport for so long." How does that make any sense if he was under "house arrest" in the "capsule hotel" as Kucherena claims in the same interview? Why does somebody stay at home if they are under house arrest? Isn't it obvious why they aren't out on the town? At one point Kucherena gave an interview with Russian media where in answer to the observation that his official job is doing public relations for the FSB (the successor agency to the KGB) he acknowledges that there have been "many expressions of doubt about whether he is actually living in the airport transit area," but "I've met him many times, he's there!" Why would he possibly see a need to correct all the doubt on the record if there's no doubt on the record? If you think the fact Snowden showed up behind closed doors at the airport for one day in that "press conference" stage-managed by the Kremlin (this was the day Snowden praised Russia's human rights record) means he was there for the other 5 weeks then, yes, throwing out arguments like that does mean we're done here! At present, John and I agree on this such that I think you're view as to how much we know about Snowden's time in Russia is not consistent with consensus.--Brian Dell (talk) 01:47, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- Are you leaving it to me to frame this issue for DRN? --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 17:24, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- How do you expect me to answer your "bite sized Q" without links? --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 01:15, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
- If you don't have time to address the issue then my view is that you don't have time to revert. Let me ask about just one element of your theory that the "stranded" story cannot possibly be inaccurate: you say Der Spiegel had found the confirmation they had noted was missing by July 15. Yet on July 12 Der Spiegel apparently still wasn't buying it, because it made no sense to ask Kucherena on July 12 "So he hasn't left the airport's transit zone at all over the weeks?" if Der Spiegel already knows that the answer is yes. So it was between July 12 and July 15 that Der Spiegel found the missing proof. That's your theory, right? Or was it the July 12 interview with Kucherena itself that provided the proof? The guy whom TIME magazine has described as having "a knack for misleading the press" is the guy who finally allayed your doubts? That TIME has also said that most of what Kucherena says is "fiction" doesn't bother you?--Brian Dell (talk) 00:52, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
- Seriously, is your goal to convince me of something or keep arguing longer and longer, more and more vehemently until I cry uncle? Your comment doesn't appear intended to achieve the former. Your argument has gotten absurdly complex, to the point where my simple brain can no longer understand it, let alone respond to it. Please write, in four sentences or less, what you want and why. We can then take that to the appropriate noticeboard (DRN or RSN, I suspect). If you don't do this then I will. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 00:16, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
Proposal to move "Court rulings" out of article
Pursuant to Dr. Fleischman's recent suggestion under Talk's "Lawful cooperation" (04:27, 6 March 2014), I propose to relocate the "Court rulings" subsection from Edward Snowden to MAINWAY and/or Reactions to global surveillance disclosures. Although Klayman v. Obama and ACLU v. Clapper were filed consequent to Snowden's leaks and involved the surveillance programs he revealed, Snowden was not a party to either case and his disclosure of top secret documents was not therein litigated. Moreover, each lawsuit has its own Main Article here at Wikipedia to which we already point and link—something we could retain within a short summary paragraph. Please weigh in with any recommendations or objections. Thank you. JohnValeron (talk) 17:38, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
- Agree, this material should be merged into Klayman v. Obama and ACLU v. Clapper with summaries at both MAINWAY and Reactions to global surveillance disclosures. I think a very brief mention of these cases is warranted here, but it should be no more than a sentence or two. (Similar moves of large portions of Reactions -> Debate -> United States should be similarly moved. This section should mainly focus on Snowden's disclosures generally, rather than on the individual disclosed programs.) --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 20:11, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
- Given no objections since March 6, I executed proposed move today and distilled to concise summary in Snowden article. JohnValeron (talk) 21:02, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
too pro Snowden
Snowden is a fugitive, the considered in the lead should be eliminated. Too much pro and no mention of leading journalists who have criticized the traitor.12.133.231.42 (talk) 13:14, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
- Can you please provide links for the "leading sources who have criticized the traitor"? --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 15:24, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
Russia, Kucherena, and "stranded" AGAIN
Well, this edit war has been ongoing for about 4 months now, maybe longer. It has to do with citing reliable sources regarding the passport situation. BDell555 has determined that Snowden's Russian lawyer (Kucherina) is unreliable, no matter what he is quoted as saying, nor where he is quoted. This is based on a TIME magazine article which mentions someone saying that Kucherina likes to brag to the press.
The latest edit summary for making this reversal was: "(and you don't get to declare he is reliable in face of all the contrary evidence, which has been outlined at length on the Talk page. This is already repeatedly stated in the body of the article. That's enough.)"
Our coverage (as of this edit) of the passport situation has been discussed here ad infinitum, and what we have in the article best represents what RS say. BDell555 is using OR to change the way the story is told to our readers in a way that is not represented in sources, but only in his mind.
I don't want to have to go over this again. Would others from the community care to suggest a way to end this edit war? What type of Rf? or noticeboard would work for this content dispute? Thanks in advance. petrarchan47tc 10:37, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
- Maybe we can have an RfC about Kucherena, to establish what we trust about his statements. Most of his statements appear to be straight facts, while some may be angled to make his client look good. The main arguments we employ should be based on whether the media generally accepts the statement, or expresses doubt about the statement. Binksternet (talk) 17:56, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
- I'm not sure there are any other arguments against using Kucherina, though to get clear on using him as RS would be good. Media outlets don't seem to question him and quote him without reservation. TIME made a comment that BDell555 has used as an excuse to remove undesirable info. It's that info that I'd like to seek clarity on, first and foremost. We've discussed the passport/transit zone fiasco on this talk page for far too long, and the edit war has not been affected one iota by these efforts. I will dig up our past work in a bit. An RfC about what can be said on this topic would probably be the way to go. petrarchan47tc 19:56, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
- One comment in TIME is certainly a piece of evidence to examine, but it is not the whole story. We would have to ask whether other observers have the same problem with Kucherena, and the answer is that a large majority do not. Binksternet (talk) 20:24, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
TIME magazine doesn't say he "brags" to the press, it says he MISLEADS the press. And describes most of what Kucherena says as "fiction", not bragging. This Forbes piece points out how clueless western media outlets including the New York Times have been about Kucherena's Institute of Democracy and Cooperation propaganda outfit and the Kremlin's capacity for propaganda generally. So it's not true that only TIME has complained about the press being taken for a ride.
Kucherena was contradicted by Putin when Putin admitted that Snowden had had contact with Russian diplomats in Hong Kong and Kucherena is in fact frequently contradicted by others and himself. Kucherena said that "I am his only link with the outside world" while Greenwald says he, Greenwald, is "in constant contact with Snowden." Which is it? I could go on. "The whistleblower was unaccompanied when he left the airport in a regular taxi, Kucherena added. However, WikiLeaks contradicted the lawyer, saying the organization’s activist Sarah Harrison accompanied Snowden." Note that here you have the media pointing out the contradiction, not just me. One minute Kucherena says the only thing keeping Snowden in Russia is the U.S. but in the next minute he says Snowden "has no right to cross Russian borders."
This interview with Sophie Shevardnadze is classic Kucherena: while Snowden says he handed everything to journos in Hong Kong, Kucherena says just "some" were handed over and Snowden "certainly" still has "some materials that haven’t been made public yet". Kucherena says "the US.... effectively locked him inside the airport" (by making the false assertion Snowden's passport was not revoked until June 23) within seconds of saying one should look to Snowden's will for why he was "locked" for as long as he allegedly was: "Actually, it took some time for Snowden to make up his mind". So which is it? Kucherena then admits the transit zone "is still Russian territory"! After 24:35 you can see the way Sophie rolls her eyes at the "so we're told" claim that Snowden was stranded in the transit area. Even this Russia Today personality is like "yeah, right" and Wikipedia is supposed to declare "remained stranded in the airport transit zone until August" with the same sort of certainty that the Earth is the third planet from the sun?
Kucherena insists Snowden was "at the capsule hotel" but when told "there were also reporters who stayed at that capsule hotel for weeks on end, looking out for Snowden 24/7. He couldn’t spend six weeks inside his capsule, could he?" Kucherena suddenly decides maybe Snowden's at another hotel! "But there’s more than one hotel." Why couldn't Kucherena just stick to what he claimed was the case and say it's not his fault if nobody else could find him at the capsule hotel instead of turning on a dime and saying, OK, well maybe he was at some other hotel?--Brian Dell (talk) 02:15, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
- Luckily for us, Kucherina has nothing to do with any of this. For the Lede, we want summary style, very clear language as close to sources as possible. BDell555 doesn't seem to like the very clearly stated assertion that Snowden was stranded in the airport, and therefore in Russia. He has talked and talked and talked, and will continue to, about why we can't possibly state this in the Lede, but this is not in keeping with RS guidelines and should not be allowed to continue to take up editor's time any longer. Here is what RS says. I am asking now that we make it official: Bdell555 does not get to rewrite or whitewash this in the Lede or elsewhere, and if he continues to disrupt this article he should be banned from it.
- Snowden was stranded in the Moscow airport transit zone
- Snowden has been stranded for more than 20 days
- Snowden remains stranded in Russian airport as Ecuador asylum may take months
- Snowden stranded in Moscow airport for now
- The NSA leaker was stranded for six weeks
- Edward Snowden still stuck in airport
- But he never got on that flight. The United States had cancelled his passport, so he lacked documents to board the plane or enter Russia – leaving Snowden stranded in an airport no man's land
- Snowden’s stranded at the airport
- [Snowden had been effectively trapped] at Moscow's Sheremetyevo International Airport since June 23, when he arrived on a flight from Hong Kong. He was intending to change planes in Moscow, apparently for Latin America, but was caught in limbo when the United States canceled his passport.
- ‘US trapped Snowden in Russia’
- Snowden, who is stranded at Moscow airport
- Putin says Putin on Monday accused the United States of trapping US intelligence leaker Edward Snowden in Moscow..."He arrived on our territory uninvited, he did not fly to us, he was flying in transit to other countries...But as soon as he was in the air, it became known, and our American partners essentially blocked off his further flight."
- Daniel Ellsburg (41:11): "They made [Snowden] stateless by virtue of revoking his passport while he was in transit through Russia to go on to Latin America. He actually had tickets for an outbound flight from Moscow. One of the ironies here is that he ends up in Russia, not because he choose to, but because the US saw fit to revoke his passport. They forced his to remain there because he no longer had valid travel papers. It makes it extraordinarily difficult to continue traveling, you're stuck where you are."
- Whistleblower Snowden stranded in Moscow airport transit area
- more here
- and here
- When it is THIS difficult to get what is widely reported in RS, as it is reported, onto a Wikipedia article, the likely case is that there is a POV problem with some editors. I think it is next to insane to allow this topic to continue to be discussed any more. When BDell555 argues that we can't possibly quote RS in this case, he gives us long endless diatribes that make no sense to anyone. To keep entertaining this nonsense as if it's anything but just makes us all look ridiculous. It's time for some kind of formal process about this issue. (I'm also really sick of edit summaries like "we've discussed it already - Kucherina just can't be trusted!". I don't know if this person is serious, or just having a laugh, but you can't pour out your personal ideologies on a talk page and consider it some kind of formal judgement - at least not one recognized by anyone else.) petrarchan47tc 06:51, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
I could point out your errors here, like the fact that speaker at "41:11" is not "Daniel Ellsburg" (sic) but Thomas Drake, a person who is not in a position to know where Snowden really was in July 2013, but let's just look at the very first instance you give here, Petrarchan, as an example. We see "Snowden was stranded in the Moscow airport transit zone, which is technically not Russian territory, on 23 June, after US authorities annulled his passport while he was travelling from Hong Kong." Yes, the Guardian uses its own voice here, but the Guardian is demonstrably wrong. It's claimed his passport was annulled during travel. That's false, the passport was revoked June 22, and Snowden did not board a flight until June 23. The State Department's official spokesperson has rejected the media reporting that State moved too late to prevent Snowden from leaving HK. The truth is that the Chinese simply ignored the U.S. It's also not true that the transit zone is not Russian territory. See the legal expert quoted in the body of the article on this point, and see Kucherena's own admission that the transit zone "is still Russian territory"! I see the title of this Guardian article is "Edward Snowden plans to stay in Russia, says lawyer" yet you presumably reject this article as unreliable on that point and when it specifically says "Snowden... intends to remain in Russia long-term" since you currently have the lede declaring that Snowden "is seeking asylum in the European Union." How is Snowden supposed to get to western Europe when Kucherena is there insisting that Snowden "has no right to cross Russian borders"? Evidently this Guardian article is only reliable for the particular points on which you want it to be reliable! This article is based on Kucherena's media scrum. Can you not see Kucherena's photo there surrounded by the world's media? If Kucherena is unreliable then this article is unreliable. And all the other sources here also rely on Kucherena. There's no other source here in a position to know except Sarah Harrison of Wikileaks who is also unreliable. You've refused to respond to any of the observations I just noted above like how that interviewer who had an opportunity to "cross examine" Kucherena quite clearly thinks this guy is full of it, and Kucherena himself couldn't keep his story straight as he insists Snowden was stranded at the capsule hotel until he faces scepticism about that claim from his interviewer at which point he casually drops the claim and throws something else out there.--Brian Dell (talk) 18:07, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
- Your appreciation of the unreliability of the sources used by a journalist is not relevant. If the journalist thinks the source is good enough to quote, then that information becomes reliably sourced for Wikipedia. We can weigh the relative value of sources that we choose to use, but dismissing Kucherena or Harrison out of hand is not what we're doing. Binksternet (talk) 18:15, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
- There is no "water to wine" transformative effect when an unreliable source is used by a reliable source, it simply turns a presumption of unreliability into a presumption of reliability. That presumption of reliability can be, and here is, rebutted by showing that the source used is unreliable. What's claimed here is contradicted by other, more reliable sources. Russians in Russia are skeptical, Pavel Felgenhauer calls the "stranded" claim "absurd", noting that Aeroflot could put any transit passenger on any plane if it wished to (if the Kremlin allows, see Kucherena's statement that Snowden cannot cross the Russian border in order to go to Germany), and that the Sheremetyevo transit area is the sovereign territory of Russia. In November Deutsche Welle was still using gloves with the stranded in the airport claim: "On July 12, 2013... Snowden had already been in the transit area of the airport for three weeks. At least that is what the Russian authorities claimed; journalists hadn't seen Snowden..." (in the same piece DW says "It is impossible for anyone trying to contact Snowden to bypass Kucherena. He is not only the whistleblower's lawyer, he is also his spokesperson.") Add the caveat here like DW does and there's no dispute. Use Wikipedia's voice and in light of the skepticism and the contradictions it is necessary to present some evidence here that "the journalist" who does not use attribution tried to independently verify the claim, or was aware of TIME magazine's view that the source "mislead[s] the press," and that would shift the burden of proof again back on to the skeptics. Shevardnadze cross-examined Kucherena on the claim and Kucherena couldn't keep his story straight.--Brian Dell (talk) 19:21, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
Introducing the French version of PRISM, as revealed by Snowden in Le Monde. Note that the intercepted data is shared with GCHQ. Perhaps important enough to be briefly mentioned here?
-A1candidate (talk) 20:36, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
"According to Russian authorities"
This statement was added to the claim that Snowden was stranded, yet the Fox news report does not say anything about Russian authorities, so I have to assume BDell555 is editorializing again, and I am wondering why this is allowed to continue. Wikipedia is not a fricking playground.
This is what RS says: [Snowden] has been stranded in the transit zone of Moscow's Sheremetyevo airport, after the US withdrew his passport on his arrival from Hong Kong three weeks ago.
Insinuating that only Russian authorities have supported this claim is meant to discredit the claim, and is complete BS. BDell555 was present when we covered all the people who have made this claim, and he is aware the list includes: Assange, Sarah Harrison (not a Russian authority, and was present during the ordeal), Gellman, Greenwald, Thomas Drake (also not Russian, and heard it from Snowden himself), and more.
The proper claim, if we need a caveat, would include all these names and would need a source for the claim added by BDell555 about Russian authorities. Until one emerges, I'm removing it and going to try sticking to what RS has to say, if that's all right with the "editors" obsessing over certain aspects of this article. petrarchan47tc
- Yes, that's clearly the right thing to do, and I can't believe you folks are even arguing over this. Unfortunately your edit does not seem to have had the intended effect. I put back a citation date that I assume you removed by accident. Kendall-K1 (talk) 23:26, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, the Fox ref was probably removed awhile back, as it continues to be. Thanks for the fix. "We" are not arguing over this - it is one person who has been arguing about this for going on 6 months now. I am beginning to wonder if we are all insane for putting up with it, and if it's possibly time for a noticeboard to see how others feel about a ban, or some corrective measure. petrarchan47tc 00:35, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
- I don't really want to get involved, because then I'd have to read the half dozen screens of diatribe above, but just looking at the sources I don't see any need to attribute "stranded" to unnamed Russian authorities. Kendall-K1 (talk) 01:02, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
- It needs to be attributed because it's extremely dubious! The reliable sources conflict, so we have to sort it out, and when you investigate it it becomes quite clear that "[Snowden] has been stranded in the transit zone of Moscow's Sheremetyevo airport, after the US withdrew his passport on his arrival from Hong Kong three weeks ago" is demonstrably false. Editor John Valeron agrees. Petrarchan continues to pretend that there isn't a problem with the material. We do not use Wikipedia's voice to make a claim of fact when the material can be proven dubious by reference to reliable sources. I'll also note that there is no conflict between "according to Russian authorities," which is clearly sourced to Deutsche Welle, and the fact that it's also according to a variety of Snowden advocates like G. Greenwald. One can add Greenwald and everyone else but I don't think it is necessary when we've already got them and their opinion on the point in the body of the article, and when most of these people did not actually witness Snowden "stranded in the airport" like Russian authorities would have been in a position to. These people are basically just saying they agree with the Kremlin line. By the way, what happened last time you went to a noticeboard about a conflict with me, Petrarchan? What were you told again?--Brian Dell (talk) 05:53, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
- I don't really want to get involved, because then I'd have to read the half dozen screens of diatribe above, but just looking at the sources I don't see any need to attribute "stranded" to unnamed Russian authorities. Kendall-K1 (talk) 01:02, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
The Register says "US authorities cancelled Snowden's passport shortly before his departure from Hong Kong... Snowden is supposedly stranded in the transit area of Moscow's Sheremetyevo airport" If you don't like having the "stranded" claim attributed, "supposedly" can be used instead.--Brian Dell (talk) 18:23, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
conflicting sources? Hong Kong to Moscow
Again, to the Lede in reference to Russia. This time, he has declared a Fox News article "demonstrably false", and I assume he will be willing to demonstrate for you good people all day long why this article is not valid as a source. Unfortunately, BDell555 has been directed to the guidelines about both OR and SYNC in the past, but has shown no indication that he gives much credence to them - only to his favored version of 'facts'.
How long do we put up with this? We look really silly. I feel like an idiot writing on this talk page over and over the very same thing. This is why Wikipedia is loosing editors. It's a mind-numbingly stupid experience at times. petrarchan47tc 05:39, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
- Your refusal to assess all of the sources here, not just your cherry picked ones, and appreciate the problem here is indeed getting ridiculous. You have edit warred over this article for months now while refusing to address the problems with your editing. Your refusal to respond to me above and instead of addressing the content issue start a new section levelling accusations at me as an editor is part of the unceasing pattern here.--Brian Dell (talk) 05:51, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
- Cherry picking? I could hardly find an article that didn't refer to it a "stranded". DW is a RS, but this article is cherry picking. It is essentially a hit piece on Kucherina and only briefly mentions Snowden leaving the airport. It in no way refutes our statement in the Lede, and has no business there. It is demonstrably untrue that Russian authorities are the only source for the claim being made, and is proven by my laundry list of links above. I'm not participating in this with you any longer. petrarchan47tc 05:56, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
- Then how is that no western reporter ever saw Snowden even once in this transit zone if it is so widely verified? Kucherena says Snowden was right there in the public areas including that transit hotel the whole time. The source you say is "a hit piece" supports "according to Russian authorities" and does so reliably. I suppose you think the TIME story saying Kucherena "mislead[s] the press" is also a "hit piece"? You can go hide your head in the sand here but that is not going to change reality. You went to a noticeboard about the Russ Tice article and were clearly told that I had the better argument. You then proceeded to ignore that result for an extended period of time. I suggest returning to a noticeboard as I am quite confident that the editing community will not support using Wikipedia's voice to declare "stranded in the airport" when all the evidence for how doubtful that claim happens to be is laid out in front of them.--Brian Dell (talk) 06:06, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
- Cherry picking? I could hardly find an article that didn't refer to it a "stranded". DW is a RS, but this article is cherry picking. It is essentially a hit piece on Kucherina and only briefly mentions Snowden leaving the airport. It in no way refutes our statement in the Lede, and has no business there. It is demonstrably untrue that Russian authorities are the only source for the claim being made, and is proven by my laundry list of links above. I'm not participating in this with you any longer. petrarchan47tc 05:56, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
- Neat thing is, it's not up to me. I just report what's in RS. You can take a rest too, because what you deduce and conclude is completely irrelevant to Wikipedia unless it's written in RS (and used appropriately).
- [edit conflict] I would agree to go to a noticeboard, or better yet to have an RfC here on two content issues: Is Kucherina RS? and Can we say Snowden was stranded? petrarchan47tc 06:09, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
- What you report is contradicted by other RS. Stop pretending otherwise.--Brian Dell (talk) 06:10, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
- I'm going to stop dialoguing with you altogether, we will invite others to respond instead. Cheers, petrarchan47tc 06:12, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
- I can only shake my head at the idea that you think there would be community support for the idea that Kucherena is a reliable source. The TIME claim that he has a "knack for misleading the press" would just be exhibit A in a long line of exhibits.--Brian Dell (talk) 06:18, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
- If it's just exhibit A, then why the obsessive over-quoting of it? You mention this blurb by TIME repeatedly. I haven't seen other exhibits, but RS quotes Kucherina without reservation, and by WP standards, there is nothing more to discuss. I think you are harassing editors and not following guidelines properly. You should not be allowed to do it any longer. petrarchan47tc 06:27, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
- There's no point in proceeding to exhibit B when you refuse to look at exhibit A, is there? I see you have now deleted the fact that Snowden's passport was revoked on June 22 to have Wikipedia make the false claim that it was revoked June 23. I have gone on repeatedly at great length to explain why sources reporting a June 23 date are wrong. You have never made even the slightest attempt to justify doubting the (more reliable) sources indicating a June 22 date yet you just now removed the Associated Press article which refers to "the revocation of Snowden's passport on June 22". If it were revoked in Hong Kong while he was in the air it would have had to have been revoked during the afternoon or evening of June 23. If it were revoked in Moscow while he was in the air it would have had to have been revoked during the afternoon or morning of June 23. If it were revoked in Washington while he was in the air it would have had to have been revoked during the middle of the night or morning of June 23 (he arrived in Moscow after 9 AM Washington time). These are all still June 23 and incompatible with AP's definitive June 22 date besides the State Department (which is the only entity to definitively know when it acted) officially denying that it moved too late and in fact complaining about the false media reports. You know there is a conflict and that's why you have deleted a reference to the Associated Press article. The Guardian is simply wrong here yet you want to use it instead because it suits the false narrative you want to spin. The fact that you can point to a bazillion other sources making the same mistake doesn't mean they are not wrong too. If Kucherena hadn't misled the press as he's been accused you wouldn't have cases where the press was misled now, would you?--Brian Dell (talk) 07:07, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
- If it's just exhibit A, then why the obsessive over-quoting of it? You mention this blurb by TIME repeatedly. I haven't seen other exhibits, but RS quotes Kucherina without reservation, and by WP standards, there is nothing more to discuss. I think you are harassing editors and not following guidelines properly. You should not be allowed to do it any longer. petrarchan47tc 06:27, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
- I can only shake my head at the idea that you think there would be community support for the idea that Kucherena is a reliable source. The TIME claim that he has a "knack for misleading the press" would just be exhibit A in a long line of exhibits.--Brian Dell (talk) 06:18, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
- I'm going to stop dialoguing with you altogether, we will invite others to respond instead. Cheers, petrarchan47tc 06:12, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
- What you report is contradicted by other RS. Stop pretending otherwise.--Brian Dell (talk) 06:10, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
If it is true that you "just report what's in RS", Petrarchan, then how about reporting that "The United States canceled Snowden's passport before he left Hong Kong"? Those are the EXACT WORDS used by the Los Angeles Times, and the LA Times uses its own voice to say them, without any attribution. Are you going to tell me that you cannot "report" that because the source is unreliable? Yet you have been edit warring to add back a citation to, not just the exact same source, the Los Angeles Times, but the exact same author, one Sergei L. Loiko! When I said, above, that "What you report is contradicted by other RS. Stop pretending otherwise." your retort was "I'm going to stop dialoguing". That makes the clear conflict between the sources go away, does it?
I could, of course, take a page from your playbook and go on and present a whole bunch of sources and demand that you recognize them. When the International Business Times said "ABC News later reported Snowden’s U.S. passport was revoked Saturday, one day before his Hong Kong departure, saying he no longer had legal travel documents at the time of his flight" you ought to be especially keen to report that because you can find the claim in not one but two RS here, right, both IBT and ABC News? When we read "[June 23] was a day of frustrated scrambling by U.S. officials who have been seeking Snowden’s extradition and had annulled his passport a day before he left Hong Kong as part of an effort to thwart his escape." in the Boston Globe that ought to be another twofer since you've got the Boston Globe and the New York Times, as the Boston Globe byline says the story appears by virtue of "New York Times Syndicate", right? In fact, I don't play this source counting game. To make the case that the "stranded" line is bogus I have been calling attention to genuinely new sources like this one: "Snowden does not need passport to travel, says refugee expert". In the case of the passport revocation I know that our source here is ultimately just one, the U.S. government, just like the source for "stranded at the airport" is ultimately just Anatoly Kucherena/the Kremlin. But I should at least think that you'd avoid the hypocrisy of dumping a whole bunch of sources here on the Talk page as if that strengthens your case and then turning around and saying it doesn't matter how many sources say Snowden's passport was revoked BEFORE he left Hong Kong as all of those sources ultimately rely on U.S. officials.
Let's look again the particular source you've cherry picked here, The Guardian. In the Guardian's version "Whistleblower Snowden escapes arrest in Hong Kong thanks to US errors." But the official State Department spokesman said the very next day that this reporting is hogwash: "There was some media reporting that somehow the State Department had dropped the ball or we didn’t proceed as we needed to on this case, and I just want to outright reject that". It is simply irresponsible to proceed with the Guardian's reporting here given the U.S. rejection, particularly when the Guardian even admits in the same story that it was aware at the time that "American authorities announced they had revoked his passport before he had got on the flight from Hong Kong"!--Brian Dell (talk) 17:03, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
Do we use RS, or BDell555, in determining content?
The latest edit summary from BDell555 is: as explained, and as has been explained, on Talk, the narrative supported [by] the most reliable sources does not support the implication that the U.S. "stranded" anyone
He admits that he is not keen to use RS, but rather his own OR. This, my friends, is EXACTLY the problem I have been trying to point out for literally months. There is no reason this argument should continue to hold sway over this article and talk page. It is 100% backwards according to my read of the Wikipedia guidelines. We go with RS EVEN if/when they have it wrong, because we are not allowed to include our own research here. Can you imagine the anarchy if we did? So why is it allowed at the Snowden article?
To keep OR out of this most crucial bit of information, I added a direct quotation from the Guardian: stranded in the Moscow airport transit zone...on 23 June, after US authorities annulled his passport while he was travelling from Hong Kong petrarchan47tc 23:14, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
- "According to my read of the Wikipedia guidelines," writes petrarchan47, "we go with RS EVEN if/when they have it wrong." That is appalling—a blueprint for an Encyclopedia of Misinformation assembled not by editors but by robots. JohnValeron (talk) 03:57, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
- We have many reliable sources saying Snowden was "stranded". In fact, most of the sources use this concept. Note that this is a passive construction—Snowden was not stranded by the US who wished him to be stranded, he was stranded by the overall situation of having an invalid US passport, and by Russian authorities not allowing further travel. Brian Dell's reverts appear to be based on his certainty that the US did not intend to strand Snowden in Moscow's airport. Well it is obvious that Snowden being stranded is not an accusation that the US did it on purpose. Instead, the US wanted Snowden arrested and sent back to the US. Binksternet (talk) 04:52, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
Question to the community
Is it time to hold an RfC about what exactly we can say regarding the passport/stranding situation? Does the RS hold up, or are we swayed by the arguments (if anyone can read or understand them) repeatedly put forth by BDell555? petrarchan47tc 23:21, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
- Can someone sum up the argument against including "stranded" without attribution or qualification? No more than 200 words max please. Also no references to any editors or to the history of this argument. Kendall-K1 (talk) 23:34, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
- Hopefully! petrarchan47tc 06:32, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
- I think that BDell should be the one to explain it to Kendall in 200 words or less. Gandydancer (talk) 13:54, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
- Hopefully! petrarchan47tc 06:32, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
Per WP:LEAD, the lead should mention significant controversies. In our present instance, the word "stranded" is challenged because it signifies the controversy over whether or not Snowden was forced by the U.S. government to discontinue his flight upon landing in Russia. As now written, the lead presents only one side of this controversy, citing The Guardian report that Snowden was "stranded in the Moscow airport transit zone on 23 June, after US authorities annulled his passport while he was travelling from Hong Kong." The lead also cites Snowden's WikiLeaks escort Sarah Harrison to the effect that Snowden was unable to leave the transit zone with a revoked passport.
When this incident is described in the body, however, we suddenly encounter a controversy to which the lead fails to allude. Let me flesh out the relevant sources cited in the first paragraph of subsection 3.2 Russia:
- From an AP report: "A U.S. official on Sunday said Edward Snowden's passport was annulled before he left Hong Kong for Russia. Snowden's travel plans could be complicated—but not thwarted—by a lack of passport. The U.S. official said that if a senior official in a country or airline ordered it, a country could overlook the withdrawn passport."
- From another AP report: "Russian President Vladimir Putin says Snowden is in the airport's transit area after flying in from Hong Kong on Sunday. Authorities in Moscow say he is not officially in Russia and is free to leave. His best bet could be to seek political asylum from a country that would grant him safe passage. … 'Having documents to travel is not a prerequisite to applying for asylum,' said Laura Padoan of the United Nations refugee agency. The U.N. agency says there are established procedures allowing countries to grant travel documents for the resettlement of refugees who do not have passports or other papers."
- From SPIEGEL: "From a legal standpoint, bringing Snowden to Germany does not pose a significant problem. The fact that he does not have a valid passport would not stand in the way of his departure, nor would it prevent the Russians from allowing him to board a flight to Germany. Upon his arrival at a German airport, he could apply for asylum. … If there were no risk of flight, there would be no grounds for taking Snowden into custody. Experts are virtually certain in ruling out the possibility of Snowden actually being extradited to the United States, since the German-American extradition treaty does not apply to 'political offences.'"
Why is this controversy broached in the body but omitted from the lead? Granted, per our due weight policy, articles should not give minority views as much attention as more widely held views. Wikipedia aims to present competing views in proportion to their representation in reliable sources. But that does not mean a minority view must be excluded from the lead. "When reputable sources contradict one another and are relatively equal in prominence," we are instructed, "describe both approaches and work for balance." Whichever editors addressed this issue in the body obviously concluded that AP and SPIEGEL are reliable sources and equal in prominence to The Guardian and Sarah Harrison. Thus, after quoting Barton Gellman on Face the Nation that Snowden was "literally changing planes in the Moscow airport when the United States revoked his passport," our editors cite a source directly contradicting Gellman: "A US official said that Snowden's passport was annulled before he left Hong Kong." This is great. With both sides of the controversy in immediate proximity, we can make up our own minds as to which is more believable.
Why can't the same approach be employed in the lead? Why do we get only one side of the story there? I submit that the controversy—not among editors but among equally reputable and equally prominent sources—over the timing of Snowden's cancelled passport and his capacity to nevertheless resume his trip, compromises any use of the loaded word stranded in the lead. Please, let's stop playing the Edward Snowden victimization card long enough to strike a seemly balance. JohnValeron (talk) 00:09, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
- Thank you. It doesn't seem like much of a controversy to me. Your first source relies on an anonymous US official and doesn't say that Snowden wasn't stranded. Your second source actually says that he was stranded. Your third source doesn't say that he wasn't stranded, in fact it says he would be arrested if he went to Germany. It also isn't talking about his stay at the airport, but later after he left the airport. We don't know why he was stranded, but we have several sources that say he was, and none that say he wasn't. The issue of when his passport was revoked hardly seems worth mentioning in the lead. Kendall-K1 (talk) 07:30, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
- 2-Person Consensus: As now written, the lead states: "… and his passport was revoked by the State Department on June 22." Since you and I agree that, as you write, "The issue of when his passport was revoked hardly seems worth mentioning in the lead," I will exercise WP:BOLD and delete the date, which will flush out members of the Wikipedia editorial community who disagree with us. Hopefully, they will also read this Talk exchange and take a moment to explain why the date of revocation is, in their opinion, required in the lead. JohnValeron (talk) 16:54, 29 March 2014 (UTC) Again acting on our consensus that the date his passport was revoked is not worth mentioning in the lead, I shall also delete the phrase "… while he was travelling from Hong Kong" from The Guardian quotation. JohnValeron (talk) 17:09, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
- I wouldn't call that consensus, I don't like the word "thereafter," and I prefer edits that make the lead shorter. I'd like to cut that paragraph way back, and get rid of all those references. Ideally there wouldn't be any refs in the lead. Kendall-K1 (talk) 17:22, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
- I used the word thereafter because that sentence begins, "On June 21" and since we no longer specify a date of revocation, readers could easily misconstrue it as being on June 21. As for cutting that paragraph way back, I encourage you to exercise WP:BOLD and trim the lead to show us how it ought to look. Capital idea! JohnValeron (talk) 17:51, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
- I wouldn't call that consensus, I don't like the word "thereafter," and I prefer edits that make the lead shorter. I'd like to cut that paragraph way back, and get rid of all those references. Ideally there wouldn't be any refs in the lead. Kendall-K1 (talk) 17:22, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
- 2-Person Consensus: As now written, the lead states: "… and his passport was revoked by the State Department on June 22." Since you and I agree that, as you write, "The issue of when his passport was revoked hardly seems worth mentioning in the lead," I will exercise WP:BOLD and delete the date, which will flush out members of the Wikipedia editorial community who disagree with us. Hopefully, they will also read this Talk exchange and take a moment to explain why the date of revocation is, in their opinion, required in the lead. JohnValeron (talk) 16:54, 29 March 2014 (UTC) Again acting on our consensus that the date his passport was revoked is not worth mentioning in the lead, I shall also delete the phrase "… while he was travelling from Hong Kong" from The Guardian quotation. JohnValeron (talk) 17:09, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
Irrespective of Stranded: If we can agree that an anonymous U.S. official quoted by the Associated Press constitutes a source at least equal in reliability and prominence to Snowden's WikiLeaks escort Sarah Harrison, I propose adding to the lead—immediately following "he was unable to leave the transit zone with a revoked passport"—the following, with citation to its AP source: "The Associated Press, however, cited an anonymous U.S. official who said that if a senior official in a country or airline ordered it, a country could overlook the withdrawn passport, thus allowing Snowden to continue his travels." JohnValeron (talk) 17:51, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
- Anonymous U.S. officials are not sources. Sarah Harrison is not a source. The AP is a source. See WP:RS. I have taken you up on your offer, and avoided "stranded" since some people don't like it. Kendall-K1 (talk) 23:13, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
- Thank you for your editing. The lead's troublesome third paragraph is now much improved. I fully support this version and encourage other editors to do likewise. JohnValeron (talk) 23:43, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
- Numerous RS used the term "stranded", and it matters absolutely naught whether a couple Wikipedia editors "don't like it". You don't get to cut apart a paragraph leaving no actual information just because one guy complains on the talk for months, and then another pops in all of the sudden to make his arguments for him. I'm calling bull.petrarchan47tc 03:49, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
- I want to know where BDell555 is, and why John Valerian appears to be speaking for him. When I try to get a handle on this months-long edit war, someone always jumps in and completely shifts the focus. Last time it was Dr F. Why are people covering for BDell555? Why not let him continue his argument so we can get closure? I would appreciate that, because I am always the one left to deal with him Thank you. petrarchan47tc 04:10, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
- Please let me state categorically for the record: I am not speaking for Brian Dell or any other Wikipedia editor. I obviously jumped the gun in declaring a 2-person consensus with Kendall-K1, who rebuked me accordingly and for which I apologize. But I am participating here in good faith with the object of providing much-needed balance to this article, which is overly sympathetic to its controversial subject. JohnValeron (talk) 15:55, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
- Thank you for your editing. The lead's troublesome third paragraph is now much improved. I fully support this version and encourage other editors to do likewise. JohnValeron (talk) 23:43, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
So you admit to having a bias - one that is in alignment with Bdell555 and Dr F. I am uncomfortable with your assumption that this article needs to be more negative towards the subject. You seamlessly stepped in to support Dr F when he was alone in arguing this very thing, and when he was alone in supporting BDell555 (just as we were getting somewhere with calling attention to the edit warring in January, ending the process in an instant). I notice you suddenly popped in and made a critical edit at The Day We Fight Back, again seamlessly on the heels of Dr F (by one day). I'm not calling you a sock, but there is and has been somewhat of a partnership that I must call attention to, as this problem with Bdell555's consistent edit warring has continued because of Dr F's using this page to retaliate against me personally rather than to deal with the article-related issues here, and completely railroading the beginnings of a very healthy, cathartic conversation, and because this game playing has kept us from addressing a very real problem that almost ended my WP editing altogether.
The conversation about Bdell555's edits needs to happen - I am unwilling to deal with it for another 6 months or weeks. Those who've just stepped in cannot recognize the game that is being played here - but it is clear to me. This section is about Bdell555's edit warring, and it is up to him to finally explain and defend what he has been doing since December. What he has been doing, with regularity, has taken up countless hours of my time, and of a few others. One needs only to scan this talk page to see what we've been required to read, and scan the edit history to see the edit warring. I am finally asking: should we be required to deal with BDell555 any longer, and whether there is validity to his arguments or not - because ultimately if there is not, the editors should no longer be required to deal with him.
Maybe a request for comment on user is needed. But for now, please stop confounding this serious situation at an article you've dropped into during the height of talk-page controversy. Your edits and arguments are tendentious and you've admitted to the reason. If you feel the article as a whole is just too friendly towards Snowden, be responsible and create a new section to voice your concerns. I will note that Dr F is now in agreement with me and refuses to support Bdell555 in this passport edit war, though I am not expecting an apology. He disappeared... but here you are as if only the name has changed. And Bdell555 is suddenly is nowhere to be seen, meaning he will be back once the noise dies down, leaving me to deal with him by myself, again. petrarchan47tc 16:56, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
- At the very least John, use the talk page rather edit warring over passport information in the lede. Can we agree to this? I thought this was a given. petrarchan47tc 17:10, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
- Notwithstanding your paranoid fantasies, my only "bias" here is in striving for fairness. In becoming interested in Edward Snowden, I was disappointed to find a Wikipedia article that leans over backward at every step to depict him in the most favorable light, while autocratically rejecting any attempts to balance this controversial subject. I will continue to make edits as I see fit, and you will no doubt continue to revert my edits. So be it. Perhaps eventually we will reach a stalemate. If, at that point, this article is more balanced, I will be satisfied. JohnValeron (talk) 17:17, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
- Voice your concerns with specifically how this article is biased in favor of Snowden in a separate section, please. "[L]eans over backward at every step to depict him in the most favorable light" - can I assume this is in reference the subject at hand, the passport situation? I would argue that a read of the article shows it covers both sides fairly in general, and that what I have leaned over backwards in favor of, is simply getting the fact straight. If you have arguments about how the facts are bing misrepresented in the (current) Lede with regard to the contested para, please state them here: petrarchan47tc 17:24, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
- Notwithstanding your paranoid fantasies, my only "bias" here is in striving for fairness. In becoming interested in Edward Snowden, I was disappointed to find a Wikipedia article that leans over backward at every step to depict him in the most favorable light, while autocratically rejecting any attempts to balance this controversial subject. I will continue to make edits as I see fit, and you will no doubt continue to revert my edits. So be it. Perhaps eventually we will reach a stalemate. If, at that point, this article is more balanced, I will be satisfied. JohnValeron (talk) 17:17, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
To review, let's first look at the evidence against the "stranded" thesis, and then also at the absence of reliable evidence for:
NOTABLE EVIDENCE AGAINST
The Washington Post speaks of "Snowden’s ability to board an Aeroflot flight Sunday to Moscow, despite the revocation of his passport and the warrant for his arrest..." If Snowden can leave Hong Kong "despite the revocation of his passport" why can't he similarly leave Russia?
A "leading authority on international refugee law whose work is regularly cited by the most senior courts of the common law world" has said that Snowden could have walked out of the airport at any time as the transit zone is legally the same as the rest of Russia: "Moscow airport is as much a part of Russia as is the Kremlin. Many nations pretend that airport transit lounges are not part of their territory, indeed not under their jurisdiction. As a matter of international law, this is completely false." In the print version of the South China Morning Post there is an article titled "No passport, no problem" and in there we read "Even though the US had cancelled his passport, Snowden could still leave Russia, Simpson said, saying sovereign nations had the right to act on their own." See also the AP and Spiegel quotes provided by JohnValeron earlier in this thread.
Wikileaks says that Snowden's passport had not yet been revoked at the time he left HK, only getting revoked while he was in the air, yet according to Wikileaks they arranged a Ecuadorean temporary travel document for Snowden so he could leave Hong Kong. Why couldn't he just use his U.S. passport to leave Hong Kong if it hadn't been revoked? And why couldn't the same Ecuadorean document be used to leave Russia and continue on towards Ecuador?
WEAK EVIDENCE FOR:
"there isn't a trace of him [in the airport transit zone]-- except, of course, for the steady stream of quotations that the Russian news agency Interfax gets from a mysterious source supposedly 'close' to Snowden."
How reliable is Interfax?
"the headlines of Russian news agencies were rather misleading.... concealing the Kremlin's involvement"
Example of Interfax conflicting with the New York Times:
"The New York Times has managed to speak to an Aeroflot reservations agent who said Snowden's ticket to Moscow was one-way and didn't include any onward travel. ..." versus
"Interfax, the Russian news agency, is saying .... there is a ticket in the American's name for a Moscow to Cuba flight". New York Times again: "Russian news services reported that Mr. Snowden would take a Monday afternoon flight to Cuba... But others dismissed it as a ruse..."
When a particular source for the stranded claim is identified who was in a position to know, it is Anatoly Kucherena, Snowden's "only link with the outside world." Who is Kucherena? "a man with close ties to the Kremlin and a knack for misleading the press" Before Snowden's name ever appeared in the news, Kucherena was calling for the prosecution of those who developed software that could help users evade government surveillance. Kucherena is frequently contradicted. He claimed that Snowden "did not enter into any communication with our diplomats when he was in Hong Kong" but Putin has acknowledged that "Mr. Snowden first appeared in Hong Kong and met with our diplomatic representatives."
After 24:35 of this interview the interviewer's body language suggests great skepticism ("so we're told") about Kucherena's claim that Snowden was stranded in the transit area. When the interviewer suggests the capsule hotel claim is dubious, Kucherena replies "But there’s more than one hotel." Why would Kucherena say that when Kucherena has elsewhere insisted that "He was stuck there the entire time in this capsule hotel"? Kucherena is all too willing to tell you a second story if you don't believe the first one. Kucherena once admitted that there have been "many expressions of doubt about whether he is actually living in the airport transit area," but "I've met him many times, he's there!" Why would Kucherena feel he needed to correct the "many expressions of doubt" unless the doubt is serious?--Brian Dell (talk) 03:16, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
- Why are you bothering to post your original research about body language? Binksternet (talk) 03:18, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
- You know what the evidence comes down to? Kucherena's claim that he couldn't have left the terminal because "If he had been able to leave the terminal, at the very least he could have gotten another shirt. I have seen him in the same clothing over and over again." Kucherena says that's what he's going on. And then every other source in turn relies on Kucherena. Not exactly rock solid.--Brian Dell (talk) 03:34, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
- Perhaps it's gone unnoticed, but as the article now stands, the only use of the hotly contested word is part of a quotation from Sarah Harrison under the Temporary asylum in Russia section: "I was travelling with him on our way to Latin America when the United States revoked his passport, stranding him in Russia." The word no longer appears in Wikipedia's voice. JohnValeron (talk) 03:42, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
- A synonym has the same problem. The claim should not go into the lede without attribution regardless of which word is chosen unless the reliably sourced material that places the claim in grave doubt is also acknowledged.--Brian Dell (talk) 03:04, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
- If by synonym you mean statement in lede that Snowden was "caught in limbo," please note that it appears within quotation marks and is attributed to LA Times. JohnValeron (talk) 03:51, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
- OK, let's use a LA Times story by Sergei L. Loiko. But let's not cherry pick our LA Times stories by Sergei L. Loiko, how about? How about we use this one which says "The United States canceled Snowden's passport before he left Hong Kong on a flight to Moscow on June 23. Snowden was believed to be planning to transfer in Moscow to a flight to Cuba, and from there make his way eventually to Ecuador. However, he has missed several flights to Cuba and has not left the transit zone of Sheremetyevo-2 airport, according to the Russian Foreign Ministry." Note 1) unequivocal statement that passport was revoked "before he left Hong Kong and 2) attribution of the "not left the transit zone" claim to the Russian government. This is what I mean by attribution: Wikipedia:Citing_sources#In-text_attribution.--Brian Dell (talk) 07:02, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
- It's difficult to talk about this because the lead's contentious second paragraph changes every few minutes as each side in turn petulantly reverts the other side's edits. At this instant, it reads in pertinent part: "The United States federal government charged Snowden with espionage and revoked his passport. Snowden then flew to Moscow…" (emphasis added). Doesn't that satisfy your desire to clarify that the US canceled his passport before he left Hong Kong? As for adding in-text attribution to the LA Times for the phrase "caught in limbo," please note this example to avoid at Wikipedia:Citing_sources#In-text_attribution: "In-text attribution can mislead. The sentence below suggests The New York Times has alone made this important discovery: 'According to The New York Times, the sun will set in the west this evening.'" Similarly, if we were to write that Snowden was, "according to the LA Times, 'caught in limbo,'" readers might mistakenly infer that only the LA Times reported such a complication. JohnValeron (talk) 18:28, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
- I did not change "...passport. Snowden then flew to Moscow..." and have no issues with that. The issue here is asserting a causal relationship between the US government's actions and Snowden being stuck in Russia without even using attribution never mind acknowledging the other sources that have expressed doubt. "Stuck" = "stranded" = "caught in limbo", no? The issue is saying he's been grounded by his passport when legal experts say that's not true. You previously agreed that the claim is questionable yet now you think that if a synonym is used that's all it takes to becomes as solid as "the sun will set in the west this evening"?
- The New York Times never, in fact, "discovered" anything about Snowden in Moscow and neither did any other western based source. They are simply repeating what Russian source(s) say they discovered. We could settle this by using this LA Times material: "RUSSIAN AUTHORITIES SAY that Snowden has remained in a transit area of the airport..." It seems to me that some editors don't like that story because it also quotes a commentator saying "The Chinese siphoned all the information out of Snowden and in a very smart fashion shook him off to Russia" and that's supposedly irresponsible journalism. But for another sort of claim the same paper and same author becomes highly reliable? Why not use this by the same author in the same paper: "The United States canceled Snowden's passport before he left Hong Kong on a flight to Moscow on June 23. Snowden was believed to be planning to transfer in Moscow to a flight to Cuba, and from there make his way eventually to Ecuador. However, he has missed several flights to Cuba and has not left the transit zone of Sheremetyevo-2 airport, according to the Russian Foreign Ministry." Just what is wrong with that? The "according to the Russian Foreign Ministry" part? Deutsche Welle writes "...Snowden had already been in the transit area of the airport for three weeks. At least that is what the Russian authorities claimed; journalists hadn't seen Snowden..." so attributing to the Russian government is not unique to the LA Times.--Brian Dell (talk) 19:38, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, I previously agreed that the claim of Snowden being "stranded" is questionable, and I still think so. As I explained earlier, I consider stranded a loaded word because it self-servingly victimizes Snowden, painting him as helpless in the face of forces beyond his control, when there is (as you have tirelessly pointed out) reliably sourced reporting to suggest he could have continued his journey without a valid passport. For example, AP cited the United Nations refugee agency as saying there are established procedures allowing countries to grant travel documents for the resettlement of refugees who do not have passports.
- In this regard, I was particularly impressed by your objections early last month to using stranded in Wikipedia's voice.
- If you want to claim he was "stranded" in a Moscow airport, that claim should be attributed instead of using Wikipedia's voice.--Brian Dell 22:17, 1 March
- Again, "stranded" is fine IF it is attributed to Snowden (or Greenwald or Kucherena etc.)--Brian Dell 19:28, 3 March
- Currently, "stranded" is being stated in Wikipedia's own voice and I don't have a problem with that because of the context, which includes an attributed explanation.--Brian Dell 03:05, 5 March
- More recently, Brian, I have endorsed Kendall-K1's edited lead of 23:07, 29 March and A1candidate's version two days later. Alas, both fell by the wayside.
- I am now again satisfied with this part of the lead, which declares that without a valid passport, Snowden was "caught in limbo." The key here is putting that phrase within quotation marks. For readers who presume Wikipedia's voice is speaking, that punctuation serves as scare quotes, alerting the reader that the phrase (in Wikipedia's words) "should be understood to include caveats to the conventional meaning." Other readers, who presume this phrase is quoted directly from a source, will find it within our inline citation after the sentence. To me, this is an acceptable compromise that avoids stating the bogus "stranded" in Wikipedia's voice yet conveys Snowden's precarious situation that may have been mostly of his own making. JohnValeron (talk) 23:07, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
- It's difficult to talk about this because the lead's contentious second paragraph changes every few minutes as each side in turn petulantly reverts the other side's edits. At this instant, it reads in pertinent part: "The United States federal government charged Snowden with espionage and revoked his passport. Snowden then flew to Moscow…" (emphasis added). Doesn't that satisfy your desire to clarify that the US canceled his passport before he left Hong Kong? As for adding in-text attribution to the LA Times for the phrase "caught in limbo," please note this example to avoid at Wikipedia:Citing_sources#In-text_attribution: "In-text attribution can mislead. The sentence below suggests The New York Times has alone made this important discovery: 'According to The New York Times, the sun will set in the west this evening.'" Similarly, if we were to write that Snowden was, "according to the LA Times, 'caught in limbo,'" readers might mistakenly infer that only the LA Times reported such a complication. JohnValeron (talk) 18:28, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
- OK, let's use a LA Times story by Sergei L. Loiko. But let's not cherry pick our LA Times stories by Sergei L. Loiko, how about? How about we use this one which says "The United States canceled Snowden's passport before he left Hong Kong on a flight to Moscow on June 23. Snowden was believed to be planning to transfer in Moscow to a flight to Cuba, and from there make his way eventually to Ecuador. However, he has missed several flights to Cuba and has not left the transit zone of Sheremetyevo-2 airport, according to the Russian Foreign Ministry." Note 1) unequivocal statement that passport was revoked "before he left Hong Kong and 2) attribution of the "not left the transit zone" claim to the Russian government. This is what I mean by attribution: Wikipedia:Citing_sources#In-text_attribution.--Brian Dell (talk) 07:02, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
- If by synonym you mean statement in lede that Snowden was "caught in limbo," please note that it appears within quotation marks and is attributed to LA Times. JohnValeron (talk) 03:51, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
- A synonym has the same problem. The claim should not go into the lede without attribution regardless of which word is chosen unless the reliably sourced material that places the claim in grave doubt is also acknowledged.--Brian Dell (talk) 03:04, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
- Perhaps it's gone unnoticed, but as the article now stands, the only use of the hotly contested word is part of a quotation from Sarah Harrison under the Temporary asylum in Russia section: "I was travelling with him on our way to Latin America when the United States revoked his passport, stranding him in Russia." The word no longer appears in Wikipedia's voice. JohnValeron (talk) 03:42, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
- You know what the evidence comes down to? Kucherena's claim that he couldn't have left the terminal because "If he had been able to leave the terminal, at the very least he could have gotten another shirt. I have seen him in the same clothing over and over again." Kucherena says that's what he's going on. And then every other source in turn relies on Kucherena. Not exactly rock solid.--Brian Dell (talk) 03:34, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
- Why are you bothering to post your original research about body language? Binksternet (talk) 03:18, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
"intended to change planes" has better proof than "why Snowden did not board an onward flight is unclear"? Where is the clarity coming from? That's so indisputable that using Wikipedia's voice instead of attributing is appropriate? If he intended to do so why didn't he? There's never been a satisfactory explanation for why not. A revoked passport didn't prevent him from getting on a plane departing Hong Kong for another country. Why didn't he use that document issued by Ecuador to continue onwards? It wasn't disowned by Ecuador until days later. The New York Times says reports of onward travel were just a "ruse." Under Russian law permission is only required to NOT board an onward flight within 24 hours. "but without a valid passport was 'caught in limbo'" clearly blames the passport for not changing planes as intended and presents the passport as the explanation for being 'caught in limbo'. This is the narrative the partisans want you to believe: it's the US government that explains Snowden's presence in Russia. This narrative should be presented to the reader, and in the body of the article it is, but in the body of the article the problems with the narrative are also noted and we also see in the body just who is making the claim (namely, partisans who, when presenting the narrative as they believe it get details like just when the passport was revoked demonstrably wrong). The lede should not be making stronger, more unequivocal claims than the article's body (or the sources) support.--Brian Dell (talk) 01:10, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks for replying. In focusing on "caught in limbo" within quotation marks as a substitute for stranded with no quotation marks, I overlooked the immediately preceding "without a valid passport." Whether or not that construction "clearly blames the passport for not changing planes," as you write, it does create the potential for serious misunderstanding. Indeed, the more I look at the LA Times source for this sentence, the less satisfactory it becomes.
- He was intending to change planes in Moscow, apparently for Latin America, but was caught in limbo when the United States canceled his passport.
- By using the preposition "when" for causal effect, the LA Times does clearly blame the passport for not changing planes. By obscuring that point, Wikipedia's current paraphrase is unfaithful to its source and is therefore unacceptable. JohnValeron (talk) 15:48, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
Edit warring in the lede instead of voicing concerns on talk and waiting for consensus
I note that instead of engaging on the talk and answering these questions, John is now completely reworking the Lede. I would argue that drastic changes to the Lede be discussed here first, and that to make drastic changes one needs a good knowledge of the subject, the story, and what is contained within the body of the article, as the lede is supposed to summarize all of this. Right now it's being used as a battleground. Please stop. petrarchan47tc 18:02, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
- Please stop ordering me around like a schoolmarm. And please stop pretending that I am the only editor presently striving to improve the lead. Check the article's Revision History tab. JohnValeron (talk) 18:09, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
What's the rationale behind the inclusion of Snowden's travel dates, passport details, and itinerary changes? This is not Wikitravel. -A1candidate (talk) 18:13, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
- I fully support deleting ALL mention in the lead of travel dates, passport details, and itinerary changes. JohnValeron (talk) 18:17, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
- Well, I tried. Kendall-K1 (talk) 23:22, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
- Here's a suggestion. Don't put anything that requires attribution in the lead. Leave that stuff for the article if you must. So nothing about how Snowden said he was headed to Cuba (or wherever), nothing about how the Russians said he was free to go, etc. Just stuff that actually happened, like that he flew from HK to Moscow. If we start putting in what people said, this edit war will not end. Kendall-K1 (talk) 00:42, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
- Kendall-K1, rest assured your efforts have not gone unappreciated, at least by me. I was satisfied with the lead as you left it as of 23:07, 29 March 2014. Regrettably, Petrarchan47 saw fit at 04:01, 30 March 2014 to "add back some information," thereby precipitating a renewed exchange of edits. As it now stands, thanks mostly to A1candidate, I am again satisfied with the lead. We'll see how long it lasts. JohnValeron (talk) 01:24, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
The Lede has became a mess because it has been hit with edit warring for months now. The refs aren't supposed to be included, but we have had new editors pop in and put citation needed tags in the Lede (even though the details were in the body), so I took the easy route and added refs. Also, since the 'how Snowden ended up in Russia' story, which is a very big part of Snowden's story, has taken the brunt of the edit warring, dates and random details have been added as editors wrangle over how the story is told. It shouldn't sound like a travel itinerary, it should sound like RS, which states it very very simply, but which BDell555 has been arguing non-stop against, and that is how the dates ended up in the Lede. I will show you how RS talks about it in the following section, and I ask again why we aren't allowed to say it simply. To say "Snowden flew to Moscow and has been living there..." is not sufficient and it is misleading. He didn't intend to fly to Russia. If we can find RS that talks about his winding up in Russia like this, without mentioning how he got there, and if it outweighs the sources that state unequivocally that he was "stranded" or "stuck" there, we will have to go with that telling. But we don't choose text just to quiet complainers on the talk page. We go with what RS says, and try to state it similarly to keep our own OR out of it. petrarchan47tc 05:47, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
- "'Snowden flew to Moscow and has been living there...'" is not sufficient and it is misleading." It is on the contrary both accurate and solidly sourced. "He didn't intend to fly to Russia." Then why did he? Fact is, he went there and stayed there, and none of the excuses for why he failed to continue on to a third country stand up to the scrutiny that other reliable sources have applied. The people who have tried to spin the story that somehow the U.S. government picked him up and dropped him in Russia cannot get their story straight.--Brian Dell (talk) 18:00, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
RS on Snowden's Russia stay
Previous conversations here and here and here
- * [Snowden] had been effectively trapped at Moscow's Sheremetyevo International Airport since June 23, when he arrived on a flight from Hong Kong. He was intending to change planes in Moscow, apparently for Latin America, but was caught in limbo when the United States canceled his passport.
- * Russia, though it was initially supposed to be a stopover, perhaps on the way to Ecuador
- * The transit lounge in Moscow's Sheremetyevo Airport has become the latest world hotspot with American whistleblower Edward Snowden reportedly stuck there amid a war of words between the United States and Russia.
- * Kucherena said he handed the asylum papers to Snowden today, and Snowden then left the airport, where he has been stuck since arriving from Hong Kong on 23 June.
- * The Russian president defied U.S. calls last week to hand over Snowden, who remained stuck in the transit area of Moscow’s Sheremetyevo airport days after arriving on June 23 from Hong Kong
- * “I was only transiting through Russia,” he wrote. “I was ticketed for onward travel via Havana—a planeload of reporters documented the seat I was supposed to be in—but the State Department decided they wanted me in Moscow and cancelled my passport.”
- * Snowden was supposed to fly to Havana after a 22-hour layover in Moscow, and connect to either Bolivia or Ecuador. However, he did not board the flight, to the chagrin of nearly the entire Moscow press corps who found his reserved seat 17A empty.
- The United States pressured Cuba to prohibit the flight from landing if Snowden was on board, several sources told the newspaper. Cuba was one of the countries that the United States threatened with “unfavorable consequences” if it accepted Snowden, a source close to the State Department was quoted as saying by Kommersant.
- A Russian official told Kommersant that before flying to Moscow, Snowden spent two days at the Russian consulate in Hong Kong. Snowden told the Russians that he planned to ask for political asylum in a Latin American country and presented a ticket to Havana, with a 22-hour layover in Moscow, dated June 23. He said that his life was in danger and asked for help, citing international conventions for refugees.
- * Moscow was initially intended as a temporary stopover on his journey, as Snowden was believed to be headed to Ecuador via Cuba. However, he ended up getting stranded at Sheremetyevo Airport after the US government revoked his passport. Snowden could neither leave Russia nor enter it, forcing him to remain in the airport’s transit zone.
- * According to Russian news agencies, Snowden landed in Moscow on a flight from Hong Kong, where he was met by officials from the Ecuadoran embassy. Snowden, who is reportedly staying at an airport hotel, is said to be en route to Ecuador via Cuba and Venezuela.
- WikiLeaks, which has been assisting Snowden since he blew the whistle on NSA's surveillance program, said that the former government contractor is "being escorted by diplomats and legal advisers from WikiLeaks." Ricardo Patiño Aroca, Ecuador's foreign minister, confirmed on Twitter that the government theree had indeed "received an asylum request from Edward J. #Snowden."
- * Associated Press reported Snowden landed in Russia’s capital and appeared to be headed for Cuba on Monday and then on to Caracas, Venezuela.
- But other reports said Snowden eventually wants to land in Ecuador.
- The Wall Street Journal reported that U.S. officials said they would pursue Snowden regardless of wherever he seeks refuge.
- His flight came after Hong Kong declined a U.S. request to extradite the man who revealed information on highly classified National Security Agency spy programs.
- * Diplomats and law enforcement officials from the United States warned countries in Latin America not to harbor Mr. Snowden or allow him to pass through to other destinations after he fled Hong Kong for Moscow, possibly en route to Ecuador or another nation where he could seek asylum.
- Mr. Snowden managed to elude capture just as American officials were asking the Hong Kong authorities to detain and send him to the United States on charges that he illegally disclosed classified documents about global American surveillance programs. He was aided in his escape by WikiLeaks, the antisecrecy organization, whose founder said he helped arrange special refugee travel documents from Ecuador.
- * Former U.S. National Security Agency contractor Edward Snowden will fly from Moscow to Cuba on Monday and then plans to go to Venezuela, a source at the Russian airline Aeroflot said on Sunday.
- The source said Snowden was already on his way to Moscow from Hong Kong and would leave for Havana within 24 hours.
- The South China Morning Post also reported that Snowden had left Hong Kong for Moscow and that his final destination might be Ecuador or Iceland. The WikiLeaks anti-secrecy website said Snowden was heading for an unnamed "democratic nation".
- The flight to Moscow prompted speculation that Snowden might remain in Russia, whose leaders accuse the United States of double standards on democracy and have championed public figures who challenge Western governments.
- But Putin's spokesman, Dmitry Peskov, said he was unaware of Snowden's plans and the Foreign Ministry declined immediate comment on whether he had asked for asylum.
- * As Washington put pressure on Hong Kong to extradite him, Snowden boarded a flight to Moscow on June 23. He was booked on another flight from Moscow to Cuba, presumably en route to seeking asylum in a Latin American country.
- But he never got on that flight. The United States had cancelled his passport, so he lacked documents to board the plane or enter Russia — leaving Snowden stranded in an airport no man's land.
- * Snowden was initially expected to fly onward to Cuba on Monday, rendering speculation moot that Russia could offer him asylum. But according to media reports, he was not on the 2 p.m. flight from Moscow to Havana. Pushkov said, however, that it wasn't likely that Moscow would grant him asylum, despite previous indications to the contrary. Russian news agencies had reported on Sunday, citing employees of the Russian airline Aeroflot, that Snowden intended to fly onward from Cuba, possibly to Venezuela.
- The foreign minister of Ecuador, however, said on Monday that the country was currently looking at an asylum request from Snowden and suggested that it could be the final destination of the NSA informant's journey. "We are analyzing it with a lot of responsibility," Ecuadorian Foreign Minister Ricardo Patino told reporters in Vietnam, which he is currently visiting.
- I note that most of these sources are quite hedged and imprecise in what they say and to the extent that Wikipedia also takes a cautious approach, there is no conflict here. In the few cases where the claims about exactly where Snowden is, was, or is doing in Russia are unqualified, you continue to miss the point, Petrarchan. It doesn't matter how many sources you find when they are all secondary to a primary source that is demonstrably unreliable. Repeating a bogus claim does not salvage the claim. The PRESUMPTION is of reliability. Here, that presumption has been thoroughly rebutted by those sources that have sought to verify the claim. Show us a source that has attempted to VERIFY the claim and successfully done so and then, and only then, will you have answered the objections. Luke Harding is an example of a independently aligned reporter (if anything, he is sympathetic to Snowden) who investigated the claim and he was unable to verify it. You are ignoring the many sources that raise grave doubts about the claim, starting this new section, for example, instead of responding to the sources I called attention to in an earlier section. In some cases there are outright contradictions between sources, and you have never said anything about how you would resolve those conflicts beyond just picking the source which tells the narrative you prefer and demanding that it be included without consideration of conflicting sources.--Brian Dell (talk) 17:52, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
Note the editor here who says "not reliable" in boldfaced text and then goes on to say "the BBC citation... is just reporting what the Xinhua citation says. It is not an independent source." This reflects the editing community's view of how sources should be analyzed. Another editor in that thread says "If a reporter saw it with his own eyes, then it can be used and this is a good source for facts (but to be reliable, it has to come from a reliable media, and probably has to name the reporter). Ideally two independent witnesses are needed. If a reporter is just repeating a press release/statement, then this is pure hearsay..." That standard is not official in any way yet it is still worth noting that we have here doesn't come within a million miles of that standard.--Brian Dell (talk) 03:24, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
Hawaii photo
We could use a photo from Hawaii to brighten up this otherwise drab looking article. Kendall-K1 (talk) 22:41, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
Public opinion polls needs to be condensed
Public opinion polls are a great inclusion, but needs to be condensed and written in a couple paragraphs, using the other sections in the article as an example. How much weight/space should public opinion polls take? My opinion is, no more than 2 paragraphs. petrarchan47tc 05:37, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
Public opinion polls
Polls conducted by news organizations following Snowden's disclosures to the press of secret government surveillance programs found that American public opinion was divided.
- June 12–16: USA Today/Pew Research poll found that 49 percent thought the release of information served the public interest while 44 percent thought it harmed it. The same poll found that 54 percent felt a criminal case should be brought against Snowden, and 38 percent disagreed.[2]
- June 12–16: The Washington Post-ABC News poll cited 43 percent of respondents saying Snowden ought to be charged with a crime, while 48 percent said he ought not.[3]
- June 17–18: Rasmussen Reports found that 12 percent of American adults viewed Snowden as a hero, while 21 percent considered him a traitor.[4]
- June 15–July 1: The Economist/YouGov poll tracked public opinion over three consecutive weekends, comparing results from June 15–17, June 22–24 and June 29–July 1. Asked their view of Snowden, respondents indicating "favorable" rose from 40 percent to 42 percent then down to 36 percent. "Unfavorable" grew steadily from 39 percent to 41 percent to 43 percent. Those supporting his prosecution increased from 27 percent to 34 percent and held there; those opposed steadily declined from 32 percent to 31 percent to 25 percent.[5]
- July 1–2: The Huffington Post/YouGov poll found that 38 percent of Americans thought Snowden did the wrong thing, 33 percent said he did the right thing, and 29 percent were unsure.[6]
- July 17–21: NBC News/The Wall Street Journal Survey found that 11 percent of Americans viewed Snowden positively while 34 percent had a negative view.[7]
- June 28–July 8: Quinnipiac University Polling Institute survey found that 55 percent of Americans regarded Snowden as a whistleblower while 34 percent saw him as a traitor.[8] When Quinnipiac repeated the poll from July 28–31, the results were unchanged.[9]
- July 28–29: Among likely U.S. voters surveyed by Rasmussen Reports, 32 percent considered Snowden a traitor who endangered lives and national security, whereas 11 percent called him a hero.[10]
- November 14–17: The Washington Post-ABC News poll found a significant shift in opinion as to whether or not Snowden ought to be charged with a crime. In contrast to the same organizations' June poll, November's results showed 52 percent favoring his prosecution (up from 43 percent) and 38 percent opposed (down from 48 percent). Similarly, when asked whether, irrespective of his being charged with a crime, Snowden was right or wrong to disclose the NSA intelligence-gathering efforts, 37 percent said he was right and 55 percent said he was wrong. All told, nearly two to one (60 percent versus 32 percent) thought Snowden's disclosures had harmed U.S. national security.[11]
- January 15–19, 2014: USA Today/Pew Research poll reported little change from the previous June on the question of the government pursuing a criminal case against Snowden, with 56 percent in favor and 32 percent opposed. The poll found that people younger than 30 offered the least support for prosecution, being evenly divided at 42 percent in favor and 42 percent opposed. Over all age groups, opinion was also nearly equally divided as to whether or not Snowden's disclosures had served the public interest: 45 percent said yes, while 43 percent said Snowden harmed the public interest.[12]
- January 18-20: The Economist/YouGov poll likewise found Americans evenly split, with 43 percent viewing Snowden favorably and 41 percent unfavorably; 46 percent approving his leaks and 43 percent disapproving; 28 percent supporting his prosecution and 29 percent opposed.[13]
- January 22: CBS News poll revealed a larger split (almost 3:1) as to whether or not Snowden ought to stand trial for his actions, with 61 percent in favor and 23 percent saying he should be granted amnesty. CBS News also differed from Pew Research on the issue of whether or not Snowden's disclosures had been good for the country, with 40 percent saying yes and 46 percent saying it had been bad. When asked to come up with a word that best describes Snowden, nearly a quarter of respondents volunteered either "traitor" or a similar word questioning his loyalty to his country, while 8 percent said he is "brave" or "courageous" or "a hero." Just 2 percent volunteered that he is a "patriot" or "patriotic," and another 2 percent said "terrorist."[14]
- January 22–25: NBC News/The Wall Street Journal Survey found continued low public approval for Snowden, with 23 percent supporting what he did, 37 percent opposing it, and 39 percent expressing no opinion.[15]
- March 26–28: The Huffington Post/YouGov poll found that 31 percent thought Snowden was right to leak top-secret information about government surveillance programs to the media, while 33 percent believed he was wrong; 45 percent favored his prosecution, with 34 percent opposed; and 35 percent would support a presidential pardon, with 43 percent opposed.[16]
So apparently John Valerian didn't just create all this, he moved it from another article. It should have been moved to Commentary on Edward Snowden's disclosure, which I will do now. petrarchan47tc 07:18, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
- If you feel to write up a summary of these polls for this article, that would make sense. But we have spin off articles for a reason - this one is too long to support a blow by blow of every single public poll ever taken. petrarchan47tc 07:22, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
- Agreed this list doesn't belong in this article. Both of you might also want to read Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia, which gives some attribution guidelines to follow when copying material from one article to another. Kendall-K1 (talk) 10:49, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
More edit warring over Snowden being stuck/stranded
When will we be done with this edit war? As I explained in the edit summaries today, if RS isn't questioning the story, and since ample sources say he was stuck (most use the word "stranded", but that word caused 4 months of talk page hell, so...) we should have no problem saying it here. I used CBS news today since the last source troubled Valerion. It says: Snowden had been stuck inside the transit zone of the airport since he arrived June 23. He could not enter Russia because he did not have a Russian visa and he could not travel to safe haven opportunities in Latin America because the United States had canceled his passport. from ABC. petrarchan47tc 19:32, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
- (After more edit warring) The Lede is a condensed version of the body, which should represent the balance of RS on the topic. There is no wide array of sources questioning the claims we've got in the Lede, which I quoted from the ABC source above so there would be no problems. The UN blurb is already in the body. It does not warrant mention in the Lede. petrarchan47tc 19:42, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
RS are most certainly questioning the story. You just don't like those RS and have been removing them. Your preferred version of the lede does NOT reflect the body of the article because when this comes up in the body of the article context is given and who is making the claim is also identified.--Brian Dell (talk) 20:26, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
- No, you don't get to just state that. I have left lists of RS saying exactly what we claim in the Lede - even Dr F has told you that you have no case as you are arguing against stacks of articles using the very language we do. petrarchan47tc 20:32, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, I do get to point out everything you are ignoring in order to push your bogus narrative. You still have yet to respond.--Brian Dell (talk) 20:42, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
petrarchan47, in your edit summary at 19:25, 8 April 2014, you contend: "RS does not doubt the story we tell in Lede." Yet my edit cited an AP article that does indeed cast doubt on your partisan account. Moreover, for you to proclaim that the Associated Press is not a reliable source is preposterous—on a par with your earlier Talk absurdity: "We go with RS EVEN if/when they have it wrong…" As far as I am concerned, you have zero credibility as a Wikipedia editor, and I shall henceforth independently confirm and where appropriate challenge whatever you contribute to this article. JohnValeron (talk) 22:02, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
- ^ Newport, Frank (June 12, 2013). "Americans Disapprove of Government Surveillance Programs". Gallup.
- ^ "Public Split over Impact of NSA Leak, But Most Want Snowden Prosecuted". Pew Research Center. June 17, 2013.
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: Cite journal requires|journal=
(help) - ^ "Poll: Public wants congressional hearings on NSA surveillance". The Washington Post. June 19, 2013.
- ^ "12% See NSA Leaker Snowden As Hero, 21% As Traitor". Rasmussen Reports. June 19, 2013.
- ^ "As Snowden Stays In Russia, He Slips In Public Opinion". YouGov. July 3, 2013.
- ^ Emily Swanson (July 5, 2013). "Edward Snowden Poll Finds More Americans Now Think He Did The Wrong Thing". Huffington Post. Retrieved July 9, 2013.
- ^ Rebecca Ballhaus (July 24, 2013) WSJ/NBC Poll: Most Americans View Snowden Negatively The Wall Street Journal
- ^ Salant, Jonathan D. (July 10, 2013). "Snowden Seen as Whistle-Blower by Majority in New Poll". Bloomberg News. Retrieved July 10, 2013.
- ^ Nelson, Steven (August 1, 2013). "As Edward Snowden receives asylum in Russia, poll shows Americans sympathetic to NSA 'whistle-blower'". US News & World Report.
- ^ "12% See NSA Leaker Snowden As Hero, 21% As Traitor". Rasmussen Reports. June 19, 2013.
- ^ "Snowden and the NSA - November 2013". The Washington Post. November 20, 2013.
- ^ "Obama's NSA Speech Has Little Impact on Skeptical Public". Pew Research Center. January 20, 2014.
{{cite journal}}
: Cite journal requires|journal=
(help) - ^ "Poll Results: Snowden". YouGov. January 22, 2014.
- ^ "Poll: Most think Edward Snowden should stand trial in U.S." CBS News. January 22, 2014.
- ^ "January 2014 NBC News/Wall Street Journal Survey" (PDF). MSNBC. January 22–25, 2014.
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: CS1 maint: date format (link) - ^ "Poll Results: Snowden". YouGov. March 28, 2014.