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== ham? == |
== ham? == |
Revision as of 17:41, 29 April 2011
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Donald Trump was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | |||||||||||||
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Current status: Former good article nominee |
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This page has archives. Sections older than 59 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III. |
The Certificate Issue Was Not a "Conspiracy Theory"
The issue was just whether Obama met one technical criterion for the presidency (i.e., birth in the U.S.). With Obama's release of his long-form birth certificate, that issue, which had dragged on for years as a low-level controversy, has been resolved. But Trump could arguably claim credit for persuading Obama to finally release the information and end the controversy. But no "conspiracy" was ever involved.
See http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/76880c16-70dc-11e0-9b1d-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1KpEmufpu —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.216.125.82 (talk) 13:50, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
Donald Trump Association with American Communications Network (ACN)
Donald trump has recently become associated with the alleged pyramid scheme American Communications Network. This organization charges a fee of $500 to new sales people, Donald Trump appears in their initial marketing video. http://www.acninc.com/acn/us/trump.html Jaquesjack (talk) 17:49, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
Need citation that Donald Trump is Catholic
According to a number of biographies, Donald Trump's parents were both longtime members of Marble Collegiate Church. Trump married Ivana Winklmayr at Marble Collegiate (New York magazine 10/15/1990). Dr. Arthur Caliandro, minister of Marble Collegiate, performed his wedding to Marla Maples in 1993 (New York Times 12/21/1993). Maples said she met him at Marble Collegiate. His most recent wedding was at an Episcopal church. Trump's father's funeral was at Marble Collegiate (NY Daily News 6/16/1999) as was his mother's (NY Daily News 6/26/1999). He clearly was raised Protestant. What is the source for identifying him as Catholic? Thanks. Bebill (talk) 23:00, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
- That's nonsense, Eversman. Donald Trump has never self-identified as Catholic. In attending and marrying in another church he would be a former Catholic, anyway, even if it were true. Fred Trump's article makes no reference to being religious. If Trump's parents weren't Catholic and he didn't convert, how did he become Catholic? NOTE that Cindy Adams is not a reliable source and I suspect the UK Telegraph is mistaken. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 01:16, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- See "Reformed Church in America?" above, which is well-researched. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 01:37, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- See this Trump genealogy site, which shows he is of German, not Austrian descent. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 01:37, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- Today I made some edits to the sentence on Trump as Catholic. I formalized the URL links into refs and removed the "see also" wording as neither of these things conforms to the manual of style. I also added a few words to clearly attribute each of the sources. I believe that the current text is in line with the consensus at the post on the BLP noticeboard [1] but if some editors disagree I'm open to discussion and other opinions. Let's work together on this. Cheers!-- — Keithbob • Talk • 19:26, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
- Politics Daily says he's apparently Dutch Reformed. (Impertinent factoid: "For my part," Irving has Knickerbocker say, "I look upon our old Dutch families as the only local nobility, and the real lords of the soil....") IAC, here is a link for his being married in the Dutch Reformed Church to Ivana. Then, an entirely different Telegraph article (than the one that said he was Catholic) mentions he sometimes attends the just-mentioned congregation. Trump attended Fordham, a Roman Catholic university, but on page 240 of The Trumps: Three Generations That Built an Empire it says, "At Fordham...he would stick out in many ways. ... He was not Catholic, and with his little red sports car and well-tailored clothes, he was obviously wealthier than most of his classmates."--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 13:11, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
- Trump's father joined Collegiate Church--and according to the NYT Trump met his second wife there.--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 00:45, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
- In a 2011 interview, Trump specifically identifies himself as a Presbyterian. [2] I've added this to the article. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 02:07, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
- Maybe The Telegraph was quoting Wikipedia about Trump's being Roman Catholic--?! As it is, Gwenda Blair, the biographer, may well be correct that the Protestant-raised Trump was not Catholic while attending Fordham University.--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 16:40, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
Father
{{edit protected}}
it said that Donald Trump joined his father's company, The Trump Organization. which is incurrect; his father's company name was "Elizabeth Trump & Son;" the Trump Organization was founded by Donald Trump in 1971.
also add to Fred Trump, Self Made Millionaire (not just "wealthy")
- Done--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 18:18, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
Edit request from 86.133.207.45, 27 February 2011
Donald might be somewhat surprised to read that he was apparently born in 1912 - please insert the correct year. 86.133.207.45 (talk) 11:57, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
- I'm guessing it was Already done or Fixed or Reverted. Baseball Watcher 23:56, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
This sentence uses the word "evoke" when "invoke" is correct: "Arguing that the crisis is an Act of God, he evoked a clause in the contract to not pay the loan and initiated a countersuit asserting his image has been damaged.[34]" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.176.201.122 (talk) 14:34, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
Edit request from JordenLGD, 2 March 2011
{{edit semi-protected}}
The Trump Hollywood building in Hollywood, Florida that is licensed under Donald Trump's name can be linked to http://www.trumphollywood.com.
JordenLGD (talk) 19:30, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
- Wikipedia guideline WP:EL do not allow URL's to be placed in the body of the article. URL's are only permitted as part of a source citation or part of the External Links list. Also, the guideline WP:EL does not permit excessive numbers of links in the External Links list. This article is about a person no about the real estate holdings of a corporation of which he is an officer or shareholder. There is already an Ext Link to the Trump organization which lists Trump Hollywood as one if its holdings and provides links for more info. Therefore I would like to deny this request. What do others think?-- — Keithbob • Talk • 21:24, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
- Not done: Per above. Reaper Eternal (talk) 16:45, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
Factually inaccurate bit about Swifton
Concerning Trump's first major venture, the 'Swifton Village,' I've found an article from the Cincinnati Enquirer suggesting that Trump may have lied in his memoir about his involvement in the dea, and also cites a VERY different figure for the property's sale. Check the article here. Considering the current info is unsouced, I'm gunna go ahead and make a few changes; If my source is bad or you've got better info, let me know. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.5.196.111 (talk) 08:10, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
- I don't know much about the wiki-etiquette concerning protected articles, but I made some of the changes I discussed. I left out any mention of Gwenda Blair's claims, as I haven't read the book myself. If anyone reviews the above article and feels that I'm leaving something important out, I'd be eager to hear about it.
Lopside (talk) 09:06, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
Philanthropy?
I noticed (or did I miss it) that there is no section on philanthropy or any charitable activities. Ok, I didn't read about the golf courses, but that isn't philanthropy in my opinion.Mylittlezach (talk) 01:05, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
- Philanthropic activities can be included in the Personal section if they are significant and comes from reliable sources. -- — Keithbob • Talk • 21:37, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
In the media
Comedy Central aired the Roast of Donald Trump on March 15, 2011. This belongs in the "In the Media" section.
- We have to remember that this is an encyclopedia not the entertainment section of a newspaper. -- — Keithbob • Talk • 21:36, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
Party Affiliation
The cited source listed that he has been an independent in the past, and is currently a Republican, besides stating just below it that he is affiliated with the Republican Party. Edited accordingly. Homo Logica (talk) 04:53, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
Family, wife Melania Knauss
The parenthetical "who is 24 years Trump's junior" does not add value to the article. Opinions? Xburrows (talk) 14:38, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
Why is there nothing about ACN ?
some ACN personnel I have talked to talk about him as if he was a founder of the company so I find that odd that it is not even mentioned on his wikipedia page
67.204.12.212 (talk) 00:51, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
Books
Trump wrote a book called Think like a Champion. It came out about two years ago. It's also his most recent book. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.158.224.232 (talk) 03:56, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
Circularity?
(wp:CIRCULARity)--with regard to Trump's religion--that is, in its reference to the The Telegraph's misstatement? Which of course would be the case if, due to some Wikipedia editor's having added long ago that Trump was Catholic into his infobox, the Telegraph reporter saw this and repeated the error. Trump has been a subject of a number of biographies, including Gwenda Blair's Trump: Master Apprentice (2000, 2005) which said about Trump's Calvinistly straight-laced American (Reformed Protestant) dad and Scots-born (likely Presbyterian: The Church of Scotland) mom: "Fred and Mary made sure their children had a good grounding in life. Sundays meant the First Presbyterian Church...."
[Correct self. My guess was wrong. Here's the evidence]:
- The Telegraph article was published October 5, 2010.
- On which date Trump's Wikipedia entry says nada about his religion.
Never mind.--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 16:36, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
Military Draft Status for Vietnam Era Military Service
Does anyone know why he didn't serve in the military or what his draft classification was during the Vietnam war era? Since he has indicated a interest for political office I'm sure that would be a valid topic for his Wikipedia page. Kilowattradio (talk) 18:24, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
- From a footnote in Gwenda Blair's Donald Trump: Master Apprentice: "Donald's military career ended with NYMA [New York Military Academy] graduation; despite his athletic prowess, in 1968 he received a medical deferment from the military draft."--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 15:49, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
Birth Certificate
In response to complaints about his Hospital Birth Certificate, Trump released his City of New York Birth Certificate to ABC News on Tuesday, March 29, 2011. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.147.28.1 (talk) 18:29, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
- This information was added to the article by User:Thebert99.--Rollins83 (talk) 13:42, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
- Trump is now becoming best known for his birtherism. Bearian (talk) 21:41, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
2012 presidential polls
According to the article: "A Newsweek poll conducted February 2011 showed that Donald Trump garnered sufficient support to prevail in the November 2012 general election for President of the United States against Barack Obama."
If one reads the source cited, it's actually CNN (themselves citing a Newsweek/Daily Beast poll) commenting that the poll "suggests" that Trump "could just beat President Obama", based on 43-41 poll numbers that actually have Obama ahead. CNN's statement that Trump "could" beat Obama appears to be based on the fact that that 2 point difference is within the 3.5% margin of error. (This may not be why they think that, but it's the only reason listed that possibly backs up that claim; that the article is confusing on this point makes it a poor source in my opinion.) CNN links to the actual poll at the Daily Beast, which makes no conclusions about Trump's numbers vs Obama's.
Please either delete this incorrect assertion, or replace it with the actual facts, e.g. "A Newsweek/Daily Beast poll conducted in February 2011 showed Donald Trump within two percentage points of Barack Obama, with 41% of respondents preferring Trump and 43% preferring Obama." (In this case, the reference should probably go to the Daily Beast article CNN links to.) The fact is that nobody (certainly not Newsweek) has stated that Trump has "garnered sufficient support to prevail." This wording implies a much stronger position than being behind by 2 points with only 84% of respondents decided.
This is not to mention that there are a bunch of other polls out there, practically all showing Obama ahead of any Republican potential...but also showing very high numbers of undecided voters, just like this poll. And plenty of commentators on both sides stating that both candidates could win. So it seems like a pretty POV inclusion to report it in the fashion that it currently is. (Ideally, the statement should be more generalized to state that some early polls show Trump within a few points of Obama, with many voters undecided. Referencing a single poll from almost two months ago isn't a great idea in any case...) 99.55.199.47 (talk) 16:20, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
- I agree that the current text does not accurately reflect the sources cited and needs to be revised or removed entirely.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 16:50, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
- Done — Bility (talk) 17:55, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
I would like to get this article up to GA once more. Please, can a disinterested editor get involved with this? Bearian (talk) 20:43, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
- To be blunt, after all the edits one way and another, in order to avoid any point of view, the article has gotten worse in the past week! The article is now so bland, so much like milk toast, as to make the subject, The Donald, appear to be a milquetoast. He is no Caspar Milquetoast. You all know, love him or hate him, Donald Trump is one of the most fascinating public figures in the United States today. His English Wikipedia article should reflect those circumstances. It should be better written. Bearian (talk) 21:06, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
It's not a neutral article if there's an opinion
The last line in the Family section "The thrice-married Trump is against gay marriage." needs to be removed. It has no place in this section as it has nothing to do with Trump's family. It is meant to express the author's opinion rather than inform the reader. It screws up the neutrality of the article so could someone please edit it out? Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bahdoner (talk • contribs) 12:08, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
- I agree; while both facts are true, tying them together with this wording implies something like "Trump is against non-traditional marriage from his religious viewpoint, despite the fact that his own marriage from that viewpoint is also non-traditional since he's been divorced and remarried." While that's very likely correct, it's not our place to make such an assertion. Both pieces of info are already presented elsewhere for the reader to draw conclusions like that independently. I don't think his views on gay marriage belong in the "Family" section in any case, unless he has a gay family member that we're commenting on, so that sentence should probably just be removed. – 2001:db8:: (rfc | diff) 16:04, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
- I agree the gay marriage point is taken out of context.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 17:01, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, User:2001:db8 is correct on all points. If the consensus is against including it, without further citations, I can abide by that. Again, if I can find citations to back up the claims, I will come to the talk page first before inserting in such claims and ciations. Bearian (talk) 20:59, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
- I agree the gay marriage point is taken out of context.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 17:01, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
Edit semi-protected Donald Trump's forthcoming book
Under Donald Trump#Bibliography please note that Donald Trump's forthcoming book Trump Tower (Vanguard Press, October 11, 2011) is described as "the most indiscreet novel of the decade." acrylicrevolution (talk) 20:10, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
- (e/c) That section is for already published books. It is also a simple listing of the book titles without any extra description. Simply, the description "the most indiscreet novel of the decade" is not an encyclopedic description, particularly in the context of this list. Please gain a consensus on this talkpage for the inclusion of this text. Thanks, Woody (talk) 20:55, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
- Apologies, I thought you wanted "the most..." added to the article. Woody (talk) 20:56, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks, Woody. It is not encyclopedic to note that the publisher, not us, is marketing the book "the most indiscreet novel of the decade"? We are not making that judgment. acrylicrevolution (talk) 21:59, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
Iraq/Afghanistan inaccurate writing
The current article states "Believes the U.S. should disengage in Iraq and Afghanistan[82]" as one of Trump's views, but the reference [82] shows this to be extremely inaccurate. In the interview, Trump calls for the US to take over Iraq's oilfields by force, something that Trump also said to George Stephanopoulos in his recent interview; this appears to be the polar opposite of "disengagement". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.93.35.229 (talk) 12:38, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
Category proposal
Add Trump to "Billionaires with TV shows" Category:Billionaires with TV shows
ham?
The paragraph about his financial problems says he believes it was caused by ham. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LynnieU (talk • contribs) 02:07, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
"Dutch Reformed Church"
I think the link from the text "Dutch Reformed Church" is incorrect.
The Dutch settled New York City (New Amsterdam, at the time) and brought the Reformed Church with them. There are many individual churches in the area that are referred to by the name of "Dutch Reformed Church" but they are actually affiliated with the Reformed Church in America--which was the North American branch of the Dutch Reformed Church and originally called "Reformed Protestant Dutch Church".
Reformed denominations are Calvinist, and the RCA uses a Presbyterian polity form of governance, so it's very similar to Presbyterian and maintains full communion with the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.). Some members of the Reformed Church describe themselves as Presbyterians.
This is original research, but it might help those who are confused by the "Dutch Reformed Church" line in the source cited. The source doesn't make it clear whether he's referring to a local church or the denomination, but I strongly suspect the former. --68.80.222.156 (talk) 12:50, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
- Agree. And thanks for the pertinent info wrt Reformed Churches/Presbyterianism, IP. In any case, there are, indeed, a number of old news sources that reference the fact that Trump attended(/attends?) one or another Dutch Reformed churches in NYC. However, be that as it may, it's silly to simply repeat in the blp the statements by reporters that Trump is "apparently Dutch Reformed"--especially after Trump has now come out and explained that he is in fact Presbyterian (which collaborates what his biographer Gwenda Blair wrote about Trump's upbringing). In other words, solid reporting should trump (no pun intended) every time what was stated as no more than an informed guess, by a couple of sources, that Trump was "Dutch Reformed."
Such ambiguity happens all the time. The Pew survey of what religions people describe themselves as holding consistently shows that something like twice as many people (or more) describe themselves as Unitarian Univeralist than that actually are actually members of U/U congregations. Last election cycle, it was pointed out that Senator McCain calls himself Baptist and attends a Baptist church each Sunday but in fact has never joined the Baptist church and remains a baptized Episcopalian. So what is McCain? Baptist? or Episcopalian? In a way even he himself doesn't know for sure. (No disrespect. I was just kidding there. But, what I meant in all seriousness is that by McCain's self-description he's of one denomination but by the official criteria of the two denominations in question, he is the other. Phew, confusing. )--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 19:57, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
- Where did he go two days ago on Easter Sunday? (He told David Brody of CBN that he attends church "As much as I can. Always on Christmas. Always on Easter." link.)--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 21:00, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
- USA Today is trying to track this info down.
--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 21:11, 26 April 2011 (UTC)In that interview with David Brody, the only church he named was First Presbyterian Church of Jamaica.
[... ...]
[...H]is most frequently mentioned church is the famed Marble Collegiate Church -- scene not only of his wedding to Ivana in 1977 but also the place where Trump wed Marla[...]in 1993.
[... ...]
By the time of his 2005[...]wedding[...]the church of choice, near his Palm Beach manse, was Episcopal Church of Bethesda-by-the-Sea.
[... ...]
[...B]uzz us[...]if you shared a pew with The Donald on Easter -- or any Sunday since Christmas.---link
Financial Problems plagiarism
Everything from Chase Bank to the end of the third paragraph of the Financial Problems paragraph is lifted verbatim from the referenced NYTimes article. Seems like it should be reworded or quoted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Uolmir (talk • contribs) 14:01, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
Donald Trump Makes A Comment Questioning Whether Obama Was Qualified For Ivy League Schools. What A Joke
Trump: Obama wasn't qualified for Ivy League By BETH FOUHY Associated Press NEW YORK (AP) — Real estate mogul Donald Trump suggested in an interview Monday that President Barack Obama had been a poor student who did not deserve to be admitted to the Ivy League universities he attended. Trump, who is mulling a bid for the Republican presidential nomination, offered no proof for his claim but said he would continue to press the matter as he has the legitimacy of the president's birth certificate.
"I heard he was a terrible student, terrible. How does a bad student go to Columbia and then to Harvard?" Trump said in an interview with The Associated Press. "I'm thinking about it, I'm certainly looking into it. Let him show his records."
Obama graduated from Columbia University in New York in 1983 with a degree in political science after transferring from Occidental College in California. He went on to Harvard Law School, where he graduated magna cum laude 1991 and was the first black president of the Harvard Law Review.
Obama's 2008 campaign did not release his college transcripts, and in his best-selling memoir, "Dreams From My Father," Obama indicated he hadn't always been an academic star. Trump told the AP that Obama's refusal to release his college grades were part of a pattern of concealing information about himself.
"I have friends who have smart sons with great marks, great boards, great everything and they can't get into Harvard," Trump said. "We don't know a thing about this guy. There are a lot of questions that are unanswered about our president."
Katie Hogan, a spokeswoman for Obama's re-election campaign, declined to comment.
My Opinions are stated below, I don't care if you disagree, Because that's the best thing about the USA freedom to speak your mind and that's what I've done in this Statement: I recently read this article and it has made me so angry I wish i had the power to call him myself and yell and scream about his total stupidity. I ask this question of Donald Trump, How can you question whether he had good grades when we just got rid of a president who was so stupid he choked on a pretzel and had a vice president who got away with shooting his friend in the face? As well as the fact that he was a REPUBLICAN like himself now who is the retard Mr. Trump. You go around making accusations and remarks about stupid issues that really don't matter but who are you to think that we would vote you into power? The only way you will win is if California is the only vote that will count, but I think everyone has learned from that mistake. Name recognition only works so long. Just because you have money and hotels what makes you so qualified to be the president because you can put on a suit and dress real fancy for TV, they put monkeys in suits all the time and in my opinion the monkey could run the country better than the republican party has ever done. Your biggest issues are whether a person has a birth certificate or not and why should anyone have to prove themselves to YOU? Glory Hound! Mud slinging is no way to win a campaign for presidency as far as I am concerned all I want to know is what is going to be done for us the working class people whose hands you step on and break to do the real work behind your business, well you and the republicans get rich we break our backs to provide for our families, and what's more important to you whether someone who is already president had good enough marks and who has a birth certificate that says they were born here. Where were you when Bush made a fool out of himself with all his idiotic statements and when the levees broke where were you, I've read your profile it says nothing about you helping with disaster relief. (Jerrys1kitten (talk) 10:21, 27 April 2011 (UTC)).
- Jerrys1kitten, Scott Adams explains what's going on, for the uninitiated, here.--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 16:45, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
Citations needed
Independent verification is needed that Mr. Trump has a degree from U. of Pennsylvania. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.216.125.82 (talk) 17:09, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
- Ironically, Trump has an economics Bachelor of Science degree with concentration in finance from Penn; Obama, a Harvard Law JD. (Which means Obama is entitled to wear a gown in all black; Trump, one with gold velvet: maybe its lining, I dunno.)--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 21:08, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
Cartoon Spamming
Politicians and people in the public eye in general are often the subject of political cartoons. However, that is no reason to source a ton of these cartoons in this article in the way that they were. Not only is this undue weight, and potentially a BLP violation in order to denegrate the article subject, I have never seen this done on any other political figure. Furthermore, it is borderline OR in that there are no actual articles making the argument, only WP editorializing that he is been criticized and then linking the cartoons to which WP editors feel meet the section. Arzel (talk) 03:05, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
- What Arzel removed was
It's probably over the line into spam but I will point out that it is possible for political parody to be notable. For example, another wp:WELLKNOWN media personality, Sarah Palin (who also is a former governor) has this article subsection on WP: Public image of Sarah Palin#Parodies.--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 07:33, 28 April 2011 (UTC)"Political cartoonists have made reference to the issue.[3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12]"
- Political Parody is one thing, but this is simply linking all the cartoons that a few editors were able to find. I don't see this being done for other political figures, and there is no RS that are talking about how this particular cartooning is unique or unusuall. As such the inclusion in the way it was done is OR. There is no evidence that any one particular cartoon is notable in any way. And the solution that TVOZ presented is not acceptable as it only masks the problem. BLP, Undue Weight, and Spamming are still evident. For those that would like to include, find an RS that talks about the cartoons specifically or leave it out. Arzel (talk) 13:20, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
- Political cartoonists have made reference to the issue.[1]
- which certainly reduces its footprint on the article text. Please note that I am not the originator of the addition of the cartoons, just the editor who tried to make it less unwieldy. I do think, however, that satire and parody of Trump is a reasonable thing to be covered, either here in his bio or in an offshoot article if there is too much for here, as Hodgson-Burnett points out is done for Sarah Palin. Yes, if RS third party sources discussing the phenomenon can be found that would be best, but removing all of this may be going too far in the other direction of sanitizing the bio, which of course we don't want to do. I don't think BLP comes into play if we correctly identify this material as published satire, nor do I see how WP:UNDUE is at all relevant, unless your point is that we aren't including pro-Trump cartoons - by all means, replace some of these with those if they exist. As for WP:SPAM, I'm not seeing how this is a violation of that, but would be interested in knowing why that's being alleged. Again - these cartoons were not my research or addition, and I don't think that we necessarily need to include all of them, but I also think completely removing them may not be a neutral edit. Tvoz/talk 20:28, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
- Changing the format does not address the other primary problems. Inclusion in that new format indicates that there is a source that points to this being specifically notable. It would be all but impossible to include just one or another and make the same statement since you would not be specifically breaching OR issues. Now if there is a RS that talks about how Trump has been the subject of political cartoons related to this issue, then you could make the statement and use that RS. Otherwise what is to stop anyone from sourcing all the political cartoons they find onto the articles of political figures? This is a slipery slope to go down, and can be easily addressed by existing policies to not include political cartoons, unless the cartoon itself has been the subject of discussion in RS's Arzel (talk) 23:20, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
Fsir enough - I said above that I agree that third party RS would be best - so how about this one just quickly located. Likely there are others. (By the way, I would be interested in your reply to my comments about BLP, UNDUE and SPAM, as I would like to know why you think they apply.) Tvoz/talk 23:40, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
- BLP - Appears to denegrate the subject of the article. UNDUE - No context for their insertion. No sign of their individual notability. SPAM - overlinking of sources to make a point. Your new source is no better than this one regarding Obama. Political cartoons are a dime a dozen that don't add anything meaningful to the article other than to make a political point or denegrate the subject with abject criticism. Occasionally a specific cartoon will develop it's own story and become especially notable. Linking to a bunch of cartoons in this manner is nothing more than trying to subtley present a specific point of view. Picking any specific cartoon requires personal POV since their is no outside commentary or discussion which puts that cartoon into historical notability. The most appropriate place for such group linking would be WP:EL and per EL I don't think such a link would be viewed positively on BLP articles. Ask yourself if you think such information should be included on articles like Obama. There are ton's of cartoons that make fun of Obama should we have similar links for all people? I say no, and I think a similar link on Obama would be met with substantial resistance. Arzel (talk) 02:43, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
- I took your point about the group linking and am suggesting replacing it for now with the single source MSNBC piece. The source you pointed to about Obama is just a group of cartoons - the Trump source that I posted here without doing much of a search has at least a paragraph identifying Trump as the target of cartoonists. And perhaps better 3rd party sources will be found.
- I disagree with your interpretation of WP:BLP - satire is satire, well understood as exaggeration to make a point, not unsourced material known to be false which is what our BLP policies are about. And pointing to the fact that Trump is a target of cartoonists is no different, say, than having an article Barack the Magic Negro - I don't like it, but there it is. I believe you are completely misinterpreting WP:SPAM, which talks about "three types of wikispam. These are advertisements masquerading as articles, external link spamming and adding references with the aim of promoting the author or the work being referenced". This link is in no way an advertisement of anything, it appears only once, and promotes nothing. So maybe you have some other policy in mind, but it's not WP:SPAM. And that's also not what WP:UNDUE means: it is not about notability, it is specifically about giving a minority view more weight in an article than is justified by its significance to the subject. This is one line in an article, now with one source, and it is not a minority view.
- So if you want to object to the newly cast single sentence with one source that identifies Trump as a target of cartoonists, you're free to do so, but please don;t muddy the waters with references to policies that really don't apply. However, as I've said a few times, this was not my addition to the article, so I don't care that much about it`which you seem to. I think you are wrong - it is just as reasonable to mention Trump's appeal to cartoonists as it is to say so about Richard Nixon, and the material about Sarah Palin that Hodgson-Burnett cited above - and this article should include it - his appearance, style and image are well-known to be satirized, particularly so in regards to the birther issue - and perhaps someone will find more sourcing to make the point (I'll post it if I come across any). So although I don't disagree about the string of cartoons not being the best form - as I said above - I disagree very much with your conclusion, especially in light of the third-party source provided. Tvoz/talk 06:42, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
- Information does not have to be false to violate BLP, thus I disagree with your interpretation. Changing the citation Spam into one link, doesn't change that it is citation spam. A rose by any other name is still a rose. Undue and Notability are interlinked. I do not understand the continued belief by many editors that they are unrelated, when simple logic dictates that they must be related for either to make any sense. Presentation of marginal non-notable inforamtion is clearly a violation of undue weight. By doing so you are giving prominance to minor issue outside of it's own notability. By essence you are promoting a personal point of view by saying that this particular piece of information is more important that external RS's would dictate. There is no evidence than any one of these specific cartoons is notable by itself. Grouping them together doesn't change that, but it does present a violation of undue weight by giving the perception that within RS's these cartoons have become notable in their own right. This is simply not the case. You need to find a RS that specifically talks about Trump in relation to political cartoons. Your example of BTMN is not even close to the same issue, and you can thank the Dems for that racist travistry. You said his appearance, style and image are well-known to be satirized, particularly so in regards to the birther issue. If this is the case than simply find a RS that makes this statement and use that RS for this particular statement. If it is true than it won't be hard to find. If it is not true than the statement would be undue weight and OR (my original problems). In either case you don't need to present the cartoons themselves since you have just stated that the issue is him being satirized. Arzel (talk) 13:15, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
Please add the discussions of calls for Trump's firing
After trump's comments on 27 Apr, people in the media and politics have called for NBC to fire him. Most notably, Lawrence O'Donnell of sister-company MSNBC, [13] and US Rep Weiner [14]. --Tangledorange (talk) 08:48, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
WOULD SOMEBODY PLEASE EDIT HIS WIKI PROFILE TO INCLUDE HIS LATEST PROFESSIONAL ACCOMPLISHMENTS??CARNIVAL BARKING... :-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.15.205.113 (talk) 15:50, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
- We have to keep in mind that WP is an encyclopedia not a news paper. If and when, Trump is fired it may be appropriate to make a minor, one sentence mention of this. But at present it is not appropriate for the article at this time in my opinion.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 17:59, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
Clarity between 'birther' criticism and 'racist' criticism
At the Apr 27 conference, Trump made a whole new set of statements-- and it is these statements that have been reported on by some reliable sources as explicitly racist. This is a subtle distinction, be we need to be careful not to automatically conflate the two streams of criticism, as one does not necessarily imply the other to all people.
So, for example, Schieffer's reporting was most directly in reference to the "bad student"/Afffirmative Action statements. I've added more context of the Schieffer quote to make to it clear what Schiefer was replying to. --Tangledorange (talk) 02:16, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
- This seems fine and sorry I removed part of it earlier today. Thank you for redoing it. I just used the source, which is excellent, twice. -SusanLesch (talk) 03:28, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
- No prob. :) I remember the source I added had an overly opinionated headline and was from a partisan new source, and I chided myself at the time for not making the effort to find the CBS original. This is why I love Wikipedia. --Tangledorange (talk) 07:09, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
- This seems fine and sorry I removed part of it earlier today. Thank you for redoing it. I just used the source, which is excellent, twice. -SusanLesch (talk) 03:28, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
WP:RECENTISM
This article is starting to suffer from acute WP:RECENTISM. Trump has been in the public eye for many years, but the article is starting to get dominated by the ins-and-outside of his current political campaign and comments about Obama's birth. Please try to keep the article encyclopediac, that is, historical. Ashmoo (talk) 12:06, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
- Always something to watch out for-- but the events that are unfolding now are undoubtedly the most notable of Trump's life. He was polling as the frontrunner for the GOP nomination. The publicity generated by Trump led to a sitting president releasing a birth certificate for the first time ever. Now, whole swaths of the media are calling Trump-- the supposed GOP frontrunner-- a racist, and not mincing words about it. Sometimes "Most Recent Events" and "Most Notable Events" are the same events. --Tangledorange (talk) 14:15, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
- I think you are both correct. The recent events are very notable but depending on the outcome ie. if he becomes an official candidate etc. In the meantime his activities border on a publicity campaign and he has a 30 year history of notability as a real estate mogul and a 7 yr history as a TV show host. So do need to be very careful re: WP:RECENT. With that said, its always better to discuss specifics, so if anyone has a particular concern, let's talk and work it out together. :-) -- — Keithbob • Talk • 15:27, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
Vandalism in the Cat Template below?
There are some categories below about wrestling and Billionaires with TV shows etc. Which may need to be removed.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 16:19, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
- ^ For example:
- Keefe, Mike (April 13, 2011). "Donald "One-Note" Trumpet". Denver Post. Retrieved April 15, 2011.
- Koterba, Jeff (April 14, 2011). "Trump Birther". Omaha World-Herald. Retrieved April 15, 2011.
- Margulies, Jimmy (April 11, 2011). "'Birther' rhetoric". The Record (Hackensack, New Jersey). Retrieved April 15, 2011.
- Zyglis, Adam (April 13, 2011). "Celebrity Apprentice". Buffalo News. Retrieved April 15, 2011.
- Wolverton, Monte (April 4, 2011). "What's under the Donald's hair?". caglecartoons.com. Retrieved April 15, 2011.
- Beeler, Nate (April 14, 2011). "Hair today, gone tomorrow". Washington Examiner. Retrieved April 15, 2011.
- Artley, Steve (March 30, 2011). "Trump Card". Artleytoons. Retrieved April 15, 2011.
- Granlund, Dave (April 11, 2011). "Trump on Obama Birth". Gate House News Service. Retrieved April 15, 2011.
- Cagle, Daryl (April 9, 2011). "Donald Trump Birther". The Cagle Post, MSNBC.com. Retrieved April 15, 2011.
- Plante, Bruce (March 31, 2011). "OK State Senator creates jobs". Tulsa World. Retrieved April 15, 2011.