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45 Grave formed in 1979, Hardcore is a prodominently 80s movement, Dinah also calls 45 Grave "heavy metal" sometimes, but it doesn't say Deathrock is an offshoot of Metal... |
45 Grave formed in 1979, Hardcore is a prodominently 80s movement, Dinah also calls 45 Grave "heavy metal" sometimes, but it doesn't say Deathrock is an offshoot of Metal... |
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I read in an early interview with Rozz Williams, how he considered the Black Flag and other hardcore bands and fans as "fake punks" who used to beat up punks and call them "faggots". There definetly seems to be some friction between the two, the way I see it Deathrock is more Punk rock, and Horror Punk is more Hardcore. - [[User:Deathrocker|Deathrocker]] 08:43, 10 January 2006 (UTC) |
I read in an early interview with Rozz Williams, how he considered the Black Flag and other hardcore bands and fans as "fake punks" who used to beat up punks and call them "faggots". There definetly seems to be some friction between the two, the way I see it Deathrock is more Punk rock, and Horror Punk is more Hardcore. - [[User:Deathrocker|Deathrocker]] 08:43, 10 January 2006 (UTC) |
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:Black Flag started around '77, so they were definitely around in '79 and able to be an influence to other SoCal bands. I'm not familiar with animosity between Hardcore fans and Punks. However, I remember very well the animosity between Metalheads and Punks in the late 70's/early 80's. I've included Hardcore as one of the influences because of the Dinah Cancer interview and the Everything2.com link which states that "The L.A. death rock movement (with bands such as .45 Grave and Christian Death) also lent their hardcore, frequently surrealist and dadaist-influenced sounds to the early movement". I've heard Dinah say that she was surprised that Metal kids were influenced by 45 Grave, but I haven't heard her say that 45 Grave was a Metal band. I view Dinah's choice of using 'Punk/Hardcore' as a label as essentially similar to people in the NYC scene using 'Punk/New Wave' as a label to describe a group of bands which sometimes overlapped sub-genre wise - sometimes the differentiation was arbitrary, sometimes the band drifted from one sound more towards the other, sometimes they managed to walk a tight rope between the two, etc. |
:Black Flag started around '77, so they were definitely around in '79 and able to be an influence to other SoCal bands. I'm not familiar with animosity between Hardcore fans and Punks. However, I remember very well the animosity between Metalheads and Punks in the late 70's/early 80's. I've included Hardcore as one of the influences because of the Dinah Cancer interview and the Everything2.com link which states that "The L.A. death rock movement (with bands such as .45 Grave and Christian Death) also lent their hardcore, frequently surrealist and dadaist-influenced sounds to the early movement". I've heard Dinah say that she was surprised that Metal kids were influenced by 45 Grave, but I haven't heard her say that 45 Grave was a Metal band. I view Dinah's choice of using 'Punk/Hardcore' as a label as essentially similar to people in the NYC scene using 'Punk/New Wave' as a label to describe a group of bands which sometimes overlapped sub-genre wise - sometimes the differentiation was arbitrary, sometimes the band drifted from one sound more towards the other, sometimes they managed to walk a tight rope between the two, etc. |
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Point is, the article needs to make some distinction musically. At the moment, the only difference it makes are 'We are a bunch of elitests'. Sorry, but thats the way it is. [[User:Leyasu|Leyasu]] 20:16, 12 January 2006 (UTC) |
Point is, the article needs to make some distinction musically. At the moment, the only difference it makes are 'We are a bunch of elitests'. Sorry, but thats the way it is. [[User:Leyasu|Leyasu]] 20:16, 12 January 2006 (UTC) |
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: I'm sorry - no verifiable sources, no changes. Otherwise it's only an opinion, nothing more, nothing less. And I will not discuss this with you any further. I checked the discussion page for your account and have come to the conclusion that you just like to argue with the editors of other articles. Please go find someone else to argue with, I'm not willing to play that game. [[User:FilmGal|FilmGal]] 01:31, 13 January 2006 (UTC) |
Revision as of 01:31, 13 January 2006
![]() | Music/Music genres task force Unassessed | ||||||
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List of bands by Genre
Wiki has a nice collection of bands listed by Genre here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_musicians
I copied and pasted the list of bands from this article to a Deathrock page, and seperated bands by Classic and Modern. I move that we remove the list of bands from this Deathrock article and instead provide a link to the above page & list.
Seconds?
- Sounds good to me Lyo 19:47, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Inclusion of 'Deathrock friendly' bands
I question the band list. Should earlier British and worldwide bands with a 'death rock friendly' (for want of a better word) sound, but who were contemporaries with (if not indeed predecessors of) the early death rock scene but not part of it, be included here? Should they be retroactively assimilated into a genre/movement?
I'm thinking specifically about listing such as the Virgin Prunes, the Birthday Party, Sex Gang Children, etc. I don't believe any of these would have thought of themselves as 'death rock' bands, because that wasn't a term in currency in their respective scenes.
Or we can simply state that the list includes similar music even if the band wasn't 'death rock' per se, but was a similar 'post-punk' sound? —Morven 20:48, Jun 29, 2004 (UTC)
- I was about to say pretty much the same thing - including the Birthday Party and Sex Gang Children here is retconning at best. Criteria for inclusion: 1. Clearly part of the US death rock scene as descended from LA in the late seventies; 2. self-labelled; 3. maybe notable common categorisation (on the level of listing the Sisters of Mercy as goth). I don't have time, but an article tweak and recategorisation is needed.
- NB: there's an increasing number of goth bands labeling themselves death rock instead - e.g. the stuff Nik Ransom puts on at Dead & Buried in London of late (Devilish Presley, Zombina and the Skeletones, etc) - David Gerard 23:53, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)
NPOV?
This article is extremely one-sided, and shold probablly be cleaned up confirm to NPOV. Avador 03:34, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
How is this article "extremely one-sided"? I've spent untold hours looking up information on the internet and soliciting opinions and getting advice from the deathrock.com forum members to expand on and improve the accuracy of this article. If you're trying to be helpful, then please make whatever changes you feel are necessary to the article to make it more neutral, but please do not sit on the sidelines and feel free to criticize others' hard work. (It's also very hard to take someone's literary criticisms seriously when they've misspelled words.) FilmGal 03:50, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
- Oh, everyone misspells words occasionally. The bigger issue is that Avador doesn't substantiate the claim that it extremely one-sided or offer any hints as to why it is "extremely one-sided." Until Avador can do that, then I don't see why anyone would be inclined to agree with him or her. Personally, I don't see anything about the article that is one-sided. --Jakob Huneycutt 15:10, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Deathrock not Death Rock
Deathrock is the more commonly used variation of the name, does anyone have anything against this article been renamed "Deathrock"? - Deathrocker 02:53, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
- Yes i do. Because outside of your mention just now, ive never heard of it mentioned as Deathrock, it has always been Death Rock. Leyasu 09:38, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
- I have no problems with the article being renamed 'Deathrock' since it is the more common of the two variations, esp. for people in the deathrock scene. Plus the main websites for information on deathrock use the single word variation. FilmGal 04:05, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Hardcore influence and 1970s development
There are three problems with eliminating the reference to Hardcore as one of the parents of deathrock. First, there is the Dinah Cancer interview, she specifically states that deathrock was an offshoot of punk and hardcore in LA. Second, early hardcore is still being played in deathrock clubs (if you check the list of hardcore punk bands you'll see some familiar names - a few of the early bands we consider as either deathrock or deathrock friendly are listed there as hardcore bands). Third, I can still hear the hardcore influence in some modern deathrock bands).
As far as dropping the reference to deathrock emerging in the late 1970s, two of the most prominent early deathrock bands, 45 Grave and Christian Death, we founded in 1979. It seems silly to me to say deathrock began in the early 1980s when these two bands existed in 1979. And Theatre of Ice (while not a terribly well known deathrock band) was also formed in 1979. - FilmGal 04:30, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
- Main clause of this problem, which is a common mistake many make. 1 band doesnt define a genre, nor do a bands influences define a genre. Ill use Gothic Metal as an example here.
- If Death Rock was considered Hardcore Punk because one person says it is, then Gothic Metal would be considered every genre on Earth, because of different people claiming different things in Haste.
- Second, if Death Rock was considered Hardcore Punk because some Hardcore Punk bands play at venue's typical of Death Rock bands, then Gothic Metal could be considered any form of Metal or Rock music. It could even be considered Death Rock itself.
- Without being spitefull about saying it, what you hear is not nessecarily what ohters of hundreds more profound in musical instruments here. Also, if Death Rock is considered Hardcore Punk because some bands take influence from Hardcore Punk, then Gothic Metal could be considered Jazz or Synth Pop, simply because some Gothic Metal bands take influence from these genres.
I hope you see the point. As for the 1970's, add them back in if needs be, i simply reverted the whole edit out of habit. Leyasu 08:51, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
- I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying - I'm not saying that Deathrock = Hardcore Punk. Deathrock had multiple influences and two of them are Punk and Hardcore. Unless you can find a source which directly contradicts Dinah Cancer's comments, I'm including Hardcore as one of the influences and adding another link which states "The L.A. death rock movement (with bands such as .45 Grave and Christian Death) also lent their hardcore, frequently surrealist and dadaist-influenced sounds to the early movement." FilmGal 09:28, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
- Sorry they darling, i missinterpretted what you was saying. I thought you was saying that Death Rock is a form of Hardcore Punk. My mistake darling, apologies for the confusion caused. Leyasu 10:00, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
45 Grave formed in 1979, Hardcore is a prodominently 80s movement, Dinah also calls 45 Grave "heavy metal" sometimes, but it doesn't say Deathrock is an offshoot of Metal...
I read in an early interview with Rozz Williams, how he considered the Black Flag and other hardcore bands and fans as "fake punks" who used to beat up punks and call them "faggots". There definetly seems to be some friction between the two, the way I see it Deathrock is more Punk rock, and Horror Punk is more Hardcore. - Deathrocker 08:43, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
- Black Flag started around '77, so they were definitely around in '79 and able to be an influence to other SoCal bands. I'm not familiar with animosity between Hardcore fans and Punks. However, I remember very well the animosity between Metalheads and Punks in the late 70's/early 80's. I've included Hardcore as one of the influences because of the Dinah Cancer interview and the Everything2.com link which states that "The L.A. death rock movement (with bands such as .45 Grave and Christian Death) also lent their hardcore, frequently surrealist and dadaist-influenced sounds to the early movement". I've heard Dinah say that she was surprised that Metal kids were influenced by 45 Grave, but I haven't heard her say that 45 Grave was a Metal band. I view Dinah's choice of using 'Punk/Hardcore' as a label as essentially similar to people in the NYC scene using 'Punk/New Wave' as a label to describe a group of bands which sometimes overlapped sub-genre wise - sometimes the differentiation was arbitrary, sometimes the band drifted from one sound more towards the other, sometimes they managed to walk a tight rope between the two, etc.
- I would be reluctant to include Metal as an influence on Deathrock because Deathrock bands generally don't cite Metal bands as an influence and because there's enough confusion between Deathrock and Death Metal without creating more confusion. A strong Metal influence would also have meant that Deathrock would not have been able to merge with the Batcave sound and to form Gothic Rock - they would have sounded too different. Punk was definitely a much stronger influence than Hardcore though - perhaps that needs to be clarified in the article. FilmGal 09:15, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
You see, the problem here becomes, your terms dont actually draw a distinction between these genres. Horror-Punk, Goth-Punk, Death Rock, Gothic Rock, We Wear Halloween Costumes Rock... so on, so forth. Looking at the articles, most people agree that the articles are 99.9% overlap, the only difference being elitists and neoglism of terms in genres. Usually, seperated by band and clubs, and region.
I suggest, you have a look at all the articles, and enhance by far, the musicial differences mentioned in the article, as at the minute, the articles seem like neoglism. Leyasu 09:33, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
- Leyasu, you may not be aware of it but your comments, particularly the one about wearing "Halloween Costumes", are coming across as condescending and patronizing. Furthermore, you make many claims but do not supply links to any articles on the internet which would substantiate what you say. For example, can you supply a link to an article on the internet which states that Deathrockers engage in elitism? As far as your claim that the term Deathrock is a neologism, surely you must have read the Deathrock article and have seen that the phrase "death rock and roll" can be traced back to the 50's, and that the term "death rock" can be traced back to 1979. FilmGal 19:51, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
I was not asked to provide any sources on the internet, when i simply cite most anyone involved in the so-called death rock and goth commuinities.
Also, are you familiar with pet names? Batcave for instance, is a pet name. It refers to bands from several genres who are linked by one thing. In this case, playing at the Batcave club. Cross-Genre Refrences in metal are the same. This 'Death Rock', comes across purely as a pet name for bands. Then, the term death rocker, comes across as neoglism to seperate Goths from the 80's to those of the modern day, when in actuallity, your both pretty much the same thing.
Point is, the article needs to make some distinction musically. At the moment, the only difference it makes are 'We are a bunch of elitests'. Sorry, but thats the way it is. Leyasu 20:16, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
- I'm sorry - no verifiable sources, no changes. Otherwise it's only an opinion, nothing more, nothing less. And I will not discuss this with you any further. I checked the discussion page for your account and have come to the conclusion that you just like to argue with the editors of other articles. Please go find someone else to argue with, I'm not willing to play that game. FilmGal 01:31, 13 January 2006 (UTC)