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:::::So far, there is precious little to connect him to "Christian terrorism." If he is deemed insane, that precisous little evaporates. '''OR is not involved''', I suggest you read what [[WP:OR]] is before tossing out that acronym <g>. [[User:Collect|Collect]] ([[User talk:Collect|talk]]) 00:06, 2 December 2011 (UTC) |
:::::So far, there is precious little to connect him to "Christian terrorism." If he is deemed insane, that precisous little evaporates. '''OR is not involved''', I suggest you read what [[WP:OR]] is before tossing out that acronym <g>. [[User:Collect|Collect]] ([[User talk:Collect|talk]]) 00:06, 2 December 2011 (UTC) |
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On what basis is the claim that Breivik is Christian, his own delusional writings? Many schizophrenic people believe they are Jesus Christ, Breivik happened to believe he is a "Christian crusader" who is part of a Templar organisation, soon to be [[Regent]] of Norway. Seriously guys. He may have committed acts of terror, but the link to Christianity is ultimately sourced to his schizophrenic mind. --[[User:Nug|Nug]] ([[User talk:Nug|talk]]) 08:51, 2 December 2011 (UTC) |
On what basis is the claim that Breivik is Christian, his own delusional writings? Many schizophrenic people believe they are Jesus Christ, Breivik happened to believe he is a "Christian crusader" who is part of a Templar organisation, soon to be [[Regent]] of Norway. Seriously guys. He may have committed acts of terror, but the link to Christianity is ultimately sourced to his schizophrenic mind. --[[User:Nug|Nug]] ([[User talk:Nug|talk]]) 08:51, 2 December 2011 (UTC) |
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:The same criteria used for ALL Christians: Their own personal statements of affiliation are enough to determine such a thing, and RS has determined that he certainly views himself as such. You can no more "decide" that Breivik is [[No true Scotsman|not a "true" Christian]] than you can state that [[Fred Phelps]] isn't one either. You are not the Supreme Pope of Christendom. He is as much a "Christian" as any ''other'' Christian. --[[User:Bryonmorrigan|Bryonmorrigan]] ([[User talk:Bryonmorrigan|talk]]) 16:20, 2 December 2011 (UTC) |
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::::::This is a pointless discussion. We report what reliable sources say, being sure to explain the degree of support opinions have. The contention that a person who has been deemed to be legally insane cannot be a terrorist or a Christian is an exercise in original research. [[User:The Four Deuces|TFD]] ([[User talk:The Four Deuces|talk]]) 16:14, 2 December 2011 (UTC) |
::::::This is a pointless discussion. We report what reliable sources say, being sure to explain the degree of support opinions have. The contention that a person who has been deemed to be legally insane cannot be a terrorist or a Christian is an exercise in original research. [[User:The Four Deuces|TFD]] ([[User talk:The Four Deuces|talk]]) 16:14, 2 December 2011 (UTC) |
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Northern Ireland (Continued)
--Hemshaw (talk) 04:43, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Uh, the problem is, almost all those attacks are attributed to groups with the stated aim of gaining political concessions, for want of a better word, in Northern Ireland. I'd narrow it down to targets that are definitely sectarian, such as Protestant or Catholic centres where the motive of the perpetrator is known to be religious. --Rowboatcop (talk) 11:00, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Hemshaw, the material on England that you added most recently looks good to me on first reading. Thanks, and thanks also for taking this to the talk page. Expanding on Rowboatcop's comments, it is very important at this page to have secondary sources that establish that a specific event was "Christian terrorism", not political terrorism or any other kind of terrorism. Editors here tend to want to argue every jot, more so than at the typical Wikipedia page, because the material is inherently controversial. Some editors have partisan inclinations, while others take offense at any suggestion that a terrorist could possibly be Christian. The only way to put such disagreements to (something approaching) rest is to have high quality secondary sourcing. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:10, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Terrorism in Northern Ireland is normally seen as ethnic/nationalist between people of mostly Scottish and English ancestry who are loyal to the United Kingdom and people of Irish ancestry who are loyal to the Irish Republic. If there are incidents of religious terrorism, you would need to show that that is how they are normally described. TFD (talk) 23:44, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- TFD quote your sources in the discussion and avoid OR, as in doing ad hoc metastudies of the issue. Also you are not the filter of what is and what is not in this article, the community is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DevakiPaladin (talk • contribs) 11:42, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- I have presented multiple sources above but here we go again. See Aubrey's The new dimension of international terrorism, Chapter Five "Typologies of Terrorism" (p. 43): "Six basic types of political inspired terrorism recognized: nationalist, religious, state-sponsored, lef-wing, right-wing, and anarchist.... 5.1 Nationalist Terrorism.... Some well known current nationalist terrorist groups are the Irish Republican Army...."[1] However it is up to people who consider it "religious terrorism" to provide a source. TFD (talk) 12:29, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- TFD quote your sources in the discussion and avoid OR, as in doing ad hoc metastudies of the issue. Also you are not the filter of what is and what is not in this article, the community is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DevakiPaladin (talk • contribs) 11:42, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- I have to agree with TFD here that this is primarily an ethnic/nationalist dispute. While those of Scottish/English ancestry happen to be predominately Protestant, and those of Irish ancestry happen to be predominantly Catholic, religion isn't the underlaying cause of the dispute like it was during the English Reformation. "Protestant/Catholic" is just basically a derogatory tag interchangeable with "Loyalist/Republican", as the dispute has more to do with British rule and unification with Ireland. --Martin Tammsalu (talk) 03:50, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Either way, there could be many people who are of any of the religions, of any/mixed ancestry settled anyplace. Suggesting that it is better to go by reliable sources than some other understanding without consensus. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 18:09, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- After several months away I am really disappointed to come back and find that the section on Northern Ireland is still pretty-much all opinion. It's much better than it was at the beginning, but I notice that it is actually beginning to get worse again and some stuff which I seem to remember being deleted has crept back since I left. Overall, it doesn't really do any more than try to create casual links between Christianity and terrorism in Ireland. It is also still completely at odds with the main articles (including the one referenced as the 'Main Article'!) on the subject and doesn't attempt to weigh the issue or discuss it at all. I still don't see any real expert opinions or evidence for the subject. Given that the conflict in Ireland dates back around seven hundred years I would expect rather more evidence for this being a primarily (or even secondarily) religious conflict. I would like to repeat that there is a big difference between Christians who commit acts of terrorism and acts of terrorism committed in the name of Christianity. While both are lamentable, only the latter belongs on this page. As such, I have cut down one of the paragraphs and have also removed the following until someone can confirm or deny that the motivation for such was actually religious and that the use of the phrase "Roman Catholic" is not just the usual outsider-slang for Irish Republicans:
- "Other notable individuals convicted for terrorism offences include Pastor Kenny McClinton, a convicted murderer who once advocated beheading Roman Catholics and impaling their heads on railings, and Billy Wright, a Born again Christian preacher who became one of the most feared paramilitary figures in Northern Ireland before being assassinated whilst incarcerated in prison.[1]"
- I think we also need to clarify whether the Orange Order bombed Catholic churches because they were Catholic, or because they were assured of killing a lot of nationalists and none of their own side, which seems an like a much more logical and likely conclusion considering the fact that churches are sacred to all Christians regardless of denomination.
- Ion Zone (talk) 16:48, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
- After several months away I am really disappointed to come back and find that the section on Northern Ireland is still pretty-much all opinion. It's much better than it was at the beginning, but I notice that it is actually beginning to get worse again and some stuff which I seem to remember being deleted has crept back since I left. Overall, it doesn't really do any more than try to create casual links between Christianity and terrorism in Ireland. It is also still completely at odds with the main articles (including the one referenced as the 'Main Article'!) on the subject and doesn't attempt to weigh the issue or discuss it at all. I still don't see any real expert opinions or evidence for the subject. Given that the conflict in Ireland dates back around seven hundred years I would expect rather more evidence for this being a primarily (or even secondarily) religious conflict. I would like to repeat that there is a big difference between Christians who commit acts of terrorism and acts of terrorism committed in the name of Christianity. While both are lamentable, only the latter belongs on this page. As such, I have cut down one of the paragraphs and have also removed the following until someone can confirm or deny that the motivation for such was actually religious and that the use of the phrase "Roman Catholic" is not just the usual outsider-slang for Irish Republicans:
Catholic terrorism in Madrid
"A Mexican student was arrested in Madrid on Tuesday after posting his intention to attack anti-papal protestors with toxic gases, including sarin, on the internet."
http://www.elpais.com/articulo/english/Student/detained/for/anti-papal/gas-attack/plan/elpepueng/20110816elpeng_8/Ten — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.180.109.179 (talk) 09:51, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
- I'd wait to see if he's just a troll first, or if he actually had any noxious or poisonous gasses.
- Ion Zone (talk) 18:01, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
Set WP:TROUBLES for the possibility of sanctions (1RR) on articles which deal with Northern Ireland in any contentious manner (such as asserting the Irish are "reclaiming" NI which is being "kept" by the British.) We surely can deal with the issues in that section without having the sanctions invoked, I trust. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:59, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
- Can you explain the relevance to your recent edit which you summarize with "see WP:TROUBLES which seem to relate to the new edits abut the Irish simply "reclaiming" Northern Ireland". TFD (talk) 17:40, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
- Read the ArbCom decision thereon - and which would clearly be invoked were this article to delve into "reclaiming of Northern Ireland" as a claim. IIRC, it was a sufficiently major case for old-timers to recall. Cheers. Collect (talk) 19:02, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
- I fail to see how the text you removed met the criteria. It did not for example use the term "reclaiming" which for some reason you decided to put in quotation marks. Frankly I have not seen any partisan disagreement over the conflict in this article, only differences over whether it was a national or religious dispute. TFD (talk) 19:14, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
- Read the ArbCom decision thereon - and which would clearly be invoked were this article to delve into "reclaiming of Northern Ireland" as a claim. IIRC, it was a sufficiently major case for old-timers to recall. Cheers. Collect (talk) 19:02, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
- I would presume "reclamation" would be a suitable wording covered, and that Collect's use of quotations was to indicate "reclaiming" in a general context and not as a direct quote? — Preceding unsigned comment added by RobertMfromLI (talk • contribs) 19:23, 20 November 2011
- Collect, thank you for putting your comments in large type, which makes them easier to read. However, my understanding of the warning is that we should not use the term "re-claim" when speaking factually about NI, but that we may use the term in direct quotes or when paraphrasing people that use the term. TFD (talk) 02:04, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
- You had averred that I erred in using the word "reclaim" (Your claim was: It did not for example use the term "reclaiming" ) - it seemed to me that pointing out the precise usage in the edits would help you. Meanwhile read the WP:TROUBLES decision - it shows why using any such edits would, indeed, place this article under those sanctions. Cheers. Collect (talk) 14:44, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
- Collect, thank you for putting your comments in large type, which makes them easier to read. However, my understanding of the warning is that we should not use the term "re-claim" when speaking factually about NI, but that we may use the term in direct quotes or when paraphrasing people that use the term. TFD (talk) 02:04, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
Recent Edits - "No True Scotsman"
Some recent edits promoted the idea that Christianity generally opposes terrorism and murder, and then those edits were reverted for being POV. But I think we need to have this discussion, in relation to the "No true Scotsman" logical fallacy. Essentially, all forms of anything bad, whether murder, terrorism, child abuse, etc., that is conducted through religious motivation, can be "dismissed" with the NTS fallacy. For those unfamiliar with it, it's like saying, "No true Christian would commit a terrorist act...therefore, the terrorist/terrorism was not Christian." If we allow it to stand as is, then the same kinds of statements can be used on all forms of religious misdeeds. (Osama bin Laden wasn't a "true" Muslim...Pedophile priest aren't "true" Catholics...Adolph Hitler wasn't a "true" Christian...etc.) Now, I did look at the page for Islamic terrorism, and noted that there is significant discussion of Muslim theological views on the subject, pro and con. I think, if we are to allow some sort of discussion regarding mainstream Christian opposition to terrorism, that it must therefore also be contrasted with the "justifications" used by those groups that do engage in those kinds of actions. Christianity (like all secondary religions; See: Jan Assmann) has had a long history of being connected to murder, death, and violence, from the beginnings of recorded Christian history in the Roman Empire, the Christian "Just War" doctrine, forced conversions, the Crusades, the execution/stoning/burnings of "heretics" and "witches," etc. Are all of these instances to be referred to as "not really Christian?" I think some kind of POV-neutral section on this should exist...but certainly not just an "apologetic" one based on the NTR fallacy. --Bryonmorrigan (talk) 14:30, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
- Conceptually, there is nothing that prevents the use of the term "Christian terrorism". The problem is in finding examples. In recent years Islamic religious terrorism has become a major force, but note that we do not confuse that with Arab nationalist terrorism (e.g., the Abu Nidal group) which was carried out largely by Muslims. TFD (talk) 17:28, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
- Oh, I think there are some great examples on this page, particularly in reference to India and the USA. (I'm not really convinced about this Northern Ireland stuff, though...) I'm just saying that maybe a section discussing the theological/ideological "justifications" similar to how they are treated on the Islamic Terrorism page, might be a good idea. I doubt that we will find anything very easily from India, given the fact that most of the areas in question are fairly poor and not well-connected to the Internet...but I'm sure that we could collect sources from Christian scholars and religious figures denouncing it...and contrast those with the words of Christians advocating Christian Terrorism, or making apologies for it. (In particular, this would probably be pretty easy with the USA, particularly in reference to anti-abortion-related terrorism.) --Bryonmorrigan (talk) 17:46, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
Pls. note I regard removal of my sourced content for act of vandalism. It is extremely contra-productive to blame something sourced for POV, by applying the same logic the whole article here should be then removed. The wikipedian rules state: "When you find a passage in an article that you find is biased or inaccurate, improve it if you can. If that is not easily possible, and you disagree with a point of view expressed in an article, don't just delete it. Rather, balance it with what you think is neutral." There is nothing wrong with balancing articles in other direction if they are biased in one, and I very much recommend you do do the same. I'd like to ask you whether you see any room for my add-on after some adjustment or whether you prefer to continue areour dispute by means of higher standard dispute resolution methods, such as involving 3rd party mediator. Thanks--Stephfo (talk) 19:11, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
- I have restored your edit with all it's faults. I don't have the energy to argue.Theroadislong (talk) 19:35, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
- No, this edit does indeed have numerous issues, and should be discussed before being reintroduced. Right now, the most glaring issue is that the information was presented in the lead, despite not being reflected anywhere in the article. We certainly can't give POV commentary such as this equal weight to the entirety of the rest of the article. — Jess· Δ♥ 19:52, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
- I think you (Stephfo) do not understand the concept of "vandalism" or NPOV. You really should look at No true Scotsman. Saying, "It's contrary to the Ten Commandments, therefore it's 'Anti-Christian,' and not really 'Christian,' at all." is pretty much one of the best examples of this kind of logical fallacy in effect. This article is only "biased" or "inaccurate" if you disbelieve in the concept of "Christian Terrorism," because your weltanschauung is based on the idea that Christians can do no wrong (and if they do...they suddenly cease to "be" Christians...LOL). What you added was extremely POV, so the editor was correct in removing it. In such instances, it's best to then arrive at a consensus on the talk-page, as I have attempted to start here as a dialogue, rather than edit-warring. --Bryonmorrigan (talk) 20:32, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
- Sorry but do not use quotation marks if the given sentence atributed to me is not mine, I did not write sentence of yours. I'm not edit warring, but if someone removes content based on wrong assumption (namely "information was presented in the lead, despite not being reflected anywhere in the article"), I feel free to correct it. I doubt you read edit summaries, if you would, you would find that there is a section named "Christian attitude to terrorism", it cannot be overlooked although I'm admitting it can be misunderstood. What I believe is unimportant, what matters is what scholars have written in sources. From my perspective your article parts are highly POV, so do I have the same right to remove it and say it should be discussed first in here? Pls. advise. --Stephfo (talk) 20:52, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
- Sorry, I paraphrased much of your edit to create that sentence. I shouldn't have used quotation marks. Anyways, my "article parts" have gone through a LOT of discussion on the talk page, where I had to repeatedly present a ridiculous amount of sources to justify their inclusion, often after they were deleted (just like yours), and many of my sentences have been "adjusted" or edited quite a bit. (I haven't added anything to this page in a LONG time...) I haven't deleted or edited anything of yours, nor directly accused you of edit-warring...I've just stated that, before adding a lot of stuff like that, on a page of such a hotly-contested and controversial subject, it's probably best to circumvent the inevitable edit-warring that will certainly occur if it continues like this. Like I said, it's probably best for everyone involved to just try to find a reasonable consensus on the talk page. As I stated above, I'm not even saying that the information shouldn't be there...I'm just saying that there needs to be a less POV, and more even-handed, way of doing it...than by invoking a logical fallacy. --Bryonmorrigan (talk) 23:02, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
- No, this edit does indeed have numerous issues, and should be discussed before being reintroduced. Right now, the most glaring issue is that the information was presented in the lead, despite not being reflected anywhere in the article. We certainly can't give POV commentary such as this equal weight to the entirety of the rest of the article. — Jess· Δ♥ 19:52, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
Breivik insane
Breivik has been declared insane[2], thus I have removed the section on Norway for obvious reasons. --Nug (talk) 20:13, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
- And I reverted you. Nothing wrong with adding the new information to the page, instead of blanking the section, but being sane is not a requirement for something to be terrorism. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:15, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
- Not being convicted under Norway's terrorism laws, upon what basis do you consider Breivik a terrorist, the writings of a diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic? --Nug (talk) 20:17, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
- The short answer is the sources with which the section has been sourced. It isn't based upon his own writings, but rather, what secondary sources have said. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:20, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
- All those secondary sources were written back in July, and were based upon Breivik's self description of "Christian crusader". We now know Breivik's writings are a result of a diagnosed mental illness. --Nug (talk) 20:25, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
- So? TFD (talk) 20:28, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
- In fact, most of the sources were not merely based upon his writings, but also upon reporting of a great deal of other information, observed independently, such as what happened during the attacks. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:30, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
- And they knew back then that he wasn't necessarily sane. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:32, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
- I imagine most religious terrorists have something wrong with their brain. Noformation Talk 21:06, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
- So? TFD (talk) 20:28, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
- All those secondary sources were written back in July, and were based upon Breivik's self description of "Christian crusader". We now know Breivik's writings are a result of a diagnosed mental illness. --Nug (talk) 20:25, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
- The short answer is the sources with which the section has been sourced. It isn't based upon his own writings, but rather, what secondary sources have said. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:20, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
- Not being convicted under Norway's terrorism laws, upon what basis do you consider Breivik a terrorist, the writings of a diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic? --Nug (talk) 20:17, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
A person found to be legally insane lacks the competence to have him labelled as a "religious terrorist" as far as I can tell. I note that so far it is only the doctors who have found him insane - but I did not find any Norwegian case where a court rejected the findings of the court-appointed psychiatrists. If there is no rejection of the doctors' findings, I suggest that he be removed from this article. Cheers. Collect (talk) 21:04, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
- Actually, he hasn't been found to be legally insane yet -- the doctors assigned to evaluate him have released their report. The next step is for the court to decide what this means. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 21:08, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) I think we're deep enough into WP:BRD that I hope everyone will refrain from blanking the section until there has been more discussion and consensus. If I understand correctly, what we have is the news that he was evaluated and found by a clinician to be insane. I'm not aware of any finding declaring that the attacks were not terrorism. Going from the clinical finding to a conclusion about either Christianity or terrorism, independently of any sources, risks being WP:SYNTH. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:09, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
Just a note: my understanding of the Norwegian penal system is that one is still charged with and convicted of a crime regardless of their mental state; the difference arises in how that person is punished as opposed to how their actions are evaluated. So at the end of this, he'll either be guilty or not of the crime but may also be deemed mentally incompetent. Obviously sources will tell the story later and my opinion is just my opinion, but just wanted to point this out. Noformation Talk 21:34, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
- The claim that Breivik is a "Christian terrorist" is based solely upon the interpretion of his writings by these commentators. Tryptofish's claim that these writers also used other information such as what happened during the attacks has no merit. All that can be observed from these attacks is that Breivik had an intense dislike of left-wing youth groups. The connection to "Christian terrorist" is based solely upon Breivik's delusional writings, where he also claimed to be a future regent of Norway pending a takeover by a non-existing templar organisation. --Nug (talk) 22:33, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
- No, those sources provide considerable sourcing for his actions being terrorism, and nothing about his competency to participate in his own defense at trial changes that fact. Beyond that, you are simply arguing that a delusional person cannot be Christian. No one is claiming the converse, that Christians in general resemble Breivik. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:40, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
- No -- and this article is not about "every terrorist who is Christian" - it requires that the religion itself be part of the reason for the terrorism (else it is utter nonsense as a topic). If the cause of the terrorism is unrelated to Christianity, then it does not belong here. I trust this is clear. Otherwise we could add every single terrorist who is Christian to this article, everyone who is atheist to "Atheist terrorism" and every Mormon terrirust to "Morom terrorism" etc. Which I rather suggest is contrary to Wikipedia policy ab initio. Cheers. Collect (talk) 22:52, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
- And as soon as you find some RS stating that he's insane and that the RS citing his religious motivations have been found to be incorrect, then you might have a case. Everything else is you making conclusions, and therefore OR. --Bryonmorrigan (talk) 23:08, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
- No -- and this article is not about "every terrorist who is Christian" - it requires that the religion itself be part of the reason for the terrorism (else it is utter nonsense as a topic). If the cause of the terrorism is unrelated to Christianity, then it does not belong here. I trust this is clear. Otherwise we could add every single terrorist who is Christian to this article, everyone who is atheist to "Atheist terrorism" and every Mormon terrirust to "Morom terrorism" etc. Which I rather suggest is contrary to Wikipedia policy ab initio. Cheers. Collect (talk) 22:52, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
- No, those sources provide considerable sourcing for his actions being terrorism, and nothing about his competency to participate in his own defense at trial changes that fact. Beyond that, you are simply arguing that a delusional person cannot be Christian. No one is claiming the converse, that Christians in general resemble Breivik. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:40, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
On what basis is the claim that Breivik is Christian, his own delusional writings? Many schizophrenic people believe they are Jesus Christ, Breivik happened to believe he is a "Christian crusader" who is part of a Templar organisation, soon to be Regent of Norway. Seriously guys. He may have committed acts of terror, but the link to Christianity is ultimately sourced to his schizophrenic mind. --Nug (talk) 08:51, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
- The same criteria used for ALL Christians: Their own personal statements of affiliation are enough to determine such a thing, and RS has determined that he certainly views himself as such. You can no more "decide" that Breivik is not a "true" Christian than you can state that Fred Phelps isn't one either. You are not the Supreme Pope of Christendom. He is as much a "Christian" as any other Christian. --Bryonmorrigan (talk) 16:20, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
- This is a pointless discussion. We report what reliable sources say, being sure to explain the degree of support opinions have. The contention that a person who has been deemed to be legally insane cannot be a terrorist or a Christian is an exercise in original research. TFD (talk) 16:14, 2 December 2011 (UTC)