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== RFC on use of Liar and Lie == |
== RFC on use of Liar and Lie == |
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{{archive top|result= Regarding the term "liar", consensus has been reached that should not be used, because it is not encyclopedic, and there are POV-related concerns. This consensus however includes only labeling, outright calling him liar- it should not be interpreted as consensus against including incidents and cases where he made untruthful statements. Regarding "lies", there is no '''clear''' consensus, but it is '''leaning''' towards "do not use". The main concern expressed was that the term requires assumption of intents, from which POV issues arise. However the discussion was focused mainly on the "liar" part, so a separate discussion would allow a clearer consensus. --[[User:Kostas20142|Kostas20142]] ([[User talk:Kostas20142|talk]]) 13:06, 6 August 2017 (UTC) {{nac}}}} |
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===Close requested=== |
===Close requested=== |
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[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Requests_for_closure&diff=793995232&oldid=793927585] ―[[User:Mandruss|<span style="color:#775C57;">'''''Mandruss'''''</span>]] [[User talk:Mandruss|<span style="color:#999;">☎</span>]] 04:49, 5 August 2017 (UTC) |
[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Requests_for_closure&diff=793995232&oldid=793927585] ―[[User:Mandruss|<span style="color:#775C57;">'''''Mandruss'''''</span>]] [[User talk:Mandruss|<span style="color:#999;">☎</span>]] 04:49, 5 August 2017 (UTC) |
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== Trump of US military ban on trans people -- Is this true or false? == |
== Trump of US military ban on trans people -- Is this true or false? == |
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Donald Trump was a Social sciences and society good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||||||||||||||||||||
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This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Peer reviewers: Pstein92.
Open RfCs and surveys
Current consensus
NOTE: It is recommended to link to this list in your edit summary when reverting, as:[[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus|current consensus]] item [n]
To ensure you are viewing the current list, you may wish to .
official White House portrait as the infobox image. (Dec 2016, Jan 2017, Oct 2017, March 2020) (temporarily suspended by #19 following copyright issues on the inauguration portrait, enforced when an official public-domain portrait was released on 31 October 2017)
1. Use theQueens, New York City, U.S.
" in the infobox. (Nov 2016, Oct 2018, Feb 2021) "New York City" de-linked. (September 2020)
gaining a majority of the U.S. Electoral College" and "
receiving a smaller share of the popular vote nationwide", without quoting numbers. (Nov 2016, Dec 2016) (Superseded by #15 since 11 February 2017)
Oct 2016) In the lead section, just write: Removed from the lead per #47.
Forbes estimates his net worth to be [$x.x] billion.
(July 2018, July 2018)
Many of his public statements were controversial or false." in the lead. (Sep 2016, February 2017, wording shortened per April 2017, upheld with July 2018) (superseded by #35 since 18 February 2019)
without prior military or government service
". (Dec 2016)
Include a link to Trump's Twitter account in the "External links" section. (Jan 2017) Include a link to an archive of Trump's Twitter account in the "External links" section. (Jan 2021)
10. Keep Barron Trump's name in the list of children and wikilink it, which redirects to his section in Family of Donald Trump per AfD consensus. (Jan 2017, Nov 2016)
12. The article title is Donald Trump, not Donald J. Trump. (RM Jan 2017, RM June 2019)
13. Auto-archival is set for discussions with no comments for 14 days. Manual archival is allowed for (1) closed discussions, 24 hours after the closure, provided the closure has not been challenged, and (2) "answered" edit requests, 24 hours after the "answer", provided there has been no follow-on discussion after the "answer". (Jan 2017) (amended with respect to manual archiving, to better reflect common practice at this article) (Nov 2019)
14. Omit mention of Trump's alleged bathmophobia/fear of slopes. (Feb 2017)
Trump won the general election on November 8, 2016, …"). Accordingly the pre-RfC text (Diff 8 Jan 2017) has been restored, with minor adjustments to past tense (Diff 11 Feb 2018). No new changes should be applied without debate. (RfC Feb 2017, Jan 2017, Feb 2017, Feb 2017) In particular, there is no consensus to include any wording akin to "losing the popular vote". (RfC March 2017) (Superseded by local consensus on 26 May 2017 and lead section rewrite on 23 June 2017)
Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is the 45th and current president of the United States. Before entering politics, he was a businessman and television personality." The hatnote is simply {{Other uses}}. (April 2017, RfC April 2017, April 2017, April 2017, April 2017, July 2017, Dec 2018) Amended by lead section rewrite on 23 June 2017 and removal of inauguration date on 4 July 2018. Lower-case "p" in "president" per Dec 2018 and MOS:JOBTITLES RfC Oct 2017. Wikilinks modified per April 2020. Wikilink modified again per July 2020. "45th" de-linked. (Jan 2021)
Wharton School (BS Econ.)", does not mention Fordham University. (April 2017, April 2017, Aug 2020, Dec 2020)
20. Mention protests in the lead section with this exact wording: His election and policies
(June 2017, May 2018) (Note: In February 2021, when he was no longer president, the verb tense was changed from "have sparked" to "sparked", without objection.)
have sparked numerous protests.
22. Do not call Trump a "liar" in Wikipedia's voice. Falsehoods he uttered can be mentioned, while being mindful of calling them "lies", which implies malicious intent. (RfC Aug 2017)
Trump ordered a travel ban on citizens from several Muslim-majority countries, citing security concerns; after legal challenges, the Supreme Court upheld the policy's third revision.(Aug 2017, Nov 2017, Dec 2017, Jan 2018, Jan 2018) Wording updated (July 2018) and again (Sep 2018).
25. Do not add web archives to cited sources which are not dead. (Dec 2017, March 2018)
26. Do not include opinions by Michael Hayden and Michael Morell that Trump is a "useful fool […] manipulated by Moscow"
or an "unwitting agent of the Russian Federation"
. (RfC April 2018)
27. State that Trump falsely claimed
that Hillary Clinton started the Barack Obama birther
rumors. (April 2018, June 2018)
28. Include, in the Wealth section, a sentence on Jonathan Greenberg's allegation that Trump deceived him in order to get on the Forbes 400 list. (June 2018, June 2018)
29. Include material about the Trump administration family separation policy in the article. (June 2018)
30. Supersedes #24. The lead includes: "Many of his comments and actions have been characterized as racially charged or racist.
" (RfC Sep 2018, Oct 2018, RfC May 2019)
31. Do not mention Trump's office space donation to Jesse Jackson's Rainbow/Push Coalition in 1999. (Nov 2018)
32. Omit from the lead the fact that Trump is the first sitting U.S. president to meet with a North Korean supreme leader. (RfC July 2018, Nov 2018)
33. Do not mention "birtherism" in the lead section. (RfC Nov 2018)
34. Refer to Ivana Zelníčková as a Czech model, with a link to Czechs (people), not Czechoslovakia (country). (Jan 2019)
Trump has made many false or misleading statements during his campaign and presidency. The statements have been documented by fact-checkers, and the media have widely described the phenomenon as unprecedented in American politics.(RfC Feb 2019)
37. Resolved: Content related to Trump's presidency should be limited to summary-level about things that are likely to have a lasting impact on his life and/or long-term presidential legacy. If something is borderline or debatable, the resolution does not apply. (June 2019)
38. Do not state in the lead that Trump is the wealthiest U.S. president ever. (RfC June 2019)
39. Supersedes #21 and #36. Do not include any paragraph regarding Trump's mental health or mental fitness for office. Do not bring up for discussion again until an announced formal diagnosis or WP:MEDRS-level sources are provided. This does not prevent inclusion of content about temperamental fitness for office. (RfC Aug 2019, July 2021)
40. Include, when discussing Trump's exercise or the lack thereof: He has called golfing his "primary form of exercise", although he usually does not walk the course. He considers exercise a waste of energy, because he believes the body is "like a battery, with a finite amount of energy" which is depleted by exercise.
(RfC Aug 2019)
41. Omit book authorship (or lack thereof) from the lead section. (RfC Nov 2019)
42. House and Senate outcomes of the impeachment process are separated by a full stop. For example: He was impeached by the House on December 18, 2019, for abuse of power and obstruction of Congress. He was acquitted of both charges by the Senate on February 5, 2020.
(Feb 2020)
43. The rules for edits to the lead are no different from those for edits below the lead. For edits that do not conflict with existing consensus: Prior consensus is NOT required. BOLD edits are allowed, subject to normal BRD process. The mere fact that an edit has not been discussed is not a valid reason to revert it. (March 2020)
44. The lead section should mention North Korea, focusing on Trump's meetings with Kim and some degree of clarification that they haven't produced clear results. (RfC May 2020)
46. Use the caption "Official portrait, 2017" for the infobox image. (Aug 2020, Jan 2021)
47. Do not mention Trump's net worth or Forbes ranking (or equivalents from other publications) in the lead, nor in the infobox. (Sep 2020)
48. Supersedes #45. Trump's reaction to the COVID-19 pandemic should be mentioned in the lead section. There is no consensus on specific wording, but the status quo is Trump reacted slowly to the COVID-19 pandemic; he minimized the threat, ignored or contradicted many recommendations from health officials, and promoted false information about unproven treatments and the availability of testing.
(Oct 2020, RfC Aug 2020)
49. Supersedes #35. Include in lead: Trump has made many false and misleading statements during his campaigns and presidency, to a degree unprecedented in American politics.
(Dec 2020)
50. Supersedes #17. The lead sentence is: Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is an American politician, media personality, and businessman who served as the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021.
(March 2021), amended (July 2021), inclusion of politician (RfC September 2021)
51. Include in the lead that many of Trump's comments and actions have been characterized as misogynistic. (Aug 2021 and Sep 2021)
52. Supersedes #23. The lead should contain a summary of Trump's actions on immigration, including the Muslim travel ban (cf. item 23), the wall, and the family separation policy. (September 2021)
53. The lead should mention that Trump promotes conspiracy theories. (October 2021)
54. Include in the lead that, quote, Scholars and historians rank Trump as one of the worst presidents in U.S. history.
(October 2021)
55. Regarding Trump's comments on the 2017 far-right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia
, do not wiki-link "Trump's comments" in this manner. (RfC December 2021)
56. Retain the content that Trump never confronted Putin over its alleged bounties against American soldiers in Afghanistan
but add context. Current wording can be altered or contextualized; no consensus was achieved on alternate wordings. (RfC November 2021) Trump's expressions of doubt regarding the Russian Bounties Program should be included in some capacity, though there there is no consensus on a specific way to characterize these expressed doubts. (RfC March 2022)
57. Do not mention in the lead Gallup polling that states Trump's the only president to never reach 50% approval rating. (RfC January 2022)
58. Use inline citations in the lead for the more contentious and controversial statements. Editors should further discuss which sentences would benefit from having inline citations. (RfC May 2022, discussion on what to cite May 2022)
59. Do not label or categorize Trump as a far-right politician. (RfC August 2022)
60. Insert the links described in the RfC January 2023.
61. When a thread is started with a general assertion that the article is biased for or against Trump (i.e., without a specific, policy-based suggestion for a change to the article), it is to be handled as follows:
- Reply briefly with a link to Talk:Donald Trump/Response to claims of bias.
- Close the thread using
{{archive top}}
and{{archive bottom}}
, referring to this consensus item. - Wait at least 24 hours per current consensus #13.
- Manually archive the thread.
This does not apply to posts that are clearly in bad faith, which are to be removed on sight. (May 2023)
62. The article's description of the five people who died during and subsequent to the January 6 Capitol attack should avoid a) mentioning the causes of death and b) an explicit mention of the Capitol Police Officer who died. (RfC July 2023)
63. Supersedes #18. The alma mater field of the infobox reads: "University of Pennsylvania (BS)". (September 2023)
64. Omit the {{Very long}}
tag. (January 2024)
65. Mention the Abraham Accords in the article; no consensus was achieved on specific wordings. (RfC February 2024)
RFC on use of Liar and Lie
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Multiple WP:RS call Donald Trump a Liar.
The article already states that many of his public statements during the campaign were controversial or false
1. Should the article assume intent and call statements lies, where justified and sourced by WP:RS? 2. Should the article follow WP:RSes, assume that Trump has an intent to deceive, and refer to him as a liar?
For Reference: per https://www.merriam-webster.com/
Liar: a person who tells lies has a reputation as a liar
Lie: to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive
Casprings (talk) 20:17, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
lie. To make an untrue statement with intent to deceive; tell a lie <man is the only animal that habitually lies>.
M-W Unabridged. --Dervorguilla (talk) 03:16, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
Sources that call Trump a Liar |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
References
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RfC Survey: Liar and Lie
- Support (qualified)- In cases where the president of the united states of america lies, we should describe these statements as lies (e.g. not merely 'untruths', 'inaccurate', whatever watered down stuff.) Less sure on 'liar', nor do I know where that would be included without seeming odd. PeterTheFourth (talk) 20:22, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
- Strong Oppose The first definition of liar is "a person who tells lies." By that definition, every human being with an article on Wikipedia would need to be referred to as a "liar," unless they've always responded with the truth when asked how he/she is doing today. I think the terms "lie" and "liar" are loaded, non-encyclopedic, POV (who decides if someone has a reputation for this, or for that?), and sets a dangerous precedent for cramming these terms into everyone's article who lies (every single politician's article, per MelanieN). "criticized for apparently/allegedly false statements" is crystal clear language. EDIT: Also notable that the vast majority of those sources are either from liberal outlets or not RS at all ("WBUR-FM"? "Good" magazine?) Liberal outlets are fine as RS, but need moderate and conservative agreement to avoid purely Democrat POV.Hidden Tempo (talk) 20:36, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose both. Copied from an earlier thread: His pattern of falsehoods could arise from a number of things besides a deliberate intent to deceive, including certain cognitive disorders, delusional tendencies, even extreme carelessness or mental laziness. I think most of the sources using that inflammatory word are in fact doing so with political motivation, as they can't see into his mind any more than I can. As I understand it, WP:V policy requires RS for inclusion, but presence of RS does not require inclusion. (Add: even a lot of RS.) ―Mandruss ☎ 21:04, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
CommentOppose. WaPo has now documented 744 false and misleading statements in 162 days. [1] In one of his own books he uses an interesting euphemism for his less than true statements that escapes me, which suggests that he has a long-time strategy of knowingly and purposely spreading incorrect statements as facts. RS have regularly commented on the lack of truth in his statements. I think leaders should be called out on the misinformation they spread. Problem is, some portion of these statements are simply him repeating lies from other sources, or simply his own incorrect beliefs – which technically isn’t lying, Besides, lie is a crude word. Objective3000 (talk) 21:59, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
- The fact that the Office of Government Ethics Director, Walter Shaub Jr., resigned today is more important. Objective3000 (talk) 22:37, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
- Is there another word that tells the reader someone has intent to misled?Casprings (talk) 22:31, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
- Perhaps not, but Wikipedia isn't a courtroom, and I don't even know how editors would go about proving intent in this arena. Also, is it the job of an encyclopedia to try to prove an accusation from his detractors? Hidden Tempo (talk) 23:03, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
- Strong oppose We say that he makes false statements. That is not the same as lying. Lying implied DELIBERATE deception, and we cannot (nor can the "reliable sources") tell what his intent it. In many cases he may be telling falsehoods out of misinformation or ignorance. To say that he tells lies is an accusation. To say that he tells falsehoods is not an accusation, not a BLP violation, not a character judgment. It is a neutral statement of widely reported and indisputable fact. (Didn't we just have this same conversation a few threads ago? Yes, here it is.) --MelanieN (talk) 22:41, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
- Comment - @Casprings: Your statement
The article already acknowledges that many of his public statements are false
in the RfC opener is not an accurate representation of what the article currently says. I'll leave the correction to you. ―Mandruss ☎ 23:23, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
- Support It's widely reported by RS that he is incontrovertibly a liar. MelanieN, let's not assign any value judgment to that. In other words, let's stick to the factual statement that per RS, Trump is a liar. We needn't imply any pejorative evaluation to that statement and the article should not condemn or criticize him for it. SPECIFICO talk 00:00, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
- Update I support "lie" but I'm fine with omitting "liar" from the lede in WP's voice. Most editors seem to have made the same error I did in not differentiating the two questions posed in this RfC. I suspect that many will agree with me as to "lie" but not "liar". SPECIFICO talk 16:03, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
We needn't imply any pejorative evaluation to that statement and the article should not condemn or criticize him for it.
That’s an interesting argument. Basically, you are saying that lying may or may not be justifiable (I think). But, the word lie does make such an implication in many minds. Let us stick with the preponderance of RS and use less provocative wording in an encyclopedia. Objective3000 (talk) 00:12, 7 July 2017 (UTC)- I'm saying something a bit different. I'm saying that "he's lying" is a factual or descriptive statement, just like "he has big hair" or "he has big hands" and that we should not project any normative standard to that conduct. It's not that it's "justifiable" because that implies a normative evaluation of his conduct or its purpose. SPECIFICO talk 02:55, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
- We are not the ones "projecting a standard" or "implying a pejorative evaluation" or "assigning a value judgment" to the word liar. The English language does that. From school yard taunts - "liar! liar! pants on fire!" - to the way reporters try to bait someone into calling someone else a liar - "That's not the way I remember it." "So you are calling him a liar?" "I'm just saying that I don't think it happened that way." "So you're saying he's a liar, right?" - to Trump's repeated taunt of "Lyin' Ted" - this is a loaded, inflammatory, accusatory word. Not a word we can use in an encyclopedia, not when there are neutral, non-accusatory words we can use instead. --MelanieN (talk) 03:06, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
- MelanieN, honest question. If Wikipedia was in consensus that a person had an intent to misled by their falsehoods, what other word indicates that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Casprings (talk • contribs)
- There are more neutral words for that too. And it depends on how we were able to judge their intent. If they were found in a court of law to be lying under oath, the word is "perjurer". If they themselves admitted to their deceptive intent, we could attribute the word to them: "He admitted he was lying." --MelanieN (talk) 03:28, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
- MelanieN, honest question. If Wikipedia was in consensus that a person had an intent to misled by their falsehoods, what other word indicates that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Casprings (talk • contribs)
- We are not the ones "projecting a standard" or "implying a pejorative evaluation" or "assigning a value judgment" to the word liar. The English language does that. From school yard taunts - "liar! liar! pants on fire!" - to the way reporters try to bait someone into calling someone else a liar - "That's not the way I remember it." "So you are calling him a liar?" "I'm just saying that I don't think it happened that way." "So you're saying he's a liar, right?" - to Trump's repeated taunt of "Lyin' Ted" - this is a loaded, inflammatory, accusatory word. Not a word we can use in an encyclopedia, not when there are neutral, non-accusatory words we can use instead. --MelanieN (talk) 03:06, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
- I'm saying something a bit different. I'm saying that "he's lying" is a factual or descriptive statement, just like "he has big hair" or "he has big hands" and that we should not project any normative standard to that conduct. It's not that it's "justifiable" because that implies a normative evaluation of his conduct or its purpose. SPECIFICO talk 02:55, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
- Support Reliable sources refer to him as such (e.g. the NYT). Hence, we should follow standard Wikipedia practice, which is to use the terms used by reliable sources. LK (talk) 00:34, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose There is no way to assign motive to his falsehoods. Without that you cannot state he is lying. PackMecEng (talk) 00:50, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose This is not encyclopedic language. In other articles about politicians famous for lying and exaggeration, this type of language is not used. (See Adolf Hitler for example.) Furthermore it is both incorrect and weasel-wording. While the view that Trump is a liar has been reported in multiple RS, RS do not say he is a liar. And if we are going to say he has been called a liar, we need to say who calls him that. BTW multiple people also accuse other politicians of lying, some people think that all politicians are liars. TFD (talk) 01:16, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks for the strawman about the troglodytes who sneer "all politicians are liars" but you know, there are bigger things about Hilter than his lies. RE: Trump, RS tell us that his lies are one of the most notable facts about him and that his expertise at crafting and deploying them to his documented advantage is unmatched in recent American history. Let's check our value judgments at the door. It's irrelevant whether lying is considered a pejorative. Anyway, I personally doubt that it is as offensive as you claim, because millions of his supporters cheer his speeches and watch his TV appearances to enjoy his lies. SPECIFICO talk 13:01, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose as ham-fisted and un-encyclopedic. Yes, he has a disturbing disregard of the truth, and has made an unprecedented number of false statements (source) but that's more nuanced than just calling someone a "liar". ~Awilley (talk) 02:57, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose per IAR, for possible confusing or misleading the reader. See Merriam-Webster Unabridged: "
To make an untrue statement with intent to deceive <man is the only animal that habitually lies>
". Trump is an animal that habitually makes (outrageously) untrue statements with intent to entertain (in his role as a WWE huckster) or cause drama (as a politician). --Dervorguilla (talk) 03:49, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
- @Dervorguilla: Could you explain the IAR bit here? You seem to be affirming that RS describe him as a liar, but then you are concerned that readers would misunderstand that? It would be our job as editors to convey whatever RS say so that, as usual, only a small number of readers misunderstand the mainstream view WP reflects. SPECIFICO talk 12:52, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose many sources call many politicians liars (and IMHO - they all lie or at least don't live up to promises). This is a POV statement. We should stick to the facts (describing where he made false statements and why) - and not to POV adjectives.Icewhiz (talk) 06:15, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
- Please be more specific and cite evidence that there are "many" (how many, who, according to what sources?) other such politicians. Otherwise your claim can't be evaluated alongside the other views in this thread. SPECIFICO talk 12:00, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
- Just about every elected modern politician has been accused (often with some basis) of lying at least part of the time. This isn't a new claim (I didn't expect a source request for this), but if you want one - here Wortham, Stanton, and Michael Locher. "Embedded metapragmatics and lying politicians." Language & Communication 19.2 (1999): 109-125. [2], https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF00130405?LI=true [3] Mearsheimer, John J. Why leaders lie: The truth about lying in international politics. Oxford University Press, 2011. [4]. If we were to start tagging politicians as liars when enough RS claim so (with an in-depth piece on how a list of statements or promises were untrue) - there would be no end to it - on both sides of the aisle. Both Clintons have been accused (and Bill was tried in the house and senate) of lying - with some basis - Wikipedia shouldn't stoop to that level in articles. Articles should be encyclopedic, not polemic - for either side. Icewhiz (talk) 14:10, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
- Please be more specific and cite evidence that there are "many" (how many, who, according to what sources?) other such politicians. Otherwise your claim can't be evaluated alongside the other views in this thread. SPECIFICO talk 12:00, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose — Pretty much everything has already been said above.--Joobo (talk) 12:25, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
- Strong opose - user Specifico and some others come and say: "Trump is a liar, he tells us lies." What 100 p.c. evidence or even 50 p.c. hint have you got for this accusation? Can you tell us proven examples, with valid sources? Have you read the rules for this side given above? Or are you propagandists of the other side of the political spectrum. To cite Dervorguilla: "Trump is an animal." What was this? Are you kidding on Wikipedia? Those who want use expressions that are not allowed here are trying not only to neglect the rules of Wikipedia, but to change them in a quiet way. One of the rules is political neutrality, another one the adherence to real facts. --Zbrnajsem (talk) 15:02, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
-
- There are reasons to warn some other editors, not (only) me, user Mandruss. The expression "animal" has been used, there was no way to misunderstand this. --Zbrnajsem (talk) 15:58, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
- Yes, there is a way, and you found it.
If other editors need AGF warnings you are free to issue them. Just be sure you understand WP:AGF and the definition of "good faith" first, and your comment above strongly suggests that you do not. ―Mandruss ☎ 16:04, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
- Yes, there is a way, and you found it.
- Comment - For those who do not know about it: WARNING: ACTIVE ARBITRATION REMEDIES. The article Donald Trump, along with other highly visible articles relating to post-1932 politics of the United States and closely related people, is currently subject to discretionary sanctions authorized by active arbitration remedies (see WP:ARBAPDS). The current restrictions are: Consensus required: All editors must obtain consensus on the talk page of this article before reinstating any edits that have been challenged (via reversion). If in doubt, don't make the edit. Etc. --Zbrnajsem (talk) 21:23, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose Lying requires intent. Unless Trump confesses or someone has mind-reading abilities, it is difficult to determine whether the falsehoods are deliberate lies or the result of ignorance or stupidity. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 15:48, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
- … or cunning obfuscation — JFG talk 15:56, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
- Ha, are you helping again? PackMecEng (talk) 17:26, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
- … or cunning obfuscation — JFG talk 15:56, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
- Comment I won't say that this needs to be included here. Is there any Public image of Donald Trump yet? It would fit there. Lorstaking (talk) 16:36, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose - We should never reduce the subject of a biography to one of their character flaws such as by applying a pejorative label like "liar". As a matter of good editorial judgment, we should never use this encyclopedia to call people cheaters, losers, haters, greedy, ignorant, crooked, or slutty, no matter what sources say. On the question of whether the article should assume intent and call statements lies: No, an article should not assume intent. We should write with a dispassionate tone and relate facts in a clear, objective manner. It's reasonable for anyone to conclude that Trump is a lying liar, but Wikipedia should never reflect that view without attribution.- MrX 19:22, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
- Spectacularly written response...right up to the rhetorical tool (to which I was recently introduced) called "apophasis," which you used to attack a living person right on his biography's talk page. It has zero relevance what "reasonable people" may or may not conclude about the living person. It's always about what the reliable sources say, not what editors think that "reasonable people" may or may not conclude.Hidden Tempo (talk) 19:45, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
- Posing a hypothetical is hardly an "attack". Editor discretion is very much part of writing an encyclopedia. That discretion is colored by our values, beliefs, education, and experience, among other things.- MrX 20:16, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
- Trump is widely cited for apophasis, come to think of it. Some Mexicans are AOK. SPECIFICO talk 23:49, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
- @MrX: Who says it's a "character flaw", or for that matter a "pejorative"? Let's just describe the subject as the weight of RS describe it. As others have said, we should not probe the depths of his soul here, just report how RS describe his behavior. SPECIFICO talk 13:15, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
- @SPECIFICO: I say it's a character flaw. Lying is antisocial. The definition of pejorative is "A word expressing contempt or disapproval", or alternatively "a word or phrase that has negative connotations or that is intended to disparage or belittle". There is obviously no consensus among reliable sources about how to describe Trump's prevarication. We should not selectively use the most blunt, controversial term when we can simply write factually using words that are commonly seen in encyclopedias to describe the same type of behavior. My objection does not preclude using the words lie, liar, lied, lying, in the appropriate context, but no way will I endorse the carte blanche that the OP seems to be seeking here.- MrX 14:38, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
- You raise the important distinction between whether to report the fact that he lies and whether to label him a liar. I have been discussing primarily the former. I don't think an encyclopedia should say "Gianni Mozzarella is a Neopolitan cheesemonger, philatelist, and liar" in an article lede. I think it's proper and important, however to refer to lying as one of the keys to Trump's manifest success in various endeavors. Per RS, we should document his actions, not characterize his soul. SPECIFICO talk 16:00, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
- @SPECIFICO: I say it's a character flaw. Lying is antisocial. The definition of pejorative is "A word expressing contempt or disapproval", or alternatively "a word or phrase that has negative connotations or that is intended to disparage or belittle". There is obviously no consensus among reliable sources about how to describe Trump's prevarication. We should not selectively use the most blunt, controversial term when we can simply write factually using words that are commonly seen in encyclopedias to describe the same type of behavior. My objection does not preclude using the words lie, liar, lied, lying, in the appropriate context, but no way will I endorse the carte blanche that the OP seems to be seeking here.- MrX 14:38, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
- HT, friendly suggestion. Your block just ended. Immediately after a block expires, try making mainspace contributions instead of criticisms of other editors. Particularly since your user page suggests that you are here to WP:rightgreatwrongs. Objective3000 (talk) 00:20, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
- Hey again, O-3000. I'm not sure why other editors think it's appropriate to poison the well by referencing past punitive action (your claim that I was recently blocked is false, btw), but it ain't. However, I'm going to AGF take you at your word that you're being friendly. Feel free to voice any concerns you may have about my contributions to the encyclopedia on my talk page so we don't get too far off topic. In the meantime, let's make sure we're holding ourselves to the very strict standards that BLP sanctions require (i.e., not using apophasis to attack living persons on their talk pages). Thanks. In any case, looks like this RfC can be closed per WP:Snow. Hidden Tempo (talk) 03:16, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
- @Hidden Tempo: A short, standard-form reply like "
I categorically deny your groundless accusations
" wastes less of your time. --Dervorguilla (talk) 15:18, 8 July 2017 (UTC) - This page is very contentious. This situation obviously does not call for a SNOW close. Power~enwiki (talk) 04:06, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
- @Hidden Tempo: A short, standard-form reply like "
- Hey again, O-3000. I'm not sure why other editors think it's appropriate to poison the well by referencing past punitive action (your claim that I was recently blocked is false, btw), but it ain't. However, I'm going to AGF take you at your word that you're being friendly. Feel free to voice any concerns you may have about my contributions to the encyclopedia on my talk page so we don't get too far off topic. In the meantime, let's make sure we're holding ourselves to the very strict standards that BLP sanctions require (i.e., not using apophasis to attack living persons on their talk pages). Thanks. In any case, looks like this RfC can be closed per WP:Snow. Hidden Tempo (talk) 03:16, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
- Spectacularly written response...right up to the rhetorical tool (to which I was recently introduced) called "apophasis," which you used to attack a living person right on his biography's talk page. It has zero relevance what "reasonable people" may or may not conclude about the living person. It's always about what the reliable sources say, not what editors think that "reasonable people" may or may not conclude.Hidden Tempo (talk) 19:45, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose - For reasons above. B. J. Klowshinski (talk) 08:36, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
- Support-ish -not as phrased, because to simply "assume" intent fails WP:V, and to simply state as lies in WP voice with not a bio reason to go there fails WP:OFFTOPIC and where WP:PUBLICFIGURE says negatives should be attributed rather than stated as fact. If there is as biographical reason -- i.e. some effect on his life -- then I would say careful handling is essential to it being kept. I tend to think though that it belongs more to the Presidency article, or Election article --and seems a POV due for mention, the same WP:PUBLICFIGURE and WP:WEIGHT indicate it *should* go SoMeWhErE. But I question if the NPOV requirements of conveying all views in due WP:WEIGHT mean you would need to say "false" as the more common, then "lies" as now frequent, and then "valid" as reflecting many that justify the point if not the literal wording or tone. Annnd - partisan editors will not like cites like Politico "Are Clinton and Trump the Biggest Liars Ever to Run For Pre side To?" if this is put into a joint article the same basis would get applied to both. Markbassett (talk) 19:44, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose - I think that something like this does need to be included in Donald Trump on social media; it's undisputed that many of his posts on social media are lies. It's excessive in the lede here; the fact that politicians lie was a cliche before Trump was elected. Power~enwiki (talk) 01:05, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
- RS also uniformly report he lies in public speeches, televised interviews, and official statements. SPECIFICO talk 02:24, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
- RS also report he has orange skin and short fingers. The burden to include it in the lede section is higher than simply being reported by RS. Power~enwiki (talk) 04:06, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
- RS also uniformly report he lies in public speeches, televised interviews, and official statements. SPECIFICO talk 02:24, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
- Support. I am not a native speaker, but I thought "a lie" is merely a statement that was used intentionally for the purpose of deception. Yes, this is exactly what RS on the subject imply. This is something people frequently do. Nothing special. Presidents do it too. Not telling something that RS tell would be against the policy - please see WP:NPOV. My very best wishes (talk) 04:01, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose. Of course this man has told some pretty massive whoppers, not all of which can have been the result of misinformation or confusion. But putting aside for a moment the the massive amount of WP:OR taking place in numerous comments above as to the man's intent, this is just not encyclopedic in tone. Even if the sourcing ran all in one direction as to Mr. Trump's purported dishonesty, this is an encyclopedia, not a place for polemic editorializing: we'd still find a more removed, objective way to describe his dishonesty. And the truth is that, while we have numerous sources speaking to countless occasions where the man has seemed to promote blatant falsehoods, and we further have additional sources that explicitly label him a liar (either themselves or in relating other comments from primary sources) we also have mountains of sources which view his supposedly dubious relationship with the truth in less critical terms. It may boggle the minds of some who view Trump as a third-rate huckster, but its the reality of media coverage of the man. And again, even were it not--even if the sources were more unanimous that the man cannot be trusted to tell the truth, we'd still go with more encyclopedic wording.
- Do note, however, that my !vote relates only to comments we make in Wikipedia's own voice. Where appropriate, it is perfectly reasonable to directly attribute quotes/claims from others calling Trump a liar, provided these assertions are included in such a way as to make the party making them clear, and presuming there aren't more than few of these (too many will quickly begin to violate WP:WEIGHT considerations). Snow let's rap 06:12, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
- Support to an extent. It shouldn't be printed in a Wikipedia voice "Donald Trump is a liar...", regardless of the truth of that statement. The form of "Donald Trump frequently makes statements which are regarded as lies..." is acceptable. TheValeyard (talk) 03:32, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
- And who is deciding when "frequently" is reached? How is "frequently" determined? Compared to other presidents, compared to the average human-being? Compared to the average human-being of the age-group? Is there even some general level you can compare the possible lies to? And who is regarding statements as lies? When does the statements actually qualify as such? All these questions and many more can never be answered properly, and hence for an encyclopaedia there is no need to use the suggested terms. Statements, actions and evidence is provided in articles and readers can decide and evaluate for themselves. Otherwise it is no encyclopaedia anymore.Joobo (talk) 11:17, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
- Reliable sources decide when this is a characteristic that particularly applies to a particular person. The reason that some of us oppose the use of the words lie and liar is not because we don’t think they apply; but because we prefer more encyclopedic words. And no we don’t just include evidence in articles. We also include reliably sourced conclusions. We just don’t make those conclusions ourselves. Objective3000 (talk) 11:30, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
- As already pointed out even with "reliable sources" such entries simply are not acceptable- for no BLP. There never even can be a reliable source that has the ground to identify something as "frequent lying" etc. since some qualifications like that are technically impossible. That is the bottom line.--Joobo (talk) 16:44, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
- Reliable sources decide when this is a characteristic that particularly applies to a particular person. The reason that some of us oppose the use of the words lie and liar is not because we don’t think they apply; but because we prefer more encyclopedic words. And no we don’t just include evidence in articles. We also include reliably sourced conclusions. We just don’t make those conclusions ourselves. Objective3000 (talk) 11:30, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
- And who is deciding when "frequently" is reached? How is "frequently" determined? Compared to other presidents, compared to the average human-being? Compared to the average human-being of the age-group? Is there even some general level you can compare the possible lies to? And who is regarding statements as lies? When does the statements actually qualify as such? All these questions and many more can never be answered properly, and hence for an encyclopaedia there is no need to use the suggested terms. Statements, actions and evidence is provided in articles and readers can decide and evaluate for themselves. Otherwise it is no encyclopaedia anymore.Joobo (talk) 11:17, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose (Summoned by bot) Until he admits to being a liar or telling lies, all Wikipedia can say is that he made false statements. I'm sure a few hundred sources can be found calling Hillary a hoe, but we aren't going to include it because it is immaterial. L3X1 (distænt write) )evidence( 12:02, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
- ValarianB Please clarify for me, are you accusing me of being mysogynistic and violating the BLP? L3X1 (distænt write) )evidence( 18:59, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
- You are guilty on both counts, yes. ValarianB (talk) 19:12, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
- I beg to differ. First off, I said "a few hundred sources", not "Let it be known that L3X1 believes that Hillary is a hoe." Comparing the Orange One's "penchant for falsehoods" (a favorite opposition dig on him, and one I support fully) to what real misogynists call Clinton is not me expressing my non-existent hate feelings. Throughout the campaign last year certain peoples resorted to hundreds of base ad hominem attacks on Clinton, and I am merely bringing that fact up. I formatted my !vote so as to limit my strong bias against the incumbent, and to conform to Wikipedia's policies of Verifiability and BLP. L3X1 (distænt write) )evidence( 19:19, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
- You are guilty on both counts, yes. ValarianB (talk) 19:12, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
- ValarianB Please clarify for me, are you accusing me of being mysogynistic and violating the BLP? L3X1 (distænt write) )evidence( 18:59, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
- Support If reliable sources call him a liar, then there's nothing wrong with the Wikipedia following suit. Explain it in context, such as what source said it and why, of course. ValarianB (talk) 14:26, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose Calling the President of the United States a liar in Wikipedia's voice would be grossly unencyclopedic language. RS also frequently make derogatory references to his skin tone and hand size, and we correctly ignore that too because it has no place in an encyclopedia. Outright calling him a liar assumes facts not in evidence, i.e. his intent, which I doubt journalists are privy to. In addition, a large number of the "sources" provided are opinion pieces, and thus not suitable for statements of fact.The WordsmithTalk to me 14:50, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose - This is not as clear cut as some people make it out to be. Donald Trump lies almost constantly. More than that, he deliberately uses lies to deflect and distract, as reporting in reliable sources has shown; nevertheless, using Wikipedia's voice to label Trump as a liar is unacceptable and unencyclopedic. We do not need to say he is a liar to show he lies, and so we must not do so. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:07, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
- Support - FWIW - agree with other supporters atm - AFAIK - Trump, consistent with his admiration of P.T. Barnum,[1][2] and recent New York Times articles, including "Trump's Lies",[3] and relevant phrasing, like ("flat-out lies"),[4] may have intentionally presented "false statements" in order to deceive others; besides, use of any other wording may be considered censorship, which Wikipedia usually doesn't support afaik - hope this helps in some way - iac - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 15:25, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
References
- ^ Schmidt, Samantha (January 17, 2017). "Why people keep comparing Donald Trump to P.T. Barnum, of circus fame". Washington Post. Retrieved July 11, 2017.
- ^ Silverstein, Jason (January 11, 2016). "Donald Trump embraces comparisons to P.T. Barnum, says America needs a 'cheerleader'". New York Daily News. Retrieved July 11, 2017.
- ^ Leonhardt, David; Thompson, Stuart A. (June 23, 2017). "Trump's Lies". New York Times. Retrieved July 11, 2017.
- ^ The Editorial Board (July 11, 2017). "The Culture of Dishonesty". New York Times. Retrieved July 11, 2017.
- Oppose - My thoughts on the subject have already been related by all others that oppose the move. Just go to any Wikipedia article where you would think pejorative language would be used (Stalin, Mao, Jeffrey Dahmer, Hitler, whomever you like). It is distinctly lacking. It is unencyclopedic and unprofessional to use this language -- nevermind for an actual sitting President. Cheef117 (talk) 15:48, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose - Agree with almost everything said by Scjessey above. Trump appears to use language to deflect and distract and divide, not to inform or involve or lead. Whether this is because of conscious lying or a malevolent 'Chauncey Gardiner' inability to tell the difference is both unverifiable and immaterial. His supporters probably know this and don't care, he may well know it and equally does not appear to care. Apart from being unencyclopaedic, it plays into that world to use 'his' language level, most sources give a more nuanced account than that proposed. "We do not need to say he is a liar to
show he lies, record verifiable info and so we must not do so". Pincrete (talk) 15:51, 11 July 2017 (UTC) - Oppose per Scjessey. Sure he is a constant and ubiquitous liar but saying that in Wikipedia's voice is problematic. However, I see no problem with stating, even in the lead, something relating to the liar issues, attributed to appropriate sourcing. It is a significant aspect of his presidency as well as his previous career in business. It would have to be phrased with great care. (responding per bot) Coretheapple (talk) 16:04, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose saying Trump is a liar; however, if multiple reliable sources refer to a specific statement as a lie, and no reliable sources say it wasn't a lie, it may be OK use "lie" as a noun or verb, as in this totally made up example:
- On January 20, 2017, Trump said that he had never foobarred, but this was shown to be a lie the next day when CNN published a video of Trump foobarring with Putin in 2015.[1]
References
- ^ "Trump Denial of Foobarring Is a Lie". CNN. January 21, 2017.
- —Anomalocaris (talk) 20:37, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
- Support the use of "lie" (number 1 above) where supported by non-opinion RSes. We don't have to be mind-readers about intent, we just have to back it up with reliable sources. If enough RS call a certain statement a lie, we can too.
- Oppose the use of "liar" (number 2 above). "Liar" more habitual, and moreover often understood as an evaluation of character. We should stay away from it.
- --MattMauler (talk) 22:37, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose – Multiple RS in multiple countries call multiple politicians liars, crooks and traitors. Not encyclopedic. — JFG talk 17:59, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose As much as I agree with the assessment that Trump is a shameless liar, I'll have to say referring to him as one will not be appropriate here. Liar/lie are not neutral words and most, if not all, politicians lie constantly. I guess it comes with the territory, but Wikipedia finds more tactful ways to report their lies rather than outright calling them liars. Granted, the frequency of Trump's lies are a bit unusual, but we can't just make an exception to neutrality. Before anyone starts with "but RS calls him a liar"; reliable sources from the other end of the political spectrum are always eager to call their opponents liars, so it's possible to find RS calling any politician a liar at one point or another. Darwinian Ape talk 02:01, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
- Comment I'm not sure that outright calling him a liar is encyclopedic, but mentioning that many reliable sources have done so may be appropriate. goose121 (talk) 06:52, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose - that a specific statement made by him is untruthful is a question of facts which can be known by people other than himself; however, that he made that statement for the purpose of deceiving (also required for the statement to be a lie, and not a mistake or an exaggeration) is known only to himself. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 08:09, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
- Support Summoned by a bot. After reading the entire thread I keep coming back to the Duck test. A lot of oppose votes start somewhere along the lines of "I agree he tells falsehoods but.." We can dance around it all we want, or call a duck a duck and leave it at that. Comatmebro (talk) 23:38, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
- Support per PeterTheFourth (talk · contribs) and Comatmebro (talk · contribs). The fact that a lie can be verified by third party sources such as major news outlets. Do I see more CNN references in this article's future? Me-123567-Me (talk) 16:26, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose per User:Mandruss. Additionally, the extensive list of "Sources that call Trump a Liar" strikes me as highly misleading. Many of the listed sources do not use the word "lie" or any variant thereof, and many of the listed sources are opinion pieces rather than reliable sources. Just giving us a laundry list of external links, without quoting any of them, is exceedingly unhelpful, IMHO. Anythingyouwant (talk) 05:37, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
Discussion
An unusual number of the oppose editors seem to be voting rather than !voting with policy-based reasoning behind their views. Mere votes will not carry any weight in a thoughtful close of this important discussion. Let's see some solid reasons behind those 'posies. SPECIFICO talk 12:47, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
- I'm of the opinion that Wikipedia policy is as pretty much as solid a reason upon which an "oppose" vote can be based, and that's why this RfC has garnered only a small trickle of "support" votes. The other reason is that the terms "lie" and "liar" are applied to the president almost exclusively among sources that despise the president, rather than a broad consensus of sources from around the political spectrum. The sources included in that 300+ group which take a more dispassionate view, do NOT support the claim that Trump is a "liar" or "lies," e.g. 6, 7, 55, but are rather quoting the above sources (or Democratic commentators/politicians) or link to the opinion pages. As Power~enwiki explained, just because a RS uses a term, does not mean that it is encyclopedic language or meets the very strict content requirements that BLP pages demand. Hidden Tempo (talk) 18:33, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
Like it or not, this is the tenor of reliable sources, explicitly referring to the man as a liar... Putin Meets His Progeny, "Our “president” is a pathological liar. He lies about everything, all the time. Lying is his resting condition." I'd think sooner rather than later, an encyclopedia will have to acknowledge this. ValarianB (talk) 16:19, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
- Sorry, but that's not a reliable source for a statement of fact here. The WordsmithTalk to me 16:51, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
- Exactly. Opinion pieces aren't reliable sources for statements of fact in Wikipedia's voice. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 17:42, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
Can we just put this RfC out of its misery already? Hardly anybody supports this proposal, including those who despise the president and are now just using this as a forum to attack the living person on his biography's talk page. Hidden Tempo (talk) 16:10, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
- No, I don't think we can. WP:SNOW closes are for cases where (1) the applicable policy is fairly clear, and (2) almost everybody agrees on that (upwards of 90 percent). Absent either of those the process has to play out, which in this case probably means 30 days. Even with these numbers, the disinterested closer could still find stronger policy basis in the Support arguments. (Any discussion of editors' motives is both irrelevant and, per WP:AGF, improper. Please keep any such suspicions to yourself.) ―Mandruss ☎ 18:03, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
- You're right, I did a quick count and it looks like it's about 21 Oppose - 8 Support right now, so I guess a snow would be inappropriate. Let the debate rage on haha. EDIT: Just to clarify, I wasn't questioning anyone's motives for the votes themselves - just noting that even editors who are using this RfC as a forum to attack the man are voting "Oppose" as well. Hidden Tempo (talk) 18:24, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
- Bear in mind that an unusually large number of the "oppose" lines are mirrors without any addition to the substantive discussion. I read the consensus so far as favoring some form of inclusion, though more strongly for lie than liar. These things will all become clearer with time as various pending stories develop one way or other to a conclusion. SPECIFICO talk 19:22, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
- I think an RfC about the plural noun "lies" with appropriate attribution (whatever that would be) would stand a better chance. I suspect I would support that. This stuff is problematic only in wiki voice, imo. It's too late to morph this RfC into that one, but we could agree to abort to save time, per WP:RFCEND. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:32, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
- If there is draft wording, I would be willing to withdraw this RFC to start that one, in hopes of gaining a consensus.Casprings (talk) 19:37, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
- It would not bother me to see this one closed and a new one started with "lies" and no "liar". Anyone can see his pants are not on fire. However I don't see that we'd need an RfC for "lies" because nobody has really given a reason not to use that objective statement -- one that doesn't tag him or damn him to eternal fire. Maybe you could make the edit and if anyone has a reason to revert it we could go back to the RfC channel? SPECIFICO talk 19:40, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
- I now see we're already saying "lies" at Donald_Trump#Campaign_rhetoric. My inclination would be to clarify the attribution there and call it a day, leaving the lead alone. But I'm too brain-dead to be "specifico" about that change, and anyway I'd prefer to wait and see how others feel about this hole matter. Misspelling intentional. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:50, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
- It would not bother me to see this one closed and a new one started with "lies" and no "liar". Anyone can see his pants are not on fire. However I don't see that we'd need an RfC for "lies" because nobody has really given a reason not to use that objective statement -- one that doesn't tag him or damn him to eternal fire. Maybe you could make the edit and if anyone has a reason to revert it we could go back to the RfC channel? SPECIFICO talk 19:40, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
- If there is draft wording, I would be willing to withdraw this RFC to start that one, in hopes of gaining a consensus.Casprings (talk) 19:37, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
- I think an RfC about the plural noun "lies" with appropriate attribution (whatever that would be) would stand a better chance. I suspect I would support that. This stuff is problematic only in wiki voice, imo. It's too late to morph this RfC into that one, but we could agree to abort to save time, per WP:RFCEND. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:32, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
- Bear in mind that an unusually large number of the "oppose" lines are mirrors without any addition to the substantive discussion. I read the consensus so far as favoring some form of inclusion, though more strongly for lie than liar. These things will all become clearer with time as various pending stories develop one way or other to a conclusion. SPECIFICO talk 19:22, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
- You're right, I did a quick count and it looks like it's about 21 Oppose - 8 Support right now, so I guess a snow would be inappropriate. Let the debate rage on haha. EDIT: Just to clarify, I wasn't questioning anyone's motives for the votes themselves - just noting that even editors who are using this RfC as a forum to attack the man are voting "Oppose" as well. Hidden Tempo (talk) 18:24, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
FWIW - Re the word "unencyclopedic" => please note, according to Wikipedia => "... the terms "unencyclopedic", and its flip-side "encyclopedic", are too general to be useful in deletion discussions ..." - in any case - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 17:14, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
- Contentious labels, brought up by Scjessey, is more on point. Objective3000 (talk) 18:31, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
- Please note that you linked to a WP:ESSAY and not a WP:GUIDELINE. So no, there's nothing in your assertion that can be accurately described as "according to Wikipedia"--it's only one editor's opinion. And not very common one, either; veteran users routinely use the term "unencyclopedic" when something is flatly and plainly wrong in tone for an encyclopedia. Though most will also qualify the usage with more particular and context-relevant criticisms which....well, would you look at that, all of the editors using the term above have done.. Snow let's rap 01:53, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
- Thank you *very much* for your comments - yes - *entirely* agree - use of the word "unencyclopedic" (see WP:UNENCYCLOPEDIC) may be worthy of further considerations in Wikipedia discussions after all - Thanks again for your comments - and - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 13:16, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
Comment: This RfC is extremely difficult to evaluate as written. A false statement is not necessarily a lie, since, as Casprings notes, a lying requires the intent to deceive. Further, many of the listed sources are explicitly opinions sources and therefore unreliable, especially for such as exceptional claim. Therefore, I personally would like to see a list of reliable non-opinion sources that expressly call Trump a liar. (I am not watching this page, so please ping me if you want my attention.) --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 22:17, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
- Which is another reason that using softer words like “falsehoods” makes more sense. Plenty of resources exist for such. Objective3000 (talk) 22:24, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
- I personally doubt this is the case, but if there is sufficient sourcing to call Trump a liar, then I would probably support it. It's worth tracking. Unfortunately this RfC doesn't advance Casprings's or BullRangifer's cause. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 17:44, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
Comment. Read Dan MacGuill, "The Lies of Donald Trump’s Critics, and How They Shape His Many Personas", Snopes.com, July 12, 2017. "An in-depth analysis of the false allegations and misleading claims made against the 45th President since his inauguration." Snopes.com is a mainstream reputable source. --Dervorguilla (talk) 23:34, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
Close requested
[5] ―Mandruss ☎ 04:49, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
Trump of US military ban on trans people -- Is this true or false?
On July 26, 2017, Donald Trump tweeted:
"After consultation with my Generals and military experts, please be advised that the United States Government will not accept or allow......"[6]
"....Transgender individuals to serve in any capacity in the U.S. Military. Our military must be focused on decisive and overwhelming....."[7]
"....victory and cannot be burdened with the tremendous medical costs and disruption that transgender in the military would entail. Thank you"[8]
Should we add a bit about this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by BoredBored (talk • contribs) 12:29, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- New York Times, Trump Says Transgender People Will Not Be Allowed in the Military ―Mandruss ☎ 13:06, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- We should definitely have it in Presidency of Donald Trump, and perhaps have it in Donald Trump#Social issues and/or Social policy of Donald Trump. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 14:14, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- Yes, this is a significant policy issue that should go in Presidency of Donald Trump, but isn't really relevant to the biography of the man's life. Hidden Tempo (talk) 15:39, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- We should definitely have it in Presidency of Donald Trump, and perhaps have it in Donald Trump#Social issues and/or Social policy of Donald Trump. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 14:14, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- Include We need to keep in mind that this is his biography and not the article on his political views, so UNDUE is a concern, but I do think this deserves a single-sentence mention under "social issues". The WordsmithTalk to me 15:49, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- Well, it looks like it won't be implemented until the policy is reviewed and ironed out [9], so it looks like we can take a breath for now, per WP:NOTNEWS and WP:RECENT. But regardless, there's a few pages devoted to his policies and presidency - no need to cram every decision he makes into the president's BLP. Hidden Tempo (talk) 18:10, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- I agree with Casprings and The Wordsmith. This is significant, especially given the bizarre way in which it was announced. It deserves at least a sentence in this bio. The implementation details are not really a factor.- MrX 18:19, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- What is "it" that's significant? A tweet about trans people in the military? You want to put a tweet about his feelings about trans people in the military in his BLP? I really don't see any way around WP:NOTNEWS, here. Hidden Tempo (talk)
- What is significant is that Trump used social media to announce a major policy change; that he neglected to tell the DOD and the Joint Chiefs; and that the policy is highly controversial, or as The New Yorker called it, "retrograde cruelty". I know such bizarre actions are the new norm for Trump, but in the larger context, it is nothing less short of extraordinary.- MrX 20:40, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- It also betrays a lack of understanding of the Constitution. I'm no scholar, but it seems to me that Article I, Section 8 pretty much says that it is Congress that determines the composition of the armed services, not the President. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:02, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- Not in practice. "Ash Carter, the Defense secretary under Obama, ended the ban on transgender people serving openly in the military in 2016, but allowed for a year-long review process to allow the Pentagon to determine how it would accept new transgender recruits into the military. On the eve of that one-year deadline, Mattis announced that he was delaying the implementation of the new policy, saying he needed more time." cf. Executive Order 9981.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 21:17, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- It also betrays a lack of understanding of the Constitution. I'm no scholar, but it seems to me that Article I, Section 8 pretty much says that it is Congress that determines the composition of the armed services, not the President. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:02, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- What is significant is that Trump used social media to announce a major policy change; that he neglected to tell the DOD and the Joint Chiefs; and that the policy is highly controversial, or as The New Yorker called it, "retrograde cruelty". I know such bizarre actions are the new norm for Trump, but in the larger context, it is nothing less short of extraordinary.- MrX 20:40, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- What is "it" that's significant? A tweet about trans people in the military? You want to put a tweet about his feelings about trans people in the military in his BLP? I really don't see any way around WP:NOTNEWS, here. Hidden Tempo (talk)
- I agree with Casprings and The Wordsmith. This is significant, especially given the bizarre way in which it was announced. It deserves at least a sentence in this bio. The implementation details are not really a factor.- MrX 18:19, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- Well, it looks like it won't be implemented until the policy is reviewed and ironed out [9], so it looks like we can take a breath for now, per WP:NOTNEWS and WP:RECENT. But regardless, there's a few pages devoted to his policies and presidency - no need to cram every decision he makes into the president's BLP. Hidden Tempo (talk) 18:10, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose on this page for now. Until reliable sources agree on details like when this will take effect (if ever), it's too nebulous to include here. Power~enwiki (talk) 21:04, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- Again, implementation is not what we're talking about; we are talking about the policy announcement. What details about the policy announcement do think (reliable) sources disagree on?- MrX 21:14, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- There's no section on this page currently regarding Trump's usage of social media, which is what the "policy announcement" part is. Power~enwiki (talk) 21:17, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- Again, implementation is not what we're talking about; we are talking about the policy announcement. What details about the policy announcement do think (reliable) sources disagree on?- MrX 21:14, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- There is Donald Trump on social media as another potential location to add to. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 21:29, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- Mixed We are told by the WH that his tweets are official pronouncements. RS state the Pentagon is examining how to enable this policy announcement. I would not include in this article at this point. It should be in one or two other articles. Objective3000 (talk) 21:37, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- Not in this article. This is a biography, we can't include every single policy he announces. It has already been added to several other articles. --MelanieN (talk) 18:45, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
RfC about Russian affairs in Trump sidebar
You are invited to participate in Template talk:Donald Trump series#RfC: Selection and display of articles about Russia. — JFG talk 16:54, 3 August 2017 (UTC)
Donald Trump, Conspiracy Theorist
Donald Trump was removed from the category American Conspiracy Theorists yesterday, though given his political origins he plainly belongs to it. Per WP:COPDEF, it seems rather obvious that the category should remain as Trump's penchant for conspiracy theories is what established his notability as an American politician. This label was added in May 2011 at the height of birtherism, and his campaign/presidency has been noted for entertaining/propogating/creating conspiracy theories. At one time, this article housed an entire fringe views section and there was a discussion about adding "conspiracy theorist" to the lede. Regardless, here are a handful of sources which describe Trump as a conspiracy theorist or at the least a purveyor of conspiracy theories.
- http://www.newsweek.com/trump-become-conspiracy-theorist-chief-442847
- http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/18/politics/trump-obama-muslim-birther/
- https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/26/us/politics/donald-trump-presidential-race.html
- https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/01/the-conspiracy-theorist-in-the-white-house/514343/
- http://www.cnn.com/2017/03/04/opinions/trump-conspiracy-theories-zelizer/index.html
- http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/10/trump-infowars-alex-jones-clinton-conspiracy-theories/
- http://time.com/4602211/donald-trump-conspiracy-theory-college-courses/
- https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/politics/2016/09/18/ten-more-conspiracy-theories-embraced-donald-trump/oxqHeEzIbovNdOf4bUog8H/story.html
- https://www.usnews.com/opinion/thomas-jefferson-street/articles/2017-03-07/breitbart-fuels-donald-trumps-wiretapping-and-other-conspiracy-theories
- https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-11-02/trump-is-doing-conspiracy-theory-all-wrong
- http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/analysis-trump-s-lengthy-history-conspiracy-theories-rumors-n649526
Lizzius (talk) 14:46, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
- At the height of the birther stuff back in 2015 perhaps. These days it is a very minor part of his life and undue for his main BLP. I agree with the removal. PackMecEng (talk) 14:57, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
- His continuing propagation of conspiracy theories would seem to negate your point, which also doesn't address that the "birther stuff" launched his modern political career. Look at the recency of some of the sources I provided, or do a search of your own to convince yourself. Lizzius (talk) 15:05, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
- I mention his birther stuff, because that is the only one that has had any amount of significance. Past that, none have come even close to notable. To label him a conspiracy theorist because of that would be POV and Undue. PackMecEng (talk) 15:33, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
- Even if that were true, see again the consideration that birtherism launched his career and established his political notability. Besides that, almost all of the conspiracy theories since then are, in fact, notable. They are documented on what feels like a daily basis by RS. Lizzius (talk) 15:55, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
- Except they did not launch his political career. As noted below, he was running for office in 2000 well before the birther junk. Also notable requires lasting coverage which there has not been. It ends up being a blip and then forgotten for the next fish that comes alone. Which is why they do not meet notable. PackMecEng (talk) 16:52, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
- Even if that were true, see again the consideration that birtherism launched his career and established his political notability. Besides that, almost all of the conspiracy theories since then are, in fact, notable. They are documented on what feels like a daily basis by RS. Lizzius (talk) 15:55, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
- I mention his birther stuff, because that is the only one that has had any amount of significance. Past that, none have come even close to notable. To label him a conspiracy theorist because of that would be POV and Undue. PackMecEng (talk) 15:33, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
- His continuing propagation of conspiracy theories would seem to negate your point, which also doesn't address that the "birther stuff" launched his modern political career. Look at the recency of some of the sources I provided, or do a search of your own to convince yourself. Lizzius (talk) 15:05, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
- The editing comment on removing this was "one theory does not a conspiracy theorist make". That’s clearly inaccurate. Among the conspiracy theories he has espoused are birtherism, vaccine conspiracy theories, wiretapping his office, millions of illegal aliens voting (all for Hillary), election rigging (in advance of the election), states not giving info to the 'voter fraud' commission are hiding something, China is behind a climate change hoax, Ted Cruz’s father had something to do with the assassination of JFK, he suggested Scalia's death was suspicious, he suggested Vince Foster’s death was fishy, he said: "One of the great cons is asbestos. There's nothing wrong except the mob has a strong lobby in Albany because they have the dumps and control the truck," polls are phony, and Hillary was paying protestors at Trump rallies to promote violence.
- Trump has also been connected to conspiracy theories in many RS.
- Having said that, I’m on the fence. I’m not sure what the definition of "conspiracy theorist" is and I’m not certain what is meant be "defining characteristic". Leaning toward inclusion at this point, particularly as many articles use this categorization for folk supporting only one conspiracy theory. Objective3000 (talk) 15:24, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
- The Obama birth certificate controversy didn't launch Trump's political career (I'm assuming that's what you meant). Trump ran for president in 2000 (and won some primaries), when Obama was still a community organizer and nobody had ever heard of the man. Merriam-Webster defines "conspiracy theorist" as such: "a person who holds a theory that explains an event or situation as the result of a secret plan by usually powerful people or groups." Right away, that crosses off the supposed anti-vaxx stuff, states #Resist'ing the voter fraud investigation, Scalia's death, Vince Foster's death, and inaccurate polling data. The other stuff was either one offhanded comment that Trump either no longer believes (or never really believed, but rather used as a rhetorical tool during his campaign), or is a real stretch to fit the true definition. Additionally, conspiracy theorists are generally referred to as such and are known for perpetuating conspiracy theories. For example, all RS (from all sides of the political spectrum) refer to Alex Jones as a conspiracy theorist: Fox News, WSJ, NYT, WaPo, NBC, CBS, ABC, Newsweek, Time, USAToday, you name it. On the other hand, only a select group of like-minded sources (the ones
you namednamed by Lizzius) are willing to cross that threshold for the president. The category is inaccurate and undue. Hidden Tempo (talk) 16:36, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
- The Obama birth certificate controversy didn't launch Trump's political career (I'm assuming that's what you meant). Trump ran for president in 2000 (and won some primaries), when Obama was still a community organizer and nobody had ever heard of the man. Merriam-Webster defines "conspiracy theorist" as such: "a person who holds a theory that explains an event or situation as the result of a secret plan by usually powerful people or groups." Right away, that crosses off the supposed anti-vaxx stuff, states #Resist'ing the voter fraud investigation, Scalia's death, Vince Foster's death, and inaccurate polling data. The other stuff was either one offhanded comment that Trump either no longer believes (or never really believed, but rather used as a rhetorical tool during his campaign), or is a real stretch to fit the true definition. Additionally, conspiracy theorists are generally referred to as such and are known for perpetuating conspiracy theories. For example, all RS (from all sides of the political spectrum) refer to Alex Jones as a conspiracy theorist: Fox News, WSJ, NYT, WaPo, NBC, CBS, ABC, Newsweek, Time, USAToday, you name it. On the other hand, only a select group of like-minded sources (the ones
- Many sources cite birtherism as the beginning of the path that ultimately led to his presidency (here's a good read for more than just that reason: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2017-07-06/the-remaking-of-donald-trump). Your definition of conspiracy theory is unbelievably narrow, and though it might make for an interesting debate, Wikipedia doesn't use "Hidden Tempo's" definition. Almost all of the things you note above are actually described as conspiracy theories in Wikipedia's voice because RS describe them as such. Not sure what you mean by "like minded" sources... If you have a specific criticism please name it. Lastly, Alex Jones is an example of one kind of particularly well-known conspiracy theorist, not necessarily the standard-bearer for use of the term. Additionally, that's all that Alex Jones is well known for. How clunky would it be for RS to say "Donald Trump, reality television star, President of the United States, author, and conspiracy theorist..." Context matters, and in many articles discussing the ideology of Trump, he is called out for supporting conspiracy theories or he is outright called a conspiracy theorist. Lizzius (talk) 18:49, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
- There is broad mainstream coverage to document his repeated promotion of a number of conspiracy theories. We would not change the title of the article to Donald Trump (conspiracy theorist), nor is the current thread is proposing we include it in the first sentence of the lede, e.g. "Donald Trump, the 45th President of the United States, is an American real estate developer, media personality, and conspiracy theorist." I think that given the abundance of verification from RS, he amply clears the bar for a category listing, however. SPECIFICO talk 16:39, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
I think the category is inappropriate for this article. Yes, he often says things that are not true, or repeats stories he has heard or read about. This is more related to his habit of telling falsehoods, and of saying what his audience wants to hear, rather than actually believing in conspiracy theories. It is not something he is known for in the way that (say) Alex Jones is. IMO we would need a much stronger connection before we could include it in the biography of a U.S. president. --MelanieN (talk) 17:02, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
- P.S. In order to put a subject in a particular category, there has to be support or mention of that category in the article. Is there anything in this article that says he is a conspiracy theorist? I didn't see anything, and I don't propose adding anything. --MelanieN (talk) 17:04, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
- He has contributed to major conspiracy theories. Birtherism is the most obvious. He pushed this relentlessly for five years, not only repeating what others had said; but claiming that he had detectives investigating it and "you wouldn’t believe what they are finding". [10] He has pushed the climate change hoax narrative since 2012, culminating in his cancelation of the Paris Agreement. [11] He has pushed the anti-vaxxing conspiracy theory stating: "I am being proven right about massive vaccinations—the doctors lied. Save our children & their future." Trump has referred to vaccines as the cause of "doctor-inflicted autism." [12] [13] These are major conspiracy theories. The people listed in this category are not all like Alex Jones. Most are only tied to one conspiracy theory. No, there is no mention in the article of him as a "conspiracy theorist". But, there is mention of him pushing conspiracy theories. I’m still on the fence. Objective3000 (talk) 17:58, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
- There used to be an entire section dedicated to his fringe beliefs, but it looks like that has mostly been cut from this article and presumably farmed out to specific controversy articles or simply washed from his biography for one reason or another. I'm sure many of these were left out of the article for the sake of brevity, or relative importance for such a bombastic personality, but much like the "American Author" category which also bears no support in the main article, "Conspiracy Theorist" is part and parcel of the Trump trade/claim to political notability. Lizzius (talk) 19:11, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
- MelanieN, the birther narrative, which he promoted in many media, including his claim that he sent a team of investigators to Hawaii and "you wouldn't believe what they found..." and so forth, is the first time many people ever heard of Pres. Trump or saw him on the tube. Then his refusal to retract that claim after the birth certificate was published, and in addition, his humiliation by Obama at a televised Washington press banquet led to widespread global media discussion of his conspiracy theories. I would say it's not essential who called him what POS -- theory promoter, theorist, theorizer, usw. SPECIFICO talk 19:50, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
−
- Lizzius - Are there any sources that refer to Trump as a conspiracy theorist prior to his 1987 full page ad criticizing America's foreign defense policy? Or rumors of his presidential run and campaign speech that same year?[14] Or even prior to 2000, his first bonafide candidacy for president, where he found some success? Donald Trump has been politically notable at a minimum for 30 years, long before any of the allegations above were released into the media ether. Many Republican congressmen and politicians questioned Obama's birthplace, especially after the former First Lady referred to Kenya as his "home country."[15] In fact, 72% of Republican voters and 20% of Democrat voters don't agree that Obama was born in Hawaii.[16] Surely you aren't suggesting we add the category to Republican Party (United States)? If questioning Obama's birthplace is the primary litmus test for adding this category, this sets a precedent that will need to be extended to hundreds, if not thousands of BLP's. Hidden Tempo (talk) 19:50, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
- I don't understand your reasoning for adding it to the Republican Party page; you're not making a particularly cogent argument there. As a person who gained notoriety for trafficking in conspiracy theories (and continues to do so as President of the United States), Donald Trump should have the "Conspiracy Theorist" label attached to him. As a party which might harbor people who believe a certain thing, no, of course the tag doesn't belong on the Republican Party. The extension to "thousands" of BLP's is also non sequitur, and a case of other stuff exists. The fact of the matter is that birtherism, even if it was a case of right person/right time, is what gave Trump the political traction to launch to the Presidency. Conspiracy theories are part of the 2016 political persona that got Trump to where he is. I won't bother sending you to hyperlink oblivion, but support for all of this has been given in previous paragraphs if you care to see where the point is coming from. Lizzius (talk) 20:06, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
- The point I made was that you feel that Trump should be labeled a conspiracy theorist because he (at one point, not anymore) believed that Obama was not born in the United States. Since that criteria also applies to many other politicians and the vast majority of Republican voters (as well as 1 in 5 Dems), your reasoning extends to their BLPs as well. It's not some fringe theory, like shapeshifting reptilians. It's a real point of disagreement in political history.
- If your criteria isn't enough to label Mike Coffman a conspiracy theorist (who doubted Obama's birthplace, and then later retracted his comments a la Trump), why is it enough for Trump? It's not OTHERSTUFF, it's the same issue. Certainly a controversy that had been dead for three years doesn't deserve more credit for Trump's traction than issues such as illegal immigration, healthcare, and so on. I believe it came up once, maybe twice during the entire campaign, and that was Trump's renouncement of the theory. As far as "support for all of this," I haven't seen any in this particular discussion. I'm seeing weak support and ambivalence from two editors, but it doesn't seem there's any burning desire aside from yourself to add this category back in. Hidden Tempo (talk) 21:02, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
- Hidden, that's kinda like saying "did Chas Manson ever murder anyone before 1960?" or "Did anyone think the World Trade Center had any design flaws before 2001?" We're not considering a relative weighting or an evaluation, just a descriptive category. SPECIFICO talk 21:09, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
- The belief that Obama was not born in the U.S., and therefore not a valid president, is a conspiracy theory, not a simple disagreement. Period. Trump was not just one of the believers; he was a major proponent, claiming he had investigators on the case, taking credit for Obama releasing his birth certificate, offering $5,000,000 to see Obama’s school records, claiming no one had ever seen him in Hawaii, and only quietly giving up on it last September, not three years ago. He also heavily pushed anti-vaxxing and climate change hoax conspiracy theories. In every rally, he repeats or invents new conspiracies. Should this rate the same amount of ink as other items in this article? No. Just a category at the end that no one sees. Objective3000 (talk) 21:13, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
- Yeah, I mean we can characterize the controversy a multitude of ways. I personally disagree with the title of the Barack Obama birth conspiracy theories article, but we're not disputing that here - that's my fault for getting into the weeds on the validity of the theory itself. But regardless, the issue was settled in 2012, three years before his escalator speech, and as far as I know, the only time he mentioned the theory is when he was directly asked about it and the denial that followed. He in no way, shape, or form used it as "traction" to launch his political career. In any case. we could just do an RfC if it's really that big of a point of contention. Hidden Tempo (talk) 21:40, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
- Well, the issue was not settled in 2012 in the mind of Trump, according to his statements. And Trump did not back off of this until 11 months ago. He didn’t drop it until four years after you say it was settled. What you are saying adds to the characterization that Trump is a conspiracy theorist. Objective3000 (talk) 21:56, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
- Yeah, I mean we can characterize the controversy a multitude of ways. I personally disagree with the title of the Barack Obama birth conspiracy theories article, but we're not disputing that here - that's my fault for getting into the weeds on the validity of the theory itself. But regardless, the issue was settled in 2012, three years before his escalator speech, and as far as I know, the only time he mentioned the theory is when he was directly asked about it and the denial that followed. He in no way, shape, or form used it as "traction" to launch his political career. In any case. we could just do an RfC if it's really that big of a point of contention. Hidden Tempo (talk) 21:40, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
- I'm not familiar enough with Rep. Coffman to know whether he's a conspiracy theorist, but I wouldn't cite him as a truthsayer, either. [17]. SPECIFICO talk 21:18, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
- The belief that Obama was not born in the U.S., and therefore not a valid president, is a conspiracy theory, not a simple disagreement. Period. Trump was not just one of the believers; he was a major proponent, claiming he had investigators on the case, taking credit for Obama releasing his birth certificate, offering $5,000,000 to see Obama’s school records, claiming no one had ever seen him in Hawaii, and only quietly giving up on it last September, not three years ago. He also heavily pushed anti-vaxxing and climate change hoax conspiracy theories. In every rally, he repeats or invents new conspiracies. Should this rate the same amount of ink as other items in this article? No. Just a category at the end that no one sees. Objective3000 (talk) 21:13, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
- I don't understand your reasoning for adding it to the Republican Party page; you're not making a particularly cogent argument there. As a person who gained notoriety for trafficking in conspiracy theories (and continues to do so as President of the United States), Donald Trump should have the "Conspiracy Theorist" label attached to him. As a party which might harbor people who believe a certain thing, no, of course the tag doesn't belong on the Republican Party. The extension to "thousands" of BLP's is also non sequitur, and a case of other stuff exists. The fact of the matter is that birtherism, even if it was a case of right person/right time, is what gave Trump the political traction to launch to the Presidency. Conspiracy theories are part of the 2016 political persona that got Trump to where he is. I won't bother sending you to hyperlink oblivion, but support for all of this has been given in previous paragraphs if you care to see where the point is coming from. Lizzius (talk) 20:06, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
- Lizzius - Are there any sources that refer to Trump as a conspiracy theorist prior to his 1987 full page ad criticizing America's foreign defense policy? Or rumors of his presidential run and campaign speech that same year?[14] Or even prior to 2000, his first bonafide candidacy for president, where he found some success? Donald Trump has been politically notable at a minimum for 30 years, long before any of the allegations above were released into the media ether. Many Republican congressmen and politicians questioned Obama's birthplace, especially after the former First Lady referred to Kenya as his "home country."[15] In fact, 72% of Republican voters and 20% of Democrat voters don't agree that Obama was born in Hawaii.[16] Surely you aren't suggesting we add the category to Republican Party (United States)? If questioning Obama's birthplace is the primary litmus test for adding this category, this sets a precedent that will need to be extended to hundreds, if not thousands of BLP's. Hidden Tempo (talk) 19:50, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
I very much oppose including said category in this article. I think there is a conflation of making/exploiting conspiracy theories and lying. Many Trump statements are simply lies, not conspiracy theories. Frankly the only conspiracy theory associated with Trump is Birtherism and that's it. He has been notable for a lot more than that. Including this category would probably be undue. Save it for conspiracy theorists who make a living off of them, like Alex Jones and Mike Cernovich. NoMoreHeroes (talk) 03:26, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
- Ditto. Save the category for egregious peddlers of the Moon landing hoax. — JFG talk 07:24, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
- The purpose of categories is not to name and shame but to help readers navigate to find further information on what they are researching. It is not helpful that that we swell the list of people notable for their writings on conspiracy theories is swelled with the names of people who have been accused of subscribing to them. Furthermore I do not think that Trump meets the definition. While he is quite happy to accuse his opponents of conspiring against him, he does not attribute it to the all-knowing, all-powerful, all-evil clique that supposed controls the world. TFD (talk) 16:41, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
- Except for the secret agent, evil or not, who falsified Obama's birth certificate long ago, knowing that the impostor would need one day to pretend to be an American so he could serve 8 years as the Presdident. Oh, and he hired a team of private investigators to go to Hawaii, and you won't believe what they found! Well, actually that last bit is true, but not in the way Trump meant to say. SPECIFICO talk 00:14, 6 August 2017 (UTC)
As I said, I am on the fence. The reason I have against inclusion is that he is not known solely for conspiracy theories (although that is also true for anti-vaxxers and others). The reason I have for inclusion is that he mentions conspiracy theories in nearly every speech, including his most recent. The “dark state” is against him. Hillary must be investigated for things she was already cleared of. Millions of illegal aliens voted against him, and none against, and he created a commission to investigate. All the investigations run by Mueller are run by Democrats, even though Mueller is a Republican. But, I will still take no position on inclusion at this point and this discussion should probably be dropped until there exists more evidence. Objective3000 (talk) 00:29, 6 August 2017 (UTC)
Infobox warring
@Corkythehornetfan, JFG, Calton, and Mandruss: There has been edit warring over removal of some items from the infobox. I was tempted to lock the page to stop the warring, but instead I am asking you all to come here and discuss it. I see that you have all carefully been observing the letter of the DS, but the spirit of the DS is not to get into this kind of war in the first place. Please work out your differences here and do not make any more edits to the infobox until consensus is reached. Thank you. --MelanieN (talk) 00:02, 6 August 2017 (UTC)
- @MelanieN: My one revert was entirely procedural (I'm pretty sure that reverts that enforce the ArbCom restrictions aren't considered part of an edit war). I have no opinion as to the content issue (which put me in a good position to do the procedural revert without suspicion of bad faith). Anyway, did you check the times on that edit war? I had the impression that none of those supporting the edit cared to take it to talk, so the issue was dead. ―Mandruss ☎ 00:06, 6 August 2017 (UTC)
- Yes, Mandruss, I realize that you and JFG were simply reverting the removal. I just pinged all four of you to encourage discussion - and to try to head off any possible repercussions for anyone. If there is no discussion here, then I assume there will also not be any more removals and reverts either, and the issue will, as you say, be dead. --MelanieN (talk) 00:14, 6 August 2017 (UTC)
- @MelanieN: I reminded user Calton about the ArbCom restrictions yesterday per best practices,[18] resulting in this angry response accusing me of a "clumsy attempt at intimidation". Since Calton did not re-revert, and Corkythehornetfan had self-reverted, I judged that the best approach was to let things die that point. Now they are resurrected. ―Mandruss ☎ 00:23, 6 August 2017 (UTC)
- Yes, Mandruss, I realize that you and JFG were simply reverting the removal. I just pinged all four of you to encourage discussion - and to try to head off any possible repercussions for anyone. If there is no discussion here, then I assume there will also not be any more removals and reverts either, and the issue will, as you say, be dead. --MelanieN (talk) 00:14, 6 August 2017 (UTC)
- Comment – The current consensus says the external links section, not the infobox. I don't care enough to go thru all of this mess too start a discussion. If it is wanted in the infobox, it should've been added to the consensus. Too many editors edit this page to where it is practically impossible to edit (which is ridiculous) and feels like they are "owning" the article. So as I mentioned on my talk page, don't expect a discussion from me because I don't care enough. Corkythehornetfan (ping me) 00:38, 6 August 2017 (UTC)
- Support Link I dislike everything about Donald Trump's use of Twitter, but unless there's a specific Wikipedia policy that forbids it, I feel the infobox does need to link to Trump's Twitter account. Power~enwiki (talk) 02:10, 6 August 2017 (UTC)