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Editors only excuse is that we do not have consensus. That is not a valid reason to delete well sourced text that meets Wikipedia's inclusion criteria. Consensus can only work among reasonable editors who make a [[Wikipedia:Assume good faith|good faith effort]] to work together in a [[Wikipedia:Civility|civil manner]]. When editors or an editor continues to [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Chiropractic&diff=240591638&oldid=240583009 r][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Chiropractic&diff=prev&oldid=240622195 evert] in the presence of [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ASurturz&diff=240613889&oldid=240613369 bad faith], we have established [[WP:CON]]. [[User:QuackGuru|<span style="border:solid #408 1px;padding:1px"><span style='color:#20A;'>Q</span><span style='color:#069;'>ua</span><span style='color:#096;'>ck</span><span style='color:#690;'>Gu</span><span style='color:#940;'>ru</span></span>]] 06:47, 24 September 2008 (UTC) |
Editors only excuse is that we do not have consensus. That is not a valid reason to delete well sourced text that meets Wikipedia's inclusion criteria. Consensus can only work among reasonable editors who make a [[Wikipedia:Assume good faith|good faith effort]] to work together in a [[Wikipedia:Civility|civil manner]]. When editors or an editor continues to [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Chiropractic&diff=240591638&oldid=240583009 r][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Chiropractic&diff=prev&oldid=240622195 evert] in the presence of [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ASurturz&diff=240613889&oldid=240613369 bad faith], we have established [[WP:CON]]. [[User:QuackGuru|<span style="border:solid #408 1px;padding:1px"><span style='color:#20A;'>Q</span><span style='color:#069;'>ua</span><span style='color:#096;'>ck</span><span style='color:#690;'>Gu</span><span style='color:#940;'>ru</span></span>]] 06:47, 24 September 2008 (UTC) |
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:Rubbish, I have said repeatedly that inclusion of the gallup poll violates [[WP:SYNTH]] and [[WP:NPOV]], and I think Levine agrees with me. Consensus means that all, or very nearly all, editors accept the inclusion of a particular piece of text. '''If other editors do not immediately accept your ideas, think of a reasonable change that might integrate your ideas with others''' is the bit you seem to be ignoring. Attempting to discredit the views of other editors is not the way to build consensus, changing your proposed text to incorporate their concerns is. --[[User:Surturz|Surturz]] ([[User talk:Surturz|talk]]) 07:05, 24 September 2008 (UTC) |
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== References == |
== References == |
Revision as of 07:05, 24 September 2008
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Murphy et al. 2008
Gallup poll
In #NPOV below, Coppertwig objected "it makes it sound as if the survey established as fact that a certain percentage of chiropractors are unethical". To fix this problem, let's apply the following change (italics are new text) "a 2006 Gallup Poll of U.S. adults found that they ranked chiropractors ranked lowest among health care professions for honesty and ethics", resulting in the following revised proposal:
- In contrast, a 2006 Gallup Poll of U.S. adults found that they ranked chiropractors lowest among health care professions for honesty and ethics, with 36% of poll respondents ranking chiropractors as very high or high; other professions' rankings ranged from 62% for dentists to 84% for nurses.[1][2] Chiropractors received rankings of 26% in 1999 and 31% in 2003 using the same measure.[3]
Eubulides (talk) 17:42, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks, Eubulides. That's much better; however, I don't see support in the sources for the statement that the survey participants ranked chiropractors "lowest" among health care practitioners; in fact, according to the table in USAToday, it looks to me that only one participant ranked chiropractors "very low", while three participants ranked psychiatrists "very low". (If the sources do support the statement, please tell me where exactly in the sources.) I think it would be more accurate to state that of 7 health care professions, chiropractors received the smallest percentage of survey participants ranking them as "very high" or "high" in ethics. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 19:03, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
- There is support in the cited sources. The first paragraph of Murphy et al. 2008 (PMID 18759966) summarizes the Gallup poll by saying "The profession still finds itself in a situation in which it is rated dead last amongst healthcare professions with regard to ethics and honesty". Eubulides (talk) 19:22, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
- Here was the last version in the article. This is accurate and supported by the references. QuackGuru 14:18, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- What actually happened was that chiropractors got the fewest "high" or "very high" ratings. One way of describing this is what the source says: "it is rated dead last". Factually, I think that's a reasonably accurate way of describing the results; however, we can't state it that way because we have to use an impartial tone. However, I think it's not reasonably accurate to say that American adults rated chiropractors "lowest". They did not. Fewer of them rated them high; that's not the same thing as rating them "lowest". When the source says "it is rated dead last", that's rather vague and therefore OK: they are not asserting that Americans rated them "lowest", which would be inaccurate. We need to find accurate wording. I've suggested this wording: does anyone see any problem with it? "Of 7 health care professions, chiropractors received the smallest percentage of survey participants ranking them as "very high" or "high" in ethics." I think that's an accurate representation of the results of the survey as well as focussing on the result that was emphasized in the sources. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 22:50, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
- Here was the last version in the article. This is accurate and supported by the references. QuackGuru 14:18, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- The normal practice when interpreting that Gallup poll is to say that a profession rates higher if it gets more "high" or "very high" ratings. This is the practice used by the cited source, Murphy et al. 2008 (PMID 18759966). And it's not just Murphy et al.; the cited Dynamic Chiropractic source says "nurses top the list" (again, using the normal practice of combining "high" and "very high") with 84%, whereas chiropractors get only 36%. This is why Dynamic Chiropractic's headline reads "Americans have low opinion of Chiropractors' Honesty and Ethics".
- It is indeed accurate to say what the cited source says, which is that American adults rated chiropractors lowest, using the measure in question (that is, the sum of the "very high" and "high" numbers). It is not vague to say, as Murphy et al. says, that chiropractors ranked "dead last", because they indeed ranked last by the measure in question, which is the common measure. The wording that you suggest is vague, as it omits the percentages, and thus fails to give the reader useful information as to how well chiropractors did.
- That being said, it is possible to rephrase the proposal so that the ranking method is specified more clearly. The following proposal incorporates part of your proposed text:
- In contrast, in a 2006 Gallup Poll of U.S. adults, chiropractors rated last among seven health care professions for being very high or high in honesty and ethical standards, with 36% of poll respondents rating chiropractors very high or high; the corresponding ratings for other professions ranged from 62% for dentists to 84% for nurses.[1][4] Chiropractors received ratings of 26% in 1999 and 31% in 2003 using the same measure.[5]
- Eubulides (talk) 07:11, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
Request for Comment, Possible OR violation at Chiropractic Effectiveness
Template:RFCsci There has been a dispute regarding the possibility of an WP:OR violation at Chiropractic#Effectiveness spanning a few months now. Essentially, this is a debate about whether or not we are able to use research not specifically about chiropractic in the article Chiropractic.
Chiropractors perform a high-percentage of spinal manipulation in the world. Other professions which perform spinal manipulations include Osteopathy and Physical therapy, among others. Chiropractic spinal manipulation (often times differentiated as spinal adjustment) differs from these other profession's version of spinal manipulation in intent, diagnosis, and technique.
There is research which studies the efficacy of chiropractic spinal manipulation. There is also research which studies non-chiropractic spinal manipulation. The latter kind of research is with what this RfC is concerned.
Some of the research currently being used at Chiropractic#Efficacy makes no mention of chiropractic at all; or only mentions chiropractic in passing but the research does not make any conclusions specifically about chiropractic spinal manipulation. This research is either about spinal manipulation in general or about spinal manipulation as performed by non-chiropractors. For instance, this study[6] is cited twice in the "Low Back Pain" section but the conclusions in the full-text makes absolutely no mention of chiropractic specifically, only spinal manipulation (SMT) in general.
Some nominal amount researchers have used some of these non-chiropractic studies to draw conclusions about chiropractic. This RfC is not concerned with those few cases. The RfC is concerned with non-chiropractic spinal manipulation research which neither draws any conclusions about chiropractic specifically nor is there any other research out there drawing conclusions about chiropractic from these non-chiropractic studies.
Since spinal manipulation is closely related to chiropractic and since a marginal amount of researchers have drawn conclusions about chiropractic efficacy from certain non-chiropractic studies, some editors have interpreted this to mean that we have free license at Wikipedia to cite any non-chiropractic spinal manipulation study as evidence for or against chiropractic effectiveness. Further, some editors feel that it is okay to include non-chiropractic spinal manipulation research at Chiropractic#Effectiveness if we make a clear distinction in the article that we are not necessarily talking about chiropractic efficacy but rather the efficacy spinal manipulation in general.
On the other side, editors claim that this violates WP:OR in that editors are setting the reader up to draw conclusions (positive or negative) about chiropractic effectiveness by presenting non-chiropractic evidence which itself makes no conclusions about chiropractic effectiveness. Further, editors on this side of the dispute claim that this may also specifically be a WP:SYN violation as the other editors (those in favor of inclusion of non-chiropractic studies) explain that since some marginal amount of researchers have made conclusions about chiropractic from other non-chiropractic studies then that gives us at Wikipedia free license to do the same with all non-chiropractic spinal manipulation research. Editors who feel that there is an WP:OR violation are in favor of preserving the non-chiropractic information by moving it into the more apropos Spinal manipulation article (which covers spinal manipulation as performed by any kind of practitioner including chiropractors, osteopaths and physical therapists).
Please note that it is not standard practice in the scientific community to use studies about non-chiropractic spinal manipulation to make conclusions about chiropractic spinal manipulation effectiveness. In fact, the chiropractic profession has been rebuked by some members of the scientific community for using positive non-chiropractic spinal manipulation research as evidence of the effectiveness of chiropractic spinal manipulation.
Okay. That may have been a lot of information for someone outside this subject to ingest. I apologize, but I sincerely hope that I was explicit and clear in my description of the dispute. In essence, what we are looking for in terms of comments from outside editors is whether or not the current version of Chiropractic#Effectiveness violates WP:OR/WP:SYN by presenting conclusions from research not specifically about chiropractic, but rather spinal manipulation in general. Would we be better off moving the non-chiropractic spinal manipulation research to the Spinal manipulation article? 01:25, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
Comments from the uninvolved:
You say "Some of the research currently being used at Chiropractic#Efficacy makes no mention of chiropractic at all; or only mentions chiropractic in passing but the research does not make any conclusions specifically about chiropractic spinal manipulation. This research is either about spinal manipulation in general or about spinal manipulation as performed by non-chiropractors."
If this is true, then the case here is cut-and-dried. WP:OR says
Any material that is challenged or likely to be challenged must be supported by a reliable source. "Original research" is material for which no reliable source can be found. The only way you can show that your edit is not original research is to produce a reliable published source that contains that same material. Even with well-sourced material, however, if you use it out of context or to advance a position that is not directly and explicitly supported by the source used, you as an editor are engaging in original research; see below
The bolded part seems relevant here. I don't know which sources specifically don't refer to Chiro, but sources used here ought to refer to it, and in more than just in passing. FWIW, it looks like there is a SM article, and I see no reason not to just refer the reader to that. There is no call to talk about SM in the Chiro article, as that information should be covered in the SM article. Sources which explicitly compare SM in general to Chiro should be used if they are RS, but taking an article on SM in general that doesn't mention Chiro and talking about the differences is OR and SYNTH:
"If the sources cited do not explicitly reach the same conclusion, or if the sources cited are not directly related to the subject of the article, then the editor is engaged in original research."[1]
I write responses in stages, as I go along. I wrote the above before reading your paragraph starting "On the other side, editors claim that this violates WP:OR in that editors are..."
So:
"Would we be better off moving the non-chiropractic spinal manipulation research to the Spinal manipulation article?"
Yes.
I have not digested the section in question. However, if the facts are properly presented above, the conclusion is very clear. ——Martinphi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 04:02, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
- I have not been involved in this particular discussion, I even posted my comment in the wrong place (below). I think it should be moved to the spinal manipulation article. MaxPont (talk) 06:56, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
Comments:
References to past discussion threads
This topic has been going on for some time; for previous discussions, please see Syn tag, SYN and implicit conclusions, Proposed wording for NOR/N, Chiropractic section on evidence basis, and A starting point for a look at the effectiveness section and introduction. Eubulides (talk) 05:21, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
Examples needed
The RfC gives no specific examples of WP:OR in Chiropractic #Effectiveness, and this vagueness makes the RfC difficult to follow. As far as I can see, every claim in Chiropractic #Effectiveness cites a reliable source that directly and explicitly supports the claim. If this is incorrect, then please list the specific claims that aren't directly supported by their sources. Eubulides (talk) 05:21, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
- How about we start in the beginning with the first ref[6] given in the "Low back pain" section which is used to support two statements:
- There is continuing conflict of opinion on the efficacy of SMT for nonspecific (i.e., unknown cause) low back pain; methods for formulating treatment guidelines differ significantly between countries, casting some doubt on the guidelines' reliability.
- ...whereas the Swedish guideline for low back pain was updated in 2002 to no longer suggest considering SMT for acute low back pain for patients needing additional help, possibly because the guideline's recommendations were based on a high evidence level.
- Neither of there statements say anything about chiropractic specifically but rather SMT in general. The conclusions given in this reference make no statements about chiropractic specifically: Treatment recommendations for nonspecific LBP, particularly spinal manipulation, remain inconclusive. Guideline developers need to consider guidelines in neighboring countries and reach consensus on how evidence is graded and incorporated into guidelines. Guidelines should continue to be regularly updated to incorporate new evidence and methods of grading the evidence. I agree that this would be a nice source for the Spinal manipulation article, but is out of context and misleading at the Chiropractic article, creating an WP:OR violation. -- Levine2112 discuss 05:53, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
- It is WP:OR without V,RS references that show the effort to deliver identical treatments. I am repeatedly seeing poor research or distant data in a general category, that is off by a factor of 10 to 100 in *several* variables, being touted as relevant to competing CAM categories. WP:OR and highly erroneous pushing a POV.--I'clast (talk) 06:56, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
- Murphy et al. 2006 (PMID 16949948) is not the first reference in Chiropractic #Effectiveness. It is the 12th reference. Are the first eleven references OK? That would be good news.
- Murphy et al. directly supports the two statements that cite it, so there is no WP:OR here. Here are quotes from Murphy et al., one for each of the two statements that you listed above. Each quote directly supports the corresponding statement:
- "Inconsistencies in the evidence suggest that there is continuing conflict of opinion regarding: efficacy of SMT for treatment of nonspecific or uncomplicated LBP; optimal time in which to introduce this treatment approach; whether SMT is useful for treatment of chronic LBP; and finally, whether subacute LBP actually exists as a separate category requiring a specific treatment approach in its own right. ... The most surprising finding, and a factor that casts some doubt on the reliability of the recommendations made, was that the levels of evidence and/or grades of recommendation used for formulating treatment recommendations varied so significantly between countries." (page 579)
- "The Swedish guideline, which had been updated since the earlier review by Koes et al, proposed the biggest change for the application of SMT in the treatment of LBP. The earlier version (2000) stated that SMT should be considered within the first 6 weeks (acute period) for patients who need additional help with pain relief or who are failing to return to normal activities. In contrast, the more recently updated guideline (2002) made no recommendation to use SMT as a treatment intervention for the acute phase of LBP, possibly because the guideline developers based their treatment recommendations on grade of recommendation 'A,' which represents the highest level of evidence." (page 579)
- Murphy et al. is not cited out of context. The context is the evidence basis for the effectiveness of spinal manipulative therapy for low back pain, and this context is clearly stated in Chiropractic #Effectiveness. This topic is highly relevant to chiropractic. Murphy et al. base their conclusions on their analysis of systematic reviews and randomized controlled trials that use both chiropractic and non-chiropractic data, which is standard practice in recent reviews; Chiropractic #Effectiveness characterizes their conclusions accurately; it does not claim that their conclusions are specific to chiropractic.
- Your suggestion that this material is relevant to Spinal manipulation is of course reasonable. However, putting the material there would be excluded by the overly-restrictive rule that is assumed by this RfC, because the material is not specifically about spinal manipulation; it is about spinal manipulative therapy, which is not the same thing. Of course, it would be silly to exclude this material from Spinal manipulation on WP:OR grounds, just as it would be silly to exclude this material from Chiropractic on WP:OR grounds.
- Eubulides (talk) 07:02, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
- Murphy is currently the first ref given in the "Low back pain" section. Are you really disputing that? In terms of this RfC, does it really matter?
- We are not discussing whether or not Murphy accurately supports the statements it is referencing. We are discussing whether it is appropriate to cite Murphy at all given that it is not making any conclusions about chiropractic spinal manipulation specifically but rather spinal manipulation therapy in general (as performed by a mixed bag of professions).
- You say this topic is highly relevant to chiropractic. But if you look at WP:OR, you will read: ...if you use it out of context or to advance a position that is not directly and explicitly supported by the source used, you as an editor are engaging in original research... Murphy does not directly and explicitly make any conclusions about the effectiveness of chiropractic spinal manipulation specifically; however, you are using it in a section Chiropractic#Effectiveness. Regardless of how clearly you explain it to the reader, you are still engaged in original research because this text is being used to advance a position about the effectiveness of chiropractic which the source does not directly and explicitly support.
- -- Levine2112 discuss 17:22, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
- I did not dispute that Murphy was the first ref given in some subsection. My question was whether earlier references are OK. This will help give us the rest of us the idea whether the hypothesized problem is systemic, or relatively limited to a few citations.
- WP:OR talks about using a source to support a claim that is not directly and explicitly supported by the source used. And that is what I was talking about as well. Murphy directly and explicitly supports the claim in question.
- Eubulides (talk) 23:48, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
- The earlier references are not necessarily "OK". I had access to the full-text of Murphy, it was the first one given in the Headache section, it had been discussed before, and it is a perfect example of the research in question: ones that rely on a mixed bag of professions performing spinal manipulation and one which makes no conclusions specifically about chiropractic.
- Murphy does not support that it has any correlation to any conclusions about the effectiveness of chiropractic. However, by including it in Chiropractic#Effectiveness, you are making such a correlation. Hence, the WP:OR.
- -- Levine2112 discuss 02:34, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- So we don't have an idea of how many references are being challenged here? And we don't know which references (other than Murphy et al. 2006, PMID 16949948) are being challenged?
- The statement "Murphy does not support that it has any correlation" doesn't seem to have anything to do with WP:OR. WP:OR says nothing about "correlation".
- Again, WP:OR talks about using a source to support a claim that is not directly and explicitly supported by the source used. The claim in question is directly and explicitly supported by Murphy et al. So there is no OR here, using WP:OR's definition.
- Eubulides (talk) 08:14, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- Any reference that doesn't specifically mention chiropractic, or the claim made is not directly relevant to chiropractic SMT is challenged. If you would like to go through them and count them, feel free. It is a fairly general concept, and we do not need to be specific about exactly which references this relates to at this point in time.
- The claim that Murphy et al's conclusions have anything to do with Chiropractic#Effectiveness is WP:OR. This has been made blatantly clear above. Is this WP:IDHT?
- If this isn't an example of IDHT, I will rephrase what Levine stated above to make it crystal clear. Murphy does not advance a position on Chiropractic effectiveness. It is being used out of context, and to advance a position "that is not directly and explicitly supported by the source..."
- DigitalC (talk) 09:33, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- We will need to be specific, if we want to make specific changes to the article. So far the only specific change requested in this thread is to not cite Murphy et al.
- I understand (and obviously disagree with) the argument that Murphy et al. has nothing to do with Chiropractic. But that argument is not an WP:OR argument. WP:OR says that claims must be directly supported by the citation. And it is not disputed that the claim in question, namely "There is continuing conflict of opinion on the efficacy of SMT for nonspecific (i.e., unknown cause) low back pain" is directly supported by the citation in question (Murphy et al.).
- Clearly there is a content dispute here. But it is not an WP:OR dispute.
- Eubulides (talk) 16:59, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- We will be specific if and when it is deemed that there is a general problem with confounding non-chiropractic efficacy research with a section that is supposed to be about chiropractic efficacy. Murphy is just a prime example of such non-chiropractic research for respondents to this RfC to analyze when considering their commentary here.
- I understand (and obviously disagree with) your argument that this is not an OR dispute. This RfC will help us determine if it is or if it isn't an OR issue.
- Yes, there is a content dispute. But whether or not it is an OR dispute is something which this RfC will help us determine. Be patient. -- Levine2112 discuss 17:07, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- remove SM material: it seems clear that a distinction is made in reliable sources between chiropractic procedures and spinal manipulation. therefore it seems obvious that you can not generalize from one to the other without violating OR. I can't even see why there's an argument about this. --Ludwigs2 17:01, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
- These more-recent comments still do not address the question of what specific changes are needed. I have followed up in #Request for Comment: Excluding treatment reviews below, to ask for some more-specific advice. Eubulides (talk) 21:39, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
- As a general rule in research articles, the terminology (spinal manipulation and spinal adjustment) is used interchangeably and synonymously by chiropractic and non-chiropractic researchers for HVLA-type manipulations/adjustments, regardless of the performer, or what the performer calls them, with all researchers using only the term "manipulation" when writing in mainstream journals to a non-chiropractic audience. Note that chiropractic researcers do that even when the bulk or all of the "manipulations" were performed by chiropractors, who in real life would likely call them "adjustments". Why? Because there is no proven physical, anatomical, or mechanical difference.
- Exceptions to the general rule will be found in ultra-straight literature. That's the only place where there is any consistency, since they make it a point of pride to identify themselves by the "purity" of their adherance to traditional chiropractic dogma. They are known as "principled" chiropractors. If your belief and point is about "who" performs it, then you will likely concede that a "manipulation", if performed by a chiropractor, is an "adjustment", and as clarified above, an "adjustment" performed by a chiropractor will be termed a "manipulation" by chiropractic authors in research designed for an audience that includes non-DCs.
- The place to make an exception is when research (it matters little who performed it) that explicitly mentions that none or only a small minority of the performers of the spinal manipulation were chiropractors (such studies exist), should be excluded. If such a statement is made in the research, then we could leave it out. -- Fyslee / talk 03:07, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
- I made a new set of comments in the section below Talk:Chiropractic#Request_for_Comment:_Excluding_treatment_reviews before I saw this. if it's true (and verifiable) that Spinal Manipulation is synonymous with Chiropractic, then I think the Ernst and Cantor review can be used (carefully, noting the following objection), but I still oppose the Cochrane review. both seems biased to me - the Cochrane particularly - mostly in how they say there's no evidence that SM is superior to conventional approaches when the evidence they have suggests that SM is roughly equivalent to conventional approaches. I can't understand why they gave chiropractic the higher bar of having to be better than conventional approaches, except that they might have been poisoning-the-well a bit. --Ludwigs2 06:25, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
- No one is saying that "Spinal Manipulation is synonymous with Chiropractic." "Chiropractic" is a profession, while SM is a technique. I'm not even saying that spinal manipulation is identical to spinal adjustment, only that in serious peer reviewed research the two terms are oftened used as synonyms since such research nearly always deals with HVLA type manipulations, not the myriad variations also included under the spinal adjustments umbrella. Since most such research includes mostly chiropractor performed "adjustments" (DCs perform about 90% of all manipulations), and those "adjustments" are termed "manipulation" in that research, even when the researchers are chiriopractors, then we are dealing with a chiropractic research POV that says they are identical enough to be termed the same thing. Serious chiropractic researchers are smart enough to avoid using esoteric straight chiropractic terminology when talking to other researchers and the public. When identical techniques, performed in an identical manner, are performed by two different persons from two different professions, there is basically no physical difference, and lots of HVLA "adjustments" are identical to HVLA "manipulations". Where any real differences show up is in the myriad "adjustment" techniques using devices, hand waving (without even touching the body), etc.. I don't recall any serious peer reviewed research (IOW not Journal of Vertebral Subluxation Research (JVSR) junk) that compares such widely different non-HVLA techniques with HVLA spinal manipulation performed by anyone in any profession. -- Fyslee / talk 14:23, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
- The bottom line is that without the source stating that they were studying chiropractic or chiropractic specific spinal manipulations, then we cannot conclude that the results are applicable to chiropractic directly. As you said, spinal manipulation is not synonymous with chiropractic. Chiropractors have their own version of spinal manipulation, wholly different in diagnosis, technique and philosophy. We are not making a judgment call on whether or not the few researchers who have confounded the two are right or wrong. That is not our place a Wikipedia. If a researcher has confounded the two, then we should present their research in context. However, we should not take research which was not specifically saying anything about chiropractic but rather spinal manipulation in general (as performed by a mixed bag of practitioners) and do the confounding ourselves. That would be violating WP:NOR. And if we base our confounding of the two on the notion that "a few researchers have done it themselves with their research, so we should be able to do the same with some other research", then we are violating WP:SYN. So, in conclusion: yes, we can use research that makes conclusions specifically about chiropractic, but research which only discusses spinal manipulation in general should be saved for the Spinal manipulation article. -- Levine2112 discuss 17:18, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
- Once again you make a claim ("Chiropractors have their own version of spinal manipulation, wholly different in diagnosis, technique and philosophy.") that ignores reality. Yes, chiropractors have all kinds of their own versions which they call "adjustments", but which are wholly different from HVLA type adjustments/manipulations, which is what we are talking about here. We aren't talking about chiropractic brandname techniques that have little to do with HVLA adjustment/manipulation. Those are not the subject of the research we are using. If you find that some of the references we are using are referring to such techniques and confounding them with HVLA adjustment/manipulation, then please help us by pointing them out. The ball is in your court. Your statement would be more true (although wholly inapplicable here) if you used more plurals: "Chiropractors have their own versions of spinal manipulation, wholly different in diagnoses, techniques and philosophy." Yes, they have myriad nonsensical and fantasiful ways of correcting their unique and fictional diagnosis, the chiropractic vertebral subluxation, sometimes using methods that can't affect spinal biomechanics at all.
- To say that these brandname techniques are "their own version of spinal manipulation" is misleading, since the HVLA type adjustments have little to do with them and are already well known to and used by Osteopaths, Physical Therapists, and MDs. Many of the HVLA type techniques are not unique to chiropractic, even predating Palmer. Remember that Palmer learned from A.T. Still and bonesetters. He did develop some new variations, but those have long since become public property, are used by other professions, and are a part of what is being researched in the studies we are citing. Chiropractors have been sharing "their" techniques for years. It is only the "different diagnosis" (vertebral subluxation (VS)) and "philosophy" (VS as a cause of "dis-ease") that remains unique, very fringe, and quackery.
- Mainstream research does not consider spinal manipulation to be significantly different from spinal adjustment (the term preferred by straight chiropractors) from the point of view of effectiveness studies. We should not let WP:FRINGE theories about the distinction between "spinal adjustment" and "spinal manipulation" override mainstream views in this area. Eubulides (talk) 17:42, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
- "Mainstream research does not consider spinal manipulation to be significantly different from spinal adjustment" - How do you know this? Remember, I have provided sources which contradict this. -- Levine2112 discuss 22:03, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
- We haven't seen any sources that directly contradict this, without backward OR inferences related to effectiveness. No evidence has been provided that there is a physical difference between them. Even major chiropractic researchers (university presidents, professors, etc.) make no difference between the two. They are not "just anyone" who doesn't understand the issues. They are not confused or confounding anything. They know more about this than you do. You need to bow to their expertise and learn from them.
- Sure we have seen remarks that contradict this. Shekelle contradicts it and so does Ernst (on Haldeman & Meeker: The authors also claim that 43 randomized, controlled trials of spinal manipulation for back pain have been published, but they fail to mention that most of them do not relate to chiropractic spinal manipulation. -- Levine2112 discuss 23:13, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- Neither Shekelle nore Ernst contradicts this. Shekelle is talking about confusing SM with chiropractic, which is a different issue. Ernst is criticizing Haldeman & Meeker for not clearly identifying sources. Ernst later does exactly what Haldeman & Meeker do, except that he clearly identifies the sources (see Ernst 2008, PMID 18280103). It is the identification of the sources that Ernst is concerned with, not the sources themselves. Eubulides (talk) 19:27, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- Note. Specific examples of OR are needed. Which sentence is OR and why. I do not see any WP:OR or WP:SYN. QuackGuru 17:39, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- At the beginning of this very sub-thread, a clear example is given. Let me know if you need further explanation of how that piece of non-chiropractic specific spinal manipulation research which makes no specific conclusions about the effectiveness chiropractic creates an OR violation at our article about Chiropractic because we are using it in the context of discussing the effectiveness of chiropractic. That said, I don't believe I can be any clearer than I have already been. -- Levine2112 discuss 23:22, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- The example at the top of this thread is accurately supported with references from reliable sources. QuackGuru 00:21, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- And yet the source makes no mention of chiropractic specifically in its conclusions. From WP:OR: Citing sources and avoiding original research are inextricably linked: to demonstrate that you are not presenting original research, you must cite reliable sources that refer directly to the topic of the article, and that directly support the information as it is presented. The example source for the text is supports doesn't refer directly to Chiropractic, thus it is an OR violation. -- Levine2112 discuss 00:33, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- The example at the top of this thread is accurately supported with references from reliable sources. QuackGuru 00:21, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- At the beginning of this very sub-thread, a clear example is given. Let me know if you need further explanation of how that piece of non-chiropractic specific spinal manipulation research which makes no specific conclusions about the effectiveness chiropractic creates an OR violation at our article about Chiropractic because we are using it in the context of discussing the effectiveness of chiropractic. That said, I don't believe I can be any clearer than I have already been. -- Levine2112 discuss 23:22, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- Note. Specific examples of OR are needed. Which sentence is OR and why. I do not see any WP:OR or WP:SYN. QuackGuru 17:39, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- (outdent)Clear case of OR if the reference does not specifically state it is relevant to Chiropractic. Surely a study that actually studies chiropractic can be found instead? --Surturz (talk) 00:39, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- Citing references that are directly related to chiropractic using reliable references is relevant. QuackGuru 00:56, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- Non-chiropractic spinal manipulation may be related to chiropractic spinal manipulation. But it isn't directly related. Heroin addicts' usage of hypodermic needles are related to medical doctor's usage of hypodermic needles, but you would not want to confound research about the two. -- Levine2112 discuss 01:01, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- When spinal manipulation is related to chiropractic there is no OR violation. QuackGuru 01:11, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- When the scientific community agrees that all non-chiro SM research is directly related to chiro SM, then there is no OR violation. Until that day comes, however, we have an OR violation. -- Levine2112 discuss 01:25, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- Editors decide what is related such as the outside view at the NOR noticeboard. QuackGuru 01:32, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- Not necessarily true. Especially when such a decision violates WP:OR as is the case here. Keep using the fact that you found one newbie editor to support you position; it's a really strong point. Especially when considering that two other outside views from more experienced editors supported my position at the very same NOR noticeboard posting. :-) -- Levine2112 discuss 01:43, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- There was only one outside view, from Calamitybrook, which clearly stated that it was not OR. All the other views were from editors who had previously expressed opinions here. Almost all of the the NOR discussion was merely a repeat of the discussion here; only Calamitybrook supplied a fresh viewpoint. Eubulides (talk) 19:27, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- Specific examples of OR is requested. The views who agree with Levine2112 are unable to provide any specific examples. QuackGuru 01:47, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- Murphy is a specific example of a piece of research which doesn't make any sort of direct reference to chiropractic in any of its conclusions, and yet we are using it to discuss the effectiveness of chiropractic. There is your example. I have provided an example. Insisting that I haven't is only the characteristic of the utterly ridiculous. -- Levine2112 discuss 01:53, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- That is not a specific example of OR. I have explained before that spinal manipulation is related to chiropractic. QuackGuru 01:59, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- Okay, until you are ready to accept the possibility that your opinions are wrong, there is nothing really further to discuss with you. -- Levine2112 discuss 02:33, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- That also wasn't a specific example of OR. QuackGuru 04:33, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
- Okay, until you are ready to accept the possibility that your opinions are wrong, there is nothing really further to discuss with you. -- Levine2112 discuss 02:33, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- Murphy is a specific example of a piece of research which doesn't make any sort of direct reference to chiropractic in any of its conclusions, and yet we are using it to discuss the effectiveness of chiropractic. There is your example. I have provided an example. Insisting that I haven't is only the characteristic of the utterly ridiculous. -- Levine2112 discuss 01:53, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- Not necessarily true. Especially when such a decision violates WP:OR as is the case here. Keep using the fact that you found one newbie editor to support you position; it's a really strong point. Especially when considering that two other outside views from more experienced editors supported my position at the very same NOR noticeboard posting. :-) -- Levine2112 discuss 01:43, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- Editors decide what is related such as the outside view at the NOR noticeboard. QuackGuru 01:32, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- When the scientific community agrees that all non-chiro SM research is directly related to chiro SM, then there is no OR violation. Until that day comes, however, we have an OR violation. -- Levine2112 discuss 01:25, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- When spinal manipulation is related to chiropractic there is no OR violation. QuackGuru 01:11, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- Non-chiropractic spinal manipulation may be related to chiropractic spinal manipulation. But it isn't directly related. Heroin addicts' usage of hypodermic needles are related to medical doctor's usage of hypodermic needles, but you would not want to confound research about the two. -- Levine2112 discuss 01:01, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- Citing references that are directly related to chiropractic using reliable references is relevant. QuackGuru 00:56, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
Futility of "effectiveness" discussions
What is troubling and bothersome about all of this is that misleading accusations of OR and SYNTH are being thrown around, and are functioning as straw men diversions because they are largely untrue, while another pressing issue is still unsettled. If we had settled that issue a long time ago, we would have avoided months of these discussions and have moved far ahead in our editing.
That issue is the inappropriateness of devoting so much space and energy to "effectiveness" in this article. These matters belong in the specific articles, and the only ones that relate to chiropractic are the articles related to Chiropractic treatment techniques, Spinal manipulation and Joint manipulation. Instead of devoting space to their effectiveness or lack thereof here, we should just mention them and wikilink them, for example: "The effectiveness of spinal adjustment/spinal manipulation is discussed in their own articles."
We need to get this matter settled once and for all and get on with editing other matters. An RfC would be appropriate and I will support a drastically pared down version (mostly removal to other articles) of anything related to "effectiveness", if the RfC is worded properly without the OR and SYNTH nonsense, which is unnecessary in such an RfC. If anyone revives these false accusations in that discussion, I will withdraw my support. Such accusations will only sidetrack the RfC. -- Fyslee / talk 04:20, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- Several times I have said that it'd be OK to trim Chiropractic #Evidence basis and put it into a subarticle, with a summary here. But I don't see why doing that would affect these misleading accusations.
- If we put discussion of the evidence-basis into Chiropractic treatment techniques, the exact same accusations would apply there; supporters of chiropractic would say that mainstream studies are about spinal manipulation, not chiropractic treatments, so it's WP:OR to cite those studies in Chiropractic treatment techniques.
- If we put the material into Spinal adjustment, supporters of chirorpractic would say that the mainstream studies use the term "spinal manipulation", not "spinal adjustment", so it's WP:OR to cite those studies in Spinal adjustment.
- Even Spinal manipulation wouldn't work. In #Examples needed Levine2112 gives just one example, Murphy et al. 2006 (PMID 16949948). Supporters of chiropractic would object to moving the material supported by Murphy et al. to Spinal manipulation, because Murphy et al. use the term spinal manipulative therapy, not spinal manipulation, and the two are not exactly the same thing.
- Last and not least, any summary of the evidence basis should include at least a brief mention of Ernst & Canter 2006 (PMID 16574972), the only systematic review of systematic reviews of the evidence basis, but supporters of chiropractic would object to this on the same grounds.
- In short, these accusations of WP:OR are a device for removing discussion of the evidence basis from all articles about chiropractic, and for splintering the discussion in related articles so that the inexpert reader cannot follow what's going on. Eubulides (talk) 08:07, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- I see a lot of lack of good faith here. Please considered restating this so as not to accuse all who recognize the OR/SYN violations as supporters of chiropractic. It might just be that they are supporters of Wikipedia. Fyslee has claimed that there is no evidence contradicting Meeker & Haldeman's reasoning for directly applying non-chiropractic spinal manipulation research to make conclusions about the efficacy/safety of chiropractic. To the contrary, I and others have pointed out several researchers who disagree with Meeker & Haldeman's rationale including Edzard Ernst: The authors also claim that 43 randomized, controlled trials of spinal manipulation for back pain have been published, but they fail to mention that most of them do not relate to chiropractic spinal manipulation. -- Levine2112 discuss 23:19, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- The first part of that comment does not disagree with the substance of what I said. The only substantive point was about Ernst's comment. But Ernst's comment does not disagree with Meeker & Haldeman's rationale; on the contrary Ernst uses the same sort of reasoning in Ernst 2008 (PMID 18280103). What Ernst was saying is that M & H should have clearly identified the sources of their data. Which is what Ernst does in Ernst 2008. Eubulides (talk) 19:27, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- I see a lot of lack of good faith here. Please considered restating this so as not to accuse all who recognize the OR/SYN violations as supporters of chiropractic. It might just be that they are supporters of Wikipedia. Fyslee has claimed that there is no evidence contradicting Meeker & Haldeman's reasoning for directly applying non-chiropractic spinal manipulation research to make conclusions about the efficacy/safety of chiropractic. To the contrary, I and others have pointed out several researchers who disagree with Meeker & Haldeman's rationale including Edzard Ernst: The authors also claim that 43 randomized, controlled trials of spinal manipulation for back pain have been published, but they fail to mention that most of them do not relate to chiropractic spinal manipulation. -- Levine2112 discuss 23:19, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Did someone forget to log in?
I see now that an 59.167.72.46 is installing changes, at least one of them (namely, removing what he called the "dodgy opinion poll" was a change proposed in the past 24 hours by User:Surturz. Did someone forget to log in? Eubulides (talk) 23:48, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
- It wasn't me, this is what I look like when I don't log in. It is bad faith for you and Fyslee to continue using snide comments implying that I am using sockpuppets. It seems incomprehensible to the both of you that NPOV might be between what you want the article to look like and what another editor wants to see. SurturZ --211.31.243.182 (talk) 01:13, 11 September 2008 (UTC) --Surturz (talk) 06:09, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- Hold on a minute Surturz! Who has made snide comments implying that you were using sockpuppets? Anyone can forget to log in, and such edits aren't "using sock puppets". Provide some proof. You went off earlier and falsely accused me of making such an accusation, and it's not true. Please provide proof so I can apologize, or you can just apologize and we can forget this repetition of a previous personal attack and assumption of bad faith. BTW, you should go back and sign any such edits properly. -- Fyslee / talk 05:40, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- You left a snide comment implying I was a sock here: [2]. Also, I logged out and added the comment above to defend myself against Eubilides snide remark implying that I was a sock (by demonstrating that I have an IP address in a completely different country to the comment he was referring to). To reprimand my for 'not signing' that IP comment is more bad faith. Particularly since I *did* put my user name on the comment, and you felt fit to reprimand me here rather than doing it on my talk page. (That said I have done so now, for I don't want to leave you any opening to game WP rules) --Surturz (talk) 06:09, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- That's a pretty unfair accusation considering the ancient nature of that comment and that I have since openly explained my retraction above:
- "I once suggested a checkuser on you as your edit warring style is very similar to CorticoSpinal's and I thought you might be another one of his incarnations, but I decided against it." [3]
- and reassured you that I was not assuming you were a sock:
- "Take it easy. No one is threatening you and I'm not assuming you're a sock puppet." [4]
- In spite of that you write that I have "continued"... Where have I "continued" to use "snide comments implying that [you were] using sockpuppets"? I only made a comment once a long time ago and it wasn't an accusation, only a suspicion that I have explained I dropped. I haven't continued anything, and I don't think Eubulides has either.
- I believe you owe both of us an apology for making false accusations and assuming bad faith in our actions and intentions.
- I am not gaming any policy. When I mention going back and signing your IP edits, I mean proper signing using four tildes that leave your username sig and time stamp, not just writing your name. I have been offering advice and warnings to help you. Why? Because I've been where you are, I needed help, and I learned from other's advice and warnings. We have all been beginners here and many of us have broken the rules and violated policies because we didn't understand how things work here. We were acting in misguided good faith. Editing here happens to be much more complicated than it would seem on the surface. The important thing is to show a positive learning curve by immediately stopping behavior that unnecessarily irritates reasonable editors, especially the type that is forbidden by policies here. Are you willing to learn from those with more experience, or are you going to continue to battle against us? We are discussing things with you and are willing to change positions if convinced by good evidence, references, and good explanations of policies. Unfortunately you are getting support from some editors who sympathize with your newby views on many of these matters, and this seems to keep you going in your current path. That's unfortunate. The editors to listen to are those who are seeking to include all available information from all POV, as long as they are well-sourced and presented in an NPOV manner. That's what NPOV demands. Those who seek to whitewash and eliminate POV they don't like will mislead you.
- Where is all this aggression coming from? Ever since you came here you have treated this like a battlefield. Please calm down and assume good faith. We are here to collaborate. Maybe you should assume good faith by assuming that we know the rules here better than you do, which would be pretty much inevitable and obvious considering you are new here. Let's try to get along. We are getting tired of all your accusations, commenting on us instead of the edits, repeatedly making very controversial edits that have previously been demonstrated to be controversial, etc.. Let's try to be friends here. We don't have to agree, but at least we should be able to disagree agreeably. Just ask User:Dematt if that's possible. He's a great chiropractor and editor here. You won't find a better gentleman here. -- Fyslee / talk 07:06, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- For what its worth, I too read an implication in Eubulides post that was Surturz that made the edits, possibly do to the strange syntax in which Eubulides used "he" before using Surturz's name ("at least one of them (namely, removing what he called the "dodgy opinion poll""). Either way, we all need to relax and assume good faith. In reviewing the IP users edits, there is actually some merit to them, although it should be discussed here before the edit being made. DigitalC (talk) 09:47, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- It's possible there was a case of mistaken identity regarding which IP was used by Surturz, but my main point is that he falsely accused both myself and Eubulides of "continuing"... There was no implication of the use of sockpuppets, just that someone might have forgotten to log in. Otherwise I agree that we need to AGF. We need to get back to a pleasant editing environment. -- Fyslee / talk 13:47, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- My strange syntax was due to being hurried; did you notice the unclosed paren as well? Anyway, I wasn't accusing anybody of being a sockpuppet; I was merely asking whether someone had forgotten to log in. 59.167.72.46 has not responded to that question, so we don't yet have an answer to it, and may never get one. Eubulides (talk) 16:59, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
59.167.72.46 is again making the same edits proposed and fought for by Surturz. Has someone forgotten to log in again? If this is not Surturz, then it's a meatpuppet who should be blocked for edit warring and violating the 3RR principle, which forbids even fewer than three edits when it violates the principle. -- Fyslee / talk 06:23, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- "If this is not SurturZ"? Why do you doubt? I have already said and proved that 59.167.72.46 is not me.
I'm not even in the same country as 59...Please stop trying to imply that I am logging out and editing the article with that IP. You and Eubilides have no cause to include my username in discussions about that IP address. So far you have called me a vandal, a sock puppet and speculated about my profession and friends (with the implication of POV pushing). Stop it. Just stop. --Surturz (talk) 07:05, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- That's pretty strong language, especially since it isn't true. I'm beginning to wonder if English is your second language, which is just fine, but would explain some of the misunderstandings that have been occurring. I haven't slandered you, as you wrote on my talk page, and I haven't implied anything. I only noted the similarity in edits and that it looks like you might have an unwanted "friend" who is meatpuppeting for you, likely without your knowledge. I would suggest you contact that person on their talk page and encourage them to log in properly to avoid confusion, since your IP is from Sydney, which is in the same country as Melbourne, where that IP is located. -- Fyslee / talk 14:19, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- My bad, I thought all Aussie IPs were in the 200s. Melbourne is almost a thousand kilometres away from Sydney, though, and Victoria may as well be a different country when you look at what they call football. I have nothing to do with edits by 59.167.72.46. They are not my sockpuppet, meatpuppet or any other sort of puppet. Run a checkuser if you want, you'll only embarrass yourself. And your accusations deserve strong language. --Surturz (talk) 14:43, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- You just don't seem to get the point. I didn't make an accusation against you, so please stop accusing me of making accusations. I only made an observation that someone made and defended edits identical to your edits. That would make them someone acting like a meatpuppet, IOW we would treat them as your ally, even if you don't know them, communicate with them, or even wish their support. Basically, if it came to a vote, their vote wouldn't count as an independent and separate vote. More than one IP has been blocked for making identical controversial edits as those made by a known and registered user. Often the IP and the registered user are both blocked for edit warring. That's what happened to an IP that was doing that with edits made by CorticoSpinal. It backed up and repeated his edits and edit warring pattern. He denied that the IP was his, but the edit warring pattern was identical, so both were blocked for edit warring. BTW, a checkuser showed that the IP was in his range, making his denial very questionable, but his block didn't use abusive sockpuppetry as the reason for blocking. I have no intention of running a checkuser on you. Why on earth would I want to do that? There is no reason to do that. You are you and that IP is someone else, as you have explained. That explanation would have been enough to avoid all this discussion. It was unnecessary for you to start making accusations. -- Fyslee / talk 03:08, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- You called me a vandal and threatened to report me here [5], you accused me of edit warring and threatened me with a RfCU here [6], you falsely and inappropriately assert that I am a chiropractor (with the implication I am POV pushing) here [7] (I'm a computer programmer!). So your protestations of innocence are completely insincere. You generally revert every edit I make, even when it has consensus, and have attempted to bully me ever since I started editing this article. I don't see why my username should be associated with IP edits I clearly have no control over, nor any association with. You claim you are not accusing me of anything, then proceed to describe a "similar situation" where the editor CorticoSpinal was banned! Either accuse me of using sockpuppets and run a checkuser, or shut up. At no point have you ever assumed that I was simply another editor trying to improve the article. --Surturz (talk) 02:11, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
- The most recent edit Surturz made to Chiropractic was a revert that was in turn reverted by Crohnie.
- The 2nd most recent edit was also a revert, that was in turn reverted by ImperfectlyInformed.
- The 3rd most recent edit was also a revert, which was reverted half by me, and half by the abovementioned ImperfectlyInformed revert.
- The 4th most recent edit deleted a significant amount of well-sourced text without discussion; this was indeed reverted by Fyslee.
- The 5th most recent edit also deleted significant well-sourced text without discussion, but it also introduced some useful text, also without discussion. I followed this up with an edit that restored the deleted text and reformatted and added better sources for the new text; this edit was not a revert.
- If we go back to Surturz's 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, and 12th most-recent edits, we can see that they were all reverted, and that Fyslee did not do any of those reverts.
- In summary, the claim "You generally revert every edit I make" is contradicted by the evidence presented here. Fyslee is not the one reverting the edits.
- Many of Surturz's edits were repeated attempts to replace an idea that has had longstanding consensus (having Chiropractic #Vaccination lead with a sentence that says vaccination is controversial within chiropractic) with an idea that does not have consensus (leading with a sentence that says that a significant minority or portion of chiropractors oppose vaccination).
- Almost none of the above-mentioned edits were discussed on the talk page first. Better results can be expected by discussing potentially-controversial edits before installing them.
- Eubulides (talk) 23:49, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
- You called me a vandal and threatened to report me here [5], you accused me of edit warring and threatened me with a RfCU here [6], you falsely and inappropriately assert that I am a chiropractor (with the implication I am POV pushing) here [7] (I'm a computer programmer!). So your protestations of innocence are completely insincere. You generally revert every edit I make, even when it has consensus, and have attempted to bully me ever since I started editing this article. I don't see why my username should be associated with IP edits I clearly have no control over, nor any association with. You claim you are not accusing me of anything, then proceed to describe a "similar situation" where the editor CorticoSpinal was banned! Either accuse me of using sockpuppets and run a checkuser, or shut up. At no point have you ever assumed that I was simply another editor trying to improve the article. --Surturz (talk) 02:11, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
- You just don't seem to get the point. I didn't make an accusation against you, so please stop accusing me of making accusations. I only made an observation that someone made and defended edits identical to your edits. That would make them someone acting like a meatpuppet, IOW we would treat them as your ally, even if you don't know them, communicate with them, or even wish their support. Basically, if it came to a vote, their vote wouldn't count as an independent and separate vote. More than one IP has been blocked for making identical controversial edits as those made by a known and registered user. Often the IP and the registered user are both blocked for edit warring. That's what happened to an IP that was doing that with edits made by CorticoSpinal. It backed up and repeated his edits and edit warring pattern. He denied that the IP was his, but the edit warring pattern was identical, so both were blocked for edit warring. BTW, a checkuser showed that the IP was in his range, making his denial very questionable, but his block didn't use abusive sockpuppetry as the reason for blocking. I have no intention of running a checkuser on you. Why on earth would I want to do that? There is no reason to do that. You are you and that IP is someone else, as you have explained. That explanation would have been enough to avoid all this discussion. It was unnecessary for you to start making accusations. -- Fyslee / talk 03:08, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
Request for Comment: Excluding treatment reviews
Should a Cochrane review on spinal manipulation be excluded from Chiropractic on WP:OR grounds? Similarly, should other reviews of treatments used by chiropractors be excluded from Chiropractic?
- Example of what's in the article now. Chiropractic #Effectiveness's coverage of chiropractic treatments talks about spinal manipulation (SM), and says "a 2004 Cochrane review ([7]) stated that SM or mobilization is no more or less effective than other standard interventions for back pain.[8]" This passage cites the current Cochrane review on SM therapy for low back pain, along with a systematic review of systematic reviews of SM. Chiropractic #Effectiveness also cites several other reviews of treatments used by chiropractors, e.g., Bronfort et al. 2008 (PMID 18164469), Chou et al. 2007 (PMID 17909210), and Gross et al. 2004 (PMID 14974063).
- Some background on the dispute. Some Wikipedia editors are objecting to citing mainstream reviews such as these, arguing that only sources specifically devoted to chiropractic should be cited by Chiropractic. This dispute has gone on for months; for previous discussions, please see Syn tag, SYN and implicit conclusions, Proposed wording for NOR/N, Chiropractic section on evidence basis, and A starting point for a look at the effectiveness section and introduction. A previous RfC on this issue (see Request for Comment, Possible OR violation at Chiropractic Effectiveness) does not specifically ask whether the abovementioned reviews should be excluded. This followup asks for clear advice on the core of the dispute.
- Statements by editors previously involved in dispute
- Mainstream reviews of treatments commonly used by chiropractors should not be excluded from Chiropractic on WP:OR grounds. Such exclusion would be contrary to WP:WEIGHT, a fundamental Wikipedia principle. Eubulides (talk) 21:39, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
- Comments
View by Ludwigs2
- Remove Cochrane Review. reading the review (as provided here), the review really says little, much less anything useful about chiropractic, and what it does say it says in a mildly biased fashion. summarizing the results, the review uses the following categories: 'sham, conventional general practitioner care, analgesics, physical therapy, exercises, back school, or a collection of therapies judged to be ineffective or even harmful'. SHAM appears to be a placebo control, but chiropractic is not mentioned in the list, and it is not obviously clear where it would fall. even if we assume that chiropractic is considered to be a form of spinal manipulation, the review concludes that "There is no evidence that spinal manipulative therapy is superior to other standard treatments", which is simply a well poisoning way of saying that spinal manipulation is roughly equal in effectiveness to conventional treatments. since we don't know the relationship between Ch and SM, and SM is roughly equivalent to conventional treatments, this review tells us absolutely nothing about Ch. --Ludwigs2 00:53, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
- The abstract says that SM comparably effective to some other standard treatments. I'm not sure why you think that is negative. Your point about chiropractic is relevant, though. Do we have any sources discussing the relationship between SM and chiropractic? Chou's review states that heat is moderately effective, and I know some chiropractors use heat. II | (t - c) 07:02, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, we have sources describing the relationship between SM and chiropractic, and Chiropractic cites them. For example, Meeker & Haldeman (2002) wrote in the Annals of Internal Medicine 137 (8), p. 702, "We agree that many of the randomized trials we described were on spinal manipulation rather than specifically on chiropractic manipulation itself, but we believe that this is not a significant point. Chiropractors use all forms of manipulation. In the United States, more than 90% of all spinal manipulation services are provided by chiropractors, and research on spinal manipulation, like that on any other treatment method, is equally of value regardless of the practitioner providing it." The course of recent mainstream research has followed this principle, without dissent by any reliable source that I know of.
- Ludwigs2's comment seems to be primarily about WP:NPOV, not WP:OR. NPOV is of course an important issue, but the RfC is about WP:OR, not WP:NPOV.
- Eubulides (talk) 17:42, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
- The abstract says that SM comparably effective to some other standard treatments. I'm not sure why you think that is negative. Your point about chiropractic is relevant, though. Do we have any sources discussing the relationship between SM and chiropractic? Chou's review states that heat is moderately effective, and I know some chiropractors use heat. II | (t - c) 07:02, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
- Include SM reviews.I find it strange that you didn't mention that Ernst raised the exact point we have at issue here, saying that these SM studies are not relevant to chiropractic necessarily. And we have separate articles with the two -- and my attempt to connect the two was reverted. Until this relationship has been clarified more extensively, it's hard to say whether general SM research is really completely relevant to chiropractic. Are the providers who are being tested in the RCTs chiropractors? Anyway, I still want to keep the SM research summarized in the article, and I think its relationship to chiropractic is decently presented. However, Ernst's point that general SM research may not apply to chiropractic SM should be noted. II | (t - c) 07:42, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- It would be appropriate to note that point and cite Ernst. Could you refresh our memories with a cited quote from Ernst about this? I don't recall his writing about it. Thanks. Eubulides (talk) 08:07, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- I see that II made an edit along these lines, but it has problems. I have started a thread about this in #Ernst, Meeker, Haldeman below. Eubulides (talk) 22:13, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- Remove Ernst and Cantor review. (subject to consideration). this review shares the same problems as the above review - it does not clearly speak to chiropractic, and its conclusion is oddly biased. if it can be demonstrated that SM and Ch are equivalent terms, this review would be useful for for pointing out the number of conditions that SM doesn't seem to work on; however, its general conclusions do not follow from its conclusions about back pain (e.g., they assert that SM is better than sham but not better than conventional treatments for back pain, but then they assert that "these data do not demonstrate that spinal manipulation is an effective intervention for any condition", which is patently false given their earlier statement. why use a source that can't be consistent over the space of three lines? --Ludwigs2 01:03, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
- Would appreciate you linking these reviews as you kindly did the other one. II | (t - c)
- sorry - I just took them from the links given above. but here you go. --Ludwigs2 07:45, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
- Here, Ludwigs2's comment seems to be primarily about WP:RS, not WP:OR. That is, Ludwigs2 seems to be primarily arguing that Ernst & Canter are contradictory and are not reliable.
- The results from Ernst & Canter 2006 (PMID 16574972) are consistent. They say that some reviews (e.g., Assendelft et al., Bronfort) say that SM is superior to sham for back pain, and that some reviews (e.g., Gross et al., Ferreira) say it's not. Their remark "Collectively these data do not demonstrate that spinal manipulation is an effective intervention for any condition" says that the overall evidence is contradictory and that SM overall has not been demonstrated to be effective. This is a consistent position.
- Eubulides (talk) 17:42, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
- Keep the reviews. It's not us to decide whether or not they apply to SM, chiropractic, or both. If the authors state that they apply, we do not as editors contradict that. Ernst & Canter have clearly stated that in the reports themselves and in other writings ( a whole chapter in Ernst & Singh's book Trick or Treatment ) that these reviews apply to the effectiveness of chiropractic. We defer to the experts. Macgruder (talk) 14:28, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- If it can be demonstrated that Ernst's non-chiropractic studies have been applied to chiropractic by Ernst (or other researchers in published research), then I agree with you, MacGruder. If the researchers apply specific non-chiropractic research to chiropractic, then we can use the research (with the context explaining who said it was applicable). I'm am definitely not arguing against the inclusion of those cases. However, do you agree that we should not use other non-chiropractic SM research where no researcher has applied its conclusions directly to chiropractic? -- Levine2112 discuss 19:49, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- It can indeed be demonstrated that Ernst & Canter 2006 (PMID 16574972) (which you call "non-chiropractic") is applied to chiropractic by published researchers. One example is the following source on chiropractic pain management, which discusses the evidence basis for spinal manipulative therapy (SMT) and uses Ernst & Canter as one of the citations supporting the claim "Recent systematic reviews have been contradictory and unable to clarify the role of SMT in spinal pain management." Here's the source: Kettner NW (2008). "Chiropractic pain management". In Audette JF, Bailey A (ed.). Contemporary Pain Medicine: Integrative Pain Medicine: The Science and Practice of Complementary and Alternative Medicine in Pain Management. Totowa, NJ: Humana. pp. 333–51. doi:10.1007/978-1-59745-344-8_16. ISBN 978-1-58829-786-0.
- This is one example, of course. More generally, though, we need not supply examples like this to support every use of a relevant source. That would simply be a recipe for excluding sources. It would tend to exclude recent sources, which are more up-to-date and therefore tend to be more-reliable, but are less-likely to be cited because they are so new. We need not wait for others to cite recent high-quality sources before citing them ourselves.
- Eubulides (talk) 20:48, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- I am honestly undecided about Ernst. But just because Ernst cites a chiropractic specific study, doesn't mean that his non-chiropractic conclusion can be applied to chiropractic. What I want to see is that for every statement which we attribute to some source, that the statement can be shown to be referring to chiropractic specifically. From WP:OR: ...to demonstrate that you are not presenting original research, you must cite reliable sources that refer directly to the topic of the article, and that directly support the information as it is presented. This means that the statements we included must be cite in direct reference to chiropractic. If we have to infer that they are about chiropractic, we have created an OR violation. If we are inferring that the research could be applied to chiropractic based on an opinion given in some other wholly different research, then we have created an SYN violation. -- Levine2112 discuss 23:36, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- What would help you decide about Ernst? Would another citation help? It should not be too hard to show from the literature that Ernst & Canter 2006 is an influential work in the study of the effectiveness of chiropractic care.
- The WP:OR part of your comment is outdated. WP:OR was recently changed to say that you must cite sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, not that refer directly. (This change was by editors I had never heard of, and I had no idea that it would happen until I just now checked WP:OR.) The change was to alter WP:OR to be more internally consistent, as WP:SYN already said "directly related". Clearly spinal manipulation is directly related to chiropractic: it's the core treatment of chiropractic, and is the reason for chiropractic's existence. There is no SYN here.
- Eubulides (talk) 19:27, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- I would like to see that Ernst is directly refering to chiropractic in the conclusions which we are using in our article. That's all really.
- I am honestly undecided about Ernst. But just because Ernst cites a chiropractic specific study, doesn't mean that his non-chiropractic conclusion can be applied to chiropractic. What I want to see is that for every statement which we attribute to some source, that the statement can be shown to be referring to chiropractic specifically. From WP:OR: ...to demonstrate that you are not presenting original research, you must cite reliable sources that refer directly to the topic of the article, and that directly support the information as it is presented. This means that the statements we included must be cite in direct reference to chiropractic. If we have to infer that they are about chiropractic, we have created an OR violation. If we are inferring that the research could be applied to chiropractic based on an opinion given in some other wholly different research, then we have created an SYN violation. -- Levine2112 discuss 23:36, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- If it can be demonstrated that Ernst's non-chiropractic studies have been applied to chiropractic by Ernst (or other researchers in published research), then I agree with you, MacGruder. If the researchers apply specific non-chiropractic research to chiropractic, then we can use the research (with the context explaining who said it was applicable). I'm am definitely not arguing against the inclusion of those cases. However, do you agree that we should not use other non-chiropractic SM research where no researcher has applied its conclusions directly to chiropractic? -- Levine2112 discuss 19:49, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- sorry - I just took them from the links given above. but here you go. --Ludwigs2 07:45, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
- I don't see much of a difference in the changed wording in terms of meaning. Ernst has stated that not all spinal manipulation studies are related to chiropractic. Thus, we cannot make the determination of which ones are related and which ones aren't related (though I would certainly like to read some insight into Ernst rationale). If we were to make the determination of which spinal manipulation research is directly related to chiropractic and which ones are not, then we would be engaged in original research. -- Levine2112 discuss 00:10, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Outside view by WhatamIdoing
The Cochrane reviews should be included. Chiropractors in general accept studies on spinal manipulation as being directly relevant for the major technique of chiropractic manipulation. The ongoing assertion at this page that Wikipedia should exclude normal scientific information from highly reputable sources simply because a given paper wasn't written by a chiropractor is absurd. WP:WEIGHT prevents the exclusion of mainstream sources. However, if you want to follow up on that theme, it might be interesting to include a point published by Ernst: whether or not a given clinical study determines that chiropractic care is effective depends significantly on whether there's a DC writing the paper (not just doing the spinal manipulation).
The Ernst and Cantor review should be included. Editors with an opposing POV may want to make a case for including this editorial about it, although I found several of the complaints to be particularly weak. They will also want to carefully consider their position: if you accept this critical commentary, then you must also accept the fact that the Ernst and Cantor review is considered, by relevant experts in chiropractic itself, to have direct connections to chiropractic.
About the difference between "same effectiveness" (for one condition) and "not effective" in general: Increasingly, the standard for effectiveness is "better than what we've already got". However, the general reader isn't going to know that, and thus the conclusions should be presented in somewhat more detail: "no more or less effective than other standard interventions for back pain." In other words, exactly like it's currently in the article. I also don't understand why this is seen as disparaging information.
In short, the inclusion of these reviews does not violate WP:OR and they do provide necessary balance under WP:WEIGHT. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:50, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
- Your argument for inclusion hinges on this statement: Chiropractors in general accept studies on spinal manipulation as being directly relevant for the major technique of chiropractic manipulation. How do you know this? Plus, is this about what chiropractors accept or what the mainstream scientific community accepts? For instance, there was a case where chiropractors were using positive conclusions from a general spinal manipulation study to state things such as "Chiropractic works!" However, the researchers involved with the study were very critical of chiropractors doing so because their research was about spinal manipulation and not about chiropractic. Dr. Paul Shekelle of RAND released this statement:
- "...we have become aware of numerous instances where our results have been seriously misrepresented by chiropractors writing for their local paper or writing letters to the editor....RAND's studies were about spinal manipulation, not chiropractic... Comparative efficacy of chiropractic and other treatments was not explicitly dealt with."
- -- Levine2112 discuss 23:51, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
- You are again confounding "spinal manipulation" (a technique) with "chiropractic" (the profession), which is the same error made by the original chiropractors mentioned above, and scolded by Shekelle for doing so. They were trying to claim that spinal manipulation research that was positive was a green card for claiming that everything the profession did "works", which is far from the truth. Much in chiropractic is rejected as fringe, unscientific quackery, and Shekelle wasn't about to allow such misuse of the RAND study. The conclusions of the study only had relevance to the major technique performed by the profession, and upon which the profession is based. Chiropractic is not equal to spinal adjustment/manipulation (SM), but "no SM, no chiropractic". Chiropractic without SM would be like a nail without a hammer. They belong together.
- We aren't discussing the RAND conflict here. We are discussing whether the subject of "spinal manipulation" is relevant to the chiropractic profession, and it is very relevant, as noted by their strong objections in the commentary mentioned above. If it were irrelevant, they would have been silent. BUT keep in mind, it is only relevant as regards the effectiveness of manipulation/adjustments, which are performed by chiropractors and thus such research is very relevant to them, even when it is about SM performed solely by non-DCs (a few such studies exist), or including a few non-DCs (usually the case). -- Fyslee / talk 04:50, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- The fact that notable chiropractors and researchers consider general research about spinal manipulation relevant for the profession is explained quite clearly by Meeker and Haldeman, as noted above by Eubulides:
- Yes, we have sources describing the relationship between SM and chiropractic, and Chiropractic cites them. For example, Meeker & Haldeman (2002) wrote in the Annals of Internal Medicine 137 (8), p. 702, "We agree that many of the randomized trials we described were on spinal manipulation rather than specifically on chiropractic manipulation itself, but we believe that this is not a significant point. Chiropractors use all forms of manipulation. In the United States, more than 90% of all spinal manipulation services are provided by chiropractors, and research on spinal manipulation, like that on any other treatment method, is equally of value regardless of the practitioner providing it." The course of recent mainstream research has followed this principle, without dissent by any reliable source that I know of.
- Neither Eubulides nor myself know of any dissenting voices in reliable sources, and I think we should follow the sources, rather than Levine2112's (or other's) personal opinion. This is not a case of OR or SYNTH. -- Fyslee / talk 06:09, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- Your explanation illustrates the WP:SYN violation beautifully. You are wanting to use Meeker's explanation to justify the inclusion of research which Meeker didn't specifically analyze. Thus you are justifying Source A by using an explanation in Source B to create an Original Statement C (that the conclusions of non-chiropractic Source A is directly applicable to chiropractic). Please note that I have no problem including Meeker or the non-chiropractic research which they analyzed and directly applied to chiropractic. This issue here is with the other non-chiropractic research which has not been directly applied to chiropractic by any researchers. Merely following the lead of Meeker here with these other non-chiropractic studies creates original research and we cannot have that. -- Levine2112 discuss 07:58, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- There is no "original statement C" in Chiropractic #Evidence basis, so there is no WP:OR there. As you note, there are original statements on this talk page; but that's OK. A talk page is allowed to contain original research, and talk pages routinely contain OR; it's only the article itself that should not contain OR. Eubulides (talk) 08:07, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- Stating or implying that conclusions from non-chiropractic spinal manipulation efficacy or safety research is directly applicable to conclusion about the efficacy or safety of chiropractic is original research. This is what we are referring to as "Original Statement C". That you are justifying such an application on the notion that Meeker & Haldeman have done it in their research is why this is a synthesis violation. -- Levine2112 discuss 17:00, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- That is not a Statement C. SM research is relevant to chiropractic. QuackGuru 17:08, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- I agree with QuackGuru. The only "Original Statement C" is on the talk page. It is not WP:OR when the only occurrence of "Original Statement C" is on the talk page. Eubulides (talk) 17:29, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- Non-chiropractic SM efficacy/safety research is directly relevant to chiropractic efficacy/safety" is an implied statement we are making in the article by basing so many conclusion in the Chiropractic article on non-chiropractic SM efficacy/safety research; whereas commenting on chiropractic was not the expressed intention of the researchers. -- Levine2112 discuss 19:39, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- WP:OR governs what is put into Chiropractic. It does not govern the myriads of inferences that a reader might make from Chiropractic. As a trivial example, a reader might infer from Chiropractic that the profession is normally called "chiropractic" and not "chiropracty", because Chiropractic consistently uses the word "chiropractic" and never uses the word "chiropracty". But this does not mean that Chiropractic is guilty of WP:OR because it does not cite a source saying that "chiropractic" is a more common term than "chiropracty". Eubulides (talk) 20:48, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- I believe that after all this time you are still missing something major at WP:OR: ...to demonstrate that you are not presenting original research, you must cite reliable sources that refer directly to the topic of the article, and that directly support the information as it is presented. So if the non-chiropractic spinal manipulation research you want to include never mentions chiropractic , then you must concede that it is a source which doesn't refer directly to the topic of the article (namely, Chiropractic). Thus you have not demonstrated that you are not presenting original research. -- Levine2112 discuss 23:30, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- Again, the WP:OR part of this comment is outdated. WP:OR's lead was recently changed to say that you must cite sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, not that refer directly. This change was for consistency, as the body said "directly related". Eubulides (talk) 19:27, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- I believe that after all this time you are still missing something major at WP:OR: ...to demonstrate that you are not presenting original research, you must cite reliable sources that refer directly to the topic of the article, and that directly support the information as it is presented. So if the non-chiropractic spinal manipulation research you want to include never mentions chiropractic , then you must concede that it is a source which doesn't refer directly to the topic of the article (namely, Chiropractic). Thus you have not demonstrated that you are not presenting original research. -- Levine2112 discuss 23:30, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- WP:OR governs what is put into Chiropractic. It does not govern the myriads of inferences that a reader might make from Chiropractic. As a trivial example, a reader might infer from Chiropractic that the profession is normally called "chiropractic" and not "chiropracty", because Chiropractic consistently uses the word "chiropractic" and never uses the word "chiropracty". But this does not mean that Chiropractic is guilty of WP:OR because it does not cite a source saying that "chiropractic" is a more common term than "chiropracty". Eubulides (talk) 20:48, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- Non-chiropractic SM efficacy/safety research is directly relevant to chiropractic efficacy/safety" is an implied statement we are making in the article by basing so many conclusion in the Chiropractic article on non-chiropractic SM efficacy/safety research; whereas commenting on chiropractic was not the expressed intention of the researchers. -- Levine2112 discuss 19:39, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- I agree with QuackGuru. The only "Original Statement C" is on the talk page. It is not WP:OR when the only occurrence of "Original Statement C" is on the talk page. Eubulides (talk) 17:29, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- That is not a Statement C. SM research is relevant to chiropractic. QuackGuru 17:08, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- Stating or implying that conclusions from non-chiropractic spinal manipulation efficacy or safety research is directly applicable to conclusion about the efficacy or safety of chiropractic is original research. This is what we are referring to as "Original Statement C". That you are justifying such an application on the notion that Meeker & Haldeman have done it in their research is why this is a synthesis violation. -- Levine2112 discuss 17:00, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- There is no "original statement C" in Chiropractic #Evidence basis, so there is no WP:OR there. As you note, there are original statements on this talk page; but that's OK. A talk page is allowed to contain original research, and talk pages routinely contain OR; it's only the article itself that should not contain OR. Eubulides (talk) 08:07, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- Your explanation illustrates the WP:SYN violation beautifully. You are wanting to use Meeker's explanation to justify the inclusion of research which Meeker didn't specifically analyze. Thus you are justifying Source A by using an explanation in Source B to create an Original Statement C (that the conclusions of non-chiropractic Source A is directly applicable to chiropractic). Please note that I have no problem including Meeker or the non-chiropractic research which they analyzed and directly applied to chiropractic. This issue here is with the other non-chiropractic research which has not been directly applied to chiropractic by any researchers. Merely following the lead of Meeker here with these other non-chiropractic studies creates original research and we cannot have that. -- Levine2112 discuss 07:58, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- Neither Eubulides nor myself know of any dissenting voices in reliable sources, and I think we should follow the sources, rather than Levine2112's (or other's) personal opinion. This is not a case of OR or SYNTH. -- Fyslee / talk 06:09, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- WP:OR: or if the sources cited are not directly related to the subject of the article, then the editor is engaged in original research.
- Spinal manipulation is directly related to chiropractic. QuackGuru 00:31, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- Related? Yes. Directly related? Well that's the topic of this debate. Meeker & Haldeman said it was okay for them to confound non-chiropractic SM research to draw conclusions about chiropractic; however, Ernst disagrees with them. So, according to the sources, it is questionable whether non-chiropractic spinal manipulation is directly related to chiropractic spinal manipulation. Let's look at the whole quote form WP:OR which you have mentioned: If the sources cited do not explicitly reach the same conclusion, or if the sources cited are not directly related to the subject of the article, then the editor is engaged in original research. Well, if a source is about non-chiropractic spinal manipulation and we are using it to draw conclusions about chiropractic spinal manipulation, then you have to admit that the source cited does not explicitly reach the same conclusion as that which we are presenting in the article. -- Levine2112 discuss 00:39, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- I have explained it before that spinal manipulation is directly related to chiropractic and therefore it is reasonable to include it in this article. QuackGuru 00:46, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- Just because you explained it, does not make it true. I have show that several leading researchers disagree with you. So once again: Related? Yes. Directly related? That is a matter of debate. We can refer to the debate in our article, but we cannot perform original research based on the opinions of one side in the debate. Sorry. -- Levine2112 discuss 00:58, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- I do not see several researchers disagreeing with OR guidelines. It is reasonable to include related research. QuackGuru 01:07, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- Several researchers disagree with your position that non-chiro SM research is directly related to chiro SM research. Thus inclusion of non-chiro SM research in a section about Chiropractic effectiveness is a violation of WP:OR. -- Levine2112 discuss 01:22, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- I know spinal manipulation is related to chiropractic. It is obvious that SM research is related to chiropractic. And the outside view at the NOR noticeboard supports the inclusion of the related text. QuackGuru 01:35, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- I'm sorry but you opinion means very little in terms of if non-chiro SM research is directly related to chiro SM. We must rely on the sources. Currently the sources show that there is disagreement on whether or not it is directly related. And yes, one outside view (from a newbie editor) at NOR agreed with your position. However, two outside views from more experienced editors agreed with my position. That's kind of a weak point on your point. Especially in the face of the current RfC which show majority support of my position. Sorry again. -- Levine2112 discuss 01:39, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- The views from editors who agreed with Levine2112's position never provided any specific examples of OR. Specific examples are needed. QuackGuru 01:43, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, keep insisting that no examples were given, even though it is plainly obvious to everyone else that specific example were given and are even now currently being discussed (Murphy, Ernst, Cochrance, Haldeman & Meeker). Despite flying in the face of reality, you are doing a tremendous job of holding firmly to your position. -- Levine2112 discuss 01:49, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- Those researchers are not specific examples of OR. The views who claim there is OR have not demonstrated any OR. I request specific examples. Exactly which sentence is OR and why. QuackGuru 01:55, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- Until you are ready to accept the possibility that your opinions on the specific example which I have provided may be wrong, then there is really nothing further to discuss with you here. -- Levine2112 discuss 02:36, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- I request a specific example of OR and how it is OR. This is a simple request. A specific example of OR would be a specific sentence that is not verfified. Please explain exactly which sentence is OR and why. I hope this was helpful. QuackGuru 16:10, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- I have provided you with an example above. That you don't think it is a good example is beyond my power. Regardless, I have provided an example. Every outside commentator in this RfC agrees that there is an OR violation. Please respect their opinions. -- Levine2112 discuss 17:31, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- I request a specific example of OR and how it is OR. This is a simple request. A specific example of OR would be a specific sentence that is not verfified. Please explain exactly which sentence is OR and why. I hope this was helpful. QuackGuru 16:10, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- Until you are ready to accept the possibility that your opinions on the specific example which I have provided may be wrong, then there is really nothing further to discuss with you here. -- Levine2112 discuss 02:36, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- Those researchers are not specific examples of OR. The views who claim there is OR have not demonstrated any OR. I request specific examples. Exactly which sentence is OR and why. QuackGuru 01:55, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, keep insisting that no examples were given, even though it is plainly obvious to everyone else that specific example were given and are even now currently being discussed (Murphy, Ernst, Cochrance, Haldeman & Meeker). Despite flying in the face of reality, you are doing a tremendous job of holding firmly to your position. -- Levine2112 discuss 01:49, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- I'm sorry but you opinion means very little in terms of if non-chiro SM research is directly related to chiro SM. We must rely on the sources. Currently the sources show that there is disagreement on whether or not it is directly related. And yes, one outside view (from a newbie editor) at NOR agreed with your position. However, two outside views from more experienced editors agreed with my position. That's kind of a weak point on your point. Especially in the face of the current RfC which show majority support of my position. Sorry again. -- Levine2112 discuss 01:39, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- Several researchers disagree with your position that non-chiro SM research is directly related to chiro SM research. Thus inclusion of non-chiro SM research in a section about Chiropractic effectiveness is a violation of WP:OR. -- Levine2112 discuss 01:22, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- Just because you explained it, does not make it true. I have show that several leading researchers disagree with you. So once again: Related? Yes. Directly related? That is a matter of debate. We can refer to the debate in our article, but we cannot perform original research based on the opinions of one side in the debate. Sorry. -- Levine2112 discuss 00:58, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- Related? Yes. Directly related? Well that's the topic of this debate. Meeker & Haldeman said it was okay for them to confound non-chiropractic SM research to draw conclusions about chiropractic; however, Ernst disagrees with them. So, according to the sources, it is questionable whether non-chiropractic spinal manipulation is directly related to chiropractic spinal manipulation. Let's look at the whole quote form WP:OR which you have mentioned: If the sources cited do not explicitly reach the same conclusion, or if the sources cited are not directly related to the subject of the article, then the editor is engaged in original research. Well, if a source is about non-chiropractic spinal manipulation and we are using it to draw conclusions about chiropractic spinal manipulation, then you have to admit that the source cited does not explicitly reach the same conclusion as that which we are presenting in the article. -- Levine2112 discuss 00:39, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) QuackGuru is correct here. We need a specific example of wording in the article that contains OR which is not supported by the cited source. So far, no such examples have been supplied. Also, it is not correct that "Every outside commentator in this RfC agrees that there is an OR violation." So far, we've seen two outside commentators, Ludwigs2 and WhatamIdoing. WhatamIdoing clearly supports the material in question. Ludwigs2 opposes inclusion, but mostly on WP:NPOV and WP:WEIGHT grounds; those are different issues than the question raised by the RfC. Eubulides (talk) 19:27, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- Sorry. I got my RfC confused. The RfC above this one - which deals in generalities of OR existing in this specific section of the article - received comments from several outsiders, all of whom agreed that the section contains OR. There, in that RfC, the Murphy et al example was provided. This RfC deals with specific examples and doesn't strike at the core of the dispute - that in general, since there is no agreement in the scientific community that non-chiro SM research is directly relevant to chiro SM conclusions, by including such conclusions from non-chiro SM research in our Wikipedia article on Chiropractic violates WP:NOR. You will also note that the majority of respondents to the first RfC were in favor of moving the non-chiro SM research supported statements to the more apropos Spinal manipulation article. Please at least acknowledge these results from the first RfC. -- Levine2112 discuss 19:55, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- OK, so we agree that the current RfC does not currently support the WP:OR claim.
- The previous RfC has comments from two uninvolved editors. One (MaxPont) supports moving SM material to the SM article, but does not say why; this is not agreement that the section contains WP:OR. The other (Martinphi) conditioned his response on whether the facts are properly presented in the RfC; this fairly slender reed would be stronger if Martinphi had read the section in question, but Martinphi unfortunately has not have the time to digest it.
- I myself have proposed trimming down Chiropractic #Evidence basis and moving some of its details to a subarticle. I am not opposed to that, nor is this RfC about that. This RfC is about whether it's OR to discuss spinal manipulation in Chiropractic, and to support the discussion with reliable sources on spinal manipulation.
- The Murphy et al. example was not part of the previous RfC. It is part of later commentary on the RfC, and no outsider has commented on Murphy et al.
- The specific examples in this RfC are the sources that are at the core of the dispute. It is better for RfCs to be specific, e.g., by proposing specific wording changes; otherwise, their conclusions are less useful.
- Eubulides (talk) 20:58, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- No. The current RfC neither supports or refutes the OR claim. Some commentators don't recognizethe OR violation while some commentators do.
- While I too wish MaxPont elaborated in his two responses, I believe it is clear that he feels that there is an OR problems here and that the material would be better located at the more general spinal manipulation article. MartinPhi's response is thorough. I don't think it is fair of you to assess that he didn't read the section in question. He may not have fact-checked every source, but his response accounts for that by stating that if what the RfC says about the sources in question is true, then he recognizes that there is an OR issue.
- Trimming is fine, especially if you are cutting out the non-chiropractic SM studies which currently may be in violation of OR. The ideal article to move them to is spinal manipulation as these are studies about spinal manipulation in general and not as performed by any specific kind of practitioner. Moving them to an article specifically about chiropractic adjustments or to a newly created article about chiropractic effectiveness, would essentially be moving the same OR problem to a different article.
- The Murphy example was added to that RfC just after you requested of me to provide a specific example.
- That RfC did propose a specific solution and that was moving the information sourced to general spinal manipulation research to the more apropos spinal manipulation article. I believe that every respondent was in favor of this proposal.
- -- Levine2112 discuss 23:48, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- Martinphi wrote "I have not digested the section in question. However, if the facts are properly presented above"; it's quite clear that this opinion is based on the wording in the RfC, and not on any careful reading of what's in Chiropractic.
- MaxPont's comment says nothing about OR; it does not support the claim that there is OR here.
- The Murphy example is not part of the RfC. It is part of later commentary on the RfC.
- The RfC did not specifically identify which sources were "general spinal manipulation research", and as such, it does not propose a specific solution.
- Trimming should use the WP:SUMMARY style, which should summarize everything of interest in this section.
- Eubulides (talk) 07:11, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
- When I say I didn't digest the section, that is because in order for my response to be incorrect, the RfC would have to be basically very wrong in its presentation of the facts. There is no reason I should read all the sources to respond here. I did read enough of the section to see that articles which are not really about chiro are being used. If there aren't sources specifically saying "this study of SM would apply equally to chiro," we have no business using them to draw conclusions about chiro. this has sub-sections which are clearly about SM, and at the very least to the extent they are being presented at the Chiropratic article, but may or may not be relevant, they are SYNTH/OR. The material is for a SM article, not Chiro. So, I think my comments relevant, unless you have specific reasons for saying they are not.
- Thus, I think that you should simply cut the material, not summarize. You should only keep what is actually sourced to documents which discuss Chrio. But there should be a link to the SM article. The issue is a simple one of policy, not a content dispute in which I would have had to understand the sources and the way they are being used. If you're using sources which aren't about chrio, but about SM, then keep it for the SM article. Keep and use any good sources which talk about the relationship of Chrio to SM in general. But discuss SM only in another article when it is not directly about Chiro SM. ——Martinphi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 02:38, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
NPOV
Welcome back, QuackGuru. However, I disagree with all or almost all of the changes in this edit. Per NPOV, Wikipedia articles must not state opinions as if they are facts. This is a core policy and is more important than whether the text flows smoothly etc. Please get consensus on the talk page before making this sort of change which significantly changes the meaning and causes the article to make bold assertions. Re the survey: as you've worded it here, it makes it sound as if the survey established as fact that a certain percentage of chiropractors are unethical, when all it did was establish that a certain percentage of people believe that chiropractors are unethical. Please get agreement on the talk page on the wording about the survery before inserting it into the article. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 13:28, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
- Agreed. It's troubling that QuackGuru's first action back after 100 hour disciplinary ban is to make broad reverts without trying to gain consensus. Many of his edits (such as removing the SYN banner from the Effectiveness section) flies in the face of the ongoing RfCs. -- Levine2112 discuss 17:21, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
- Coppertwig, thanks for catching the wording problem about the survey. To fix the problem I just now proposed new text in #Gallup poll above. I agree with Levine2112 that it's premature to remove the SYN tag. I disagree with Coppertwig about the Simon-says text; that's something I'd like to take up in a later thread. Eubulides (talk) 17:42, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
- I reverted QG's defiant edits twice now. He tried removing the SYN tag (for which there is agreement that it should remain) and tried to add in premature Gallup text which is currently being discussed. Would requesting a topic ban of QuackGuru be unfounded? -- Levine2112 discuss 18:38, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
- I do not support a topic ban for QuackGuru. The specific Gallup text was not disputed until after he added it, and it's not clear that he knows of Coppertwig's later remarks about it. The SYN tag is arguable, and it's not unreasonable to remove it, though I myself think it should stay for now. Eubulides (talk) 19:22, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
- Oppose topic ban.
I don't see any good reason for the SYN tag now that we've already put this question to NOR/N: a tag should be related to a process with some hope of resolution. I'm not aware of agreement that the tag remain after the NOR/N discussion.(23:20, 17 September 2008 (UTC)) Boldly adding proposed text for which some support has been expressed is not unreasonable. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 21:02, 17 September 2008 (UTC)- With respect to the SYN tag, I want to make sure that Coppertwig is aware of the two directly related RfCs taking place on this page. Both of them are calling into question whether or not there is a SYN/OR violation in the section. At this time, all of the outside editors responding believe that there is an OR violation. Further, please note that the NOR/N (still open) has received input from other editors and currently there are more editors agreeing that there is an SYN/OR problem with the Effectiveness section. Given this, do you still feel that the SYN tag is unwarranted/unnecessary? -- Levine2112 discuss 22:02, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
- Oh, sorry. I wasn't aware of all that. I saw the RfC but forgot about it when commenting above, sorry. I did a partial revert and didn't restore the tag; that was because I was taking a neutral position on the tag, not from any intention to remove it.☺ Coppertwig (talk) 23:20, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
- I appreciate your neutrality. I am going to add an OR tag to the section rather than the more specific SYN tag. -- Levine2112 discuss 23:26, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
- Oh, sorry. I wasn't aware of all that. I saw the RfC but forgot about it when commenting above, sorry. I did a partial revert and didn't restore the tag; that was because I was taking a neutral position on the tag, not from any intention to remove it.☺ Coppertwig (talk) 23:20, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
- With respect to the SYN tag, I want to make sure that Coppertwig is aware of the two directly related RfCs taking place on this page. Both of them are calling into question whether or not there is a SYN/OR violation in the section. At this time, all of the outside editors responding believe that there is an OR violation. Further, please note that the NOR/N (still open) has received input from other editors and currently there are more editors agreeing that there is an SYN/OR problem with the Effectiveness section. Given this, do you still feel that the SYN tag is unwarranted/unnecessary? -- Levine2112 discuss 22:02, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
- I reverted QG's defiant edits twice now. He tried removing the SYN tag (for which there is agreement that it should remain) and tried to add in premature Gallup text which is currently being discussed. Would requesting a topic ban of QuackGuru be unfounded? -- Levine2112 discuss 18:38, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
- Coppertwig, thanks for catching the wording problem about the survey. To fix the problem I just now proposed new text in #Gallup poll above. I agree with Levine2112 that it's premature to remove the SYN tag. I disagree with Coppertwig about the Simon-says text; that's something I'd like to take up in a later thread. Eubulides (talk) 17:42, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) Levine2112's summary of the NOR/N discussion is misleading.
- Only one previously-uninvolved editor responded to the NOR/N, namely User:Calamitybrook. That editor firmly stated that there was no OR here (see, for example [8]).
- The other editors who posted in that thread (Dematt, DigitalC, Fyslee, Levine2112, QuackGuru, TheDoctorIsIn, Soyuz113, Surturz, and myself) were all veterans of the discussion here first, and largely just repeated that discussion there.
- The NOR/N discussion suffers from two other procedural issues:
- Levine2112 wrote Surturz, recruiting Surturz to NOR/N, after Surturz had jumped in at Chiropractic by tagging Chiropractic#Vaccination with {{POV-section}}, and making several comments here strongly criticizing the section on WP:POV grounds.[9][10][11].
- User:Soyuz113 has since been blocked indefinitely as a sockpuppet of User:CorticoSpinal/User:EBDCM/etc. Chiropractic has had significant problems with sockpuppet and abusive accounts, unfortunately, and it appears that this affected the discussion noted above.
In short, the NOR/N discussion supported removing the SYN tag. Levine2112 disagreed with that removal, and initiated an RfC here to reverse it. Eubulides (talk) 08:07, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks for your summary, Eubulides. I've been too busy to keep up with all the discussions here. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 13:36, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- I wouldn't rely on the accuracy of this summary though. -- Levine2112 discuss 15:56, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- What summary should editors rely on. QuackGuru 16:31, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- I wouldn't rely on the accuracy of this summary though. -- Levine2112 discuss 15:56, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks for your summary, Eubulides. I've been too busy to keep up with all the discussions here. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 13:36, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- Surturz was uninvolved in this OR discussion before the NORN. He was basically brand new to Chiropractic. I also don't think that TheDoctorIsIn had weighed in on the OR issue either before the NORN. -- Levine2112 discuss 23:40, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- Surturz was selectively recruited by Levine2112 to the NORN discussion. This introduced bias to the discussion, bias that Levine2112 did not disclose. User:TheDoctorIsIn had previously contributed his two cents on this issue to this talk page, here. Both users are clearly partisans in favor of chiropractic, and neither can be considered to be uninvolved. In contrast, Calamitybrook was involved, was unfamiliar with the issue ahead of time, asked pertinent questions, and came up with an outside opinion. Eubulides (talk) 19:27, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- TheDoctorIsIn has vandalized the chiropractic article and Levine2112 recruited Surturz for comment. QuackGuru 16:36, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- Levine2112 previously agreed with Dematt against having a RFC and the outside opinion at the NOR noticeboard is that there was no OR. There was consensus at the noticeboard for removing the tag. There was a RFC for adding a lot of this specific information to the article. The outside view was to include the information. It was for the better. QuackGuru 13:54, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- I feel that QuackGuru is distorting the truth or just making things up here. I was opposed to a particular RfC before, but I support the RfCs currently taking place. The outcome of the NOR noticeboard thus far is that more editors feel there is in fact an OR problem. And there never was a consensus at the noticeboard to remove the tag. Further, I don't know which RfC you are speaking of when you state that "The outside view was to include the information. It was for the better." Can you point me to it? -- Levine2112 discuss 19:42, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- As mentioned above, the NOR noticeboard mostly consisted of editors who were already involved here. The only uninvolved editor, after asking some questions about the situation, came down firmly on the side that there is no WP:OR problem here. I expect this is consensus that QuackGuru is referring to here. Obviously there was a dispute on this talk page, and the dispute carried over to NOR, but the opinion by the only uninvolved editor was clear. Eubulides (talk) 20:48, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- I feel that QuackGuru is distorting the truth or just making things up here. I was opposed to a particular RfC before, but I support the RfCs currently taking place. The outcome of the NOR noticeboard thus far is that more editors feel there is in fact an OR problem. And there never was a consensus at the noticeboard to remove the tag. Further, I don't know which RfC you are speaking of when you state that "The outside view was to include the information. It was for the better." Can you point me to it? -- Levine2112 discuss 19:42, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- Levine2112 wrote in part: I was opposed to a particular RfC before, but I support the RfCs currently taking place.
- Why Levine2112 opposed an early RFC then supported a newer RFC. Hmm.
- The RFC Levine2112 disagreed with is the RFC that supported the inclusion of the text.
- Some editors may feel there is OR but have NOT explained which specific sentence is OR or how it is OR.
- This edit summary was rude. There was consensus at the noticeboard to remove the tag.
- The outside view at the NOR noticeboard was to include the information. QuackGuru 20:59, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- Which RfC did I not support that ended up supporting the inclusion? Please point us to that. I think it may be a self-induced hallucination. At the NOR we heard from several outside editors. The majority agree that there was an OR violation. The one new editor who dissented was a newbie. I am sorry that you found my edit summary rude. If I could erase it, I would. But the fact remains that you were blocked at the time. -- Levine2112 discuss 23:11, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- This is an inaccurate summary of the NOR/N discussion. Only one previously-uninvolved editor responded, namely User:Calamitybrook. That editor firmly stated that there was no OR here (see, for example [12]). The other editors who posted in that thread (Dematt, DigitalC, Fyslee, Levine2112, QuackGuru, TheDoctorIsIn, Soyuz113, Surturz, and myself) were all veterans of the discussion here first, and largely just repeated that discussion there. Eubulides (talk) 19:27, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- Which RfC did I not support that ended up supporting the inclusion? Please point us to that. I think it may be a self-induced hallucination. At the NOR we heard from several outside editors. The majority agree that there was an OR violation. The one new editor who dissented was a newbie. I am sorry that you found my edit summary rude. If I could erase it, I would. But the fact remains that you were blocked at the time. -- Levine2112 discuss 23:11, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- Eubulides, please stop with this misrepresentation of the NOR/N. As was mentioned over there, it is hardly accurate to call someone who has edited this article 3 times in the day before heading over to WP:NOR/N an "involved" editor.
Please also provide evidence that TheDoctorIsIn has previously provided input on this issue.[edited: found above] DigitalC (talk) 02:03, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
- Eubulides, please stop with this misrepresentation of the NOR/N. As was mentioned over there, it is hardly accurate to call someone who has edited this article 3 times in the day before heading over to WP:NOR/N an "involved" editor.
- The RFC Levine2112 disagreed with ended up supporting the inclusion of various newly added information commented by outside observers.
- At the NOR we did not heard from several outside editors. There were mostly involved editors.
- The editors who claim there was an OR violation have not explained specifically which sentence is OR and how it is OR. QuackGuru 23:21, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- Note that QuackGuru still hasn't pointed to any RfC which supported inclusion of the text in question. -- Levine2112 discuss 23:26, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- Note that Levine2112 previously rejected a RFC that outside observers agreed to the newly added information at the time and now Levine2112 supports a newer RFC in question. QuackGuru 23:40, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- QuackGuru still evades providing us with the linchpin to his argument; that there was some mysterious other RfC which I didn't support that ending up forming some phantom consensus about including the material in question. Until QuackGuru can provide a link to such an RfC (or retracts the statement that such an RfC exists), I really don't feel that his false-accusations are worth a response. -- Levine2112 discuss 23:44, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- Please see my previous comment, click on the link, and read Levine2112's comment about the RFC. The link also has comments from outside observers. QuackGuru 00:04, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- QuackGuru still evades providing us with the linchpin to his argument; that there was some mysterious other RfC which I didn't support that ending up forming some phantom consensus about including the material in question. Until QuackGuru can provide a link to such an RfC (or retracts the statement that such an RfC exists), I really don't feel that his false-accusations are worth a response. -- Levine2112 discuss 23:44, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- Note that Levine2112 previously rejected a RFC that outside observers agreed to the newly added information at the time and now Levine2112 supports a newer RFC in question. QuackGuru 23:40, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- Note that QuackGuru still hasn't pointed to any RfC which supported inclusion of the text in question. -- Levine2112 discuss 23:26, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Assert facts
NPOV states "Assert facts, including facts about opinions—but do not assert the opinions themselves" (emphasis in the original). Therefore the following points:
I oppose removing the word "considered" from this sentence: "For most of its existence chiropractic has battled with mainstream medicine, sustained by ideas such as subluxation that are considered significant barriers to scientific progress within chiropractic." Removing the word "considered" has the effect of making the Wikipedia article state as if it's fact that the idea of subluxation is a significant barrier to scientific progress. This is merely an opinion, not a widely-accepted fact.
I oppose deleting "what are characterized as" from "Serious research to test chiropractic theories did not begin until the 1970s, and was hampered by what are characterized as antiscientific and pseudoscientific ideas that sustained the profession in its long battle with organized medicine", because to do so transforms the sentence into one which asserts that the ideas are antiscientific and pseudoscientific, which again is opinion. This has been discussed previously.
Similarly, I oppose deleting "what is considered by many chiropractic researchers to be" before "antiscientific reasoning".
I oppose changing "have been called ethically suspect" to "are ethically suspect". Again, do not assert opinions.
I added a sidebox to previous discussion. There, Eubulides makes the points that "antiscientific" is the most common term used in the sources for this; carries its usual meaning; and describes a position critical of science and the scientific method. While these are good points, I still contend that it would be surprising to find chiropractors describing themselves as "antiscientific" and that this term therefore does not have a neutral tone. If it's established as fact that chiropractors are critical of science and the scientific method, then that can be stated in those words. I can imagine a chiropractor (at one end of the spectrum) stating that they reject the scientific method and do not consider that they require proof for their assertions; I cannot imagine them saying of themselves that they are "antiscientific" and using "unsubstantiated claims". If something is asserted as fact by the Wikipedia article it must be done with words with an "impartial tone" per NPOV. Eubulides also argues that "ethically suspect" is part of the mainstream consensus. I argue that a statement of ethics must necessarily be a statement of opinion, not fact, and therefore requires attribution. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 21:36, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
- Agreed. -- Levine2112 discuss 23:45, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
- Agreed. Attribution is proper here. We can't state as fact what is an (accurate) opinion. It happens to be the opinion of mainstream science and of many notable progressive chiropractors who are not mired in the mud of ancient "straight" biotheological dogma, and it should be attributed to them, not stated as fact. The only ones who question it is large numbers of old-fashioned chiropractors who are concerned with preserving the fringe, independent, antiscientific identity of the profession as what it is. Both POV should be presented and this part presents the mainstream POV and should be attributed accordingly. We have plenty of chiropractic sources which express such POV, which makes the case against a conspiracy against chiropractic even stronger. Chiropractors themselves are protesting hanging onto ancient dogma. As Carter, former Canadian Chiropractic Association President stated:
- "Subluxation, though a vital part of our history has been described as the Achilles Heel of our profession. When you review the available literature and combine it with knowledge of our history, it quickly shows where the subluxation model has failed. This model has cost us years of positive growth."[9]
- Keep in mind that Vertebral subluxation remains unsubstantiated and largely untested, and a debate about whether to keep it in the chiropractic paradigm has been ongoing for decades. In general, critics of traditional subluxation-based chiropractic (including chiropractors) are skeptical of its clinical value, dogmatic beliefs and metaphysical approach.[10][11]
- -- Fyslee / talk 05:24, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
WP:NPOV does not require the Simon-says style being proposed here. When WP:NPOV says "Assert facts, including facts about opinions—but do not assert the opinions themselves." it immediately goes on to define "fact" to mean "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute" and "opinion" to mean "a matter which is subject to dispute", and by "dispute" they clearly mean "serious dispute". There is no serious dispute among reliable sources about the items being being discussed in this section. (There is dispute by some Wikipedia editors, but we editors do not count as reliable sources.) Therefore, by WP:NPOV's own definition, these items are "facts" and not "opinions". (PS. Earlier I was confused about this, because I was using a different definition of "opinion" and "fact", not the definitions that WP:NPOV uses.) Eubulides (talk) 08:07, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- Per WP:ASF, when there is no serious disagreement or dispute among reliable sources there is not a requirement to add the unnecessary Simon says attribution. QuackGuru 13:34, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- Assert facts, including facts about opinions—but do not assert the opinions themselves. By "fact" we mean "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute." For example, that a survey produced a certain published result would be a fact. That there is a planet called Mars is a fact. That Plato was a philosopher is a fact. No one seriously disputes any of these things. So we can feel free to assert as many of them as we can.
- See WP:ASF.
- Wikipedia has a defintion of a fact versus an opinion. When reliable sources agree we can assert it as fact.
- Please provide references for any serious dispute. If no disputed references are presented it can be deemed as fact.
- When we deem it as a fact then we can assert. QuackGuru 18:10, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
- I don't deem it to be a fact. Something doesn't become a fact simply because one publication asserts it. Provide proof that it's widely accepted and that there is no serious dispute about it. The facts referred to in the Wikipedia policy are things like "there is a planet called Mars": i.e. fact-like statements, not statements of opinion or judgement, and not things that only one or a few publications have even mentioned at all. Silence does not equal consent. Note in the NPOV policy where it says "For example, that a survey produced a certain published result would be a fact." That endorses indirect quotation, not statement of the conclusion of the survey as if it's fact. Just because some Wikipedian editors believe something is true doesn't mean the Wikipedia article can assert it as if it's true. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 22:42, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
- This is not a fact "simply because one publication asserts it". It is a fact because it's widely accepted. It's in the most widely-used textbook on chiropractic, a standard and widely-accepted source. It's been published several times by Keating, the leading historian of chiropractic of the past two decades. It appears in peer-reviewed journal articles. No reliable sources disagree with it. Whether a particular Wikipedia editor deems it to be a fact is not that important; if that were the case, a Simon-says style would be required for "there is a planet called Mars" if just one Wikipedia editor disagreed with that fact. What matters is what reliable sources say. And there is no dispute among reliable sources here; we have several high-quality reliable sources agreeing. Eubulides (talk) 07:11, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
- I don't deem it to be a fact. Something doesn't become a fact simply because one publication asserts it. Provide proof that it's widely accepted and that there is no serious dispute about it. The facts referred to in the Wikipedia policy are things like "there is a planet called Mars": i.e. fact-like statements, not statements of opinion or judgement, and not things that only one or a few publications have even mentioned at all. Silence does not equal consent. Note in the NPOV policy where it says "For example, that a survey produced a certain published result would be a fact." That endorses indirect quotation, not statement of the conclusion of the survey as if it's fact. Just because some Wikipedian editors believe something is true doesn't mean the Wikipedia article can assert it as if it's true. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 22:42, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
- Based on Wikipedia's defintion of a fact we can assert the text when no serious disagreement exist among reliable sources. Per WP:ASF, No one seriously disputes any of these things. So we can feel free to assert as many of them as we can. According to WP:ASF, we can assert it as long as no serious disagreement exist from reliable sources. An opinion is when sources disagree with one another. Please provide evidence of a serious dispute among reliable sources or we can assert it as fact when reliable sources are in agreement. When there is no serious dispute, we can assert it. QuackGuru 22:56, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
- That doesn't apply just to RS but to editors as well. When Editor 2 challenges an edit made by Editor 1 (who is proposing the edit), then Editor 1 must provide a source to justify the edit. Of course if Editor 1 has edited in the fact that Mars is a planet, and Editor 2 keeps objecting to that fact (not about the appropriateness of the edit) despite other editors stating it's an obvious fact to all intelligent people, then we're dealing with an editor (2) who is being obstructive and disruptive. Attribution and sourcing are necessary both for readers and for editors. -- Fyslee / talk 23:36, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
- According to what policy attribution is necessary in this case? Your opinion does not make policy. Per WP:ASF, we can assert it when there is no serious dispute. Please provide references of a serious dispute. QuackGuru 23:42, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
- Your interpretation of policy is flawed. WP:ASF also states that "There are many propositions that very clearly express values or opinions. That stealing is wrong is a value or opinion.". It doesn't matter if there are (reliable) sources of a dispute if the statement clearly expresses an opinion. DigitalC (talk) 01:49, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
- According to what policy attribution is necessary in this case? Your opinion does not make policy. Per WP:ASF, we can assert it when there is no serious dispute. Please provide references of a serious dispute. QuackGuru 23:42, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
- Did you forget to include the first part of that paragraph. By value or opinion,[12] on the other hand, we mean "a matter which is subject to dispute."
- There is no evidence of "a matter which is subject to dispute."
- We should not apply Simon-says attribution every time an editor doesn't like what the source says. QuackGuru 04:40, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Two Techniques sections?
This edit added a new section Chiropractic #Techniques. But there already is a section Chiropractic #Treatment techniques on the same subject, and the latter section is a brief summary of Chiropractic treatment techniques, using the Wikipedia summary style. The newly-added material should be moved to Chiropractic treatment techniques, no? At best a very brief summary would belong in Chiropractic #Treatment techniques. (Also, it's better to propose extensive or possibly-controversial changes like these on the talk page first, to avoid problems like this.) Eubulides (talk) 08:30, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- Having two sections is like having two articles. Is there anything worth merging into the original Techniques section. If not, then we should delete the second section. QuackGuru 13:37, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- I've merged the two sections, and trimmed a lot of the non-chiro modalities from the first section. Looked like a verbatim quote from a poll to me, and was ugly and uninformative text. I think a one-line description of the various schools/techniques of chiropractic is a definite improvement to the article. I have avoided language that implies that the techniques do or don't work, that should be covered in the other section (if at all). --Surturz (talk) 15:09, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- Consensus material was deleted and the possibly controversial material was merged. QuackGuru 15:17, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- I do like the new material's addition of adjustive techniques; I think they should be briefly covered in Chiropractic though of course the details should be in the subarticle. Thanks, Surturz, for adding discussion of adjustive techniques.
- As the poll shows, the removed techniques are received by more chiropractic patients than the newly-added techniques. I don't know why they would be considered to be "non-chiro modalities". I made an edit to restore them. I also reorganized the newly-added list to include all adjustive techniques received by more than 20% of patients in that survey: that is a better way to generate the list than to use our own opinion to include or exclude mention of techniques. This edit also uses a more-reliable source, namely Cooperstein & Gleberzon's textbook on treatment techniques (ISBN 0443074135).
- As a style issue, this latest edit uses an inline list rather than a bullet list, for consistency with the rest of the section. The question of which list style to use was discussed at some length in Talk:Chiropractic/Archive 25 #Treatment procedures diagram; it would help to review that discussion before proposing a change in style here. Whatever style we use, we should use consistently for both lists of treatments.
- Hope this helps. Eubulides (talk) 17:29, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- (outdent) I hope this is not controversial, but I have move the criterion for inclusion (used by 20% or more) to a hidden comment for editors. It is good to have an objective criteria to avoid bias, but the detail of that criterion is distracting. I've also bolded the list items, I prefer bullet points, but since Eubulides doesn't like it, this is a compromise. I still think the paragraph is hard to read as is. --Surturz (talk) 05:01, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Confusing sentence
"Although a 2008 critical review found that with the possible exception of back pain, chiropractic SM has not been shown to be effective for any medical condition, and suggested that many guidelines recommend chiropractic care for low back pain because no therapy has been shown to make a real difference,[86] a 2008 supportive review found serious flaws in the critical approach, and found that SM and mobilization are at least as effective for chronic low back pain as other efficacious and commonly used treatments.[87]"
I'm confused by this sentence. What does the 'critical approach' mean? Is that in general or in reference to the previous critical review. Does it refer to Ernst review paper of review papers? The fact that many studies are flawed doesn't mean a review study can't come to a significant conclusion. I'm not sure why Ernst's conclusion is reduced to a subordinate clause. He's the one with the major review study.
It reads very different if you write it:
"Although a 2008 supportive review found serious flaws in the critical approach, and found that SM and mobilization are at least as effective for chronic low back pain as other efficacious and commonly used treatments, a major review study by Ernst concluded that though studies by chiropractors tended to have positive outcomes, SM was not a recommended treatment for any condition"
For example,
Treatment X is tested 500 times. 450 times the tests are flawed, and many of these tests support X. 50 tests are found not to be flawed. Review studies that focus on these 50 conclude Treatment X doesn't work
How would we write this:
"Although review studies of Treatment X showed it to be ineffective, a report found serious flaws in the critical approach". I don't think so. I'm NOT saying that this is the case here, but I see no major paper as yet contradicting Ernst's critical review of critical reviews.
Ernst himself also concluded that C was as effective for lower back-pain as other treatment but pointed out that it was far more expensive and possibly had more side-effects - hence the systematic review of systematic reviews conclusion that . Macgruder (talk) 17:50, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks for your comments. It is helpful to have another pair of eyes carefully read the sources and suggest improvements to the article. In response to your comments:
- The phrase "critical approach" is intended to refer to the approach taken in Ernst's 2008 critical review (PMID 18280103), an approach that was also taken Ernst & Canter 2006 (PMID 16574972). The "flaws" refer to flaws in Ernst & Canter, not flaws in the reviews that they review. Bronfort et al. 2008 (PMID 18164469) write:
- "A recent review of systematic reviews of RCTs on SMT by Ernst and Canter concluded that SMT is not an effective intervention and given the possibility of adverse effects, suggests that SMT is not a recommendable treatment (PMID 18280103). The Ernst review is severely limited in its approach because of an incomplete quality assessment, lack of prespecified rules to evaluate the evidence, and several erroneous assumptions (PMID 16887028). Ernst goes further to conclude that bias exists in systematic reviews performed by chiropractors, particularly members of our group. We refuted this assertion (PMID 16887028), and have attempted to be as transparent as possible in our methodology, which details a priori defined standard and acceptable methods for conducting systematic reviews (PMID 7933399, PMID 12829562)."
- I hope this helps to clarify the current wording. If it doesn't, could you please suggest improvements to make it clearer?
- Re "Ernst himself also concluded that C was as effective for lower back-pain as other treatment but pointed out that it was far more expensive and possibly had more side-effects": Where does Ernst conclude this? I don't see the word "expensive" in either Ernst 2008 or Ernst & Canter 2006. Again, if this point is worth being made, can you please propose a specific change to the article, with exact old and new wording and a citation?
- Eubulides (talk) 20:48, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- The expense/side-effects issue is not in the paper but in his book Trick or Treatment where he further expands on this issue ( In a situation where two or more rival treatments match each other [to determine which is best] the simple determining factor is often cost which mitigates strongly against chiropractors - compare 10 sessions with a chiropractor at [$100] each with regular exercise of ibuprofen. Furthermore, there are serious problems with chiropractic philosophy and practice [dealt with later:... ] physiotherapeutic exercise is a much safer option. ) . Sorry, that wasn't clear.
- OK. Thanks for the clarification. I still have problems with the wording. The researchers claim that Ernst is flawed - it's wrong to say they 'found'. Until another systematic review of systematic reviews has a different conclusion the Ernst study should get the biggest weight - a single response does not (usually) counter a systematic review.
- My suggestion for the wording: change 'found'---> 'claim' reducing it to: '... a 2008 article claimed there were flaws in the 2006 study' . Clarify the results of the 2006 study. Give Ernst due weight by not reducing his conclusions to a subordinate clause. I would also like clarification of what the 2008 'paper' is. From my reading it is series of articles, not a scientific study: 'Articles in this special focus issue were contributed by leading spine practitioners and researchers, who were invited to summarize the best available evidence for a particular intervention and encouraged to make this information accessible to nonexperts.' A series of articles is not subject to the rigour of a scientific study: lack of bias, no cherry picking etc, and thus is not really anything more than commentary. Ernst's study still carries the weight. We need to focus on studies (essentially review studies) , not on commentary. Macgruder (talk) 06:03, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- The book Trick or Treatment is a reliable source, but it is also somewhat partisan, and it is not peer-reviewed. So it is not as good a source as the peer-reviewed papers that we are talking about here. I would prefer using peer-reviewed sources in academic journals.
- The 2008 paper (Bronfort et al. 2008, PMID 18164469) is one article from a special issue of The Spine Journal. Its Pubmed abstract is misleading, as it's the abstract for the entire special issue, not for the article itself. The article itself is written by chiropractors and its main point is to systematically review the evidence basis for spinal manipulation and mobilization. Its criticism of Ernst & Canter (pp. 217, 219) is part of its discussion of its Table 7 (p. 220) which summarizes all systematic reviews of spinal manipulation for low back pain based on all available randomized controlled trials at the time of the review. In effect, Table 7 and its discussion is a brief summary of systematic reviews, and is a brief answer to Ernst & Canter 2006.
- Bronfort et al. 2008 is not the only article criticizing Ernst & Canter 2006 (PMID 16574972), but it is the most recent and reliable source we've found among all the critical articles, since it is a systematic review published in a peer-reviewed journal. Some other, less-reliable, articles critical of Ernst & Canter can by found by following the "Comment in:" links in PMID 16574972.
- Neither "claimed" nor "found" sounds right here. Essentially we have duelling sources, one mainstream medicine, the other mainstream chiropractic (fringe chiropractic would be another story, of course). How about "stated that there were serious flaws" instead of "found serious flaws"?
- Eubulides (talk) 19:27, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
Ernst, Meeker, Haldeman
This edit has some problems:
- The edit says "Ezdard Ernst believes that the research may be misleading in that spinal manipulation and chiropractic spinal manipulation may differ," but Ernst does not say that. He doesn't say "misleading" or anything like "misleading", and he doesn't say "may differ" or anything like "may differ". He does criticize Meeker & Haldeman's paper because it fails to mention that most of the randomized controlled trials they cite do not relate to chiropractic spinal manipulation.
- The edit says "Meeker and and Haldeman disagree". But they don't disagree with Ernst's comment. On the contrary, they agree, saying "We agree that many of the randomized trials we described were on spinal manipulation rather than specifically on chiropractic manipulation itself". They then go on to say that they believe that this point is not significant. Their claim is convincing, and is accepted by all reliable sources we've found. I believe Ernst himself assumes this point in some of his later publications.
- The edit uses the Simon-says style, but there is no need for that here. It is better not to clutter up the text with names that can easily be found by following the citations.
- (This is minor.) There are citation problems. A citation to Villanueva-Russell (PMID 15550303) is now necessary, but has gone missing. The edit uses the same citation for Ernst that it does for Meeker & Haldeman, but these are two sources and are distinguishable, e.g., Ernst has a separate PMID.
- I made this change to fix the last-mentioned (minor) citation problems, and to add tags for the other problems. To fix the other problems, I suggest replacing this:
- Most research has focused on spinal manipulation (SM) in general,[13] rather than solely on chiropractic SM.[14] Ezdard Ernst believes that the research may be misleading in that spinal manipulation and chiropractic spinal manipulation may differ,[15][failed verification] but Meeker and and Haldeman disagree,[failed verification] noting that chiropractors provide more than 90% of spinal manipulation in the United States.[13]
- with this:
- Most research has focused on spinal manipulation (SM) in general,[13] rather than solely on chiropractic SM.[14][16] Chiropractors use all forms of manipulation and dominate its use in the U.S., and research on SM has equal value indepedently of the practitioner.[13]
Eubulides (talk) 22:13, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- You are committing more original research here by trying to pass off opinions as fact. II was correct that Ernst disagrees with Meeker's analysis. "The authors also claim that 43 randomized, controlled trials of spinal manipulation for back pain have been published, but they fail to mention that most of them do not relate to chiropractic spinal manipulation." -- Levine2112 discuss 23:07, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- Where in the source does it verify the misleading text. QuackGuru 23:10, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- The text is supported by exactly what I have quoted (I even made it bold just for you). If you feel it needs to be rewritten to reflect the source more accurately, I am open to reading your suggestions here. -- Levine2112 discuss 23:23, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- The text is not supported by the source, as explained above. I will attempt to reword the text so that it is supported by the source; please see #Rewording Ernst, Meeker, Haldeman below. Eubulides (talk) 19:27, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- The text is supported by exactly what I have quoted (I even made it bold just for you). If you feel it needs to be rewritten to reflect the source more accurately, I am open to reading your suggestions here. -- Levine2112 discuss 23:23, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- The text in bold does not support the claim. QuackGuru 23:33, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- Can you devise a statement which the bold text would support? -- Levine2112 discuss 23:38, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- I want to stick to the failed verfication text for now. The current text failed verification and you claimed it is verifed but failed to verify how it is verfied. Please verify the current text. QuackGuru 23:50, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- I feel it is verified and that I have explained why. If you feel that it is not verified, please describe why and propose a sentence which you feel is verified by the text given. This is how we achieve consensus. -- Levine2112 discuss 23:54, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- I believe you have failed to verify the text because you have not provided any verification. There is a new proposal by another editor in this thread. QuackGuru 00:00, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- Until you are ready to accept the possibility that your opinion on this matter may be wrong, then there is little reason to continue discussing this with you. -- Levine2112 discuss 02:37, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- It is a reasonable request to ask for verification. At the moment, I do not see any text that verified the disputed text.
- Do you think the new proposal is verified. QuackGuru 16:22, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- Verified? Yes. Acceptable? No. I am totally against this section as it stands now. But if we are going to base our OR violation (confounding non-chiro SM research with conclusions about chiro SM) on the opinions of Meeker & Haldeman, then we should tell the other side - Ernst's opinion that Meeker & Haldeman's research is unreliable because it confounded non-chiro SM research with conclusions about chiro SM. That at least would be NPOV. Regardless, however, it still would not justify the OR violation. Again, if we want to discuss the Ernst / Haldeman & Meeker debate in the article, fine. I think it is a little trivial at this point though. However, we cannot include conclusion from non-chiro SM research to discuss the effectiveness or safety of chiro SM. -- Levine2112 discuss 17:39, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- Please see #Rewording Ernst, Meeker, Haldeman below, for better wording. Eubulides (talk) 19:27, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- Verified? Yes. Acceptable? No. I am totally against this section as it stands now. But if we are going to base our OR violation (confounding non-chiro SM research with conclusions about chiro SM) on the opinions of Meeker & Haldeman, then we should tell the other side - Ernst's opinion that Meeker & Haldeman's research is unreliable because it confounded non-chiro SM research with conclusions about chiro SM. That at least would be NPOV. Regardless, however, it still would not justify the OR violation. Again, if we want to discuss the Ernst / Haldeman & Meeker debate in the article, fine. I think it is a little trivial at this point though. However, we cannot include conclusion from non-chiro SM research to discuss the effectiveness or safety of chiro SM. -- Levine2112 discuss 17:39, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- Until you are ready to accept the possibility that your opinion on this matter may be wrong, then there is little reason to continue discussing this with you. -- Levine2112 discuss 02:37, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- I believe you have failed to verify the text because you have not provided any verification. There is a new proposal by another editor in this thread. QuackGuru 00:00, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- I feel it is verified and that I have explained why. If you feel that it is not verified, please describe why and propose a sentence which you feel is verified by the text given. This is how we achieve consensus. -- Levine2112 discuss 23:54, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- The text in bold does not support the claim. QuackGuru 23:33, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- Ernst begins his letter with "the article by Meeker and Haldeman on chiropractic is highly informative but equally misleading on other points, particularly research". He cites the general SM research as one example of how it misleads, as the quote which Levine picked out shows. He concludes the letter by saying that "this is just some of the evidence in this article that suggests biased interpretation". I'm not sure how to make this any more clear. I can't understand your edit. You seem to be making a circular argument with no basis -- basically that yes, Ernst disagreed with Meeker and Haldeman, but "M & H are convincing so his disagreement is wrong and we shouldn't cite him" (my paraphrase). M&H are not convincing at all -- they don't even engage Ernst's point. By the way, it is better to use numbered bullets for things like this so it is easier to reference your points. I don't understand #4. The comment by Ernst and the response by Meeker are in the same PDF. Please explain. In addition, a "Simon says style" is necessary when you have a disputed point between individual researchers. The priority is to avoid inaccuracy or misleading words rather than conform to your idea of proper style. II | (t - c) 00:43, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- None of these quotes from Ernst's letter directly supports the newly-inserted claim "Ezdard Ernst believes that the research may be misleading in that spinal manipulation and chiropractic spinal manipulation may differ". The quotes do support the claim that Ernst thinks M & H were misleading, but not the claim that he believes that M & H are "misleading in that that spinal manipulation and chiropractic spinal manipulation may differ".
- None of the cited quotes support the newly-inserted claim "Meeker and Haldeman disagree". On the contrary, they explicitly write "We agree" with Ernst. They explicitly engage Ernst's point, to say that they agree with it, and they go on to say that the point isn't a significant one.
- I have found that numbered bullets work poorly when people later edit comments; they get separated and the numbers change, which is even worse than having no numbers at all. Sorry.
- This sort of "Simon says" style is not essential here;; please see #Rewording Ernst, Meeker, Haldeman for a better way to say it.
- Eubulides (talk) 19:27, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- I believe that all of this goes to show that there is no agreement between Ernst and Meeker & Haldeman about the appropriateness of using non-chiropractic spinal manipulation research as the basis for conclusions about chiropractic spinal manipulation. Which is to say that there is no agreement in the scientific community about the appropriateness of using non-chiropractic spinal manipulation research as the basis for conclusions about chiropractic spinal manipulation. Yet our article does just that. It uses non-chiropractic spinal manipulation research to discuss the effectiveness of chiropractic spinal manipulation for a variety of conditions. In the correct context, it is okay to use Meeker & Haldeman's research in this article because at least they are the ones using the non-chiro SM research to make chiro SM conclusions. However, it is not okay for us to use other non-chiro SM research to make chiro SM conclusions. That is an original research violation. Further, if we are basing our rationale for performing such original research on the opinions of Meeker & Haldeman, then that is a synthesis violation as well. -- Levine2112 discuss 00:50, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- P.S. I have no problem discussing the debate between Ernst and Meeker & Haldeman (though it does seem a bit banal for our article). What we can't do, however, is present non-chiro SM research as evidence of chiro SM's efficacy. Non-chiro SM research would be better discussed in spinal manipulation. All we have to do is move those instances there. -- Levine2112 discuss 01:04, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- I asked for verfication. The disputed text still fails verification. Please provide the text that verified the sentence.
- The section is about effectiveness. What is the point in including this information in this section.
- The 90% of spinal manipulation tidbit is duplication from another section. ...in the U.S., chiropractors perform over 90% of all manipulative treatments.[43] See Chiropractic#Treatment techniques. QuackGuru 16:22, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- We have provided verification. That you don't agree with it is beyond our power. The point of including it is to at least attempt NPOV in a section which had relied on one POV to justify the inclusion of lots of OR. That said, including it doesn't solve the OR issue. -- Levine2112 discuss 17:39, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- The sources do not support the claims made in that edit. Also, we can reword to fix the 90% duplication. Please see #Rewording Ernst, Meeker, Haldeman for more on this subject. Eubulides (talk) 19:27, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- Note. Levine2112 falsely claimed the text was verified and failed to produce any text from the source to verify the text. QuackGuru 22:06, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- Note. QuackGuru is not being truthful. -- Levine2112 discuss 22:18, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- No evidence of verification has been provided by Levine2112. Please do not restore unsupported text. QuackGuru 23:30, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- Note. QuackGuru is not being truthful. -- Levine2112 discuss 22:18, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- Note. Levine2112 falsely claimed the text was verified and failed to produce any text from the source to verify the text. QuackGuru 22:06, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- The sources do not support the claims made in that edit. Also, we can reword to fix the 90% duplication. Please see #Rewording Ernst, Meeker, Haldeman for more on this subject. Eubulides (talk) 19:27, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- We have provided verification. That you don't agree with it is beyond our power. The point of including it is to at least attempt NPOV in a section which had relied on one POV to justify the inclusion of lots of OR. That said, including it doesn't solve the OR issue. -- Levine2112 discuss 17:39, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
Rewording Ernst, Meeker, Haldeman
As noted above, the edit in question contains text that is not supported by the cited sources. In particular, the edit gives the impression that Ernst opposes the use of data partly derived from non-chiropractic sources to assess the effectiveness of chiropractic spinal manipulation (SM). This impression is incorrect, as Ernst himself, in Ernst 2008 (PMID 18280103), does exactly this sort of assessment. Ernst's point was that when one does this, one must clearly state where the data are coming from (which is something that Ernst specifically does in his 2008 work).
One other point about the edit: it duplicates the "90%" figure in M & H's response. Since this point is already mentioned in Chiropractic #Treatment techniques, it can be omitted here. But more important, the 90% figure is not the strongest part of M & H's defense. The strongest argument, which is the argument they conclude with, is that "research on spinal manipulation, like that on any other treatment method, is equally of value regardless of the practitioner providing it." This argument should be supplied instead of the weaker, duplicative 90% argument.
All this being said, the main point made by that edit is a valid one, and should be stated in a way that is supported by the sources. To attempt to fix the problem, I installed an edit which replaces the newly-inserted text:
- Edzard Ernst believes that the research may be misleading in that spinal manipulation and chiropractic spinal manipulation may differ,[17] but Meeker and and Haldeman disagree, noting that chiropractors provide more than 90% of spinal manipulation in the United States.[13]
with this text, which summarizes the sources more accurately:
- Some of this research has been criticized for failing to mention its incorporation of data derived from non-chiropractic practitioners of SM;[18] defenders have replied that SM research is equally of value regardless of practitioner.[13]
Normally I'd ask for comments on a change like this before installing it, but in this case the previous edit was installed without discussion or comment, and in important ways the previous edit was not supported by the cited sources. More comments are welcome, of course. Eubulides (talk) 19:27, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- I think this proposed version is more misleading. Ernst clearly states that the Meeker/Haldeman is misleading because they used (and failed to mention) spinal manipulation research which was not relevant to draw conclusions about chiropractic. But forget this version for one second and realize was Ernst is tell us: Not all non-chiro SM research is relevant enough to draw conclusions about chiropractic SM. However, despite this criticism of Ernst's, our article continues to include non-chiropractic SM studies used by Wikipedians (not researchers) to draw conclusions about chiropractic SM. The WP:NOR violation should be more plainly obvious now than ever before! -- Levine2112 discuss 20:02, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- I edited this text to read as:
- Some of this research has been criticized as being misleading for failing to mention incorporation of data derived from studies of non-chiropractic spinal manipulation and thus unrelated to chiropractic spinal manipulation; defenders have replied that SM research is equally of value regardless of practitioner
- While this is certainly a more accurate depiction of what the sources are saying, it really only goes to highlight the disagreement within the scientific community about the legitimacy of drawing conclusions about chiropractic SM from non-chiropractic SM studies. Again, the WP:NOR violation should be plain to all now. -- Levine2112 discuss 20:11, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- The cited source, Ernst 2002 (PMID 12379081), does not "clearly state" that the spinal manipulation research was "not relevant". Ernst doen't use the word "relevant" anywhere.
- Chiropractic #Evidence basis does not "draw conclusions about chiropractic SM" from "non-chiropractic SM studies". Every conclusion about chiropractic SM that is stated in Chiropractic #Evidence basis is directly supported by a reliable source.
- Thanks for following up. The new edit has some accurate parts, but some inaccurate. The inaccurate part is "and thus unrelated to chiropractic spinal manipulation"; the cited source does not contain this criticism, or anything like this criticism. So I removed that part while keeping the other part of the new edit, which adds the criticism about "misleading".
- Eubulides (talk) 20:58, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- The cited source claims that most of the non-chiro SM research used by Meeker & Haldeman was not related to chiro spinal SM. Instead of saying "not related", I had previous included the synonymous "unrelated". And if something is unrelated, you have to admit that it isn't relevant. This is Ersnt expressed opinion.
- It sure does draw conclusion about chiropractic SM from non-chiropractic SM studies. Murphy is a perfect example of this. Murphy makes not conclusions about chiropractic specifically whatsoever. It only discusses spinal manipulation in general. Yet we are including it in a section about Chiropractic effectiveness.
- "...fail to mention that most of them do not relate to chiropractic spinal manipulation." I didn't revert, but rather changed it to nearly a quote of the source.
- -- Levine2112 discuss 21:07, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- It is the "thus" part of the text that was not supported by Ernst. Your more recent edit fixed that; thanks. I made a minor wording change to make it even closer to the source, and to avoid a redundancy ("non-chiropractic" vs "do not relate to chiropractic") and to make it even closer to the source.
- I see now that Surturz reverted this change; I'll comment on this further in #Double negative below. Eubulides (talk) 07:11, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
- Murphy et al. 2006 (PMID 16949948) is not an example of the criticism that Ernst makes. Murphy et al. do not make the mistake that Ernst is talking about, namely, "fail to mention that most of them do not relate relate to chiropractic spinal manipulation". Murphy et al. clearly state in their Table 2, page 578, which of the studies it cites relate to chiropractic spinal manipulation.
- Eubulides (talk) 21:18, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- While it is difficult to suppose what Ernst's take on Murphy would be, you must agree that in its conclusions, Murphy never specifies nor even mentions the word chiropractic. Murphy is an example of research which used studies of a mixed bag of practitioners who perform spinal manipulation and then does not conclude anything at all about chiropractic, but rather just spinal manipulation in general.
- One thing is for certain in the Ernst commentary of the Haldeman/Meeker - that Ernst believes that there are studies of spinal manipulation out there which do not relate to chiropractic spinal manipulation. In face, Ernst felt this way about the majority of the 43 randomized trials which Haldeman/Meeker looked at:
- The authors also claim that 43 randomized, controlled trials of spinal manipulation for back pain have been published, but they fail to mention that most of them do not relate to chiropractic spinal manipulation.
- So knowing that even Ernst believes that not all spinal manipulation trials are related to chiropractic spinal manipulation, we must now take the time to review what exactly WP:OR says:
- ...to demonstrate that you are not presenting original research, you must cite reliable sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, and that directly support the information as it is presented.
- Please note that I did not add bold for emphasis. This bold format is how the policy is currently written. So yes, while research such as Murphy may be reliable, they are not necessarily directly relevant to Chiropractic. Not according to Ernst. Not according to any sort of broad consensus in the scientific community. Therefore, including research which does not specify that it is directly relevant (not "somewhat relevant", not "associated with", not "often confused with"... but directly relevant) to chiropractic, is a clear violation of WP:OR.
- And just because the non-chiropractic SM sources may support what is currently written, by including the general SM research information out of context (in an article specifically about Chiropractic and not spinal manipulation in general), we are advancing a position which is not directly and explicitly supported by the source used. Chiefly, the position of Haldeman/Meeker; which is that non-chiro SM research is directly relevant to chiropractic SM. This is what WP:OR describes as a WP:SYN violation when is states: Material published by reliable sources can be put together in a way that constitutes original research and Synthesizing material occurs when an editor comes to a conclusion by putting together different sources. Here, we are using the Haldeman source to justify the inclusion of non-chiro SM research such as Murphy and thus we have a WP:SYN violation.
- -- Levine2112 discuss 21:55, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- The SM sources support what is currently written in the article and we know SM is directly related to chiropractic. QuackGuru 22:06, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- Please re-read what I have written. We don't know that all SM research is directly related to chiropractic SM - at least not according to Edzard Ernst. And regardless of whether or not the non-chiro SM sources support what is currently written in the article, using them out of context as we are doing still violates WP:OR. Can you argue against either of those points specifically? To do so, you would have to cite/create contradictory Wikipedia policy and/or a source which confirms that there is now a broad consensus in the scientific community that non-chiropractic SM studies are directly related to chiropractic SM. Really that's the only way around this WP:OR charge; for as the policy currently reads: ...to demonstrate that you are not presenting original research, you must cite reliable sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, and that directly support the information as it is presented. -- Levine2112 discuss 22:16, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- Please see #Back to Murphy et al. below. Eubulides (talk) 23:02, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- Please re-read what I have written. We don't know that all SM research is directly related to chiropractic SM - at least not according to Edzard Ernst. And regardless of whether or not the non-chiro SM sources support what is currently written in the article, using them out of context as we are doing still violates WP:OR. Can you argue against either of those points specifically? To do so, you would have to cite/create contradictory Wikipedia policy and/or a source which confirms that there is now a broad consensus in the scientific community that non-chiropractic SM studies are directly related to chiropractic SM. Really that's the only way around this WP:OR charge; for as the policy currently reads: ...to demonstrate that you are not presenting original research, you must cite reliable sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, and that directly support the information as it is presented. -- Levine2112 discuss 22:16, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- The SM sources support what is currently written in the article and we know SM is directly related to chiropractic. QuackGuru 22:06, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
Back to Murphy et al.
- The current claims, as I understand it, are (1) that spinal manipulation is not directly related to Chiropractic; and more specifically (2) that Murphy et al. 2006 (PMID 16949948) is not directly related to chiropractic because it is subject to the same criticism that Ernst 2002 (PMID 12379081) applied to Meeker & Haldeman, when Ernst wrote that M&H "claim that 43 randomized, controlled trials of spinal manipulation for back pain have been published, but they fail to mention that most of them do not relate to chiropractic spinal manipulation."
- I must be misunderstanding (1). Surely this claim is not being made. Spinal manipulation is directly related to chiropractic. It is the core chiropractic treatment, and the reason for chiropractic's existence.
- (2) does not apply to Murphy et al. First, Murphy et al. clearly state that one of the randomized controlled trials they identified (in their Table 2) measured osteopathic manipulation, not chiropractic manipulation, so they are not being misleading. Second, and more important, the other three trials in their Table 2 all used chiropractic manipulation. So this is a case where most of the trials are of chiropractic manipulation.
- By the way, thanks for the URL to Murphy et al. I searched for other JMPT citations in Chiropractic that happened to be freely-readable and added URLs to them to Chiropractic. I linked to the HTML versions, as Wikipedia guidelines prefer links to HTML versions.
Eubulides (talk) 23:02, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- No. The current claim, which is in agreement with Ernst is that not all spinal manipulation research is directly related to chiropractic spinal manipulation.
- Yes. You are misunderstanding. Spinal manipulation is related to chiropractic. However, not all kinds of spinal manipulation are directly related to chiropractic. This is supported by Ernst's position in his response to Meeker & Haldeman. Most of the 43 spinal manipulations trials M&H looked at were deemed unrelated by Ernst.
- Yes. Murphy did look cite one piece of chiropractic specific research, but it also looked at osteopathic spinal manipulation as well as a whole host of treatments provided by an assortment of practitioners other than chiropractic. In the end, the conclusions which Murphy arrives at say nothing specifically about chiropractic spinal manipulation, but rather spinal manipulation in general. Therefore, the conclusions of Murphy are not directly related to chiropractic. Perhaps somewhat related, but certainly not directly related.
- My pleasure. I offered that link previously in our discussion of Murphy as well as in the RfC text itself.
- -- Levine2112 discuss 23:14, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- Ah, OK, so the claim is that some research on spinal manipulation is not directly related to chiropractic? That claim I can agree with. So we'd need to evaluate SM research on a case-by-case basis, right?
- Table 2 of Murphy et al. 2006 (PMID 16949948) does not cite just one piece of chiropractic-specific research. It cites three chiropractic-specific studies. This is out of four studies total, so it's fair to say that chiropractic is heavily-represented here.
- Perhaps there's some misunderstanding about what constitutes "chiropractic-specific research"? Let's take one of those four studies as an example, namely Hsieh et al. 2002 (PMID 12045509). This randomized controlled trial compared chiropractic manipulation (Diversified) to back school and to myofascial therapy, and found that these treatments were equally effective for subacute low back pain. There was no control group, so the study did not report how effective the treatments were, compared to doing nothing. This study does compare chiropractic treatment to other treatments, so in that sense the study is chiropractic-specific, right?
- Eubulides (talk) 23:39, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- Yes. But it is not for us to evaluate. Unless the research specifically states that its conclusions are about chiropractic spinal manipulations, then we cannot infer otherwise without violating OR. That said though, if another researcher relates the conclusion to chiropractic spinal manipulation, we may use that researchers comments within the proper context. This may be the case with Haldeman/Meeker who use non-chiropractic SM studies to make conclusions about chiropractic SM. Whereas we wouldn't use the individual non-chiropractic studies which Haldeman/Meeker reference, but we could use Haldeman/Meeker's conclusions, provided that we frame it within the context (i.e. Though H/M looked at SM research not necessarily studying chiropractic SM, they concluded such-such specifically about chiropractic --> kind of the "bad version", but I think you'll get my point.)
- Sorry. I only saw one piece of research referenced in the citations. But I believe you. Regardless, the conclusions which Murphy reaches (the ones that we are using in the article) say nothing about chiropractic specifically. Sure, if someone was going to investigate spinal manipulation in general, they might look at chiropractic studies. But they might look at studies of other professions which perform spinal manipulation as well. This is the case in Murphy. But if someone was going to investigate chiropractic spinal manipulation, they wouldn't look at non-chiropractic spinal manipulation research (unless they were using it for a comparison basis). That is not the case with Murphy. The researchers are not making a comparison between chiropractic spinal manipulation and osteopathic spinal manipulation. They are using the two groups of studies to say something about spinal manipulation in general; not about chiropractic spinal manipulation specifically.
- A comparison study between chiropractic and other treatments would be fine to use to state the conclusions of such a comparison. However, Hseih may not be of the quality of research to which you have raised the bar at this article. That's a whole other discussion.
- Overall, I think if you look back at all of my comments in this dispute, you will see that I have remained very consistent to this main point (which Ernst verifies): Not all spinal manipulation research is directly related to chiropractic spinal manipulation, thus using spinal manipulation research to discuss chiropractic spinal manipulation effectiveness/safety constitutes an WP:OR violation (and is misleading, according to Ernst). -- Levine2112 discuss 00:00, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
- "Yes. But it is not for us to evaluate. Unless ..." So it is for us to evaluate. We need to use our best judgment as to whether the research is directly related to chiropractic. We are disputing over what judgment rules to use; but editorial judgment is required no matter what rules are used. Eubulides (talk) 07:11, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
- Our "evaluation" should only consist of determining whether or not chiropractic is mentioned in the conclusions which we are citing. If a conclusion is about chiropractic directly, then yes, we should continue to use the reference to cite the conclusion with any proper context needed. If the conclusion makes no mention of chiropractic whatsoever, then we should discontinue its use as a reference and should remove its conclusions from our article. Does this sound like a reasonable way to move forward from here? -- Levine2112 discuss 16:08, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
- There is no requirement anywhere that chiropractic be mentioned in the conclusions of a source. Our evaluation should consist of using our best judgment as to whether a source makes a claim that is directly related to chiropractic. That's all that WP:RS says. Eubulides (talk) 23:49, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
- It's OR to claim that studies on 'Spinal Manipulation' cover chiropractic treatments. Uninvolved editors agree. Stop belabouring the point. Flooding the talk page does not make what you say true. Can you not find alternate references that actually talk about chiropractic?? --Surturz (talk) 08:14, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
- We have uninvolved editors agreeing with both sides here. I'm not sure what "stop belaboring the point" means; does it mean that one side should have the last word and the other side should not reply? Anyway, we can easily find alternative references, but they will be lower quality and will introdoce POV into this article. It would be better to stick with higher-quality references that introduce less POV. Eubulides (talk) 23:49, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
- I don't understand how including studies which are actually directly related to the subject at hand - namely Chiropractic - will neccessarily introduce POV into the article. Regardless, currently we have an OR issue.Ernst states: The authors also claim that 43 randomized, controlled trials of spinal manipulation for back pain have been published, but they fail to mention that most of them do not relate to chiropractic spinal manipulation. Ernst is stating that not all trials of spinal manipulation relate to chiropractic. In fact, he feels that the majority of the 43 which Meeker/Haldeman looked at do not. WP:OR states: ...to demonstrate that you are not presenting original research, you must cite reliable sources that refer directly to the topic of the article, and that directly support the information as it is presented. So if we have a source which doesn't refer directly to chiropractic, then using it to discuss the effectiveness of chiropractic at the article Chiropractic would present an OR violation. And WP:SYN states: If the sources cited do not explicitly reach the same conclusion, or if the sources cited do not refer directly to the subject of the article, then the editor is engaged in original research. Currently we are using sources at Chiropractic to discuss the effectiveness of chiropractic, but many of these sources (such as Murphy) are not explicitly about chiropractic nor do they explicity reach any conclusions specifically about chiropractic. They are sources which have studied spinal manipulation in general (often times as performed by practitioners other than chiropractors). Given that these sources reach conclusions about spinal manipulation in general, and given that mainstream researchers such as Ernst claim that not all spinal manipulation research is related to chiropractic, it's a forgone conclusion that the inclusion of such non-chirorpactic spinal manipulation research at Chiropractic to discuss the effectiveness of chiropractic violates WP:OR. My suggestion from here is to identify which studies are not specifically about chiropractic and remove them from the article. Then, we will see what we are left with. Perhaps what will be left will be adequate, or we can alway look for other sources - ones which are directly related to chiropractic. Does this sound like a reasonable way to proceed? -- Levine2112 discuss 00:03, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
- We have uninvolved editors agreeing with both sides here. I'm not sure what "stop belaboring the point" means; does it mean that one side should have the last word and the other side should not reply? Anyway, we can easily find alternative references, but they will be lower quality and will introdoce POV into this article. It would be better to stick with higher-quality references that introduce less POV. Eubulides (talk) 23:49, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
- It's OR to claim that studies on 'Spinal Manipulation' cover chiropractic treatments. Uninvolved editors agree. Stop belabouring the point. Flooding the talk page does not make what you say true. Can you not find alternate references that actually talk about chiropractic?? --Surturz (talk) 08:14, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
- There is no requirement anywhere that chiropractic be mentioned in the conclusions of a source. Our evaluation should consist of using our best judgment as to whether a source makes a claim that is directly related to chiropractic. That's all that WP:RS says. Eubulides (talk) 23:49, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
- Our "evaluation" should only consist of determining whether or not chiropractic is mentioned in the conclusions which we are citing. If a conclusion is about chiropractic directly, then yes, we should continue to use the reference to cite the conclusion with any proper context needed. If the conclusion makes no mention of chiropractic whatsoever, then we should discontinue its use as a reference and should remove its conclusions from our article. Does this sound like a reasonable way to move forward from here? -- Levine2112 discuss 16:08, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
At the crossroads...
In the Scope of practice section, we have some comments regarding the placement of the profession in the "mainstream <--> alternative" spectrum. A significant quote that I would like to see added is provided by the title of a Meeker article which we have already cited. I would like to add the following sentence at the end of the first paragraph, right after "... 12% as mainstream medicine.":
- A chiropractic article has described chiropractic as "a profession at the crossroads of mainstream and alternative medicine."[19]
As an attributed and sourced self-description, which I think is pretty accurate, I think this is a good addition. The first half can be tweaked, but I think it is important that it be made clear that this is a self-description, not a description imposed by critics. What think ye? -- Fyslee / talk 04:56, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- It's fine to mention crossing the boundaries, but there is no need for a Simon-says style here; typically it is better to use our own words rather than quoting. Also, the phrase "A chiropractic article" is highly ambiguous and not needed. Instead, I suggest appending the crossroads idea to a sentence that already cites Meeker & Haldeman, by inserting the italicized text in the following quote:
- Chiropractic crosses the boundaries of mainstream and alternative medicine: although chiropractors have many attributes of primary care providers, chiropractic has more of the attributes of a medical specialty like dentistry or podiatry.[19]
- Eubulides (talk) 19:27, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- I did say the first part needed to be tweaked, and you have gone beyond that and created a totally different suggestion. Okay. Such efforts are legitimate, but not what was requested here.
- I question the italicized part as none of it is in the source, and "crossing the boundaries" isn't synonymous with "at the crossroads", which is why I prefer we don't engage in editorial interpretations (editorializing) and just use the author's words, even if we don't use the whole quote. (It can be shortened by leaving out "a profession", and not using quotation marks at all, since we are providing a citation anyway.) This particular editorializing veers away from the author's intent.
- It creates another problem in that there is no parallelism between the first part and the second part, as implied by the colon followed by "although". Instead of creating the necessary parralelism, the last part mentions two aspects that are both characteristics of mainstream medicine and doesn't mention alternative characteristics at all, which is what the authors are getting at. It's a profession that has characteristics of both, or as some reform chiropractors jokingly put it: "Chiropractors alternative, but are pretending to be doctors." (Said in the context of how scripts are used in practice building, some of which have been leaked to the outside world as the manipulative things they are. They are normally used only by actors, but are also used by many chiropractors, showing how both professions are pretending (acting) to be something they're not.)
- The profession is a blend of obvious CAM, and yet has some mainstream characteristics, so it's "at the crossroads." "Chiropractic still maintains some vestiges of an alternative health care profession in image, attitude, and practice." The last two paragraphs in the article deal with this, as summarized in the introduction: "The medical establishment has not yet fully accepted chiropractic as a mainstream form of care. The next decade should determine whether chiropractic maintains the trappings of an alternative health care profession or becomes fully integrated into all health care systems." The implication is obvious: if the "trappings of an alternative health care profession" are dropped, acceptance and integration may follow. Many notable chiropractors have pointed the profession in the direction of dropping subluxations and overreliance on adjustments, and seeking acceptance as a back care specialty, akin to dentistry and podiatry.
- I still don't understand the allergic reaction to quoting, especially when not overdone. It's a normal part of writing both in and out of Wikipedia, is allowed here, sometimes adds authority to what is written (editors should be invisible), and solves problems related to the necessity of attributing possibly controversial opinions.
- Keep in mind that my suggestion is only as an addition to an existing paragraph that deals with this subject of "placement". I'll suggest a shorter version here:
- The profession has been described as being at the crossroads of mainstream and alternative medicine.[19]
- No quotations marks at all, and only diligent readers who know the authors and follow the source will know that this isn't an evil accusation made by chiroskeptics, which is unfortunate. I still think it should be clear that it is chiropractic authors who are describing the profession. We can solve that by this version:
- Chiropractic authors have described the profession as being at the crossroads of mainstream and alternative medicine.[19]
- Properly attributed? I do not see any reason for Simon-says attribution.
- Assert facts, including facts about opinions—but do not assert the opinions themselves. By "fact" we mean "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute." For example, that a survey produced a certain published result would be a fact. That there is a planet called Mars is a fact. That Plato was a philosopher is a fact. No one seriously disputes any of these things. So we can feel free to assert as many of them as we can.
- See WP:ASF. QuackGuru 18:04, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
- QuackGuru, you are confounding things here, and in this case I would appreciate that you not bring your conflicts with Levine2112 into this thread. If you can't do that, please don't participate, because you are already diverting this discussion. Don't use this thread as another battleground between the two of you. Levine2112 is quite correct, and when in doubt, one attribution too many is better than one too few.
- For the first, the objections to "Simon-says" are not about attribution, but to direct quoting using quotation marks, so you are already way off-base here.
- For the second, this has nothing to do with "facts", but about what is clearly an opinion by two noted chiropractic authors, one of whom is also an MD. Other mainstream (and reform chiropractic) authors might - and do - have the opinion that chiropractic is mostly fringe nonsense, with only a pretense of mainstream veneer. That type of opinion would also need to be attributed. There is no question that the statement is an opinion, so don't meddle in what you don't understand, or don't wish to understand. What is opinion to one is fact to another, and vice versa, so both would need to be attributed and sourced.
- Attribution can sometimes be a necessary fact to include about an opinion. That chiropractic is at the crossroads of mainstream and alternative medicine is just an opinion, so we shouldn't assert that opinion as a fact. However it is a fact that so-and-so has the opinion that chiropractic is at the crossroads of mainstream and alternative medicine. -- Levine2112 discuss 21:36, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
- You have not explained it to be necessary in this case. QuackGuru 21:39, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
- Please provide evidence it's an oipinion, and that there is a seriuos dispute among reliable sources. It is a fact until evidence of a serious dispute is presented. QuackGuru 23:26, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
- Sure I have. -- Levine2112 discuss 22:15, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
- Yes I have. -- Levine2112 discuss 22:19, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
- Please provide evidence there is a serious dispute among reliable sources in order for attribution to be necessary.
- Bringing up WP:ASF is important part of discussion. Per WP:ASF, attribution is unecessary when there is no serious disagreement among reliable sources. QuackGuru 23:26, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
<-- QuackGuru, since you continue your baiting and are now moving the bases to "among reliable sources", I'm going to ask you to precisely quote what part you are referring to, because I really don't see your point. I'll even make it easy for you by copying the statement here so we are on the "same page":
- Chiropractic authors have described the profession as being at the crossroads of mainstream and alternative medicine.[19]
Please state precisely which of those words you are claiming are undisputed "facts". -- Fyslee / talk 23:48, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
- It is an undisputed fact if no serious disagreement is presented. If an editor provides evidence it is an opinion (an opinion is when a serious dispute is presented) then it is not a fact. I am asking for evidence if a serious dispute exists. See WP:ASF. If the text is disputed then we can add attribution. If evidence is not presented then we can assert it as fact. QuackGuru 00:06, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
I found another reliable source that calls chiropractic a crossroads. Here's a quote:
- "In fact, it appears, from our results, that in this time of constant change in the health care arena, concepts of health and disease may be in flux and may reflect more of an individual belief among providers rather than being held professionwide. This may be particularly true of chiropractors, whose profession is viewed by those both within it and outside it as being at a crossroads between mainstream and complementary health care."[20]
With this in mind, Fyslee's suggestion to say "chiropractic authors" is no longer quite accurate, as not all the authors of this other source are chiropractors. With this in mind, I propose the following wording instead:
- Chiropractic is viewed to be at the crossroads of mainstream and alternative medicine: although chiropractors have many attributes of primary care providers, chiropractic has more of the attributes of a medical specialty like dentistry or podiatry.[19][20]
- Eubulides (talk) 07:11, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
How about
- Chiropractic combines aspects from mainstream and alternative medicine: although chiropractors have many attributes of primary care providers, chiropractic has more of the attributes of a medical specialty like dentistry or podiatry.
This improves the wording per WP:ASF, which I encourage you all to read.
ScienceApologist (talk) 01:41, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
- The debate is also at the board. See Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard#Crossroads of Chiropractic - Assert facts.2C including facts about opinions.E2.80.94but do not assert the opinions themselves. QuackGuru 06:31, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Double negative
Surturz reverted a change that I proposed in #Rewording Ernst, Meeker, Haldeman above, with no disagreement there. Surturz commented "Remove changes that do not have consensus".
Part of what Surturz reverted was the addition of URLs for sources that are freely readable. I assume this part of the revert was inadvertent, so I reinstalled them.
Here's the other part of the change, with italics representing new text:
- Some of this research has been criticized as being misleading for failing to mention incorporation of data derived from studies of
non-chiropracticSMwhichthat do not relate to chiropractic SM
This change causes the text to more-accurately describe the cited source. The cited source does not say "non-chiropractic" or anything like it. It says "The authors also claim that 43 randomized, controlled trials of spinal manipulation for back pain have been published, but they fail to mention that most of them do not relate to chiropractic spinal manipulation." There is no "non-chiropractic" there; there is only a "do not relate to chiropractic SM", which is a phrase that is already in the article. Putting in "non-chiropractic" here makes the text more confusing (it sounds like a double negative), and it causes the text to stray from the source unnecessarily. I don't see why this change would not have consensus. Eubulides (talk) 07:11, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
- Please discuss and establish consensus for these changes first. You did not just change the references but also made changes to the text. --Surturz (talk) 07:21, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
- There must be some confusion here. This edit made zero changes to the text. It merely added URLs to sources that are already cited. What could be controversial about making it easier for readers to follow a citation? Why revert that edit? Eubulides (talk) 07:35, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
- You used the references as a smokescreen for this substantive change. If another editor wishes to reinsert the references so be it, but I think you have lost your right to do so. --Surturz (talk) 07:47, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
- * And like a bolt of lightning, an 'uninvolved' editor that Eubulides canvassed reverts back to Eubulides' version. How much better this article might be, Eubulides, if you genuinely tried to establish consensus, rather than simply seeking out allies. --Surturz (talk) 08:05, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
- Again, there must be some confusion here. The substantive change you're talking about did not change the references. This is the edit that changed the references: it merely added URLs; it did nothing else. There was no reason for this revert to remove the improvement to the references. Nor was there a reason to revert the same improvement later. Also, that was not "canvassing" ImperfectlyInformed; it was responding to ImperfectlyInformed's earlier edit to Chiropractic, which I did not solicit. Eubulides (talk) 08:14, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
- There must be some confusion here. This edit made zero changes to the text. It merely added URLs to sources that are already cited. What could be controversial about making it easier for readers to follow a citation? Why revert that edit? Eubulides (talk) 07:35, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
Mass edits
I have reverted QuackGuru's mass edits which were not only done without consensus, but fly in the face of on-going discussions. I advise QuackGuru to be patient and not get frustrated by long discussions. We are working on establishing a consensual version of the content of this article. This is a delicate procedure as each side has strong opinions. The fragility of this proceedings are disrupted every time you launch into these kinds of mass edits done against our agreement here: to talk first, establish consensus second, and edit last. Please abide and help create a better functioning edit environment. Thank you. -- Levine2112 discuss 18:30, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
- Some of QuackGuru's edits reflect what so far seems to be consensus; others were not, and revert changes that were introduced here without consensus. It's better to make edits like these one at a time, rather than all at once; that makes it easier for editors who disagree with some edits, but not with others, to revert only the edits they disagree with. Of course this strategy relies on having other editors be selective about what they revert, which has not always been the case recently, unfortunately. Eubulides (talk) 23:49, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
- Consensus is growing for QuackGuru's improvements when editors do not have a valid reason for deleting content that is referenced and more accurate. For example, there were improvements to the vaccination section. Levine2112 did not provide any specfic objection to QuackGuru's mass improvements. How many references did Levine2112 delete without explanation? Hmmm. QuackGuru 05:10, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Edits by 71.138.155.228
This recent edit by 71.138.155.228 introduced several problems:
- It changes Chiropractic #Effectiveness to lead with discussion about spinal manipulation (SM); that section should lead with a discussion of effectiveness of chiropractic treatment in general, and should not assume that SM is the same thing as chiropractic.
- Its new phrase "Given the wide range of ways to measure treatment outcomes," is not supported by the cited source; the source doesn't say "Given" (or anything like it) to link the phrase to the rest of the sentence.
- It unnecessarily introduces Simon-says style (e.g., "Some experts point out that", "other experts point to").
- It removes the point "many other medical procedures also lack rigorous proof of effectiveness", which is supported by the cited source.
- It changes the text from saying "all medical treatment" benefits from the placebo response, which is what the source says, to saying "other alternative treatments" benefit. It's better to stick to what the source says, as the source's point is more-general and is also valid.
- For efficacy of maintenance care, it changes "is unknown" to "has yet to be empirically validated". But the source says that it is "unknown". We should stick to what the source says.
- It changes "criticized as being misleading for failing to mention incorporation of data derived from studies of SM that do not relate to chiropractic SM" to "criticized as being misleading for not mentioning data derived from studies of non-chiropractic SM". The new text does not accurately summarize the source, whereas the old text does.
- It removes the text "There is little consensus as to who should administer the SM, raising concerns by chiropractors that orthodox medical physicians could "steal" SM procedures from chiropractors; the focus on SM has also raised concerns that the resulting practice guidelines could limit the scope of chiropractic practice to treating backs and necks.", which is well-supported by the cited source.
All in all, this change has so many problems that I propose that it be reverted. Its improvements can be discussed here as needed. Eubulides (talk) 20:00, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, please do so. -- Levine2112 discuss 20:14, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Gallup poll 2
I judge the consensus of editors to be that including the Gallup poll is right. Although some editors made fatuous arguments like "opinion polls are ephemeral", this is beside the point for the fact that Gallup is a recognized polling firm. We quote Gallup across Wikipedia to get readers the idea for what various populations' opinions of controversial matters are. Since chiropractic is obviously controversial, quoting Gallup is right to do.
I judge the obstructionist editors who are continually removing reference to the Gallup poll to be acting highly inappropriately.
ScienceApologist (talk) 01:25, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
- You call my comment fatuous? A "Science Apologist" that relies on opinion polling rather than science to push his POV? What delicious irony. You want to argue the science, argue the science. Don't push a POV with opinion polls. Majority agreement is not the same as consensus. And the gallup poll does not have consensus for inclusion. --Surturz (talk) 02:18, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
- It is reasonable to include information from a Gallop poll. Please provide a specific objection based on Wikipedia policy. QuackGuru 05:02, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
- I agree with Surturz here. Describing someone's arguments as "fatuous" and editors as "obstructionist" is highly uncivil. ScienceApologist, please refrain from personal attacks. I also agree with Surturz in that there is no such things as a "consensus of editors". Majority agreement is not the same as consensus. -- Levine2112 discuss 02:47, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
- Levine2112 agrees with Surturz who was unable to provide a valid reason to delete the Gallop poll. QuackGuru 05:02, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Establishing consensus per WP:CON:
Consensus develops from agreement of the parties involved. This can happen through discussion, editing, or more often, a combination of the two. Consensus can only work among reasonable editors who make a good faith effort to work together in a civil manner. Developing consensus requires special attention to neutrality - remaining neutral in our actions in an effort to reach a compromise that everyone can agree on.
Someone edits a page, and then viewers of the page have three options: accept the edit, change the edit, or revert the edit. Articles go through many iterations of consensus to achieve a neutral and readable product. If other editors do not immediately accept your ideas, think of a reasonable change that might integrate your ideas with others and make an edit, or discuss those ideas. You can do this at the talk page, as an edit summary, or as a note to others at a user talk page or other widely read pages, such as the Village pump.
Edit summaries are useful, and should contain a summary of the change made to the article by the edit, or an explanation of why the editor made the change. A short summary is better than no summary. If the reason for an edit is not clear, editors are more likely to revert it, especially when someone inserts or deletes material. To give longer explanations, use the Talk page and put in the edit summary "see Talk".
Edit wars lead to page protection rather than improvements to the article.
Editors only excuse is that we do not have consensus. That is not a valid reason to delete well sourced text that meets Wikipedia's inclusion criteria. Consensus can only work among reasonable editors who make a good faith effort to work together in a civil manner. When editors or an editor continues to revert in the presence of bad faith, we have established WP:CON. QuackGuru 06:47, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
- Rubbish, I have said repeatedly that inclusion of the gallup poll violates WP:SYNTH and WP:NPOV, and I think Levine agrees with me. Consensus means that all, or very nearly all, editors accept the inclusion of a particular piece of text. If other editors do not immediately accept your ideas, think of a reasonable change that might integrate your ideas with others is the bit you seem to be ignoring. Attempting to discredit the views of other editors is not the way to build consensus, changing your proposed text to incorporate their concerns is. --Surturz (talk) 07:05, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
References
Please keep this section at the bottom. TO ADD A NEW SECTION, just click the EDIT link at the right and add the new section ABOVE this one. Then copy the heading into the edit summary box.
(The following resolve otherwise-dangling references: [21] [20] [22] [23] [24] [10] [8] [14] [19] [25] )
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