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:, which is clearly c), a previously unpublished interpretation of a) and b), aimed at advancing your position. If this isn't origininal research, ''what'' is?? [[User:Sciurinæ|Sciurinæ]] 20:26, 21 May 2006 (UTC) |
:, which is clearly c), a previously unpublished interpretation of a) and b), aimed at advancing your position. If this isn't origininal research, ''what'' is?? [[User:Sciurinæ|Sciurinæ]] 20:26, 21 May 2006 (UTC) |
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Nope it isn't original research. That would be for example claiming Poles weren't persecuted by Prussia. Writing that claims that Gdańsk was founded by Germans is controversial isn't original research because it falls under e ''(1) makes descriptive claims the accuracy of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable adult without specialist knowledge,''. |
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Of course you might be an exception, since IIRC you viewed Germanisation as positive for example. But yes claims that Gdansk was founded by Germans would be very controversial to Poles, not to mention untrue. |
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--[[User:Molobo|Molobo]] 20:31, 21 May 2006 (UTC) |
Revision as of 20:31, 21 May 2006
Factual dispute is about numbers. NPOV - article lacs any information about opposition to build C.A.G. in Berlin. I'm not going to revert war now :( 81.27.192.19 19:46, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- the article as it stands now doesn't seem NPOV to me... I'm going to remove the tag and see what happens. Feco 05:34, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Migrated from Erika Steinbach
Hi there. I recently made a cleanup of the the article on Erika Steinbach and noticed the tag on this page. Fine with me, here's the info migrated from that article. Feel free to add it to this article. Halibutt 04:10, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
Opponents of the proposed form of Centre object to emphasizing only German suffering; others see it as an inappropriate counter-balance to the Holocaust memorial. In the petition "For a critical and enlightened debate about the past" historians expressed concerns the centre would establish and popularize a one-sided image of the past, without historical context. Many well-known European intellectuals and politicians, including Germans Günter Grass and Hans-Dietrich Genscher, in 2003 expressed support for a centre devoted to all expelled during the 20th century, located in some place connected with expulsions, e.g. Wrocław (Breslau).
However, while Steinbach claims the Centre will represent the suffering of other nations as well, she believes that it is an internal German affair and rejects the proposal of creating the Centre under international control. "All victims of genocide and expulsion need a place in our hearts and in the historical memory. Human rights are indivisible," the Centre points out on its official home page. The Centre Against Expulsions have been supported by many human rights activists, historians, political scientists and politicians, including first UN High Commissioner for Human Rights José Ayala-Lasso , Nobel laureate Imre Kertész, Joachim Gauck, former Austrian crown prince Otto von Habsburg, Guido Knopp, György Konrád, Alfred M. de Zayas and others. The Bavarian Prime Minister and leader of CSU Edmund Stoiber argued that "the place for a museum showing the dreadful fate of expelled Germans is in the German capital". The CDU/CSU have decided to build the center and Chancellor Angela Merkel has explicitly declared her support.
German Foreign minister Joschka Fischer commented on Steinbach, and her initiative for a Centre Against Expulsions to ...have caused serious damage to German-Polish relations. Not amongst extremist nationalist forces that do exist in Poland, but amongst old friends and major agents for reconciliation between our two countries.
Among the German and Polish public, dispute has sometimes been fierce. Remainders of past mass murder of Poles by Germans have surfaced. For instance, the Polish newspaper Wprost published a cover photo-montage of Erika Steinbach in an SS uniform (photo). However, the then Polish Prime Minister Leszek Miller condemned this and apologized to the German Chancellor. As part of the same controversy, the Federation of Expellees and Erika Steinbach sued the German journalist Gabriele Lesser for defamation related to an article published on September 19, 2003, in the daily Kieler Nachrichten. The Federation largely won the case against Lesser.
==Exhibition on expulsions in 2006==
Steinbach's organisation will hold an exhibition on expulsions in the Berlin Kronprinzenpalais for 3 months during the fall of 2006. The exhibition will show expulsions from the genocide on the Armenians until the ethnic cleansing in Yugoslavia in the 1990s. It will deal with the expulsion of Germans (a major exhibition on this was also held in 2005 in Bonn), and, for the first time in Germany, also on the expulsion of Poles from what is now Ukraine and Belarus after 1945.
Website
First of all, I don't think there is a need for any focus on "its" webpage. In general the article subjects' webpages seem to me to be rather unneccessary for inclusion. And if there was any need, (why would there be?) do not cherry-pick aspects and write a personal argumentation, especially not if you, Molobo, complain about original research less than one and a half hours later elsewhere. Sciurinæ 13:05, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
All the statements can be found on the Center Website, I see no reason not to include them as they are highly out of the ordinary when it comes to mainstream history
--Molobo 17:32, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
- Well, I won't waste my time on commenting on the irrelevance and bias you suggest be imposed but only on No original research.
- WP:NOR:
Articles may not contain any unpublished theories, data, statements, concepts, arguments, or ideas; or any new analysis or synthesis of published data, statements, concepts, arguments, or ideas that serves to advance a position.
- Molobo, this is a clear textbook example of original research. This case is even easier to understand than Wikipedia:No_original_research#Example_of_a_new_synthesis_of_published_material_serving_to_advance_a_position.
- You have two facts, a) what the website states and b) what a more reliable source states. So you bring in your interpretation, c), namely that a) is wrong.
- [allright, in actual fact I'm not so sure whether you really stated what the website read
- (eg. 460,000 was not the only entry for Poles.
- [1] also contains two more: 800,000- 900,000 Poles, Ukrainians and Jews were expelled in February 1940 to June 1941, and 1,530,000 Poles were expelled in the Autumn of 1944 - early 1949. So all tghe three together, the number is somewhere in the area of yours.]
the number is somewhere in the area of yours. No it isn't. These are Poles deported by Soviets, not by Germany. --Molobo 19:29, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
- Anyway, let's just pretend the above scenario was true. Compare that to Wikipedia:No_original_research#Example_of_a_new_synthesis_of_published_material_serving_to_advance_a_position. Wouldn't you say that this case is much more straight-forward? Sciurinæ 18:50, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
It's no synthesis. Just a sample of statements from the Center. Please provide links in English I don't speak German. --Molobo 19:27, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
- You added the following text in bold letters.
- "All victims of genocide and expulsion need a place in our hearts and in the historical memory. Human rights are indivisible," the Centre points out on its official home page. The Centre's homepage however contains several statements and data that is inaccurate and controversial:
- , which is clearly c), a previously unpublished interpretation of a) and b), aimed at advancing your position. If this isn't origininal research, what is?? Sciurinæ 20:26, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
Nope it isn't original research. That would be for example claiming Poles weren't persecuted by Prussia. Writing that claims that Gdańsk was founded by Germans is controversial isn't original research because it falls under e (1) makes descriptive claims the accuracy of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable adult without specialist knowledge,. Of course you might be an exception, since IIRC you viewed Germanisation as positive for example. But yes claims that Gdansk was founded by Germans would be very controversial to Poles, not to mention untrue. --Molobo 20:31, 21 May 2006 (UTC)