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:: Your request is from E1 (West Bank), as if your recent undiscussed rename has been voted. I asked for revert and E1 (Jerusalem) -> ? --[[User:Mor2|Mor2]] ([[User talk:Mor2|talk]]) 13:42, 19 January 2013 (UTC) |
:: Your request is from E1 (West Bank), as if your recent undiscussed rename has been voted. I asked for revert and E1 (Jerusalem) -> ? furthermore, I only suggested E1 (Ma'ale Adumim) as an option if it is decided that the title should include geographical location. --[[User:Mor2|Mor2]] ([[User talk:Mor2|talk]]) 13:42, 19 January 2013 (UTC) |
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===Requested move=== |
===Requested move=== |
Revision as of 13:47, 19 January 2013
Palestine Stub‑class Mid‑importance | ||||||||||
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Merge proposal
Looking up this subject on Wikipedia, I came across this article and E1 Plan, which seems to have a very similar topic. They are slightly different - this one is about the area of land, the other is about the plan to build on it - but close enough that it would make more sense to cover them in a single article to avoid duplicating material. As this article is the older one and has more incoming links, I've suggested merging E1 Plan here rather than the other way around. If you have any thoughts on this merge proposal, please comment below. Robofish (talk) 16:24, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
- I'm inclined to agree that they should be merged. There is a bunch of redundant information between the articles, and most of the information not included in the E1 (Jerusalem) article could
probably be fit into a single section entitled "Controversy" or something. -- Avi (137.164.79.11 (talk) 00:01, 5 December 2012 (UTC))
- Support Merge - and support renaming to just "E1 Plan" or similar. All Rows4 (talk) 14:45, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
- Support - merging E1 plan into E1 (Jerusalem) or vice versa is so obvious. --@Efrat (talk) 16:21, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
- Support – same topic. —Ynhockey (Talk) 12:00, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
- Support --Dailycare (talk) 21:14, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
ElectronicIntifada as source
I don't quite understand this revert. ElectronicIntifada is a highly problematic website which should never be used as a source on Wikipedia. It is better to have no source, especially considering the fact that the underlying statement isn't being disputed (except perhaps its wording). —Ynhockey (Talk) 21:21, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
- Ali Abuminah is a notable Palestinian American journalist, he is regularly published in peer reviewed journals (e.g [1], [2], [3]. I find it highly problematic that someone would make the assertion that the source should never be used in Wikipedia, but I guess in this specific case it is not particularly important if we use it or not. Dlv999 (talk) 21:55, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
- If he is a regularly published Palestinian American journalist, then surely the same article can be found in another publication? ElectronicIntifada is not a reliable source, simple as that. If we agree on that then we can also agree that then it's irrelevant who the author of the article is, because the source could've changed the article, and also we don't want to damage Wikipedia's good name by including such sources. If, on the other hand, we disagree about ElectronicIntifada in general, then that's a whole different story. However, in this case it's been discussed ad nauseam, like here, and this is just one example from the last month (search the RSN archives for older examples). EI is a self-published source, and a controversial one at that. It has no place on Wikipedia, and as I said, since I'm not actually disputing the underlying fact (maybe just the wording, which is not relevant to whatever source is used), I don't really understand what the problem is removing the source. —Ynhockey (Talk) 16:53, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
- No, we do not agree on that point. You might want to read the RSN discussion that you linked. It is a nuanced discussion about whether a specific EI article should be used for a specific claim in a specific wiki article. Only one editor argues that EI should never be used and he changes his mind by the end of the discussion, So I'm not sure how you think this supports your assertion that it has "no place on Wikipedia". Whether a source is suitable or not is dependent on context. In this case EI is probably not the best source for a number of reasons, but I find your claims that EI should never be used to be dubious and contradicted by the RSN discussion that you have cited. Dlv999 (talk) 17:35, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
- re Ynhockey: I don't quite understand -- then ask don't judge. a highly problematic website -- problematic for who? What is the problem exactly, -DePiep (talk) 01:05, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
- If he is a regularly published Palestinian American journalist, then surely the same article can be found in another publication? ElectronicIntifada is not a reliable source, simple as that. If we agree on that then we can also agree that then it's irrelevant who the author of the article is, because the source could've changed the article, and also we don't want to damage Wikipedia's good name by including such sources. If, on the other hand, we disagree about ElectronicIntifada in general, then that's a whole different story. However, in this case it's been discussed ad nauseam, like here, and this is just one example from the last month (search the RSN archives for older examples). EI is a self-published source, and a controversial one at that. It has no place on Wikipedia, and as I said, since I'm not actually disputing the underlying fact (maybe just the wording, which is not relevant to whatever source is used), I don't really understand what the problem is removing the source. —Ynhockey (Talk) 16:53, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
rename?
It seems that the article has been renamed without a vote or discussion. How so? --Mor2 (talk) 23:09, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
- Sources refer to E1 as being in the West Bank, I haven't seen one claiming it is part of Jerusalem. Dlv999 (talk) 08:32, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
- I didn't asked you to guess why the user moved it or add your support for the new title. I asked why the move took place without an outlet for us to make those arguments and suggestions in the first place. --Mor2 (talk) 15:20, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
- Mor2, the answer to your question is: Sources refer to E1 as being in the West Bank, I haven't seen one claiming it is part of Jerusalem. -DePiep (talk) 16:08, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
- DePiep, the question is: Why the article has been renamed without a vote or discussion?--Mor2 (talk) 16:53, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
- Read Wikipedia:Move#Before_moving_a_page and ask yourself what an editor would have to believe in order for them to decide that they can move a page without a vote or discussion. Then the question becomes why do they believe that ? You will find the answer to that question above. Sean.hoyland - talk 17:03, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
- I am not in the business of guessing other people motives. I am looking for a simple answer to a simple question, after all this article is part of an active arbitration case, I think that a basic discussion should have been inorder.--Mor2 (talk) 17:30, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
- Let me spell it out: the new title is based on a fact, as the earlier answer said. If you read the link Sean.hoyland provided, you can learn how you can protest or discuss the change. Less formal, but to the same effect, you could have started a discussion on this page already. You may expect a serious discussion, except when the attitude is getting personal. One argument is already in this thread, which might give a clue about the outcome. -DePiep (talk) 17:56, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
- I am not in the business of guessing other people motives. I am looking for a simple answer to a simple question, after all this article is part of an active arbitration case, I think that a basic discussion should have been inorder.--Mor2 (talk) 17:30, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
- Read Wikipedia:Move#Before_moving_a_page and ask yourself what an editor would have to believe in order for them to decide that they can move a page without a vote or discussion. Then the question becomes why do they believe that ? You will find the answer to that question above. Sean.hoyland - talk 17:03, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
- DePiep, the question is: Why the article has been renamed without a vote or discussion?--Mor2 (talk) 16:53, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
- Mor2, the answer to your question is: Sources refer to E1 as being in the West Bank, I haven't seen one claiming it is part of Jerusalem. -DePiep (talk) 16:08, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
- I didn't asked you to guess why the user moved it or add your support for the new title. I asked why the move took place without an outlet for us to make those arguments and suggestions in the first place. --Mor2 (talk) 15:20, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
I don't know about which fact or naming convention your rename is based on, only that you thought that such a rename on this page will not be controversial. If you look at the merge proposal on this page, you can see that a month ago I have questioned the Jerusalem part in the title myself, nevertheless I haven't went with a partisan rename like you did, without any discussion trying to understand why it was named so or looking for better alternatives.--Mor2 (talk) 18:16, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
- I'm not in the business of answering simple questions with answers that can be deduced from the information already available, but I did it anyway because it was obvious that your approach wasn't working. Arbitration has nothing to do with the answer to the question you asked which was about why an editor did something, not whether it was right. If you think it shouldn't have happened, you could have just said that using straightforward language that expressed what you think and what you would like to happen. Also, it would help if you provided a source based reason that explains why you regard it as a "partisan rename" just like DePiep has provided a reason for the rename, Sources refer to E1 as being in the West Bank, I haven't seen one claiming it is part of Jerusalem. Sean.hoyland - talk 18:45, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
- Arbitration alludes to the fact that big changes to this article such as change to its title, would likely be subject of controversy and as such should have been discussed up front and my question was very straight forward, asking why the rename was done seemingly without discussion or achieving consensus.(since I wasn't sure if DePiep participated in some from of discussion or if there was some rule that allowed him to do so).
- Anyway on the constructive side, I support a revert and proper discussion for rename. --Mor2 (talk) 19:20, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
- Thats bureaucracy for the sake of bureaucracy. If you want this named E1 (Jerusalem) say that. Then you would have a reason for moving it back and having a proper discussion. But do you actually think that this is not the correct name? If not, why should anybody go through the hassle? nableezy - 19:49, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
- Your request is from E1 (West Bank), as if your recent undiscussed rename has been voted. I asked for revert and E1 (Jerusalem) -> ? furthermore, I only suggested E1 (Ma'ale Adumim) as an option if it is decided that the title should include geographical location. --Mor2 (talk) 13:42, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
Requested move
E1 (West Bank) → E1 (Ma'ale Adumim) – @Nableezy, Yes I think that 'E1 (West_Bank)' is not the correct name. First its my understanding that E1(which is short for East1) is the area within the Maale Adumim municipal boundary, which is east of Jerusalem. As such DePiep made a wrong presumption that it refers a geographical location of E1 in Jerusalem, changing the name of the project to a shorthand + geographical location. Second even if we choose to use a geographical location saying that E1 is in the 'West Bank' makes as much sense as saying that Manhattan is in the USA rather than New York.
Considering that some found the title confusing, I don't mind a discussion and suggestion toward a more clear title but knowing how some discussion here turn out, I don't think that following proper procedure is bureaucracy for the sake of bureaucracy. @Dailycare, The point of this discussion is that this is controversial change and thus should have been discussed instead of done in partisan fashion. --Mor2 (talk) 21:05, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
- Note: I added the formal WP:RM template added by me to structure the discussion. From here it is forward only: discuss a proposed new name. Any back references (to previous process or "revert") are irrelevant here: just treat it as a proposed future name change. -DePiep (talk) 11:22, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
- Mor2. After some warnings I start taking offence to you using the "partisan" accusation (second time) and other non-AGF contributions. I suggest you take it back and refrain from further casting of aspersions and making the discussion personal. -DePiep (talk) 21:38, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
- Even if you don't consider East Jerusalem part of the West Bank, Ma'ale Adumim is part of the West Bank, not Jerusalem. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 21:45, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
- Either there was a misunderstanding or you are making strawman arguments, since as far as I seen no one suggested that E1/Ma'ale Adumim was part of Jerusalem or East Jerusalem as you said. only that Ma'ale Adumim named its municipal territory which is east of Jerusalem as East1 and that E1 (Ma'ale Adumim) will be far better title than E1 (West_Bank). Other than that I believe that its obvious that there are enough arguments for revert and discuss/vote.--Mor2 (talk) 22:08, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
- "since as far as I seen no one suggested that E1/Ma'ale Adumim was part of Jerusalem or East Jerusalem". In that case there is zero case for a revert because, as you say, there are zero people claiming the previous name was an appropriate name for the article. Dlv999 (talk) 03:57, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
- Either there was a misunderstanding or you are making strawman arguments, since as far as I seen no one suggested that E1/Ma'ale Adumim was part of Jerusalem or East Jerusalem as you said. only that Ma'ale Adumim named its municipal territory which is east of Jerusalem as East1 and that E1 (Ma'ale Adumim) will be far better title than E1 (West_Bank). Other than that I believe that its obvious that there are enough arguments for revert and discuss/vote.--Mor2 (talk) 22:08, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
I dont really care if its moved back. I think its silly, but Mor2 is entitled to ask people to go through the motions. However, what actually counts for the name here is WP:DAB and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names)#Disambiguation. The first thing there that would apply here is Places are often disambiguated by the country in which they lie, if this is sufficient. The choices using that would be West Bank or Palestinian territories. Jerusalem as the disambiguation doesnt fit, neither does Ma'ale Adumim. And thats leaving the politics completely out of it. But if you want to make life harder than it has to be, move the page back. nableezy - 04:58, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
- Keep E1 (West Bank). The proposal by Mor2 appears as if it is a sort of opinion on how to name it. That is not so. The name of the article originally should be E1 (no one disputes). But then, since there are other unrelated topics on WP that are named E1, see E1 (disambiguation), we need to add a disambiguation tag to the WP:TITLE. That is the only reason something bracketed appears in the title. Now which term to choose? As WP:PLACE says on disambiguation, "(West Bank)" ticks all the boxes, while "(Jerusalem)" (plain wrong) and "(Ma'ale Adumim)" (what you say?) do not. "(West Bank)" hits on use English, widely accepted. And, time to note this, it is geographically correct. As for being simple and helpfull for the user (reader), I cannot find a trumping argument in the proposal. -DePiep (talk) 11:40, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
Questions
The lead says:
- "E1(short for East 1), also named Mevaseret Adumim" - I Googled "Mevaseret Adumim" and found this[4] it is the name of a neighborhood to be constructed there, so they are the same or additional neighborhoods are planed there?
- "number of Bedouin communities", while later on we have only Jahalin Bedouins, so which is it?
- Any reason why the "Bab al Shams" a 48 hours protest should be left in the lead? because I think its WP:UNDUE .--Mor2 (talk) 20:37, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
- Source is not an RS so has no relevance to the article
- Cited RS states that there are a number Bedouin communities within E1 therefore the article says there are a number of Bedouin communities within E1
- Bab Al Shams has received widespread national and international coverage in RS. We weight our articles according prevalence in RS (See WP:NPOV). Dlv999 (talk) 04:02, 19 January 2013 (UTC)