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AndyTheGrump (talk | contribs) →Ethnicity in infobox: answer the questions, or troll elsewhere |
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::::::You make referrence to my supposed [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Ed_Miliband&diff=432016827&oldid=432011594 ''"obnoxious behaviour."''] Do you not notice that I do not speak to you in deriding terms? You need not characterize my suggestions [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Ed_Miliband&diff=432016827&oldid=432011594 ''"nonsense".''] We can safely assume we are two people of normal intelligence. Neither of us is speaking ''nonsense.'' [[User:Bus stop|Bus stop]] ([[User talk:Bus stop|talk]]) 16:12, 1 June 2011 (UTC) |
::::::You make referrence to my supposed [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Ed_Miliband&diff=432016827&oldid=432011594 ''"obnoxious behaviour."''] Do you not notice that I do not speak to you in deriding terms? You need not characterize my suggestions [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Ed_Miliband&diff=432016827&oldid=432011594 ''"nonsense".''] We can safely assume we are two people of normal intelligence. Neither of us is speaking ''nonsense.'' [[User:Bus stop|Bus stop]] ([[User talk:Bus stop|talk]]) 16:12, 1 June 2011 (UTC) |
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:::::::So yet again, you refuse to explain where this term "religious identity" came from, and instead come up with a link to NRDB which asserts (without evidence) that Miliband is Jewish by religion. Do you really think garbage like this can be a 'reliable souce'? '''It isn't.''' Now answer the questions I've repeatedly asked or '''fuck off and troll elsewhere''' (and no, I have no reason to assume you are of 'normal intelligence' - quite to the contrary). [[User:AndyTheGrump|AndyTheGrump]] ([[User talk:AndyTheGrump|talk]]) 16:21, 1 June 2011 (UTC) |
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Personal Life info
Not sure if this the place to point it out, but it keeps getting edited - Miliband and Thornton were enaged in March of 2010, not March 2011. It's mentioned in the Doncaster interview, and quite a few articles - they only publically declared their engagement in 2011. This keeps getting changed, possibly becasue it's assumed to be a typo? 86.135.162.73 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 11:30, 4 April 2011 (UTC).
- If the sources in the article support the earlier date, and the sources are reliable, then the earlier date should be supported. If there are no sources, then feel free to add some!--Topperfalkon (talk) 21:34, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
Ethnicity in infobox
Can AndytheGrump explain why he is trying to remove Miliband's ethnicity from the infobox? His edit states there is some sort of consensus regarding this, but I only see a discussion in the archives regarding Categories, and no consensus even there. This would also be relevant:
- "Obviously I'm Jewish, it is part of my identity, but not in a religious sense". "Ed Miliband reveals agenda for power with Labour... and a personal insight", Evening Standard, 31 August 2010.
- "My Jewish identity was such a substantial part of my upbringing that it informs what I am". "Ed Miliband: Hamas, Ken Livingstone and Jewish values", The Jewish Chronicle, November 4, 2010.
Jayjg (talk) 03:26, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
- Firstly, it's inaccurate as it makes the attempt to label him as claiming only Jewish ethnicity. Secondly, there is no WP:RS source here. We had a lengthy discussion about this that included administrator intervention on more than one occasion. Yes, the consensus applied to what was in the cats at the time, but this is no more than an attempt to plant exactly the same thing, with no clarification, to the infobox. I'm removing again as per consensus. I will seek admin arbitration if this matter is forced again. We spent a good month or so discussing this back then and I don't see that anything has changed.--Topperfalkon (talk) 21:25, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
- First, it's accurate, as he claims no other ethnicity. Second, there are at least two WP:RS cited above. Third, Categories are different from other article items precisely because Category items cannot be annotated, qualified or cited in any way. Fourth, there was no consensus even then, you merely outlasted those citing sources and policy. Unless you can come up with an actual consensus for removing this properly cited and accurate infobox item, I will restore it, despite your threats regarding arbitration. Jayjg (talk) 00:10, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
- What about his Polish ethnicity? Are you going to make the claim based on one biased source and one non-explicit source that his Jewishness takes precedent to the other ethnic affiliations he can claim? The decision made in the last discussion regarding this was to leave out anything that would misleadingly put Ed in a particular 'box'. This was done in the face of a compromise I suggested that would have clarified Ed's Jewish ethnicity by simultaneously addressing his religious views, which was rejected. Part of the reason for this rejection was because neither inclusion of specific ethnic affiliation or religious beliefs in either infobox or categories added anything of significant worth to the article. It was also clearly leading to some confusion and dispute amongst editors. You were part of this discussion at the time, unless I am mistaken.
I don't think your minor change in the approach to the addition of what is essentially the same as Category: British people of Jewish descent is going to be any more pleasing to other editors than that category was back then. So please just drop this.Or better yet, ask Ed Miliband in an interview that can be considered a reliable source to decisively state what he claims his ethnicity to be (as per the 2011 census for instance). In fact, ask him to publish his census form. Can't do better than that.--Topperfalkon (talk) 00:31, 27 May 2011 (UTC) - Actually, apparently someone added that category back in... Hmm.--Topperfalkon (talk) 00:34, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
- He's not an ethnic Pole and never was, nor has he described himself as such, nor are there any sources that describe him that way. Ethnic Jews living in Poland were ethnic Jews, not ethnic Poles. Your statements indicate a fundamental misunderstanding of ethnicity (particularly Jewish).
- The sources themselves are an expert source and a completely explicit source. Both satisfy WP:RS. It is critical that you make more accurate Talk: page statements.
- The discussion last time was about Categories, not infobox parameters, and there was no "decision" per se; you and a couple of others merely wore everyone else down by dint of constant repetition.
- If you object to the infobox having the "ethnicity" parameter, then you should get it removed from the infobox template, rather than trying to extremely selectively trying to remove it from one article.
- Of course we can "do better" than having him "publish his census form"; we can follow policy and report what he has explicitly and clearly stated.
- Jayjg (talk) 00:49, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
- Erm, no. Your statements indicate a fundamental misunderstanding of ethnicity, Jayjg. It is self-ascribed (by definition, otherwise it isn't 'ethnicity'), and if someone were to describe their ethnicity as Polish-Jewish, it would be entirely valid (see the UK Census 2011 for some good examples of self-asserted 'ethnicities': 'Asian British', 'Black Scottish' etc). AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:17, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
- Erm, no. Your statements indicate a fundamental misunderstanding of Jewish ethnicity, AndyTheGrump. Ethnicity may be somewhat of a cultural construct, but up until World War II (and indeed in some ways afterwards), Poles and Jews were generally peoples who had different places of origin, different languages, different religions, different foods, different cultures. And we have something much better than a UK Census; we have Miliband's own self-identification, in reliable secondary sources. Hypothesizing that he might want to claim some other ethnicity is, frankly, irrelevant to this discussion; we go by what he's actually said, not by what he might theoretically claim, according to an anonymous Wikipedia editor. Jayjg (talk) 22:42, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
- Erm, no. Your statements indicate a fundamental misunderstanding of ethnicity, Jayjg. It is self-ascribed (by definition, otherwise it isn't 'ethnicity'), and if someone were to describe their ethnicity as Polish-Jewish, it would be entirely valid (see the UK Census 2011 for some good examples of self-asserted 'ethnicities': 'Asian British', 'Black Scottish' etc). AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:17, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
- In regards to the post that jumped in before I could revise my comment...
- Ok, so maybe I'm not an expert on ethnicity, but given these concerns weren't addressed last time, it is remiss of you to not address that prior to making these edits. I am not the only editor that hasn't forgotten about the previous discussion.
- Are you not going to address what is at least my perception of bias with one of your sources? I also thought that bias with that source was a factor in the dispute previously.
- According to prior discussion, which I have linked below, it was made clear that policy regarding Categories applies to the infobox also, and there's no reason why it shouldn't either. Furthermore, you cannot wholly pin the resolution of that discussion down to me or those sharing my views. A group of editors sharing your views were responsible for inflaming that dispute in the first place, by insisting that false information be put in the infobox under the religion= parameter rather than the outright removal of the parameter which had by that point already been agreed as a resolution. Also in the prior discussion, it is clear that the disputed info was removed because neither Ed's ethnicity nor his religion is a factor in what makes him notable. The case that his ethnicity was a factor was made but found lacking at the time.
- I do not outright object to its inclusion, but it's clear that fields and categories making bold categorisations are inevitably going to provide more editorial disputes than they provide encyclopaedic content. I have no objection to Ed's ethnicity being mentioned in the main text, as long as it is in the context of the source (and that the source can be believed to have extracted said information in proper context originally). I class religious beliefs and ethnicity among the things that I would not trust to bold categorisation. But I don't outright object to their inclusion to an extent that I would make the case for their removal. I would also, personally, get rid of large swathes of BLP categories too, but that's not an argument I have the time or energy to indulge in.
- Would a census form not be more fulfilling of policy? It's a reliable source that removes the context from the equation specifically to better allow categorisation.
- Anyway, I'm going to make this a whole lot simpler and refer you to the Talk:Ed Miliband/Archive 2#Category:British Jews, specifically the end of that section. Please tell me what has changed since that discussion. Because I am taking said discussion as the basis for a working consensus that was provided at the time the previous dispute occurred.--Topperfalkon (talk) 01:24, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
- These concerns were addressed last time.
- A claim that there is a consensus regarding the infobox is not a reality; again, there was no consensus in that discussion, but you (and AndytheGrump and a couple of others) simply wore down and outlasted everyone else.
- If you don't like the infobox parameters (or categories) then deal with that issue. I'd be fine with them disappearing altogether too, but I won't abide selective removal of them, particularly when doing so directly contradicts the statements of the subject themselves.
- No, a census form is a WP:PRIMARY document, and a private one, and it only allows for the categorizations that the census form makers think up. It's no-where near as good as the reliable secondary sources we have.
- That discussion was regarding a category, didn't accord with policy or practice, and was merely the echo chamber of those who outlasted everyone else. Jayjg (talk) 22:42, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
- We have from Miliband that he is Jewish. He says, "“Obviously I'm Jewish, it is part of my identity, but not in a religious sense." I think the Infbox should not be making us decide between "Ethnicity: Jewish" and "Religion: Jewish". There should be a third possibility. A field should be created for "Religious identity". This should satisfy those trying to emphasize that Miliband is nonobservant as well as those trying to emphasize that Miliband is Jewish.
- What about his Polish ethnicity? Are you going to make the claim based on one biased source and one non-explicit source that his Jewishness takes precedent to the other ethnic affiliations he can claim? The decision made in the last discussion regarding this was to leave out anything that would misleadingly put Ed in a particular 'box'. This was done in the face of a compromise I suggested that would have clarified Ed's Jewish ethnicity by simultaneously addressing his religious views, which was rejected. Part of the reason for this rejection was because neither inclusion of specific ethnic affiliation or religious beliefs in either infobox or categories added anything of significant worth to the article. It was also clearly leading to some confusion and dispute amongst editors. You were part of this discussion at the time, unless I am mistaken.
- First, it's accurate, as he claims no other ethnicity. Second, there are at least two WP:RS cited above. Third, Categories are different from other article items precisely because Category items cannot be annotated, qualified or cited in any way. Fourth, there was no consensus even then, you merely outlasted those citing sources and policy. Unless you can come up with an actual consensus for removing this properly cited and accurate infobox item, I will restore it, despite your threats regarding arbitration. Jayjg (talk) 00:10, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
- Perhaps instead, "those trying to emphasize that Miliband is Jewish" should read WP:BLP, WP:NPOV etc, and take their 'emphasizing' elsewhere. In the arena where Miliband derives his notability - UK domestic politics - his ethnicity is almost entirely a non-issue. Only the usual crowd of ethno-boosters, and the occasional drive-by antisemite, seem to be overly concerned over this, and it would be a darned sight better if they all took their dubious opinions elsewhere. We don't need more fields in infoboxes, we need less arbitrary classification by POV-pushers. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:10, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
- AndyTheGrump—I don't think it should matter whether Miliband's notability is related to his being Jewish, but it is not my opinion which matters, but rather that of reliable sources, many of which indicate that Miliband's Jewish identity is worthy of noting. What you are calling "arbitrary" ("we need less arbitrary classification") reliable sources are considering noteworthy. Bus stop (talk) 03:16, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
Bus stop, will you please stop making endless edits to your posts - it makes replying without edit conflicts practically impossible.
I have nothing further to say to you in any case. You are here solely to push your usual 'Jew-tagging' agenda, as I think is blatently obvious to even a casual observer. As far as I am concerned, you are a real liability to the Wikipedia project, and should have been banned a long time ago. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:29, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
- AndyTheGrump—you say that you have nothing further to say to me but at the same time you utilize a phrase like "Jew-tagging" in reference to me. Do you think I should not respond to that? You speak of "'Jew-tagging'". In your understanding is there a legitimate noting of Jewish identity in an article in which the subject of the BLP has stated that he is Jewish? Bus stop (talk) 03:39, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
- Go boil your head... AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:43, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
- Bus stop, please respond to my comment at 01:24, 27 May 2011 (UTC) or don't bother pursuing this argument any further. I am now of the opinion that Wikipedians clearly cannot be trusted with making such sweeping categorisations of BLPs. I think I will take this case up to higher levels over the weekend, but I honestly don't want to waste more of my time on this.--Topperfalkon (talk) 12:09, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
- Go boil your head... AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:43, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
- I think the comments -- and support for the comments -- to the effect that the subject's ethnicity should be reflected are far stronger than the counter-arguments. Though I was almost swayed by the "go boil your head" response. It is appropriate to reflect that he is Jewish.--Epeefleche (talk) 16:44, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
- Jayjg asked me to comment. It seems to me, based on cited sources, that Miliband considers himself Jewish, and that belongs in the article. As for "Polish Jewish", that is more of a sub-ethnicity of Jewish than part of Polish ethnicity. I've never heard of a Pole who considers Polish Jews to be ethnic Poles. And certainly there are sub-ethnicities within Jews, even within Ashkenazim, but I think that is generally hair-splitting that few except we Jews are ever concerned with.
As for "Jew-tagging": I don't think I'm generally guilty of any such thing, but it seems to me that in any nation-state (or, in the case of the UK, multi-nation state: England, Scotland, Wales, and part of Ireland) it is notable when a prominent political figure has an ethnicity other than the one primarily identified with that state. - Jmabel | Talk 21:25, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
- Jayjg asked me to comment. It seems to me, based on cited sources, that Miliband considers himself Jewish, and that belongs in the article. As for "Polish Jewish", that is more of a sub-ethnicity of Jewish than part of Polish ethnicity. I've never heard of a Pole who considers Polish Jews to be ethnic Poles. And certainly there are sub-ethnicities within Jews, even within Ashkenazim, but I think that is generally hair-splitting that few except we Jews are ever concerned with.
- What you think is hardly relevant. The British people don't seem to consider it notable. Or have you got evidence from a reliable source that they do? Given the evident lack of coverage of the issue, I think that will be hard to find. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:35, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
- What the editors on this page think is, in fact, somewhat relevant. It reflects what the consensus view is. And consensus is, perhaps, of some moment.--Epeefleche (talk) 22:00, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
- Wrong. You cannot overrule policy by 'consensus', particularly when the 'consensus' seems to have been drummed up by editors asking others "to comment". And can I remind people that the issue is whether Miliband's ethnicity should be mentioned in the infobox. The article body text makes clear his background, beliefs etc in what seems a reasonable manner. What has been objected to is placing "ethnicity: Jewish" in the infobox, on the simple basis that it places undue weight on something that is of no significance to his career in politics. This is the key issue. Miliband makes little of his ethnicity, at least in public. The British people do likewise. The only people that seem particularly interested in this issue are a faction of Wikipedia editors, several of whom are seemingly intent on tagging everyone they can find with any Jewish connections (or almost everyone, though I'll refrain from pointing out a recent case where an exception seems to have been made, as I think most of the 'faction' would disassociate themselves from that particular episode). To give any weight to a 'consensus' constructed largely from this faction would be a breach of a key Wikipedia policy: WP:NPOV. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:14, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
- Wrong. You cannot invent policy by personal fiat, particularly when many of those inventing policy appear to be unaware of actual policy, and completely in the dark regarding the subject at hand, Jewish ethnicity. A spurious appeal to authority of "the British people" carries no weight when it comes to discussions regarding the content of Wikipedia articles. The only people that seem particularly interested in this issue are a faction of Wikipedia editors, several of whom are seemingly intent on removing everyone they can find with any Jewish connections. To give any weight to a 'consensus' constructed largely from this faction would be a breach of a key Wikipedia policy: WP:NPOV. Jayjg (talk) 22:42, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
- The suggestion that I am "seemingly intent on removing everyone [I] can find with any Jewish connections" is a gross slur. It is self-evident that I am attempting nothing of the sort, and am instead 'intent' on seeing Wikipedia treat people equally, regardless of their (supposed) ethnicity. I suggest you withdraw this serious breach of WP:NPA immediately. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:44, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
- Andy -- the consensus as to what NPOV policy requires here is at odds with your personal point of view, and the consensus as to policy trumps your POV. As to your seeming intent -- that's perhaps a discussion more appropriate for another forum; I'm not familiar enough with your edits--but I think for this discussion we can avoid going there.--Epeefleche (talk) 07:23, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
- A gross slur? Certainly less of a gross slur than the claim that there is a "faction" here at this page that is "seemingly intent on tagging everyone they can find with any Jewish connections". In the future a) Comment on content, not on the contributor (note, that's directly from WP:NPA, b) if you do make personal comments, at least make sure they're accurate, not false, and c) name names, so your innuendos can be dealt with appropriately. Jayjg (talk) 02:45, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
- The suggestion that I am "seemingly intent on removing everyone [I] can find with any Jewish connections" is a gross slur. It is self-evident that I am attempting nothing of the sort, and am instead 'intent' on seeing Wikipedia treat people equally, regardless of their (supposed) ethnicity. I suggest you withdraw this serious breach of WP:NPA immediately. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:44, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
- And by the way, in the future, if you want your arguments to carry any weight, please make non-spurious arguments; that means discussing sources and policy, not your theories about "the British people", or claiming you somehow have the inside track on actual policy and are the only one following it, or adding various ad hominem and wildly inaccurate screeds about other editors and mythical "factions". Your arguments would also improve (and be taken more seriously) if you stopped telling people to boil their heads. Jayjg (talk) 22:42, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
- So nobody is going to come up with any evidence that Miliband's ethnicity is notable to anyone but this
factionentirely conicidental confluence of contributors? AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:44, 27 May 2011 (UTC) - It seems to me he is "non-observant Jewish", not Polish jewish. Kittybrewster ☎ 22:58, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
- The two are not mutually exclusive. Then again, neither would be notable unless demonstrated to be so by reliable sources. There is little doubt that Miliband considers himself ethnically Jewish (amongst other things), that isn't the issue. This discussion is supposed to be about whether it it is appropriate to include this in an infobox. I note that neither Diane Abbott nor Khalid Mahmood to pick a couple of random examples from the (sadly small) number of 'minority ethnicity' MPs have this dubious distinction. Can anyone explain where exactly this is justified in policy? AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:13, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
- So nobody is going to come up with any evidence that Miliband's ethnicity is notable to anyone but this
- Wrong. You cannot invent policy by personal fiat, particularly when many of those inventing policy appear to be unaware of actual policy, and completely in the dark regarding the subject at hand, Jewish ethnicity. A spurious appeal to authority of "the British people" carries no weight when it comes to discussions regarding the content of Wikipedia articles. The only people that seem particularly interested in this issue are a faction of Wikipedia editors, several of whom are seemingly intent on removing everyone they can find with any Jewish connections. To give any weight to a 'consensus' constructed largely from this faction would be a breach of a key Wikipedia policy: WP:NPOV. Jayjg (talk) 22:42, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
- Wrong. You cannot overrule policy by 'consensus', particularly when the 'consensus' seems to have been drummed up by editors asking others "to comment". And can I remind people that the issue is whether Miliband's ethnicity should be mentioned in the infobox. The article body text makes clear his background, beliefs etc in what seems a reasonable manner. What has been objected to is placing "ethnicity: Jewish" in the infobox, on the simple basis that it places undue weight on something that is of no significance to his career in politics. This is the key issue. Miliband makes little of his ethnicity, at least in public. The British people do likewise. The only people that seem particularly interested in this issue are a faction of Wikipedia editors, several of whom are seemingly intent on tagging everyone they can find with any Jewish connections (or almost everyone, though I'll refrain from pointing out a recent case where an exception seems to have been made, as I think most of the 'faction' would disassociate themselves from that particular episode). To give any weight to a 'consensus' constructed largely from this faction would be a breach of a key Wikipedia policy: WP:NPOV. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:14, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
- What the editors on this page think is, in fact, somewhat relevant. It reflects what the consensus view is. And consensus is, perhaps, of some moment.--Epeefleche (talk) 22:00, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
- What you think is hardly relevant. The British people don't seem to consider it notable. Or have you got evidence from a reliable source that they do? Given the evident lack of coverage of the issue, I think that will be hard to find. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:35, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
<Miliband's Ethnicity is of no interest to me but it has been a feature of comment in many WP:RSs for example The Independent [1], the Jewish Chronicle [2] and The Scotsman [3] so I guess we should have it in. NBeale (talk) 06:27, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
- The Independant article is clearly not about Miliband's ethnicity as such. The Jewish Chronicle merely notes that he is Jewish, but makes no other comment on the significance of his ethnicity. The Scotsman article uses the word 'Jewish' precisely once - in the headline. I think these three articles actually support my argument - that Miliband's ethnicity is of little or no consequence to his political career. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:15, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
- The Independent is completely clear about his ethnicity. Where does it state in policy that the ethnicity parameter can be used in an infobox only if a Wikipedia editor believes it is "consequence to his political career"? Let's also keep in mind that, as opposed to anonymous Wikipedia editor AndyTheGrump's view of its importance, Miliband himself states "My Jewish identity was such a substantial part of my upbringing that it informs what I am". Jayjg (talk) 02:45, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, it is entirely possible for an 'anonymous Wikipedia editor' to cherry-pick quotes to prove a point, and for other anons to form a 'consensus'. The fact is however that there is no evidence that Miliband's ethnicity is of any more relevance than that of any other British politician. Unless a cogent reason can be given why Wikipedia should consider it to have such significance, to include it would be unjustifiable. So how about some arguments that actually address the issue: why should Miliband be treated differently? AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:23, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
- Well, no evidence except for Miliband's own words. Now, where did it state in policy that the "ethnicity" parameter could not be used on infoboxes for politicians in general and/or Miliband in particular? That is the issue of "being treated differently" you need to address. Jayjg (talk) 03:12, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, it is entirely possible for an 'anonymous Wikipedia editor' to cherry-pick quotes to prove a point, and for other anons to form a 'consensus'. The fact is however that there is no evidence that Miliband's ethnicity is of any more relevance than that of any other British politician. Unless a cogent reason can be given why Wikipedia should consider it to have such significance, to include it would be unjustifiable. So how about some arguments that actually address the issue: why should Miliband be treated differently? AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:23, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
- The Independent is completely clear about his ethnicity. Where does it state in policy that the ethnicity parameter can be used in an infobox only if a Wikipedia editor believes it is "consequence to his political career"? Let's also keep in mind that, as opposed to anonymous Wikipedia editor AndyTheGrump's view of its importance, Miliband himself states "My Jewish identity was such a substantial part of my upbringing that it informs what I am". Jayjg (talk) 02:45, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
Wow, Andy, so now I'm part of a cabal? I presume (though he didn't say anything other than that there was a discussion that might interest me) that Jayjg turned to me for my opinion because I started Wikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic Groups and because I've probably done as much as any one person to propose policy in this area, not because he presumed I would agree with him. It's true that over the years of discussions where we both been involved, I do agree with him more often than not, but presumably that would be the case for almost any pair of long-term contributors, or we would never have anything like consensus here! He and I have certainly had our disagreements (including on Jewish-related topics), some of them a bit strenuous. - Jmabel | Talk 06:25, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
- I haven't edited for a long time but came across this discussion and thought I'd contribute. I personally dislike these infoboxes, which seem like Top Trumps cards with a varying selection of trivia. However, a cursory inspection shows Cameron, Brown and Blair don't have ethnicity infoboxed. The notion it must (and only) be included when "an ethnicity other than the one primarily identified with that state" seems wrong to me (surely infoboxes should be standard) but even accepting the presmise, the infoboxes don't mention the Jewish or part-Jewish ethnicity of Howard, Mandelson, Letwin, Sugar, Silkin, Joseph, Disraeli; for other minority ethnicities, Abbott and Mahmood were mentioned, I'll add Sadiq Khan, Scotland, Warsi. Outside the UK, Obama and Sarkozy don't have their minority or mixed ethnicities infoboxed.
- It's not usual to include it in the infobox and I can't see a reason to here. I worry it might actually be distorting - Miliband talks about "Jewish identity" not "Jewish ethnicity", I'm not certain he sees Jewishness the way a simple "Ethnicity: Jewish" might imply. And there's an issue of whether "Jewish" is enough (he specifically talks of "Polish Jewish", though his father was born and raised in Belgium). I find the idea infoboxes must note ethnicities other than a theoretical primary, unsustainable. If we aim to show minority ethnicites are noteworthy in UK politics, we're relying on readers to notice it's only in some boxes and deduce that reason. Are Cameron, Brown and Blair the same ethnicity - and what is it? Should Bevan's infobox list "Ethnicity: Celtic"? (I can provide quotes showing how important Celtic identity was to him.)
- Finally, JayG said "If you object to the infobox having the ethnicity parameter, then you should get it removed from the infobox template". There's an inconsistency in the relevant template - ethnicity is in the code but is not listed in the documentation (unlike nationality and religion). Its inclusion was never discussed. After an exhaustive search, I find this edit added the parameter to this article. These two edits first added infoboxes, and didn't include that parameter: 1, 2. I cannot remember ever seeing an infobox that includes ethnicity - religion is in some and not others (and that's annoying), but I've not seen ethnicity. I'm not saying there aren't any out there, but it seems to me it would extremely selective to include it in this one article. Sorry this is such a long comment. -- Gregg (talk) 11:02, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
- With regard to the question of whether the relevant infobox should have an 'ethnicity' field, I can see nothing in Wikipedia:Manual of Style (infoboxes) to justify it. On the contrary, it states that "the purpose of an infobox: to summarize key facts about the article in which it appears". Given that the field seems to be seldom used, it cannot possibly be a 'key fact', unless specific evidence can be provided that indicates otherwise. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:38, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
- There is no such thing as a "Jew-tagging agenda" as an editor can add content to articles in his area of interest whatever his area of interest may be so long as his addition of content is compliant with policy and consensus. Normal editing of Wikipedia is not called an agenda. Bus stop (talk) 14:07, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
- I have also observed your "Jew-tagging agenda" so it clearly exists. It's not normal editing since you continue to argue about it interminably after consensus against doing it has been clearly established on multiple occasions. Being against consensus, it's no longer normal editing. You know this, because you were in fact at one time banned for doing it. Yworo (talk) 14:15, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
- Yworo—you say, "You know this, because you were in fact at one time banned for doing it." This is not 100% true. Indeed I was banned. I believe the ban ran for approximately a year—a long time. But I was not banned for the reasons you are citing. You have been reminding the community repeatedly that I have been banned. Do I need to bring "diffs" to to show your repeated efforts to diminish me in the eyes of the Wikipedia community by repeatedly pointing out that I have experienced a lengthy ban of my editing privileges? You have even tried to get that ban reinstated, as seen here. Your constant reminding the community that I have been banned is problematic. You are presenting incorrect information to others concerning me. Even if it were correct information, it would be out of place: "Comment on content, not on the contributor..." Also try to avoid spreading incorrect information as that only compounds the problem. Bus stop (talk) 14:43, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
- This is out of line. In point of fact I am responding to something said in this very section. It most certainly is not "Jew-tagging" when one inserts "Jewish" in an Infobox. I am permitted to respond in the same section that that incorrect characterization is made. Bus stop (talk) 15:23, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
- It does help make it clear that you're cruising for a topic ban at the very least. Your incessant argumentation on the topic is taking up too much time on the part of other editors, and that's all it takes for a community ban, really. IMO you are skating on very thin ice. Yworo (talk) 15:25, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
- I have suggested above and I will suggest again—in the instance of Jews—both observant and nonobservant—the field should read "Religious identity". This covers the gamut from Orthodox to secular.
- We should not be making this choice between "Ethnicity" and "Religion" concerning a field in an Infobox. As WP:BLPCAT says, "Category names do not carry disclaimers or modifiers, so the case for each category must be made clear by the article text and its reliable sources." Translation: the reader has to read the article. Category names and Infobox fields are not expected to be precise. Fields in Infoboxes should be formulated to take in a wide-enough area of applicability to be reasonably accurate, but for more precise details a reader is expected to read the article.
- No source has been brought by any editor supporting an "argument" that Miliband might not be Jewish. Translation: We do not have sources contradicting one another on the point of whether Miliband is Jewish.
- We see the same illogic here, where no sources whatsoever are brought by you or by anyone else arguing your point of view yet the pseudo-argument is made that we can't even say in the body of an article that a person is Jewish. The body of the article of course is not even subject to the more stringent restrictions of WP:BLPCAT.
- The sources presented above are way more than enough to support an indication of Jewishness in the Infobox. The sources are saying in no uncertain terms that Miliband is Jewish.
- None of those sources nor any other source I've seen in relation to Miliband uses the term "ethnicity". Furthermore Jewish is defined as being Jewish by birth or Jewish by conversion, therefore even "The Independent" article is at the very least suggesting that Miliband is Jewish. The "Jewish Chronicle" article and "The Scotsman" article both state pointedly that Miliband is Jewish.
- You are arguing that sources don't "comment on the significance of his ethnicity." As previously stated—they do not even make any reference to "ethnicity". Furthermore "the significance" of Miliband being Jewish is evidenced by the mere mention of this in reliable sources. You are arguing that "Miliband's ethnicity is of little or no consequence to his political career." Again—you are introducing terms not found in sources. As concerns the "consequence to his political career"—this is not for you to determine. We defer to reliable sources to provide us with guidance as to what is "of little or no consequence to his political career." You should not even be attempting to override what reliable sources think is of "significance" and of "consequence". Reliable sources are showing us that they think that the fact that Miliband is Jewish, and presently holds the position of Leader of the Labour Party and Leader of the Opposition, is a noteworthy fact. Bus stop (talk) 15:28, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
- Bus stop, I'm not interested in your blather. You are wrong. You are also disruptive. Go away. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:05, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
- Andy -- I think that Bus is trying to communicate with you. I've not problem with your indicating that you think he is wrong, and no doubt if your reasons are convincing the consensus will be in agreement with you. But calling his thoughts "blather" are not perhaps within what is contemplated by wp's civility guidelines, and telling him to go away could be viewed by some as perhaps being something short of civil as well. Please energetically disagree with him if you think he is wrong. But I fear that incivility will distract readers from the points you are seeking to make. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 23:05, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
- On the other hand, it's an improvement on Andy previously telling Bus stop to "go boil your head". Jayjg (talk) 03:12, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
- I see no evidence that Bus stop is trying to communicate with me. Communication is a two way process. What Bus stop is doing isn't communication, it is lecturing. Unfortunately, his 'lectures' are based on a fundamentally false premise - that Wikipedia articles are nothing more than a collection of random 'facts' found in 'reliable sources' and that if he finds one, that is justification enough to include it. On its own, this would be nonsense, but easily dismissed. However, he doesn't actually look for random facts, but instead for very specific ones - assertions that person X or Y is Jewish. To him the context is irrelevant, as is exactly what 'Jewish' means in the particular instance: actually, the less-well defined it is the more it suits his ends, as he can the Wikilawyer his way around any objections more easily. This isn't behaviour conducive towards encouraging cooperative editing, and nor is it 'neutral'. He is attempting to spin Wikipedia for his own ends (whatever they are - I'm not sure he actually knows himself), and in the process he is perpetuating a less-than-helpful stereotype about 'Jewishness: that it is something 'inborn' that marks a person out as 'different' and that is somehow more important than the actual characteristics of the person concerned. Such stereotyping has no place in a 21st-century encyclopaedia. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:09, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
- On the other hand, it's an improvement on Andy previously telling Bus stop to "go boil your head". Jayjg (talk) 03:12, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
- Andy -- I think that Bus is trying to communicate with you. I've not problem with your indicating that you think he is wrong, and no doubt if your reasons are convincing the consensus will be in agreement with you. But calling his thoughts "blather" are not perhaps within what is contemplated by wp's civility guidelines, and telling him to go away could be viewed by some as perhaps being something short of civil as well. Please energetically disagree with him if you think he is wrong. But I fear that incivility will distract readers from the points you are seeking to make. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 23:05, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
- Bus stop, I'm not interested in your blather. You are wrong. You are also disruptive. Go away. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:05, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
AndyTheGrump—you say, "Such stereotyping has no place in a 21st-century encyclopedia."
How is it "stereotyping" to say that someone is Jewish? I think you are misusing the basic meaning of the word stereotyping. "Jewish" is an attribute of identity. Reliable sources are fully supportive of the fact that Miliband is Jewish. There is no stereotyping when we are supplying the reader with the reliably sourced information that an attribute of identity is applicable to the subject of a biography.
You seem to be also requiring "context" as well as a fine-tuning of an individual's Jewishness. In fact these are not requirements at all. A requirement is that we adhere to what is presented by good quality sources. You say, "To him the context is irrelevant, as is exactly what 'Jewish' means in the particular instance…"
What would "context" be? Can you please tell me what sort of context you think should be required beyond noting that an individual is Jewish? If there were some sources saying that the individual were not Jewish then we would have a situation requiring either special treatment or omission. But when all sources say the same thing—that the individual is Jewish—what further "context" would be required? I am not saying that one cannot elaborate on the topic if other reliably sourced information is available, but there is no necessity, or requirement, that additional information must accompany the noting that the individual is Jewish. The fact that someone is Jewish warrants mentioning. Reliable sources make note of the fact that Ed Miliband is Jewish. In my opinion the field in which to mention this in the Infobox should read: "Religious identity". That terminology includes those Jews, such as Ed Miliband, who are nonobservant.
The second half of your above-quoted sentence reads, "…as is exactly what 'Jewish' means in the particular instance…"
We do not need to know whether an individual is observant, nonobservant, or in-between. In the instance that sources shed light on level of observance—that can be included. But if no reliably sourced information is available about level of observance, we are still permitted to note simply that the person is Jewish. Wikipedia is never finished. If such information becomes available at a future time, it can be added. Bus stop (talk) 10:53, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
- Bus stop, thank you for providing such clear evidence that my observations regarding your relentless behaviour are correct. And no, 'Jewish' is not "an aspect of identity". Or can you find a 'reliable source' that says it is? And on what basis do you claim that "we do not need to know whether an individual is observant, nonobservant, or in-between"? Why? Why then is it important that we know that a person is 'Jewish' in some undefined way at all? It isn't, unless you are obsessed with the idea that 'Jewishness' is somehow 'inborn' and unique, that makes Jews 'different'. If you believe that, you are stereotyping. Waffle on all you like about 'sources', but the fact is that you are obsessed with turning Wikipedia into an ethno-religious database, and will come out with the most ridiculous pretexts to do so. This is disruptive, and offensive. Please take your obsessions elsewhere. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:49, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
- "Disruptive, and offensive?" AndyTheGrump—reliable sources set the precedent for the content of articles. Sources sometimes tell us that the subject of a biography is Jewish, such as in the case of Ed Miliband. Should we not pass that along to the reader? The article happens to say that "Miliband is Jewish, but not religious." I am suggesting that in the Infobox it read: "Religious identity: Jewish". Can you tell me if you find that suggestion reasonable? If not, why not? Bus stop (talk) 13:34, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
- Give over Bus stop this really is obsessive and disruptive - Milliband is closer to an atheist than a religious Jew - he is British - his genetic history has Jews in it. He has never been in a synagogue. He is a British person with some Jews in his genetic history. Leave him alone. Off2riorob (talk) 13:40, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
- Bus stop, Wikipedia is not in the business of publishing lies to suit your agenda. Miliband does not have a Jewish "religious identity" - he has clearly stated that he doesn't believe in God. And where did this "religious identity" phrase come from anyway? Can you provide a 'reliable source' that shows it isn't something you created yourself to confuse ethnicity and faith even further? AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:14, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
- AndyTheGrump—in reference to your edit summary found above, please note the wording found at WP:Edit summary:
- "Avoid inappropriate summaries. Editors should explain their edits, but not be overly critical or harsh when editing or reverting others' work. This may be perceived as uncivil, and cause tension or bad feelings, which makes collaboration more difficult. Explain what you changed, and cite the relevant policies, guidelines or principles of good writing, but try not to target or to single out others in a way that may come across as an attack or an insult."
- While the above applies primarily to Article pages I think it makes sense to consider it in relation to this Talk page edit summary as well. We can disagree without being disagreeable. Your edit summaries are commenting on me as an editor, as additionally seen here and here—from 24 hours ago on this same Talk page. Bus stop (talk) 14:42, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
- And this is another example of your obnoxious behaviour. whenever you can't answer a question, you start dragging up other issues to hide the fact. If you don't like my comments about you, raise this in the appropriate place. Now tell me where this "religious identity" nonsense came from, and why it wouldn't be an outright lie to describe Miliband as having a Jewish one. And if you cant answer these simple questions, I will have to assume that you are only here to disrupt the discussion, and act accordingly. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:49, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
- AndyTheGrump—I think this is a source which would suggest that the Infobox should read "Religion: Jewish". I assume you disagree with the language found at that source. If you disagree with the language found at that source, can you tell me why you think they chose to use the language they did?
- You make referrence to my supposed "obnoxious behaviour." Do you not notice that I do not speak to you in deriding terms? You need not characterize my suggestions "nonsense". We can safely assume we are two people of normal intelligence. Neither of us is speaking nonsense. Bus stop (talk) 16:12, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
- So yet again, you refuse to explain where this term "religious identity" came from, and instead come up with a link to NRDB which asserts (without evidence) that Miliband is Jewish by religion. Do you really think garbage like this can be a 'reliable souce'? It isn't. Now answer the questions I've repeatedly asked or fuck off and troll elsewhere (and no, I have no reason to assume you are of 'normal intelligence' - quite to the contrary). AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:21, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
New section for antisemitic troll
- Extremely upsetting to see more censorship from AndyTheGrump. There is no question that Milliband is a Jew ethnically and the infobox needs to be restored. AndyTheGrump has a history of removing ethnicity from many articles, practicing his censorship. His bias is unbelievable and needs to be addressed Judenwatch (talk) 23:53, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
- See more? This is your very first edit, User:Judenwatch. Yworo (talk) 00:44, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
- First edit? I doubt it very much. I recognise this ignorance from an earlier troll. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:08, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
- User:Judenwatch has been blocked as an obvious sockpuppet. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:38, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
Balancing Ed's positive comments/spin
It's all very well quoting the subject saying Labour is "on its way back to power" (with no evidence) but we should also balance it with the facts that a pro-Labour paper is reporting (also picked up in "labour Briefing" [4] and those from a respected polling organisation. NBeale (talk) 17:11, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
Opening Section
This edit makes the article have a more concise, thorough and neater opening section. As it was before, the opening section looked quite fragmented, oversimplified in it's paragraphing and lacking in several details. I plan to redo my edit and, against my better judgement, remove reference to the election results. MWhite 21:20, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
Please allow interested users some time to comment, There is no hurry, thanks. Like what is this "Miliband has been described as a centre-left, social democratic politician." - who is doing this describing? Off2riorob (talk) 21:27, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
- In the Self-description of views section, the passage ends with 'He is generally described by observers as a left-of-centre, social democratic politician.' I also found this source, that clarified Ed's self-identification as a social democrat. If that source was used, it would mean re-wording the sentence to say 'Miliband identifies as a centre-left, social democratic politician', which would be appropriate. MWhite 21:40, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
- User talk:Mwhite148 - Not sure why there are no links to your userpage in your signature - it is quite distracting and if its not against guidelines it should be - so here is a link to it. - Off2riorob (talk) 22:02, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
(edit conflict) - I also don't support some of the other changes such as this you want to add to the lede "A descendant of Polish Jews" and this is his article not his fathers, I don't support additional details in the lede about his fathers life in the edit you are desirous of making. Your EL doesn't seem to work http://edmiliband.org/2010/07/01/a-new-social-democracy-get-involved/ here it is, I don't think his comments are a self declaration of being a social democrat politician, such nuances are better in the body of the article where they can be more easily attributer and developed. I don't like hanging labels on living subjects like that in a simplified as if stated fact. Off2riorob (talk) 21:41, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
- I agree with Rob. Per WP:LEDE, neither references to Miliband's father nor his descent from Polish Jews belong there, and the "centre-left, social democratic politician" sentence looks out of place - it belongs in the 'Policies and views' section (if it can be properly sourced) - though the section already states that he describes himself as a socialist. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:09, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
- I don't see how being a social democrat is a 'label' if it's stated that he is merely regarded as such. If it had just bluntly stated 'He is a social democratic, centre-left politician', I would understand you. His ethnicity is something, from what I can understand, that many people are confused/curious about, so it being in the lead section would be of use to the casual reader. With regards to his father and brother, both are well-known (to different extents, I concede) people who should be referenced in the opening section as being relations to Ed. In response to your comment on my talkpage, my signature's something that's annoyed me for a long time now and I've tried many things to sort it, but none of them have worked. If you've got any suggestions, I would appreciate them. I must extend my apologies, as I will not be able to continue this discussion any more tonight (or today - wherever you happen to be), and I will not see your reply until sometime tomorrow. Mwhite148 22:15, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
- No worries - tomorrow it is. Off2riorob (talk) 22:19, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
- I don't see how being a social democrat is a 'label' if it's stated that he is merely regarded as such. If it had just bluntly stated 'He is a social democratic, centre-left politician', I would understand you. His ethnicity is something, from what I can understand, that many people are confused/curious about, so it being in the lead section would be of use to the casual reader. With regards to his father and brother, both are well-known (to different extents, I concede) people who should be referenced in the opening section as being relations to Ed. In response to your comment on my talkpage, my signature's something that's annoyed me for a long time now and I've tried many things to sort it, but none of them have worked. If you've got any suggestions, I would appreciate them. I must extend my apologies, as I will not be able to continue this discussion any more tonight (or today - wherever you happen to be), and I will not see your reply until sometime tomorrow. Mwhite148 22:15, 31 May 2011 (UTC)