→Mystery religion stuff: restored original post by Kecik, which mentions debates going on elsewhere, and suggests (though doesn't prove) sockpuppetry |
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Hi my name is Kecik. I have not contributed yet, but I have been an observer here. I dont have a lot of time to do the research that Giovanni has done but I want to state that I agree with including the content argued for by Giovanni and I don't like how things are being done unfair. I mean is I too can see there has been a double standard held against Giovanni. It seems the admins on here are also biased by being a Christian, and will enforce the predjudices of one side. That is a shame that this place is not NPOV, as it claims. I think this admin should recuse herself and get one that is not so close to the subject matter. Otherwise one can not expect impartiality. So that is why I wont waste my time to argue here, but want to say to count me in that the Christians here do not have the consensus either, and no im not a socket puppet. 18:14, 24 January 2006 (UTC) Kecik |
Hi my name is Kecik. I have not contributed yet, but I have been an observer here. I dont have a lot of time to do the research that Giovanni has done but I want to state that I agree with including the content argued for by Giovanni and I don't like how things are being done unfair. I mean is I too can see there has been a double standard held against Giovanni. It seems the admins on here are also biased by being a Christian, and will enforce the predjudices of one side. That is a shame that this place is not NPOV, as it claims. I think this admin should recuse herself and get one that is not so close to the subject matter. Otherwise one can not expect impartiality. So that is why I wont waste my time to argue here, but want to say to count me in that the Christians here do not have the consensus either, and no im not a socket puppet. 18:14, 24 January 2006 (UTC) Kecik |
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Constants reverts back to a stub without good cause is silly and counter productive. Contributions by Giovanni are relevant and intersting in this article. They should not be supressed without making a case here and getting our consensus first. I stuck on POV tag to show dispute, and hope to see you work with Giovanni for consensus instead of mindless reverts to a stub. This is not the Wiki way and does not promote neutrality. I note Giovanni has made his case but no one is responding, here, even. I also think he is being picked on unfairly. For example, see comment to justify reverts, "because you refuse to compromise." That is a lie, as far as I can tell. [[User:BelindaGong|BelindaGong]] 01:01, 25 January 2006 (UTC) |
Revision as of 01:01, 25 January 2006
Early Christians / Jews / Judaism
I know that many of the Early Christians practiced some degree of Judaism, but Robin klein's recent edits suggest that they were Jews in the ethnic sense, which I think is wrong. I'm not expert on this, and would appreciate if others would weigh in. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:57, Dec 19, 2004 (UTC)
== this article is redundant, the material is already covered by: James the Just and Jewish_Christians and Pauline Christianity and Apostolic_Fathers and Ante-Nicene_Fathers (anon May 2005)
- So, in short, you are saying that because there is relevant information scattered over five other articles, there would be no reason to write an article on this topic? -- Jmabel | Talk 16:10, May 29, 2005 (UTC)
"Messianic Jews"?
I disagree with this edit, but would like to hear from others. To the best of my knowledge, the term "Messianic Jews" is of 20th century origin and refers to a distinctly modern fusion of Christian belief and some elements of Jewish practice. It is doubtless modeled (well or poorly) after the Early Christians, but that doesn't make the Early Christians Messianic Jews. -- 05:28, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
- I guess technically the term is correct: they were Jews of the belief that the Messiah had turned up on planet earth. According to the Messianic Jews article, they are not Messianic Jews, seeing as these have only existed from the 1800s. Overall, that entire paragraph in the article is confusing, and I'm going to remove it until someone can explain what it means! jnothman talk 13:24, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
Confusing paragraph
I simply can't make sense of the following paragraph that was in the article (whether it should be Messianic Jews or just Jews:
- The term has an underlying connotation of many of the early Christians being Messianic Jews. The term was used by the later Graeco-Roman Christians to refers to the early followers of the Christ, at a time when what was later called as Christianity was largely a Jewish sect. The Early Christians, however, mostly referred to themselves as Nazarenes (Acts 24:5). The early Christian-Jewish heritage lingers in the Nasrani tradition in South India.
The article explains that Early Christians were in fact Jewish Christians (a much better article on a very similar subject) in the first paragraph. It then repeats the claim in the first paragraph now above, then talks about the terms for Jewish Christians (or does it? I have no idea what that second sentence is trying to say) and gives an example of a Early Jewish Christian group, surely much more relevant to Jewish Christians or Nazarenes articles. The article, after explaining the Judaism of Early Christians then lists some, notably many non-Jews (although some Jews).... Someone please clear this up before I go insane trying to read it again. jnothman talk 13:24, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
Mystery religion stuff
I removed the unsourced stuff about mystery religions (see WP:CITE)...it's a minority view with very little support among mainstream academia. I kept what was useful and placed a section stub notice on the article. I've also asked the editor who placed the material on the page (which has been hotly disputed on the Christianity article) to make a case for inclusion here in order to gain a community consensus. KHM03 19:44, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
- As is being discussed and proven on the Christian page, this is not a "view very little support among mainstream academia." This makes for a good working piece that could be developed here independently. I have sources, if requested and welcome disputes. Please also cite your sources to support your claims (such as the one being made above to suppress this information).
- Instead of simply reverting, tag it and let the discussions take place here. Im sure in the end we well all be better educated and have a fine section worthy of the best encylopedia. Thanks Giovanni33 10:33, 22 January 2006 (UTC)Gio
The views offered do have very little support in mainstream academia. This is also not "working space"...it's an article. Use a sandbox or something as working space. Some recognized authorities who refute these theories include Kenneth Latourette (A History of Christianity, Volume 1, albeit a bit dated now), Justo Gonzales {The Story of Christianity: Volume 1, A History of Christian Thought: From the Beginnings to the Council of Chalcedon, A Concise History of Christian Doctrine), Owen Chadwick (A History of Christianity), Paul Johnson (A History of Christianity), and Alister McGrath (Christianity: An Introduction, An Introduction to Christianity). There are many others, of course, but these names are known and respected as authorities within the academic field of Christian history. I won't tag inaccurate information as POV unless there's no other choice; if you wish to place these more radical, less accepted views a part of the article, you'll have to find a way to do it concisely and with respect to mainstream academic view. KHM03 11:51, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
- I dispute that your referenced authorities refute the information I presented. Can you be specific and cite your authorities that offer a specific refutation to specific claims that I make in this "radical" view? It’s only radical from the perspective of Church orthodoxy. Since this is not a religious site, but NPOV, I'd say it's rather important to get out of the Church sanctioned box, so to speak. As you know I have a lot of authorities who support the connection I assert here, but before I make that point, I'm curious to see what yours really say. Giovanni33 23:59, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
There is a mainstream view held by historians. They pretty much agree that while there are similarities between Christianity & mystery cults, the cults had nowhere near the influence you claim. There's no need to argue about this point. It's simpley the way it is; don't blame me...blame academia. Now, as in any field, you have some folks sho disagree and take any number of divergent views; that's fine. But we need to treat these more radical views which have not found as much acceptance in academia as the fringe views that they are. Mention them, also mention that the views haven't found general acceptance, and move on. That seems fair, doesn't it? I attempted to list a few historians who are generally respected in the field, and some of their works which present "mainstream" views on Christian history. The list was not exhaustive. Read or look over a few if/when you can and find out if the views you've presented are shared by these authorities. Certainly, if you know of other maistream authorities and their works, share them. Paglia, whom you've mentioned previously, obviously is not an authority (nor would she claim to be, I'd guess), so let's keep focused on those generally accepted in academia. KHM03 01:32, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
- KHM, you claiming that it is mainstream doesnt make it so. I disagree, so please provide evidence. Show me where the views of your scholars are accepted, whereas the ones I cite are not. But, more importantly, as I asked above, can you be specific and cite what your "authorities" say that constitues a specific refutation to some or all of the specific claims that I make here? You've failed to show that. You've only states that the above authors have refuted me, and thatthey are mainstream. I challenge both of these claims and ask you to prove that your claims are accurate.
- I will note, though, that the authors you cite above as acceptable ("respected in the field"), are all activist Christians. I do not make the argument that that alone means what they write is not objective but it raises the question if in your mind any scholar who is not bound by religous faith is "mainstream" and acceptable by you? Or would a secular scholar be automatically considered "radical" because they would refect a differenat bias? Also, you say we should keep focused on those generally accepted in academia, yet some of the above are not even part of academia, notably Paul Johnson, who is regarded as "pop-historian" and journalist. Contrast this to Paglia who you dismiss in the same vien and its ironic because she is at the very center of academia--a published university professor in the Humanities, a 'disciple of the Cambridge School of Anthropology,” who influenced the teaching of humanities in American academe itself, who in addition to having written five books, she continues to write articles and reviews, and scholarly journals, such as her long article, "Cults and Cosmic Consciousness: Religious Vision in the American 1960s", published in the classics and humanities journal Arion in winter 2003. In September 2005, she was named one of the "Top 100 Public Intellectuals" in the world.
- But, I did take the time to look over your list what you say are acceptable mainstream scholars, although I have not read their books, I can read editorial reviews of their works and learn a bit about the authors. Let me share you what I found.
- Kenneth Scott Latourette. Yes, he was an American academic historian, in 1884, and his works seems respectable. I note he was involved as a missionary in China to help spread Christianity. I would like you cite sections of his work that refutes what I have written, though.
- Justo Gonzales, is said to cover the materials in a more Protestant way reflecting his bias. One reviewr noted, as an exmaple, "his lack of coverage of Pseudo-Dionysus." It is also stated that "however, this book is only an introduction, and does not claim to be the end all guide to every figure in church history." So its possible he doenst even delve into the subject of ideological origins. Although this text is stands in Protestant Seminaries I also note tat "footnotes are kept to an absolute minimum," and "Suggestions for further reading are given at the end of each section, but these are very incomplete. For example, the only suggestion for further reading on English Puritanism was published in 1912." This doesnt sound very scholarship. Other reviewrs have stated that "the information given is basic and watered-down, lacking a more in-depth view of Christian history." Also, that it does not have the degree of the history of doctrinal development, or even of all aspects of religious conflicts that would be helpful in graduate studies. It seems this was written on a very basic level. One commentator who read the book, had a problem with the elementary level of its writing, too. "I did not care for the writing style, which seemed on a par with what "grammar checkers" would allow as not being "pretentious" (translation: nothing above the level of an eight year old.) Though I'd consider the term "readable" to be very complimentary, this book goes too far, placing the language on such an elementary level that I sometimes had to stop a moment and remember this was not a child's book." Again, not what we normally find in scholarly work in academe.
- Next, Chadwick, described as "The Reverend William Owen Chadwick, (1916) is a British professor, writer and prominent theologian." And the editorial review from the Library Journal"
"has written an accessible, easily readable history of Christianity...a clear meaning of basic Christian concepts. However, this book has faults. It attempts to be utterly noncontroversial, relating the traditional history taught in mainstream schools and omitting or downplaying much. The Spanish Inquisition is discussed in three paragraphs, and the Holocaust receives barely a half-page. Radical feminist theological movements of the 20th century are not mentioned at all. These oversights unfortunately give the book the sanitized narrative tone of a companion book to a PBS special. Further interrupting the work are the intrusive opinions of the author. The voice is that of a lover of Christian history rather than a purely academic scholar, and if all the reader wants is a comfortable and entertaining historical introduction to this immense academic field, this book satisfies that need."
- Hmmm, another book that is described as something other than classicly academic in character, but rather something that is more designed to be comortable and entertaining. Others have said of the book, "I found Professor Chadwick not to have a detached scholarly approach. The text is peppered with his moral and political views. For example in P14: "In these towns where religions and cults were everywhere, yet moral standards were as low as those of later twentieth century, ..."
- Now, we get back to the best example of the opposite of what you claim your scholars to be with Paul Johnson. I actually have read some of his articles in various magazines like the New Repblic, before, I believe. He makes some pretty crazy politically charged claims, and many of which I have found to be very false. But, as I said, he is described as a pop-historian, and journalist, commentatator, pundit, although I do acknowelege that the book you cite by him sounds like it would be worth reading and instructive. Indeed, its stated that the book is "so good, his books almost qualify as serious academics.." Almost. Anyone can type in his name and read any of his many provocative articles and instantly see he is no academic historian, so I won't bother with showing that here. Infact he is often mocked, esp. in the UK. I do note we have a Wiki article on him, so to give you some idea of where he comes from, I quote:
- Johnson is a critic of the enlightenment because of its implicit disavowal of faith[6] and also finds Charles Darwin and the theory of evolution[7] objectionable for the same reason. His criticisms of established scientific theory illustrates a failure to understand the scientific method and has resulted in some wildly inaccurate and naive articles on science especially where those come into conflict with religious dogma. He agrees with the traditional Christian view of the Bible as containing the literal truth about the nature of the universe (including truths which can be evaluated scientifically), a position which has been challenged strongly by many scholars of the last three centuries. As a result of Johnson's views on evolution, the Darwinian scientist (and noted atheist) Richard Dawkins[8] has been a target of Johnson's ire in the past. As a conservative Catholic, he regards Liberation theology as a heresy and defends Clerical celibacy, but sees women priests as inevitable.[9]
- A hero of conservatives in the United States, he is strongly anti-communist[10]; according to Johnson the anger in Marx's writings makes his views invalid (In the Psychiatrist's Chair BBC Radio 4 1991). Johnson has defended Richard Nixon[11] in the Watergate scandal, finding his cover-up considerably less heinous than Bill Clinton's perjury, and Oliver North in the Iran-Contra Affair. In his Spectator column he has defended convicted perjurer and friend Jonathan Aitken[12] and has openly expressed admiration for General Franco and General Pinochet[13].
- He was an early admirer of Tony Blair, principally for his foreign policies, but has more recently fallen into line as an opponent; he disliked everything else about the Labour Party under Blair, particularly objecting to its Scottish element.[14] He does not see himself as being inconsistent, arguing that he has admired individuals more than political philosophies. An amateur painter, of landscapes rather than portraits, he has admitted to a fascination with faces.[15]
- Johnson is regularly mocked in the liberal British press[16] for what his critics regard as inconsistencies and changes of opinion. Private Eye long used the epithet 'Paul "Loonybins" Johnson', though the magazine originally applied the tag to American President Lyndon B. Johnson for his policies in the Vietnam War. Despite accusations that Johnson's historical writings are mere propaganda which twist facts, he can develop an antipathy to conservative governments, as he showed during the years John Major was Prime Minister in the UK.[17]"
- Well at least we can all see what you accept as the high standards for serious mainstream academics regarding Christian scholarship. hehe 64.121.40.153 09:02, 23 January 2006 (UTC)Giovanni
It isn't what I accept...it's what the acdemy accepts. They do accept Gonzales, McGrath, etc., whereas Paglia is not taken seriously as an historian (though she may have respect in other fields, which is fine). The books I cited are considered somewhat authoritative and used often in and by the academy as "overviews"; none agree with your perspective. That says something, doesn't it? No, they all don't have a chapter which openly refutes your ideas...largely because they simply don't take the time to treat every radical approach that's out there. They attempt to say, "Here's the thrust of Christian history inasmuch as the academy understands it today." I have no doubt that the scholars' personal views color their writing perspective, and that doesn't bother me. The same is true of, say, Paglia. While the academy hopes for objectivity, they never ask you to leave your perspective out (unless they're helping to write an NPOV encyclopedia, I suppose!). Besides, somewone being a person of faith doesn't mean they aren't among the top in their field, particularly if the historical evidence supports their perspective (which it often does). My concern remains that we do not take a fringe view which hasn't won over the academy and lift it up as mainstream. As I've said, we can mention it in a sentence or two and move on. That seems fair. KHM03 12:01, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
What I would suggest is that you see if you can write a sentence or two on the influence of the mystery religions on early Christianity, and see how that fits. We can (hopefully) solve this impasse with brevity (and, by all means, a link to Mystery religion, where the reader can find out more about that phenomenon). KHM03 12:17, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
- Which academy? Prove it. Prove they accept only your scholars and not mine. Prove to me that Paglia is not taking serious. By whom? Cite specifically and show that. Now you say the books you cited are only considered "somewhat authoritative." Well the scholars I cite are fully authoritative. Why is your accepted and mine not? You say they dont have a chapter which openly refutes my ideas. But you said earlier they do refute it. Now they dont refute it openly? So do they refute is secretly? hehe Or maybe they just don't mention it at all? I think that is what you are getting at. See, they do say what they think is the trust of Christian history but as I've shown these Christian authors tend to not want to deal with the origins of their own beliefs. That is to be expected and that is POV. My view is only fringe within the context of this Christian POV. If its not, then, please prove that. Until you do, the suppression of my content has not basis to stand and I'll restor it. If you can show its a minority view, then Ill shorten it and change the language accordingly.
- As Dr. Larson writes, "Christian have always held that their creed was a single, unique, miraculous, and supreme revelation without predecessor or outside contributor. But the fact is that nothing could be further from the truth; Christianity is a composite of doctrines, teachings, and ideologies which have forerunners in previous religions, with a proximate source in the Essene cult. If these facts were widely known, the authority of the Church or the churches would be drastically reduced....they prefer simply to ignore the whole thing as if it did not exist." Giovanni33 16:03, 23 January 2006 (UTC)Gio
I don't always have time to write long explanations on talk pages, so for the moment will just state simply that I agree with KHM03. AnnH (talk) 08:29, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, but he has not been able to support this challenged claims yet. If one makes a claim, then they assume a burden of proof to support it when challenged. Anyone who agrees with him can do so as well, ofcourse. Then I, and others, can evaluate if this claims have merit or not, or debate them or aceept as valid. However, simply making a claims in absense of references support, whereas I am providing referenced support, does not give one the advantage to supress referenced information. I don't always have time to make my case either but I don't make major changes, and remove others work without first making the case why it should be removed, and supporting that case when challenged. I think this is a reasonable protocol. 64.121.40.153 11:08, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
I have mentioned authorities who disagree with your view. Again, your beef is with the academy, not with me. Obviously, your proposals have been challenged. All we're asking is that you convince us here, saving us having to remove or revert. When any editor wants to put forth such radical, fringe theories, they need to make their case. Please convince us, and we'll try and reach a consensus. Thanks...KHM03 11:12, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
- Well suppose that you cannot be convinced--not because of a lack of logic, or evidence, but due to a kind of dogmatism? A religious beliefs rely on dogma, and no matter what someone says, no matter how much of evidence is presented, such a person will continue to hold to even an absurd set of beliefs. Predudices work in the same way. Sure, that is irrational, but its what we find in humans sometimes. So, your saying that all it takes is for there to be such reglious faith here and by that fact alone no such other view would possibly be allowed since it would require the impossible: changing their minds. As you can see, such a stance only secures POV. Faith should be private not a basis for asserting objective truth. For that task we must let reason, logic and evidence dictate. That is no how scholarship works.
- All that I should be required to do is use logic and rational argumentation with references to scholars who support my views and same arguments I do here. I make a claim and I support it. In response you make the claim, too-- that what I have provided is refuted by the mainstream scholars, that my scholars are fringe, obscure, radical, etc. Ok, those are interesting claims and if they are true you would have a point. However YOU need to support your claims and prove it is true. You make the claim YOU need to support your claim. That is how it’s supposed to work, right?
- True, you provided some scholars and books, and I looked at each one, as you can see. I did not find were they refute my stance as you claim. Moreover, you have not shown support for your claims that these particular authors (all Christians) are mainstream, whereas mine are not. Since your argument rests heavily on this assertion of alleged fact, it's rather important that you support it, no? After you do that, cite me where they have refuted my claims. The ball is in your court. Failure to act should default to my position since I have provided sourced references that specially support my claim from many scholars. 64.121.40.153 15:39, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
Hi my name is Kecik. I have not contributed yet, but I have been an observer here. I dont have a lot of time to do the research that Giovanni has done but I want to state that I agree with including the content argued for by Giovanni, Mika, Belinda, TheShriek, and others. I think they have made their case better than the other side (KHM03, Str1977, and Ann/MuscialL), and I don't like how things are being done unfair. I mean is I too can see there has been a double standard held against Giovanni. It seems the admins on here are also biased by being a Christian, and will enforce the predjudices of one side. That is a shame that this place is not NPOV, as it claims. I think this admin should recuse herself and get one that is not so close to the subject matter. Otherwise one can not expect impartiality 17:59, 24 January 2006 (UTC) Kecik
Hi my name is Kecik. I have not contributed yet, but I have been an observer here. I dont have a lot of time to do the research that Giovanni has done but I want to state that I agree with including the content argued for by Giovanni and I don't like how things are being done unfair. I mean is I too can see there has been a double standard held against Giovanni. It seems the admins on here are also biased by being a Christian, and will enforce the predjudices of one side. That is a shame that this place is not NPOV, as it claims. I think this admin should recuse herself and get one that is not so close to the subject matter. Otherwise one can not expect impartiality. So that is why I wont waste my time to argue here, but want to say to count me in that the Christians here do not have the consensus either, and no im not a socket puppet. 18:14, 24 January 2006 (UTC) Kecik
Constants reverts back to a stub without good cause is silly and counter productive. Contributions by Giovanni are relevant and intersting in this article. They should not be supressed without making a case here and getting our consensus first. I stuck on POV tag to show dispute, and hope to see you work with Giovanni for consensus instead of mindless reverts to a stub. This is not the Wiki way and does not promote neutrality. I note Giovanni has made his case but no one is responding, here, even. I also think he is being picked on unfairly. For example, see comment to justify reverts, "because you refuse to compromise." That is a lie, as far as I can tell. BelindaGong 01:01, 25 January 2006 (UTC)