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::*[[User:Scjessey]] Don’t be silly. Demonstrably false to claim that, as already shown. Try googling BBC in February or March, note “China virus” is the lead *tag*, and see occasional use in text or of “Chinese virus”. It’s also a phrasing seen occasionally in other places [https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-02-16/opec-underestimates-china-virus-s-impact-on-oil-demand Bloomberg], in [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-health-who-evolution/every-scenario-on-the-table-in-china-virus-outbreak-whos-tedros-idUSKBN20B1OF Reuters], in [https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-00434-5 Nature]. I have also seen a mention of this as part of Chinese government press manuvering in [https://qz.com/1812162/china-mobilizes-against-medias-malicious-coronavirus-coverage/ Quartz] at 5 March. Look, this is just a RECENTISM, two or three days ago ‘Trump grilled on use of’ story went a bit viral and here we are with a flap over trivia that has shown no enduring note and no impact. At least it’s past a 48-hour waiting period. Cheers [[User:Markbassett|Markbassett]] ([[User talk:Markbassett|talk]]) 21:05, 21 March 2020 (UTC) |
::*[[User:Scjessey]] Don’t be silly. Demonstrably false to claim that, as already shown. Try googling BBC in February or March, note “China virus” is the lead *tag*, and see occasional use in text or of “Chinese virus”. It’s also a phrasing seen occasionally in other places [https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-02-16/opec-underestimates-china-virus-s-impact-on-oil-demand Bloomberg], in [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-health-who-evolution/every-scenario-on-the-table-in-china-virus-outbreak-whos-tedros-idUSKBN20B1OF Reuters], in [https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-00434-5 Nature]. I have also seen a mention of this as part of Chinese government press manuvering in [https://qz.com/1812162/china-mobilizes-against-medias-malicious-coronavirus-coverage/ Quartz] at 5 March. Look, this is just a RECENTISM, two or three days ago ‘Trump grilled on use of’ story went a bit viral and here we are with a flap over trivia that has shown no enduring note and no impact. At least it’s past a 48-hour waiting period. Cheers [[User:Markbassett|Markbassett]] ([[User talk:Markbassett|talk]]) 21:05, 21 March 2020 (UTC) |
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:::*Fine, Mark. You go ahead and be on the side of xenophobia. I'm content to not hate foreigners, especially as I ''am'' one. -- [[User:Scjessey|Scjessey]] ([[User talk:Scjessey|talk]]) 21:23, 21 March 2020 (UTC) |
:::*Fine, Mark. You go ahead and be on the side of xenophobia. I'm content to not hate foreigners, especially as I ''am'' one. -- [[User:Scjessey|Scjessey]] ([[User talk:Scjessey|talk]]) 21:23, 21 March 2020 (UTC) |
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[[File:Protractor Rapporteur Degrees V3.jpg|thumb|left|<!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:SPECIFICO|SPECIFICO]] ([[User talk:SPECIFICO#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/SPECIFICO|contribs]]) 19:37, 22 March 2020 (UTC)</small>]] |
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[[File:Protractor Rapporteur Degrees V3.jpg|thumb|left]] |
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::::::::::([[User:SPECIFICO]] you forgot to sign this image you just stuck in the middle) |
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:::::*Look, just don’t spout hyperbolic narratives “everyone except xenophobes” and you won’t be open to being shown silly. Due diligence of checking Google first is a good idea, especially for such EXCEPTIONAL claims. And again, this is all just a trivial flap about wording. Reasonable of Chinese government to pursue, open for President Trump to do or not. Not something to presume a whole lot from, and simply not a big story with BLP significance. We shouldn’t put in a line for every time a reporter checks his phrasing, the Internet isn’t big enough for that. Cheers [[User:Markbassett|Markbassett]] ([[User talk:Markbassett|talk]]) 21:38, 21 March 2020 (UTC) |
:::::*Look, just don’t spout hyperbolic narratives “everyone except xenophobes” and you won’t be open to being shown silly. Due diligence of checking Google first is a good idea, especially for such EXCEPTIONAL claims. And again, this is all just a trivial flap about wording. Reasonable of Chinese government to pursue, open for President Trump to do or not. Not something to presume a whole lot from, and simply not a big story with BLP significance. We shouldn’t put in a line for every time a reporter checks his phrasing, the Internet isn’t big enough for that. Cheers [[User:Markbassett|Markbassett]] ([[User talk:Markbassett|talk]]) 21:38, 21 March 2020 (UTC) |
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::::::*{{ping|Scjessey}} I must remind you to remain [[Wikipedia:Civility|civil]] during talk page discussions. As you know, [[Wikipedia:No personal attacks|personal attacks]] are a form of [[Wikipedia:Disruptive editing|disruptive editing]] and are a violation of policy that, when protracted, can result in a block. [[User:Ergo Sum|'''<span style="color:#0645AD">Ergo Sum</span>''']] 17:42, 22 March 2020 (UTC) |
::::::*{{ping|Scjessey}} I must remind you to remain [[Wikipedia:Civility|civil]] during talk page discussions. As you know, [[Wikipedia:No personal attacks|personal attacks]] are a form of [[Wikipedia:Disruptive editing|disruptive editing]] and are a violation of policy that, when protracted, can result in a block. [[User:Ergo Sum|'''<span style="color:#0645AD">Ergo Sum</span>''']] 17:42, 22 March 2020 (UTC) |
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Highlighted open discussions
- None.
Current consensus
NOTE: It is recommended to link to this list in your edit summary when reverting, as:[[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus|current consensus]] item [n]
To ensure you are viewing the current list, you may wish to .
official White House portrait as the infobox image. (Dec 2016, Jan 2017, Oct 2017, March 2020) (temporarily suspended by #19 following copyright issues on the inauguration portrait, enforced when an official public-domain portrait was released on 31 October 2017)
1. Use theQueens, New York City, U.S.
" in the infobox. (Nov 2016, Oct 2018, Feb 2021) "New York City" de-linked. (September 2020)
gaining a majority of the U.S. Electoral College" and "
receiving a smaller share of the popular vote nationwide", without quoting numbers. (Nov 2016, Dec 2016) (Superseded by #15 since 11 February 2017)
Oct 2016) In the lead section, just write: Removed from the lead per #47.
Forbes estimates his net worth to be [$x.x] billion.
(July 2018, July 2018)
Many of his public statements were controversial or false." in the lead. (Sep 2016, February 2017, wording shortened per April 2017, upheld with July 2018) (superseded by #35 since 18 February 2019)
without prior military or government service
". (Dec 2016)
Include a link to Trump's Twitter account in the "External links" section. (Jan 2017) Include a link to an archive of Trump's Twitter account in the "External links" section. (Jan 2021)
10. Keep Barron Trump's name in the list of children and wikilink it, which redirects to his section in Family of Donald Trump per AfD consensus. (Jan 2017, Nov 2016)
12. The article title is Donald Trump, not Donald J. Trump. (RM Jan 2017, RM June 2019)
13. Auto-archival is set for discussions with no comments for 14 days. Manual archival is allowed for (1) closed discussions, 24 hours after the closure, provided the closure has not been challenged, and (2) "answered" edit requests, 24 hours after the "answer", provided there has been no follow-on discussion after the "answer". (Jan 2017) (amended with respect to manual archiving, to better reflect common practice at this article) (Nov 2019)
14. Omit mention of Trump's alleged bathmophobia/fear of slopes. (Feb 2017)
Trump won the general election on November 8, 2016, …"). Accordingly the pre-RfC text (Diff 8 Jan 2017) has been restored, with minor adjustments to past tense (Diff 11 Feb 2018). No new changes should be applied without debate. (RfC Feb 2017, Jan 2017, Feb 2017, Feb 2017) In particular, there is no consensus to include any wording akin to "losing the popular vote". (RfC March 2017) (Superseded by local consensus on 26 May 2017 and lead section rewrite on 23 June 2017)
Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is the 45th and current president of the United States. Before entering politics, he was a businessman and television personality." The hatnote is simply {{Other uses}}. (April 2017, RfC April 2017, April 2017, April 2017, April 2017, July 2017, Dec 2018) Amended by lead section rewrite on 23 June 2017 and removal of inauguration date on 4 July 2018. Lower-case "p" in "president" per Dec 2018 and MOS:JOBTITLES RfC Oct 2017. Wikilinks modified per April 2020. Wikilink modified again per July 2020. "45th" de-linked. (Jan 2021)
Wharton School (BS Econ.)", does not mention Fordham University. (April 2017, April 2017, Aug 2020, Dec 2020)
20. Mention protests in the lead section with this exact wording: His election and policies
(June 2017, May 2018) (Note: In February 2021, when he was no longer president, the verb tense was changed from "have sparked" to "sparked", without objection.)
have sparked numerous protests.
22. Do not call Trump a "liar" in Wikipedia's voice. Falsehoods he uttered can be mentioned, while being mindful of calling them "lies", which implies malicious intent. (RfC Aug 2017)
Trump ordered a travel ban on citizens from several Muslim-majority countries, citing security concerns; after legal challenges, the Supreme Court upheld the policy's third revision.(Aug 2017, Nov 2017, Dec 2017, Jan 2018, Jan 2018) Wording updated (July 2018) and again (Sep 2018).
25. Do not add web archives to cited sources which are not dead. (Dec 2017, March 2018)
26. Do not include opinions by Michael Hayden and Michael Morell that Trump is a "useful fool […] manipulated by Moscow"
or an "unwitting agent of the Russian Federation"
. (RfC April 2018)
27. State that Trump falsely claimed
that Hillary Clinton started the Barack Obama birther
rumors. (April 2018, June 2018)
28. Include, in the Wealth section, a sentence on Jonathan Greenberg's allegation that Trump deceived him in order to get on the Forbes 400 list. (June 2018, June 2018)
29. Include material about the Trump administration family separation policy in the article. (June 2018)
30. Supersedes #24. The lead includes: "Many of his comments and actions have been characterized as racially charged or racist.
" (RfC Sep 2018, Oct 2018, RfC May 2019)
31. Do not mention Trump's office space donation to Jesse Jackson's Rainbow/Push Coalition in 1999. (Nov 2018)
32. Omit from the lead the fact that Trump is the first sitting U.S. president to meet with a North Korean supreme leader. (RfC July 2018, Nov 2018)
33. Do not mention "birtherism" in the lead section. (RfC Nov 2018)
34. Refer to Ivana Zelníčková as a Czech model, with a link to Czechs (people), not Czechoslovakia (country). (Jan 2019)
Trump has made many false or misleading statements during his campaign and presidency. The statements have been documented by fact-checkers, and the media have widely described the phenomenon as unprecedented in American politics.(RfC Feb 2019)
37. Resolved: Content related to Trump's presidency should be limited to summary-level about things that are likely to have a lasting impact on his life and/or long-term presidential legacy. If something is borderline or debatable, the resolution does not apply. (June 2019)
38. Do not state in the lead that Trump is the wealthiest U.S. president ever. (RfC June 2019)
39. Supersedes #21 and #36. Do not include any paragraph regarding Trump's mental health or mental fitness for office. Do not bring up for discussion again until an announced formal diagnosis or WP:MEDRS-level sources are provided. This does not prevent inclusion of content about temperamental fitness for office. (RfC Aug 2019, July 2021)
40. Include, when discussing Trump's exercise or the lack thereof: He has called golfing his "primary form of exercise", although he usually does not walk the course. He considers exercise a waste of energy, because he believes the body is "like a battery, with a finite amount of energy" which is depleted by exercise.
(RfC Aug 2019)
41. Omit book authorship (or lack thereof) from the lead section. (RfC Nov 2019)
42. House and Senate outcomes of the impeachment process are separated by a full stop. For example: He was impeached by the House on December 18, 2019, for abuse of power and obstruction of Congress. He was acquitted of both charges by the Senate on February 5, 2020.
(Feb 2020)
43. The rules for edits to the lead are no different from those for edits below the lead. For edits that do not conflict with existing consensus: Prior consensus is NOT required. BOLD edits are allowed, subject to normal BRD process. The mere fact that an edit has not been discussed is not a valid reason to revert it. (March 2020)
44. The lead section should mention North Korea, focusing on Trump's meetings with Kim and some degree of clarification that they haven't produced clear results. (RfC May 2020)
46. Use the caption "Official portrait, 2017" for the infobox image. (Aug 2020, Jan 2021)
47. Do not mention Trump's net worth or Forbes ranking (or equivalents from other publications) in the lead, nor in the infobox. (Sep 2020)
48. Supersedes #45. Trump's reaction to the COVID-19 pandemic should be mentioned in the lead section. There is no consensus on specific wording, but the status quo is Trump reacted slowly to the COVID-19 pandemic; he minimized the threat, ignored or contradicted many recommendations from health officials, and promoted false information about unproven treatments and the availability of testing.
(Oct 2020, RfC Aug 2020)
49. Supersedes #35. Include in lead: Trump has made many false and misleading statements during his campaigns and presidency, to a degree unprecedented in American politics.
(Dec 2020)
50. Supersedes #17. The lead sentence is: Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is an American politician, media personality, and businessman who served as the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021.
(March 2021), amended (July 2021), inclusion of politician (RfC September 2021)
51. Include in the lead that many of Trump's comments and actions have been characterized as misogynistic. (Aug 2021 and Sep 2021)
52. Supersedes #23. The lead should contain a summary of Trump's actions on immigration, including the Muslim travel ban (cf. item 23), the wall, and the family separation policy. (September 2021)
53. The lead should mention that Trump promotes conspiracy theories. (October 2021)
54. Include in the lead that, quote, Scholars and historians rank Trump as one of the worst presidents in U.S. history.
(October 2021)
55. Regarding Trump's comments on the 2017 far-right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia
, do not wiki-link "Trump's comments" in this manner. (RfC December 2021)
56. Retain the content that Trump never confronted Putin over its alleged bounties against American soldiers in Afghanistan
but add context. Current wording can be altered or contextualized; no consensus was achieved on alternate wordings. (RfC November 2021) Trump's expressions of doubt regarding the Russian Bounties Program should be included in some capacity, though there there is no consensus on a specific way to characterize these expressed doubts. (RfC March 2022)
57. Do not mention in the lead Gallup polling that states Trump's the only president to never reach 50% approval rating. (RfC January 2022)
58. Use inline citations in the lead for the more contentious and controversial statements. Editors should further discuss which sentences would benefit from having inline citations. (RfC May 2022, discussion on what to cite May 2022)
59. Do not label or categorize Trump as a far-right politician. (RfC August 2022)
60. Insert the links described in the RfC January 2023.
61. When a thread is started with a general assertion that the article is biased for or against Trump (i.e., without a specific, policy-based suggestion for a change to the article), it is to be handled as follows:
- Reply briefly with a link to Talk:Donald Trump/Response to claims of bias.
- Close the thread using
{{archive top}}
and{{archive bottom}}
, referring to this consensus item. - Wait at least 24 hours per current consensus #13.
- Manually archive the thread.
This does not apply to posts that are clearly in bad faith, which are to be removed on sight. (May 2023)
62. The article's description of the five people who died during and subsequent to the January 6 Capitol attack should avoid a) mentioning the causes of death and b) an explicit mention of the Capitol Police Officer who died. (RfC July 2023)
63. Supersedes #18. The alma mater field of the infobox reads: "University of Pennsylvania (BS)". (September 2023)
64. Omit the {{Very long}}
tag. (January 2024)
65. Mention the Abraham Accords in the article; no consensus was achieved on specific wordings. (RfC February 2024)
I really think the lead needs something like "Trump was also president during the coronavirus crisis." I made the change on Saturday but was reverted. pbp 12:37, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
- Disagree - lots of people are in power over the planet while the pandemic is ongoing. There's no reason to highlight this one instance. Chaheel Riens (talk) 13:14, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
- Disagree. This is the top-level biography of Trump and the lead already includes too much detail about the presidency part of his life. ―Mandruss ☎ 13:21, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
- You consider ONE SENTENCE about a global pandemic that has shut down a country of 320 million "too much detail"? pbp 14:43, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, for the lead of this article, which is about an entire life of a man who was widely known and widely written about for decades before he stumbled into the presidency less than four years ago. It's just amazing how many things about his presidency are just too monumentally important to omit from this lead.By the way, lead summarizes body, so we couldn't add this to the lead until it's mentioned somewhere in the body. A browser search of the article for "virus" finds zero occurrences. But I would still oppose this in the lead, even after that's taken care of. ―Mandruss ☎ 15:03, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
- I agree.--Jack Upland (talk) 18:39, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)Mandruss, what I'm getting from your comments is that you had a lot of gripes with the article before my proposal and you're taking it out on my proposal. And, yes, coronavirus is easily one of the 5-10 most important things of his presidency, and if you devote 1-2 sentences to each of the most important things, that's only 1-2 paragraphs. pbp 18:41, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, for the lead of this article, which is about an entire life of a man who was widely known and widely written about for decades before he stumbled into the presidency less than four years ago. It's just amazing how many things about his presidency are just too monumentally important to omit from this lead.By the way, lead summarizes body, so we couldn't add this to the lead until it's mentioned somewhere in the body. A browser search of the article for "virus" finds zero occurrences. But I would still oppose this in the lead, even after that's taken care of. ―Mandruss ☎ 15:03, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
- You consider ONE SENTENCE about a global pandemic that has shut down a country of 320 million "too much detail"? pbp 14:43, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
Shouldn't this article contain at least a paragraph about Trump and the coronavirus? pbp 18:41, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
- No. It's a global health crisis that implies nothing specific about Trump. — JFG talk 19:23, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
- Makes sense. That's why we don't mention WW2 in the Winston Churchill article. SPECIFICO talk 21:34, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
- SPECIFICO, Ha. The difficult bit is showing how this is any more or less inept than anything else he's done. Guy (help!) 22:44, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
- Also, how to avoid disruption of talk pages by fringe POV nonsense. We are going to need to address this. It's shutting down progress on many articles. To respond directly to your point, I have long said we should be looking for summary analysis of fundamental factors that come up over and over. Each instance may be WP:NOTNEWS but the larger context needs encyclopedic coverage. We're beginning to see respected analysts address this, for example in the recent book A Very Stable Genius. SPECIFICO talk 14:17, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
- SPECIFICO, Ha. The difficult bit is showing how this is any more or less inept than anything else he's done. Guy (help!) 22:44, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
- Makes sense. That's why we don't mention WW2 in the Winston Churchill article. SPECIFICO talk 21:34, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, Trump's response to the pandemic should obviously be covered briefly in this article. Otherwise, we need to remove Jerusalem, Wrestling, Cuba, Acting, Talk shows, Miss Universe, and a whole lot more. It doesn't belong in the lead now, but it may later depending on the impact of Trump's involvement. - MrX 🖋 22:55, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
- My sense of the RS reporting and analysis is there are two significant points. First, his initial reaction to the virus' spread, which is roughly 60 days ago, was denial. He did not heed advice that this would become a global crisis, and he did not deploy or strengthen the capabilities of the US to prepare and to intervene overseas, as e.g. his nemesis Obama did in the Ebola incident. Second, as he became aware of the spread of the pandemic, he sought to suppress information and to minimize government response, for fear it would weaken the stock market or impair his reelection prospects in other ways. Consistent with these approaches, he appointed inexperienced and ignorant staff to handle it for him, and only in the past few days has appeared willing to take the lead of medical experts. In part this shift appears to be due to the spectacle of local governments upstaging him and providing leadership in the crisis. @JFG: FYI, the disease did reach the USA some time ago, so "global" no longer excludes Trump's domain. It would be great if you'd read up on the RS discussions of his leadership in this crisis and help us write some great article and lead text. SPECIFICO talk 23:26, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
- There is lots of Trump content in 2020 coronavirus pandemic in the United States. There should certainly be some coronavirus content here. PrimeHunter (talk) 23:45, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
- My sense of the RS reporting and analysis is there are two significant points. First, his initial reaction to the virus' spread, which is roughly 60 days ago, was denial. He did not heed advice that this would become a global crisis, and he did not deploy or strengthen the capabilities of the US to prepare and to intervene overseas, as e.g. his nemesis Obama did in the Ebola incident. Second, as he became aware of the spread of the pandemic, he sought to suppress information and to minimize government response, for fear it would weaken the stock market or impair his reelection prospects in other ways. Consistent with these approaches, he appointed inexperienced and ignorant staff to handle it for him, and only in the past few days has appeared willing to take the lead of medical experts. In part this shift appears to be due to the spectacle of local governments upstaging him and providing leadership in the crisis. @JFG: FYI, the disease did reach the USA some time ago, so "global" no longer excludes Trump's domain. It would be great if you'd read up on the RS discussions of his leadership in this crisis and help us write some great article and lead text. SPECIFICO talk 23:26, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
"He appointed ignorant staff?" comments are laughable in the amount of speculation, with no facts to back them up. I encourage all reasonable editors to disregard above analyis if they add a corona virus section. With all due respect to SPECIFICO, it seems this user has been on wikipedia a long time with a noted history of one-sided political edits. This user should honestly be blocked by administrators from making edits on any page that has to do with Donald Trump. Amorals (talk) 01:53, 18 March 2020 (UTC)Amorals
- This article certainly has to have Trump's declaration of a national emergency, and perhaps his claims that coronavirus was fake news. @JFG: Just because coronavirus involves a lot of people doesn't automatically discount it being mentioned here; what you're saying is less an argument for why coronavirus shouldn't be mentioned here and more one why Trump shouldn't be mentioned at the coronavirus article. pbp 04:19, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
- @Amorals: You were good for the first half of that comment. Comment on content, not contributors. There is a place for such remarks and this isn't it. If you feel an ArbCom enforcement request is warranted, follow this link and file one. Make further comments like that and you will risk being the subject of one. I have posted a discretionary sanctions alert on your talk page; please read it, understand it, and take it seriously. ―Mandruss ☎ 15:26, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
- Actually the first half of Amorals' comment was not helpful. I prefaced my summary with saying that's my impression of RS narratives. I could instead have written article text with citations, but that would have been way premature. There are ample citations for encyclopedic text that reflects what I wrote, should there ultimately be consensus for article text along those lines. That would not itself be article text because it omits background facts and detail, but my approach has long been to moot rough sketches on article talk pages rather than jump to insert recent developments into the article text. That would have wasted editor time and attention, and it's not good for the workplace here. SPECIFICO talk 15:48, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
I think it is clear that Trump's response to COVID-19 will be regarded as the most consequential act of his entire presidency. We're going to be seeing thousands of deaths, many of which could've been avoided, and dramatic economic effects. With that said, we are still in the early stages and anything we put in the article will necessarily have to evolve more or less continuously. Perhaps we should start with something simple, with a sentence along these lines:
Trump's handling of the initial stages of the coronavirus pandemic drew criticism from
EVERYONE!medical professionals and public officials.
I am not suggesting these specific words (which I pulled out of my ass, basically), but rather I am suggesting this is the sort of level of coverage we should be considering at this early stage. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:38, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
- Which section would you suggest? Presidency>Domestic policy>Economy and trade? A one-sentence section would seem strange, and unwarranted. (You've blown your British cover. The British word is arse.) ―Mandruss ☎ 14:11, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
- I guess that depends on what the actually words are. COVID-19 touches the economy, health, foreign policy, personnel, approval ratings, social media, and (of course) the 2020 campaign. There's currently no convenient place to put anything, so it probably warrants a subsection under "Presidency" all of its own. There's no rush though. I think we should take a little time to work something out before we even think about putting something in the article. And to be honest, this discussion should probably be happening at Presidency of Donald Trump (an article not on my watchlist) first, if it hasn't already. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:14, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
- After living for almost 20 years in the USA, I have learned/learnt to use US spellings of things just to avoid the hassle I get if I do otherwise. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:16, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
I just looked at this article for the first time and I was shocked that it did not contain any discussion of the president's handling of the Coronavirus outbreak. I believe it is a serious lack in the article. At this point, while we are in the early stages of the epidemic, it is already one of the most important issues of his administration. Without ignoring the potential horrors to come, we have already seen several border shutdowns initiated by the president, major national addresses by the president, the appointment of personnel to deal with them, enormous fluctuations in the markets coincident with these national addresses. And the presidents actions to prepare or not prepare for the infection have already had large impacts on the country. At a minimum, we could mention that Trump was president during the outbreak and link to 2020 coronavirus pandemic in the United States David s graff (talk) 15:54, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
Based on this discussion, I've started a section to cover Trump's response to the pandemic. I think main story is how his attitude changed over a few weeks time, or pretty much what SPECIFICO wrote above. It's probably also worth noting that he refers to it as the China virus[1][2][3] and how proud he is of his own "tremendous" response. - MrX 🖋 16:46, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
- This could be under "Domestic policy:Health care". I think many of the comments above are crystal ball-gazing. The news services might indulge in this, but we shouldn't. One thing this pandemic has shown is that current affairs can be very unpredictable. We simply don't know how things will pan out.--Jack Upland (talk) 18:15, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
- That didn't seem quite right to me. A lot of the decisions are being made on the fly in reaction to rapidly changing events in the economy and society. Policies tend to be longer term, and based on ideology and planning. I don't think we could rightfully say that Trump had a healthcare policy based on sending $1000 checks to Americans and bailing out the airline industry. - MrX 🖋 18:22, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
- True, it's not just a healthcare issue.--Jack Upland (talk) 18:31, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
- The separate category is appropriate. SPECIFICO talk 18:55, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
- That didn't seem quite right to me. A lot of the decisions are being made on the fly in reaction to rapidly changing events in the economy and society. Policies tend to be longer term, and based on ideology and planning. I don't think we could rightfully say that Trump had a healthcare policy based on sending $1000 checks to Americans and bailing out the airline industry. - MrX 🖋 18:22, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
- Two significant themes related to President Trump and the pandemic that are starting to emerge in the media are: 1) that the partisan Democratic impeachment effort in January likely delayed the US government's response to the pandemic, costing lives, and 2) that the pandemic supports the increased border security and immigration controls promoted by the Trump administration. AppliedCharisma (talk) 19:11, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
- I oppose AppliedCharisma's suggested changes; they reflect an ultra-right-wing narrative.pbp 19:35, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
- Hmm. I would at least like to see sources. @AppliedCharisma: where are your sources? - MrX 🖋 20:23, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
- Honestly, I laughed out loud when I read AppliedCharisma's comment. It's always good to have a bit of satire on a Wikipedia talk page from time to time, just to break the monotony. -- Scjessey (talk) 23:07, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
- @AppliedCharisma:, how can you say the U.S. government response was delayed, in fact it was rated 10/10? The coronavirus was very much under control as late as February 24. starship.paint (talk) 04:01, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
- Honestly, I laughed out loud when I read AppliedCharisma's comment. It's always good to have a bit of satire on a Wikipedia talk page from time to time, just to break the monotony. -- Scjessey (talk) 23:07, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
- Hmm. I would at least like to see sources. @AppliedCharisma: where are your sources? - MrX 🖋 20:23, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
- I agree re #2 that pandemic supports border controls and travel bans worldwide, but that’s not quite the same as border control for illegal immigration issues. There may be greater approval for President Trump on it now, but it would be said in citeable RS to support any such edit in article. For #1 - again there would have to be a look at RS, but here I think it really didn’t have “delay” at all. The response seems neither laggard nor prescient, a fairly normal progression of a democracy struggling with finding it’s way in a sudden disaster. A bit above-average response especially since Monday 9 March. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 05:46, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
- I oppose AppliedCharisma's suggested changes; they reflect an ultra-right-wing narrative.pbp 19:35, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
Pbp it is alarming to hear you refer to the entirety of AppliedCharisma statement's as far right and to read other users like Scjessey piggyback that. Only half the statement "partisan impeachment" is right winged. The other half, fact that the coronavirus plays into Trump's border policies is a reasonable fact, hell, shutting down the damn border is what he's been trying to do all along. It makes me concerned for the impartiality of articles like these when I read these dismissive comments.Amorals (talk) 01:45, 22 March 2020 (UTC)Amorals
Alternate proposal for pandemic section
I appreciate MrX's efforts in writing a pandemic section. We definitely need one and it's a good first effort. However, I think it is too focused on his misstatements and omissions, with not enough reporting on his actual actions. I propose to replace it with a version I have been working on - using some of MrX's reporting and sources but with more of a focus on actions and timeline, and a more economical use of references.
In December 2019, an outbreak of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) was first identified in Wuhan, Hubei, China; it spread worldwide and was recognized as a pandemic by the World Health Organization (WHO) on March 11, 2020.[1][2] The first confirmed case in the United States was reported on January 20, 2020.[3] Beginning January 22 and for the next two months, Trump played down the threat, stating repeatedly that "we have it under control" and "it will all work out well".[4] On January 30 he admitted that the U.S. had five cases but claimed they were all "recuperating successfully".[4] On January 31 he announced restrictions on travel from China, effective February 2.[5] On February 25 Trump said, "I think that whole situation will start working out. We're very close to a vaccine."[6] He continued to claim that a vaccine was months away, although HHS and CDC officials repeatedly said it would take a year to a year and a half to develop a vaccine.[7][8] In a March 4 interview with Sean Hannity he claimed that the 3.4 percent death rate published by the World Health Organization is false, saying he had a "hunch" that the figure was less than 1 percent.[9] Trump also over-promised on the availability of testing for the virus, claiming on March 6 that "Anybody that wants a test can get a test."[10] In fact, the United States got off to a very slow start in such testing; fewer than 4,000 tests were administered between mid-January and the end of February.[11] The number of test kits was very limited, and there were stringent requirements for who was eligible to be tested.[12]
On February 26 he appointed Vice President Mike Pence to take charge of the nation's response to the virus.[6] On March 6, Trump signed the Coronavirus Preparedness and Response Supplemental Appropriations Act into law, providing $8.3 billion in emergency funding for federal agencies to respond to the outbreak.[13] On March 11 Trump addressed the nation from the Oval Office and acknowledged for the first time that the virus was a serious threat.[14] In the speech he announced the suspension of most travel from Europe (excluding the United Kingdom) for 30 days, beginning on March 13, and later amended it to include the United Kingdom and Ireland.[15] On March 13 he proclaimed a national emergency, freeing up additional federal resources to combat the coronavirus.[16]
What do people think? -- MelanieN (talk) 20:21, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, that's an improvement, but I think we should reference the origin of the pandemic because it provides important context and grounds the timeline. Per WP:GLOBAL. Perhaps, we could start with this:
The first confirmed case of the 2019–20 coronavirus pandemic in the United States was reported on January 20, 2020, after the initial outbreak of the disease in December 2019, in Wuhan, China. ...
- - MrX 🖋 20:33, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
- Good, I'd be OK with something like that. Although the Chinese didn't reveal the existence of the coronavirus outbreak until January 7; maybe we should use that date, as it's when we first became aware of it? -- MelanieN (talk) 20:52, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
- Oh, I see that you've already added it. In that case I am fine with it. -- MelanieN (talk) 21:03, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
- P.S. Since you think this version is an improvement, shall I go ahead and put it in the article? I was tempted to do that directly but wanted to get a little feedback first. I've added your improved first sentence to my proposal. -- MelanieN (talk) 21:04, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
- With my blessing. - MrX 🖋 21:25, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
- Done. Thanks. -- MelanieN (talk) 21:43, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
- I think it's already too wordy and this is only the beginning.--Jack Upland (talk) 00:45, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
- Perfect is the enemy of better. The above is an acceptable start. starship.paint (talk) 03:51, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
- Looking at it again from the standpoint of "wordiness", I have removed the sentence about his "hunch" that the death rate figure was wrong. It was a passing thing, and it didn't affect any actions. -- MelanieN (talk) 16:33, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
- On the other hand, there is an unprecedented amount of dissembling, irrelevant posturing, rumination, and self-congratulation coming from POTUS, even after he's been instructed to pivot from his outright denials and recriminations against the press and scientific consensus. We should develop a couple of summary sentences that adequately conveys the scope of this remarkable phenomenon. SPECIFICO talk 16:49, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
- There are several sentences that don't even mention Trump.--Jack Upland (talk) 19:30, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
- That is true, just like the rest of the article. For example, at least five sentences in the North Korea section don't even mention Trump. - MrX 🖋 19:57, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
- Re "don't even mention Trump": I see four sentences here that do not mention Trump: the first two sentences in the section, which are necessary background; and the last two sentences in the first paragraph, which are in direct response to something he said and are needed to show that what he said was untrue. I think all four sentences are directly relevant to the section. -- MelanieN (talk) 16:37, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- That is true, just like the rest of the article. For example, at least five sentences in the North Korea section don't even mention Trump. - MrX 🖋 19:57, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
- There are several sentences that don't even mention Trump.--Jack Upland (talk) 19:30, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
- On the other hand, there is an unprecedented amount of dissembling, irrelevant posturing, rumination, and self-congratulation coming from POTUS, even after he's been instructed to pivot from his outright denials and recriminations against the press and scientific consensus. We should develop a couple of summary sentences that adequately conveys the scope of this remarkable phenomenon. SPECIFICO talk 16:49, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
- Looking at it again from the standpoint of "wordiness", I have removed the sentence about his "hunch" that the death rate figure was wrong. It was a passing thing, and it didn't affect any actions. -- MelanieN (talk) 16:33, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
- Perfect is the enemy of better. The above is an acceptable start. starship.paint (talk) 03:51, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
- I think it's already too wordy and this is only the beginning.--Jack Upland (talk) 00:45, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
- Done. Thanks. -- MelanieN (talk) 21:43, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
- With my blessing. - MrX 🖋 21:25, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
- Good, I'd be OK with something like that. Although the Chinese didn't reveal the existence of the coronavirus outbreak until January 7; maybe we should use that date, as it's when we first became aware of it? -- MelanieN (talk) 20:52, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
@SPECIFICO: - you can pick and choose summary sentences from below. starship.paint (talk) 01:01, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- Courtesy ping of rest of section's participants: @MrX, Jack Upland, and MelanieN:. starship.paint (talk) 01:26, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
From January 2020 to mid-March 2020, President Trump consistently downplayed the threat posed by the coronavirus to the United States,[1] giving many optimistic public statements,[2] which were mainly aimed at calming stock markets.[3] He initially said that he had no worries about the coronavirus becoming a pandemic.[4] He went to state on multiple occasions that the situation was "under control".[2] He accused Democrats and media outlets of exaggerating the seriousness of the situation, describing Democrats' criticism of his administration's response as a "hoax".[4][5]
Trump has, in February and March, frequently promoted misinformation during his response to the outbreak.[6][7] Without scientific basis, he suggested that the outbreak would be over by April, or that the virus would vanish "like a miracle".[5][6][7] He underestimated the projected time for a coronavirus vaccine to be released,[5][6] and inaccurately stated in early March that coronavirus tests were available for all who needed them.[5][6]
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- @SPECIFICO: - I didn't mean that the entire 2 paragraphs were needed in this article. I did say you can pick and choose sentences. starship.paint (talk) 02:25, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks for the suggestions, SPECIFICO and Starship, but I don't think any additional material from the above is needed to be added. Most of the main points are already covered in what we have, and additional quotes of things that he said only once ("vanish like a miracle") are probably TMI for a biography. -- MelanieN (talk) 16:33, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- MelanieN - "miracle" was once, but 'disappear' was not.
he has regularly promoted the idea that it could suddenly disappear.
WaPo starship.paint (talk) 10:48, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
- Starship, Let me understand what you are proposing here. Most of what is in your paragraph here is already in the article. Are you suggesting we replace what is in the article with this paragraph, or add this paragraph to the article (creating a fair amount of redundancy), or pick out a sentence or two to add to the article, or what? If a sentence or two, can you single out what you propose to add that is not already in the article? -- MelanieN (talk) 16:13, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
- Possible, but
do you have better sources for that than the three you gave in your proposal above? They are retrospective and they just recite the whole litany of his falsehoods, mention the 'miracle' comment, and I think one of them mentioned it going away by April. But "multiple suggestions that the outbreak would suddenly subside"? Can you find a source that says that?-- MelanieN (talk) 14:36, 22 March 2020 (UTC) Actually the WaPo source that you linked to a couple of comments ago makes that point explicitly. I am willing to add it, with that source. -- MelanieN (talk) 14:43, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
- Possible, but
- MelanieN - "miracle" was once, but 'disappear' was not.
Shortened version of option 1
Replying to @Starship.paint:, something like
President Trump consistently downplayed the threat posed by the coronavirus, making optimistic statements that were unfounded or false. He repeatedly contradicted government experts from the CDC, NIH and other departments, stating that the situation was "under control", that a vaccine would soon be available, and that the virus would vanish "like a miracle". He accused Democrats and the news media of exaggerating the gravity of the situation, describing public criticism of his administration's response as a "hoax" and publicly attacking individual news reporters.
SPECIFICO talk 17:16, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- There’s a TONE issue there that contradicts with source cites. For example ‘admitted there were 5 cases but claimed they were all recuperating’ is not a good paraphrase of the RS ‘President Trump said we have very little problem at this moment - just 5 cases and they are all recuperating’. There is no sense an “admission” in the source, as if he was caught doing wrong by someone, and a “but claimed” portrays recuperating as showing a falsehood about there being 5 cases when it wasn’t. The source isn’t about a ‘stating falsehoods’ narrative, the source is portraying this incident as an instance of President Trump’s voicing optimism or reassurance on 30 January was (in his opinion) part of downplaying the threat. I disagree with that POV as it is applying a late March POV and in January folks simply had only a weeks news from China — it wasn’t serious in people’s minds until mid-March. But if you’re citing to a ‘downplayed the pandemic’ article I’d suggest a hard wording scrub, much this doesn’t follow the cite. Markbassett (talk) 06:15, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
- @Markbassett:
- where are exactly you readingThe specific sources on falsehoods I found are NYT, Vox, CNN. I probably could find more. starship.paint (talk) 10:27, 21 March 2020 (UTC)admitted there were 5 cases but claimed they were all recuperating
from ...? - My bad, I found what you were referring to. I do not think that sentence is significant. I will remove it. starship.paint (talk) 10:44, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
- But why remove it? Markbassett is just one suggestion. "Conceded" might be better than "admitted" but the source makes clear what he stated and why. Giving further context would be better than removal. There is now sourcing that relates POTUS' denials to the thousands of cases currently identified. That would be a better way to present the "nothing to see here" statements of January and February and early March. Also that "next 2 months" language is much better than giving two specific and otherwise insignificant dates. It is two months as of today, so I suggest you restore the more straightforward language. It's the 2 month span, not which numerical dates, that is important to our readers. SPECIFICO talk 13:40, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
- @Markbassett:
- User:SPECIFICO Because the article cited just isn’t a narrative of President Trump being forced to concede that there are 5 cases, it is that the author cherry picks him stating this as him ‘downplaying’ the severity. And there was no “but” clause, the (his view) downplaying is in Trump choosing to give factually correct small number 5 “and” that they were recuperating. I happen to disagree with the portrayal of ‘downplaying’, this hindsight sniping of 14 March didn’t exist at the time and even now is not the WEIGHT of coverage. Fact is that 30 January there were just 5 cases of people who’d come from China and recuperating. With airport screenings, travel bans, and the forming of the Coronavirus Task Force, most people felt it *was* handled as far as the United States goes. Being before Italy or Iran or Diamond Princess playing out, even experts were not sure if pandemic was avoidable or not. Most were very surprised by his 11 March travel bans, and it wasn’t until mid-March you see general awareness, stockpiling, and broad measures. On 30 January, nobody knew what was coming - we were all going to find out. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 16:32, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
- SPECIFICO—we don't hold Trump to standards applicable at a later period of time for the unfolding of events and the utterances of Trump at an earlier period of time. Let me try saying that another way: we don't write as though Trump should have known something at an earlier period of time that became blatantly obvious at a later period in time. Bus stop (talk) 17:18, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
- Why are you including
vanish "like a miracle"
? It is a manner of speaking. It is not to be taken literally. You are elevating it to a position of importance that is unwarranted. Are the explicit wordsvanish "like a miracle"
called for? Which type of a "miracle" would this be a reference to? We don't know—so why quote "like a miracle"? Do you just like the way it sounds? Bus stop (talk) 17:45, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
- You're going to need to read the RS reports. However we could give a (wordier, lengthier) summary of his insistent denials of the incipient pandemic instead of using that widely reported and video-broadcasted quote. I was working off the longer proposal. If you have language to summarize his denials, please propose it and we can all discuss. SPECIFICO talk 18:26, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
- Why are you including
Can we get a consensus to update the lede's content on immigration?
Current part of lede, last consensus in September 2018:
During his presidency, Trump ordered a travel ban on citizens from several Muslim-majority countries, citing security concerns; after legal challenges, the Supreme Court upheld the policy's third revision.
Proposed update,
During his presidency, Trump's strict immigration policies resulted in multiple versions of travel bans on citizens from several Muslim-majority countries, along with migrant detentions, family separations, and the ongoing expansion of fencing at the Mexico border.
Reason: to update other aspects of his immigration policy, and also note that in 2020, we have had further extensions of the travel ban. starship.paint (talk) 03:38, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
- Good idea to fold several notable consequences of Trump's immigration policy, which can link to the dedicated article Immigration policy of Donald Trump. Other actions include the attempted repeal of DACA and the visa lottery program. Travel ban is no longer focused on Muslim-majority countries, and it was found unbiased towards religion by the Supreme Court, so the Muslim qualifier should be removed. We have an overview article on various Trump travel bans. My proposed text:
Trump's strict immigration policy resulted in travel bans on citizens from several countries and increased policing of the Mexican border, including migrant detentions, family separations, and expansion of "the wall". Trump intends to repeal DACA and the green card lottery.
- Comments welcome. — JFG talk 08:17, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
expansion of "the wall"
does not make sense, (1) it implies that "the wall" existed prior to Trump, which it didn't, (2) "the wall" is basically a misnomer, it's a fence, [4], we should not leave that unexplained. What would work isan ongoing expansion of border fencing ("the wall")
- because it is not fully built. Regarding DACA and the green card, we should wait until it actually happens. starship.paint (talk) 10:25, 19 March 2020 (UTC)- Starship's update is OK. The JFG proposal fails on several accounts. The "Trump intends to " reads like a campaign tweet, even aside from the misleading statement that the president has the authority to repeal legislation. The Travel Ban was indeed a Muslim Ban and it was only broadened after various revisions in response to being struck down in court. So Starship's text is accurate and readers will wee the details of the subsequent revisions in the linked articles. Finally, the statements that Trump has a "strict immigration policy", or even that he has increased policing of the border are dubious. They read like more campaign slogans. Possibly Starship's version can be further improved, but the JFG text is worse in every respect. SPECIFICO talk 13:55, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
- Not worth expanding this sentence in the lede otherwise to would likely be WP:UNDUE. We already have a lot to say about Trump besides his presidency. Regards Spy-cicle💥 Talk? 20:05, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
- Fair points from starship.paint. Update, keeping it short:
Trump's strict immigration policy resulted in travel bans on citizens from several countries and increased policing of the Mexican border, including migrant detentions, family separations, and expansion of border fencing ("the wall").
- I have removed the DACA and visa lottery repeals until they are enacted, if ever. Not a fan of adding the "ongoing" qualifier to the fencing expansion, because it begs the question whether other things in the sentence are also ongoing or have stopped. For all I know, they are all ongoing. — JFG talk 06:02, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
- Work on the body first. The header *is* dated info, but this is just muddling it into disagrees with body and internally mismatches. For example, the words *did* update travel ban to “bans”, as there were three ... but the text and links are still just the first one, and there is no body content beyond the first one of 2017. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 06:33, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
"Chinese virus"
I would like to add the following to the article:
Trump's repeated use of the terms "Chinese virus" or "China virus" to describe the 2019 coronavirus disease drew criticism from the media, health experts and the Chinese government.[1][2][3]
Sources
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Since it is clearly an example of Trump's racism, my inclination is to put it in the "Racial views" section; however, it could also fit into the new section on the coronavirus. Which section do my fellow editors think is the best fit? -- Scjessey (talk) 13:34, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
- Disagree that
it is clearly an example of Trump's racism
. Trump has reasons to point the finger at China that have nothing to do with racism, including nationalism, Second Cold War, and every problem is somebody else's fault since he's doing an incredible job. "Chink virus" would be different. I'd have to see a lot more sources calling it racist in their own voices. ―Mandruss ☎ 13:49, 19 March 2020 (UTC) - I thought we're not allowed to refer to "racism" around here? Anyway, it's kind of incidental. I'm sure he uses lots of cuss words and stuff. I think we could have a much stronger presentation of his overall "racial views", but it's less clear whether each instance gets a mention. This is why we need secondary and tertiary source summaries regarding his racist speech and pandering. We cannot, as editors, pick and choose. SPECIFICO talk 14:00, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
- It's attracted a TON of press, and scorn from lawmakers on boths sides of the aisle, experts, political commentators and others who have specifically called it "racist" (for which I provided sources). It has incensed the Chinese government, harming US-China relations. With all that being said, if the prevailing view is that it's not passing the WP:WEIGHT test I am happy to let it go. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:08, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
- It may well pass WEIGHT but that doesn't mean it won't bog us down in footlong talkpage threads from a few Fox News fans here. I think we must conserve our strength. SPECIFICO talk 14:13, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
- Now that WHO has told him not to say that [5] - and he has doubled down - it may have developed enough WEIGHT for the Presidency article, if not for this one. I don't think it should be added to this biography. -- MelanieN (talk) 16:18, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
- It's in Racial views of Donald Trump. This article is too long. Perhaps the presidency article also -- but it would be a battle as SPECIFICO says. O3000 (talk) 16:25, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
- Now that WHO has told him not to say that [5] - and he has doubled down - it may have developed enough WEIGHT for the Presidency article, if not for this one. I don't think it should be added to this biography. -- MelanieN (talk) 16:18, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
- It may well pass WEIGHT but that doesn't mean it won't bog us down in footlong talkpage threads from a few Fox News fans here. I think we must conserve our strength. SPECIFICO talk 14:13, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
- It's attracted a TON of press, and scorn from lawmakers on boths sides of the aisle, experts, political commentators and others who have specifically called it "racist" (for which I provided sources). It has incensed the Chinese government, harming US-China relations. With all that being said, if the prevailing view is that it's not passing the WP:WEIGHT test I am happy to let it go. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:08, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
Based on the sources presented by Scjessey and MelanieN, I think it's fair to go even further:
Trump's repeated use of the terms "Chinese virus" or "China virus" to describe the 2019 coronavirus disease was criticized and described as potentially racist by the media, health experts and the Chinese government.
Since "coronavirus" has rightly dominated the international news cycle for weeks I think we can also argue this is WP:DUE, even for the president of the United States. -Darouet (talk) 17:22, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
- That's rather a SYNTHy argument to include it. The World Series dominates the American media every fall, but an president's statement about the Fall Classic is not automatically WP:DUE. More significantly, perhaps, is that this is occurring in the context of a) Trump's having gratuitously pitched his tariff battles against China, and b) The recent expulsion of U.S. journalists from China. But we would need a source that discusses the connection among these events. SPECIFICO talk 18:00, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
- There's no realistic comparison between the annual world series and the current coronavirus pandemic. -Darouet (talk) 19:01, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
- Right. I was pointing out a fallacy that's logically identical to the one in your argument. SPECIFICO talk 19:09, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
- SPECIFICO is correct. When you've shown that talk about the racism of those terms has
dominated the international news cycle for weeks
, you'll have a DUE argument for your proposed sentence. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:18, 19 March 2020 (UTC) - I would support this version as well. - MrX 🖋 19:08, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
- There's no realistic comparison between the annual world series and the current coronavirus pandemic. -Darouet (talk) 19:01, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
- Scjessey—you might consider that there might be a distinction between the carping of Trump's detractors and anything that is
"clearly an example of Trump's racism"
. Have you not been here long enough to know to keep section headers neutral? "Keep headings neutral: A heading on an article talk page should indicate what the topic is, but not communicate a specific view about it." What kind of a heading is "Trump's racist terms for the coronavirus"? You've been here since 2005. Bus stop (talk) 19:29, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
- Mr. Bus Stop, I hope you don't think anyone here is denying that he's a racist. Just that we don't have any basis to craft our own narrative about this and that. SPECIFICO talk 20:14, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
- @Bus stop: I refuse to normalize racism, especially when there are hundreds of reliable sources that outright state Trump is a racist. Almost everyone refers to COVID-19 as "the coronavirus", but Trump and his ilk insist on using the openly racist term that refers to China or the Chinese people. In my view, "Trump is a racist" would be a perfectly neutral section heading, in that it is a well-supported fact. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:43, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
It's worth noting that someone "crossed out the word “Corona” in coronavirus and replaced it with the word “Chinese.”".[6] - MrX 🖋 21:36, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
I would be more interested in noting it in the context of an attempt to deflect blame from himself, as he and his media supporters have now pivoted to rewrite the history of what they've been hollering for weeks. soibangla (talk) 22:23, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
- It's a centuries old tool of politicians around the world, particularly those with a conservative bent, to pander to the innate fears and racism of their supporters and potential supporters by repeatedly reminding them that their are nasty foreigners out there would would do them serious harm if they could, and then convince them that these said politicians will protect the masses from this evil. I find it hard to tell how racist Trump really is, but he certainly plays the race card in an expert way. How we reflect this fact in the article, while his supporters will no doubt argue against everything I've just written, even the general comments about people who are not Trump, I'm not sure. HiLo48 (talk) 23:28, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
- HiLo48, is pandering to racists not racist in and of itself? – Muboshgu (talk) 00:21, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- It's not quite the same. Politicians are always playing priority games. Votes usually feel more important to many of them than ethics. A politician who doesn't necessarily hate China might see it as so remote and irrelevant that encouraging voters to hate it is more important. (And again, I don't just mean Trump.) In my view, pandering to racists is worse than racism, because it encourages them. HiLo48 (talk) 01:09, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- For some weird reason, editors have been unwilling to use the straightforward description "racist" -- and that does not need to imply judgment or condemnation. But when it describes words and deeds, it's not helpful to construct elaborate euphemisms and contorted article narratives merely to avoid simple NPOV description. SPECIFICO talk 00:24, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- It is alleged that the wet markets such as the Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market sold an exceptionally wide variety of species of animals and that cages were sometimes stacked vertically allowing bodily fluids to fall on species at a lower level in a stack. It has been suggested that such an arrangement made it more likely that a virus would jump from one species to another and eventually to humans. Wet markets are found around the world but the wide variety of types of species plus the vertical stacking of cages may have contributed to the outbreak of this virus where it did. These are just theories but if they are found to be true I think there might be some justification for the terminology that Trump and others are using—linking the identity of the virus to its country of origin. Bus stop (talk) 02:03, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- Truly bizarre OR. What does stacked cages have to do with "Chinese"? SPECIFICO talk 02:18, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- I will try to find a source. But I am just weighing in to the disregard of WP:FORUM that prevails in several of the posts above. Bus stop (talk) 02:23, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- Consider this YouTube video. I do not allege this is sound science. I just don't know. Bus stop (talk) 02:37, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- Since people are using the WHO as a source here, you should consider this, and since it's from CNN, it's not some right wing source. The coronavirus crisis is raising questions over China's relationship with the World Health Organization and note (and I found it ironic) how the article discusses past issues with the "Ebola" virus. Sir Joseph (talk) 03:34, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- Truly bizarre OR. What does stacked cages have to do with "Chinese"? SPECIFICO talk 02:18, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- It is alleged that the wet markets such as the Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market sold an exceptionally wide variety of species of animals and that cages were sometimes stacked vertically allowing bodily fluids to fall on species at a lower level in a stack. It has been suggested that such an arrangement made it more likely that a virus would jump from one species to another and eventually to humans. Wet markets are found around the world but the wide variety of types of species plus the vertical stacking of cages may have contributed to the outbreak of this virus where it did. These are just theories but if they are found to be true I think there might be some justification for the terminology that Trump and others are using—linking the identity of the virus to its country of origin. Bus stop (talk) 02:03, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- HiLo48, is pandering to racists not racist in and of itself? – Muboshgu (talk) 00:21, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- It's a centuries old tool of politicians around the world, particularly those with a conservative bent, to pander to the innate fears and racism of their supporters and potential supporters by repeatedly reminding them that their are nasty foreigners out there would would do them serious harm if they could, and then convince them that these said politicians will protect the masses from this evil. I find it hard to tell how racist Trump really is, but he certainly plays the race card in an expert way. How we reflect this fact in the article, while his supporters will no doubt argue against everything I've just written, even the general comments about people who are not Trump, I'm not sure. HiLo48 (talk) 23:28, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
- "Beijing is successfully dodging culpability for its role in spreading the coronavirus" per The Atlantic. Oppose adding a Chinese Communist Party propaganda spin to the article. --Pudeo (talk) 07:59, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- That opinion article has nothing to do with the topic of this discussion. Nowhere does it mention that Trump renamed the virus "Chinese virus" or "China virus". The article also doesn't say anything about "Chinese Communist Party propaganda spin". I know you wouldn't just make stuff up, so would it be safe to say that you are consuming information from sources like Chanel Rion?[7][8] Just be aware that COVID-19 is under community discretionary sanctions and there is very low tolerance in general for the willful spreading of bullshit on Wikipedia while we deal with misinformation in the middle of a pandemic. - MrX 🖋 11:23, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- Agree with Pudeo. China's inability to maintain proper food standards at wet markets has created an unprecedented global crisis. It is entirely appropriate to call China out on what they've done, and not buy into their propaganda. Mr Ernie (talk) 09:19, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- See my reply to Pudeo, and WP:NOTAFORUM. - MrX 🖋 11:23, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
Bus stop is absolutely correct about the origin of the virus. It is more or less certain to have come from a wet market that mixed wildlife in the cage stacks. But unfortunately, it entirely misses the point that referring to the virus by its country or origin is RACIST. If the virus had originated in the US, there's no way Trump would be referring to it as the "American virus". Trump is very deliberately saying "Chinese virus" instead of "coronavirus" or "COVID-19" because, as he has shown throughout his political career, he wants to demonize anything "foreign". This example is just but one act in a series of racist acts Trump has taken. At what point do Wikipedia editors overcome their squeamishness to speak as plainly as Trump does, and call him what we all know he is? -- Scjessey (talk) 12:22, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- I wasn't aware that race and nationality are the same thing. If it had originated in France, would Trump be RACIST to call it the French virus? ―Mandruss ☎ 12:34, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- My short answer is YES; however, in truth we are actually talking about xenophobia. What's peculiar is that sources (and there are scads of them) all use the term "racist" instead. This inaccuracy is why I did not use the term in my original suggested text. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:10, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- Ah. Now we're making progress. I propose that we use the correct terms for things, even in article talk, even if supposed scads don't. You don't have to use the term in the text if you put it in the "Racial views" section, which was your original proposal. ―Mandruss ☎ 13:17, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- Well, yeah. I feel like we've had an awful lot of discussion to get back to where we started. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:46, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- We started with the section heading "Trump's racist terms for the coronavirus" and a proposal to add your text to the "Racial views" section. We are not back to that. It looks like the text will end up in the virus section, not the "Racial views" section, and there's a significant chance that some folks will stop saying racism/racist on this page when they mean xenophobia/xenophobe. That's worth this amount of discussion. ―Mandruss ☎ 13:53, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- Well, yeah. I feel like we've had an awful lot of discussion to get back to where we started. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:46, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- Ah. Now we're making progress. I propose that we use the correct terms for things, even in article talk, even if supposed scads don't. You don't have to use the term in the text if you put it in the "Racial views" section, which was your original proposal. ―Mandruss ☎ 13:17, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- My short answer is YES; however, in truth we are actually talking about xenophobia. What's peculiar is that sources (and there are scads of them) all use the term "racist" instead. This inaccuracy is why I did not use the term in my original suggested text. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:10, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
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Back on track
If anyone has sources that say that Trump renamed COVID-19 to China virus because of stacked cages, let's see them, otherwise I have to insist that this forum chat needs to take place somewhere else. The subject of this discussion is should we mention that Trump refers to the disease/virus disease as "Chinese virus" or "China virus". I don't much care about the speculation of why he does that, but it is noteworthy that virtually every other respected person and institution on the planet doesn't. - MrX 🖋 11:32, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- Yes we should say what he calls it but attribute it as racist to those sharing that opinion, and not in Wiki voice. There are just as many people who say it is not racist. One of the loudest voices supporting that the language is racist is the CCP, who are trying to promote division and take the spotlight off of them. Mr Ernie (talk) 11:43, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- I guess that's fair. We could just briefly mention how he refers to the disease/virus in the pandemic section and let readers draw their own conclusions. - MrX 🖋 12:19, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- There are just as many people... Ernie, you make what appears to be a factual quantitative statement with no evidence whatsoever. Please do not do that on the article talk page. It obstructs rational discussion. I don't see any basis for anything more than the description of his renaming. As a practical matter, it's clear that this page is burdened by editors who believe that less developed areas of the world should follow FDA food processing standards or maybe American fast-food manufacturing protocols. That's none of our business and I hope never to see that kind of garbage on an article talk page again. SPECIFICO talk 16:12, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- SPECIFICO—you say
"As a practical matter, it's clear that this page is burdened by editors who believe that less developed areas of the world should follow FDA food processing standards or maybe American fast-food manufacturing protocols. That's none of our business and I hope never to see that kind of garbage on an article talk page again."
What does that mean? No one, to my knowledge, said anything about"less developed areas of the world ... follow[ing] FDA food processing standards"
. I didn't say anything like that. Nor, I don't think, did anyone else say anything like that. Bus stop (talk) 17:10, 20 March 2020 (UTC) - It’s not appropriate for you to do that right now, SPECIFICO. The world is suffering, tremendously, because of what China did. It’s entirely my business when my family is at risk because of China’s food processing standards. We have nearly 1,000 cases in the city I live in, including a positive case in a child in the nearby public school. Nobody caught the corona virus from MacDonald’s protocols. Would be great to put aside the partisanship right now and get this right. I haven’t been able to get through to my doctor yet to get medicine I need on a daily basis. Is that Trump being “racist?” I don’t even live in the USA! This bickering isn’t helpful. Mr Ernie (talk) 18:07, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- Where did the virus start? Who silenced early whistleblowers trying to get the news out? Who tried to cover it up? Who is promoting disinformation about it? The answer of course is China. There’s nothing racist in saying that. Do not use this event to score points on Trump’s Wikipedia page. Mr Ernie (talk) 18:17, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- Nobody is saying it isn't the fault of the Chinese government. The problem is with calling it the "Chinese virus", because it demonizes the people of China. There are Chinese-Americans who are scared about what Trump's xenophobic words could mean for them. How is this not obvious? -- Scjessey (talk) 20:17, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- Where did the virus start? Who silenced early whistleblowers trying to get the news out? Who tried to cover it up? Who is promoting disinformation about it? The answer of course is China. There’s nothing racist in saying that. Do not use this event to score points on Trump’s Wikipedia page. Mr Ernie (talk) 18:17, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- SPECIFICO—you say
- Calling it the China virus is clearly an appeal to xenophobia. While blame can be placed on the neoliberal policies adopted by China that promoted sales of wild animals for human consumption, equally one could blame Western governments for allowing trade with China to continue after this practice was reintroduced following the SARS epidemic. TFD (talk) 20:37, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
Per WP:TPG and WP:NOTAFORUM. Talk pages are for discussing edit proposals. - MrX 🖋 20:29, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
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- Incorrect to say that every respected person/institution does not say that. (Again, we should not give space to a wording tiff though, just a story-du-jour not BLP significant.) It has been used elsewhere for months now. Even a quick check of BBC showed it had been saying “new China virus” or grammatically better “Chinese virus” for a couple months — see January here and here for example. Or “China coronavirus”. It’s just an unremarkable phrasing item similar to the calling it COVID-19 vs Coronavirus, unless one makes a point of declaring something racist. And then it’s a minor wording story about the evolution of a PC framing. Not a big story nor BLP significant effect. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 20:44, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
- The nature of the virus was not known back then, so its origin was the only way to refer to it. As soon as the nature was figured out, everyone except xenophobes, deplorables, and people hellbent on putting up border walls stopped using "Chinese virus" and variants thereof because it is abhorrent. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:52, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
- User:Scjessey Don’t be silly. Demonstrably false to claim that, as already shown. Try googling BBC in February or March, note “China virus” is the lead *tag*, and see occasional use in text or of “Chinese virus”. It’s also a phrasing seen occasionally in other places Bloomberg, in Reuters, in Nature. I have also seen a mention of this as part of Chinese government press manuvering in Quartz at 5 March. Look, this is just a RECENTISM, two or three days ago ‘Trump grilled on use of’ story went a bit viral and here we are with a flap over trivia that has shown no enduring note and no impact. At least it’s past a 48-hour waiting period. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 21:05, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
- Look, just don’t spout hyperbolic narratives “everyone except xenophobes” and you won’t be open to being shown silly. Due diligence of checking Google first is a good idea, especially for such EXCEPTIONAL claims. And again, this is all just a trivial flap about wording. Reasonable of Chinese government to pursue, open for President Trump to do or not. Not something to presume a whole lot from, and simply not a big story with BLP significance. We shouldn’t put in a line for every time a reporter checks his phrasing, the Internet isn’t big enough for that. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 21:38, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
- @Scjessey: I must remind you to remain civil during talk page discussions. As you know, personal attacks are a form of disruptive editing and are a violation of policy that, when protracted, can result in a block. Ergo Sum 17:42, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
Impeachment in lead
@Starship.paint:. This edit of yours adds new language to lead text that was extensively discussed on talk. Please undo your addition. It's rather SYNTHy (as if the trial was not legitimate) and at any rate should be agreed before such an addition, given the recent discussion. Thanks. SPECIFICO talk 14:29, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
- @SPECIFICO: - done and sorry, I've been out of the loop. I didn't know there was a discussion. starship.paint (talk) 14:38, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
Time to revisit North Korea
The fourth paragraph of the lede discusses Trump's foreign policy. Undoubtedly, one of his most significant (maybe the most significant) foreign policy actions was opening up relations with North Korea/meeting with Kim Jong Un. The paragraph mentions the killing of Soleimani and recognizing Jerusalem as the Israeli capital. In my estimation, meeting with Kim and the apparent détente is more significant than both of those, since it was an overt act to deviate from 70 years of US foreign policy on Korea. I think it certainly deserves a mention in the lede. Ergo Sum 17:12, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
- I agree.--Jack Upland (talk) 17:25, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
- I sort of agree, while noting that the impact of Trump's actions with respect to DPRK were modest at best. How about we remove Jerusalem and Soleimani, and replace it with a brief mention of North Korea and his handling of the COVID-19 pandemic? - MrX 🖋 17:38, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
- Based on WEIGHT of coverage and amount in article, I agree a few words would be appropriate. It seems bigger than Solemani and similar but less than the Obama normalisation with Cuba. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 22:13, 22 March 2020 (UTC)