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::::This is the correct place. It is literally taken word-from-word from the article so at the very least is a direct quote and should be presented as such. Since the lifted text contains two sentences and a quote itself this would not only be the height of laziness, but very bad form. Also it is the only two sentences in her entire paper that apply to Coplon's article so it is not a minor tract, but the only tract. As to the heading the very first sentence says that Coplon was influenced by Tottle so it is linked or something needs to change. You even have a paragraph under Tottle saying "other similar writings". Original research is being thrown around here like candy from a lolly scramble without too much understanding of how the concept works. [[User:Aircorn|AIR<font color="green">'''''corn'''''</font>]] [[User talk:Aircorn|(talk)]] 15:47, 13 November 2015 (UTC) |
::::This is the correct place. It is literally taken word-from-word from the article so at the very least is a direct quote and should be presented as such. Since the lifted text contains two sentences and a quote itself this would not only be the height of laziness, but very bad form. Also it is the only two sentences in her entire paper that apply to Coplon's article so it is not a minor tract, but the only tract. As to the heading the very first sentence says that Coplon was influenced by Tottle so it is linked or something needs to change. You even have a paragraph under Tottle saying "other similar writings". Original research is being thrown around here like candy from a lolly scramble without too much understanding of how the concept works. [[User:Aircorn|AIR<font color="green">'''''corn'''''</font>]] [[User talk:Aircorn|(talk)]] 15:47, 13 November 2015 (UTC) |
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:::::OK, let's fix it. And I agree with one of your suggestions above: to include direct quotations from works by Coplon. However his main idea was not about Stalin, but about Holodomor being used as propaganda to feed "the right". [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 16:32, 13 November 2015 (UTC) |
:::::OK, let's fix it. And I agree with one of your suggestions above: to include direct quotations from works by Coplon. However his main idea was not about Stalin, but about Holodomor being used as propaganda to feed "the right". [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 16:32, 13 November 2015 (UTC) |
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To all: Firstly please dont change the text in the middle of a rfc otherwise how will people know? let it run for the full duration. Second please keep in mind that this is the page for denial and not for general discusion of the holodomor. There is already a page which discusses the genocide question and the causes of the famine. [[User:Kingsindian|Kingsindian]] [[User Talk: Kingsindian|♝]][[Special:Contributions/Kingsindian|♚]] 01:56, 14 November 2015 (UTC) |
Revision as of 01:56, 14 November 2015
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simplify the repetitive intro
Major edits need to be discussed - Inaccurate summaries such as simplify the repetitive intro to explain wholesale deletion of properly statements as well as changing the meanings of others is wrong. Reverting so you can properly explain your rationale. Bobanni (talk) 00:35, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
- If you disagree with my edit summaries, please state clearly what pieces you want back and we shall discuss it. Reverting is inadmissible approach: I am not a vandal and you do not own the article. Timurite (talk) 17:26, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
- One thing I immediately see may trigger revert response is my significant shortening of the definition of Holodomor. I done this because it is article intro, and it must be concise definition of the subject of the article. Holodomor has its own article one mouse click away (wikipedia is not paper), and you don't need detailed, referenced, definition in the introduction of article on a different topic. Timurite (talk) 17:31, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
- I also merged together several sentence which say the same only obviously inserted by different people whoi didn't care to read what was already written and didn't bother to make smooth, consistent flow of the text. Timurite (talk) 17:33, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
- I also deleted a protrait of a person. There are dozens of important people involved both in holodomor and denial. Their facebook will not help in understandint the concept. Timurite (talk) 17:37, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
- Now, it is your turn to point which important info I removed you think. Timurite (talk) 17:34, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
- Old version Today, no serious academic scholars claim that the famine did not take place, but the very fact of the famine's existence is still disputed by fringe writers and organizations. The causes, nature and extent of the Holodomor remain topics of controversy and active scholarship and whether the Holodomor was a genocide is controversial.
- Timurite version The famine's existence is still disputed by some, despite a general consensus. The causes, nature and extent of the Holodomor remain topics of controversy and active scholarship.
- Removed no serious academic scholars claim that the famine did not take place
- Removed whether the Holodomor was a genocide is controversial.
- Removed The term "Holodomor" (Ukrainian: Голодомор, often translated as "death by hunger")
Sources needed!
In the section "Communist Party of the USA," the same two sources are cited several times throughout the paragraphs, numbered 40 and 41. 40 leads to a 404 not found page, while 41 leads to a POV-written letter, rather than anything resembling a direct source of information. 41 alone cannot support what is written in this section, hence it will be removed until an editor can provide sources.
96.54.203.195 (talk) 15:32, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
- The problem with the section is that is copied verbatim from this source: [1]. So while the info is legit the text needs to be re-written and paraphrased. Volunteer Marek 10:57, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
Why...
Petri, WHY are you putting stuff based on non-reliable sources, which YOU KNOW are unreliable into the article [2] [3] and at the same time keep putting in some weird stuff about some goat, among other weird things, into it????? Please stop. Your actions are clearly disruptive. It's fine to put in stuff from reliable sources ABOUT the likes of Dyukov and Tottle into the article but not those guys themselves. It's also not fine to accompany these unreliable sources and weird statements with very POVed commentary of your own. Volunteer Marek (talk) 06:22, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
GPU
From Boriak, Hennadii (Fall 2001). "The publication of sources on the history of the 1932-1933 famine-genocide: history, current state, and prospects". Harvard Ukrainian Studies 25 (3-4):
The GPU documents reveal that a high degree of attention was paid to subjective aspects of Famine events. In particular, there are descriptions of the political opinions of the peasants, workers, and intelligentsia, as well as of the frightening phenomenon of cannibalism. According to Ruslan Pyrih, the analysis of available documents proves that as food shortages rose and mass starvation increased, the GPU became the most important agency responsible for collecting and summarizing statistical information. At the height of the tragedy, in the spring and beginning of the summer of 1933, this agency became the only likely source of such information. The facts reported in the GPU documents are highly reliable, and they are consistent with our view of the historical setting in which they occurred. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.134.200.174 (talk) 09:06, 22 November 2010 (UTC) + Text The true number of dead was concealed. At the Kiev Medical Inspectorate, for example, the actual number of corpses, 9,472, was recorded as only 3,997. also does not exist at Harvard Ukrainian Studies 25 (3-4):- as claimed
- From same source:
Second, in view of the scale of the Famine, only the GPU organization with its broad network of agents and unlimited power could secure—or falsify—a complete body of information about the Famine-Genocide.
In spite of the fact that the birth and death records (metrychni knyhy) were for the most part destroyed by order of the GPU, and that information about the causes and scale of death has been falsified, some registry books for 1932-1933 have, nevertheless, survived.
- ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 16:34, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
File:Famine Kharkov girl and goat 1933.jpg Nominated for Deletion
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Alteration of sourced content (without new attribution) by user with IP address 68.53.88.130?
I was checking back on some mechanical edits I had made to this article when I noticed another user has made changes to sourced content without providing new sources. Could the original editor or someone else familiar with the sources cited take a look at this. For example, the assertion that President Kravchuk was a controversial color-revolution figure, is not supported by any source and seems to be contradicted by the material in this article as well as the Kravchuk article. Wasn't the color-revolution president Yuschenko? I went ahead and reverted some of the edits of the IP address user on the grounds they don't include sources and seem to be POV statements contradicting the sources in the original material. Other edits of the IP user that seem less controversial I left intact. Paavo273 (talk) 07:53, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
Ukrainian Law
Presumably the law criminalising denial was never passed and this was because of change of government. If this is the case the article should make it clear. Sceptic1954 (talk) 21:54, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
- I cleaned up the draft law verbiage and provided continuity narrative regarding the change in position of the office of the President of Ukraine. VєсrumЬа ►TALK 00:56, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
- Was it a matter of it not being passed or a matter of its selective application? There are many laws the current government chooses not to enforce. Hell, the Kharkiv Accords violated the constitution. --Львівське (говорити) 01:40, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
Claims and evidence
Should we mention that certain people who deny the holodomor in reality deny that it was caused by excessive demands from the Soviets? Ukraine has apparently had multiple famines before the holodomor due to natural causes and there r claims that kulaks were partially to blame. People like Douglas Tottle have written about this and apparently have acclamation. socialistguy - when you make/review edits, please make sure they're neutral and cover/acknowledge multiple POVs. Thank you (talk) 04:01, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
- Socialistguy, you have already started a section on the Holodomor on exactly the same theme. Please abstain from WP:FORUMSHOPPING. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:03, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
- Iryna Harpy should I just delete this section? socialistguy - when you make/review edits, please make sure they're neutral and cover/acknowledge multiple POVs. Thank you (talk) 06:02, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
- No need. You've received a couple of responses, therefore there's no reason to remove it. The comment on the other talk page can stay also. As noted, your being a new user means that you're allowed plenty of scope with good faith mistakes/misunderstandings. We all know that getting one's head around policies and guidelines is seriously steep learning curve (and that without having to check through talk page histories, etc.). There's certainly no harm done to your reputation, so happy editing! --Iryna Harpy (talk) 06:12, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
- Iryna Harpy should I just delete this section? socialistguy - when you make/review edits, please make sure they're neutral and cover/acknowledge multiple POVs. Thank you (talk) 06:02, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
NO Original Research
As per this discussion [4], the paragraph about Jeff Coplon is original reasearch and the source used is regarded as unreliable by the wikipedia community, ask User:My very best wishes for clarifications. -- Flushout1999 (talk) 06:44, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
Sorry to have bothered you with my deletions. There are other users (not me) who thinks the article of Jeff Coplon was an unreliable source and should not be cited or used in any form, in addition the paragraph dedicated to Jeff Coplon as been labeled as OR by the very same user. Thanks for having clarified it. -- Flushout1999 (talk) 11:29, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
- No. Actually, I think that providing direct quotations of Coplon and summarizing his views on this page is adequate. The source is good enough to document claims by Coplon (there is no doubts that he said it), but using claims by Coplon to discredit notable academics is wrong. He is not a sufficiently good source for that. My very best wishes (talk) 14:54, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
- Here is what you wrote [5]:
- The section Denial_of_the_Holodomor#Jeff_Coplon is nothing more than an editor's opinion about Coplon, based on two articles written by him. Those two articles (and an article by Wilfred Szczesny, presented as "other similar writings") are the only sources given. I would call that a textbook example of WP:OR. Ssscienccce (talk) 17:43, 21 October 2015 (UTC) ; edited 19:07, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, sure. 'This paragraph is OR based on precisely the same unrelaible source', only by someone else and on a different page. Note the url which leads to website of Grover Furr, a notorious Stalinist apologist.'My very best wishes' (talk) 17:59, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
- It has become now apparent that you were dead wrong, the source is reliable, and moreover there is no WP:OR. I noticed you used WP:OR and "unreliable source" as an excuse for deletions in other articles. It is now apparent that things cannot work in the way you do. You cannot delete the edits of the others because solely along your own personal point of view WP:PPOV sources are unreliable or you are making up in your mind a WP:OR original research is ongoing. Keep it in mind and admit you have been wrong: the sources on Denial of the Holodomor#Jeff Coplon are ok. -- Flushout1999 (talk) 20:01, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
- Please check WP:RS. Questionable and highly biased sources, such as that one, have a limited usage. For example, quoting David Irving may be fine on a page about him, but not on the page about Holocaust. Same with using Coplon as a source. My very best wishes (talk) 20:28, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
- Again, sorry but you are wrong. The article of Coplon is just a recollection of historians opinions and facts taken by other sources that he uses to put forward his personal own point of view, thus the citations from historians he interviewed and facts he reported can be cited (specially if the are present in other reliable sources or/and if hey are supported by other sources too). In fact nobody put in this very page also the opinions of those historians and label them as "holodomor deniers" as everybody knows they are not deniers of anything. Also, in that particular case, what is reported concerning uniquely that particular book and author (and not the more general question) also can be reported as part of "criticisms" occured to that particular book, stating "according to journalist Coplon". But as an exercise let's do this: I could even drop his source completely, let's see what happens. However, let's talk about it in the appropriate place. Now is clear that the Jeff Coplon's source belongs to this one article here. -- Flushout1999 (talk) 06:35, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
- Please check WP:RS. Questionable and highly biased sources, such as that one, have a limited usage. For example, quoting David Irving may be fine on a page about him, but not on the page about Holocaust. Same with using Coplon as a source. My very best wishes (talk) 20:28, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
- Seems clear that the section about Coplon is OR. It needs a RS confirming that his article denies the Holodomor. I've added templates. Ssscienccce (talk) 13:29, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
- This source does make such connection [6]. Is it reliable? Well, one could reasonably argue that Cathy Young is definitely more famous than Coplon. My very best wishes (talk) 15:27, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
- I certainly would argue that this goes to demonstrating that Coplon is notable enough for the subject per WP:TITLE as his opinions have undoubtedly generated enough discussion to merit inclusion. On that note, however, the inclusion of opinions is judged on an article by article basis. In context, his opinions - as currently depicted - has been demonstrated to be neither OR, nor UNDUE. Note, however, that the inclusion of Coplon in this article is not a blank cheque for inclusion of his opinions on related articles. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 02:25, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
- OK, I fixed this paragraph. My very best wishes (talk) 04:41, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
- Agreed that this is actually far better than the protracted quotes and overemphasis of his importance as a serious player in the Holodomor Denial stakes. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:04, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
- OK, I fixed this paragraph. My very best wishes (talk) 04:41, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
- I certainly would argue that this goes to demonstrating that Coplon is notable enough for the subject per WP:TITLE as his opinions have undoubtedly generated enough discussion to merit inclusion. On that note, however, the inclusion of opinions is judged on an article by article basis. In context, his opinions - as currently depicted - has been demonstrated to be neither OR, nor UNDUE. Note, however, that the inclusion of Coplon in this article is not a blank cheque for inclusion of his opinions on related articles. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 02:25, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
- This source does make such connection [6]. Is it reliable? Well, one could reasonably argue that Cathy Young is definitely more famous than Coplon. My very best wishes (talk) 15:27, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
WP:OR in the "Modern Denial" section.
I have been bold and removed the massive WP:OR in the Modern Denial section. Feel free to revert/discuss. I am not particularly knowledgeable about the topic. The main problem is that there is no definition of "modern denial" present. The lead for the article states explicitly that the causes of the famine and its classification as genocide is a valid historical question. This does not constitute Holodomor denial by itself.
- Coplon: Cathy Young does not state that Coplon engaged in Holodomor denial. Moreover, she is a journalist, and it is not clear why her opinion is important. Coplon explicitly states that there was a famine and that Stalin was partly responsible. Please find a respectable scholarly or otherwise source which makes the claim. The last paragraph in the section is a duplicate of the last paragraph in the previous section.
- Stephen Merl: Same. There is no source at all which states that this is Holodomor Denial except a discussion at a mailing list. Please find a real source. Why does this guy deserve space anyway? Who is he? There must be thousands of nutcases around the world.
- Mario Sousa probably qualifies. I read his stuff. But there is again no source for the claim. Who is this guy anyway. Does anyone pay attention to his ravings? Still, I have left the section untouched.
- John Puntis: I do not know much about the Stalin Society. It probably can't be good. But again, this section is pure WP:OR. I have left it untouched for now. Kingsindian ♝♚ 20:01, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
- Reverted per WP:BRD. According to Kathy Young, "In January 1988, the Village Voice ran a lengthy essay by Jeff Coplon (now a contributing editor at New York magazine) titled "In Search of a Soviet Holocaust: A 55-Year-Old Famine Feeds the Right." Coplon sneered at "the prevailing vogue of anti-Stalinism" and dismissed as absurd the idea that the famine had been created by the Communist regime. Such talk, he asserted, was meant to justify U.S. imperialism and whitewash Ukrainian collaboration with the Nazis." Hence Coplon dismissed as absurd the idea that the famine had been created by the Communist regime. Consider a journalist who dismissed as absurd the idea that the Holocaust had been created by the Nazi regime. Would he qualify as a Holocaust denialist? Now, if you think that Cathy Yang was wrong, please bring other sources, but not your personal opinion, and not the writings by Coplon himself. Stephen Merl was sourced by previous contributors. Unfortunately I do not know German to check, but AGF previous contributors. My very best wishes (talk) 13:26, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
- I am happy that you are discussing stuff, but you have seemingly not read a word I wrote. Firstly, the last paragraph of the Coplon section is simply repeating the last paragraph of the previous section, yet you have restored it. That should be removed independently of the merits of the case. Secondly, have you looked at the Stephen Merl section? There are two sources, one is Merl himself, and one for a discussion on a mailing list. Unless Merl calls himself a Holodomor denier, there are literally no sources there. Btw, who is Stephen Merl and why should we care? There are thousands of nutcases all over the world. Why does it matter if some random guy says some random stuff? Thirdly, regarding Coplon, the main point is that the concept of "Modern Denial" is nowhere defined. Unless Cathy Young calls Coplon a Holodomor denier, you can't interpolate your own opinion that Coplon is a "denier". Lastly, why is the opinion of Cathy Young important? She is not an expert, nor does she give any quotes or evidence from the Village Voice article to state that he denied that the Communist regime caused the famine. By the way Jeff Coplon seems to be alive, so this unfounded accusation that he is a "Holodomor denier" without any sources at all would also violate WP:BLP. Kingsindian ♝♚ 13:51, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
- Stephen Merl - agree, removed. This can be included back only if better sourced (or if someones who knows German can verify the refs). I also removed some stuff from Coplon section. Speaking about quotation by Cathy Young - this is reliably sourced and not a BLP violation, but just a normal discourse/discussion. Note that Coplon is also a journalist, but less notable than Cathy Young. Does the quotation by Young about Coplon belongs to this page? I think that yes, it does - as something obvious/self-evident (see my previous comment). Yes, this is partly a matter of judgement, so you are very welcome to submit an RfC about it, but I still believe this is something which obviously qualify as a Holodomor denial. My very best wishes (talk) 16:28, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
- P.S. According to US Library of Congress subject headings, the "Holodomor denial" literature includes works that "diminish the scale and significance of the Ukrainian Famine of 1932-1933 or assert that it did not occur" [7]. My very best wishes (talk) 16:53, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
- The US Library of Congress source you cited does not state what it means to "diminish the scale and significance of the Ukrainian Famine of 1932-1933" neither cites Coplon. It is still your own opinion that it refers to Coplon. If you can find more proof then you could state "According to the US Library of Congress" but for the moment the paragraph on Coplon should be deleted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Flushout1999 (talk • contribs) 17:22, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
- As I wrote in here [8], Coplon never said the famine did not occur but instead only denied that it was a "genocide" and that it was "planned/premeditated", as most sovietologist historian do (for example R.W. Davies and S. Wheatcroft [9], but even the later Robert Conquest [10], [11] pag.3 note 6),, but also, it is not clear at all what is that makes different a "holodomor denier" journalist denying human premeditation in the famine, from a respected historian denying the very same premeditation!
- Actually it seems to me that confusion arise because in the article it is not stated very well if to be "holodomor denier" means one person denying just the existence of the famine itself (like Walter Duranty did), or if it means one who denies that it was "planned/premeditated" or that it was "genocide", without denying its existence. Anyway such interpretations of the term "Holodomor Denier" should be correctly referenced writing "according to.." as there is no general/international consensus on whether the famine was planned or not, and on wheter was genocide or not.
- It must be noted that Coplon in "In Search of a Soviet Holocaust" (here:[12]) states "Stalin and the Politburo played major roles" and "[Responsability for the famine] has to be shared by the tens of thousands of activists and officials who carried out the policy and by the peasants who chose to slaughter animals, burn fields, and boycott cultivation in protest". He is clearly not saying at all "[I dismiss] as absurd the idea that the famine had been created by the Communist regime".
- We are clearly in front of a misinterpretation from Cathy Young. Coplon does not say "it was not created by", Coplon says "it was co-created by", so that he recognizes the responsabilities of the Party and the State.
- The situation created in this section is deeply troubling, as the conclusion "Jeff Coplon=Holodomor Denier" can put in the position of being "Holodomor Deniers" many sovietologist historians. In my opinion, since such statements are clearly crossing the boundaries of defamation and since Cathy Young is using a primary source that does not say at all what she states (so that her article fails verifiability), the part on Jeff Coplon should be deleted, as well as all the parts which refers to people that never denied the famine existence. This will probably need a close examination of the sources cited in the section. -- Flushout1999 (talk) 17:11, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
- @My very best wishes: It is indeed a WP:BLP violation because it is in the section labeled "Modern Denial", which is nowhere defined. The section calls Coplon a Holodomor denier, which Young does not. Look, the article was written in 1988, and many people then, and still some people now assign responsibility in different ways. For instance, see this 1991 this Slavic Review article even questioning the category of the "man-made" to the famine. Also, the categorization of the event as genocide is very much disputed, with many good faith people disagreeing. See this article from 2009. If this kind of stuff is deemed to be denial of the Holodomor, a large part of historical scholarship would be deemed denial. Kingsindian ♝♚ 17:19, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
- Speaking about genocide, we have a separate page, Holodomor genocide question. This page is about a different, although related subject. If you think this is a BLP violation, please post a question on WP:BLPNB. No, I believe this is obviously not a BLP violation, but merely a sourced comment by a well known journalist. Does this info belong to this page? That's why I quoted subject headings by US Library of Congress. Yes, this thing does belong to the subject, which I think is a matter of trivial judgement. My very best wishes (talk) 17:30, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
- It is useless arguing more. I will wait for comment by other people, or open an RfC if necessary. Kingsindian ♝♚ 17:32, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
- The fact is that there is a new academic revisionist approach which has continued to ignore eyewitness accounts, research in Poland and Ukraine, and the research commissioned by Western grants and begun by Conquest, and with no students of this line of enquiry being supported by Western academic institutions. I'm afraid I'm about to pack it in for the day, but am more than happy to pursue this discussion further when I'm tired. As you've said yourself, Kingsindian, you're not familiar with this subject matter (is it safe to assume that the "Holodomor genocide question" is the article you found Tauger's piece in?). Personally, I don't even see how a subject this complex could even be well defined enough to set up as an RfC. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:02, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- @Iryna Harpy: I don't understand your reply at all, sorry. Perhaps you mean "when I'm not tired"? Have a good rest, and we will continue the discussion later. Kingsindian ♝♚ 05:07, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- @Kingsindian: Quite! Thanks, I'll log out now and return when I'm not cross-eyed. Cheers for now! --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:16, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- @Iryna Harpy: I don't understand your reply at all, sorry. Perhaps you mean "when I'm not tired"? Have a good rest, and we will continue the discussion later. Kingsindian ♝♚ 05:07, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- Let's stay focused. We only disagree about Coplon. Kingsindian seem to argue that Coplon is so non-notable that his views should not be quoted anywhere including this page. Yes, this is something I probably can agree with. However, I would argue that Cathy Young is sufficiently notable to use her publication for sourcing on this page. My very best wishes (talk) 09:35, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- I am not arguing that Coplon is non-notable. I was arguing that about the other people though. I am arguing that nobody calls Coplon a Holodomor denier, including Cathy Young. Absent such a description, it is WP:OR (not to mention violating WP:BLP) to put him in the "Modern denial" section. Kingsindian ♝♚ 13:03, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- No, as clear after reading the entire text, she explicitly uses expression "Holodomor denial" in her article and considers Coplon and Getty as people who belong to the same group as the famous "denialist" Walter Duranty (she mentioned him in a paragraph before Coplon). My very best wishes (talk) 13:55, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- I was just replying to your comment about my argument - my argument is not that Coplon is non-notable. If you are arguing that J._Arch_Getty is also a Holodomor denier. Are you going to add him to the article? Pretty soon you will have half the historical scholarship on this page. Kingsindian ♝♚ 14:14, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- No, I am not going to add anything here. I only responded to your comments by fixing a couple of paragraphs that need be fixed (I agree), but complete removal of the paragraph about Coplon is hardly justified, unless you argue that he is a totally non-notable writer, which you do not if I understand correctly. Speaking about the "deniers" in general (no matter if this is Holocaust, Armenian genocide or Holodomor), they do include academics and journalists. This is nothing unusual. My very best wishes (talk) 15:11, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- Perhaps you misunderstood my point. I am saying that if you claim that Cathy Young calls Coplon a denier, then also calls Getty a denier. If that is your position, he should be added to the article, since he is vastly more significant than Coplon - Getty being a historical scholar at a major university, who writes right up to the present day. It was meant as a reductio ad absurdum. Kingsindian ♝♚ 15:40, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- Here is the difference between Coplon and Getty. Coplon is someone barely notable. I could not find any 3rd party sources about him except this article by Young. So whatever she tells about him should be included per WP:NPOV. If you can find other sources about him, they too should be used per WP:NPOV. As about Getty, his work and views are described in a larger number of publications, so one should really look through all of them to provide an adequate description. This is something I have no time to do, but you are very welcome. My very best wishes (talk) 15:56, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- You are still missing the point. Find me one respectable scholar who calls Getty a "Holodomor denier". Cathy Young would not make such a ridiculous claim about Getty, yet your position is that Getty and Coplon are in the same category. But, as I said, it useless to argue more, your mind is made up. Kingsindian ♝♚ 16:07, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- Your argument works against you because describing Getty as a revisionist historian/denier is not at all ridiculous, but probably a common place. For example, this book published by other academics in Oxford University Press describes his views as [13]
."similar in many ways to the line taken by the revisionist school in Germany, with its opposition to moral condemnation of Nazism, its call to "historicize" Nazism, and its objection to such crude terms as "heroes" and "villains"".
- In other words, there is no source which calls him a "Holodomor denier". Perhaps you should read WP:OR again.
This includes any analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to reach or imply a conclusion not stated by the sources.
Kingsindian ♝♚ 16:33, 3 November 2015 (UTC)- No, the article by Young (currently quoted on this page) does describe him and Coplon as modern-day followers of well known Holodomor denier Walter Duranty. However, to include Getty on this page one must check not only her article, but a lot more sources about his work to comply with WP:NPOV. That is what I said. My very best wishes (talk) 16:44, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- In other words, there is no source which calls him a "Holodomor denier". Perhaps you should read WP:OR again.
- You are still missing the point. Find me one respectable scholar who calls Getty a "Holodomor denier". Cathy Young would not make such a ridiculous claim about Getty, yet your position is that Getty and Coplon are in the same category. But, as I said, it useless to argue more, your mind is made up. Kingsindian ♝♚ 16:07, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- Here is the difference between Coplon and Getty. Coplon is someone barely notable. I could not find any 3rd party sources about him except this article by Young. So whatever she tells about him should be included per WP:NPOV. If you can find other sources about him, they too should be used per WP:NPOV. As about Getty, his work and views are described in a larger number of publications, so one should really look through all of them to provide an adequate description. This is something I have no time to do, but you are very welcome. My very best wishes (talk) 15:56, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- Perhaps you misunderstood my point. I am saying that if you claim that Cathy Young calls Coplon a denier, then also calls Getty a denier. If that is your position, he should be added to the article, since he is vastly more significant than Coplon - Getty being a historical scholar at a major university, who writes right up to the present day. It was meant as a reductio ad absurdum. Kingsindian ♝♚ 15:40, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- No, I am not going to add anything here. I only responded to your comments by fixing a couple of paragraphs that need be fixed (I agree), but complete removal of the paragraph about Coplon is hardly justified, unless you argue that he is a totally non-notable writer, which you do not if I understand correctly. Speaking about the "deniers" in general (no matter if this is Holocaust, Armenian genocide or Holodomor), they do include academics and journalists. This is nothing unusual. My very best wishes (talk) 15:11, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- I was just replying to your comment about my argument - my argument is not that Coplon is non-notable. If you are arguing that J._Arch_Getty is also a Holodomor denier. Are you going to add him to the article? Pretty soon you will have half the historical scholarship on this page. Kingsindian ♝♚ 14:14, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- @My very best wishes -- I'm sorry but it appears that you don't read at all what we are writing you.
- 1) Coplon in "In Search of a Soviet Holocaust" (here:[14]) states "There was indeed a famine in the Ukraine in the early 1930s." so that it's really clear from his articles that he never denied the Holodomor.
- 2) He also states "Stalin and the Politburo played major roles", so that he recognizes the responsabilities of the Party and the State. He is clearly not saying at all "[I dismiss] as absurd the idea that the famine had been created by the Communist regime" as Young states [15]. We are clearly in front of a misinterpretation from Cathy Young. Cathy Young is using a primary source [16] that does not say at all what she states (so that her opinion about Coplon fails verifiability).
- 3) Also Coplon writes: "By any scale, this is an enormous toll of human suffering", so that he is clearly not at all "diminishing the significance" of the famine.
- You and Hyrina told me earlier that this source was good as a primary source here (but in first place you said yourself this was WP:OR [17]) and that this was not a good secondary source for other articles. Now it is evident it is the other way around: this source is absolutely not good at all in order to show that Coplon is a "Holodomor Denier". The part regarding Coplon should be deleted and the other parts as well need a close verification of the sources.
- I understand that in your personal POV you are sure he is a "holodomor denier" but this is not reported in any source you are citing. If you don't find a reliable source this is just a WP:OR because the conclusion "Jeff Coplon=Holodomor Denier" is not contained in the references given, thus should be deleted. In fact, as stated by Kingsindian, nobody calls Coplon a Holodomor denier. -- Flushout1999 (talk) 13:23, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- (a) no, it is contained in the reference (see my comment above), and (b) in this and many other comments you are trying to disprove something that RS tell which qualifies as WP:OR, even if you were an expert on the subject. My very best wishes (talk) 14:06, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- Sorry but I read all the Young article, both pages [18][19], and I could only find this: "In November 2006, the Ukrainian parliament passed a bill proclaiming the Holodomor a genocide and making Holodomor denial "unlawful."" It is not written at all "Coplon and Getty are Holodomor deniers", neither it's written they are so for the Ukrainian parliament. Also, as I wrote above, Coplon doesn't deny the Holodor existence and doesn't diminish its significance. Coplon being in the "Modern Denial" section is not supported by any evidence, thus is WP:OR and should be deleted. -- Flushout1999 (talk) 14:54, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- It is abundantly clear what she means because she tells about them as modern-day followers of Walter Duranty. My very best wishes (talk) 15:17, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- (a) no, it is contained in the reference (see my comment above), and (b) in this and many other comments you are trying to disprove something that RS tell which qualifies as WP:OR, even if you were an expert on the subject. My very best wishes (talk) 14:06, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- I am not arguing that Coplon is non-notable. I was arguing that about the other people though. I am arguing that nobody calls Coplon a Holodomor denier, including Cathy Young. Absent such a description, it is WP:OR (not to mention violating WP:BLP) to put him in the "Modern denial" section. Kingsindian ♝♚ 13:03, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- The fact is that there is a new academic revisionist approach which has continued to ignore eyewitness accounts, research in Poland and Ukraine, and the research commissioned by Western grants and begun by Conquest, and with no students of this line of enquiry being supported by Western academic institutions. I'm afraid I'm about to pack it in for the day, but am more than happy to pursue this discussion further when I'm tired. As you've said yourself, Kingsindian, you're not familiar with this subject matter (is it safe to assume that the "Holodomor genocide question" is the article you found Tauger's piece in?). Personally, I don't even see how a subject this complex could even be well defined enough to set up as an RfC. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:02, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- It is useless arguing more. I will wait for comment by other people, or open an RfC if necessary. Kingsindian ♝♚ 17:32, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
- Speaking about genocide, we have a separate page, Holodomor genocide question. This page is about a different, although related subject. If you think this is a BLP violation, please post a question on WP:BLPNB. No, I believe this is obviously not a BLP violation, but merely a sourced comment by a well known journalist. Does this info belong to this page? That's why I quoted subject headings by US Library of Congress. Yes, this thing does belong to the subject, which I think is a matter of trivial judgement. My very best wishes (talk) 17:30, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
- P.S. According to US Library of Congress subject headings, the "Holodomor denial" literature includes works that "diminish the scale and significance of the Ukrainian Famine of 1932-1933 or assert that it did not occur" [7]. My very best wishes (talk) 16:53, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
- Stephen Merl - agree, removed. This can be included back only if better sourced (or if someones who knows German can verify the refs). I also removed some stuff from Coplon section. Speaking about quotation by Cathy Young - this is reliably sourced and not a BLP violation, but just a normal discourse/discussion. Note that Coplon is also a journalist, but less notable than Cathy Young. Does the quotation by Young about Coplon belongs to this page? I think that yes, it does - as something obvious/self-evident (see my previous comment). Yes, this is partly a matter of judgement, so you are very welcome to submit an RfC about it, but I still believe this is something which obviously qualify as a Holodomor denial. My very best wishes (talk) 16:28, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
- I am happy that you are discussing stuff, but you have seemingly not read a word I wrote. Firstly, the last paragraph of the Coplon section is simply repeating the last paragraph of the previous section, yet you have restored it. That should be removed independently of the merits of the case. Secondly, have you looked at the Stephen Merl section? There are two sources, one is Merl himself, and one for a discussion on a mailing list. Unless Merl calls himself a Holodomor denier, there are literally no sources there. Btw, who is Stephen Merl and why should we care? There are thousands of nutcases all over the world. Why does it matter if some random guy says some random stuff? Thirdly, regarding Coplon, the main point is that the concept of "Modern Denial" is nowhere defined. Unless Cathy Young calls Coplon a Holodomor denier, you can't interpolate your own opinion that Coplon is a "denier". Lastly, why is the opinion of Cathy Young important? She is not an expert, nor does she give any quotes or evidence from the Village Voice article to state that he denied that the Communist regime caused the famine. By the way Jeff Coplon seems to be alive, so this unfounded accusation that he is a "Holodomor denier" without any sources at all would also violate WP:BLP. Kingsindian ♝♚ 13:51, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
Iryna Harpy looks to be busy elsewhere, so I am going ahead with the edit. As far as I can see, there is only one editor My very best wishes who wishes to include the material about Coplon labeling him a Holodomor denier. There seems to be no consensus for this, and per WP:ONUS, the burden for consensus rests on the editor wishing to keep the content. Feel free to discuss this more here. Kingsindian ♝♚ 05:56, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
- Kingsindian, you are busy trying to rush through changes on the pretext that I am busy elsewhere. Yes, indeed, that has been so. This, however, is not an RfC, an AfD, or even an RM where there are time constraints placed on discussions regarding content, therefore the fact that you have decided that Coplon probably isn't a Holodomor denial (having admitted that your knowledge of this subject is highly limited) is false consensus. Two against one does not make for consensus, nor does it accommodate NPOV. As has already been pointed out (several times over) by My very best wishes, we have an RS in Young calling him a Holodomor denier... therefore there is no BLPVIO in need of being quickly eliminated. It is attributed. Any other arguments need to wait until I'm not bogged down in edit warring on other articles and IRL issues.
- On that understanding, I'm reverting your elimination of long standing content which has not really been well discussed with editors who actually know the subject matter. Thank you. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 09:32, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
- @Iryna Harpy: I am not trying to "rush through anything" - after all I waited five days. The "long standing content" which you talk about had zero sources, and cannot be treated as stable. The newer version has very little, if anything to do with the old content. You are free to take as much time as you like, and if you want, I can create an RfC for this, but meanwhile there is no consensus, and the material should stay out, per WP:ONUS and WP:BLP. Kingsindian ♝♚ 10:41, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
- You tell: "The newer version has very little, if anything to do with the old content". No, this is exactly the same claim as before, except that it has been rephrased, the previously unsourced text was removed, and the remaining text was properly sourced. Iryna was right. My very best wishes (talk) 17:39, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
- Here's the old version, here is the new version. There is exactly one sentence common (Coplon's article was "inspired" by Tottle), which is again unsourced and plain WP:OR - the source is to Coplon's article which states no such thing. Kingsindian ♝♚ 10:20, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
- You tell: "The newer version has very little, if anything to do with the old content". No, this is exactly the same claim as before, except that it has been rephrased, the previously unsourced text was removed, and the remaining text was properly sourced. Iryna was right. My very best wishes (talk) 17:39, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
- @Iryna Harpy: I am not trying to "rush through anything" - after all I waited five days. The "long standing content" which you talk about had zero sources, and cannot be treated as stable. The newer version has very little, if anything to do with the old content. You are free to take as much time as you like, and if you want, I can create an RfC for this, but meanwhile there is no consensus, and the material should stay out, per WP:ONUS and WP:BLP. Kingsindian ♝♚ 10:41, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
RfC: Jeff Coplon in the "Modern Denial" section
Should the "Modern Denial" section contain the following?
Tottle's book inspired a number of articles such as Jeff Coplon's article "In Search of a Soviet Holocaust".[1] In the article, according to Cathy Young, Coplon sneered at "the prevailing vogue of anti-Stalinism" and dismissed as absurd the idea that the famine had been created by the Communist regime. Such talk, he asserted, was meant to justify U.S. imperialism and whitewash Ukrainian collaboration with the Nazis.".[2]
References
- ^ Jeff Coplon, "In Search of a Soviet Holocaust", The Village Voice, January 12, 1988.
- ^ Cathy Young (8 December 2008). "Remember the Holodomor: The Soviet starvation of Ukraine, 75 years later". The Weekly Standard. Retrieved 1 November 2015.
11:08, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
Survey
- No: The concept "Modern Denial" isn't defined anywhere. There is no source which calls Coplon a "Holodomor denier" or anything like it. The only source cited is a journalist (Cathy Young) who does not call Coplon a "denier". Young is not an expert, and her assertion is flatly inconsistent with the text of Coplon's article (
"By general consensus, Stalin was partially responsible."
). If Coplon is labeled a "denier" based on this source, J. Arch Getty (who is also criticized by Young in the same breath) should also be labeled one, and he is much much more significant than Coplon. One of the few scholarly sources mentioning Coplon I found was this, (which is quite critical of Coplon and Getty), refers to Coplon simply as "author". It labels neither Getty nor Coplon as a denier. The Soviet authorities are the ones referred to as "deniers". Jeff Coplon is alive, so WP:BLP applies as well. Kingsindian ♝♚ 11:08, 8 November 2015 (UTC) - Yes. In the quoted source Cathy Young describes Coplon as a modern-day follower of well known Holodomor denier Walter Duranty and she uses term "Holodomor denial" in her paper. Therefore, the inclusion is consistent with the source and does not represent WP:OR in my opinion. Yes, one could reasonably argue that Coplon is someone so unnotable that his views should not be mentioned anywhere, however I think that Cathy Young is sufficiently notable to use her article for sourcing here. Arch Getty is mostly known as a denier of Stalinist crimes in general (including Stalin being responsible for the Great Purge and Holodomor), rather than specifically for Holodomor denial.
- P.S. This has nothing to do with BLP violations, and even not a negative material about a living person. If someone (like Coplon) holds a view that the claims by Ukrainians and many others about the famine being created by the Communist regime "was meant to justify U.S. imperialism and whitewash Ukrainian collaboration with the Nazis", it is his right to have such view. This is something he openly tells in his publication, but we should cite 3rd party source (Cathy Young) to avoid WP:OR. (My very best wishes (talk) 15:03, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
- No I think a version of this can and probably should be included, but not in the form presented above. First it should not have its own heading. It should be included as a paragraph or even better part of a paragraph under the Tottle heading. Also it says it inspired a "number of other articles", but only one is mentioned so this should be reworded or more examples found. We don't need to rely on secondary sources to present this information, primary ones are fine as long as we don't try and interpret the information, so I don't see any harm in saying exactly what he says. This is probably more important when the secondary source seems to have some degree of political motivation. I think inclusion of Coplon saying that "Stalin was partially responsible" would add balance to Youngs comments. Also the middle and last sentence proposed above is pretty much directly lifted from the article so needs to be changed in any case. AIRcorn (talk) 05:37, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- That would be wrong because "Stalin was partially responsible" is not the proper summary or the point of the publication by Coplon. His main idea is reflected in the title In Search of a SOVIET HOLOCAUST. A 55-Year-Old Famine Feeds the Right. And saying something like "Nazi were partially responsible for the Holocaust" would still be a denial. Any comments by 3rd parties on the subject like that would be "political", so Young is a fine 3rd party source. I agree that quoting the original paper by Copmlon (as in old version) may also be fine, but only if this is done properly. My very best wishes (talk) 13:51, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- So, this is now fixed in line with you suggestion: to include something that Coplon is actually saying. My very best wishes (talk) 16:56, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
- That would be wrong because "Stalin was partially responsible" is not the proper summary or the point of the publication by Coplon. His main idea is reflected in the title In Search of a SOVIET HOLOCAUST. A 55-Year-Old Famine Feeds the Right. And saying something like "Nazi were partially responsible for the Holocaust" would still be a denial. Any comments by 3rd parties on the subject like that would be "political", so Young is a fine 3rd party source. I agree that quoting the original paper by Copmlon (as in old version) may also be fine, but only if this is done properly. My very best wishes (talk) 13:51, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- Yes provisionally, this is a question of weight and phrasing as much as yes/no. I don't see the need to define 'denial', the definitions apt to each individual of specifically to what extent and what aspects they are questioning the 'general view' are within/should be within the text of each individual. Whether a less problematic section title would help, I am not sure, since the whole article is about 'denial. I endorse the first part of Aircorn's post. Pincrete (talk) 21:40, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- Yes This is good material. Cathy Young's piece is excellent. The reader will find the right sources with this inclusion, and will be able to draw her own conclusion. SageRad (talk) 00:08, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
Discussion
There is a discussion here. Further comments can be added below. Kingsindian ♝♚ 11:08, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
@My very best wishes: Where exactly does Young call Getty and Coplon modern day followers of Duranty? I could not find any phrasing in the article like this. Kingsindian ♝♚ 10:24, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
- It tells: "Meanwhile, the famine remains little known in the West, despite efforts by the Ukrainian diaspora. Indeed, the West has its own inglorious history with regard to the famine, starting with the deliberate cover-up by Pulitzer Prize-winning New York Times correspondent Walter Duranty. In the late 1980s, the famine gained new visibility thanks to Robert Conquest's Harvest of Sorrow: Soviet Collectivization and the Terror-Famine (1987) and the TV documentary Harvest of Despair, aired in the United States and Canada. A backlash from the left was quick to follow. Revisionist Sovietologist J. Arch Getty accused Conquest of parroting the propaganda of "exiled nationalists." And in January 1988, the Village Voice ran a lengthy essay by Jeff Coplon (now a contributing editor at New York magazine) titled "In Search of a Soviet Holocaust: A 55-Year-Old Famine Feeds the Right." Coplon sneered at "the prevailing vogue of anti-Stalinism" and dismissed as absurd the idea that the famine had been created by the Communist regime. Such talk, he asserted, was meant to justify U.S. imperialism and whitewash Ukrainian collaboration with the Nazis. " My very best wishes (talk) 14:47, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
- You could have just said: "it is my interpretation of the article". Kingsindian ♝♚ 15:01, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
- No, this is something she tells. She does not call them "followers of Duranty". She describes them as followers of Duranty. I think the meaning of the text is very much clear, especially for someone familiar with the subject. And remember, it was not me who included Coplon into this page in 2007. People who did it knew this subject better than me. But I am ready to agree with any outcome of this RfC. My very best wishes (talk) 16:01, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
- Ultimately, the introduction of the content was in order to provide a context for an uninitiated reader to comprehend the evolution of the denial debate, bearing in mind the fact of there having been a famine having been suppressed by the Soviet Union, and perpetuated as good coin by the Western media, for many decades. Had there been a Wikipedia prior the disintegration of the Soviet Union, suggesting that a little bit of a famine (outside of a little bit of a drought hiccup) would have been tossed out as WP:FRINGE. Context and a reticence to let go of 'traditional historical ideas' has played a major part in international perception on behalf of scholars and journalists, remembering that journalists have acted as the 'voice' of selected scholars where evidence has had ample time for the NKVD to clean house (60 years of it, in fact). --Iryna Harpy (talk) 03:47, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
- @Iryna Harpy: The issue is that "evolution of the denial debate" is nowhere defined. And where does "denial" end and legitimate scholarship begin? These are not matters to be decided by Wikipedia editors. Listing Coplon in the "Modern Denial" section is simply another way of calling him a "denier". That should not be done absent explicit evidence, preferably a lot of evidence. The fact that Getty, (who is a major Sovietologist, who has published a book with Yale University Press in 2013) can be labeled a denier based on the same argument is simply another indication of how the whole thing is absurdly WP:OR. Kingsindian ♝♚ 04:18, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
- Sigh, this is a circular argument already qualified for you by My very best wishes. Both are cited by Cathy Young. You say that you can't see it, therefore it's a projection of her intent (or how she perceives them in the context of her article). Both MVBW and I read it as being so deeply implicit to the article that it's explicit. I doubt that there is any footage of a knock-down brawl on Jerry Springer with her yelling, "You're a Holodomor denier" at either of them. It seems that you won't feel convinced until you encounter anything so absolutely explicit. Honestly, there's no point in going over and over the same ground because we're going to have to agree to disagree without malice or disrespect for each other's positions. I think we should leave this for the RfC before we all need a couple of aspirins and a lie down. Cheers! --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:15, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
- I think it is perfectly legitimate to expect someone to be called a "Holodomor denier" or something like it in sources if one is to be labeled one on Wikipedia. This is a matter of basic decency, not to mention WP:BLP. Compare the people mentioned at Holocaust denial, the references are to court cases, historians, scholars etc. labeling them, instead of Wikipedia editors. But, as you state, it is useless arguing about this more. Kingsindian ♝♚ 06:04, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
- I think you would nor argue if someone was described as a Holocaust denier for telling that Nazi were not responsible for it. But that is what Coplon is telling: Soviet authorities were not responsible for Holodomor. My very best wishes (talk) 13:29, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- I think it is perfectly legitimate to expect someone to be called a "Holodomor denier" or something like it in sources if one is to be labeled one on Wikipedia. This is a matter of basic decency, not to mention WP:BLP. Compare the people mentioned at Holocaust denial, the references are to court cases, historians, scholars etc. labeling them, instead of Wikipedia editors. But, as you state, it is useless arguing about this more. Kingsindian ♝♚ 06:04, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
- Sigh, this is a circular argument already qualified for you by My very best wishes. Both are cited by Cathy Young. You say that you can't see it, therefore it's a projection of her intent (or how she perceives them in the context of her article). Both MVBW and I read it as being so deeply implicit to the article that it's explicit. I doubt that there is any footage of a knock-down brawl on Jerry Springer with her yelling, "You're a Holodomor denier" at either of them. It seems that you won't feel convinced until you encounter anything so absolutely explicit. Honestly, there's no point in going over and over the same ground because we're going to have to agree to disagree without malice or disrespect for each other's positions. I think we should leave this for the RfC before we all need a couple of aspirins and a lie down. Cheers! --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:15, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
- @Iryna Harpy: The issue is that "evolution of the denial debate" is nowhere defined. And where does "denial" end and legitimate scholarship begin? These are not matters to be decided by Wikipedia editors. Listing Coplon in the "Modern Denial" section is simply another way of calling him a "denier". That should not be done absent explicit evidence, preferably a lot of evidence. The fact that Getty, (who is a major Sovietologist, who has published a book with Yale University Press in 2013) can be labeled a denier based on the same argument is simply another indication of how the whole thing is absurdly WP:OR. Kingsindian ♝♚ 04:18, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
- Ultimately, the introduction of the content was in order to provide a context for an uninitiated reader to comprehend the evolution of the denial debate, bearing in mind the fact of there having been a famine having been suppressed by the Soviet Union, and perpetuated as good coin by the Western media, for many decades. Had there been a Wikipedia prior the disintegration of the Soviet Union, suggesting that a little bit of a famine (outside of a little bit of a drought hiccup) would have been tossed out as WP:FRINGE. Context and a reticence to let go of 'traditional historical ideas' has played a major part in international perception on behalf of scholars and journalists, remembering that journalists have acted as the 'voice' of selected scholars where evidence has had ample time for the NKVD to clean house (60 years of it, in fact). --Iryna Harpy (talk) 03:47, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
- No, this is something she tells. She does not call them "followers of Duranty". She describes them as followers of Duranty. I think the meaning of the text is very much clear, especially for someone familiar with the subject. And remember, it was not me who included Coplon into this page in 2007. People who did it knew this subject better than me. But I am ready to agree with any outcome of this RfC. My very best wishes (talk) 16:01, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
- You could have just said: "it is my interpretation of the article". Kingsindian ♝♚ 15:01, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
Comment I'm writing this while also suffering from irynaharpyitis (drooping eyelids), however my initial reaction is to note that the section is called 'denial', not 'deniers'. To that extent it is legitimate to note any questioning of the generally accepted version. Just as other classic 'denials' include those who question details, not simply deny the whole event (Srebenica denial includes those who question the scale, those who question massacre/simply war, question premeditation, and those who do not deny the event, but deny 'genocide' is apt … ditto holocaust denial, did AH know?). How exactly this should be phrased, and whether the proposed text is justified, I would need to be more awake to express an opinion on, but including the info seems legit. Pincrete (talk) 23:37, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- I removed the Young comment because whoever put it in just copy pasted it from her article. She actually says very little of substance about Coplon himself. She just describes what he says in his article instead of actually critiquing it, so I am not sure how to present this in this article. AIRcorn (talk) 05:57, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- She does not tell anything about Coplon, but she tells about his paper on Holodomor denial.My very best wishes (talk) 13:52, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- @Aircorn: Taking a minor tract of Cathy Young's article (complete with INTEXT attribution) is not a copyright issue. As has been noted, if you are concerned that it breaches COPYVIO, it needs to be addressed at the correct venue. As regards placing Coplon's position under the Tottle heading, Coplon has been published in his own right (i.e., Village Voice), therefore discussing him as a subsidiary of Tottle is equally OR as his writings/opinions have been drawn on in their own right. As an aside, I just want to add, "Oh, my aching head." --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:40, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- This is the correct place. It is literally taken word-from-word from the article so at the very least is a direct quote and should be presented as such. Since the lifted text contains two sentences and a quote itself this would not only be the height of laziness, but very bad form. Also it is the only two sentences in her entire paper that apply to Coplon's article so it is not a minor tract, but the only tract. As to the heading the very first sentence says that Coplon was influenced by Tottle so it is linked or something needs to change. You even have a paragraph under Tottle saying "other similar writings". Original research is being thrown around here like candy from a lolly scramble without too much understanding of how the concept works. AIRcorn (talk) 15:47, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
- OK, let's fix it. And I agree with one of your suggestions above: to include direct quotations from works by Coplon. However his main idea was not about Stalin, but about Holodomor being used as propaganda to feed "the right". My very best wishes (talk) 16:32, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
- This is the correct place. It is literally taken word-from-word from the article so at the very least is a direct quote and should be presented as such. Since the lifted text contains two sentences and a quote itself this would not only be the height of laziness, but very bad form. Also it is the only two sentences in her entire paper that apply to Coplon's article so it is not a minor tract, but the only tract. As to the heading the very first sentence says that Coplon was influenced by Tottle so it is linked or something needs to change. You even have a paragraph under Tottle saying "other similar writings". Original research is being thrown around here like candy from a lolly scramble without too much understanding of how the concept works. AIRcorn (talk) 15:47, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
- @Aircorn: Taking a minor tract of Cathy Young's article (complete with INTEXT attribution) is not a copyright issue. As has been noted, if you are concerned that it breaches COPYVIO, it needs to be addressed at the correct venue. As regards placing Coplon's position under the Tottle heading, Coplon has been published in his own right (i.e., Village Voice), therefore discussing him as a subsidiary of Tottle is equally OR as his writings/opinions have been drawn on in their own right. As an aside, I just want to add, "Oh, my aching head." --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:40, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- She does not tell anything about Coplon, but she tells about his paper on Holodomor denial.My very best wishes (talk) 13:52, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
To all: Firstly please dont change the text in the middle of a rfc otherwise how will people know? let it run for the full duration. Second please keep in mind that this is the page for denial and not for general discusion of the holodomor. There is already a page which discusses the genocide question and the causes of the famine. Kingsindian ♝♚ 01:56, 14 November 2015 (UTC)