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[[User:Tommysun|Tommy Mandel]] 07:40, 25 November 2006 (UTC) |
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You are not talking from a position of knowledge when you give us your opinion about the balls of light. I won't go into the details here, but one of the videographers in England who went from believer to "they probably are all hoaxed" wrote on his website, "But the balls of light are real, I have seen them myself." |
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Mythology and TV
I think we could get some nice TV clip? or picture of a UFO making a crop circle! --CyclePat 14:40, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
- The only video I know of showing a UFO making a crop circle was a cleverly hoaxed video, as pointed out in Colin Andrew's book. I've heard of another video showing a ball of light hovering above a circle and then moving toward an approaching tractor and as it passes over, the farmer turns his head to follow it. The farmer says his family thought he was nuts until the videographer showed up two days later with the video. There is one TV recording of a crop circle being made, but the fotage was stolen and never has been found since. Most TV footage is on hoaxing the researchers, pseudoscientists like to take these hoaxing of researchers as proof that they are all hoaxed.
Aren't you the admin I wrote to asking for help? He never even replied. Then I wrote to your group, and they never replied. No one helped me until Addhoc, the hall monitor, came along. So why are you here now? Mythology and TV...oh, I get it now.
Tommy Mandel 23:12, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
- I'm fairly sure that's advocate, not hall monitor... Addhoc 13:41, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
- Darn, now everyone knows...
Tommy Mandel 06:38, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Lets work on this together
Bill and Bob, I don't feel right doing this all alone. I really would like to work on it together with youse guys. I've got a lot of ideas, but I would feel better if you felt the same about them as I do. For example I got permission to upload a good picture, I think we can state the 25 primary observations in one sentence, and go into detail about just a few of them. I'd like to outline the extraordinary observations such as Hawkins theorems, and maybe create a good resource center, ALL the websites for example. Let me say again that I think the official scientific POV is a big question mark. Even Peter Sorensen, the videographer who eventually changed his mind on the whole thing tempers his conclusion with "they PROBABLY are all hoaxed," which is probably the closest we can come to a conclusion, and it does leave the door open just enough so that there is a question still to be answered. I don't see why this couldn't be handled just like a court trial, where one side introduces evidence for, and then the other side introduces evidence against and then the jury (the reader) decides for himself. One thing tho, those balls of light. Seems like everyone, even the hoaxers, has seen them...
Tommy Mandel 03:59, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I editied out the POV holding that mainstream science believes crop circles are of human origin. The comment without a source is original research and violates NPOV. This was tagged requesting a source bu none has been received. If "mainstream science" is that group of certified scientists knowledgeable about a field, then the mainstream view is that the cause has not been determined. Tommy Mandel 04:31, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- Let me repeat myself "I editied out the POV holding that mainstream science believes crop circles are of human origin. The comment without a source is original research and violates NPOV. This was tagged requesting a source bu none has been received. If "mainstream science" is that group of certified scientists knowledgeable about a field, then the mainstream view is that the cause has not been determined.
Tommy, I would like to give you a hypothetical scenario, and I would like you to comment on it. Let us say that the vast majority of scientists (or for that matter, members of the public) consider that Father Christmas is a myth, a story made up by parents to tell their children. After all, there is good evidence that at least some parents make up the story. However, let us imagine that there is one scientist (let's call him Doctor X.) maintains that there is a Father Christmas, and that he has the evidence to show for it. His work, however, receives little to no attention in journals such as Scientific American, New Scientist, Nature, or the Proceedings of the International Union of Pure and Applied Physics. Dr. X seems to be the only person researching Father Christmas. Perhaps we can grant him supporters by imagining that Dr. X is not on his own: Mr Y BA and Ms Z (BSc Hons) support his conclusions. By extension of your reasoning above, we can comfortably state that 'mainstream science believes in Father Christmas', as the only persons knowledgeable about the field all say he exists. --BillC 13:58, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- Note also that in this scenario, it would be very difficult to source the statement about mainstream science's belief concerning Father Christmas, because it's so obvious that nobody prints it. A similar situation exists with crop circles - their man-made-ness is so evident that you can't find papers in legitimate journals discussing it; who's going to devote part of their career to proving the obvious, unless there's a reason to doubt the obvious (which there isn't, no matter how many bent straws are pointed to). - DavidWBrooks 15:41, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- To begin with the analogy does not merit discussion, we are not talking about subjective evidence, we are talking about objective evidence. Secondly, it is clear that you have not researched the topic, otherwise you would be able to telll me about the journal articles which do exist. Levengood was a biophysicist who devoted part of his life, he has two articles in journals about crop circles and has fifty others. Gerald Hawkins was a famous astronomer who has devoted part of his life to the study. Elitjo Haselhoff is a physicist who has devoted part of his life to the study. Can you name one scientist/study which males the testable claim that ALL circles are manmade? There isn't even a book out saying that. 205.188.117.13 21:58, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- It doesn't say they are all man-made, it says that scientific opinion is that they are of either human or natural origin. If you can find me any references from a reputable journal supporting the idea of anything other than human or natural origin I'd be pleased to read them. Guy 11:08, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
- I agree that the mainstream science argument is not verifiable, even though I believe that mainstream science does in fact believe that circles are all man made. I would like to ask this question, though: "Are there any works regarding crop circles published in reputable, peer-reviewed journals?" iamthebob 21:43, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- Not that I have been able to find, through public online sources. It's not someting that a legitimate scientist is going to spend much time or money on, apparently. - DavidWBrooks 21:58, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- If you weren't already aware of it, you might find this of interest: Grassi F, Cocheo C, Russo P: Balls of Light: The Questionable Science of Crop Circles Journal of Scientific Exploration, Vol. 19, No. 2, pp. 159–170, 2005 --BillC 23:21, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- I don't think that could really be considered a peer-reviewed journal, in the usual meaning of the term. We'd really love a couple in Science or Nature or something like that. - 23:58, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- If you weren't already aware of it, you might find this of interest: Grassi F, Cocheo C, Russo P: Balls of Light: The Questionable Science of Crop Circles Journal of Scientific Exploration, Vol. 19, No. 2, pp. 159–170, 2005 --BillC 23:21, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- Not that I have been able to find, through public online sources. It's not someting that a legitimate scientist is going to spend much time or money on, apparently. - DavidWBrooks 21:58, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- PHYSIOLOGIA PLANTARUNI 92: 356-363.1994
- ISSN 0031-9317
Anatomical anomalies in crop formation plants
- W. C. Levengood
- Levengood. W.C. 1994. Anatomical anomalies in crop formation plants. - Physiol. Plant. 92: 356-363.
- Both of you are making statements supporting your position that are false.
- There is no such thing as "mainstream science" I don't know where that word comes from, but it is not a scientific term by definition.
- It is, by definition incorrect. Any scientist worth his salt will not form opinions on subject matter that he is ignorant of. A biologist is not qualified to state conclusions applying to physics. Science is not a doctrine, rather it is a methodology. Opinion is not one of those scientific methodologies. So if a scientist states his opinion on something that he is ignorant of, then he is not using the scientific method and has no more "authority" than any other member of the public. Scientific papers do not get published which uses data such as "the majority of others believe this or that." I( wouldn't be surprised if "mainstream science" came from Wikipedia editors.
- So your scenario has a flaw in it by presupposing "mainstream science" actually exists. It cannot exist in the scientific sense. Nor should we present it as if it does.
- Obviously all three of you are presenting a POV by your comments. Stating that mainstream science, when no such science exists, without providing a scientific source for your statements, as an opinion held by knowledgeable scientists sounds like pseudoscience to me. - 205.188.117.13 22:01, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
For the record...From Wikipedia NPOV page
Explanation of the neutral point of view
The neutral point of view is a means of dealing with conflicting views. The policy requires that, where there are or have been conflicting views, these should be presented fairly. None of the views should be given undue weight or asserted as being the truth, and all significant published points of view are to be presented, not just the most popular one. It should also not be asserted that the most popular view or some sort of intermediate view among the different views is the correct one. Readers are left to form their own opinions.
In review:
It should also not be asserted that the most popular view or some sort of intermediate view among the different views is the correct one.
At any rate both sides are to fairly presented without any WikiTalk slanting the article one way or the other.
- Well, I give up with arguing with you Tommy. There really is no use—I'm obviously not going to convince you of anything. iamthebob 22:55, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- That comment is regarding your views towards "mainstream science" and whether crop circle is considered a science; thank you for the journal article though. iamthebob 22:58, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- Would you please buy a book on crop circles and read it? May I suggest Haselhoff's book because you can read that in one evening. You can see how science operates from his book and you wil be able to tell the difference between fantasy and fact. The irony of this discussion, you say that science believes all crop circles are hoaxed, but are unable to provide any scientific study with that conclusion. You say that mainstream science...but you completely ignore the three mainstream scientists who have studied the phenonmenon.
What is it that you are trying to convince me of? That most people believe that crop circles are all hoaxed? Even if that were true it would only be your original research/synthesis and clearly violates NPOV which states that the editor must not slant his writing one way or the other. The article must not decide for the reader what is true or not. As editors, we can only report what has been reported elsewhere. For sources we can only depend on the literature that exists in the field. For reliable information we can only dekpend on those who have studied the phenomenon. We cannot step outside and take a poll and based on that poll slant the article whichever way. If there in fact was a poll taken, and that poll was reported in the literature, then and only then could an editor report that the poll was taken and the results are such and such. I doubt that a scientist dunded and conducted a poll of "mainstream science" and the "public" and reported his results in a peer review journal.
You guys must think I am stupid. We are not talking about bent straw, we are talking about the measurable crystalline structure of clay found inside the circle which when compared to the clay found outside the circle indicates a replicable and significant difference, a difference that cannot be produced by any known technology. The increase in the atomic order is accomplished by nature with intense heat and high pressures and a long time. The changes found are an objective fact. They are not Santa Clause stuff. What caused them is an open question with no scientific answer. THe scientists report honestly that they do not know what caused them. They have ideas, and Doug and Dave are not among them.
You must think I am ignorant, but it is clear to me that all of you have not studied that which you are claiming to know so much about. In science it is called prior research. You know so much because you apriori dismiss the counterview. You ignore the evidence and then say there is no evidence. And then you say that, because there is no evidence, I don't know what I am talking about. At least I have read the literature as much as I could find. Funny, but if you would have read the leterature you would find for yourselves the inconsistencies on both sides.
You must think I am dumb. There is no so called "Mainstream science" it would be called scientism. Maybe scientism is what you really are talking about. Hmmmm?
You must think I am a fool, because I would spend so much time on this article. But it is not the circles that fascinate me, but how they are made. I would be a fool if I paid attention to those who don't know what they are talking about.
Not you Bob, our new armchair philosopher. I understand what you want to say Bob, but in all honesty, mainstream science is not aware of what is going on. And attempts to silence the participants does not help scientific research a single bit.
"It should also not be asserted that the most popular view or some sort of intermediate view among the different views is the correct one".
- It should also not be asserted that a view which is unsupported by peer-reviewed evidence is anything other than fantasy. Feel free to cite the evidence published in reputable peer-reviewed journals for crop circles being of paranormal origin. You are familiar, I take it, with the old adage that "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence?" This is a textbook example. The only "evidence" presented in favour appears to come from people who had already made up their minds that the origin is supernatural. How many previously sceptical scientists have they convinced with this evidence? Thus far it looks to me as if all this gets an official "yeah, right". Guy 11:05, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
- It is not true that a view which is unsupported by peer-reviewed evidence is anything other than fantasy. Verification and reputable sources are all that s required. It is not up to us to decide what is true and what is not true. Clearly, Guy, you haven't read the literature, if you had you would not be saying things like you do. The papers which do appear in peer reviewed journals do not claim paranormal origin, they claim not by mechanical means. I would like to see your peer reviewed journal article which proves your point, whatever that might be. If you can't come up with one, then what you are telling us is just your opinion which you have every right to hold any way you want to. But if you use your opinion to tell me it is a fact, that is not science. Tommy Mandel 01:19, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
309 kilobytes!
If this Talk gets any bigger, it's going to make my screen fall off the table ... - DavidWBrooks 23:58, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- Archived. Guy 10:54, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
We have to understand that if these crop circals were not man made then it should be some intelligence entity involved.. these designs are quite intresting and complex, so why when it comes to Ball of Light theory, Tommy restrict hisself admiting that either these Balls of lights are also man made, or some unknown not yet declared allien force is.. and if he do not have any proof to present that aliens do exists then he should atleast say that these circals are man made.. untill he finds something against it.. phippi46 15:15, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
- The last time I tried to explain what I thought was going on, they called it mumbo jumbo. What I think has not been published anywhere, so it is just my original research and that should not be in the article. The only thing I am convinced of is that not all of the circles were made by the hoaxers. And that's as far as I go. Personally I would love to know who is pushing those balls of light around. I think I know how it could be done in principle.
There is a big difference between saying "crop circles = aliens, look for the evidence of aliens, here is an anomaly, how do we use that to prove it's aliens", and saying "crop circles = something to look at, mostly hoaxes, let's see if there are any which can be proven not to be hoaxes, and find out what natural phenomenon might have caused them" or words to that effect. The arguments in favour of paranormal or extraterrestrial origin all violate Occam's razor. Guy 15:21, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
- Who said anything about aliens? Occam's razor is a guide, not a law. What are you saying?Tommy Mandel 01:11, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Science of Crop Circles
A study of the scientific evidence
This is an attempt to incorporate within the crop circle article those observations which have been reported by serious investigators in the field and the results of scientific analysis of those observations, using the scientific method. We will use the prevailing literature base for our domain of knowledge.
Scientific Investigators
Dr. Eltjo Hasellhof, a practicing physicist, once employed at Los Alaamos and several Dutch Institutes, presently the senior scientist at a medical imaging company in the U.K., has rigorously investigated the crop circle phenomenon. His findings are published in "Deepening complexity of Crop Circles:" by Eltjo H. Hasellhoff, Ph.D. The title of his dissertation was "Aspects if a Compton Free-Electron Laser". Also published in Physiologia Plantarum 111, vol. 1 (2000): 124. Dispersion of Energies in Wordwide Crop Formations" (Opinions and Comments)
As a good introduction to the phenomenon from the scientific perspective, Dr. Heselhoff writes: Page 128,
"The Facts:" "In the last twenty years. there has been much speculation about different aspects of crop circles. But it takes more than just a little reading to understand where the facts end and where the fiction begins. Personal involvement and investigation, field work, discussion with many people, crucial questions, and much thinking are needed to reveal the true character of the crop circle phenomenon. Unfortunately, much of the public infrmation is not very accurate or even is completely wrong, as a result of ignorance, lack of accuracy or objectivity. or simply evil intent. Although many alleged crop circle properties cannot bear the scrutiny of an objective analysis. some relativly simple observations seem to defy any trivial explanation. Biophysical anomalies, in terms of node leghtening and germination anomalies, are probably number one on this list. The lack of any indication of human presense or mechanical flattening, observed many times in even the most fragile and delicate species of crop, is perhaps somewhat less objective but still good for a second place. The awesome complexity and particularily the hidden geometry in many pictograms at least indicate that this cannot be the result of a simple joke. Even fantastic and extraordinaty observations, in the form of a radient balls of light hovering above a field and creating a crop circle, can fulfill the requirements that "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." This extraordinary evidence was delivered in Chapter Three. The node-length measurements unambiguously showed a perfect symmetry in three different cross sections through the circular imprint, in perfect correlation with the radiation pattern of an electromagnetic point source. This is indeed the required extraordinaty evidence, which at least ought to open our minds to the dozens of other, similar eyewitness accounts, and of course the video material of the flying balls of light. Moreover, since identical findings were accepted for publication in the scientific literature, it is quite legitimate to say that the involvement of balls of light in crop circles formations has by now become a scientifically accepted fact. (3) And there is much more extraordinary evidence, in the form of burn marks on the bird box, delicately draped, undamaged carrot leaves; a virgin circle in a frozen field of snow, dead flies, and much more. Anyone who takes the time to explore and verify all of these findings personall find that the facts are plain: Something very strange is going on." At the conclusion of his report, Dr. Hasehoff presents his own conclusions:
Conclusion one: The suggestion that crop circles are all made by practical jokers with simple flattening tools is by no means sufficient to explain all documented observations.
Conclusion Two: The crop circle phenonmenon is often erroneously ridiculted and much undersestimated in its complexity.
Conclusion Three: The true nature of the crop circle phenonmenon is unknown to the general public.
Conclusion Four: "Those who are unqualified to judge should refrain from comment." (D.G. Terence Meaden)
Conclusion Five: Small radiation sources with an electomagnetic character ("Balls of Light") are directly involved in the creation of crop circles. (Their origin and exact character remain yet unknown.)
Conclusion Six: Something very strange is going on.
(A) Principle investigator/sources/reference
(Aa)
Colin Andrews
Amamiya Kiyoshi
Dr. Jean-Noel Auburn
Robert Boerman
Andrews Colins
Pat Delgado
Dr. Eltjo Haselhoff
Gerakd Hawkins
Dr. Simeon Hein
Michael Hesemann
Ron Jones
Wiliam Levengood
Maki Masao
Terence Meaden
Lucy Pringle Archie Roy
Peter Sorensen
Freddy Silve
Nancy Talbott
Busty Taylor
Andy Thomas
Paul Vigay
George Wingfield
James Withers
(1)Internet reference/source
(1a)Website of organization using scientific methods/analysis:
http://www.bltresearch.com/index.html
Quoting directly from the website, this is their introduction:
BLT RESEARCH TEAM INC.
PURPOSE: The BLT Research Team Inc.'s primary focus is crop circle research - the discovery, scientific documentation and evaluation of physical changes induced in plants, soils and other materials at crop circle sites by the energy (or energy system) responsible for creating them and to determine, if possible, from these data the specific nature and source of these energies. Secondly, our intent is to publish these research results in peer-reviewed scientific journals and to disseminate this information to the general public through lectures, mainstream articles and the internet.
Their reports include ---
Reported Observations
A great variety of observations in crop circles have been reported. Some are typical of a class of crop circles, while some are isolated instances. These are characteristics of crop circles that have been reported/found.
History - The earliest reference to a crop circle is a 1678 wood cut which depicts a circle of crop being cut down by a figure of the Devil. They have appeared since the turn of the Century and esitmates of 100 to 300 circles have been found prior to 1980. Some say as much as 10,000 since 1970. Many farmers tell of their fathers talking about crop circles.
Distribution - worldwide, with the majority in the southern UK. Have been found in most other countries including U.S., Canada, Hungary, BVewlgium, Brazil, France, Germany, Italy, Turkey, JPuerto Rico, New Zealand and Australia.
Location - most often in fields of grain. But also have been found on ice, dried lake beds and snow. It is believed that the natural aquifiers found in England contribute much to their occurance there.
Size - Early crop circles were of modest size, 15 to 60 feet in diameter. Recent circles can stretch as much as 900 feet
Visible Nodal Changes - One of the most prominant features of a crop circle is the bending of the plant usually at the node. Often the nodes have burst. Typically, the length of one side of the node increases up to 200% thereby bending the plant over. (See picture) While the heigth of the bend from the ground is usually close to the ground, a set of three circles had nodes which were bent at different heights as one progressed toward the center forming a pattern which was then repeated over and over until the center was reached. The pattern was identical in each of the three circles. Haselhoff was able to take plants from prescribed positions, measure their nodes using compouter hardware and software, and determine a correlation between distence from center to edge and a hypothetical EMF source above the circle. This is "hard" evidence that the circles were created by an EMF of some sort.
Magnetic Anomalies - In many cases compasses are affected severely, metal becomes magnetized. In one video, Dr. W.C. Levengood, a professor and biophysicist, moves a magnet toward a seed taken from inside the circle. The magnet attracts the seed and holds it off the table.
Battery depletion - In many cases the battery of an electronic device taken into a circle becomes depleted. This has happened even to batteries known to have been fully charged before taking it into the circle.
Energy lines - Usually found by dowsing, confirmed by electronic sensors, the circle's geometry is usually found to line up with these natural lines.
Intricate Lay - The crop is laid down in woven and interwoven patterns. As many as four layers of stalks each layer flowing in different directions have been found. In the Julia set circle, a different pattern of lay was found in each of the hundred circles. In one circle, a single standing stalk was found in every square foot of the circle.
vertical patterns - in one circle the bent of the plant varied in a repeatable pattern as they were laid down toward the center. This became obvious when the plants grew upward at these different hieghts.
Eye/ear Witnesses - Most circles being created are not witnessed. There are instances that the circle was observed during it's formation by an eyewitness
Bent Rape Stems - Oil seed rape or canola has a stem structure like celery, it breaks easily. Circles are found in canola fields with bent stalks, here just below a node. One photograph shows a canola plant bent 180 degrees.
Cellular Changes - Laboratory analysis shows several kinds of changes in the cellular structure.
Carbon Blackening - Interestingly, when the node of a stalk bursts, a black ring is often found. Originally thought to be due to charring, it was shown to be a opprotunistic fungus.
Balls Of Light - Lights in the form of a circle or sphere have been seen hundreds of times. In one video two balls of light are seen circling a field and then a crop circle appears in a matter of seconds. It is commonly accepted that these BoL's as they are called, are responsible for making a genuine circle. Heselhoff states that because of the many sightings, and appearence in two journals, the balls of light can legitimately be reagarded as a scientific fact.
Germination Changes - Depending on when the seed is laid down, the germination rate can slow down or speed up, confirmed by laboratory tests of the growth patterns. (Leavengood is now making "super" seeds modified by a similar process...)
Perimeter Stalks - The division of inside to outside is very sharp. (In some circles, bent stalks are found interspersed with standing stalks.)
Crop Selectivity - In the U.K., corn, wheat, carrots, barley. Circles have been found in other environments. A huge "flower of life" was seen in an Oregon dried lakebed. The total length of the lines, 4 inches deep, 18 inches wides with beveled edging, measured 13 miles. After a survey, the lines were bowed out eight inches at the center, duplicating the effects of a point source directly above the design.
Rapid Daylight Appearance - A circle, the Julia Set appeared at Stonehedge in a field in clear view of guards and tourists during a 45 minutes time frame. Consisting of ---circles, each circle with a different pattern of downed plants.
Geometrical theorems - The circle atructure is not random. Precise measurements show that many geometrial relationships can be found in each of the circles. Five new geometrical theorems have been found.
Nitrogen / Nitrate Ratios - The level of nitrates is higher in a circle compared to outside the circle.
Clay crystalization - THe crystaline structure of clay has increased
Time Dilation - Reports of unusual time changes have been made
Electro/mechanical Failures - Almost all electronic equipment brought into a circle will fail due to depleted batteries. Sometimes tractors will stop when driven into a circle
Radiation Anomalies - The presence of radiation with a short half life has been found.
Photographic Anomalies - Balls of light appear in photographs. Some of these have been attributed to reflections from the flash hitting dust particles.
Molten metal imprint - In a shipment of grain staks sent to a laboratory, pieces of metal fell from the stalks during the unpacking . The metal was shaped according to the structure of the plant.
Trilling Noise - A high frequency trilling sound is often heard
Dead Porcupines And Decapitated Dogs - A flattened dad porcupines was found in one circle.
Scared Horses & Howling Dogs - Dogs seem to get excited around circles.
Menstrual Disruption -
Endocrine Effects - THe levels of melatonin, a natural hormone found in the body increase. Melatonin production is inhibited by light ans should only increase during darkness.
From Wikipedia... "Normally, the production of melatonin by the pineal gland is inhibited by light and permitted by darkness. For this reason melatonin has been called "the hormone of darkness". The secretion of melatonin peaks in the middle of the night, and gradually falls during the second half of the night."
Miracle Cures =
Insects Stuck To Crop - In one circles hundreds of insects were found with their wings fuzed to the stalks.
Underground Water - The UK has natural aquifiers
White Substance -
Magnetic substance -
Perpetrators - Non/super-human? This is the subject of extensive speculation. No scientific evidence has been found which would point one way or the other.
Deception - The modern history of crop circles is replete with attempts by various media to deceive and discredit scientists. Haselhoff tells of one time he was asked in an interview if a particular circle could have natural causes, his reply was no, it is too complex. Then he was asked if it could have been man made and he replied that it was possible. When the interview aired, the question asked was could the circle have been man made, and the reply edited in the tape was no, it is too complex, then they panned to the hoaxers laughing.
http://www.cropcirclenews.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=148
They write
Crop Circles : A Field Report of the Howell, Michigan Crop Circle Formation
On July 29-31, 2003, a private scientific research team documented physical evidence revealing that the Howell Township, Livingston County, Michigan crop circle formation was not made by hoaxers.
The team consisted of Jeffrey Wilson, Todd Lemire, and Dr. Charles Lietzau of Michigan, and Roger Sugden of Indiana. Arriving at the field on July 29, 2002, we discovered and photographed the presence of several anomalies that cannot be duplicated by hoaxers. Conclusions
Our research team had at this point in our investigation enough conclusive scientific evidence as well as a body of supporting contextual detail to show that the Howell crop circle formation had not been hoaxed by people using mechanical means, and that the evidence uncovered supports the conclusion that this is an authentic formation. There are other anomalies that were detected in this formation, but until our lab studies are concluded, and we are certain of our findings, we will refrain from reporting those at this time.
Sources
(1a)Website of organization using scientific methods/analysis: BLT RESEARCH TEAM INC. http://www.bltresearch.com/index.html
(2b) The Deepening Complexity of Crop Circles: Scientific Research and Urban Legends. (2001) Eltjo H. Haselhoff, Ph.d. Frog Ltd. Berjekey Ca. ISBN 1-58394-046-4 (2ba) Dr. Haselhoff is a practicing physicist specializing in optical imaging. quote: "Anyone claiming that all crop circles can be easily explained as the work of human pranksters, or hoaxers as they are usually called, reveals that he does not know what he is talking about."
(2c) Secrets in the Fields: The Science and Mysticism of Crop Circles. (2002) Freddy SIlva Hampton Roads, Charlottesvile VA. ISBN 1-57174-322-7 (2ca) Silva has written perhops the most comprehensive book on all aspects of crop circles. Quote:"The astronomer David Darling expresses this elegantly in his Equation of Eternity" 'The conscious mind is crucially involved in establishing what is real. That which reaches our senses is, at best, a confusion of phantasmal energies - not sights, not sounds, or any of the coherant qualities that we project outward onto the physical world. The Universe as we know it is built and experienced entirely within our heads, and until that mental construction takes place, reality must wait in the wings.'"
(2d) The Hypnotic Power of Crop Circles (2004) Bert Janssen. Frontier Publishing, Netherlands ISBN 1-93182-34-7
(2da) Janessen focus on the construction of crop circles, specifically how the geometrical elements hang together. Quote "Crop curckes. One of the biggest mystery of our times. They are obviously not the works of pranksters and practical jokers. They are also not a natural phenomenon. Nature doesn't think. But the thought, whoever or whatever is thinking it, has a very strong resemblance to the way in which we humans think. It is very much as if the phenonmenon is just another part of ourselves. One the one hand we are not responsible for the shapes in the crop, on the other hand we are." (p99)— Preceding unsigned comment added by Tommysun (talk • contribs)
Tommy, you're hammering this poor talk page to within an inch of its life. There is no need to add this much material to it, and to keep doing so comes close to violating WP:POINT. Anyway, to begin to address some of the things you have mentioned:
- Dr. Eltjo Hasellhof, a practicing physicist, Okay so far.
- once employed at Los Alaamos and several Dutch Institutes, His past employment history is not of importance.
- presently the senior scientist at a medical imaging company in the U.K., Nor really is this statement.
- has rigorously investigated the crop circle phenomenon. POV. Who says his investigation was rigorous?
- His findings are published in "Deepening complexity of Crop Circles:" Okay, but this is properly done by citation, not in this manner.
- by Eltjo H. Hasellhoff, Ph.D. Well, it would be. You've already said it's his book.
- The title of his dissertation was "Aspects if a Compton Free-Electron Laser". Totally irrelevant to this discussion.
- Also published in Physiologia Plantarum 111, vol. 1 (2000): 124. Dispersion of Energies in Wordwide Crop Formations" (Opinions and Comments). Again, cite material rather than copy titles verbatim into the body of the text.
That's as far as I got. Someone else can tackle the rest. Oh and please sign your posts. --BillC 01:31, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
- Yeah, could you shorten it a bit? Skimming over it, I don't see anything that added to your argument (whatever that happens to be). In addition, I don't really know how much of it you wrote and how much of it you just copied from another website... and I don't see how all of this could possibly be relavent to the article. We already know your POV. And no, no matter how hard you try to convince me, I will not be convinced that it is a fact that there are crop circles that are not man made. And I don't think you will convince other people who think the same way as I do. Things don't just magically become true when you say them on talk pages over and over again. iamthebob(talk|contribs) 01:37, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
- Come on guys, this is my working copy, stuff that could go into the article. It took some doing to collect it together, and I don't wnat to lose it in the archives. This is what we got to work with. What do you think should go into the article? Better yet, which single item, taking this one by one, shuld not be in the article? Tommy Mandel 23:32, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Bob you write: "I will not be convinced that it is a fact that there are crop circles that are not man made." Does this mean your mind is closed? Tommy Mandel 17:03, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
- I will revise my statement. "Unless if you provide evidence that is of quality many times better than what you have now, I will not be convinced that it is a fact that there are crop circle that are not man made." I will, however, concede that there exist people that believe that there are non man-made crop circles. However, you take it as a fact that there exists crop circles are not man made. Does that mean that your mind is closed? iamthebob(talk|contribs) 22:21, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
- First of all, I am not trying to convince you or anyone else that there are crop circle that were not made by the hand of man. What I am trying to do is to present all the meaningful evidence so that the reader can decide for himself - you included. And I do not take it as a fact, several times during this overall discussion I have changed my mind. It is a rather unsettling experience to conclude that my conclusion is wrong. There is more to it than what is presented above - the crystallization of clay, for example. There is absolutely no way stomping on clay can do that Tommy Mandel 03:02, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- Hey Tommy, greetings, if we forget for one second all these things, tell me what other fields of sceince you are interested or working in right now.. phippi46 23:52, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- My primary field of research is general system theory. Tommy Mandel 15:55, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
WikiProject Paranormal
I've re-added the rudely removed project tag. Our project isn't required to 'prove' something is paranormal (which would be rather impossible, I believe), but rather that a topic has been associated with one of the subjects of our project scope (UFOlogy, in this instance). --InShaneee 13:46, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
- My apologies, I thought that the rating was put there as a joke by one of our editors. Do you see balls of light too? Tommy Mandel 23:28, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
- I can't tell if that's sarcasm or not...either way, I'll just say that we're not making any claims about the content of the article or the subject itself, merely saying that we've decided that this is one of the articles we want to help patrol and improve, which really is a good thing all around IMHO. --InShaneee 15:30, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
- One of the mysterious features of crop circles are what they call balls of light. I can't help but wonder if the UFO's are not actually balls of light too...Tommy Mandel 03:29, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
- I can't tell if that's sarcasm or not...either way, I'll just say that we're not making any claims about the content of the article or the subject itself, merely saying that we've decided that this is one of the articles we want to help patrol and improve, which really is a good thing all around IMHO. --InShaneee 15:30, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
- What is this "what people consider paranormal"? I get the impression from at least two editors that there is no such thing as the paranormal. It is scientific to conclude that because one has not experienced the paranormal, therefore the paranormal does not exist?Tommy Mandel 16:31, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
- Definiton of paranormal. The paranormal may or may not exist, but evidence for its existence is not backed by science. Now, read your last statement again. Now, answer this question: have you experienced a crop circle being made? iamthebob(talk|contribs) 22:19, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
- no. Tommy Mandel 22:51, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
(back to margin) I went to the link and here is what I found
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1) - Cite This Source par‧a‧nor‧mal ::–adjective of or pertaining to the claimed occurrence of an event or perception without scientific explanation, as psychokinesis, extrasensory perception, or other purportedly supernatural phenomena.
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.
- Beyond the range of normal experience or scientific explanation: such paranormal phenomena as telepathy; a medium's paranormal powers.
Notice the subtle differences. According to the the logic of the former definition, consciousness, because consciousness science has not been able to establish any sort of objective test for consciusness, might read something like. "It is claimed but not scientifically explained that consciousness purportedly exists." In fact, the argument has been proposed by some within the scientific community that they do not know that consciousness even exists. (all that because they have not found a quantitative measurement they can do) It cannot be said in any way that the existence of whatever depends on scientific proof. Science does not know all. Just because science has not found proof for the paranormal it cannot be said that science has proved it does not exist. Tommy Mandel Tommy Mandel 02:30, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
OK, let's look at what you wrote above --
- The paranormal may or may not exist, but evidence for its existence is not backed by science."
IS this a true NPOV statement? "May or may not sounds balanced, but what about "is not backed by science"
The very same thing can be said about consciousness -- Consciousness may or may not esist, but evidence for its existence is not backed by science."
Can you see the subtle "editorializng" which tends to opine? I know you are conscious, but science has yet to determine what consciousness is and only after they do that will they find a way to measure it and only after that is verified will they be able to say something about consciousness. None of that warrants the opinion that, therefore, "the existence of consciousness is not backed by science."
So, until "science" those who study consciousness in a scientific way, can say what consciousness is, science really cannot say one way or the other what lies beyond our consciousness. Nor can any other scientist, nor can you or I. And a true NPOV will reflect this fact.
It is not scientific or even logical to believe/say that the paranormal does not exist because of the reason "I have not experienced it." Believe me, those who have come to experience it, do not grapple with such questions as "is it real?" Does it exist? Instead they have mastered a relationship with the Universe. Is that understandable? Our relationship with everything else. I don't know if that is a normal thing or not to you. We are not separate from the Universe, when we go beyond the separation of Us and the Universe, when there is no distinction as Plotinus puts it, the, he says"there is no difference. We are the Universe. To some this is mumbo jumbo, which I think is clever. Some do not have this experience, and for them it does not exist.
Tommy Mandel 03:04, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- I am actually being attacked/ridiculed for these views on the paranormal. Tommy Mandel 04:45, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
- No, you are being "attacked" (actually merely opposed) for allowing your views to override neutrality. There is a gulf between what you believe and what can be verified from external sources. Your actions with respect to Bower and Chorley are a case in point; you have advanced no evidence to cast doubt on their statement that they made crop circles and there is unequivocal evidence from various sources that many of the circles which were noised about in the press in the 1980s were hoaxes, yet you repeatedly revert to weasel words which imply that this is only claimed. If your POV was not quite so blatant you would have fewer problems with other editors. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence; here we have both a credible prosaic explanation and a failure to provide any compelling evidence to contradict it. Guy 15:17, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
- I am actually being attacked/ridiculed for these views on the paranormal. Tommy Mandel 04:45, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
You haven't been around that long Guy to have heard the attacks on me, I have been insulted continually by one editor no longer around, so you can't talk as if I haven't been attacked. Second of all, the article started out as a clearly slanted point of vire that ALL crops circles are hoaxes. There is no question that some of the circles have been hoaxed. It can even be argued that most of the circles have been hoaxed. A funded study found that eighty percent are probably hoazes. I never disputed that claim. I never suggested that the hoaxers do not exist. I researched the subject, and I know for a fact, that the real scientists who did take the time to study the circles, do not take the stance that all of them are hoaxed. Instead they say that some of them, 20% of them, could not be hoaxed. This is the edge of their knowledge, if they were not hoaxed, then what? Here the scientists can only speculate, and that speculation has no more intrinsic authority than does yours or my speculation. Therefore the true scientific mainstream consensus is that they do not know what is making the circles. Leavengood says that he can duplicate some of the plant changes by placing them in a microwave oven for thirty seconds. So a popular idea in science is that they are caused, in part, by electromagnetic heating. If you think that is nuts, Leavengood developed and patented and is selling "stressguard" seeds which have been zapped by him.
- Leavengood != popular idea. Legal maxim: the plural of ancedote is not evidence. Please sign your edits. Michaelbusch 07:01, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
HAARP
It has also been suggested that HAARP may be the cause although this seems unlikely and has been refuted by scientists working in the field. (no pun intended)
- What HAARP has to do with this thing, I thought it was designed to research for Weather Phenomenon phippi46 10:52, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
AddHoc, please comment
AddHoc, I request that you present your evidence of my behavoir as you have observed it on the arbitration evidence page. I ask that you do this as a neutral party rather than as my advocte. If you are inclined to do so, please add your advocacy of my POV clearly stating it as such. Thank you
Tommy Mandel 04:43, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
- Tommy you are not mad and I dont think expressing a certain point of view should be treated as something unusall. You belief something and you are free to say here, same time other who dont belief in your theories are presenting there point of views. I have some doubts on your thoeries also, but it is fine for me, as when I get some critisim, I check my facts and try to improve them, and that is why we are here, to find the truth. who is right and who is wrong I dont know .. may be some day we will able to settle on something. keep going... phippi46 13:15, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
- I don't think that you should be soliciting people to support your POV... especially not on the talk page for crop circles. This has nothing whatsoever to do with crop circles; you will not buy credibility by asking for votes. In fact, someone may cite this page as evidence in the Arbitration page. iamthebob(talk|contribs) 04:38, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
- You are mistaken. There has been mention of my work at crop circles on the arbitration page. AddHoc is my advocate appointed in accordance with policy. He has been monitoring our actions since my request for arbitration was rejected. He is a neutral party and knowledgeable of what I do. Because the references in arbitration concerning my work at crop circles was negative, I am asking AdHoc to testify as to his observations of me. And because he is my advocate, he can throw that in too if he is so inclined. Notice that I did not suggest/imply/tell him how to testify. Tommy Mandel 05:11, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
- As a matter of fact, Bob, you wrote an evidence section which ended up on the arbitration evidence page. So how do you manage
- "I don't think that you should be soliciting people to support your POV... especially not on the talk page for crop circles. This has nothing whatsoever to do with crop circles;"Tommy Mandel 20:22, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Removed two comments in article stating that science assumes circles are man made. This is false, the science that has investigatied the circles concludes with a big question mark. Tommy Mandel 05:27, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
- Hi, could I comment that all statements have to be verified by reliable sources, with the exception of common sense, which includes for example that Paris is the capital of France. The statements that were removed went beyond this and therefore should be sourced. Addhoc 11:34, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
- You gave a very good example .. hmmm.. phippi46 15:47, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
- Can i have a link of some sort where science has said cirles are NOT man made? Not to say they arent't, but just wanting to read up on that point of view. 210.49.194.248 06:46, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
- Go up this page to science of crop circles. Unfortunately the science of crop circles is not allowed in the article. Tommy Mandel 08:03, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
- Science is allowed. Pseudoscience is not. Michaelbusch 08:11, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
- Go up this page to science of crop circles. Unfortunately the science of crop circles is not allowed in the article. Tommy Mandel 08:03, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
--Submitted as evidence of pseudoscience by editors--
Evidence of pseudoscience/pseudoskepticism
The following has been submitted to the Arbitration Committee as evidence of pseudoscientific actions - implying or stating as scientific fact that which has not been scientifically supported. [1]
Article - Crop Circles
Evidence of POV Pushing
This is what I placed into the article.
- [edit] Scientific investigations of crop circles
- A number of practicing scientists have investigated the crop cicle phenomenon including Gerald Hawkins, an astronomer who investigated Stonehedge reported on the geometrical formations; William Levengood, a biophysicist and University professor studied the plant structure, E, Haselhoff, an experimental and theoretical physicist studied the patterns of crop bending. The organization BLT research, utilized the scientific method to analyize soil structure. These investigations involved what has been observed in the field.
- The BLT Research Team is a group which states as its objective "the discovery, scientific documentation and evaluation of physical changes induced in plants, soils and other materials at crop circle sites by the energy (or energy system) responsible for creating them and to determine, if possible, from these data the specific nature and source of these energies", The BLT group has claimed that anomalous changes in the soil underlying crop circles have been found that could not be explained by conventional theory.[6]
- Dr. Eltjo Hasellhof, a practicing physicist, has rigorously investigated the crop circle phenomenon. His findings are published in his book: "Deepening Complexity of Crop Circles:"
"Crop circles have become highly controversial, especially after it was revealed that some of the circles were man-made. "Unfortunately, much of the public information is not very accurate or even is completely wrong, as a result of ignorance, lack of accuracy or objectivity. or simply evil intent. " Haselhoff has investigated the crop circle phenomenon and concluded, "some relativly simple observations seem to defy any trivial explanation. Biophysical anomalies, in terms of node leghtening and germination anomalies, The lack of any indication of human presence or mechanical flattening, The awesome complexity and particularily the hidden geometry in many pictograms at least indicate that this cannot be the result of a simple joke,"
And this is what happened ---
- "I have reverted your edits to Crop Circles, as they give the false appearance of reputable science promoting crop circles as something other than pranks. Any future additions of this material, even in part, should be given consensus on the article's talk page and cited to death. Another suggestion: this talk page is for people to leave you messages. It is not a place for you to catalog all of your edits. That is done automatically (the contributions tab). Michaelbusch 02:20, 25 November 2006 (UTC)"
The truth of the matter is that those scientists who have investigated the crop circle phenomenon have found objective evidence which they say could not have been created by mechanical means. In the biological realm, cellular structure changes within the plant are unexplained, In the geological realm, changes to the atomic structure of clays cannot be explained, In the geometrical realm, new Euclidian theorems have been found that are not explainable by chance. And then there are those enigmatic Balls of Light. If mainstream science means the commonly held view of those scientists who are actually involved in the research, and that is all the mainstream view can mean in science, then the scientific mainstream view is that thay do not know what caused the circles. Tommy Mandel 04:46, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
- No. The mainstream view is that there are a large number of pranksters out there. The 'objective evidence' cited has been accurately produced in demonstrations of crop circle construction (as discussed in the article). The other problems referenced above (which show a lack of understanding of the corresponding subjects) are not relevant to this discussion. See User:Michaelbusch under Objection 3. This situation is a variant of that case. Michaelbusch 06:41, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
Of course there are pranksters out there. However, the objective evidence you are basing your conclusion on comes from the article which you are assuming is correct. But on the contrary, the article lacks all the scientific evidence that has been published. And if you are presenting that the POV of the article as the scientific view then I claim you are being pseudoscientific, in spite of your devored efforts to combat pseudoscience. Meanwhile you haven't really said anything, and so I cannot really refute what you do not say, can you be specific? What reputable source claims that ALL crop circles have been made by mechanical means? What reputable source claims that the scientists who have studied them are not reputable?
What do you find wrong with this?
As a good introduction to the phenomenon from the scientific perspective, Dr. Heselhoff writes: Page 128,
"The Facts:" "In the last twenty years. there has been much speculation about different aspects of crop circles. But it takes more than just a little reading to understand where the facts end and where the fiction begins. Personal involvement and investigation, field work, discussion with many people, crucial questions, and much thinking are needed to reveal the true character of the crop circle phenomenon. Unfortunately, much of the public infrmation is not very accurate or even is completely wrong, as a result of ignorance, lack of accuracy or objectivity. or simply evil intent. Although many alleged crop circle properties cannot bear the scrutiny of an objective analysis. some relativly simple observations seem to defy any trivial explanation. Biophysical anomalies, in terms of node leghtening and germination anomalies, are probably number one on this list. The lack of any indication of human presense or mechanical flattening, observed many times in even the most fragile and delicate species of crop, is perhaps somewhat less objective but still good for a second place. The awesome complexity and particularily the hidden geometry in many pictograms at least indicate that this cannot be the result of a simple joke. Even fantastic and extraordinaty observations, in the form of a radient balls of light hovering above a field and creating a crop circle, can fulfill the requirements that "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." This extraordinary evidence was delivered in Chapter Three. The node-length measurements unambiguously showed a perfect symmetry in three different cross sections through the circular imprint, in perfect correlation with the radiation pattern of an electromagnetic point source. This is indeed the required extraordinaty evidence, which at least ought to open our minds to the dozens of other, similar eyewitness accounts, and of course the video material of the flying balls of light. Moreover, since identical findings were accepted for publication in the scientific literature, it is quite legitimate to say that the involvement of balls of light in crop circles formations has by now become a scientifically accepted fact. (3) And there is much more extraordinary evidence, in the form of burn marks on the bird box, delicately draped, undamaged carrot leaves; a virgin circle in a frozen field of snow, dead flies, and much more. Anyone who takes the time to explore and verify all of these findings personall find that the facts are plain: Something very strange is going on." Tommy Mandel 07:18, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
- First thing wrong with this: massive quote from a text which adds zero content.
- Problems with the reference:
- Reference is not peer-reviewed, and Heselhoff himself has not published any peer-reviewed papers that I can find in a search of the usual indeces. As far as I can tell, this man has no presence in any standard reference. On Google, the name only appears in your pages on Wikipedia.
- The only reference in this reference to anything in the literature is balls of light. But 'balls of light' are caused by a great many things (say a headlamp) and the bare fact that something was accepted into the literature in no way insures validity. I won't bother to list all of the retractions and fraud that have made it past review. Review is the first filter. It is not the last.
- The quoted passage in and of itself provides no evidence. Michaelbusch 07:32, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
OK, you don't think a scientist is reputable unless he is well known. So what about Gerald Hawkins? Can I use him as my source? And would you carefully consider what he has to say if I present it to you?
Tommy Mandel 07:40, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
You are not talking from a position of knowledge when you give us your opinion about the balls of light. I won't go into the details here, but one of the videographers in England who went from believer to "they probably are all hoaxed" wrote on his website, "But the balls of light are real, I have seen them myself."