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:"Since we already have a far more nuanced, encyclopedic and well-developed discussion of whether the Soviet Union committed genocide in several other articles, this should be a redirect to one of them"—if it covers content in several other articles, that is a strong indication that it deserves a stand-alone article. In fact, as discussed in sources, "double genocide theory" is more specific than "Soviet Union committed genocide AND Nazi Germany committed genocide". Please take to AfD if you want the article deleted. ([[User talk:Buidhe|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Buidhe|c]]) '''[[User:buidhe|<span style="color: black">buidhe</span>]]''' 16:27, 10 December 2020 (UTC) |
:"Since we already have a far more nuanced, encyclopedic and well-developed discussion of whether the Soviet Union committed genocide in several other articles, this should be a redirect to one of them"—if it covers content in several other articles, that is a strong indication that it deserves a stand-alone article. In fact, as discussed in sources, "double genocide theory" is more specific than "Soviet Union committed genocide AND Nazi Germany committed genocide". Please take to AfD if you want the article deleted. ([[User talk:Buidhe|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Buidhe|c]]) '''[[User:buidhe|<span style="color: black">buidhe</span>]]''' 16:27, 10 December 2020 (UTC) |
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::Exactly. This article goes far beyond what is covered in the Holodomor genocide question article, which pretty much covers that specific topic and little else.--[[User:C.J. Griffin|C.J. Griffin]] ([[User talk:C.J. Griffin|talk]]) 16:32, 10 December 2020 (UTC) |
::Exactly. This article goes far beyond what is covered in the Holodomor genocide question article, which pretty much covers that specific topic and little else.--[[User:C.J. Griffin|C.J. Griffin]] ([[User talk:C.J. Griffin|talk]]) 16:32, 10 December 2020 (UTC) |
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:If you looked hard enough, you could easily find works advocating "double genocide" in exactly those words: |
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:{{quote|Rytų Europos ir Baltijos šalių dvigubo genocido (nacių ir sovietinio) istorines interpretacijas Rusijos valstybės ideologai aiškina kaip nepriim-tiną istorinį revizionizmą, „istorijos perrašinėjimą“ ir „Antrojo pasaulinio karo rezultatų kvestionavimą“²8. Rusijoje šio karo ideologija turi antivaka-rietišką pobūdį (Nikžentaitis 2017; Koposov 2018)²9, kartu ji prikelia „fa-šizmo“ terminologiją, taikomą Baltijos šalims tokiais atvejais kaip 2007 m. Estijos „Bronzinio kario“, Antrojo pasaulinio karo paminklo, perkėlimas Talin e ³0. Karo pabaigos iškilmingi minėjimai gegužės 9-ąją, pagal Rusijos valstybinių švenčių kalendorių – Pergalės dieną (rus. День Победы), šlo-vina pergalę ir dažnai pabrėžia Lietuvos išvadavimą iš nacių okupacijos, nutylėdami arba kvestionuodami sovietinę okupaciją³¹.[https://www.researchgate.net/publication/331354742_Tautybiu_atskirties_ir_bendrystes_ideologijos_istorinio_teisingumo_politikoje_viesoje_ir_kasdienineje_erdveje_Ideologies_of_Ethnic_Exclusion_and_Coexistence_in_the_Politics_of_Historical_Justice_Publi]}} ([[User talk:Buidhe|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Buidhe|c]]) '''[[User:buidhe|<span style="color: black">buidhe</span>]]''' 17:20, 10 December 2020 (UTC) |
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Concerns
It looks to me as if this new article on "Double Genocide theory" is a fairly unhistorical and one-sided account of what could properly be titled the Holocaust uniqueness debate. The new article only presents Katz' (who is a linguist btw., not a scholar of political science, genocide or communist studies or some field relevant to the comparative approach) POV and ignores all previous debate which is extensive.
Even the opening sentence is very misleading:
- "is a concept about the equality of the Holocaust and alleged [sic!] Communist crimes against humanity. The theory was proposed in 2008 after the Prague Declaration on European Conscience and Communism"
The theory of "uniqueness" didn't even exist before 1967, see Holocaust#Uniqueness
- "Adam Jones, professor at the University of British Columbia Okanagan, believes that claims of uniqueness for the Holocaust have become less common since the 1994 Rwandan genocide.[324] In 1997, the publication of The Black Book of Communism led to further debate on the comparison between Soviet and Nazi crimes; the book argued that Nazi crimes were not very different from the Soviet ones, and that Nazi methods were to a significant extent adopted from Soviet methods;[325] in the course of the debate, the term "Red Holocaust" appeared in discourse.[326][327] In The Holocaust Industry, Norman Finkelstein writes that the uniqueness theory first appeared in public discourse in 1967, but that it does not figure in scholarship of the Nazi Holocaust.[328]"
This is a very old debate reaching back to the days of Hannah Arendt, even back to the 1920s when comparisons between Communism and Fascism/Nazism were in vogue among the social democrats, and revived in the 1990s with the Black Book of Communism which discussed and provoked discussion of this exact issue, not something "introduced in 2008", and it seems clear that the uniqueness theory has become less in vogue in the last 20 years.
A more appropriate title for an article on this subject could be Holocaust uniqueness debate that could describe the entire debate since the uniqueness theory first appeared in 1967. If "Double Genocide theory" is a new theory introduced in 2008 (by whom? by Katz?), I question its notability as a stand-alone article, but his views could be described in Holocaust uniqueness debate. The Uniqueness debate currently has a section in the Holocaust article, but a separate article on this issue would be a worthwhile addition.
A disproportionate part of this article is currently used to attack a different article/topic, which is only tangentially relevant to the Holocaust in the first place (which is a declaration on communist crimes in general). Another relevant (but unfinished) article which already describes some of this debate is Comparison of Nazism and Stalinism. Tataral (talk) 06:06, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- As far as the Prague Declaration is concerned, it does not mention "Double Genocide" and it does not claim any crimes to be "equal" or exacly the same. It says that the crimes "need to be judged by their own terrible merits". The only "equality" demand contained in the declaration is "the principle of equal treatment and non-discrimination of victims of all the totalitarian regimes", which is not the same as saying the crimes were identical. Tataral (talk) 11:38, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- I've taken onboard your concerns and have attempted to fix up the article into something more encyclopaedic. --Nug (talk) 11:51, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- The current title is OR, but as Tataral notes, the Holocaust uniqueness debate is a real phenomenon. The contents of the article as it stands, however, do not suffice for such a renaming.Estlandia (dialogue) 11:58, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- I've taken onboard your concerns and have attempted to fix up the article into something more encyclopaedic. --Nug (talk) 11:51, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- The article looks much better now, but as Estlandia notes, developing it into a discussion of the very real Holocaust uniqueness debate would be a good idea . Tataral (talk) 12:00, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, I think both you and Estlandia make a good point with regard to Holocaust uniqueness debate, I'll have to think about the best way to approach it, whether to rename this article or get it deleted and start again. --Nug (talk) 12:14, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- By all means, create an article on the Uniqueness of The Holocaust. It is surely a notable topic. In fact I created the redirect already in July 2010 in anticipation of the article. This however is not the article on the general discussion on the uniqueness of the Holocaust or on comparison of genocides. This topic, a specific Western academic and political debate spans a limited time and involves a limited amount of people. I will explain – possible someplace else – why this specific debate is notable in itself. –- Petri Krohn (talk) 23:03, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- The seems to be overlap with Holocaust trivialization debate. Are they separate topics? It seems that some writers do accept the Holocaust equivalency and therefore we could include both sides of the issue. Explain who believes in equivalency, why they hold this belief, and how the academic community and political groups have responded to their beliefs. TFD (talk) 15:23, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- My understanding is that the Holocaust trivialization debate also includes for example the use of the word "Holocaust" in reference to other phenomena which have nothing to do with genocide (although the word was originally used for the Armenian genocide), or comparisons by animal rights groups with the Holocaust, whereas the Holocaust uniqueness debate is a debate on whether the Holocaust is different from other genocides (arguably, no genocides are identical). They appear to be related but somewhat distinct debates, but Holocaust trivialization debate could be seen as a sub topic of Holocaust uniqueness debate and might be covered in the same article. Holocaust trivialization debate is also just a stub. Tataral (talk) 15:37, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- Examples from the trivialization debate: abortion holocaust, animal holocaust, environmental holocaust, tobacco holocaust, human rights holocaust, nuclear holocaust. PETA's use of Holocaust metaphors/comparisons has been a major issue in recent years for example[1][2]. Tataral (talk) 15:40, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- One possible solution could be an article on Holocaust uniqueness and trivialization debate Tataral (talk) 15:42, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- My understanding is that the Holocaust trivialization debate also includes for example the use of the word "Holocaust" in reference to other phenomena which have nothing to do with genocide (although the word was originally used for the Armenian genocide), or comparisons by animal rights groups with the Holocaust, whereas the Holocaust uniqueness debate is a debate on whether the Holocaust is different from other genocides (arguably, no genocides are identical). They appear to be related but somewhat distinct debates, but Holocaust trivialization debate could be seen as a sub topic of Holocaust uniqueness debate and might be covered in the same article. Holocaust trivialization debate is also just a stub. Tataral (talk) 15:37, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
Sources for future use
Here are some references for future use:
- Zuroff, Efraim (January 13, 2012). "Don't rehabilitate the guilty". Haaretz.
-- Petri Krohn (talk) 10:07, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- Dovilé Budryté's chapter "We call it Genocide": Soviet Deportations and Repression in the Memory of Lithuanians in Robert Frey's 2004 book The genocidal temptation: Auschwitz, Hiroshima, Rwanda, and beyond is a good source for the development of the "double genocide theory" in Lithuania[3]. --Nug (talk) 19:43, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
Moving Lithuanian section
I have moved the Lithuanian part into Prague Declaration on European Conscience and Communism#Lithuania. I do not see how Rwanda case can be used as an argument in Prague Declaration dispute or Prague Declaration case in Rwanda dispute. Listing cases in this article automatically implies that the correctness of the "double genocide", automatically assuming that the genocide A has been much less than the genocide B while it can be the opposite. When there is no clear established view, it is possible to achieve more neutrality by discussing unrelated cases separately. Sedna2001 (talk) 12:03, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
Proposed rename
- The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: No move. Cúchullain t/c 20:14, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
Double Genocide theory → Rwanda double genocide controversy – The current name is biased, it automatically assumes the right and wrong sides. Conclusions must be seen from the sources and be derived from consensus rather than putting claims into the article header. Sedna2001 (talk) 12:09, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- I assume you meant controversy. I've edited the request accordingly. --BDD (talk) 15:17, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- Definitely needs downcasing. Tony (talk) 08:05, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose While the term either gained prominence or was developed to describe opinions concerning the Rwanda genocide, it is now used to describe similar opinions, for example in Forgotten Genocides, "Denial and Myth-making", pp. 12-14.[4] I notice that material not relating to Rwanda was removed. TFD (talk) 15:30, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Opening sentence
Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to me that the opening sentence doesn't parse correctly:
- The Double Genocide is a thesis which states that comparison of certain genocides can result in trivialisation and so claimed that it is one of the tools of denialism.
It's the "and so claimed that" bit that doesn't sound right to me. Should it just be "so claims" to match the tense of "states"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.244.70.186 (talk) 16:51, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
Unreliable source? Really?
It doesn't make sense to call Dovid Katz's blog, Defending History, an "unreliable source", since Katz is one of the main subjects of the article. I would call it a web-published periodical (it is mainly an aggregator, as far as I can tell). Calling it "unreliable" seems like a pre-emptive attempt at censorship by disallowing what Katz has to say, frankly. I hope wikipedia's policies have made some progress in their attitudes toward blogs, now that print newspapers are in (seemingly terminal) decline. 72.89.72.241 (talk) 17:41, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
Split
There seem to be two things here:
- Group X commits genocide against Group Y and Group Y commits genocide against Group X (example: X = Hutu, Y = Tutsi)
- Group X commits genocide against Group Y and Group Y commits genocide against Group Z (example: X = Soviets, Y = Lithuanian Christians, Z = Lithuanian Jews)
Has anyone actually made a general case for either of those propositions? At the moment the article looks like two different special cases, one for the Holocaust-Soviet argument and the other for Rwanda. Has anyone suggested that (a) those two cases are similar to each other or (b) that either case is part of a wider pattern?
- If YES:
- The opening...
- Double genocide is an argument that the victims of a genocide in their turn committed genocide against the perpetrators
- ..is badly phrased in any case: it suggests that someone believes that in ANY genocide the victims are also perpetrators. Better for the above cases would respectively be:
- The opening...
- If NO:
- discussing them together merely because different people have used the same formula to describe them is WP:SYNTH; better would be a disambiguation:
- Double genocide may refer to
- In the Holocaust uniqueness debate, the contention that Eastern Europe in World War II was simultaneously the victim of two genocides, one Nazi and the other Soviet
- In the Rwandan genocide, the contention that Tutsis perpetrated genocide against Hutus as well as vice versa
- Double genocide may refer to
- discussing them together merely because different people have used the same formula to describe them is WP:SYNTH; better would be a disambiguation:
jnestorius(talk) 14:54, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
- NO - I've had a look at the literature and there isn't really anything that links the two forms of "double genocide" together, so I agree that this page ought to be made into a disambiguation as you suggest. --Nug (talk) 10:03, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
- NO - Some time had passed, but no sources appeared which describe "double genocide" as an abstract concept. Instead, this article has become a synthesis magnet for various tit-for-tat killings. Staszek Lem (talk) 17:26, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
- Comment Double genocide is called an "idea", a "thesis", a "theory", a "notion", a "myth", and maybe a few things more. As such it is not simply an argument that the victims of a genocide in their turn committed genocide against the perpetrators. But whereas it may be advisable to deal with the uses of the thesis of "double genocide" in Rwanda and (mostly) in Eastern European countries seperately, a disambiguation page which only links to Holocaust and Rwandan genocide is not the solution, because there exists sizable literature specifically dealing with double genocide as a thesis. Therefore the content has to be preserved.--Assayer (talk) 14:47, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
- I agree with the proposal to make this article into a disambiguation page as proposed. The entire article is really original research, WP:SYNTH and POV; in fact the article is itself a form of genocide denialism, by its denial of genocides committed by the Soviet Union and its smearing, quite in the Putinist tradition, of all efforts to come to terms with communist crimes in central and eastern Europe. There now appears to be consensus to implement the disambiguation page option. --Tataral (talk) 13:59, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
Seventy Years Declaration of 2012
I have pov tagged this section. It is full of completely unacceptable pov language, like " alleged" and "glorification" and "collaborationist nationalist war criminals" and "their supposed fight against Communism" and "advocates for ongoing genuine Holocaust education" (does that last one weasely imply that current education is not "genuine"?). Possible overemphasis issues too, since it appears to be an unofficial, privately produced "declaration" and the source for the endorsements is the declaration's own website. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 16:15, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
- Well, " has been signed by 70 parliamentarians from 19 EU countries,", so it does not matter how it was produced. Hardly an overemphasis, because it caused quite a stir among high-level politicians. Staszek Lem (talk) 17:12, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
As for pov language, some of it may have come directly from the declaration. We may analyze them one by one. Staszek Lem (talk) 17:12, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
- "alleged" - correct word, because it is an adjective to the quoted text:
its alleged "attempts to obfuscate the Holocaust...
and indicates that it is the allegation of the authors of the 70YD. - "glorification", "collaborationist" - the language/opinion of the authors; expresses their POV (it is wikipedian's POV which is forbidden in wikipedia)
- "their supposed fight against Communism" - that's exactly right. It was a major pretext of Nazi Germany: "protecting Europe from Jewish Bolshevism" It is possible that Lithuanians fought to free their country from Soviets, but killing off Jews and Gypsies and Poles along this way is hardly "fight against Communism".
- "genuine" - I agree sounds weasely, but makes sense in the context of the author's opinion about the alleged trivialization of Holocaust.
Conclusion: yes, the language of the section looks POV, but it is POV of the authors of the declaration. And the solution of possible WP:NPOV issue is to make it more prominent that nearly whole text of the section is the opinion of the 70YD. Staszek Lem (talk) 17:12, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
- None of those words are correct. If it is the declaration's opinion that such-and-such is such-and-such, then the content has to be worded to make that clear. The content cannot be worded as if it were an undisputed fact that such-and-such is such-and-such. Nor is Wikipedia a press release for the advocators of this declaration (or of any organization). If, basically, even if it were to be correctly worded, almost all the content in that section comprises a reproduction of the assertions of the declaration, then this would be overemphasis. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 15:35, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
- That's exactly what I wrote:
And the solution of possible WP:NPOV issue is to make it more prominent that nearly whole text of the section is the opinion of the 70YD
. As for "overemphasis", no it is not; it is the representation of the declaration. ReNone of those words are correct
-- prove it. reNor is Wikipedia a press release
how it that "press-release"?comprises a reproduction
- noit reproduction, but summary, which is what wikipedia does. Staszek Lem (talk) 19:46, 18 April 2017 (UTC)- Wikipedia content should not represent extreme viewpoints or assertions made by others as if those viewpoints and assertions are true. Since you appear to want this content to remain, please convert it into quotations. If not, I will delete the offending content. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 21:06, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
- In Wikipedia we do not overuse quotations. Instead, we summarize and make an attribution. Attribution of all statements in the contested section are clear. Staszek Lem (talk) 23:36, 27 September 2017 (UTC)
- Wikipedia content should not represent extreme viewpoints or assertions made by others as if those viewpoints and assertions are true. Since you appear to want this content to remain, please convert it into quotations. If not, I will delete the offending content. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 21:06, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
- That's exactly what I wrote:
- None of those words are correct. If it is the declaration's opinion that such-and-such is such-and-such, then the content has to be worded to make that clear. The content cannot be worded as if it were an undisputed fact that such-and-such is such-and-such. Nor is Wikipedia a press release for the advocators of this declaration (or of any organization). If, basically, even if it were to be correctly worded, almost all the content in that section comprises a reproduction of the assertions of the declaration, then this would be overemphasis. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 15:35, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
Conspiracy theory
Do we have a source for this being a conspiracy theory? (t · c) buidhe 20:53, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
- Buidhe, well, we say "[t]he theory, which minimizes or excuses local participation in the Holocaust as a form of revenge against perceived Jewish complicity in Soviet repression, first became popular in the Baltic States during the 1990s", cited to a source whose quote says "[s]upporters of this theory, which became very popular in the mid-1990s, claimed that Lithuanian Jews actively participated in the repression of the local population, and therefore the collaboration with the Nazis and participation in the Holocaust were merely acts of revenge." Davide King (talk) 15:11, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
- Agree with Buidhe, this does not make anything a "conspiration theory".(KIENGIR (talk) 10:38, 29 November 2020 (UTC))
Unnecessary fork
This is an unncessary POV fork of Holodomor genocide question which presents, in a one-sided manner, only the current Russian view that the Soviets never committed any genocide whatsoever, and takes that particular POV as its starting point. While not everyone agrees that the Soviet Union's crimes should be defined as genocide, and while there is a larger debate on which crimes that should be considered genocides (not just those of the Soviet Union, but others like the Armenian Genocide, Srebrenica massacre etc.), it's a fairly mainstream perspective (not just in the Baltics) that some of the crimes of the Soviet Union were of a genocidal nature. For instance, the Holodomor is formally recognised as genocide by 16 countries as discussed in that article, including the United States which established the Holodomor Genocide Memorial in 2015. At best the claim that the Soviet Union didn't commit genocide is a highly contentious claim that many or most in the West would disagree with, at worst it's described by many in the West as Russian revisionism and disinfo, and e.g. as denial of the Holodomor, a topic we have a lengthy article on, and partially outlawed as a form of genocide denialism in some of the affected countries.
The claim that only the Baltic states have claimed that the Soviet Union committed genocide, or that the claim only surfaced in the Baltics in the 1990s, is completely wrong as for example the article Holodomor genocide question clearly shows, with discussion of scholars' views on Soviet genocide dating back decades before the 1990s. There is also no evidence of anyone actually advocating anything called "double genocide". It's essentially a strawman, and a relatively obscure term in the discussion of the Holodomor genocide question, only used rhetorically by a few people who advocate the contentious Russian perspective that the Soviet Union didn't commit genocide, a view that people in Central/Central Eastern Europe tend to view as Russian negationism.
Since we already have a far more nuanced, encyclopedic and well-developed discussion of whether the Soviet Union committed genocide in several other articles, this should be a redirect to one of them. --Tataral (talk) 15:44, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
- "Since we already have a far more nuanced, encyclopedic and well-developed discussion of whether the Soviet Union committed genocide in several other articles, this should be a redirect to one of them"—if it covers content in several other articles, that is a strong indication that it deserves a stand-alone article. In fact, as discussed in sources, "double genocide theory" is more specific than "Soviet Union committed genocide AND Nazi Germany committed genocide". Please take to AfD if you want the article deleted. (t · c) buidhe 16:27, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
- Exactly. This article goes far beyond what is covered in the Holodomor genocide question article, which pretty much covers that specific topic and little else.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 16:32, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
- If you looked hard enough, you could easily find works advocating "double genocide" in exactly those words:
(t · c) buidhe 17:20, 10 December 2020 (UTC)Rytų Europos ir Baltijos šalių dvigubo genocido (nacių ir sovietinio) istorines interpretacijas Rusijos valstybės ideologai aiškina kaip nepriim-tiną istorinį revizionizmą, „istorijos perrašinėjimą“ ir „Antrojo pasaulinio karo rezultatų kvestionavimą“²8. Rusijoje šio karo ideologija turi antivaka-rietišką pobūdį (Nikžentaitis 2017; Koposov 2018)²9, kartu ji prikelia „fa-šizmo“ terminologiją, taikomą Baltijos šalims tokiais atvejais kaip 2007 m. Estijos „Bronzinio kario“, Antrojo pasaulinio karo paminklo, perkėlimas Talin e ³0. Karo pabaigos iškilmingi minėjimai gegužės 9-ąją, pagal Rusijos valstybinių švenčių kalendorių – Pergalės dieną (rus. День Победы), šlo-vina pergalę ir dažnai pabrėžia Lietuvos išvadavimą iš nacių okupacijos, nutylėdami arba kvestionuodami sovietinę okupaciją³¹.[5]