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Deed Poll
Has their name been changed by deed poll (or whatever the equivalent is, and has the transgenderism been confirmed medically? And if not why are they not requirements before changing the name etc?Theofficeprankster (talk) 20:14, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
- Please see the FAQ, Question 4. LFaraone 21:12, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
- (e/c) Re "has their name been changed [...] and if not why are they not requirements before changing the name?": see the FAQ at the top of this page and, for more detailed discussion, peruse this page's many archives, where the questioned has been discussed in detail numerous times.
Re "has the transgenderism been confirmed medically?": yes, Manning has been diagnosed with gender identity disorder, as stated in the first paragraph of the article.
Cheers, -sche (talk) 21:15, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 26 December 2013
The article should say her name is Bradley Edward "Chelsea" Manning. Since she hasn't change her name legally yet. You can use Chelsea in the title though. 76.105.96.92 (talk) 03:39, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
- Your opinion is noted, but this issue is settled for the foreseeable future. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 03:54, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 26 December 2013
I suggest you put all female-specific pronouns in quotation marks. 71.59.58.63 (talk) 21:27, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
- Not done: --Jnorton7558 (talk) 21:29, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
- Can I ask those who keep reverting the removal of this section in what way this proposal does not relate to scare quotes, or how this request can reasonably be seen as in good faith? AlexTiefling (talk) 00:27, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
- Actually, you have it backwards. If you want to pursue this, you'll need to show that the editor was acting in bad faith. Please see WP:AGF in general and also note the following excerpt from the section Accusing others of bad faith,
- "Without clear evidence that the action of another editor is actually in bad faith or harassment, repeatedly alleging bad faith motives could be construed as a personal attack."
- FWIW, it looks like the editor's intent may have been to put quotes around things that don't seem official, like using a name that is not a legal name, as mentioned in the previous section, or using feminine pronouns when the person may be legally a male. I'm just assuming good faith here and speculating what may have been in the editor's mind, and not expressing my opinion of whether the suggested edit is right or wrong. You may have different speculations about what was in the editor's mind. In any case, if there isn't clear evidence of bad faith, then we should assume good faith. --Bob K31416 (talk) 02:22, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
- Actually, you have it backwards. If you want to pursue this, you'll need to show that the editor was acting in bad faith. Please see WP:AGF in general and also note the following excerpt from the section Accusing others of bad faith,
- Can I ask those who keep reverting the removal of this section in what way this proposal does not relate to scare quotes, or how this request can reasonably be seen as in good faith? AlexTiefling (talk) 00:27, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 31 December 2013
Her new middle name is Elizabeth? Where did you get that from? She just signed it Chelsea E. Manning. 76.105.96.92 (talk) 19:16, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
- The source for the middle name Elizabeth comes from this release from Manning's lawyer, found in reference four. Novusuna talk 19:24, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
Why do we have to call Bradley HER. It's confusing.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Wikipedia should at least say "him/her" instead of "her", this guy looks obviously male.
I know some don't want his/her feelings hurt, but sorry, it goes both ways. Bradley is still a man by looking at his picture and it is offensive to me as a male with a feminine build to read "her". It's a disgrace to our country. Give him some honor by calling him what he really is, "a man". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.184.12.249 (talk) 22:00, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
- Agreed. - Boneyard90 (talk) 22:06, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
- There is a difference between a feminine looking man and a trans woman. Chelsea Manning identifies as female, not as a feminine man, and our manual of style says we should respect that. The photo still appears masculine because, as she is currently detained following her conviction, she has not had any opportunity to have a photo taken with her new gender presentation. Novusuna talk 22:08, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
- I agree as well that we should be using both pronouns, I know feelings were crazy at the time because it was causing a widespread media frenzy but feelings set aside it is really confusing to readers here. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 22:18, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
Close?
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I don't understand why this discussion was closed. And it was closed after less than one hour of discussion at that! I thought the comment of the closer was a good response that should be part of the discussion without closing. Could someone explain the reason for closing? --Bob K31416 (talk) 10:59, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
- This isn't closed after an hour of discussion, it is closed after months of discussion, it just seems you haven't seen the discussion yet. The link to the FAQ LFaraone posted above should lead you to the discussions and RfC's if you want to take a further look. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 15:52, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
- The problem is that there was never a consensus reached for the disputed MOS:IDENTITY bit, a number of readers so far have raised confusion issues here so clearly there is a problem. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:13, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
- Then take the matter to Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style as already mentioned. If you disagree with the guideline, the solution is to propose changing the guideline, not to propose disregarding it in this one particular case. —Psychonaut (talk) 00:39, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
- I doubt there is much confusion. Take a look at the section above for example. While the section title claims confusion, the sections content claims offense without a trace of confusion. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 15:30, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
- The only "confusion" would come from the mis-match between the perceived male gender of the person in the photo for this article (Chelsea/Bradley before her announcement) and the female pronouns used in the article itself. This article and it's talk page is not the place to be spelling out all the concepts of gender-identity and trans-issues to everyone who takes issue with the pronouns used. I'd suggest that, if it's causing this much confusion, that referring to a suitable article from this one would help make this concept clearer.
- The problem is that there was never a consensus reached for the disputed MOS:IDENTITY bit, a number of readers so far have raised confusion issues here so clearly there is a problem. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:13, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
- Other "confusion" comes from a loud-minority of people who fully understand the concept, but are unwilling to accept a trans-person and their lifestyle...
- MOS:IDENTITY says to "favour self-designation" on issues of gender identity, so if Chelsea wants to be called Chelsea and considered as a woman, then that's exactly what we should do.--Connelly90[AlbaGuBràth] (talk) 16:06, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
- The first sentence of the OP indicated what the OP thought was a source of confusion for readers, i.e. having a picture of what appears to be a male and referring to that person as a female. Since this article is about a trans woman, there's bound to be some confusion for people who aren't familiar with the concept. I think the OP may just be trying to consider how to serve those people. --Bob K31416 (talk) 16:37, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
- I can definitely see how people could get confused at the perceived mis-match between the person in the picture and the pronouns used; but I don't think this article is the place to explain these complex issues and do them enough justice without getting out-of-hand. A easily-visible link to transgender or something might be useful in this. --Connelly90[AlbaGuBràth] (talk) 16:43, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
- My suggestion wasn't really against transgender lifestyle. It's simply that before the announcement, and certainly at the time of induction into the US Army, Manning identified as male. Not sure how it violates MOS:Identity to refer to Manning as a man when Manning identified as male (during childhood, much of Manning's early military career), and reserve the female pronouns for the Lead, and the portion of the text post-announcement. - Boneyard90 (talk) 17:11, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
- Please review MOS:IDENTITY, bullet 2, sentence 4. LFaraone 18:33, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)Regarding how it violates MOS:IDENTITY, see the part of the second paragraph that says, "This applies in references to any phase of that person's life...".
- There was a large RfC regarding deleting or changing it, Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_148#RfC_on_pronouns_throughout_life. As I recall, there was a slight majority to delete it, but that wasn't considered enough of a consensus so it was kept. --Bob K31416 (talk) 18:38, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
- The numbers given by the closer of the RfC were: 25 Keep, 33 Delete and 10 Change or 29 Keep 38 Delete. See the discussion of the close for more info. --Bob K31416 (talk) 19:13, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
- Bob K31416, if you knew that why would you seek to reopen this discussion here and dispute advice to take it to a more appropriate page? I'm asking because I know you have things to offer but we should also be aware that this page is under specific discretionary sanctions, including that Inappropriate behavior driven by good intentions is still inappropriate. Editors acting in good faith may still be sanctioned when their actions are disruptive. I don't think overturning administrators to re-debate the text of the Manual of Style here on this page is going to lead anywhere constructive (especially when it's started with non-original arguments), and that's why the earlier discussions you either initiated or participated in were closed as non-constructive. But if I'm incorrect about why you would want to have a forum about MOS pronouns here, let me know. __ E L A Q U E A T E 19:18, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
- I think you're misinterpreting my comments. Basically, I was giving links and info about previous discussions at WT:MOS so that editors who wish to pursue changing MOS:IDENTITY would understand what the issue's status is over there. --Bob K31416 (talk) 19:56, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
- But this thread, this one here, was initiated by you to re-open the above discussion solely about pronouns. I don't want to misinterpret you, but I was surprised that you were reverting closes on a page with discretionary sanctions in play. That point seemed like it would have been a better place to suggest the more appropriate place to discuss, rather than opening up another discussion here. It's okay, but I don't think anyone has come up with anything original here. __ E L A Q U E A T E 20:11, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
- You're misinterpreting my comments. I asked, "Could someone explain the reason for closing?" When an editor responded, I didn't dispute the reason given. -Bob K31416 (talk) 20:30, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
- But this thread, this one here, was initiated by you to re-open the above discussion solely about pronouns. I don't want to misinterpret you, but I was surprised that you were reverting closes on a page with discretionary sanctions in play. That point seemed like it would have been a better place to suggest the more appropriate place to discuss, rather than opening up another discussion here. It's okay, but I don't think anyone has come up with anything original here. __ E L A Q U E A T E 20:11, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
- I think you're misinterpreting my comments. Basically, I was giving links and info about previous discussions at WT:MOS so that editors who wish to pursue changing MOS:IDENTITY would understand what the issue's status is over there. --Bob K31416 (talk) 19:56, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
- Bob K31416, if you knew that why would you seek to reopen this discussion here and dispute advice to take it to a more appropriate page? I'm asking because I know you have things to offer but we should also be aware that this page is under specific discretionary sanctions, including that Inappropriate behavior driven by good intentions is still inappropriate. Editors acting in good faith may still be sanctioned when their actions are disruptive. I don't think overturning administrators to re-debate the text of the Manual of Style here on this page is going to lead anywhere constructive (especially when it's started with non-original arguments), and that's why the earlier discussions you either initiated or participated in were closed as non-constructive. But if I'm incorrect about why you would want to have a forum about MOS pronouns here, let me know. __ E L A Q U E A T E 19:18, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
- My suggestion wasn't really against transgender lifestyle. It's simply that before the announcement, and certainly at the time of induction into the US Army, Manning identified as male. Not sure how it violates MOS:Identity to refer to Manning as a man when Manning identified as male (during childhood, much of Manning's early military career), and reserve the female pronouns for the Lead, and the portion of the text post-announcement. - Boneyard90 (talk) 17:11, 6 January 2014 (UTC)