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:::See [[WP:OR]]. Also note that the current statistics in the lead come from a CDC pamphlet which in turn references a study which was conducted by... a telephone survey. [[User:Mystylplx|Mystylplx]] ([[User talk:Mystylplx|talk]]) 23:29, 17 October 2011 (UTC) |
:::See [[WP:OR]]. Also note that the current statistics in the lead come from a CDC pamphlet which in turn references a study which was conducted by... a telephone survey. [[User:Mystylplx|Mystylplx]] ([[User talk:Mystylplx|talk]]) 23:29, 17 October 2011 (UTC) |
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::::Dobash et al. have covered this in their debunking of Fiebert, which is not original research. Fiebert is not a reliable source.--[[User:Expsychobabbler|Expsychobabbler]] ([[User talk:Expsychobabbler|talk]]) 09:06, 18 October 2011 (UTC) |
::::Dobash et al. have covered this in their debunking of Fiebert, which is not original research. Fiebert is not a reliable source.--[[User:Expsychobabbler|Expsychobabbler]] ([[User talk:Expsychobabbler|talk]]) 09:06, 18 October 2011 (UTC) |
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:::::Dobash is not a reliable source. He merely dismisses data that he doesn't like. He presents no evidence. He is notable enough that his criticisms should be mentioned, but certainly not notable enough to simply dismiss the great bulk of the research on this question. [[User:Mystylplx|Mystylplx]] ([[User talk:Mystylplx|talk]]) 15:47, 18 October 2011 (UTC) |
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Gender Aspects Section
When reading this section, I found it to bring the neutrality of this article into disrepute. Domestic abuse is domestic abuse, regardless of who commits it, or is victimized by it. This section is badly flawed in that it perpetuates a gender bias towards this issue...that is, that women are always the victims. This is simply not true. Could whoever contributed to this section please explain why there is not an adequate weight given towards men being abused in heterosexual relationships? I would advocate for this section of this article to be deleted. Otherwise, should we as editors take a step towards improving this article's neutrality. Thank you.
- The gender imbalance of domestic violence is prominently discussed by reliable sources on the topic, including both popular and academic sources. Thus, per WP:WEIGHT, it is important that this article mentions the issue and presents what the sources have to say on the topic. If you read through the entire section, you'll find that violence against both men and women is discussed, although the material is not well organized at present. Kaldari (talk) 16:40, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
- If this is the case, then it should be reorganized to reflect this fact. Meatsgains (talk) 21:44, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
Factor: education-difference between spouses
I read an abstract once of a study saying women with higher education married to men with lower education than them had higher risk of being abused. Does anyone happen to have the citation of this? (I know the reverse seems to be the case in Bangladesh[1], so presumably there's some confounding factor here.)
Ah, now I found it. Martin (2007)[2] , cites Johnson (2003)[3] as saying that "women with higher education were at greater risk of being physically and sexually assaulted by their partners", although other studies have also shown that unemployed women are at higher risk of marital rape, not sure how to interpret all this. (Martin 2007 seems to be a very good review.)
References
- ^ http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/demography/v040/40.2koenig.html
- ^ Elaine K. Martin, Casey T. Taft, Patricia A. Resick, A review of marital rape, Aggression and Violent Behavior, Volume 12, Issue 3, May-June 2007, Pages 329-347, ISSN 1359-1789, DOI: 10.1016/j.avb.2006.10.003. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/B6VH7-4MM95WJ-1/2/c7a5b2cdc68b6cb4cc0ff35af32637d0
- ^ Holly Johnson. (2003). The cessation of assaults on wives*. Journal of Comparative Family Studies: Violence Against Women in the Family, 34(1), 75-91. Retrieved February 24, 2009, from Academic Research Library database. (Document ID: 344327771). http://proquest.umi.com/pqdlink?did=344327771&Fmt=7&clientId=32064&RQT=309&VName=PQD
Definition
"Amartya Sen calculated that more than 100 million females and follow up studies showed that between 60 million and 107 million women are missing worldwide.[18]"
Althought this might be true, this fact seems to be trowed there for no reason.
- What does this have to do with domestic violence? This seems more like a fact for a kidnapping/abduction page.Meatsgains (talk) 21:45, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
Johnson's typology
There are a number of important errors in the description of Johnson's typology. I'll comment and then paste the current text below my comments.
(1) Common couple violence: Johnson has not used the term "common couple violence" since at least 2000 (Johnson and Ferraro, 2000). He and others now refer to this type as "situational couple violence." Thus, the description of CCV should be labelled SCV with a note that in early papers he used the term CCV. SCV often involves more than one incident. Thus, this description should refer to "arguments where one or both" rather than "a single argument." The sentence on intimate terrorism should be moved to the next paragraph. You probably should move the final paragraph about situational couple violence up into this paragraph. It is not "another type."
(2) Intimate terrorism: It might worth adding a note here that in early papers Johnson referred to this as "patriarchal terrorism," and that recently he and others have suggested "coercive controlling violence" as a less inflammatory term for use in courtroom settings (Kelly and Johnson, 2008). Also, intimate terrorism is not more common than situational couple violence. On the contrary, it is much less common. The writer here might be misunderstanding "frequency," which refers to number of incidents in a single couple's experience. So, I would edit that sentence to fix that, and start the sentence with "On average, intimate terrorism involves more violent incidents per couple, ...." The "on average" is important because this is merely a correlation, not a definition, and some intimate terrorism can involve few incidents, little escalation, and less severe violence. Then I would add, "By definition, intimate terrorism involves a general pattern of coercive behavior, often including emotional and psychological abuse."
(3) Violent resistance: because this is not always self-defense, I would change this a bit. Perhaps just cut the reference to self-defense from the original sentence, and add a sentence such as "Sometimes violent resistance meets the legal definition of self-defense, sometimes it is simply an immediate reaction to violence, sometimes it involves carefully planned acts of retribution." ≈≈≈≈Michael P. Johnson
ORIGINAL TEXT
Distinctions are not based on single incidents, but rather on patterns across numerous incidents and motives of the perpetrator. Types of violence identified by Johnson:[23][24][25][26]
- Common couple violence (CCV) is not connected to general control behavior, but arises in a single argument where one or both partners physically lash out at the other. Intimate terrorism is one element in a general pattern of control by one partner over the other. Intimate terrorism is more common than common couple violence, more likely to escalate over time, not as likely to be mutual, and more likely to involve serious injury.[23][25][27]
- Intimate terrorism (IT) may also involve emotional and psychological abuse.[28][29][30]
- Violent resistance (VR), sometimes thought of as "self-defense", is violence perpetrated by victims against their abusive partners.[25][31][32][33][34]
- Mutual violent control (MVC) is rare type of intimate partner violence occurs when both partners act in a violent manner, battling for control.[23][35]
Another type is situational couple violence, which arises out of conflicts that escalate to arguments and then to violence. It is not connected to a general pattern of control. Although it occurs less frequently in relationships and is less serious than intimate terrorism, in some cases it can be frequent and/or quite serious, even life-threatening. This is probably the most common type of intimate partner violence and dominates general surveys, student samples, and even marriage counseling samples.
Economic abuse section
I edited the economic abuse section. I could not locate the (only) citation that was there after searching for a while. Instead, I rewrote this section according to the relevant references I found. Esery (talk) 13:57, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
Anger Management
In the article, under Counseling for Offenders, it says: "Anger management is recommended as a part of an offender treatment curriculum". It is my understanding that many Batterer Intervention Programs no longer see Anger Management as an effective tool, for the the simple reason that batterers already have their anger well managed. When they are in private and their partner does anything they don't like, they can instantly turn it ON as a tool to control their partner. When they are in public and someone else does something they don't like, perhaps a police officer giving them a speeding ticket or a supervisor correcting them, they can turn their anger OFF. To compare the two, see this page from Oregon: [1] or this one from Massachusetts: [2] .
Legal Ramifications
I am not an attorney but am the alleged "victim" in a domestic violence incident and experienced the legal ramifications first hand. There really needs to be a discussion section on this part. There are extremely serious legal ramifications for both the accused and the alleged victim.
A few important issues within legal ramifications:
1) Once you call the police, there is no way to "un-do" the process and the alleged abuser will probably be charged with more than he or she really did.
a) The police will make an arrest and manipulate the testimony to justify the most severe charges possible, often felony charges in the case of domestic violence. If convicted of felony charges the alleged abuser would have to spend a minimum of 1 year in a state prison, but possibly much longer.
b) The alleged victim does not have the right to decide not to press charges. Only the DA's office can decide whether or not to press charges.
c) The DA's job is to get the strongest conviction possible for every arrest. The DA does not care about misleading police reports, innocence of the accused, overcharging the accused, or the alleged victim's desires for leniency. The DA will press for the maximum possible punishment.
2) The victim's life will be turned upside down by calling the police.
a) The courts will file a 3 year restraining order against the alleged abuser on the alleged victim's "behalf", even without the consent of the alleged victim, which will make it a crime for the alleged abuser to talk with, relay any messages through 3rd parties, or come within 300 feet of the alleged victim. This includes important financial matters.
b) In the state of California, the 3 year restraining order can only be modified after the alleged victim has taken 30 hours of domestic violence awareness classes over a 10 week period. The alleged abuser and alleged victim must remain completely apart for a minimum of 3 months even if they want to reconcile, even if there was no prior history of abuse, and even if the alleged victim does not want the protective order.
c) The alleged victim will need her or his own attorney which can cost over $10,000.
d) The alleged victim will be forced to testify against her or his spouse. While normally you don't have to testify against your spouse in the US, there is an exception in domestic violence cases. If the alleged victim refuses to testify or lies under oath to protect her or his spouse, the alleged victim can face substantial penalties, jail time, and even criminal charges.
3) The legal system has no respect for the alleged victim. Many studies on domestic violence state that victims are weak "co-dependent" people with no self esteem or confidence. The legal system takes the position that alleged victims are like children who are incapable of knowing what is best for her or his self. The victim's option is considered only at the very end of the process, after a guilty verdict has been made, when considering sentencing.
Domestic violence is a serious issue. Victims of domestic violence should educate themselves about domestic violence and end the pattern of abuse, either by leaving the abuser or getting the abuser to seek counseling and stop using drugs and/or alcohol.
Involving the legal system, however, should be a last resort and only in response to serious threats from the abuser. A decision to call the police should not be taken lightly, as it is the equivalent of using a deadly weapon in self defense.
A DV defense attorney would be best suited to write a legal ramifications section on this article, but have included what I learned from my own experience as an alleged victim in the discussion area to point out an important piece missing from the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xanderale15 (talk • contribs) 18:53, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
Reworking lead
I am reworking some of the lead. I have replaced the laughable citation to the activist brochure with information from the meta analysis by Archer (2000), probably the most authoritative work ever done, which has been cited more than one thousand times, also tacking on two published comments of the paper that endorse the work. I also cited a bibliography by Martin which is less methodical, authoritative or neutral than Archer but is very informative, and with 59 citations itself is still better than the brochure.
The prevalence of aggression which is part of a system of control will be important to note however I have yet to find a good source. I found one study that put it at 11% of domestic violence in representative samples but it was less than authoritative so any help will be appreciated. extransit (talk) 05:24, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
I am also going to remove the trite talking point about 'only 1% of DV being reported to police'. Given that things like slapping and pushing count as DV in most surveys the fact that no one is bothering to report it is both unsurprising and non-notable. I will be amenable to a note about of the percent of non common couples violence that goes unreported to police, if we can find one. extransit (talk)
- Archer is not a good source for the lead. His study is primarily on dating couples in the United States. Domestic violence is violence between people who share a household. Most people who are dating do not actually live together. Kaldari (talk) 05:48, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- Our very own definition reads "abusive behaviors by one or both partners in an intimate relationship such as marriage, dating, family, friends or cohabitation".... We include friends... and yet now you want to disqualify my source because it does not only cover marriages? Also, his study did not only contain dating couples as you assert. It is not even a study. It is a meta analysis of 82 separate studies of which 33 were exclusively married or cohabiting subjects. extransit (talk) 05:52, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- I didn't say that his study was limited to dating couples. Yes, it includes married couples, but the data is skewed towards:
- Young people
- People who do not cohabitate
- People in the United States
- Archer acknowledges this in his paper. There are several studies that are broader in their sampling and give very different statistics. Regardless, I think specific statistics should be saved for the article body as they are virtually all disputed in some way or another. Regarding the definition of domestic violence, I think our definition is a bit too broad. Clearly violence between friends is not normally considered "domestic violence". I also think we should clarify that domestic violence and IPV are not the same thing (for example domestic violence includes violence against children). Kaldari (talk) 06:08, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- I will address your concerns in order,
- If you look at table 8 in the study, the variable mean age is indeed associated with rates of agression, but equally for males and females (0.1 and 0.1) so the statement I used it to cite is still accurate.
- I would hardly say that having a large number of non-married is skewing the results, the majority of the US in not married. Considering table 8 again, the conclusion stands.
- I suppose you are right in that it is skewed to the US, so shall we change it to "in the us.."? That is what we had before.
- I agree that including "friends" in the definition is wack, I don't know why that is there, I will remove it. And, I also agree that numbers in the lead are not fantastic. I originally was just going to say majority, but that is kind of unclear as 'majority' can be 51-100%. Do you have better verbiage where we could drop the stats but still give a general idea? extransit (talk) 06:28, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- How about 'approximately two thirds'? That is a little less numberwang while still giving a good feel for the issue. extransit (talk) 06:42, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- 'Approximately two thirds' is fine with me. Regarding the study in general, it's worth pointing out that 76 of the 82 studies looked at by Archer (i.e. almost all of them) used the Conflict Tactics Scale, which has been criticized by other authors for a variety of reasons (it is subject to reporting bias, doesn't include sexual assault, shows poor correlation between partners, etc). See "Male Victims of Domestic Violence: A Substantive and Methodological Research Review" for a fuller discussion of this issue. I really don't mind discussing Archer in the article, as it is an important study, but I think it should be moved out of the lead, and probably presented alongside the studies that have criticized its methodology. Kaldari (talk) 06:57, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- The long history of this page shows that people want some information on prevalence in the lead, and a meta-analysis of many studies is obviously the best source for such information. Yes, Archer has recived some criticism, but obviously much of it must be idealogically motivated and he has responded adequately, see "Sex Differences in Physical Aggression to Partners: A Reply to Frieze (2000), O'Leary (2000), and White, Smith, Koss, and Figueredo (2000)". I mean, what do you expect from Kimmel who has spent his life campaigning against 'the patriarchy'. Do you really think there is any research that could convince him? We need some info on prevalnce for the lead, do you have a better source? A better source would to be another review, not some book published by a DV victims advocate. Note that in the Kimmel article you linked me, he even admits that in the last 20 year 16 reviews have found results similar to Archer's. extransit (talk) 07:21, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- Well, there's a lot more criticism than just Kimmel. "The Myth of Sexual Symmetry in Marital Violence" (1992) is probably the most heavily cited, although it's criticizing CTS-based studies in general rather than Archer's meta-analysis specifically. There are two long-standing opposing camps on this issue, each hinging on whether the CTS is a valid methodology for measuring domestic violence or not. To present only one side in the lead is not neutral. As there is so little agreement on rates of prevalence (even within the few countries that have data), I really don't think we can give any definitive statistics in the lead. Kaldari (talk) 07:44, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- You don't think we can give any definative statistics in the lead, yet you have been editing this article for the last few months with statistics in the lead sourced to a much inferior citation and not bothered to remove them? Aside from the criticisms of the CTS which have been addressed; I did also cite Martin's bibliography of over 300 studies and investigations and have now added a third source, Straus (1999). Its pretty clear that given the broad defenition of DV this article uses what I have written is a fact. extransit (talk) 07:59, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- Well, there's a lot more criticism than just Kimmel. "The Myth of Sexual Symmetry in Marital Violence" (1992) is probably the most heavily cited, although it's criticizing CTS-based studies in general rather than Archer's meta-analysis specifically. There are two long-standing opposing camps on this issue, each hinging on whether the CTS is a valid methodology for measuring domestic violence or not. To present only one side in the lead is not neutral. As there is so little agreement on rates of prevalence (even within the few countries that have data), I really don't think we can give any definitive statistics in the lead. Kaldari (talk) 07:44, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- Also, Kimmel goes on and on about how there are no men in hospitals. That seems to be his primary evidence. And, that is true. Note how I said that if we can find a good source for the prevalence of "intimate terrorism", as it has been ridiculously named, that should be included the lead as well. It is clear that the prevalence of all physical aggression and injuries are approximately the numbers I put up there. extransit (talk) 07:30, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- The long history of this page shows that people want some information on prevalence in the lead, and a meta-analysis of many studies is obviously the best source for such information. Yes, Archer has recived some criticism, but obviously much of it must be idealogically motivated and he has responded adequately, see "Sex Differences in Physical Aggression to Partners: A Reply to Frieze (2000), O'Leary (2000), and White, Smith, Koss, and Figueredo (2000)". I mean, what do you expect from Kimmel who has spent his life campaigning against 'the patriarchy'. Do you really think there is any research that could convince him? We need some info on prevalnce for the lead, do you have a better source? A better source would to be another review, not some book published by a DV victims advocate. Note that in the Kimmel article you linked me, he even admits that in the last 20 year 16 reviews have found results similar to Archer's. extransit (talk) 07:21, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- 'Approximately two thirds' is fine with me. Regarding the study in general, it's worth pointing out that 76 of the 82 studies looked at by Archer (i.e. almost all of them) used the Conflict Tactics Scale, which has been criticized by other authors for a variety of reasons (it is subject to reporting bias, doesn't include sexual assault, shows poor correlation between partners, etc). See "Male Victims of Domestic Violence: A Substantive and Methodological Research Review" for a fuller discussion of this issue. I really don't mind discussing Archer in the article, as it is an important study, but I think it should be moved out of the lead, and probably presented alongside the studies that have criticized its methodology. Kaldari (talk) 06:57, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- I will address your concerns in order,
- I didn't say that his study was limited to dating couples. Yes, it includes married couples, but the data is skewed towards:
- Our very own definition reads "abusive behaviors by one or both partners in an intimate relationship such as marriage, dating, family, friends or cohabitation".... We include friends... and yet now you want to disqualify my source because it does not only cover marriages? Also, his study did not only contain dating couples as you assert. It is not even a study. It is a meta analysis of 82 separate studies of which 33 were exclusively married or cohabiting subjects. extransit (talk) 05:52, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
I have added a citation to "The controversy over domestic violence by women: A methodological, theoretical, and sociology of science analysis" which is also very through and comes to the same conclusions. The table on page 23 is very informative, we should include that information as well. extransit (talk) 07:49, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- That paper is just dismissing studies based on crime reports, which is fine, but there is lots of more recent data that isn't from crime reports that shows huge disparities between prevalence rates. For example the large scale surveys done by the U.S. and U.K. governments showed 3:1 and 2:1 disparity respectively. Since those are the largest single surveys conducted on the issue, and they don't suffer from the CTS problems, and they are relatively recent, I think they are more reliable than the studies you have pointed out so far. Kaldari (talk) 08:02, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- Links? this book says that by 2004 there were allready 165 studies showing equal rates for the genders and agrees with the prevalence rate I put. extransit (talk) 08:09, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- Take a look at http://www.ncjrs.gov/txtfiles1/nij/183781.txt, which was a survey of 16,000 Americans showing 22.1 percent of women and 7.4 percent of men reported being physically assaulted by a current or former spouse, cohabiting partner, boyfriend or girlfriend, or date in their lifetime. That's a pretty huge difference from the CTS studies. Kaldari (talk) 17:09, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- Interestly enough that is data from the NVAWS which the review by Strauss that I cited discusses, because its results were an outlier. He concluded that was because the NVAWS was phrased in terms of crime and so people who did not consider they experinces criminal did not respond. extransit (talk) 18:46, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- Take a look at http://www.ncjrs.gov/txtfiles1/nij/183781.txt, which was a survey of 16,000 Americans showing 22.1 percent of women and 7.4 percent of men reported being physically assaulted by a current or former spouse, cohabiting partner, boyfriend or girlfriend, or date in their lifetime. That's a pretty huge difference from the CTS studies. Kaldari (talk) 17:09, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- Links? this book says that by 2004 there were allready 165 studies showing equal rates for the genders and agrees with the prevalence rate I put. extransit (talk) 08:09, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- ref burn
- ^ Huffine, Chris. "Psy.D." (PDF). Common Differences Between Anger Management and Batterer Intervention Programs. Allies in Change Counseling Center. Retrieved 20 September 2011.
- ^ Violence Prevention and Intervention Services. Batterer Intervention is more than Anger Management. Commonwealth of Massachusetts, Department of Public Health http://www.mass.gov/?pageID=eohhs2terminal&L=6&L0=Home&L1=Consumer&L2=Family+Services&L3=Violence%2C+Abuse+or+Neglect&L4=Offender+Services&L5=Batterer+Intervention&sid=Eeohhs2&b=terminalcontent&f=dph_com_health_violence_c_bi_anger_management_batterer&csid=Eeohhs2. Retrieved 20 September 2011.
{{cite web}}
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(help)
Requesting outside comment because the regulars here have their POV and it seems to run pretty thick.
I sought to replace randomly specific numberwang sourced to a activist brochure (with no named author) with a good quality explination sourced to three items:
- One meta-analytic review of 83 studies that has itself been cited over 1000 times.
- One review of over 100 studies.
- One bibliography of allmost 300 studies.
My version |
Their version |
In the United States 10-35% of the population will be physically aggressive towards a partner at some point in their lives where in heterosexual couplings women are slightly more likely to have ever been physically aggressive towards a partner and commit such acts more frequently than men although they also sustain the majority of injuries, approximately two thirds.[1][2][3] As abuse becomes more severe women become increasingly overrepresented as victims..[1]
|
According to the Centers for Disease Control, domestic violence is a serious, preventable public health problem. Each year in the United States, 4.8 million women suffer intimate partner related physical assaults and rapes and 2.9 million men are victims of physical assault from their partners.[1]
|
But all I am getting seems like "Your studies are wrong! All 300 of them! Trust the activists they know The Truth!". I mean really, getting Kimmel thrown at you like he is neutral authority....
Anyways, the history of this article shows that we want to have some informaton on prevalence in the lead, their prefered version is poorly sourced and contradicted by the better sources I use in my version. extransit (talk) 08:30, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- All of those studies are based on the Conflict Tactics Scale, which is not an accurate measure of domestic violence. Most specifically, it does not include sexual assault, and thus massively under-represents women victims. Since our article rightly includes sexual assault, it is quite misleading if the only statistic we offer in the lead omits it. Use of the CTS for domestic violence statistics has been criticized for 2 decades now (see discussion in article and above), and more recent studies which do not rely on the CTS show very different numbers. In particular, both the Fiebert and Archer papers cited above have been criticized by experts in the field. Since the CTS numbers are considered controversial and dubious, presenting them alone without any context of criticism as our only statistics for the lead is a violation of WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE. Regarding "neutral authorities", I believe the Centers for Disease Control, the United States Department of Justice, and the UK Home Office should all qualify as "neutral". All of them have published numbers which strongly contradict the CTS figures. See the discussion section above for more information. Kaldari (talk) 16:59, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- "All of those studies"... all of them? All three hundred? No, they don't. There are many different methodologies and metrics used. The CTS is the most common metric, true, but that is because it is the most respected. All the criticisms of the CTS archer discusses ad nausem. The fact is that if the CTS had been determined to not be a valid measurment of conflict it would not be so widely used. If Archer's conclusion actually was flawd it would not be cited over one thousand times. extransit (talk) 18:25, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- "The most respected..." Source please.
- Most premises of Freudian psychoanalysis are considered "invalid" today but psychoanalytical approaches persist... On a serious aside: From a statistical perspective CTS is objective, reliable, and also valid. It measures a specific form of domestic violence but unlike large-scale studies it excludes many important aspects of domestic violence such as sexual violence, initiation, motivation, control, violence after separation etc. CTS measures a very narrow definition of violence. "Your" studies deserve a place in the article and they already have their place. What you did is you've basically just copied the studies in the "Gender aspects of abuse" section and proposed them for lead, ignoring the hundreds of criticisms of CTS and large-scale studies that do not find gender symmetry once they control for motivation, sexual violence, stalking etc.
- The Straus study is also cited many times. Of the ten first google scholar results 6 are criticisms of his study, two only mention it in passing, and one is by Archer and the other is by Starus himself. It's not different for Archer. --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 18:43, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- Well, who is doing the criticism is important. If other family researchers were then that might be relevant, but really the only objections are comming from Kimmel and other feminists. Really, what do you expect? They just dump out any criticism they can come up with without regard for if that criticism is reasonable. Again, Archer, like a good sociologist considered his metric in his paper:
It has often been claimed that the reason CTS studies have found as many women as men to be physically aggressive is because women are defending themselves against attack. A number of studies have addressed this issue and found that when asked, more women than men report initiating an attack (Bland & Orn, 1986; DeMaris, 1992; Gryl & Bird, 1989, cited in Straus, 1997) or that the proportions are equivalent in the two sexes (Straus, 1997). Two large-scale studies found that a substantial proportion of both women and men reported using physical aggression when the partner did not (Brush, 1990; Straus & Gelles, 1988b). This evidence does not support the view that the CTS is only measuring women's self-defense.
- extransit (talk) 19:02, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- You've just copied and pasted that quote for the second time... LOL. I haven't mentioned Kimmel what what are you on about? If you believe that the National Institute of Justice and peer-reviewed research do not qualify as reliable sources please take it it to the reliable sources noticeboard. Now if you'll excuse me, I will go work on the encyclopedia. --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 19:18, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- Because it is a good quote. I find it very strange you are directing me to the reliable sources noticeboard when my version relies on an academic study cited over one thousand times and your version rests on a DV awareness brochure probably hacked togther by some communications intern (who knows, it has no by line). extransit (talk) 19:23, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- The NIJ and CDC are both organizations headed by political appointees and as such tend to stay on the politically correct side of anything controversial. It's not that they aren't reliable sources, it's just that they aren't more reliable than actual studies conducted by actual researchers. Mystylplx (talk) 19:40, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- Because it is a good quote. I find it very strange you are directing me to the reliable sources noticeboard when my version relies on an academic study cited over one thousand times and your version rests on a DV awareness brochure probably hacked togther by some communications intern (who knows, it has no by line). extransit (talk) 19:23, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- You've just copied and pasted that quote for the second time... LOL. I haven't mentioned Kimmel what what are you on about? If you believe that the National Institute of Justice and peer-reviewed research do not qualify as reliable sources please take it it to the reliable sources noticeboard. Now if you'll excuse me, I will go work on the encyclopedia. --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 19:18, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- Well, who is doing the criticism is important. If other family researchers were then that might be relevant, but really the only objections are comming from Kimmel and other feminists. Really, what do you expect? They just dump out any criticism they can come up with without regard for if that criticism is reasonable. Again, Archer, like a good sociologist considered his metric in his paper:
- "All of those studies"... all of them? All three hundred? No, they don't. There are many different methodologies and metrics used. The CTS is the most common metric, true, but that is because it is the most respected. All the criticisms of the CTS archer discusses ad nausem. The fact is that if the CTS had been determined to not be a valid measurment of conflict it would not be so widely used. If Archer's conclusion actually was flawd it would not be cited over one thousand times. extransit (talk) 18:25, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- AgreeAssuming you are right that people want this kind of thing in the lead, your version is considerably better. Actual studies and meta-analysis of studies trumps a pamphlet by the CDC. As for the CTS, it is the most widely used instrument for study of family violence. If it has been criticized it might be worth noting the criticisms (and the sources of those criticisms), but that's no excuse to throw out published peer-reviewed studies that use it. Attempting to do that amounts to POV pushing. As an encyclopedia we should present what has been published in reliable sources, not just the ones we agree with. Mystylplx (talk) 18:05, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- Very strong oppose. The National Institute of Justice has examined claims of gender symmetry of domestic violence with the result:
NIJ researchers have found, however, that collecting various types of counts from men and women does not yield an accurate understanding of battering and serious injury occurring from intimate partner violence. National surveys supported by NIJ, CDC, and BJS that examine more serious assaults do not support the conclusion of similar rates of male and female spousal assaults. These surveys are conducted within a safety or crime context and clearly find more partner abuse by men against women. For example, NVAWS found that women are significantly more likely than men to report being victims of intimate partner violence whether it is rape, physical assault, or stalking and whether the timeframe is the person's lifetime or the previous 12 months. NCVS found that about 85 percent of victimizations by intimate partners in 1998 were against women. The studies that find that women abuse men equally or even more than men abuse women are based on data compiled through the Conflict Tactics Scale (CTS), a survey tool developed in the 1970s. CTS may not be appropriate for intimate partner violence research because it does not measure control, coercion, or the motives for conflict tactics; it also leaves out sexual assault and violence by ex-spouses or partners and does not determine who initiated the violence.[1] [I added italics for emphasis]
- Also please see the first ten studies that cite Straus (1990) [2]. If we exclude one study by Straus and one by Archer as well as two studies that mention Straus only in passing (Walker, 2001; Maxwell, 2010), you'll see that the remaining 6 studies are criticisms of the CTS, Straus/Fiebert/Archer or reviews of claims about gender symmetry. Here are some examples.
- ”The most longstanding and acrimonious debate in the family literature involves the issue of gender symmetry of partner violence (Archer, 2000; Dobash & Dobash, 1992; Dobash, Dobash, Wilson, & Daly, 1992; Johnson, 1995; Kurz, 1989, 1993; Straus, 1990a, 1993). Although papers continue to appear regularly that Although papers continue to appear regularly that claim to demonstrate that women are as violent as men in intimate relationships of one kind or another, or in one country or another, a careful assessment of the literature and a look at the few studies that do distinguish among types of violence both indicate that IT [Intimate Terrorism] is almost entirely a male pattern (97% male in Johnson, 2000a). The evidence seems to indicate that VR [Violent Resistance, i.e., self-defense] is primarily perpetrated by women (Browne, Williams, et al., 1999; Cascardi & Vivian, 1995; Dobash & Dobash, 1992; Johnson, 2000a; Ogle, Maier-Katkin, & Bernard, 1995; Saunders 1988).1. Johnson, Michael P.; Ferraro, Kathleen J. (2000). “Research on Domestic Violence in the 1990s: making Distinctions”, Journal of Marriage and the Family 62 (4): 948-963. doi: 10.1111/j.1741-3737.2000.00948.x2. Johnson, Michael P. (2006). “Gender Symmetry and Asymmetry in Domestic Violence” Violence against Women 12 (1): 1003-1018. doi: 10.1177/10778012062933283. Johnson, Michael P.; Leone, Janel M. (2005). “The Differential Effects of Intmate Terrorism and Situational Couple Violence. Findings from the National Violence Against Women Survey”. Journal of Family Issues 26 (3): 322-349. doi: 10.1177/0192513X04270345
- Saunders notes that CTS did not include sexual coercion items until 1996 and that CTS excludes violence that occurs among separated and divorced couples. He also writes: ”Many studies, including the majority of studies in the Fiebert (1997, 1998) bibliographies, simply count the rates of violence by men and women. They fail to include three important variables: the motives of each partner, the rates of initiation of violence by each partner in the relationship and in particular episodes, and the physical and psychological consequences of the violence to each partner (Dobash, Dobash, Wilson, & Daly, 1992). Murray Straus, a researcher frequently cited by those claiming that women’s violence is a major social problem, makes the same point: “The number of assaults by itself . . . ignores the contexts, meanings, and consequences of these assaults” (Straus, 1997, p. 216). Among the studies that analyze motive, initiation, and consequence, summarized below, women are generally shown to be more victimized than men. For example, reviews by Straus (1993, 1995, 1997) describe many qualifications of prior research that preclude firm conclusions about the extent of men’s victimization. Straus (1995) also concludes that women are the primary victims of partner abuse because they are “physically injured to the point of needing medical attention seven times as often as husbands, they suffer psychological injury at much higher rates, and they are locked into violent marriages because of the economic inequalities of American society” (p. 33). He concludes one review by stating that the “first priority in services for victims and in prevention and control must continue to be directed toward assaults by men” (Straus, 1997, p. 219).”Saunders, Daniel G. (2002). “Are physical Assaults by Wives and Girlfriends a Major Societal Problem? A Review of the Literature” Violence Against Women 8 (12): 1424-1448. doi: 10.1177/107780102237964
- ”The author concludes that research clearly shows that women who assault their heterosexual partners are distinct from men who engage in battering behaviors, since most of the women are victims of ongoing abuse from their male partners. Furthermore, the research suggests that men's and women's violence toward their heterosexual partners is historically, culturally, motivationally, and situationally dissimilar. The consequences of these actions differ as well. Women tend to recognize such behavior as a violation of their socially prescribed gender role and readily confess to their transgression of the norm for their behavior; men, on the other hand, tend to minimize their violence against female partners and/or blame the victim, which reflects a greater sense of entitlement to such behavior compared with women. Although both genders use violence to achieve control, women attempt to secure short-term command over immediate situations; whereas, men tend to establish comprehensive authority over a much longer period. The majority of research findings indicate that women who use violence are themselves battered by male partners and use physical aggression to escape or stop this abuse. Studies indicate, however, that generally women are unsuccessful in achieving their objectives through violence.”Dasgupta, Shamita Das. (2002). “A Framework for Understanding Women's Use of Nonlethal Violence in Intimate Heterosexual Relationships”. Violence Against Women 8 (11): 1564-1389.
- CTS does not measure who initiated violence and who reacts in self-defense; it excluded sexual coercion items until 1996; it leaves out violence that occurs among separated couples; it does not control for motivation etc. There are hundreds of studies that criticize CTS or one of the researchers. The intro as proposed by extransit would have to include such criticisms to meet WP:NPOV. --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 18:08, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- Archer addressed those concerns in his analysis:
It has often been claimed that the reason CTS studies have found as many women as men to be physically aggressive is because women are defending themselves against attack. A number of studies have addressed this issue and found that when asked, more women than men report initiating an attack (Bland & Orn, 1986; DeMaris, 1992; Gryl & Bird, 1989, cited in Straus, 1997) or that the proportions are equivalent in the two sexes (Straus, 1997). Two large-scale studies found that a substantial proportion of both women and men reported using physical aggression when the partner did not (Brush, 1990; Straus & Gelles, 1988b). This evidence does not support the view that the CTS is only measuring women's self-defense.
- The fact is that the CTS is considered a valid metric, if it wasn't it would not have been used by over 200 researchers. As for your last three sources, they only back up my version as they all admit that women perform equal levels of violence but then argue that violence by men is more serious. Something that my version acknowledges! Also, the review by Strauss covers the NVAWS data and why it is an outlier. extransit (talk) 18:22, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- For the third time, yes, the CTS is valid as in Validity (statistics) for a certain form of domestic violence. Unlike large-scale studies that don't rely on CTS it excludes many important aspects of domestic violence, like motivation, control, sexual violence...
- Those are just some of the ten first google scholar results that pop up if you search the studies that cited Straus (1990). Researchers cite Straus but do so to criticize him so it doesn't really matter how many people cite his study. The studies all found "Intimate Terrorism" is almost exclusively perpetrated by men while "Violent Resistance" (self-defense) is almost exclusively perpetrated by women. And even "situation violence" is not gender symmetrical: 56% men and 44% women.
- Look, I'm not quite sure what you're trying to achieve. The Archer, Fiebert, and Straus studies are covered extensively and disproportionately in the "Gender aspects of abuse" section. A lead that is based entirely on studies that don't measure motivation, control, sexual violence etc. while ignoring criticisms of those studies and research that directly contradicts claims of gender symmetry will not improve the article. --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 19:09, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- Um, I was trying to replace a ridiculously poor citation in the lead and thought, you know, maybe, the largest, most methodical and most cited review of the literature, Archer (2000), would be a good source. As for your citations about "intimate terrorism", this articles is about "domestic violence" not intimate terrorism. extransit (talk) 19:16, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- Not understanding your objection, Sonicyouth86, extransits versions states that women receive the majority of injuries and are increasingly over-represented as abuse becomes more severe. Mystylplx (talk) 19:32, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- Archer addressed those concerns in his analysis:
- @Sonicyouth86, the NIJ is a political organization and as such tends to be biased towards political correctness. In any case they are not more reliable than actual studies conducted by actual researchers. Mystylplx (talk) 18:33, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- I've cited actual studies by actual researchers in the discussion above. Their numbers don't agree with the 'symmetrical' hypothesis. The difference between them and the studies used by Archer, Fiebert, etc. is that they don't rely on the CTS, which only measures certain types of intimate partner violence. We're comparing apples and oranges here. What kind of numbers you get depends on what kind of domestic violence you're looking for. You can't just have one simple number and say "There, that's it!" Domestic violence is a complicated, multifaceted problem. Kaldari (talk) 19:53, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- That's a good reason to leave stuff like that out of the lead entirely, which is really my preference. If statistics by gender are in the lead at all it should be the largest most cited studies. If not then it shouldn't be mentioned at all. The current version has one simple number and says "There! That's it! Mystylplx (talk) 20:03, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- We are not going "There! Thats it." here, except perhaps the people defending the current lead. Notice how broad my range was ("10-35%") and I gave approixmate propotions. The part that really is the problem here for you all, the equal rates bit, has been studied enough for us to give a conclusive statement. Fiebert's bibliography has 282 entries. 147 use the CTS, 19 use the CTS2, 126 use other methodologies. Aside from the fact that criticism of the CTS is mostly just smoke it is not just the CTS. It is the few representative studies that show very disparate rates that are the ones with duvious methodologies. Like the Violence Against Women survey, which you can tell is going to be skewed just from its title, where Strauss (1999) says the questions were phrased in terms of crime and men are much less likely to see violence against them as a crime. extransit (talk) 20:09, 17 October 2011 (UTC) [edit conflict edited]
- I wouldn't object to having no statistics in the lead at all. Of all the statistics we could cite, none of them present a world-wide view of the issue, as they are mostly limited to the United States. Kaldari (talk) 20:15, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- According to the UNFPA (2005) the percentage of women who have reported being physically abused by an intimate partner vary from 69% to 10% depending on the country (no figures are given for men). Given this huge disparity I don't see how it's even helpful for us to cite disputed stats from a single country in the lead. If we cite any stats in the lead, they should be global stats (although since global stats tend to only focus on women, I doubt that would be acceptable to the symmetry advocates). Kaldari (talk) 20:28, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- I find the moving goalposts here amusing. We have had very specific, poorly cited numbers for just the United States in the lead for ages as you have been busy at work. Now, when an overwheling number of sources are marshalled for a description that is acutally accurate.. 'statistics have no place in the lead' or 'they need to be global stats which only focus on women, HAH'? extransit (talk) 20:37, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- I'm not moving the goal-posts, I'm just listing more reasons why your proposed addition to the lead isn't a good idea:
- NPOV: The methodology of those studies is disputed by other scholars, thus they should be presented alongside appropriate criticism.
- Accuracy: Those numbers aren't a good indication of actual domestic violence rates since CTS studies leave out sexual violence and other forms as defined in the lead.
- Global view: Those studies are mostly limited to the United States.
- It just happens that some of those reasons apply to the current wording as well, which I'm certainly not attached to. Kaldari (talk) 21:27, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- I'm not moving the goal-posts, I'm just listing more reasons why your proposed addition to the lead isn't a good idea:
- I find the moving goalposts here amusing. We have had very specific, poorly cited numbers for just the United States in the lead for ages as you have been busy at work. Now, when an overwheling number of sources are marshalled for a description that is acutally accurate.. 'statistics have no place in the lead' or 'they need to be global stats which only focus on women, HAH'? extransit (talk) 20:37, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- BTW, it also looks like the American Psychiatric Association disagrees with your stats. Their Clinical Manual of Prevention in Mental Health (2010) states that "Women are more often the victims of domestic violence than men". If gender symmetry is such an accepted truth, why do so few secondary sources agree with it? Kaldari (talk) 20:35, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- "If gender symmetry is such an accepted truth, why do so few secondary sources agree with it?" I have got you on this one bro. Quoting from the Kimmel you threw at me earlier in an attempt to shut me up: "Reports of gender symmetry have come to dominate the public and media discussions of domestic violence" (p. 2). Check and mate. extransit (talk) 20:59, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- So, lets review (this is a little snarky, I'm sorry). The idea that in terms of all aggressive acts women equal men is
- Accepted by the media. (sez ur bro, Kimmel)
- Supported by 282 scholarly investigations. (sez my bro, Fiebert)
- Disputed by feminists.
- Go figure. extransit (talk) 21:09, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- I was referring to academic secondary sources like sociology textbooks and medical literature, not the mainstream media. Kaldari (talk) 21:30, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- And regarding your "feminists", the most cited study (600+ citations) debunking gender symmetry is by Russell Dobash and 3 co-authors ("The Myth of Sexual Symmetry in Marital Violence"). Dobash is a Professor of Criminology at the University of Manchester and "an internationally recognised expert in the area of domestic violence". He is also co-winner of the American Society of Criminology's August Vollmer Award for significant contribution to research and policy. He's written 3 books about domestic violence and contributed to 14 others. I don't see anything in his CV related to feminism whatsoever. Kaldari (talk) 21:45, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- Hold up. From "Understanding the Complexities of Feminist Perspectives on Woman Abuse: A Commentary on Donald G. Dutton's Rethinking Domestic Violence:"
"Dobash and Dobash published their path-breaking feminist analysis of wife beating in 1979"
- From "Criminology at the Crossroads: Feminist Readings in Crime and Justice":
Feminist explanations of men's violence did not come from criminological theories or vocabularies, but rather from activists and ideas that had been developing outside academic criminology (Dobash and Dobash 1992)
- From "Patriarchal Ideology and Wife Beating: A Test of a Feminist Hypothesis":
Some feminist scholars (eg, Breines & Gordon, 1983; Dobash & Dobash, 1979) have contended that quantitative methods are inappropriate in feminist research
- Yes, so Dobash would appear to be a feminist, and even better yet, the work you would like to present as a neutral reliable source has just been cited as a 'feminist explination developed outside of academic criminology'! My contention, that the only people who fight this fact are feminists, stands. extransit (talk) 01:20, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, Dobash is a feminist. Or at least the bulk of what he writes and speaks about is either mens violence or womens victimization. With the occasional mention of violence against children. In any case he seems to have a very consistent focus. That doesn't make him wrong though, but it does need to be put into perspective--he did one study of 95 couples which attempts to refute 100's of studies totaling tens of thousands of couples. I think that's the main point--not that he's a feminist, but that the overwhelming bulk of the data supports gender symmetry while only a relative few studies contradict it.
- "If gender symmetry is such an accepted truth, why do so few secondary sources agree with it?" I have got you on this one bro. Quoting from the Kimmel you threw at me earlier in an attempt to shut me up: "Reports of gender symmetry have come to dominate the public and media discussions of domestic violence" (p. 2). Check and mate. extransit (talk) 20:59, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- I've cited actual studies by actual researchers in the discussion above. Their numbers don't agree with the 'symmetrical' hypothesis. The difference between them and the studies used by Archer, Fiebert, etc. is that they don't rely on the CTS, which only measures certain types of intimate partner violence. We're comparing apples and oranges here. What kind of numbers you get depends on what kind of domestic violence you're looking for. You can't just have one simple number and say "There, that's it!" Domestic violence is a complicated, multifaceted problem. Kaldari (talk) 19:53, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- Also please see the first ten studies that cite Straus (1990) [2]. If we exclude one study by Straus and one by Archer as well as two studies that mention Straus only in passing (Walker, 2001; Maxwell, 2010), you'll see that the remaining 6 studies are criticisms of the CTS, Straus/Fiebert/Archer or reviews of claims about gender symmetry. Here are some examples.
- I'm glad to see the questionable statistics have been removed from the lead (Thanks Kaldari). I really think it should stay as it is currently. I don't see any need to mention these kind of contested statistics in the lead. The Gender aspects section still needs a lot of work though--it's a complete mess. I keep looking at it and trying to start and going into brain freeze. I think the section needs to state that the great majority of studies support gender symmetry but that there are contradictory studies, that the CTS has been criticized, and that symmetry is not widely accepted by the mainstream. And do so in a way that is clear, concise, and understandable. Mystylplx (talk) 04:14, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
- Just take the statistics out of the lead altogether. It seems pretty clear that the great majority of studies support gender symmetry, but I don't think it's widely accepted by the media (regardless of what Kimmel says) and there are enough contradictory studies to conclude it's an open question. As Kaldari put it, "You can't just have one simple number and say "There, that's it!" Domestic violence is a complicated, multifaceted problem." This particularly applies to the lead. Plus the problems caused to the victims (of either gender) by domestic violence don't change according to whether more women are victims or not. Women victims aren't any less victimized if they are told that there are more woman victims of domestic violence than men, and male victims aren't going to be consoled if they are told the opposite. The best that we can conclude is that it's a disputed question and therefor baldly putting up any particular numbers and stating them as fact is not appropriate. Having said that I'll add that if we must have these kinds of statistics in the lead then it should be what the majority of studies say. Mystylplx (talk) 21:43, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- I have looked through Fiebert's work in the past. Most of the statistics he uses have been obtained by telephone surveys of people in their own homes. These are highly unreliable because; abusers claim to be victims, victims are often in denial and blame themselves, victims are unlikely to talk freely when an abuser may be present or there is a possibility of their conversation being secretly recorded. It is just very difficult to obtain good statistics on such a complex problem and trying to put a claim of greater female violence into the lead section on the basis of dubious statistics is untenable.--Expsychobabbler (talk) 22:57, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- See WP:OR. Also note that the current statistics in the lead come from a CDC pamphlet which in turn references a study which was conducted by... a telephone survey. Mystylplx (talk) 23:29, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- Dobash et al. have covered this in their debunking of Fiebert, which is not original research. Fiebert is not a reliable source.--Expsychobabbler (talk) 09:06, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
- Dobash is not a reliable source. He merely dismisses data that he doesn't like. He presents no evidence. He is notable enough that his criticisms should be mentioned, but certainly not notable enough to simply dismiss the great bulk of the research on this question. Mystylplx (talk) 15:47, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
- Dobash et al. have covered this in their debunking of Fiebert, which is not original research. Fiebert is not a reliable source.--Expsychobabbler (talk) 09:06, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
- See WP:OR. Also note that the current statistics in the lead come from a CDC pamphlet which in turn references a study which was conducted by... a telephone survey. Mystylplx (talk) 23:29, 17 October 2011 (UTC)