The best road to progress is freedom's road. - JFK
Texas
China is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject China, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of China related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ChinaWikipedia:WikiProject ChinaTemplate:WikiProject ChinaChina-related articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Countries, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of countries on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.CountriesWikipedia:WikiProject CountriesTemplate:WikiProject Countriescountry articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Asia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Asia on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.AsiaWikipedia:WikiProject AsiaTemplate:WikiProject AsiaAsia articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject East Asia, a project which is currently considered to be defunct.East AsiaWikipedia:WikiProject East AsiaTemplate:WikiProject East AsiaEast Asia articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Socialism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of socialism on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SocialismWikipedia:WikiProject SocialismTemplate:WikiProject Socialismsocialism articles
This POV is in our mind instead of on English web pages. Will Wikipedia recognize the common name for China other than the English world one? --Atry (talk) 11:54, 8 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
see FAQ at the top of this talk page. mgeotalk 12:21, 8 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think the PRC is the primary topic of 'China' in the English-speaking world. I speak English as my first language. In most of the occassions that I encountered, the primary topic is either the Chinese mainland (as in the cases of the FCO and the Economist above), or the broader region in general. 218.250.159.42 (talk) 16:34, 8 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If you are a native Chinese in mainland China, then Dalu is the official name of the PRC. That is the most politically correct. And this was brought up also in previous archives. A modern Chinese person just doesn't refer to him/herself as coming from "共和国". So PRC was never truly a common name to begin with. Benjwong (talk) 21:49, 8 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
But as an obvious relative expert and someone who relatively at least knows a lot about this I've never heard of this term before. For better or for worse it isn't common in English in the UK. And I doubt it's much different in the US or India or any other places with large English speaking populations. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 23:49, 8 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The press in the UK (such as The Guardian, The Scotsman, The Independent and BBC, to name a few) does use terms like 'Chinese mainland' and 'mainland China'. If you aren't familiar with the subject matter here, don't pretend you are, please. 218.250.159.42 (talk) 13:59, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, they use it to refer to "mainland China" because Hong Kong and Macau are also part of China, but not mainland China. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:58, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Dalu mentioned above is the word for 'mainland' in northern Mandarin as far as I understand. 218.250.159.42 (talk) 15:37, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
@Benjwong: To be fair, one could say that people from the mainland wouldn't claim that they come from "人民共和国", though they may say something like "I have a 中华人民共和国 passport" or "he is a 中华人民共和国 citizen". "共和国" itself only means "republic", so of course no one uses that term, since it's vague (it's no more than a synonym of 民国; both are alternate translations of res publica state, the only difference is that "共和国" is a word of Japanese (wasei kango) origin). -- 李博杰 | —Talk contribs email 03:56, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If you want to be really fair, conversations regarding politics and passports might use terms like 共和国. But everyday conversations used by regular people just doesn't use those terms at all. Benjwong (talk) 02:47, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
As a native speaker of English residing in Europe (and not an American, apparently), I'd say more than 90% of the time that I come across the name Georgia is about the independent state in Caucasia (instead of the US southern state), and more than 95% of the time with Washington about the US capital (instead of the US state in the Pacific Northwest). So what's the primary topic of Georgia and Washington? Why should we consider the communist republic as the primary topic of China just because the politicians in Washington and London equate them as such? Why don't we consider English sources from the Far East too? 1.65.152.12 (talk) 12:44, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
We considered all sources presented in the source list. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 12:49, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
As far as I've ever noticed, China is virtually never used in English to mean both the PRC and ROC combined (or indeed any wider area). Also, it's worth saying again that this page is not simply about "the communist republic" - it's about the nation known as China, including all its history, but predicated on the notion that, in 2012, the currently-kind-of-communist PRC is the modern iteration of that nation and is what most people mean when they say "China". This is pretty indisputable stuff; there's no ambiguity as there is with, say, Georgia. And, finally, on the Far East sources point, I just glanced at the Japan Times, Taipei Times and South China Morning Post websites. Yes, a) newspapers don't determine everything here, b) it's not a full or thorough sample, and b) of course they're examples of use rather than explanations of use; but it's a pretty representative and decent starting point. And they all - even the Taipei Times - seem to use "China" and "Taiwan" pretty much as they would use "France", "Japan" etc. Why are we scrabbling around for reasons to be different? N-HHtalk/edits 14:05, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The Taipei Times is a Pan-Green, pro-Independence paper. It has a political motive for using "China" and "Taiwan" in the way that they use "France", "Japan", etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.46.140 (talk) 17:18, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That doesn't mean that is the actual reason why it does prefer "Taiwan/China"; and, in any event, those sources - if there are any - that regularly or primarily use ROC/PRC are as likely to do so from political motives as well. Citing NPOV doesn't really get anyone anywhere; it's a red herring. And I didn't find any that do anyway, from Taiwan itself or elsewhere in the region (and there are of course virtually none in the West that do). N-HHtalk/edits 17:43, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it does; Taipei Times uses Taiwan versus China because they're pro-Independence. The sources that would support the ROC as China uses it because it's, you know, an actual reflection of reality: the Constitution of the ROC which calls itself China. That's reality, that's NPOV, it's in the ROC Constitution, it's recognized by people on both sides of the Taiwan Straits under teh 1992 Concensus. That the ROC is China. The POV here, is YOURS. Is it just me or are the people who most fervently defending this move from "China" to PRC are also the ones least informed about what is and what isn't? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.46.140 (talk) 19:18, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the lecture. No need to shout and be patronising by the way when you tell me things that I am actually perfectly well informed about. Anyway, sorry, but I cannot take seriously anyone who says explicitly and definitively that "the ROC is China" (as if it were a matter of some deep, objective truth anyway); or who suggests that what the government of a country says, or what terminology it happens to use, necessarily reflects "reality" or is by definition "neutral". And you know what? I don't have a POV, I just look at the terminology used by the overwhelming majority of sources - including the ROC/Taiwanese government itself half the time; or did you not know that? - and suggest following them. N-HHtalk/edits 19:31, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It's something you should take very seriously. If the ROC itself were ever to declare itself as "not-China", hundreds upon hundreds of ballistic missiles will immediately fly over the Taiwan Strait at the sweet potato shaped island. The PRC recognizes the ROC as China. The ROC recognizes the ROC as China. Only a few of you here seem to have your own POV on this subject and sees the ROC as "not-China".
The issue is about what one word we use as an article title and in much of our written text to describe something (and what that one word generally describes). Too many people want to overcomplicate it by suggesting we are talking about a definitive statement of something's fundamental nature, or what it is or is not recognised as. Anyway, as noted above, those who dislike the current title of the page can open a move request - even if we only have just gone through one. 20:02, 9 January 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]])
The issue is, it doesn't have to be one word. I can be multiple words. — Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]])
Let's rebuild the world. We'll just declare that the PRC has no claim to Taiwan and that the RoC was never on the mainland and holds no claims there. We can inform the UN about our decision so they can write up the official paperwork. Do I have a second for this motion? Hcobb (talk) 17:27, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No. According to the UN, the ROC ceased to exist on 1st January 1972. It's part of China, officially the People's Republic of China, which succeeded the Republic of China. UN's position is: It just doesn't exist. We don't know and we don't care what'd happened. The flag of China would be used to illustrate UN's founding anyways, with the flags of the Soviet Union, the UK, France, and the Star-Spangled Banner with only 48 instead of 50 stars. 218.250.159.42 (talk) 15:37, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
From my point of view (= The Netherlands). China = PRC and Taiwan = ROC. Two seprate states, although each state claims that the other is part of their state. And my personal opinion: I think the USA will be angry and starts a diplomatic style roaring and cursing but are effectively powerless when China send its army out to seize Taiwan... Night of the Big Windtalk 02:19, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The ROC claims the Chinese mainland to be part of the ROC. Taiwan doesn't claim the Chinese mainland to be part of Taiwan. 218.250.159.42 (talk) 15:17, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The ROC's claims over mainland China don't have any bearing on the fact that the majority of the world, including the ROC's GIO office, uses Taiwan as a name for the country. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 23:46, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That's because the term 'Taiwan' is used either as a euphemism of the ROC or as an alternative reference to the 'Free Area', by the ROC itself on its relations with the PRC excluding the special administrative regions (i.e. as defined as the 'Mainland Area' in ROC's legislations), and by governments of other countries. Most countries recognise or acknowledge Beijing's position regarding the ROC, and therefore have no choice but to use the term 'Taiwan'. The United States, in particular, is bounded by its legislation on the definition of the word 'Taiwan' (which doesn't cover Kinmin, Wuchiou and Matsu).
But, all these do not change the fact that 'Taiwan' is only a common name for the contemporary ROC, with no clear and objective cut off point from which onwards the ROC became Taiwanese and no longer Chinese, and Taiwan refers only to part of the geographical extent of the contemporary ROC. Taiwan isn't (or isn't yet) Austrianised and in many occassions the term 'China' is used to refer to a geographical/cutural region that probably covers Taiwan. 218.250.159.42 (talk) 08:29, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed that Taiwan is a common name for the contemporary ROC, but isn't that standard Wikipedia naming behaviour? We tend to name articles based on what their subject is currently known as, and make mention of what they were previously known as in the article. If the subject's previous incarnation is significant enough it might even be broken out into its own article, such as the British Empire with United Kingdom, or Yugoslavia with its various independent nations. This discussion really belongs on the ROC page, but I'll mention this here because the ROC discussion is related to the PRC->China move: an important 'first step' question is what the article on the modern state that occupies the island of Taiwan should be called. It's my view that calling it Taiwan is the appropriate answer. The historical details of the ROC can be worked out independently. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 23:05, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with this. Between 1911-1949, there was a place called Great Britain. It's now called the United Kingdom. Between 1911-1949 there was a place called the Republic of China; it's more complicated for the ROC, but, it's now called Taiwan. All ROC articles need to be consolidated into a Taiwan articled. It's time to decide. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.40.147.78 (talk) 23:43, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The Kingdom of Great Britain no longer existed in 1801 when it was succeeded by the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. The Republic of China did not become Taiwan in 1949. 42.3.2.237 (talk) 07:53, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The comparison with the United Kingdom was to address concerns by some editors that you can't name an article X unless it was always and forever historically known as X, which is incorrect. You're referring instead to the common name issue. There's considerable evidence that has been provided that the common name of the country in control of the island of Taiwan is also called Taiwan. Wikipedia has a long and well-respected tradition of using common names, which is why you'll find the article on the USA at United States with a redirect from the more official United States of America. Similarly, the official name of Taiwan may well be Republic of China but the common name for the contemporary state is Taiwan, including in use by the ROC government itself, and our policy strongly indicates it should exist at that location. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 19:43, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The Republic of China is still the same Republic of China apart from the change in its territorial existence. United States is the common name for the United States of America since its founding in 1776. United Kingdom is the common name for both the UKGBI and the UKGBNI, and in modern usage may cover its predecessors too. Taiwan isn't the common name for the Republic of China at least until the 1970s. 42.3.2.237 (talk) 11:35, 19 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The ROC is a very different country to the one it used to be. And again, whether Taiwan wasn't the common name before, it is now. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 18:18, 19 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This is very circular arguing, 42.*. This circle consists of the following: 'but we can't call it X because it wasn't always X', 'Here's another example of a country at Y that wasn't always Y', 'but that country is commonly known as Y, X isn't commonly known as X', 'yeah it is, here's evidence', then back to step 1. I've demonstrated A) that Taiwan does not have to have been in use by the subject forever (eg. United Kingdom), and B) that it's widely regarded that Taiwan is the common name for the ROC. You seem to forget the answer to one of those points as soon as you shift focus to the latter, and I'm not convinced that your arguments aren't an attempt to filibuster discussion. As such I won't be replying to your concerns beyond this one. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 20:26, 19 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is, when used colloquially and generally, the English word China implies the state AND the political entity attached to it. The native notion of "China" or actually 中国/中國, 大陸, 內地 (Middle Kingdom, Mainland, Inland) only implies the REGION of mainland China, or geographic place including the range of people living in "China". It also implies/includes the "modern culture and life", modern "Chinese identity", Chinese diaspora, Chinese history/culture. However when people speak of "China" in political cases, THEN the word China becomes a "political label" referring to the PRC government (governing the Chinese mainland) and its policies. Otherwise, in normal terms (by everyday people), China is used as a cultural/national/historical identity, not for political distinctions. The colloquial English use of "China" does not help non-natives distinguish between the political implications and the regular "place"/"modern culture" implication. The problem with his article is that the lead section does not address the "over-arching" aspect of "China". China is not only a state governed by the PRC government, it refers to the whole identity of the people living mainland and the identity of the diaspora, as in where they are from and the ancestral background. The political aspects of the name China should NOT be applied to the entire article/name/content. Once you make that direct relation, the political aspect of it becomes pulled into the label, and then it fails to make the clear distinction, which makes the article biased. (I hope this made sense and as a part of the Chinese diaspora, I tried to explain the ideology behind this term. The singular inclusion of the PRC government and having only the PRC being applied in this article is what makes this China label have a problem. The PRC is the political and governing entity of China, but it plays no part in the entire Chinese identity being implied when you use the word China outside of political discussions. This article should not have the political situation blur the identity and distinctions of the real meaning. - M0rphzone (talk) 21:58, 26 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Is that relevant here, given that you consider the primary topic of this article is the People's Republic of China? 42.3.2.237 (talk) 07:53, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Why don't they propose to break it off from the Chinese conventions? They don't consider Taiwan to be part of China, no matter what China may mean. 42.3.2.237 (talk) 11:35, 19 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]