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:That is a good question. The policy that applies here is [[MOS:MULTIPLENAMES]], which says that if someone is widely notable under the previous name, then it should be included in the lead. In fact, Chelsea Manning is used as an example on the policy page itself.--[[User:MattMauler|MattMauler]] ([[User talk:MattMauler|talk]]) 11:22, 3 March 2020 (UTC) |
:That is a good question. The policy that applies here is [[MOS:MULTIPLENAMES]], which says that if someone is widely notable under the previous name, then it should be included in the lead. In fact, Chelsea Manning is used as an example on the policy page itself.--[[User:MattMauler|MattMauler]] ([[User talk:MattMauler|talk]]) 11:22, 3 March 2020 (UTC) |
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::Good question, but during the entire time that Manning was in the Army, leaking classified documents, getting courtmartialed and imprisoned, Manning was a man named Bradley. While that is now a "dead" name, it was by the name "Bradley" that Manning was infamously known, and to remove that name completely from the article would likely cause a good deal of confusion as well as to serve to some extent to separate Chelsea Manning from the crimes committed by Bradley Manning. As I read the article, the only place the name "Bradley" is mentioned is in the very beginning where it states correctly that manning was formerly known as Bradley. Throughout the article, even referring to all the events during the time Manning went by Bradley, the name Chelsea is used, and the pronouns "she" and "her" are used, even though Manning was identified as a man at the time. One mention of the former name, under which Manning became notorious, does not seem rude but rather simply and succinctly stating a fact. [[User:GlassBones|GlassBones]] ([[User talk:GlassBones|talk]]) 19:55, 13 March 2020 (UTC) |
::Good question, but during the entire time that Manning was in the Army, leaking classified documents, getting courtmartialed and imprisoned, Manning was a man named Bradley. While that is now a "dead" name, it was by the name "Bradley" that Manning was infamously known, and to remove that name completely from the article would likely cause a good deal of confusion as well as to serve to some extent to separate Chelsea Manning from the crimes committed by Bradley Manning. As I read the article, the only place the name "Bradley" is mentioned is in the very beginning where it states correctly that manning was formerly known as Bradley. Throughout the article, even referring to all the events during the time Manning went by Bradley, the name Chelsea is used, and the pronouns "she" and "her" are used, even though Manning was identified as a man at the time. One mention of the former name, under which Manning became notorious, does not seem rude but rather simply and succinctly stating a fact. [[User:GlassBones|GlassBones]] ([[User talk:GlassBones|talk]]) 19:55, 13 March 2020 (UTC) |
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:::Also, has Manning officially done a name change to Chelsea? If not, the article should be titled Bradley Manning, and that name used throughout. [[User:GlassBones|GlassBones]] ([[User talk:GlassBones|talk]]) 19:59, 13 March 2020 (UTC) |
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Sex reassignment surgery is relevant to article
On October 20, 2018, User:Rab V reverted my addition of Chelsea Manning's announcement that she had, after years of fighting for it, finally undergone surgery. In his edit summary, Rab V made two points. First, it was "not directly stated in tweet what the surgery is." Any fair reading of Chelsea Manning would confirm that Manning has fought for only one type of surgery: Sex Reassignment Surgery (SRS). Second, Rab V contends that "without secondary source it is difficult to establish how relevant a surgery would be to rest of article." Again, one need merely read this BLP, which mentions SRS four times, to establish that editorial consensus has long recognized the relevance of said surgery to Chelsea Manning. I request renewed discussion to affirm that this latest development is, obviously, about SRS and that it is, just as obviously, relevant to the BLP. KalHolmann (talk) 20:52, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
- Still if it's not immediately obvious the exact nature of the surgery we shouldn't be making assumptions or we could run into OR issues. The surgery may be related to being trans and not be sexual reassignment surgery, for example orchiectomy or breast augmentation. My tendency is to be cautious around BLP issues for people's medical history as well. If it is very notable, it will probably show up in secondary sources that could also clarify the exact surgery since Manning is still often in the news. Might as well wait til then. PS I am not a man and we probably shouldn't gender wikipedia editors as if they are :) Rab V (talk) 21:01, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
- The quote can be run after being led into by a reference to this story from earlier this month that she was to receive "gender transition surgery". Under MOS:LWQ, we can and should skip the wikilink in the quote itself. --Nat Gertler (talk) 21:19, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
- @NatGertler: The Reuters story to which you link is more than two years old (Sep 14, 2016). As such, it is unrelated to this latest development and ought not to be added. KalHolmann (talk) 21:24, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
- Whoops, sorry, the Google News results were listing that as an October 8, 2018 story for some reason. --Nat Gertler (talk) 22:32, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
- @NatGertler: I also reject your reading of MOS:LWQ, which states: "…when linking within quotations, link only to targets that correspond to the meaning clearly intended by the quote's author." I submit that Manning's intended meaning is clear: she's alluding to sex reassignment surgery. KalHolmann (talk) 21:29, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
- I'm not certain which surgery she is referring to exactlty so we are still at an impasse. It seems related to her status as trans but that still could imply several different possible surgeries. My understanding with regards to notability of surgery within the article, the issue that made it notable and widely discussed in the news was the legal fight the DoD had with her. That fight ended when she left their custody so isn't an issue now. My preference would still be for a reliable secondary source to clear up what surgery she had and help us make sure we aren't wading into BLP issues around someone's medical history. Rab V (talk) 00:20, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
- @Rab v: See These. She received SRS. --Sharouser (talk) 16:50, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
- Done. New subsection 8.7 2018 has been added with citations to reliable sources to support this important development in Manning's gender transition, which did not end with her May 2017 release from military prison and that she herself chose to publicize in 2018. NedFausa (talk) 19:49, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
- @Rab v: See These. She received SRS. --Sharouser (talk) 16:50, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
- I'm not certain which surgery she is referring to exactlty so we are still at an impasse. It seems related to her status as trans but that still could imply several different possible surgeries. My understanding with regards to notability of surgery within the article, the issue that made it notable and widely discussed in the news was the legal fight the DoD had with her. That fight ended when she left their custody so isn't an issue now. My preference would still be for a reliable secondary source to clear up what surgery she had and help us make sure we aren't wading into BLP issues around someone's medical history. Rab V (talk) 00:20, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
- @NatGertler: The Reuters story to which you link is more than two years old (Sep 14, 2016). As such, it is unrelated to this latest development and ought not to be added. KalHolmann (talk) 21:24, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
- The quote can be run after being led into by a reference to this story from earlier this month that she was to receive "gender transition surgery". Under MOS:LWQ, we can and should skip the wikilink in the quote itself. --Nat Gertler (talk) 21:19, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
Section headings for footnotes & bibliography
I propose the following.
- The existing "Citations" heading be renamed "Footnotes". (In most articles it would be called "References", but I think that is also not quite right here). In some cases the entries are brief citations (e.g. "Nicks 2012, pp. 237, 246"), in other cases they comprise full references ("Manning, January 29, 2013, p. 2."), and in yet other cases they are instead notes (e.g. "Note: WikiLeaks tweeted on January 8, 2010, that [...]"). But in all cases they are indeed footnotes.
- The existing "References" heading be renamed "Bibliography". While the entries in this section are indeed references, they do not comprise all of the references used for the article, contrary to what may be expected from the existing heading. A bibliography is generally understood as a more concise listing of the most pertinent source materials and/or recommended resources for further reading. Given the existing heading "Further reading" in a following section, readers should readily understand that the former meaning of bibliography is intended, not the latter meaning.
The Manual of Style is not prescriptive on this matter. —DIV (1.129.111.49 (talk) 06:38, 11 May 2019 (UTC))
- IMO the two "Note:"s should be made to use <ref name="foobar" group="note">, and put into a "Footnotes" or "Notes" section. Then the "Citations" section could be left as-is or renamed "References" if the section currently called "References" were renamed to "Bibliography" as you propose (or to "Further reading" as I have seen in some articles). -sche (talk) 23:23, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
Section 5.9 needs to be re-worded
The line "as Daniel Domscheit-Berg had previously done" seems to suggest that CM stated this line she die not and is totally separate and hardly relevant as DDB is not a USA citizen, is not in the US and was not subpoenaed, an international request and immunity for prosecution agreement does not constitute anything close to the same thing. Needs to be deleted immediately2404:4408:205A:4B00:4D43:12DF:80AE:4C08 (talk)
Please add to the page ...
See also
— Preceding unsigned comment added by IP address (talk) date (UTC)
- Done NedFausa (talk) 23:02, 24 February 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks.--2604:2000:E010:1100:E918:9D3D:D206:8875 (talk) 03:01, 25 February 2020 (UTC)
Deadname
Although she was indeed known by it, is it not at least mildly rude to mention her deadname? RooinMahmood07 (talk) 10:47, 3 March 2020 (UTC)
- That is a good question. The policy that applies here is MOS:MULTIPLENAMES, which says that if someone is widely notable under the previous name, then it should be included in the lead. In fact, Chelsea Manning is used as an example on the policy page itself.--MattMauler (talk) 11:22, 3 March 2020 (UTC)
- Good question, but during the entire time that Manning was in the Army, leaking classified documents, getting courtmartialed and imprisoned, Manning was a man named Bradley. While that is now a "dead" name, it was by the name "Bradley" that Manning was infamously known, and to remove that name completely from the article would likely cause a good deal of confusion as well as to serve to some extent to separate Chelsea Manning from the crimes committed by Bradley Manning. As I read the article, the only place the name "Bradley" is mentioned is in the very beginning where it states correctly that manning was formerly known as Bradley. Throughout the article, even referring to all the events during the time Manning went by Bradley, the name Chelsea is used, and the pronouns "she" and "her" are used, even though Manning was identified as a man at the time. One mention of the former name, under which Manning became notorious, does not seem rude but rather simply and succinctly stating a fact. GlassBones (talk) 19:55, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
- Also, has Manning officially done a name change to Chelsea? If not, the article should be titled Bradley Manning, and that name used throughout. GlassBones (talk) 19:59, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
- Good question, but during the entire time that Manning was in the Army, leaking classified documents, getting courtmartialed and imprisoned, Manning was a man named Bradley. While that is now a "dead" name, it was by the name "Bradley" that Manning was infamously known, and to remove that name completely from the article would likely cause a good deal of confusion as well as to serve to some extent to separate Chelsea Manning from the crimes committed by Bradley Manning. As I read the article, the only place the name "Bradley" is mentioned is in the very beginning where it states correctly that manning was formerly known as Bradley. Throughout the article, even referring to all the events during the time Manning went by Bradley, the name Chelsea is used, and the pronouns "she" and "her" are used, even though Manning was identified as a man at the time. One mention of the former name, under which Manning became notorious, does not seem rude but rather simply and succinctly stating a fact. GlassBones (talk) 19:55, 13 March 2020 (UTC)