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:::Do you have a source directly attributing the cleansing actions in the Sandžak and eastern Bosnia massacres (Foča, Pljevlja, Bijelo Polje, Čajniče, etc.) to Mihailović himself? Do you have a source explaining explaining why the instructions are claimed to be a forgery? And, perhaps most importantly, do you have a source that attributes the various massacres and cleansing actions to the M's instructions, rather than to a desire for revenge and settling scores, old and new, between the various bands and groups in the field? I could make any number of suppositions, guesses, or assertions regarding the situation, and I have lots of questions about what happened. Fortunately, I don't have to worry about those questions, as we are only supposed to reflect what sources say. Also, what you are proposing is, I think, putting undue emphasis on this particular issue, and we don't need to duplicate the massacre section in the chetnik article here. The paucity of good sources we have in terms of the instructions bothers me, I'll try to find something in Roberts and Pavlowitch on the issue. <span style="text-shadow: 0.2em 0.2em 0.1em #DDDDDD">--[[User:Nuujinn|Nuujinn]] ([[User_talk:Nuujinn|talk]])</span> 11:14, 6 July 2011 (UTC) |
:::Do you have a source directly attributing the cleansing actions in the Sandžak and eastern Bosnia massacres (Foča, Pljevlja, Bijelo Polje, Čajniče, etc.) to Mihailović himself? Do you have a source explaining explaining why the instructions are claimed to be a forgery? And, perhaps most importantly, do you have a source that attributes the various massacres and cleansing actions to the M's instructions, rather than to a desire for revenge and settling scores, old and new, between the various bands and groups in the field? I could make any number of suppositions, guesses, or assertions regarding the situation, and I have lots of questions about what happened. Fortunately, I don't have to worry about those questions, as we are only supposed to reflect what sources say. Also, what you are proposing is, I think, putting undue emphasis on this particular issue, and we don't need to duplicate the massacre section in the chetnik article here. The paucity of good sources we have in terms of the instructions bothers me, I'll try to find something in Roberts and Pavlowitch on the issue. <span style="text-shadow: 0.2em 0.2em 0.1em #DDDDDD">--[[User:Nuujinn|Nuujinn]] ([[User_talk:Nuujinn|talk]])</span> 11:14, 6 July 2011 (UTC) |
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:Um, again, I'm more than a little surprised at your request. Nuujinn, the troops in southern Serbia and Montenegro at that time were under the direct control of the Chetnik SHQ, i.e. Mihailovic, who was there on the spot. Perhaps you're missing |
:Um, again, I'm more than a little surprised at your request. Nuujinn, the troops in southern Serbia and Montenegro at that time were under the direct control of the Chetnik SHQ, i.e. Mihailovic, who was there on the spot. Perhaps you're missing some context there. Tomasevich is the source, and he clearly states that cleansing actions were ordered by SHQ. Not only is it perfectly clear that Tomasevich, who is talking about the supreme command continuously, is referring to the supreme command in that sentence as well (as opposed to some new and unnamed authority) , but it is historically inconceivable that any other authority could hypothetically have done so. Tomasevich's text is clear in its description, I do hope the discussion has grown past playing such word games. |
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:As for M's Instructions directive, which is almost certainly authentic if the forgery claim is unsupported by evidence and originates with Karchmar, they constitute a criminal order and link Mihailovic directly, not only with the Sanjak and eastern Bosnia massacres, but also with Chetnik ethnic cleansing in general. It is both the Chetnik |
:As for M's Instructions directive, which is almost certainly authentic if the forgery claim is unsupported by evidence and originates with Karchmar, they constitute a criminal order and link Mihailovic directly, not only with the Sanjak and eastern Bosnia massacres, but also with Chetnik ethnic cleansing in general. It is both the policy of the Chetnik movement, instituted by its commander, ''and'' local "vendettas" we can thank for the killings and mass terror. --<font face="Eras Bold ITC">[[User:DIREKTOR|<font color="DimGray">DIREKTOR</font>]] <sup>([[User talk:DIREKTOR|<font color="Gray">TALK</font>]])</sup></font> 13:34, 7 July 2011 (UTC) |
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Ok, [[Talk:Draža_Mihailović/quotations/#Pavlowitch.2C_Stevan_K._Hitler.27s_new_disorder:_the_Second_World_War_in_Yugoslavia Pavlowitch]] sheds some light on this, pp. 79-80, referring to Karchmar's work, which suggests that Djurišić forged the instructions, believing the M. might be dead, and wanting to have M. authority. I've requested Karchmar's work through interlibrary loan, should have it early next week. <span style="text-shadow: 0.2em 0.2em 0.1em #DDDDDD">--[[User:Nuujinn|Nuujinn]] ([[User_talk:Nuujinn|talk]])</span> 00:58, 7 July 2011 (UTC) |
Ok, [[Talk:Draža_Mihailović/quotations/#Pavlowitch.2C_Stevan_K._Hitler.27s_new_disorder:_the_Second_World_War_in_Yugoslavia Pavlowitch]] sheds some light on this, pp. 79-80, referring to Karchmar's work, which suggests that Djurišić forged the instructions, believing the M. might be dead, and wanting to have M. authority. I've requested Karchmar's work through interlibrary loan, should have it early next week. <span style="text-shadow: 0.2em 0.2em 0.1em #DDDDDD">--[[User:Nuujinn|Nuujinn]] ([[User_talk:Nuujinn|talk]])</span> 00:58, 7 July 2011 (UTC) |
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Quotations and sources subpage
Terms of Discussion
Discussion on this page is moderated. The article had been locked and moderation was a condition of unlocking it. The following terms have been agreed to by participants in the mediation. While newcomers are welcome to join the discussion, they will be expected to observe the policies highlighted at the top of the page, as well as these terms:
- Participants will restrict themselves to 500 words per post, and a limit of three posts per day on any topic related to this article, the mediation about this article, or any editor involved anywhere on WP--here, user talk pages, ANI, anywhere.
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- Any statement about some historical fact or event must be supplemented with the reference to some reliable source that that directly supports the material. It is a responsibility of the user who makes such a statement to provide needed links to the quote from the reliable source that supports this statement.
- The factual statements that contains no references to RS are deemed just a personal opinions of the users who make them, and therefore have a zero weight and can be ignored.
The foregoing may be summarized as follows: 1) Closely support all claims, 2) propose specific article changes, 3) stick to the subject under discussion, and, 4) be concise.
Remember that the talk page guidelines suggest that being concise is a best practice. While a limit of 500 words has been agreed to, 200 words is better (and 100 words is better still!) Sources and quotes that are referred to frequently should be placed on the following subpage: Talk:Draža Mihailović/quotations/. Please put separate issues/topics in separate, labeled sections. Currently I am moderating and I trust in the support and assistance of participants. Others moderators may join, as needed, in the future. Sunray (talk) 20:16, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
Working on new draft of article
The article is now unlocked and I have moved the draft article that was worked on during mediation. Some clean-up is required, particularly with respect to notes and references. Here's an initial "to do" list. Participants may suggest additions, as needed. Sunray (talk) 21:38, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
Tasks
- Clean up notes and references
- Consider additions to the article
- Early years - World War I and between the wars (per old article)
- Capture, trial and execution - add draft from mediation page?
- Discussion and consensus on collaboration
- Discussion on
"ethnic cleansing"war crimes
Thanks to all who have worked on this. Let's keep the "Terms of discussion" (above) in mind as we proceed. Sunray (talk) 21:38, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
- Looks lovely Sunray. Just a minor typo point. It reads On the other hand, Mihailovic sought to prevent Tito from assuming the leadership role in the resistance,[39][40] Further talks were scheduled for October 16th.[41] as his goal was the restoration of the Yugoslavian Monarchy and the establishment of a Greater Serbia[42] I assume the bit as his goal... should be after ...resistance,.... I shall shift it. Fainites barleyscribs 21:40, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
Comments on additions
What is needed in addition to the current version of the article to make it more complete? Sunray (talk) 16:52, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
- This sub-thread (that you've added to the top for some reason) is completely unrelated to resolving the dispute. Further sidetracking the resolution of contentious issues already taking over 16 months to resolve is a bad idea, in my humble opinion. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 17:06, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
- Thank you for your views on that. This is now a moderated discussion and extends beyond the mediation or the mediation participants. I would like to hear from other editors on this. Sunray (talk) 18:05, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
- This is a moderated discussion? I for one don't remember agreeing to moderation, or moderators for that matter. It seems rather irregular that you should unilaterally presume to assume the same position you had on the (failed) mediation project. But I'm not going to press the issue, even if this is a moderated discussion, it is a moderated discussion on the dispute. I will also add that it is precisely your insistance on going through the whole of the entire (comparatively large) Wikipedia article, as opposed to merely the disputed edits, that contributed immensely to the length of the mediation, and the subsequent lack of interest and involvement by all of the participants. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 19:55, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
- One of the conditions for unlocking the article was that there would be a moderated discussion on this talk page. Although the discussion begins with the draft that was prepared in the mediation, it extends to the whole article (essentially because the new draft incorporates the whole article). The other reason for it being a moderated (as opposed to mediated) discussion is due to the fact that we are including any editor with an interest in this topic and a willingness to abide by the Terms of discussion. Although that was the subject of considerable discussion (ref, Archives 4 & 5), perhaps it isn't clear enough from the instructions on this page. I will add something to the Terms about this. Sunray (talk) 17:03, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
- This is a moderated discussion? I for one don't remember agreeing to moderation, or moderators for that matter. It seems rather irregular that you should unilaterally presume to assume the same position you had on the (failed) mediation project. But I'm not going to press the issue, even if this is a moderated discussion, it is a moderated discussion on the dispute. I will also add that it is precisely your insistance on going through the whole of the entire (comparatively large) Wikipedia article, as opposed to merely the disputed edits, that contributed immensely to the length of the mediation, and the subsequent lack of interest and involvement by all of the participants. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 19:55, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
- Thank you for your views on that. This is now a moderated discussion and extends beyond the mediation or the mediation participants. I would like to hear from other editors on this. Sunray (talk) 18:05, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
I think we'll want to expand the legacy section somewhat. I think I can work out how to treat how M. has been used as a propaganda tool, and that might be worth breaking out as a separate section, but that will have to wait I fear until we'd done with the ethnic cleansing discussion. I also note that we have some questionable sources, such as the spartacus site and Martin's work, and too many external links, but I recognize that this section is about expansion, not reduction. --Nuujinn (talk) 14:45, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
Discussion on collaboration
Nov 11 meeting
We have in the article "The meeting, organized through one of Mihailović's representatives in Belgrade, took place between the Chetnik leader and an Abwehr official, although it remains controversial if the initiative came from the Germans, from Mihailović himself, or from his liaison officer in Belgrade.[citation needed]". Without a source, we shouldn't keep this. I have added a quotation from Lampe's work on the quotation page which attribute the initiative to Milhailovic. Do we have any sources supporting or refuting Lampe's characterization? --Nuujinn (talk) 23:11, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
- The meeting was arranged jointly by Captain Joseph Matl of the Abwehr and Colonel Branislav Pantić, Mihailović's chief delegate and representative in Belgrade. The two have already met in Belgrade on October 28, when "the Chetnik command had already dispatched to Belgrade Colonel Branislav Pantić and Captain Nenad Mitrović, two of Mihailović's aides, where they contacted German intelligence officer Captain Josef Matl on October 28. They informed the Abwehr that they have been empowered by Colonel Mihailović to establish contact with Prime Minister Milan Nedić and the appropriate Wehrmacht command posts to inform them that the Colonel was willing to 'place himself and his men at their disposal for fighting communism'." (Tomasevich I, Chapter 7) The meeting with Mihailović in person was arranged (for ten days later) as a continuation of this talks.
- In other words, the initiative was Mihailović's, who started the negotations. The meeting in person at Divci cannot be viewed outside that context. Or outside the context that the Partisans were still their de facto allies when the approach was made. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 23:28, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
- Thank you, but could you provide a page number and move the quote to the quotation subpage? --Nuujinn (talk) 23:45, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
- Unfortunately I don't have the book with me at the moment (I got it at the city library, its very hard to find and costs some 150€). I did quote the text verbatim, however, in my work on the First anti-Partisan Offensive article, but neglected to specify the exact page and posted instead a link which is now dead. Its there in Chapter 7, however, I invite anyone to verify.
- But if there's any doubt you can find the same info on Roberts p.35. He further states that Matl was the one who suggested to Pantić that Mihailović comes to Divci in person. That is very likely, Matl was far more enthusistic to accept the Chetnik proposals of cooperation than his superiors. However, as I said, it must not be neglected why Miahilović's personal representative (Pantić) was engaged in negotiations with the Abwehr in the first place, or who sent him to Belgrade to start the negotiations.
- Thank you, but could you provide a page number and move the quote to the quotation subpage? --Nuujinn (talk) 23:45, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
- Those are the full events, and we can now probably see the cause of the controversy. 1) Mihaiović dispatched his representatives Pantić and Mitrović to Belgrade to offer military cooperation and request assisstance and supplies from the Germans. 2) The German representative Captain Matl then suggests to Pantić that Mihailović and his Abwehr superiors meet in Divci. 3) Pantić then relays this to Mihailović and the latter accepts.
- The "controversy" lies in the fact that, even though the personal meeting with Mihailović himself was suggested by the Abwehr Captain Matl, the negotiations of late October and early November were initiated by the Chetniks to begin with, who sent their people to the Abwehr on October 28. So if someone were to play word games he could theoretically say "the Germans invited Draža!", but the actual facts are a bit more complex. (This must also be taken in the context of the three-sided simoultaneous military operations, but I can't go into more deatil because of the 500-word limit.. :)) --DIREKTOR (TALK) 00:55, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
With regard to collaboration, it must be made clear that Mihailović himself never signed any specific agreements, to use his own words "because of public opinion". It is that he actively condoned and promoted the collaboration of his immediate subordinates that is the issue here. For example, he actually ordered them to do so on at least one occasion, and personally commanded collaborating MVAC formations. In other words, the collaboration way done with his consent.--DIREKTOR (TALK) 14:56, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
Ok, I have found some quotes, Pavlowitch on page 65 asserts that one cannot know who initiated the meeting, and Roberts, p. 35, attributes the initiative to Matl. I think that between the four sources, we can document that it's not clear who initiated the meeting on 11 November 1941. --Nuujinn (talk) 22:34, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
Discussion on war crimes
While the term "ethnic cleansing" was used in an earlier version of the article, based on some of the discussion during the mediation, its use seems problematic, at best. The term was first used in the 1980s and only came into popular use in the 1990s. Thus, its application to events that occurred during World War II is questionable. Moreover, as Naimark (2007) points out, the term "ethnic cleansing" can be used to mean a wide variety of actions, ranging from forced deportation of ethnic groups, to genocide. As ethnic cleansing has not been clearly established by the courts as a category of criminal offense, its use is ambiguous.[1] Were war crimes committed by the Chetniks? What evidence is available? Comments? Sunray (talk) 16:51, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
- Sunray, such scholarly terms are used retroactively as a matter of course. The term "genocide" was defined well after WWII yet it is used quite often to describe events long predating its first use. The same goes for ethnic cleansing itself. In short, if the sources use it, there is no reason for us to represent them falsely. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 17:01, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
- Did you read the citation I gave? Sunray (talk) 18:17, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
- Yes I did. Should I cite all the historiographic sources innumerable that use the term in conjunction with events prior to 15 years ago? --DIREKTOR (TALK) 19:36, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
- If you think it is needed, perhaps you could put the historiographic sources on the subpage for quotes. The point made by Naimark is that ethnic cleansing is a vague term. I am suggesting that we focus on terms that are definable, such as genocide or other specific war crimes. Sunray (talk) 19:49, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
- It is not for you to decide whether the term is too vague or whether it applies to the events in question. That is WP:OR. Lets leave it to the actual historians please. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 20:10, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
- If you think it is needed, perhaps you could put the historiographic sources on the subpage for quotes. The point made by Naimark is that ethnic cleansing is a vague term. I am suggesting that we focus on terms that are definable, such as genocide or other specific war crimes. Sunray (talk) 19:49, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
- Yes I did. Should I cite all the historiographic sources innumerable that use the term in conjunction with events prior to 15 years ago? --DIREKTOR (TALK) 19:36, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
- Did you read the citation I gave? Sunray (talk) 18:17, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
I've added some sources relative to this issue to the quotation page. I think this is a very tricky issue. Milhailovic generally avoided doing anything, at least openly, that would endanger his reputation with the Allies. I think there is no question that what we would call ethnic cleansing was rampant throughout the region as various groups jockeyed for power. Revenge played a role, I am sure. Note that there is disagreement regarding the instructions supposedly issued by Milhailovic, which some sources regard as a forgery. I think one could make the case that he was not in a position to stop some of the chetnik groups from engaging in reprisals and what we would call ethnic cleansing. I'm not sure as yet as to how to deal with this particular issue, it will require careful thought. --Nuujinn (talk) 00:14, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks Nuujinn. The agreement on this page was that decisions would be based on sources and evidence. Sunray (talk) 07:28, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
- Yes. My primary concern is how to weigh the sources. For example, both Lerner and Mulaj attribute ethnic cleansing to Milhailovic, but it is more passing mention than significant coverage. Malcolm points to the likelihood that the instructions to which both Lerner and Mulaj allude was a forgery by M's subordinates, and I believe that is supported in Roberts and Tomosevich, but I need to find the relevant passages. I assume that we would give more weight to the works of historians focussing on Mihailovic than we would to those treating a broader topic which only briefly treat Milhailovic. --Nuujinn (talk) 12:27, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
- tbh I do not see the problem. If the sources disagree let us simply list both views, either with or without attribution. As for weighing the sources in general, I would crown Tomasevich as Jozo I, King of the Sources. The guy's work represents the raw bedrock upon which most of the modern research on this subject rests. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 13:03, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
- Tomasevich attributes the directive to being written by Mihailović and that he sent it to Pavle Đurišić and Đorđije Lašić. (added quote) -- ◅PRODUCER (TALK) 13:16, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
- Producer points out that Tomasevich attributes such statements to Mihailović. That seems to me to be important in an article on the latter. I also note that the term "ethnic cleansing" is not used but rather "cleansing." As pointed out at the top of this thread, this can mean various things from deportation to genocide. Nuujinn has agreed to look for the actual statements in Roberts or Tomasevich. This seems to me to be the kind of focus needed for this discussion. Sunray (talk) 16:44, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
- Sunray, the "cleansing" of ethnicities is called "ethnic cleansing". Your position on this is simply without grounds. If the sources use the term "cleansing" for these events that is the term we must use. The rest is your WP:OR, and your judgement that the term is not "defined enough". The term happens to be in use all over Wikipedia, and by providing context from the source we can easily remove any ambiguity. I shall simply never agree that this page and this page alone should ignore what the sources say in favour of your own standards of terminology with regard to these events. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 18:37, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
- Direktor, sometime ago you said you were going to produce some sources on this. I'm looking for quotes that connect "ethnic cleansing" (or any other reference to cleansing) with Mihailović. Sources first. Then discussion, as agreed. BTW, the contention that "ethnic cleansing" is a vague term is sourced. As I have stated, I was quoting Naimark (2007). Sunray (talk) 19:18, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
- In the page where I pulled the quote from, Tomasevich uses the terms "cleansing actions", "mass terror", and "terrorist methods" to describe the massacres that the Chetniks carried out against the civilian populace (in this case the Muslims). On another page, discussing the high death toll in Yugoslavia, he uses the term "genocide" to describe the actions of the Chetniks. [2] -- ◅PRODUCER (TALK) 19:13, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
- Thank you for that. Very useful references. If the article is going to use the terms "terrorism" or "genocide," we will need further info. Do you have quotes that give context? Sunray (talk) 19:22, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
- Ok, I expanded my previous quote on the quotations page. This should clear up any questions. -- ◅PRODUCER (TALK) 19:48, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
- @Sunray I truly am astonished as to why you constantly demand sources of me? Imo it is clear that I made no specific claims, but instead simply defended strict adherence to the terminology of our sources - whatever that may be.
- @PRODUCER. That's why I like Tomasevich: he rarely presumes to use his own words and instead uses his sources. The Chetniks themselves apparently used the term "cleansing actions", quite ahead of their time. And we can see that Tomasevich does not consider the 1941 directive to have been a "forgery" (which may well turn out to be a fringe conspiracy theory), and anyway, with him ordering "cleansing actions" the issue seems moot.
- In any case, the quote refers to the "second" and "third groups", what was the first group? --DIREKTOR (TALK) 06:56, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
- This is from a while back when I had access to the book and was working on the massacres of Muslims section, but I recall the first group being Croats. Edit: Found a link to the page that I quoted from (it's the Serbo-Croatian version however). [3] -- ◅PRODUCER (TALK) 07:41, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
- Excellent PRODUCER, thank you so much. We now have access to a superbly detailed and unbiased treatise on instances of Chetnik terror and their connection to the Supreme Headquarters (Mihailovic). The fact that the link is in Serbo-Croatian should not be a problem. The publication's original language is English, being first published in San Francisco, and it can be easily verified whether the text was translated faithfully. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 11:03, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
- This is from a while back when I had access to the book and was working on the massacres of Muslims section, but I recall the first group being Croats. Edit: Found a link to the page that I quoted from (it's the Serbo-Croatian version however). [3] -- ◅PRODUCER (TALK) 07:41, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
- Ok, I expanded my previous quote on the quotations page. This should clear up any questions. -- ◅PRODUCER (TALK) 19:48, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
- Thank you for that. Very useful references. If the article is going to use the terms "terrorism" or "genocide," we will need further info. Do you have quotes that give context? Sunray (talk) 19:22, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
- Sunray, the "cleansing" of ethnicities is called "ethnic cleansing". Your position on this is simply without grounds. If the sources use the term "cleansing" for these events that is the term we must use. The rest is your WP:OR, and your judgement that the term is not "defined enough". The term happens to be in use all over Wikipedia, and by providing context from the source we can easily remove any ambiguity. I shall simply never agree that this page and this page alone should ignore what the sources say in favour of your own standards of terminology with regard to these events. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 18:37, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
- Producer points out that Tomasevich attributes such statements to Mihailović. That seems to me to be important in an article on the latter. I also note that the term "ethnic cleansing" is not used but rather "cleansing." As pointed out at the top of this thread, this can mean various things from deportation to genocide. Nuujinn has agreed to look for the actual statements in Roberts or Tomasevich. This seems to me to be the kind of focus needed for this discussion. Sunray (talk) 16:44, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
- Yes. My primary concern is how to weigh the sources. For example, both Lerner and Mulaj attribute ethnic cleansing to Milhailovic, but it is more passing mention than significant coverage. Malcolm points to the likelihood that the instructions to which both Lerner and Mulaj allude was a forgery by M's subordinates, and I believe that is supported in Roberts and Tomosevich, but I need to find the relevant passages. I assume that we would give more weight to the works of historians focussing on Mihailovic than we would to those treating a broader topic which only briefly treat Milhailovic. --Nuujinn (talk) 12:27, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
The chetniks volume is in storage at my uni, I requested it yesterday. The occupation volume is in general holding, as is Roberts, Pavlowitch, Milazzo, and some others. I have had all of them in hand and cribbed notes, but did not write out full quotes, last year. --Nuujinn (talk) 12:28, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
- Excellent news. I have copies of Pavlowitch, Roberts, Ramet and some others if anyone wants me to look up a quote or page number.Fainites barleyscribs 12:40, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
This discussion seems to me to be useful and productive. With the sources produced, I think we may be ready to write something for the article. Should there be a separate section regarding war crimes, or should it be dealt with in one of the existing sections for World War II? Anyone interested in preparing a draft of the text? Sunray (talk) 17:29, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
- I also have a very interesting book called Balkan Holocausts? Serbian and Croatian victim-centred propaganda and the war in Yugoslavia by David Bruce MacDonald. It has sections on historical revisionism relating to WWII. He describes very carefully the parallel historical revisionism that both countries indulged in, trying to exonerate and "victim-centre" their side and paint the other side as - well - evil, anti-semitic, fascist bastards. I mention it because he specifically names Philip J. Cohen in his Serbia's Secret War as a pro-Croatian revisionist. He notes others too but I mention Cohen as he is an author who has been cited as a source. It was published in 2002. Fainites barleyscribs 19:31, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
- That sounds like a useful perspective to ensure NPOV. Tomasevich supports this view when he refers to: "...a terrible pattern of terror and counterterror [that] emerged in various parts of the country during the Second World War..." (Tomasevich, The Chetniks pp. 258-259). Sunray (talk) 21:29, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
- Yes. One of the things he discusses is "decontextualisation", for example, describing massacres or ethnic cleansing of one band or group against another out of any context of revenge or reprisals but simply as if it were part of an ideologically motivated grand plan. Each side has it's own sets of history books and sources. Key figures in this process are people like Stepinac and of course Chetntniks, Ustashe and other groups of armed forces. Other themes are equating organised genocidal actions with more isolated smaller massacres.Fainites barleyscribs 13:36, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
- That sounds like a useful perspective to ensure NPOV. Tomasevich supports this view when he refers to: "...a terrible pattern of terror and counterterror [that] emerged in various parts of the country during the Second World War..." (Tomasevich, The Chetniks pp. 258-259). Sunray (talk) 21:29, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
I have just put most of pp. 169-170 from Tomosevich's Chetniks on the quotations page. Context is critical, note that Tomosevich is showing that M. agreed with Moljevic's plan for a greater Serbia by referencing the instructions, which do use the word cleansing. However, Tomosevich claims that Moljevic's plans were based on expulsion of people, and not genocide, which is the major connotation of the modern term "ethnic cleansing" (at least in US English). On the basis of this passage, I feel that unqualified use of "ethnic cleansing" introduces an unneeded POV. I haven't gotten very far yet in this chapter, and there may be other areas in which Tomosevich does link M. directly to massacres or acts of what we would call genocide, but I do not think that is the case here. Whether or not this notion that the Serbs could simply move people around without resorting to force or violence to one degree or another is a valid question, but one which Tomosevich does not answer at this point in his text. --Nuujinn (talk) 15:50, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
- You need to focus less on Moljevic and more on Mihailovic. While Mihailovic supported Moljevic's plan (written in June 1941), he later had his own plan (written in December 1941). Tomasevich speculates that Mihailovic's plan was based on "removing" (question mark in the original as even Tomasevich is unsure of what Mihailovic precisely meant) the Muslim and Croat population. My previous quotes show that the Chetniks, especially Đurišić whom Tomasevich explicitly states the plan was sent to, implemented this "removal" through the use of mass terror - be it by expelling the populace or by massacring them. The term "ethnic cleansing" is not limited to genocide (which the Chetniks' actions have been described as by Hoare) as Princeton defines it as "the mass expulsion and killing of one ethnic or religious group in an area by another ethnic or religious group in that area." [4] The use of the term "ethnic cleansing" is most certainly qualified. -- ◅PRODUCER (TALK) 18:13, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
- Producer says that Tomasevich refers to "removing" the Muslims and Croats and puts a question mark beside the word "removing." That seems to support the citation I gave at the top of this section (Naimark). It seems to me that we need to be clear on what is being talked about. Is it mass expulsion or killing? Nuujinn has made the point that using the term "ethnic cleansing" introduces a particular POV and should be avoided. The comments by Tomasevich (both in the Preface to Vol II [5] and in the cite by Producer, above) suggest caution. Sunray (talk) 22:18, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
With regard to the terms "ethnic cleansing" and "genocide". Ethnic cleansing is defined in most sources (contrary perhaps to popular perception in the US and UK) simply as the "removal of the population of an ethnic group from a territory". Genocide, i.e. the killing of the members of an ethnic group - may be used as a means of ethnic cleansing. That is to say, ethnic cleansing may be achieved by a plurality of methods, with genocide on one side of the spectrum, and forced emigration on the other. Sources in general make a clear distinction that ethnic cleansing is simply not "genocide" in and of itself.
With the above in mind, I propose we do not censor the term "ethnic cleansing" - used by our sources(!) - but rather that we use it in the proper context. Making it plain that when the term refers to ethnic cleansing by genocide, and when it means ethnic cleansing by forced emigration (we have plentiful examples of both in WWII Yugoslavia). The term ethnic cleansing is not "POV" simply because it is not specific. It is used profusely by a vast number of high-quality scholarly publications, including our own, and as we all know, it has an entire article on enWiki. To assume its usage will imply genocide where that is unwarranted is an assumption that scholars, as well as Wiki editors, do not and will not make the exact meaning clear. This is Balkans history, and one might say the term applies here more than anywhere. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 07:57, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
- In addition, in these Balkans issues the term is more accurate than either "genocide" or "removal", in fact that is why it came into use. When a military group wishes to clear an area of an ethnicity, they typically kill most or all of the members they find, having already scared-off the rest of the target population, and they destroy or burn the homes and property of the target group preventing them from returning. This activity is not really "genocide" since most of the population leaves with their lives, and its not really "removal" or "forced emigration" since the target population was not actually "removed" or forced to leave by the militants (e.g. crowded into busses and shipped off). The activity, a "mixture" of genocide and forced removal, is only well defined by its goal, that is, the "cleansing" of the ethnic group from a territory. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 10:14, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
My meaning here is not easy to follow, so I'll try to sum it up (even if I do post a few extra words, for which I do apologize). At its core and definition, ethnic cleansing is activity with the purpose and goal of removing an ethnic group from a territory. It can be done by killing the group ("genocide"), it can be done by physically "removing" them, or it can be done by scaring them off by a campaign of terror, killing some and preventing the return of the others. The latter is most frequent in the Balkans in general. What I'm trying to say is that "genocide" is sometimes an accurate description of the activities of a militant group performing ethnic cleansing (ethnic cleansing by genocide), whereas "removal" or "expulsion" is sometimes not accurate at all and quite euphemistic since it the "cleansing" activity might include thousands of victims. This is why our sources quite wisely use the term "cleansing" or "ethnic cleansing", which denotes the goal, not the means(!), of the operation. The bottom line is, unless someone wishes to challenge the neutrality of the sources themselves, we should not presume to interfere with the sources' terminology in describing these extremely complex and controversial events. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 14:19, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
- Well the two authors on the quotes page who use the phrase are Malcolm and Lerner, though there is a direct translation from documents at the time referring to "cleansing". The problem with using "ethnic cleansing" in general though when it is not used by the main sources is that it is a modern formulation which, as you say, covers the gamut from creating a situation by the use of terror so that people leave of their own accord, through forceable removal or "bussing", to genocide. It would be preferable if it's meaning were always clear so one could use either "genocide" or "ethnic cleansing" but it's meaning doesn't seem to be that settled. If the relevant sources use it, that's fine but we shouldn't bandy it about retrospectively. We certainly shouldn't presume to decide upon it's use ourselves when it is not used by sources. It's far too inchoate. For example, is the refusal of Tito to allow the Serbs back into Kosovo into the lands that had been taken by collaborationist Albanians ethnic cleansing? Or was it only the initial removal of the Serbs that counts? When the Ustasha specifically encouraged Muslims to join with Catholic Croats in attacking and removing Serbs, are reprisals of Serbs against Muslims in their midst acts of ethnic cleansing or acts of pre-emptive self defence as claimed (and vice versa). Not that this is particularly relevant to this article, but you see what I mean. If people are massacring, removing, terrorising other groups context and accuracy is more important than the word.Fainites barleyscribs 15:38, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
- Agreed, and I would add that the term is used in titles of works (Mulaj, Lerner). In actual accounts, the term "cleansing" is used, and as Fainites has pointed out, our concern here must be with accuracy. As Malcom (1994) states: "there is no definite evidence that Draza Mihailovic himself ever called for ethnic cleansing." Unless and until we can find an actual attribution of ethnic cleansing to Mihailovic, to ensure NPOV, I can see no justification for use of the term. Now, are participants ready to begin writing? Sunray (talk) 16:24, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
- (ec)::I should point out that Lerner does not attribute the "abhorrant words" (p. 104) "ethnic cleansing" to Milhailovic, but rather only the term "cleansing". Malcolm in his work suggests the instructions from Milhailovic were a forgery and suggests that there is no direct link between M and "ethnic cleansing" So the sources that we have so far which use the term "ethnic cleansing" either do not use the term in direct reference to Milhailovic or do so (in the case of Malcolm) denying that there is direct evidence that Mihailovic called for ethnic cleansing. That the chetniks engaged in acts of terror is not in question, nor is the notion that Mihailovic knew what was happening, but absent a source attributing the term "ethnic cleansing" to Mihailovic's actions, we should not make that attribution ourselves. In addition, there is much in question as to the degree of control he had over the Chetniks in the field. Use of the term "cleansing" is perfectly appropriate as we have multiple sources which use that term directly in regard to Milhailovic. Going further than that is, I think, crossing the line into synth. "Ethnic cleansing" is, for better or worse, a loaded term we need not use, let's just stick to what the sources say and not draw our own conclusions. --Nuujinn (talk) 17:19, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
- Agreed, and I would add that the term is used in titles of works (Mulaj, Lerner). In actual accounts, the term "cleansing" is used, and as Fainites has pointed out, our concern here must be with accuracy. As Malcom (1994) states: "there is no definite evidence that Draza Mihailovic himself ever called for ethnic cleansing." Unless and until we can find an actual attribution of ethnic cleansing to Mihailovic, to ensure NPOV, I can see no justification for use of the term. Now, are participants ready to begin writing? Sunray (talk) 16:24, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
@Fainites, if the sources call it "ethnic cleansing" I am fine with calling it "ethnic cleansing", in whichever situation that might apply. I see no reason whatsoever why a term should not be used retrospectively (if the sources use it) - not only is the term "ethnic cleansing" used retrospectively in a huge number of scholarly publications, it is used retrospectively on Wikipedia itself as well (i.e. there are no policy-based grounds for avoiding it either). A vast host of scientific terms is used retrospecitely, just as "ethnic cleansing", "genocide" being another obvious example. As I said before, I see no real argument there whatsoever, and one needs a very good argument to avoid using a sourced term.
@Sunray, I do not see the difference between the terms "cleansing" (as referring to ethnic groups) and "ethnic cleansing". If I'm missing something, please point it out. That said, in line with the above view (since there really is no difference) I am also not opposed to using the word "cleansing" instead of "ethnic cleansing" if that would be more agreeable to you.
In general, I propose we use the term "cleansing actions" (with quotation marks) and in this quote the contemporary Chetnik terminology - as well as the sources themselves (far from applying any term retrospectively).
Re the connection with Mihailović himself. I am quite surprised at Nuujin's post above. We currently do have a strong "case" linking Mihailović to (ethnic) cleansing operations in Eastern Bosnia - in two distinct aspects (see Tomasevich on Chetnik mass terror)
- Firstly, Mihailović/Chetnik SHQ seems to be the author of the Chetnik ethnic policy in general. While two sources do state the claim that the document might have been a forgery, this does not justify our ignoring the document by a long shot. The policy ("Instructions") of the SHQ should be elaborated upon - with the claims of its alleged falsification by Chetnik defendants mentioned with attribution, i.e. "scholars XY state it might have been a forgery etc.". Though, in all objectivity, I cannot really add credence to the falsification claim, in light of Mihailović's and the Chetniks open adherence to Moljević's ideas of ethnic homogeneity.
- Secondly. The sources show that the "cleansing actions" in question, the "worst" ones of note, were done under the direction of the SHQ (Mihailović). I would quote the source itself but that would deny the point of having a quotation page, I've highlighted the relevant passages.
--DIREKTOR (TALK) 18:02, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
- We need to bear in mind that this is not an article on Chetnik mass terror. Thus, we should briefly review the evidence linking M. to "cleansing" operations (bearing in mind that Malcolm (p. 179) says there is none [6]--and probably including the quote from him on this). We could also set the section up with Tomasevich's disclaimers about terror and counter-terror during WWII, as set out in his Preface to Volume II. [7] When we use the vague (and euphemistic) term "cleansing," we should endeavor to clarify exactly what it means (deportation, mass transportation, genocide, or what).
- When participants refer to the quotations page, it would be helpful if they would specify the author and page and provide a link. Sunray (talk) 19:33, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
- I am not opposed to including, with attribution, what Malcolm has to say on this in his history of Bosnia - but I am strongly opposed to placing much weight on him as opposed to the more focused, detailed, and critically acclaimed work of Tomasevich. It must also be noted that the Sandžak (pronounced "Sanjak"), where much of the cleansing Tomasevich is referring to took place - is not in Bosnia.
- This would be my proposal:
- A brief introduction (three or four sentences) into Chetnik cleansing and terror activities in general, based on Tomasevich's treatise, but also including a sentence based on his disclaimers.
- A more detailed paragraph or two on the cleansing actions directly attributed to Mihailović himself. Including the Sandžak and eastern Bosnia massacres (Foča, Pljevlja, Bijelo Polje, Čajniče, etc.).
- A brief introduction (a couple of sentences) into the Moljević-based Chetnik ethnic policy, with an explanation on the Moljević-based "territorial proposals formulated by the Belgrade Chetnik Committee in the summer of 1941 and in September 1941".
- A paragraph on the "Instructions". This should explain what the instructions entail, and should end with an attributed statement about the possibility of the document being a forgery.
- With regard to the "Instructions". It must be understood why these are claimed to be a forgery. The most important point here is that, for whatever reason, the "Instructions" closely mimic both the Moljević theories and what the Chetniks actually did during WWII. The question is whether these were based on the actions by the forger, or whether the actions were based on the order. If the document was forged it is also possible that the Chetnik commanders, acting in accordance with Mihailović's general territorial policy and orders, needed a single, clear-cut document to absolve themselves to some measure. That is to say, there is little question that the "Instructions" lay out both Chetnik general policy and Chetnik actions, these things were actually done in great measure, - the only question is whether the document itself, a formal order from Mihailović, was a forgery.
- There is also little question whether Mihailović was indeed a proponent of Moljević's ethno-territorial theories (as we can see from his "territorial proposals") and was not averse to ethnic "cleansing actions" themselves (as we can see from the Sandžak and eastern Bosnia "actions"). --DIREKTOR (TALK) 08:43, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
- This would be my proposal:
- Do you have a source directly attributing the cleansing actions in the Sandžak and eastern Bosnia massacres (Foča, Pljevlja, Bijelo Polje, Čajniče, etc.) to Mihailović himself? Do you have a source explaining explaining why the instructions are claimed to be a forgery? And, perhaps most importantly, do you have a source that attributes the various massacres and cleansing actions to the M's instructions, rather than to a desire for revenge and settling scores, old and new, between the various bands and groups in the field? I could make any number of suppositions, guesses, or assertions regarding the situation, and I have lots of questions about what happened. Fortunately, I don't have to worry about those questions, as we are only supposed to reflect what sources say. Also, what you are proposing is, I think, putting undue emphasis on this particular issue, and we don't need to duplicate the massacre section in the chetnik article here. The paucity of good sources we have in terms of the instructions bothers me, I'll try to find something in Roberts and Pavlowitch on the issue. --Nuujinn (talk) 11:14, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
- Um, again, I'm more than a little surprised at your request. Nuujinn, the troops in southern Serbia and Montenegro at that time were under the direct control of the Chetnik SHQ, i.e. Mihailovic, who was there on the spot. Perhaps you're missing some context there. Tomasevich is the source, and he clearly states that cleansing actions were ordered by SHQ. Not only is it perfectly clear that Tomasevich, who is talking about the supreme command continuously, is referring to the supreme command in that sentence as well (as opposed to some new and unnamed authority) , but it is historically inconceivable that any other authority could hypothetically have done so. Tomasevich's text is clear in its description, I do hope the discussion has grown past playing such word games.
- As for M's Instructions directive, which is almost certainly authentic if the forgery claim is unsupported by evidence and originates with Karchmar, they constitute a criminal order and link Mihailovic directly, not only with the Sanjak and eastern Bosnia massacres, but also with Chetnik ethnic cleansing in general. It is both the policy of the Chetnik movement, instituted by its commander, and local "vendettas" we can thank for the killings and mass terror. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 13:34, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
Arbitrary break
Ok, Talk:Draža_Mihailović/quotations/#Pavlowitch.2C_Stevan_K._Hitler.27s_new_disorder:_the_Second_World_War_in_Yugoslavia Pavlowitch sheds some light on this, pp. 79-80, referring to Karchmar's work, which suggests that Djurišić forged the instructions, believing the M. might be dead, and wanting to have M. authority. I've requested Karchmar's work through interlibrary loan, should have it early next week. --Nuujinn (talk) 00:58, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
- Ah, well that explains it. Karchmar, Nuujinn, is a biased source and has been discredited on several separate occasions in Balkans discussions (and not by myself I'll add). The author is a Serb nationalist, an emigre I believe, who adopts a very slanted view on Balkans history. I'm not at home right now, but when I get back I'll see about his peer reviews myself. The whole forgery idea looked like a unsupported conspiracy theory from the start. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 13:34, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
Please do not alter quotations
Please only make changes to the quotations that make them more exactly reflect the source, not less. We should not be altering spellings, and I don't think we need wikilinks in the quotations. --Nuujinn (talk) 11:14, 6 July 2011 (UTC)